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2003-04-02 10:01:43-05:00 - Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


David Greenwalt has likened vampires to alcoholics. Angel is the AA member who has acknowledged his victims, apologized for his past, and given up on the bottle. Spike is the alcoholic who thinks just one drink won't make any difference. He believes that he can indulge in his obsession and still control it. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-02 11:42:03-08:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (metrix007@yahoo.com)


"DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com>... > David Greenwalt has likened vampires to alcoholics. Angel is the AA member > who has acknowledged his victims, apologized for his past, and given up on > the bottle. > > Spike is the alcoholic who thinks just one drink won't make any difference. > He believes that he can indulge in his obsession and still control it. What an idiot analogy. Anyway.

2003-04-02 11:45:13-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (Morpheus <carterr@miskatonic.edu>)


"DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in message news:-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com... > David Greenwalt has likened vampires to alcoholics. Angel is the AA member > who has acknowledged his victims, apologized for his past, and given up on > the bottle. > > Spike is the alcoholic who thinks just one drink won't make any difference. > He believes that he can indulge in his obsession and still control it. They used that same analogy on Forever Knight but it doesn't work really. Vampires need blood to survive, alcoholics won't die if their alcohol is taken away from then.

2003-04-02 11:55:43-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message news:b6evv6$vma$3@blue.rahul.net... > In article <-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com>, > DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >David Greenwalt has likened vampires to alcoholics. Angel is the AA member > >who has acknowledged his victims, apologized for his past, and given up on > >the bottle. > > > >Spike is the alcoholic who thinks just one drink won't make any difference. > >He believes that he can indulge in his obsession and still control it. > > In a way, yes, but the show doesn't do substance abuse metaphors very well. Actually, I don't think it is a bad metaphor. It takes some real imagination to apply it to the real world. I think too many viewers want the metaphors to be more literal, which pretty much defeats the purpose of making it a metaphor. Vampires in the Buffverse are used as metaphors in a lot of different ways, also, which definitely adds to the general confusion. They represent addiction, rape, the good vs evil in everyone, violent criminals and other types of societal outcasts, etc...... -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-02 12:04:10-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Peter Meilinger" <mellnger@bu.edu> wrote in message news:b6f0o9$ppc$1@news3.bu.edu... > In alt.tv.angel Ken Arromdee <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote: > >In article <-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com>, > >DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >>David Greenwalt has likened vampires to alcoholics. Angel is the AA member > >>who has acknowledged his victims, apologized for his past, and given up on > >>the bottle. > >> > >>Spike is the alcoholic who thinks just one drink won't make any difference. > >>He believes that he can indulge in his obsession and still control it. > > >In a way, yes, but the show doesn't do substance abuse metaphors very well. > > My thought exactly. Also, there's only so far you can go when > equating a century or more of murder to alcoholism. When your > "addiction" is to torturing and killing people, I'm not exactly > gonna feel sorry for you if you fall off the wagon, y'know? > Obviously, no alcoholic lives forever. Sixty if they are lucky. Still, a life long alcoholic can do plenty of damage in that time frame, including murder. If you count drunk driving as murder, and I do. They can create new alcoholics and most often do, when they teach their own children that drinking is the solution is life's troubles. They can cause chaos and make the streets unsafe at night. And the emotional damage they wreak is incalculable. Plus, alcoholics suffer from the same sort of Dr.Jekyll/Mr. Hyde personality that plauges souled vampires. All in all, I think it's a pretty good metaphor. For what it's worth, I don't have a lot of sympathy for alcoholics or drug users, and unfortunately I know a few. While I wouldn't advocate staking them, I certainly would advocate the death penalty for a drunk driver that kills someone in a car accident. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-02 12:06:52-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Morpheus" <carterr@miskatonic.edu> wrote in message news:SsEia.3285$945.9959@tor-nn1.netcom.ca... > "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com... > > David Greenwalt has likened vampires to alcoholics. Angel is the AA > member > > who has acknowledged his victims, apologized for his past, and given up on > > the bottle. > > > > Spike is the alcoholic who thinks just one drink won't make any > difference. > > He believes that he can indulge in his obsession and still control it. > > They used that same analogy on Forever Knight but it doesn't work really. > Vampires need blood to survive, alcoholics won't die if their alcohol is > taken away from then. > They can survive without feeding off humans, or drinking human blood. And it depends on how bad the dt's really get. > -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-02 14:48:21-08:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (himiko@animail.net)


"DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com>... > David Greenwalt has likened vampires to alcoholics. Angel is the AA member > who has acknowledged his victims, apologized for his past, and given up on > the bottle. > > Spike is the alcoholic who thinks just one drink won't make any difference. > He believes that he can indulge in his obsession and still control it. ME really should give up substance abuse metaphors. They do them so badly. Neither Angel nor Spike strike me as good metaphors for substance abuse; drinking blood doesn't make them evil or even vampires, after all. Vampirism might possibly be a decent metaphor for mental illness, but then the implication is that they should be ON medication: Angel needs uppers, Spike needs something to calm him down. himiko

2003-04-02 15:48:26+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (Peter Meilinger <mellnger@bu.edu>)


In alt.tv.angel Ken Arromdee <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote: >In article <-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com>, >DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >>David Greenwalt has likened vampires to alcoholics. Angel is the AA member >>who has acknowledged his victims, apologized for his past, and given up on >>the bottle. >> >>Spike is the alcoholic who thinks just one drink won't make any difference. >>He believes that he can indulge in his obsession and still control it. >In a way, yes, but the show doesn't do substance abuse metaphors very well. My thought exactly. Also, there's only so far you can go when equating a century or more of murder to alcoholism. When your "addiction" is to torturing and killing people, I'm not exactly gonna feel sorry for you if you fall off the wagon, y'know? Pete

2003-04-02 16:34:46-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Peter Meilinger" <mellnger@bu.edu> wrote in message news:b6f74d$hv$1@news3.bu.edu... > In alt.tv.angel DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >"Peter Meilinger" <mellnger@bu.edu> wrote in message > > >> My thought exactly. Also, there's only so far you can go when > >> equating a century or more of murder to alcoholism. When your > >> "addiction" is to torturing and killing people, I'm not exactly > >> gonna feel sorry for you if you fall off the wagon, y'know? > >> > >Obviously, no alcoholic lives forever. Sixty if they are lucky. Still, a > >life long alcoholic can do plenty of damage in that time frame, including > >murder. If you count drunk driving as murder, and I do. > > So do I. But you're not honestly going to argue that even the most > active of drunk drivers will get within an order of magnitude of > a typical vampire's body count, are you? > > > They can create > >new alcoholics and most often do, when they teach their own children that > >drinking is the solution is life's troubles. They can cause chaos and make > >the streets unsafe at night. And the emotional damage they wreak is > >incalculable. Plus, alcoholics suffer from the same sort of Dr.Jekyll/Mr. > >Hyde personality that plauges souled vampires. All in all, I think it's a > >pretty good metaphor. > > Not me, but to each his own. Actually, I guess I can see the > metaphor when I think about it. My biggest problem with the idea > is that the writers seem to get so damned caught up in their > metaphors and similar nonsense that they forget that vampires > are also soulless fiends who enjoy killing people. > > >For what it's worth, I don't have a lot of sympathy for alcoholics or drug > >users, and unfortunately I know a few. While I wouldn't advocate staking > >them, I certainly would advocate the death penalty for a drunk driver that > >kills someone in a car accident. > > So to bring it back to Buffy and Angel, would you advocate killing > Angel after his Angelus episodes? If we're using the alcoholic > metaphor, those can be seen as drunken binges. And we can even > say he's responsible for this latest one, since as I understand > it he agreed to let the gang unleash Angelus in the hope that > he could be controlled. > Absolutely, in fact if Angelus had killed anyone this time around they are all accomplices to murder, imo. The problem with Angel is that he has redeemed himself, or at least he works really hard at it. He can do a lot of good in the world. But I don't believe in redemption in real life, at least not for murder. Under my conditions, though, everyone in the cast would be locked up for 25 to life. > Sounds an awful lot like "I can handle my liquor" or "Just one > won't hurt me" to my ears. > I don't think Angel thought that at all. He trusted the gang to keep him from hurting anybody and they failed. But he was an absolute fool to agree to it anyway, under any circumstances. The risk was just too great and they hadn't begun to uncover all of their options. Cripe they didn't even take the necessary precautions. If they absolutely had to unleash Angelus they should have had Willow and Buffy or Faith (or both even) on hand before they even thought about it. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-02 17:00:43-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Peter Meilinger" <mellnger@bu.edu> wrote in message news:b6f7mr$hv$2@news3.bu.edu... > In alt.tv.angel DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >"Morpheus" <carterr@miskatonic.edu> wrote in message > > >> They used that same analogy on Forever Knight but it doesn't work really. > >> Vampires need blood to survive, alcoholics won't die if their alcohol is > >> taken away from then. > > > >They can survive without feeding off humans, or drinking human blood. > > Right. Which weakens the metaphor in my eyes, since it's really > saying "Vampires are like alcoholics who regularly choose to kill > people in order to get a drink instead of just going into a liquor > store and buying a bottle." > True. In either case, though, they are willing to disregard another persons life in order to satisfy their addiction. Which is where the metaphor really hits I think. It's that ability to completely disregard human life, the crack addict that beats up and kills his own grandparents so he can steal money to buy drugs, the alcoholic that beats up his wife and takes that weeks grocery money out of her purse to go and buy alcohol. Literally, taking food right out of their children's mouths and just not giving a damn, so long as they get their fix. > Kinda lacks the punch, doesn't it? I suppose we could change it > to "Vampires are like alcoholic, sociopathic murderers." That's a > bit catchier and just as accurate, but as far as I'm concerned, the > most important piece of information is the sociopathic murderer > bit, not the part about alcoholism. > What alcoholic isn't a bit of sociopath? Granted, they don't all kill, but they all have an ability to totally disregard what society values in exchange for the drunk. No money for booze? Just steal it, rob a liquor store, kill a clerk, whatever. Don't have a place to live? Get drunk, it won't matter. > Honestly, I think the alcoholism metaphor is meant to make people > sympathize with vampires. They have a sickness, or at least an > addiction. Addicts aren't inherently evil people and deserve > sympathy and treatment. > I disagree. I think addicts are inherently evil. Unless they are kept chained and locked up and have heroine shot into their veins until they're hooked addicts make a choice to be addicted. And then they make a choice to value that addiction over every other person and thing in life. It's true that addiction is treatable, if the addict is willing to be treated, but staying away from it then becomes a life long struggle. So, that's how I see Angel and Spike. Angel is willing to be treated and try to stay away from the addiction forever. Spike is willing to be treated, if it means he gets to give in to it now and again. > But they should also be held responsible for their actions. > And since just about every vampire in the world chooses to > kill people on a regular basis, they're like alcoholics who > not only choose to drive while drunk, but intentionally run > over innocents while driving. It's sort of hard to feel bad > for them. > Right, and I don't feel bad for them. Both Angel and Spike deserve to be staked. It's the sufferance of the humans around them, who apparently believe that they have more potential alive, than not, that gives them a second chance. The same goes for Willow, Anya, Faith, etc.... > Now, I could see specific vampires like Angel or Spike being > likened to alcoholics. They have these urges, but they're trying > to fight them. But even there it breaks down. Angel and Spike can > drink all the blood they want, as long as it's not human blood. > They could even more than likely get access to a regular supply > of human blood without really hurting anyone, if they threw some > money around. > I think ME has screwed up there. Originally, it was shown that Angel could drink human blood. Now it's implied that human blood in any form is bad and leads to a breakdown. Arguably this was the right path for ME to take, they just didn't take it soon enough. > But their urges aren't just to drink human blood. Their urges > are to kill people in order to get the blood. Comparing wanting > to kill someone to wanting a drink doesn't really work for me. > If you look at it as someone who wants a drink, or a hit, bad enough to kill for it, bad enough to give up everyone, everything that ever meant something to them for it, it works.-- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-02 17:08:21-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030402124811.08652.00000329@mb-fj.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor > >From: Peter Meilinger mellnger@bu.edu > >Date: 4/2/2003 9:37 AM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <b6f74d$hv$1@news3.bu.edu> > > > >In alt.tv.angel DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >>"Peter Meilinger" <mellnger@bu.edu> wrote in message > > > > > > And that drug addicts and alcoholics, while sometimes dangerous, are generally > not murderers. > *If* and this is a big *if* they have enough money to sustain their addiction they generally are not murderers. All bets are off when the dt's start and there is no cash for booze and drugs. Prostitution, stealing, murder, all follows soon after. How many times does someone decide to rob a gas station, or whatever, for money to buy drugs and then ends up shooting the clerk or other by standers so they won't be identified? It's a fast-moving, slippery slope. > > Actually, Angelus reminded me very much of the alcoholics I know. Especially with the verbal and physical abuse. > -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?" >

2003-04-02 17:13:17-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030402123453.08652.00000324@mb-fj.aol.com... > >Subject: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor > >From: "DarkMagic" slnospambilan@comcast.net > >Date: 4/2/2003 7:01 AM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com> > > Yep, I get it. Angel is better than Spike. > > Well, duh! Of course, Angel has a lot more practice than Spike, too. This whole trying to be good just for the heck of it thing is all new to Spike. I don't think he realizes, yet, or has admitted to himself, how hard this struggle is really going to be. I said earlier on this season that it seemed to me that Spike thought he'd go get a soul and everything would be gravy from there on out. Like an addict who attends one AA meeting. He doesn't realize that was just the first step and that there are 100,000 more and it's all uphill from here. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?" > >

2003-04-02 17:34:53+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor >From: "DarkMagic" slnospambilan@comcast.net >Date: 4/2/2003 7:01 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com> Yep, I get it. Angel is better than Spike. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-02 17:37:17+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (Peter Meilinger <mellnger@bu.edu>)


In alt.tv.angel DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >"Peter Meilinger" <mellnger@bu.edu> wrote in message >> My thought exactly. Also, there's only so far you can go when >> equating a century or more of murder to alcoholism. When your >> "addiction" is to torturing and killing people, I'm not exactly >> gonna feel sorry for you if you fall off the wagon, y'know? >> >Obviously, no alcoholic lives forever. Sixty if they are lucky. Still, a >life long alcoholic can do plenty of damage in that time frame, including >murder. If you count drunk driving as murder, and I do. So do I. But you're not honestly going to argue that even the most active of drunk drivers will get within an order of magnitude of a typical vampire's body count, are you? > They can create >new alcoholics and most often do, when they teach their own children that >drinking is the solution is life's troubles. They can cause chaos and make >the streets unsafe at night. And the emotional damage they wreak is >incalculable. Plus, alcoholics suffer from the same sort of Dr.Jekyll/Mr. >Hyde personality that plauges souled vampires. All in all, I think it's a >pretty good metaphor. Not me, but to each his own. Actually, I guess I can see the metaphor when I think about it. My biggest problem with the idea is that the writers seem to get so damned caught up in their metaphors and similar nonsense that they forget that vampires are also soulless fiends who enjoy killing people. >For what it's worth, I don't have a lot of sympathy for alcoholics or drug >users, and unfortunately I know a few. While I wouldn't advocate staking >them, I certainly would advocate the death penalty for a drunk driver that >kills someone in a car accident. So to bring it back to Buffy and Angel, would you advocate killing Angel after his Angelus episodes? If we're using the alcoholic metaphor, those can be seen as drunken binges. And we can even say he's responsible for this latest one, since as I understand it he agreed to let the gang unleash Angelus in the hope that he could be controlled. Sounds an awful lot like "I can handle my liquor" or "Just one won't hurt me" to my ears. Pete

2003-04-02 17:47:07+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (Peter Meilinger <mellnger@bu.edu>)


In alt.tv.angel DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >"Morpheus" <carterr@miskatonic.edu> wrote in message >> They used that same analogy on Forever Knight but it doesn't work really. >> Vampires need blood to survive, alcoholics won't die if their alcohol is >> taken away from then. > >They can survive without feeding off humans, or drinking human blood. Right. Which weakens the metaphor in my eyes, since it's really saying "Vampires are like alcoholics who regularly choose to kill people in order to get a drink instead of just going into a liquor store and buying a bottle." Kinda lacks the punch, doesn't it? I suppose we could change it to "Vampires are like alcholic, sociopathic murderers." That's a bit catchier and just as accurate, but as far as I'm concerned, the most important piece of information is the sociopathic murderer bit, not the part about alcoholism. Honestly, I think the alcoholism metaphor is meant to make people sympathize with vampires. They have a sickness, or at least an addiction. Addicts aren't inherently evil people and deserve sympathy and treatment. But they should also be held responsible for their actions. And since just about every vampire in the world chooses to kill people on a regular basis, they're like alcoholics who not only choose to drive while drunk, but intentionally run over innocents while driving. It's sort of hard to feel bad for them. Now, I could see specific vampires like Angel or Spike being likened to alcholics. They have these urges, but they're trying to fight them. But even there it breaks down. Angel and Spike can drink all the blood they want, as long as it's not human blood. They could even more than likely get access to a regular supply of human blood without really hurting anyone, if they threw some money around. But their urges aren't just to drink human blood. Their urges are to kill people in order to get the blood. Comparing wanting to kill someone to wanting a drink doesn't really work for me. Pete

2003-04-02 17:48:11+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor >From: Peter Meilinger mellnger@bu.edu >Date: 4/2/2003 9:37 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <b6f74d$hv$1@news3.bu.edu> > >In alt.tv.angel DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >>"Peter Meilinger" <mellnger@bu.edu> wrote in message > >>> My thought exactly. Also, there's only so far you can go when >>> equating a century or more of murder to alcoholism. When your >>> "addiction" is to torturing and killing people, I'm not exactly >>> gonna feel sorry for you if you fall off the wagon, y'know? >>> >>Obviously, no alcoholic lives forever. Sixty if they are lucky. Still, a >>life long alcoholic can do plenty of damage in that time frame, including >>murder. If you count drunk driving as murder, and I do. > >So do I. But you're not honestly going to argue that even the most >active of drunk drivers will get within an order of magnitude of >a typical vampire's body count, are you? > >> They can create >>new alcoholics and most often do, when they teach their own children that >>drinking is the solution is life's troubles. They can cause chaos and make >>the streets unsafe at night. And the emotional damage they wreak is >>incalculable. Plus, alcoholics suffer from the same sort of Dr.Jekyll/Mr. >>Hyde personality that plauges souled vampires. All in all, I think it's a >>pretty good metaphor. > >Not me, but to each his own. I've always hated the metaphor. I prefer to think of Angelus as a an example of someone who, when he doesn't take his meds, is criminally insane but is pretty much OK when he takes them. I don't hold a person with a psychotic disorder responsible for bad stuff they do while psychotic, unless, while sane, they decide to stop taking their meds or refuse medical help. >Actually, I guess I can see the >metaphor when I think about it. My biggest problem with the idea >is that the writers seem to get so damned caught up in their >metaphors and similar nonsense that they forget that vampires >are also soulless fiends who enjoy killing people. > And that drug addicts and alcoholics, while sometimes dangerous, are generally not murderers. > >Sounds an awful lot like "I can handle my liquor" or "Just one >won't hurt me" to my ears. > Sounds to me like a guy who agreed to stop taking his meds under controlled circumstances for experimental purposes and then got loose. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-02 17:59:52+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Pete wrote: > >But their urges aren't just to drink human blood. Their urges >are to kill people in order to get the blood. Comparing wanting >to kill someone to wanting a drink doesn't really work for me. > >Pete > Metaphors aren't supposed to be exact, necessarily. If you see drug addicts (alcholics are just one form of drug addict, there's really no need to make a distinction) as evil or as destroyers of people's lives, as some people do, the metaphor would work. I don't see them that way (at least, not in general) so the metaphor doesn't work for me as well. I think in many ways Spike seemed comparable to a drug addict who had led a violent lifestyle partly to support his habit and partly because he had a tendency to be violent anyway, a tendence increased by his drug abuse. But the Angel/alcholic thing didn't work for me at all in part because Angelus was an almost classic serial killer, unlike Spike whose life was more about chaos. I think some drugs can make you violent or make your life chaotic, but I don't think any drugs will make you a serial killer. (Spike killed a lot of people, but not in the methodical "serial killer" fashion). I find Spike and Angel's situations equally sympathetic, Spike's because he retains his humanity even when on the speed/ coke/ heroin cocktail that helps turn him into a dangerous killer and Angel because he wants to be good but sometimes he's deprived of his meds and then he goes all psycho-killer. In the past couple of years I've lost most of my sympathy less with Angel because he doesn't seem to want so much to be good ever since that ridiculous "epiphany" he had. If Sober Spike stays on the "don't give a piss" course I'll lose sympathy for him too. I've already lost some. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-02 19:22:51+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


General warning to Mutant Enemy staff and/or writers who might be lurking: Please keep Buffy characters away from substance abuse metaphors as far as possible.

2003-04-02 19:30:09+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (Peter Meilinger <mellnger@bu.edu>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: >>From: Peter Meilinger mellnger@bu.edu >I've always hated the metaphor. I prefer to think of Angelus as a an example >of someone who, when he doesn't take his meds, is criminally insane but is >pretty much OK when he takes them. I don't hold a person with a psychotic >disorder responsible for bad stuff they do while psychotic, unless, while >sane, they decide to stop taking their meds or refuse medical help. That sounds pretty close to me, yeah. Or at least as close as any other metaphor. Split personality works, too. In some ways, at least. >>Actually, I guess I can see the >>metaphor when I think about it. My biggest problem with the idea >>is that the writers seem to get so damned caught up in their >>metaphors and similar nonsense that they forget that vampires >>are also soulless fiends who enjoy killing people. >And that drug addicts and alcoholics, while sometimes dangerous, are > generally not murderers. That, too. >>Sounds an awful lot like "I can handle my liquor" or "Just one >>won't hurt me" to my ears. >Sounds to me like a guy who agreed to stop taking his meds under >controlled circumstances for experimental purposes and then got loose. I'd say anyone who believed that they could control the circumstances after Angelus came out to play just wasn't that bright. But I haven't seen those episodes, so I'm not sure what safeguards they had in place. Was Angelus chained up or at least locked up? In that case, I could see the gang thinking it was safe enough. Pete

2003-04-02 19:31:17+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (Peter Meilinger <mellnger@bu.edu>)


In alt.tv.angel Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote: >General warning to Mutant Enemy staff and/or writers who might be lurking: >Please keep Buffy characters away from substance abuse metaphors as far as >possible. And if you do feel the need to use such metaphors, for the love of all that's holy, please keep them subtle! Hint: Willow going to a magical crack house to get high is not subtle. Pete

2003-04-02 19:38:23+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor >From: Peter Meilinger mellnger@bu.edu >Date: 4/2/2003 11:30 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <b6fdo1$al2$1@news3.bu.edu> > >Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: >>>From: Peter Meilinger mellnger@bu.edu > >>I've always hated the metaphor. I prefer to think of Angelus as a an >example >>of someone who, when he doesn't take his meds, is criminally insane but is >>pretty much OK when he takes them. I don't hold a person with a psychotic >>disorder responsible for bad stuff they do while psychotic, unless, while >>sane, they decide to stop taking their meds or refuse medical help. > >That sounds pretty close to me, yeah. Or at least as close as any >other metaphor. > >Split personality works, too. In some ways, at least. > >>>Actually, I guess I can see the >>>metaphor when I think about it. My biggest problem with the idea >>>is that the writers seem to get so damned caught up in their >>>metaphors and similar nonsense that they forget that vampires >>>are also soulless fiends who enjoy killing people. > >>And that drug addicts and alcoholics, while sometimes dangerous, are >> generally not murderers. > >That, too. > >>>Sounds an awful lot like "I can handle my liquor" or "Just one >>>won't hurt me" to my ears. > >>Sounds to me like a guy who agreed to stop taking his meds under >>controlled circumstances for experimental purposes and then got loose. > >I'd say anyone who believed that they could control the circumstances >after Angelus came out to play just wasn't that bright. But I haven't >seen those episodes, so I'm not sure what safeguards they had in >place. Was Angelus chained up or at least locked up? In that case, >I could see the gang thinking it was safe enough. > Yes, he was in a big sturdy cage. Cordelia and Angelus, not even working together, tricked the gang into thinking he'd gotten his soul back and letting him out. Here's how. Cordelia tricked them all into thinking a spell had been cast to give him his soul back, giving Angelus the opportunity to know he didn't get his soul back but pretend he did. (Angelus didn't know Cordelia's spell wasn't supposed to work because he didn't know she was evil at the time.) Cordelia's spell did succeed in making Lorne think that Angel was oozing "soul" vibes. Cordelia "convinced" Angelus-pretending-to-be-Angel to allow her to let him out of his cage. See, Cordy knew that Angelus wasn't coming out because he wanted to act like Angel and he figured Angel would want to stay in the cage to stay on the safe side, so she gave him an excuse to overcome that "objection" and come out of the cage. Confused yet? Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-02 19:50:26+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor >From: Peter Meilinger mellnger@bu.edu >Date: 4/2/2003 11:31 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <b6fdq4$al2$2@news3.bu.edu> > >In alt.tv.angel Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote: >>General warning to Mutant Enemy staff and/or writers who might be lurking: > >>Please keep Buffy characters away from substance abuse metaphors as far as >>possible. > >And if you do feel the need to use such metaphors, for the love of >all that's holy, please keep them subtle! > >Hint: Willow going to a magical crack house to get high is not >subtle. > >Pete To be fair, I think ME got that message a long time ago. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-02 20:00:48+01:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (Halo <mindyourownbusiness@sodoff.com>)


> I certainly would advocate the death penalty for a drunk driver that > kills someone in a car accident. > -- > Shannon http://www.expressen.nu/html/bildarkiv/Saburido.htm

2003-04-02 20:14:08+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (Peter Meilinger <mellnger@bu.edu>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: >>From: Peter Meilinger mellnger@bu.edu >>Hint: Willow going to a magical crack house to get high is not >>subtle. >To be fair, I think ME got that message a long time ago. Fair, hell. Anyone who needed to "get" that particular message needs to have this sort of thing spelled out in big block letters. Seriously, how did that idea get through in the first place? Writer1: "Okay, so we're agreed. We'll use Willow's addiction to magic as a metaphor for drug addiction?" Writer2: "Right. But we can't be too subtle. I mean, subtlety would just zoom right over the heads of the fans." Writer1: "Exactly. So we'll make the place she goes to a crack house. That's not too subtle, is it? Will the fans get it?" Writer2: "I don't know. We'll have to be sure to put some zonked-out druggies in there. And maybe we can have Willow drive while high later on. That'd work." Writer1: "Great! Sounds like we've got what we need here." Writer3: "Hey, since when is Willow addicted to magic? I'd say it's really power she's addicted to. And using magic as a metaphor for drugs doesn't make sense considering how we've portrayed magic for five years now." Writer1 and Writer2: "Shut up, fool. You don't know what you're talking about." Pete

2003-04-02 21:18:26+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com>, slnospambilan@comcast.net says... > David Greenwalt has likened vampires to alcoholics. Angel is the AA member > who has acknowledged his victims, apologized for his past, and given up on > the bottle. > > Spike is the alcoholic who thinks just one drink won't make any difference. > He believes that he can indulge in his obsession and still control it. > > -- > Shannon > > Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." > > Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?" > --- I reject the alcohol metaphor for the sexual metaphor. Unlike alcohol, sex is a drive we are born with. Vampires are "born" with the desire for blood, especially human. Humans and most animals are born with the drive to repreduce. Yes, Humans can get addicted to alcohol but that is after they are introduce to it, while or sex drive is inborn. Take a bunch of kids, both boys and girls say ten years old who don't know a thing about sex but old enough to know that they aren't brothers and sisters and put them of an island and when pubety hits I think they will figure it out. Even more so with a vampire's blood lust. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-04-02 22:57:31-08:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (himiko@animail.net)


buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote in message news:<MPG.18f51d27dabfce589898cb@news.earthlink.net>... > --- > I reject the alcohol metaphor for the sexual metaphor. Unlike alcohol, > sex is a drive we are born with. Vampires are "born" with the desire > for blood, especially human. Humans and most animals are born with the > drive to repreduce. I agree. And this is really more the role the vampires play in Buffy's life. Both the major loves (or whatevers) of her life have been vampires. They represent sexuality for her, and Buffy definitely has sexual issues; she has no significant substance abuse problems. But Angel was romance without sex, and Spike was sex without romance...slowly turning into something else even more complicated. Buffy's sexuality is still very much a work in progress. himiko

2003-04-03 03:36:13+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On 2 Apr 2003 15:48:26 GMT, Peter Meilinger <mellnger@bu.edu> wrote: >In alt.tv.angel Ken Arromdee <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote: >>In article <-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com>, >>DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >>>David Greenwalt has likened vampires to alcoholics. Angel is the AA member >>>who has acknowledged his victims, apologized for his past, and given up on >>>the bottle. >>> >>>Spike is the alcoholic who thinks just one drink won't make any difference. >>>He believes that he can indulge in his obsession and still control it. > >>In a way, yes, but the show doesn't do substance abuse metaphors very well. > >My thought exactly. Also, there's only so far you can go when >equating a century or more of murder to alcoholism. Angel hasn't been murdering people for a century. Neither has the new spike.

2003-04-03 07:52:24+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 3 Apr 2003 01:42:54 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote: >In article <YoacnVPZkfQJwBajXTWcpQ@comcast.com>, >DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >>True. In either case, though, they are willing to disregard another persons >>life in order to satisfy their addiction. Which is where the metaphor >>really hits I think. It's that ability to completely disregard human life, >>the crack addict that beats up and kills his own grandparents so he can >>steal money to buy drugs, the alcoholic that beats up his wife and takes >>that weeks grocery money out of her purse to go and buy alcohol. Literally, >>taking food right out of their children's mouths and just not giving a damn, >>so long as they get their fix. > >The problem with the metaphor isn't that vampires have to drink blood to >live, it has to do with Buffyverse vampires are. Vampires are demons--not >the same as the person they resemble. You might metaphorically call an >addiction a demon, but an addiction isn't an external force, it's a personal >flaw. A vampire demon *is* an external force. I find that objection to the metaphor to be trivial. A metaphor is not an identity.

2003-04-03 12:15:24-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030403095640.16882.00000498@mb-fh.aol.com... > Shannon wrote: > > >> > >*If* and this is a big *if* they have enough money to sustain their > >addiction they generally are not >murderers. > > You and I are miles apart on this and I think both of us have some personal > reasons to take the positions we do. > > Then I can't imagine why we would be miles apart. You can't deny that the drug trade is the number one fuel for crime in this country. During prohibition the same could be said for alcohol. I didn't say *every* addict had the potential for murder and abuse, but many people who wouldn't ordinarily have that potential do after becoming addicted. > -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?" >

2003-04-03 12:17:45-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message news:b6g3iu$b83$1@blue.rahul.net... > In article <YoacnVPZkfQJwBajXTWcpQ@comcast.com>, > DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >True. In either case, though, they are willing to disregard another persons > >life in order to satisfy their addiction. Which is where the metaphor > >really hits I think. It's that ability to completely disregard human life, > >the crack addict that beats up and kills his own grandparents so he can > >steal money to buy drugs, the alcoholic that beats up his wife and takes > >that weeks grocery money out of her purse to go and buy alcohol. Literally, > >taking food right out of their children's mouths and just not giving a damn, > >so long as they get their fix. > > The problem with the metaphor isn't that vampires have to drink blood to > live, it has to do with Buffyverse vampires are. Vampires are demons--not > the same as the person they resemble. You might metaphorically call an > addiction a demon, but an addiction isn't an external force, it's a personal > flaw. A vampire demon *is* an external force. Alcohol and drugs are external forces, too, until they become ingested into the body. The alter a persons ability to think, feel, reason, everything. And if the person becomes hooked it takes the place of everything the person ever cherished about life. The alcoholic might continue to go to work, and love their children, but the addiction always comes first. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-03 12:27:23-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030403095450.16882.00000497@mb-fh.aol.com... > Shannon wrote: > > > > >What alcoholic isn't a bit of sociopath? > > Almost all of them. > I have to disagree. I didn't say that everyone who has a drinking problem is a full blown whacko. But the potential is there, and the worse the addiction is the more the potential increases. > > > > Granted, they don't all kill, but > >they all have an ability to totally disregard what society values in > >exchange for the drunk. No money for booze? Just steal it, rob a liquor > >store, kill a clerk, whatever. > > You honestly think all alcoholics steal and kill? > I just said "granted, they don't all kill, but they all have the ability to totally disregard what society values in exchange for the drunk." That's pretty clear, I think. > > > >I disagree. I think addicts are inherently evil. > > Having known quite a few drug addicts who are very good people, some of whom > became addicts due to self-medicating for depression, and having been addicted > to caffeine myself and understanding first hand how hard it can be to quit > using a drug, and not being evil myself, I can tell you it's not true. > Succumbing to the addiction is not inherently evil, refusing to acknowledge the addiction and the harm it causes, is evil. > Many people become addicts in ways other than shooting heroin, and even heroin > addicts are not evil because they made the mistake of shooting when they were > young. > > I'm sorry if you've been hurt by addicts or alcoholics you've known, but they > are not all evil people. In fact, my experience with addicts is that they are > sometimes less evil than some I've known who have never touched a drug. The addicts I know are evil. But that doesn't mean that I think anyone who has ever been addicted to anything is evil. People who refuse to acknowledge the addiction and the harm it has caused, are evil. People who acknowledge the addiction and just don't give a rat's behind about anything else, are evil. > >Angel is willing to be treated and try to stay away > >from the addiction forever. Spike is willing to be treated, if it means he > >gets to give in to it now and again. > > I don't want to get into a whole "my souled vamp is better than your souled > vamp" thing but I will make this one point. Spike got his soul less than a year > ago. Angel got his soul 100 years ago. Angel got to where he is now after > years of struggle, including making some terrible mistakes, including killing > humans and even feeding a bit on humans. Neither of them have yet proven > themselves to be trustworthy people, in my eyes, but Spike has not had nearly > as long to prove himself. > I agree. Which, is why it bugs me when posters say that Spike is "better" than Angel. Redemption takes time, Angel hasn't achieved it, yet, and maybe never will, but he's farther along the path than Spike is. Anyone who doesn't believe that is short changing the redemptive process. > > > >If you look at it as someone who wants a drink, or a hit, bad enough to kill > >for it, bad enough to give up everyone, everything that ever meant something > >to them for it, it works.-- > > Not all alcoholics fit into that category. > I never said they did. For the ones that do fit that category the metaphor works. > -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?" >

2003-04-03 12:38:35-05:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message news:c7902983.0304021448.32edc068@posting.google.com... > "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<-6WcnXbyVrbAZhejXTWcpA@comcast.com>... > > David Greenwalt has likened vampires to alcoholics. Angel is the AA member > > who has acknowledged his victims, apologized for his past, and given up on > > the bottle. > > > > Spike is the alcoholic who thinks just one drink won't make any difference. > > He believes that he can indulge in his obsession and still control it. > > ME really should give up substance abuse metaphors. They do them so > badly. Neither Angel nor Spike strike me as good metaphors for > substance abuse; drinking blood doesn't make them evil or even > vampires, after all. Well, if someone wants to complain about a retcon, there is a legitimate one. Originally, ME showed us that Angel could, and did, drink human blood. Since then that's been changed and it's been implied on a few occasions that drinking human blood will lead the vampire down the evil brick road. Doyle told Angel in "City of" that he needed to become more human and more involved, or he would be tempted someday to veiw them as food. Wolfram and Hart spiked Angel's pigs blood with Connor's blood. And, when Darla was turned back into a vamp, Angel wanted to get to her before she fed. Plus, chipped Spike, human blood free for three years, undeniably became more human and somewhat less evil. I'd say that's sufficient evidence that a vampire drinking human blood is the equivalent of an alcoholic drinking liquor. Minus the death, of course. Still, I think where the metaphor works is that the vampire gives up everything it cares for as a human in exchange for the blood lust. Very often, addicts do the same thing. > -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-03 14:54:50+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Shannon wrote: > >What alcoholic isn't a bit of sociopath? Almost all of them. > Granted, they don't all kill, but >they all have an ability to totally disregard what society values in >exchange for the drunk. No money for booze? Just steal it, rob a liquor >store, kill a clerk, whatever. You honestly think all alcoholics steal and kill? > >I disagree. I think addicts are inherently evil. Having known quite a few drug addicts who are very good people, some of whom became addicts due to self-medicating for depression, and having been addicted to caffeine myself and understanding first hand how hard it can be to quit using a drug, and not being evil myself, I can tell you it's not true. Many people become addicts in ways other than shooting heroin, and even heroin addicts are not evil because they made the mistake of shooting when they were young. I'm sorry if you've been hurt by addicts or alcoholics you've known, but they are not all evil people. In fact, my experience with addicts is that they are sometimes less evil than some I've known who have never touched a drug. >Angel is willing to be treated and try to stay away >from the addiction forever. Spike is willing to be treated, if it means he >gets to give in to it now and again. I don't want to get into a whole "my souled vamp is better than your souled vamp" thing but I will make this one point. Spike got his soul less than a year ago. Angel got his soul 100 years ago. Angel got to where he is now after years of struggle, including making some terrible mistakes, including killing humans and even feeding a bit on humans. Neither of them have yet proven themselves to be trustworthy people, in my eyes, but Spike has not had nearly as long to prove himself. > >If you look at it as someone who wants a drink, or a hit, bad enough to kill >for it, bad enough to give up everyone, everything that ever meant something >to them for it, it works.-- Not all alcoholics fit into that category. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-03 14:56:40+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Shannon wrote: >> >*If* and this is a big *if* they have enough money to sustain their >addiction they generally are not >murderers. You and I are miles apart on this and I think both of us have some personal reasons to take the positions we do. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-03 18:52:42+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor >From: "DarkMagic" slnospambilan@comcast.net >Date: 4/3/2003 9:27 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <s6ecnQnCzaif8hGjXTWcog@comcast.com> > > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030403095450.16882.00000497@mb-fh.aol.com... >> Shannon wrote: >> >> > >> >What alcoholic isn't a bit of sociopath? >> >> Almost all of them. >> >I have to disagree. I didn't say that everyone who has a drinking problem >is a full blown whacko. But the potential is there, and the worse the >addiction is the more the potential increases. >> >> >> > Granted, they don't all kill, but >> >they all have an ability to totally disregard what society values in >> >exchange for the drunk. No money for booze? Just steal it, rob a liquor >> >store, kill a clerk, whatever. >> >> You honestly think all alcoholics steal and kill? >> >I just said "granted, they don't all kill, but they all have the ability to >totally disregard what society values in exchange for the drunk." That's >pretty clear, I think. >> > >> >I disagree. I think addicts are inherently evil. >> >> Having known quite a few drug addicts who are very good people, some of >whom >> became addicts due to self-medicating for depression, and having been >addicted >> to caffeine myself and understanding first hand how hard it can be to quit >> using a drug, and not being evil myself, I can tell you it's not true. >> >Succumbing to the addiction is not inherently evil, refusing to acknowledge >the addiction and the harm it causes, is evil. > >> Many people become addicts in ways other than shooting heroin, and even >heroin >> addicts are not evil because they made the mistake of shooting when they >were >> young. >> >> I'm sorry if you've been hurt by addicts or alcoholics you've known, but >they >> are not all evil people. In fact, my experience with addicts is that they >are >> sometimes less evil than some I've known who have never touched a drug. > >The addicts I know are evil. But that doesn't mean that I think anyone who >has ever been addicted to anything is evil. People who refuse to >acknowledge the addiction and the harm it >has caused, are evil. It depends on how aware they are of their own addiction and the harm they have caused. If they are, that is an evil aspect of their personality, but having that evil aspect doesn't necessarily overshadow all of the good. I would define an evil person whose evil side has almost totally taken over. I don't think that is true of most drug addicts, though it is certainly true of some, due in part to their own weaknesses and due in part to biochemical changes in the brain, I would think. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-03 18:54:53+00:00 - Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Spike, Angel, and the alcholic metaphor >From: "DarkMagic" slnospambilan@comcast.net >Date: 4/3/2003 9:15 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <9NOdnaTCtsmu8RGjXTWcpw@comcast.com> > > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030403095640.16882.00000498@mb-fh.aol.com... >> Shannon wrote: >> >> >> >> >*If* and this is a big *if* they have enough money to sustain their >> >addiction they generally are not >murderers. >> >> You and I are miles apart on this and I think both of us have some >personal >> reasons to take the positions we do. >> >> >Then I can't imagine why we would be >miles apart. Because the vast majority of people I know who use or abuse drugs of various sorts are not evil. >You can't deny that the >drug trade is the number one fuel for crime >in this country. I'd say it's poverty and depressed economies. Poverty is one of the things that leads to addiction due to hopelessness it causes. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too