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2003-09-07 08:26:09-07:00 - How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (ksins5@hotmail.com)


I've been wondering as to which direction the writers will take when it comes to developing Angel/Wes friendship. Last season we saw them going back together. Will that be temporary? Will Wes be angry if he finds out about the mindwipe? Or will he be supportive of Angel's decision? And if other people haven't found out about it, will he try to cover up for Angel or will he tell the others? Also, I remember what Justine said in "Deep Down": "one day he'll turn on you". Do you think Wes' loyalty towards Angel will one day backfired on him? How about from Angel's POV? I am surprised that the writers still haven't shown Angel having a craving for Wes' blood considering Wes donated his blood to revive Angel. If Angel drinking Connor's blood can cause him to want to eat the baby, isn't it possible that him drinking Wes' blood may tempt him to drink more human blood? (I'm personally a fun of that scene in "Orpheus" where Angel can't refuse to drink the blood from the dead man. Very disturbing and yet realistic as well). How about the leadership issue? Who's the defacto leader in the gang? Will it be Angel or Wes or will they share leadership position to make things easy for the gang? And how is this more or less affected by the mindwipe? Is that mean the mindwipe goes back to the time when Wes was still a leader of AI? How'll they explain his alienation or his throat slashing? CSinclair

2003-09-07 12:20:03-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (Maureen Goldman <inkslinger@FOGsunshine.net>)


>ksins5@hotmail.com (CSinclair) wrote: >I've been wondering as to which direction the writers will take when >it comes to developing Angel/Wes friendship. Last season we saw them >going back together. Will that be temporary? Will Wes be angry if he >finds out about the mindwipe? Or will he be supportive of Angel's >decision? And if other people haven't found out about it, will he try >to cover up for Angel or will he tell the others? If there was no Connor, then Wes never went on the path to hell that is paved with good intentions - i.e, no baby to rescue and accidentally consign to a hell dimension. He should be cheerier. If he finds things out, he'll deal with them from a different perspective. Heck, I'm waiting to see Darla come through the door.

2003-09-07 22:39:07-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (awilliamsaus@netscape.net)


"Griffin Mills" <khayes101@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<h3S6b.5867$p61.2366@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com>... > those or good points...ofcourse they may have altered memories like with > Dawn...maybe Wes and Angel had a fallout over who uses the bathroom longer > in the morning and Wes ended up getting his throat slit and all that angst > is still there....hmmm this is interesting... It's interesting you mentioned that because if the world is 'altered', wouldn't such alterations requires Angel to be a part of the thing that is altered as well? Otherwise, how will he keep up with the lie? I mean it's hard enough on BTVS when everyone memories are altered (all of the Scoobies ended up finding out that Dawn is not real at the end of the day). This kind of alteration will have a hitch the minute Angel slips up when talking to Wes about Cordelia, for example. Imagine the complexities.

2003-09-08 02:45:33+00:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (Griffin Mills <khayes101@prodigy.net>)


those or good points...ofcourse they may have altered memories like with Dawn...maybe Wes and Angel had a fallout over who uses the bathroom longer in the morning and Wes ended up getting his throat slit and all that angst is still there....hmmm this is interesting... "Maureen Goldman" <inkslinger@FOGsunshine.net> wrote in message news:a5vmlv8lcgagofg95k2coegormgh5hju17@4ax.com... > >ksins5@hotmail.com (CSinclair) wrote: > >I've been wondering as to which direction the writers will take when > >it comes to developing Angel/Wes friendship. Last season we saw them > >going back together. Will that be temporary? Will Wes be angry if he > >finds out about the mindwipe? Or will he be supportive of Angel's > >decision? And if other people haven't found out about it, will he try > >to cover up for Angel or will he tell the others? > > If there was no Connor, then Wes never went on the path to hell that > is paved with good intentions - i.e, no baby to rescue and > accidentally consign to a hell dimension. He should be cheerier. If he > finds things out, he'll deal with them from a different perspective. > > Heck, I'm waiting to see Darla come through the door. >

2003-09-08 21:58:04+00:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (bruhman438@aol.com)


>It's interesting you mentioned that because if the world is 'altered', >wouldn't such alterations requires Angel to be a part of the thing >that is altered as well? Otherwise, how will he keep up with the lie? > I mean it's hard enough on BTVS when everyone memories are altered >(all of the Scoobies ended up finding out that Dawn is not real at the >end of the day). This kind of alteration will have a hitch the minute >Angel slips up when talking to Wes about Cordelia, for example. >Imagine the complexities. > > > > > > Oh that's an easy one to solve. Just don't mention Cordelia at all. I'm pretty sure that's the plan anyway, so.. it'll all work out. Yay! P.S. of course I think that'd be ridiculous to do, I think we all know I want Cordelia's memory to stay alive more than most, but like many have pointed out, "it doesn't progress the current storyline to mention Cordelia.. at all.. EVER." so.... Oh well. Cordelia is just 1 example, but I'm sure they will ignore PLENTY of other plot points that would make the memory erase more complex. Events from the past 2 seasons might not even be mentioned AT ALL. It might be like a whooole new show... yea great...

2003-09-09 01:17:23-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (ksins5@hotmail.com)


Maureen Goldman <inkslinger@FOGsunshine.net> wrote in message news:<a5vmlv8lcgagofg95k2coegormgh5hju17@4ax.com>... > If there was no Connor, then Wes never went on the path to hell that > is paved with good intentions - i.e, no baby to rescue and > accidentally consign to a hell dimension. He should be cheerier. That's what confused me though. At the end of "Home", he looked as broody as Angel was. So something must have caused the broodiness. CSinclair

2003-09-09 04:18:19-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (wolviegrl@yahoo.com)


ksins5@hotmail.com (CSinclair) wrote in message news:<e1a3dcc6.0309070726.52e695b5@posting.google.com>... > I've been wondering as to which direction the writers will take when > it comes to developing Angel/Wes friendship. At this rate, they won't. There's no Angel/Wes friendship. Because this is not "Angel: the series" that we used to know. In fact, the past 4 years never existed. This is a 'brand new show' as everyone pointed out. In a typical ME storyline of yesteryear, Angel and Wes will act as if they don't know each other unless when discussing about work or how to defeat the monster of the week. Never mind that the original premise of this show was for Angel to develop a closer connection to humans. Especially those that he cares for. ------------------------- wolviegirl

2003-09-09 07:30:45-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (awilliamsaus@netscape.net)


bruhman438@aol.com (Bruh Man 438) wrote in message news:<20030908175804.19334.00000421@mb-m20.aol.com>... > Oh that's an easy one to solve. Just don't mention Cordelia at all. I'm pretty > sure that's the plan anyway, so.. it'll all work out. Yay! I'll be disappointed if they go that way. If they dare to go like this, they should be as creative in creating a solution out of the problem they produced to begin with. > but like many have pointed out, > "it doesn't progress the current storyline to mention Cordelia.. at all.. > EVER." so.... Oh well. Cordelia is just 1 example, but I'm sure they will > ignore PLENTY of other plot points that would make the memory erase more > complex. Events from the past 2 seasons might not even be mentioned AT ALL. It > might be like a whooole new show... yea great... Which is why I don't think they should do it. In fact, it'll confuse new viewers if they do this because they have no idea how these people joined the law company and their motivation to begin with. anna

2003-09-09 22:07:16-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (dxgarten@ignmail.com)


ksins5@hotmail.com (CSinclair) wrote in message news:<e1a3dcc6.0309070726.52e695b5@posting.google.com>... > I've been wondering as to which direction the writers will take when > it comes to developing Angel/Wes friendship. Last season we saw them > going back together. Will that be temporary? Will Wes be angry if he > finds out about the mindwipe? Or will he be supportive of Angel's > decision? And if other people haven't found out about it, will he try > to cover up for Angel or will he tell the others? If only we're that lucky to get that sort of interesting storyline. I'll kill to see the scenario you described above (both leaders covering it up from the others) but I am not holding my breath. > Also, I remember what Justine said in "Deep Down": "one day he'll turn > on you". Do you think Wes' loyalty towards Angel will one day > backfired on him? Judging by how the writers have the knack for destroying every single friendship the main character have with their close friends or between the group itself (Angel/Cordelia, Cordelia/Wes, Wes/Gunn), I believe it's only time before they got to Angel/Wes friendship. It seems cool these days to show the destruction of friendship that a character has developed for a couple of years with another character. > How about the leadership issue? Who's the defacto leader in the gang? > Will it be Angel or Wes or will they share leadership position to > make things easy for the gang? And how is this more or less affected > by the mindwipe? Is that mean the mindwipe goes back to the time when > Wes was still a leader of AI? How'll they explain his alienation or > his throat slashing? I hope that Wes will be the one who unravels the mindwipe but hopefully he'll understand why Angel does it since he's the one who caused all of it to begin with. At least that'll give him something to do. But that's assuming they actually want to revisit the Connor storyline as opposed to pretend that it never happened to begin with.

2003-09-10 11:02:17-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (himiko@animail.net)


dxgarten@ignmail.com (Daniel Garten) wrote in message news:<49cf8df3.0309092107.570329fa@posting.google.com>... > ksins5@hotmail.com (CSinclair) wrote in message news:<e1a3dcc6.0309070726.52e695b5@posting.google.com>... > > I've been wondering as to which direction the writers will take when > > it comes to developing Angel/Wes friendship. Last season we saw them > > going back together. Will that be temporary? Will Wes be angry if he > > finds out about the mindwipe? Or will he be supportive of Angel's > > decision? And if other people haven't found out about it, will he try > > to cover up for Angel or will he tell the others? > > If only we're that lucky to get that sort of interesting storyline. > I'll kill to see the scenario you described above (both leaders > covering it up from the others) but I am not holding my breath. Depends on how it's handled. If it's just Wes and Angel brought together by their shared secret, pretty dreary and doesn't really carry on the story line any more than just Angel knowing did...although I admit it has nice slashy potential. If it just leads to greater and greater deceptions by both Wes and Angel, that's really still the same story it would have been with just Angel too, but this does allow for more variety. > > > How about the leadership issue? Who's the defacto leader in the gang? > > Will it be Angel or Wes or will they share leadership position to > > make things easy for the gang? And how is this more or less affected > > by the mindwipe? Is that mean the mindwipe goes back to the time when > > Wes was still a leader of AI? How'll they explain his alienation or > > his throat slashing? > > I hope that Wes will be the one who unravels the mindwipe but > hopefully he'll understand why Angel does it since he's the one who > caused all of it to begin with. At least that'll give him something > to do. But that's assuming they actually want to revisit the Connor > storyline as opposed to pretend that it never happened to begin with. If Wes understands, he still has nothing to do...except be a nice, loyal sidekick which is totally out of character and a total waste of AtS's most complex character. Oh, I can see Wes understanding what Angel did intellectually. I can even see him maintaining the cover-up and trying to deal with the leadership issue in his own mind. But if he's still Wes and not podWes, he'll fail. Leadership is a big security and self-esteem thing for him. himiko

2003-09-10 19:17:13-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (dxgarten@ignmail.com)


himiko@animail.net (himiko) wrote in message news:<c7902983.0309101002.6433ef26@posting.google.com>... > Depends on how it's handled. If it's just Wes and Angel brought > together by their shared secret, pretty dreary and doesn't really > carry on the story line any more than just Angel knowing > did...although I admit it has nice slashy potential. If it just leads > to greater and greater deceptions by both Wes and Angel, that's really > still the same story it would have been with just Angel too, but this > does allow for more variety. > If Wes understands, he still has nothing to do...except be a nice, > loyal sidekick which is totally out of character and a total waste of > AtS's most complex character. Oh, I can see Wes understanding what > Angel did intellectually. I can even see him maintaining the cover-up > and trying to deal with the leadership issue in his own mind. But if > he's still Wes and not podWes, he'll fail. Leadership is a big > security and self-esteem thing for him. Whatever. Not that I thought it'll ever happened anyway. But at any rate, it'll at least give him some story.

2003-09-11 02:02:16-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (awilliamsaus@netscape.net)


himiko@animail.net (himiko) wrote in message news:<c7902983.0309101002.6433ef26@posting.google.com>... > Depends on how it's handled. If it's just Wes and Angel brought > together by their shared secret, pretty dreary and doesn't really > carry on the story line any more than just Angel knowing > did...although I admit it has nice slashy potential. I think it will. It'll be nice that for once the two are actually have to put their heads together to come up with cover ups. They always have different ways of approaching things that it'll be interesting to see how the two reconcile the knowledge of the mindwipe. Of course, there will have to be consequences from such cover-ups that will force both Angel and Wes to deal with it together. That's the part that will make it interesting. Plus as you said, it has a nice slashy potential ;) > If it just leads > to greater and greater deceptions by both Wes and Angel, that's really > still the same story it would have been with just Angel too, but this > does allow for more variety. Look, the thing is, sooner or later, the mindwipe will be unveiled anyway. It doesn't make sense if it's not. Fabrication of reality never worked that well before, definitely not in the case of Dawn. And if that one unravels, this one will too - sooner or later - unless they want to make the storyline feels disjointed from last season. So, I figure may as well have some fun by showing both Angel and Wes struggling to keep up with the deception. Plus we have seen stories of Angel being isolated before and Wes being isolated before but not both of them feeling as if they have something to hide from the others. And again, as you said, it'll allow for more variety. > If Wes understands, he still has nothing to do...except be a nice, > loyal sidekick which is totally out of character and a total waste of > AtS's most complex character. I disagree. I actually think it's very in character for Wes and it won't waste the complexity of his character. If anything, it'll enhance it. He loves Angel (no, not that way although I wouldn't mind if they do it that way) and very loyal to him even after he tried to kill him. I will believe it if he goes along with such deception. He's the sort who can keep a secret if he wants to. And the attempt to do cover up itself will give him something to do. > Oh, I can see Wes understanding what > Angel did intellectually. I can even see him maintaining the cover-up > and trying to deal with the leadership issue in his own mind. But if > he's still Wes and not podWes, he'll fail. Failing in what sense? Maintaining the cover up? That's what will make the story interesting wouldn't it? There's a possibility that both leaders have to face up to their lies. And there's a possibility that Gunn may take over the leadership because of it. anna

2003-09-12 01:41:52-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (himiko@animail.net)


awilliamsaus@netscape.net (Anna Williams) wrote in message news:<8d46ad4a.0309110102.57d63fc2@posting.google.com>... > himiko@animail.net (himiko) wrote in message news:<c7902983.0309101002.6433ef26@posting.google.com>... > > If it just leads > > to greater and greater deceptions by both Wes and Angel, that's really > > still the same story it would have been with just Angel too, but this > > does allow for more variety. > > Look, the thing is, sooner or later, the mindwipe will be unveiled > anyway. It doesn't make sense if it's not. Fabrication of reality > never worked that well before, definitely not in the case of Dawn. > And if that one unravels, this one will too - sooner or later - unless > they want to make the storyline feels disjointed from last season. That's exactly what I fear. They did this with Dawn, actually. She was fine in S5, but after that her keyness just got forgotten. It had no further ramifications at all...and she became a dead weight, dramatically speaking. They could easily do the same with Connor, and they'd have the added benefit that the character wouldn't always be standing around with nothing to do. > So, I figure may as well have some fun by showing both Angel and Wes > struggling to keep up with the deception. Plus we have seen stories > of Angel being isolated before and Wes being isolated before but not > both of them feeling as if they have something to hide from the > others. And again, as you said, it'll allow for more variety. Yeah, but not that much variety. ME can do better than this. > > If Wes understands, he still has nothing to do...except be a nice, > > loyal sidekick which is totally out of character and a total waste of > > AtS's most complex character. > > I disagree. I actually think it's very in character for Wes and it > won't waste the complexity of his character. If anything, it'll > enhance it. He loves Angel (no, not that way although I wouldn't mind > if they do it that way) and very loyal to him even after he tried to > kill him. I will believe it if he goes along with such deception. > He's the sort who can keep a secret if he wants to. And the attempt > to do cover up itself will give him something to do. Sorry. Should have specified. I don't doubt Wes's loyalty or ability to keep a secret. But he has major leadership and security issues. If he has to play sidekick, he'll be a seething mass of resentment faster than you can say sweeps. > > Oh, I can see Wes understanding what > > Angel did intellectually. I can even see him maintaining the cover-up > > and trying to deal with the leadership issue in his own mind. But if > > he's still Wes and not podWes, he'll fail. > > Failing in what sense? Maintaining the cover up? That's what will > make the story interesting wouldn't it? There's a possibility that > both leaders have to face up to their lies. And there's a possibility > that Gunn may take over the leadership because of it. > Now, that would be interesting, especially since Gunn isn't going to be 100% reliable any longer. himiko

2003-09-12 08:41:22-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (kenm47@ix.netcom.com)


Maureen Goldman <inkslinger@FOGsunshine.net> wrote in message news:<a5vmlv8lcgagofg95k2coegormgh5hju17@4ax.com>... > >ksins5@hotmail.com (CSinclair) wrote: > >I've been wondering as to which direction the writers will take when > >it comes to developing Angel/Wes friendship. Last season we saw them > >going back together. Will that be temporary? Will Wes be angry if he > >finds out about the mindwipe? Or will he be supportive of Angel's > >decision? And if other people haven't found out about it, will he try > >to cover up for Angel or will he tell the others? > > If there was no Connor, then Wes never went on the path to hell that > is paved with good intentions - i.e, no baby to rescue and > accidentally consign to a hell dimension. He should be cheerier. If he > finds things out, he'll deal with them from a different perspective. > > Heck, I'm waiting to see Darla come through the door. Maybe Wes will remember where he left his glasses? Ken :-)

2003-09-14 05:18:04-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (awilliamsaus@netscape.net)


himiko@animail.net (himiko) wrote in message news:<c7902983.0309120041.28f71353@posting.google.com>... > That's exactly what I fear. They did this with Dawn, actually. She > was fine in S5, but after that her keyness just got forgotten. It had > no further ramifications at all...and she became a dead weight, > dramatically speaking. They could easily do the same with Connor, and > they'd have the added benefit that the character wouldn't always be > standing around with nothing to do. I think just because the mindwipe is unraveled, doesn't mean that Connor has to stick around in the show. The writers can decide to write Connor to find out about what Angel did but the two managed to agree that they're better off away from each other but Connor is welcome to visit Angel from time to time. It'll give me a bit satisfaction in knowing that the writers don't leave it dangling as it is now. > Sorry. Should have specified. I don't doubt Wes's loyalty or ability > to keep a secret. But he has major leadership and security issues. > If he has to play sidekick, he'll be a seething mass of resentment > faster than you can say sweeps. But that doesn't mean he has to play a sidekick. In fact, judging from what I understand from the sides, the two may do a share leadership. If Angel and Wes are to keep this secret from the rest of the FangGang, then they'll do it as two leaders as opposed to one leader and a sidekick. They're better as leader when they put their brains together anyway. Angel tends to be compulsive and Wes tends to overthink everything. Angel doesn't believe much in prophecies, Wes is easily mislead by them. Together, they actually balance one another. > > Failing in what sense? Maintaining the cover up? That's what will > > make the story interesting wouldn't it? There's a possibility that > > both leaders have to face up to their lies. And there's a possibility > > that Gunn may take over the leadership because of it. > > > Now, that would be interesting, especially since Gunn isn't going to > be 100% reliable any longer. Exactly. Imagine the two doing this dual leadership nicely but thanks to their lies, they have to step down and hand over the leadership and power to Gunn, who may or may not be reliable any longer. It's going to be interesting to say the least. anna

2003-09-14 14:58:23-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (himiko@animail.net)


awilliamsaus@netscape.net (Anna Williams) wrote in message news:<8d46ad4a.0309140418.16161ce0@posting.google.com>... > himiko@animail.net (himiko) wrote in message news:<c7902983.0309120041.28f71353@posting.google.com>... > > But that doesn't mean he has to play a sidekick. In fact, judging > from what I understand from the sides, the two may do a share > leadership. If Angel and Wes are to keep this secret from the rest of > the FangGang, then they'll do it as two leaders as opposed to one > leader and a sidekick. They're better as leader when they put their > brains together anyway. Angel tends to be compulsive and Wes tends to > overthink everything. Angel doesn't believe much in prophecies, Wes > is easily mislead by them. Together, they actually balance one > another. Which is why the possibility fails to thrill me. It sounds sweetly harmonious and dull as ditchwater. Oh, it would be OK if it didn't last for more than a few episodes, but if it lasts any longer, I want to see major friction or a seething, resentful sidekick. > Exactly. Imagine the two doing this dual leadership nicely but thanks > to their lies, they have to step down and hand over the leadership and > power to Gunn, who may or may not be reliable any longer. It's going > to be interesting to say the least. That would be fine for the not lasting too long scenario. I'd like that. himiko

2003-09-18 02:26:39-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (ksins5@hotmail.com)


himiko@animail.net (himiko) wrote in message news:<c7902983.0309141358.5869312f@posting.google.com>... > Which is why the possibility fails to thrill me. It sounds sweetly > harmonious and dull as ditchwater. Oh, it would be OK if it didn't > last for more than a few episodes, but if it lasts any longer, I want > to see major friction or a seething, resentful sidekick. Hmm, I don't see why Wes will want to be a seething, resentful sidekick again after already doing so last year. That'll be a repetition. I agree with the other poster that if anything, with so many possible antagonism (Angel vs Spike or Angel vs Gunn) it'll be nice to see Angel and Wes being supportive of each other. Not all good storylines are created through friction type. CSinclair

2003-09-18 10:18:57-07:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (Maureen Goldman <inkslinger@FOGsunshine.net>)


>ksins5@hotmail.com (CSinclair) wrote: >Hmm, I don't see why Wes will want to be a seething, resentful >sidekick again after already doing so last year. That'll be a >repetition. I agree with the other poster that if anything, with so >many possible antagonism (Angel vs Spike or Angel vs Gunn) it'll be >nice to see Angel and Wes being supportive of each other. Not all >good storylines are created through friction type. I don't see Wes having reason to be seething or resentful if there was no Connor. He should revert to much the same emotional place he was before the birth. Although he might have experienced other trauma during the intervening time, I don't know how complicated they'll want to be regarding an expired period. I suppose they might indicate a rift because Wes became involved with Lilah.

2003-09-18 13:54:39+00:00 - Re: How will the writers explore Angel/Wes relationship this season? - (Tammy Stephanie Davis <tsdnospam@zektor.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>)


CSinclair <ksins5@hotmail.com> wrote: : himiko@animail.net (himiko) wrote in message news:<c7902983.0309141358.5869312f@posting.google.com>... :> Which is why the possibility fails to thrill me. It sounds sweetly :> harmonious and dull as ditchwater. Oh, it would be OK if it didn't :> last for more than a few episodes, but if it lasts any longer, I want :> to see major friction or a seething, resentful sidekick. : Hmm, I don't see why Wes will want to be a seething, resentful : sidekick again after already doing so last year. That'll be a : repetition. I agree with the other poster that if anything, with so : many possible antagonism (Angel vs Spike or Angel vs Gunn) it'll be : nice to see Angel and Wes being supportive of each other. Not all : good storylines are created through friction type. Indeed. In fact, I think ME went to the well too many times in the creating storylines through personal antagonism/angst/whatever angle during season 4. It made some of the episodes tiresome and sometimes unbearable to watch.