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2003-11-15 02:26:01-08:00 - Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (luvthistle1@yahoo.com)


When Connor was born, he in a small way brought a little redemption to Darla, just by being born. Darla sacrificed herself in order for him to live. but since Angel had erase Connor from the world, did he also erase Darla redeeming moment? What about Lilah and Wes? Wes relationship with Lilah only came about, because he was on the outs, from the group, for taking Connor. but if Connor didn't exist, Wes would have never taken him, therefore he would not have had a reason to turn to Lilah. We know that Wes remembers chopping up Lilah and that they were lovers, yet he doesn't remember "the father will kill the son prophecy. What about Fred and Gunn? Do they remember having a relationship? We know that Fred doesn't remember Wes expressing his feeling for her. Cordy should no longer be a "higher being", or half demon. What else do you believe "might", ( or should ) be affected by the mindwipe ? Is the whole thing creating some type of "paradox"? Wes and Angel discover the shanshu prophecy scroll, when they had taken the scroll from W&H, who at the time, were raising Darla ( who was in the box). therefore, if W&H didn't try to bring Darla back, Angel would have never had got the scroll . ( nor was there had been a need for Angel to rescue "Billy" from hell, or meet Skip).

2003-11-15 10:36:44-06:00 - Re: Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (Cephus <jschillaci@bellsouth.net>)


Don't give it so much thought. It is just lazy on the part of the writers to be so inconsistent. It is as if they could care less about the loyal fans. They just want to attract the Smallville holdovers with stand along stories that don't have to make sense when compared to the first 4 years. I am enjoying the show this year, but it is obvious what is going on. The producers sold their souls to get another season on the air. "Eds" <callmerazor@hotmael.com> wrote in message news:bp53vh$h42$1@sparta.btinternet.com... > > "luvthistle1" <luvthistle1@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:f856e762.0311150226.21ac224f@posting.google.com... > > When Connor was born, he in a small way brought a little redemption to > > Darla, just by being born. Darla sacrificed herself in order for him > > to live. but since Angel had erase Connor from the world, did he also > > erase Darla redeeming moment? > > > > > > What about Lilah and Wes? Wes relationship with Lilah only came about, > > because he was on the outs, from the group, for taking Connor. but if > > Connor didn't exist, Wes would have never taken him, therefore he > > would not have had a reason to turn to Lilah. > > > It would be interesting to know why Wes believes he had a relationship with > Lilah. > > > We know that Wes remembers chopping up Lilah and that they were > > lovers, yet he doesn't remember "the father will kill the son > > prophecy. > > > > What about Fred and Gunn? Do they remember having a relationship? We > > know that Fred doesn't remember Wes expressing his feeling for her. > > > How do we know this? > > > Cordy should no longer be a "higher being", or half demon. > > > Her ascension had nothing to do with Connor did it? I presume the gang all > remember Jasmine (though who was Jasmine's father?!) > > > What else do you believe "might", ( or should ) be affected by the > > mindwipe ? > > > I think maybe it's like the spell prventing people from rememebring that Ben > and Glory were the same person. When they tried to think about it, their > brains turned to mush. I imagine Wesley trying to think why the hell he > shagged Lilah, and just going all fuzzy. > > And hey, what about Wes' gang of demon fighters? Did they all return to > their day jobs? > > > > Is the whole thing creating some type of "paradox"? Wes and Angel > > discover the shanshu prophecy scroll, when they had taken the scroll > > from W&H, who at the time, were raising Darla ( who was in the box). > > therefore, if W&H didn't try to bring Darla back, Angel would have > > never had got the scroll . ( nor was there had been a need for Angel > > to rescue "Billy" from hell, or meet Skip). > > This would be overkill. They don't need to alter reality so Darla was never > brought back, just so no-one remembers Connor > >

2003-11-15 11:06:02-06:00 - Re: Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (Thirsty Viking <jdoerter@kill.spam.comcast.net>)


Do a google on mindwipe most of this is well covered ground. "luvthistle1" <luvthistle1@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f856e762.0311150226.21ac224f@posting.google.com... > When Connor was born, he in a small way brought a little redemption to > Darla, just by being born. Darla sacrificed herself in order for him > to live. but since Angel had erase Connor from the world, did he also > erase Darla redeeming moment? > > > What about Lilah and Wes? Wes relationship with Lilah only came about, > because he was on the outs, from the group, for taking Connor. but if > Connor didn't exist, Wes would have never taken him, therefore he > would not have had a reason to turn to Lilah. > > We know that Wes remembers chopping up Lilah and that they were > lovers, yet he doesn't remember "the father will kill the son > prophecy. > > What about Fred and Gunn? Do they remember having a relationship? We > know that Fred doesn't remember Wes expressing his feeling for her. > > Cordy should no longer be a "higher being", or half demon. > > What else do you believe "might", ( or should ) be affected by the > mindwipe ? > > Is the whole thing creating some type of "paradox"? Wes and Angel > discover the shanshu prophecy scroll, when they had taken the scroll > from W&H, who at the time, were raising Darla ( who was in the box). > therefore, if W&H didn't try to bring Darla back, Angel would have > never had got the scroll . ( nor was there had been a need for Angel > to rescue "Billy" from hell, or meet Skip).

2003-11-15 11:51:13+00:00 - Re: Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (Eds <callmerazor@hotmael.com>)


"luvthistle1" <luvthistle1@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f856e762.0311150226.21ac224f@posting.google.com... > When Connor was born, he in a small way brought a little redemption to > Darla, just by being born. Darla sacrificed herself in order for him > to live. but since Angel had erase Connor from the world, did he also > erase Darla redeeming moment? > > > What about Lilah and Wes? Wes relationship with Lilah only came about, > because he was on the outs, from the group, for taking Connor. but if > Connor didn't exist, Wes would have never taken him, therefore he > would not have had a reason to turn to Lilah. > It would be interesting to know why Wes believes he had a relationship with Lilah. > We know that Wes remembers chopping up Lilah and that they were > lovers, yet he doesn't remember "the father will kill the son > prophecy. > > What about Fred and Gunn? Do they remember having a relationship? We > know that Fred doesn't remember Wes expressing his feeling for her. > How do we know this? > Cordy should no longer be a "higher being", or half demon. > Her ascension had nothing to do with Connor did it? I presume the gang all remember Jasmine (though who was Jasmine's father?!) > What else do you believe "might", ( or should ) be affected by the > mindwipe ? > I think maybe it's like the spell prventing people from rememebring that Ben and Glory were the same person. When they tried to think about it, their brains turned to mush. I imagine Wesley trying to think why the hell he shagged Lilah, and just going all fuzzy. And hey, what about Wes' gang of demon fighters? Did they all return to their day jobs? > Is the whole thing creating some type of "paradox"? Wes and Angel > discover the shanshu prophecy scroll, when they had taken the scroll > from W&H, who at the time, were raising Darla ( who was in the box). > therefore, if W&H didn't try to bring Darla back, Angel would have > never had got the scroll . ( nor was there had been a need for Angel > to rescue "Billy" from hell, or meet Skip). This would be overkill. They don't need to alter reality so Darla was never brought back, just so no-one remembers Connor

2003-11-15 11:55:12-08:00 - Re: Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (notseewasp@yahoo.com)


> Is the whole thing creating some type of "paradox"? Paradox? No, because as far as I can see, only the memories of everyone were changed. Even if reality was changed, how can you say there was any paradox? You have almost no information about how those past events actually happened (if we assume a reality change). Wesley implies that he disposed of Lilah's body in the same way in which we saw it on screen, and also implies it that Jasmine, a higher being was behind it. We also know that Wesley doesn't know anything about the Father/Son prophecy. Where's the paradox? You have no other information to go on currently. Until we get more info, I don't see how you can bring up super specific incidents from the past. We don't know what was changed and what wasn't, memory-wise or reality wise. You cannot say "what about when this happened?" because you can't assume our gang remembers doing the things you bring up.

2003-11-15 19:25:19-06:00 - Re: Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (Thirsty Viking <jdoerter@kill.spam.comcast.net>)


"Eds" <callmerazor@hotmael.com> wrote in message news:bp6a1l$cup$1@hercules.btinternet.com... > > > Wesley implies that he disposed of Lilah's body in the same way in > > which we saw it on screen, > Actually, he said he hacked her into little pieces, which wasn't the case. > He may just have been exaggerating to try to get his dad's sympathy, of > course. Or the peronsonal horror makes them seem little to him.

2003-11-15 22:40:54+00:00 - Re: Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (Eds <callmerazor@hotmael.com>)


> Wesley implies that he disposed of Lilah's body in the same way in > which we saw it on screen, Actually, he said he hacked her into little pieces, which wasn't the case. He may just have been exaggerating to try to get his dad's sympathy, of course.

2003-11-16 02:21:54-08:00 - Re: Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (luvthistle1@yahoo.com)


"Eds" <callmerazor@hotmael.com> wrote in message news:<bp53vh$h42$1@sparta.btinternet.com>... > "luvthistle1" <luvthistle1@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:f856e762.0311150226.21ac224f@posting.google.com... > > When Connor was born, he in a small way brought a little redemption to > > Darla, just by being born. Darla sacrificed herself in order for him > > to live. but since Angel had erase Connor from the world, did he also > > erase Darla redeeming moment? > > > > > > What about Lilah and Wes? Wes relationship with Lilah only came about, > > because he was on the outs, from the group, for taking Connor. but if > > Connor didn't exist, Wes would have never taken him, therefore he > > would not have had a reason to turn to Lilah. > > > It would be interesting to know why Wes believes he had a relationship with > Lilah. > > > We know that Wes remembers chopping up Lilah and that they were > > lovers, yet he doesn't remember "the father will kill the son > > prophecy. > > > > What about Fred and Gunn? Do they remember having a relationship? We > > know that Fred doesn't remember Wes expressing his feeling for her. > > > How do we know this? > > > Cordy should no longer be a "higher being", or half demon. > > > Her ascension had nothing to do with Connor did it? I presume the gang all > remember Jasmine (though who was Jasmine's father?!) > > > What else do you believe "might", ( or should ) be affected by the > > mindwipe ? > > > I think maybe it's like the spell prventing people from rememebring that Ben > and Glory were the same person. When they tried to think about it, their > brains turned to mush. I imagine Wesley trying to think why the hell he > shagged Lilah, and just going all fuzzy. > > And hey, what about Wes' gang of demon fighters? Did they all return to > their day jobs? > > > > Is the whole thing creating some type of "paradox"? Wes and Angel > > discover the shanshu prophecy scroll, when they had taken the scroll > > from W&H, who at the time, were raising Darla ( who was in the box). > > therefore, if W&H didn't try to bring Darla back, Angel would have > > never had got the scroll . ( nor was there had been a need for Angel > > to rescue "Billy" from hell, or meet Skip). > > This would be overkill. They don't need to alter reality so Darla was never > brought back, just so no-one remembers Connor. see, that's the rub. if they remember Darla being brought back, then what do they remember happening to her? Wes remember killing his girlfriend,....but he never stated it was Lilah. so, if he do remember going with Lilah, do he remember "what" incident brought them together? The big question is: how far back do the mind wipe go? was it, memories of Connor, or his whole existence? Cordy being a higher being, was to bring Jasmine into the world. Connor was jasmine's father. therefore , Do they remember Cordy giving birth to Jasmine? if so, who do they believe was the father? Sign luvthistle1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Spikespermanentcave/?yguid=85681813

2003-11-16 07:40:09+00:00 - Re: Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (Mentski <mentski@shimmyshimmyyallshimmyyamshimmyyaybtinterbunknet.com>)


"luvthistle1" <luvthistle1@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f856e762.0311150226.21ac224f@posting.google.com... > Is the whole thing creating some type of "paradox"? No.. because the reality hasn't changed, I'ts exactly what you said, I'ts a mind wipe. The past hasn't been rewritten, only the memories of it, and apparently, this seems to be only the memories regarding Connor directly, or at least who he is. Everything that happened as a direct concequence of Connor being there still happened, and there has been reference enough this season now to know this is the case. Fanwank: The memories where Connor was involved were replaced by something else that resolved to an identical conclusion. That good enough? 'Ski -- http://mentski.noelstilllovesyou.co.uk http://www.noelstilllovesyou.co.uk "The rest of the site is vile", Matt Kelly, The Mirror "Very scary and should be stopped immediately", Amy Vickers, The Mirror

2003-11-16 17:15:08+00:00 - Re: Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <f856e762.0311150226.21ac224f@posting.google.com>, luvthistle1@yahoo.com (luvthistle1) wrote: > When Connor was born, he in a small way brought a little redemption to > Darla, just by being born. Darla sacrificed herself in order for him > to live. but since Angel had erase Connor from the world, did he also > erase Darla redeeming moment? Connor isn't erased. It's just that no one remembers him and his old life. Darla is still dead, she still sacrificed herself giving him life.

2003-11-16 19:55:04-06:00 - Re: Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (Thirsty Viking <jdoerter@kill.spam.comcast.net>)


"Mentski" <mentski@shimmyshimmyyallshimmyyamshimmyyaybtinterbunknet.com> wrote in message news:1068968404.75197.0@despina.uk.clara.net... > > "luvthistle1" <luvthistle1@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:f856e762.0311150226.21ac224f@posting.google.com... > > Is the whole thing creating some type of "paradox"? > > No.. because the reality hasn't changed, I'ts exactly what you said, I'ts a > mind wipe. The past hasn't been rewritten, only the memories of it, and > apparently, this seems to be only the memories regarding Connor directly, or > at least who he is. > > Everything that happened as a direct concequence of Connor being there still > happened, and there has been reference enough this season now to know this > is the case. > > Fanwank: The memories where Connor was involved were replaced by something > else that resolved to an identical conclusion. > > That good enough? > My pet Fanwank ... son of Lindsey and Darla no fus, no muss.

2003-11-16 20:00:32-06:00 - Re: Is the mind wipe creating a paradox? what else is affected? - (Thirsty Viking <jdoerter@kill.spam.comcast.net>)


"luvthistle1" <luvthistle1@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f856e762.0311160221.4d43e2e0@posting.google.com... > "Eds" <callmerazor@hotmael.com> wrote in message news:<bp53vh$h42$1@sparta.btinternet.com>... > > "luvthistle1" <luvthistle1@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:f856e762.0311150226.21ac224f@posting.google.com... > > > When Connor was born, he in a small way brought a little redemption to > > > Darla, just by being born. Darla sacrificed herself in order for him > > > to live. but since Angel had erase Connor from the world, did he also > > > erase Darla redeeming moment? > > > > > > > > > What about Lilah and Wes? Wes relationship with Lilah only came about, > > > because he was on the outs, from the group, for taking Connor. but if > > > Connor didn't exist, Wes would have never taken him, therefore he > > > would not have had a reason to turn to Lilah. > > > > > It would be interesting to know why Wes believes he had a relationship with > > Lilah. > > > > > We know that Wes remembers chopping up Lilah and that they were > > > lovers, yet he doesn't remember "the father will kill the son > > > prophecy. > > > > > > What about Fred and Gunn? Do they remember having a relationship? We > > > know that Fred doesn't remember Wes expressing his feeling for her. > > > > > How do we know this? > > > > > Cordy should no longer be a "higher being", or half demon. > > > > > Her ascension had nothing to do with Connor did it? I presume the gang all > > remember Jasmine (though who was Jasmine's father?!) > > > > > What else do you believe "might", ( or should ) be affected by the > > > mindwipe ? > > > > > I think maybe it's like the spell prventing people from rememebring that Ben > > and Glory were the same person. When they tried to think about it, their > > brains turned to mush. I imagine Wesley trying to think why the hell he > > shagged Lilah, and just going all fuzzy. > > > > And hey, what about Wes' gang of demon fighters? Did they all return to > > their day jobs? > > > > > > > Is the whole thing creating some type of "paradox"? Wes and Angel > > > discover the shanshu prophecy scroll, when they had taken the scroll > > > from W&H, who at the time, were raising Darla ( who was in the box). > > > therefore, if W&H didn't try to bring Darla back, Angel would have > > > never had got the scroll . ( nor was there had been a need for Angel > > > to rescue "Billy" from hell, or meet Skip). > > > > > > > This would be overkill. They don't need to alter reality so Darla was never > > brought back, just so no-one remembers Connor. > > > > > see, that's the rub. if they remember Darla being brought back, then > what do they remember happening to her? Staking herself to give birth to lindseys child. > Wes remember killing his girlfriend,....but he never stated it was > Lilah. so, if he do remember going with Lilah, do he remember "what" > incident brought them together? The split with AI is the most controversial.... Describing that could resolve the majority of questions... did he split and why. > The big question is: how far back do the mind wipe go? was it, > memories of Connor, or his whole existence? Obviously father berating him till he was a self conscious nub seems to still apply. (i think i remembered the phrase close to correct) so far seems to be NO reason to believe other than conner affect, but little proof that that was only thing changed. Easiest path is to assume all the same till known difference arises. > Cordy being a higher being, was to bring Jasmine into the world. > Connor was jasmine's father. therefore , Do they remember Cordy giving > birth to Jasmine? if so, who do they believe was the father? Fanwank: the son of linsey and Darla