FLM films - My Webpage

2003-05-12 01:15:18-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>)


Rose wrote: > >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > >Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > > > >Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > >> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > >> this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > > > >Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > > >Why, oh why, oh why? > > > > Probably because it was add Spike to Angel or Angel would be cancelled. I > guess those who feel it would have been better for Angel to be cancelled than > for Spike to be added can just pretend it was cancelled. Me, I'm glad the show > is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, > they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. Perhaps Spike will be leading the resistance against W&H! He has warned of the consequences of powerful magic, and he would believe that Buffy would oppose Angel's bargain with W&H.

2003-05-12 01:29:19-05:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Lord Usher <lord_usher@hotmail.com>)


AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in news:b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de: > Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of > "Buffy"? I'm no great fan of Spike right now, but I think there's at least a chance he can become an interesting character again once ME pries him away from his chastely beloved (*gag*) Buffy. Hell, it did wonders for Angel. Plus... (Story idea for S5 below...) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . I think it could be very interesting if Spike shows up as an *antagonist* figure to the newly establishment-aligned Fang Gang. How ironic would it be if Angel Investigations is now the untrustworthy faceless corporation, and Spike is the scrappy loner in a shitty little office who's trying to stand up for right against their might? -- Lord Usher "I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."

2003-05-12 02:09:30-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com>)


You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning?

2003-05-12 03:02:01-05:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (the q is silent <j-wagner2@northwestern.edu>)


AE Jabbour wrote: > > Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: > >>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >>From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > >>Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >>Message-id: <b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > >> > >>Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > >>> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > >>> this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > >> > >>Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >>turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >>piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > >> > >>Why, oh why, oh why? > >> > > > > Probably because it was add Spike to Angel or Angel would be cancelled. I > > guess those who feel it would have been better for Angel to be cancelled than > > for Spike to be added can just pretend it was cancelled. Me, I'm glad the show > > is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, > > they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. > > Maybe I just don't get it. It's very possible that I haven't *GOT* it > since S2 "Buffy". > > But why is Spike's presence critical to continuing "Angel"? I can't see anything > but an opporunity to hurt the show. How is this character, who has not been > on "Angel" in the four seasons it has existed, somehow critical to its > existence now? Spike has appeared on Angel, in the show's third episode, but what Rose insinuating was that perhaps the WB demanded that ME bring Spike to Angel as a stipulation of renewing the show, since Spike is a popular character among many fans and could increase ratings. -- Jyqm "And so I've learned to retreat at the first sign of danger I mean why wait around, if it's just to surrender And ambition, I've found, can lead only to failure I do not read the reviews No, I am not singing for you"

2003-05-12 04:11:44-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (dxgarten@ignmail.com)


Word! to whoever said that adding Spike to the cast is like adding Cancer to a healthy patient. It's unnecessary and I doubt it'll help the ratings. After all, having Spike on BTVS didn't help its ass from being kicked by Angel in ratings. And now they have more males than females character. Oh well, here's hoping Lilah will be more prominent next season especially since her relationship with Wes seems to be a big focus in the season finale.

2003-05-12 05:34:15-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (rshiflet@hotmail.com)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030512025516.06080.00000251@mb-m29.aol.com>... > >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > >Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > > > >Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > >> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > >> this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > > > >Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > > >Why, oh why, oh why? > > > > Probably because it was add Spike to Angel or Angel would be cancelled. I > guess those who feel it would have been better for Angel to be cancelled than > for Spike to be added can just pretend it was cancelled. Me, I'm glad the show > is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, > they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. > > > > > > Rose > I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson. I hope they don't just have Spike sit around shirtless. I don't mind the being beat down parts, since that can develop the character. But, don't treat him like eye candy. He's more interesting than that. Not that I hate seeing his chest - it just gets a little too much when it's obvious that it's not needed for the scene. Spike shirtless because the First is going to cut his chest - important. Spike shirtless in order to talk to Faith - not important. I'm interested in the past relationship of Spike and Angel (I'm not talking about a romantic past). Will they fanwank why Spike called Angel his sire (and later showing that Drusilla was Spike's sire)? I'm also interested in Angel's feelings of Spike also having a soul (that is, if he still has one on Angel). Of course, I'm one of those "Spike lovers" who ruined Buffy - all for checkbones. Renee

2003-05-12 06:05:12+00:00 - ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Steven Blue <steven_blue@yahoo.com>)




2003-05-12 06:06:16-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (SueNLksd@webtv.net)


Sorry, but I think ME sold there souls to the Wb. Who desided Spike could save Angel. Angel is one of the best shows on tv.I do not want the Spike show. He could not help Buffys ratings . Yuck!!!!!!!I stopped watching Buffy because he took that show over.

2003-05-12 06:15:35+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? Why, oh why, oh why? -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-12 06:17:39+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Steven Blue <steven_blue@yahoo.com>)


Well I don't know if this is a spoiler or not. S P O I L E R S P A C E It has been said that Connor will appear as recurring next season, could be one episode, could be ten who knows, but that he'll get removed from the credits. So we'll have to see.. personally I'd like to see him go, but I would like to see Cordy remain. I want to see Cordy change however. It'd be so cool to see a Cordy who's suddenly cold, like season 1 - 3 of Buffy. Like maybe if she has a chance to become an actress or does, and hangs out with a new bunch of friends? Or maybe we could see her on for a few episodes during the next season. We could see her coming to her doom. (the coma idea is just boring to me)

2003-05-12 06:30:03+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (dothompso@aol.com)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net >Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Standard Time <snip> . . . . . . . . >Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? Exactly, its like transplanting a cancer *into* a patient. Hopefully, Tim et al. will treat Spike like the marginal player he is and keep Marsters from chewing the scenery. Doug

2003-05-12 06:46:13-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (possible buffy finale spoilers) - (edelbeb@email.com)


Didn't everyone moan about Wesley joining the cast when he first came aboard? Like Wesley was when his character first joined the staff, the re-souled (and possibly human) Spike is pretty much a blank slate played by a fine actor. As long as Tim Minear and Joss Whedon contribute to and carefully monitor the quality of the show, I wouldn't worry much about which characters are added or removed. AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... > Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > > You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > > regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > > this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > > Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > Why, oh why, oh why?

2003-05-12 06:48:23+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, steven_blue@yahoo.com wrote in article <sQGva.3765$Xr6.692808@news1.telusplanet.net>... > From Variety: Posted: Sun., May 11, 2003, 10:00pm PT > > NBC extends 'ER' deal, 'Angel' stays aloft > Medical drama scheduled through 2006 > Here is the link: <http://www.variety.com/index.asp? layout=upsell_article&articleID=VR1117886028&categoryID=14&cs=1> You need to be a subscriber to Variety to read the article, but the headline is as posted. Thanks, Steven, for giving us the text. I will miss Charisma Carpenter as a series regular. I hope that we will get some closure on Cordelia's plight. As for James Marsters, it will be a trip having him on board. It would be humorous if Spike rails on Angel for selling out to the senior partners. You know in a "how things change but stay the same" sort of way. If Ms Carpenter is on her way out, that will make the cast light with female representation. Perhaps Alexa Davalos as Gwen Raiden will try to fill the void. It would be a kick if Emma Caulfield came over to replace Ms Carpenter. Talk about things changing but remaining the same. But Ms Caulfield sounds like she is weary of Anya and so it goes. So I guess it will be Gwen. I hope there are no last minute changes to the schedule a la Dark Angel. Anyway, for now, this is good news. Enjoy it gang! -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-12 06:55:16+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net >Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > >Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: >> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast >> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ >> this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > >Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > >Why, oh why, oh why? > Probably because it was add Spike to Angel or Angel would be cancelled. I guess those who feel it would have been better for Angel to be cancelled than for Spike to be added can just pretend it was cancelled. Me, I'm glad the show is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 06:55:37-05:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <20030512025516.06080.00000251@mb-m29.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > >Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > > > >Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > >> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season > >> 4..... this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > > > >Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of > >"Buffy"? > > > >Why, oh why, oh why? > > > > Probably because it was add Spike to Angel or Angel would be cancelled. > I guess those who feel it would have been better for Angel to be cancelled > than for Spike to be added can just pretend it was cancelled. Me, I'm glad > the show > is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on > Buffy, they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. Yeah, this will be a wonderful experience, watching Spike take over this show like he did the Buffy show. Buffy was supposed to be about a girl named Buffy but in the last two years has become more about Spike than anything else. Now I guess we'll be treated to watching a show about Angel become all about Spike also.

2003-05-12 07:10:14+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (dothompso@aol.com)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) >Date: 5/11/2003 11:55 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <snip> . . . .. . . . >Me, I'm glad the show >is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, >they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. >Rose Here's hoping for both. ATS deserves better than adding a one-dimensional cliche and his co-dependent fan-atics. Doug Doug

2003-05-12 07:24:21+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, fylmfan@aol.comspam wrote in article <20030512025516.06080.00000251@mb-m29.aol.com>... > >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > >Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > > > >Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > >> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > >> this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > > > >Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > > >Why, oh why, oh why? > > > > Probably because it was add Spike to Angel or Angel would be cancelled. I > guess those who feel it would have been better for Angel to be cancelled than > for Spike to be added can just pretend it was cancelled. Me, I'm glad the show > is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, > they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. > What do you think of this, Rose: Spike begins his stay on Angel by railing against Angel for selling out to the senior partners. It would be poetic justice considering how they re-encountered each other back on "School Hard." So far as mistreating the character, if they do it probably will not be due to female problems. If Ms Carpenter does leave the series there will be a paucity of female leads. I could see where Electro Girl would be a turn on for Spike, but it will take some work integrating her as a regular for the series. Besides, I think the days of turgid soap opera will be left behind as the show assumes its new direction. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-12 07:25:55-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (xander@dwiz.net)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.1928e392cfba63b098a1c3@netnews.attbi.com>... > Previously on alt.tv.angel, steven_blue@yahoo.com wrote in article > <sQGva.3765$Xr6.692808@news1.telusplanet.net>... > > From Variety: Posted: Sun., May 11, 2003, 10:00pm PT > > > > NBC extends 'ER' deal, 'Angel' stays aloft > > Medical drama scheduled through 2006 > > > > Here is the link: > <http://www.variety.com/index.asp? > layout=upsell_article&articleID=VR1117886028&categoryID=14&cs=1> > > You need to be a subscriber to Variety to read the article, but the > headline is as posted. Thanks, Steven, for giving us the text. > > I will miss Charisma Carpenter as a series regular. I hope that we will > get some closure on Cordelia's plight. As for James Marsters, it will > be a trip having him on board. It would be humorous if Spike rails on > Angel for selling out to the senior partners. You know in a "how things > change but stay the same" sort of way. > > If Ms Carpenter is on her way out, that will make the cast light with > female representation. Perhaps Alexa Davalos as Gwen Raiden will try to > fill the void. It would be a kick if Emma Caulfield came over to > replace Ms Carpenter. Talk about things changing but remaining the > same. But Ms Caulfield sounds like she is weary of Anya and so it goes. > So I guess it will be Gwen. > > I hope there are no last minute changes to the schedule a la Dark Angel. > Anyway, for now, this is good news. Enjoy it gang! I am personally glad to see both Cordy and Connor go. I think both of them got exceptionally annoying last season. Plus Angel can now get together with Gwen!! yay. I think that the addition of Spike could be good for the show if they change Spike's demeanor much like they did Cordy's moving from Buffy to Angel. Angel has always been a darker show then Buffy and I think if they keep up that persona with Spike than they will be ok. As far as moving him to the show, I think that with Buffy finishing up they may be able to move some of those viewers and increase their ratings. Especially with a great lead-in like Smallville. -Alex

2003-05-12 07:34:47+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: >>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >>From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net >>Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time >>Message-id: <b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> >> >>Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast >>> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ >>> this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? >> >>Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >>turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >>piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? >> >>Why, oh why, oh why? >> > > Probably because it was add Spike to Angel or Angel would be cancelled. I > guess those who feel it would have been better for Angel to be cancelled than > for Spike to be added can just pretend it was cancelled. Me, I'm glad the show > is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, > they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. Maybe I just don't get it. It's very possible that I haven't *GOT* it since S2 "Buffy". But why is Spike's presence critical to continuing "Angel"? I can't see anything but an opporunity to hurt the show. How is this character, who has not been on "Angel" in the four seasons it has existed, somehow critical to its existence now? I would think that no one is critical to its existence other than Angel, himself. They got rid of Doyle, they are obviously moving Cordelia at least to a minor role. It's hard for me to imagine that someone is *critical* to the show being renewed, other than Angel. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-12 07:50:23-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (metrix007@yahoo.com)


AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... > Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > > You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > > regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > > this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > > Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? Why do so many people dislike Spike? Or is it they dislike JM? No doubt, the angel team will change spike..I doubt he will be the same character he is on buffy, just look at wesleys transformation. > > Why, oh why, oh why? Because the show can only benifit from this.

2003-05-12 07:51:20-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9niqn$kvdut$2@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... > Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: > >>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >>From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > >>Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >>Message-id: <b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > >> > >>Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > >>> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > >>> this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > >> > >>Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >>turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >>piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > >> > >>Why, oh why, oh why? > >> > > > > Probably because it was add Spike to Angel or Angel would be cancelled. I > > guess those who feel it would have been better for Angel to be cancelled than > > for Spike to be added can just pretend it was cancelled. Me, I'm glad the show > > is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, > > they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. > > Maybe I just don't get it. It's very possible that I haven't *GOT* it > since S2 "Buffy". > > But why is Spike's presence critical to continuing "Angel"? I can't see anything > but an opporunity to hurt the show. How is this character, who has not been > on "Angel" in the four seasons it has existed, somehow critical to its > existence now? ---- To bring in BtVS fans in general and Spike fans in particular to build ratings. > > I would think that no one is critical to its existence other than Angel, himself. > They got rid of Doyle, they are obviously moving Cordelia at least to a > minor role. It's hard for me to imagine that someone is *critical* to the > show being renewed, other than Angel. ---- As I said above, to capitalize on Spike's popularity. As to Cordelia, it maybe that she wants some maturnity leave, or at least, like Anthony Head, more time to spend with the family in general. ---->Hunter

2003-05-12 07:55:41+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: dothompso@aol.com (DoThompso) >Date: 5/12/2003 12:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030512031014.13222.00000172@mb-m14.aol.com> > >>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) >>Date: 5/11/2003 11:55 PM Pacific Standard Time >>Message-id: > ><snip> >. >. >. >.. >. >. >. >>Me, I'm glad the show >>is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on >Buffy, >>they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. > >>Rose > >Here's hoping for both. ATS deserves better than adding a one-dimensional >cliche and his co-dependent fan-atics. > >Doug Light a few candles and say a few prayers and all your wishes could come true, Doug. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 07:57:38-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9nm0b$kvdut$10@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... > the q is silent <j-wagner2@northwestern.edu> wrote: > > AE Jabbour wrote: > > >> But why is Spike's presence critical to continuing "Angel"? I can't see anything > >> but an opporunity to hurt the show. How is this character, who has not been > >> on "Angel" in the four seasons it has existed, somehow critical to its > >> existence now? > > > > Spike has appeared on Angel, in the show's third episode, but what Rose > > insinuating was that perhaps the WB demanded that ME bring Spike to > > Angel as a stipulation of renewing the show, since Spike is a popular > > character among many fans and could increase ratings. > > No kidding. > > Duh. > > I did not mean that he has not been "shown" on the show, but that he has > never been an even remotely important element of "Angel." ---- Why can't he become one now? Was Wesley an important element of "Angel" before Doyle died? Was Winifred? Lorne? Gunn? > > If the WB demeanded that Spike be a character on "Angel" then I wish, > as much as I liked "Home", that "Angel" would just have been cancelled. ---->Hunter

2003-05-12 08:02:59+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


AEJ wrote: >But why is Spike's presence critical to continuing "Angel"? My theory is that adding Spike was one of a few things (incl. JW's increased involvement) that reassured Fox that Angel might have a shot at being a viable commodity next year. I'm not saying Fox is right that Spike's presence will lure new viewers or otherwise improve the show -- I have no idea if this will be the case -- I am just saying I think that's why ME made James a regular, to get Fox to renew the show. I don't think it was just because they wanted to give their good pal a job. There are lots of actors they like, I'm sure, and they don't all get added as regulars to Angel. I'm not going to argue over whether adding Spike will hurt Angel because if you're convinced it will, then in your eyes, it will, no matter what they do with him. IMO the only thing that will hurt Angel artistically is bad writing, acting, and/or directing/ production. If the writing and directing suck, James won't help the show much and if the writing and directing are superb, James won't hurt it because he's a good actor. JMO. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 08:04:44-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


Lord Usher <lord_usher@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9379EA8D79C9houseofusher@216.40.28.70>... > AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in > news:b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de: > > > Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > > turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > > piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of > > "Buffy"? > > I'm no great fan of Spike right now, but I think there's at least a > chance he can become an interesting character again once ME pries him > away from his chastely beloved (*gag*) Buffy. Hell, it did wonders for > Angel. > > Plus... > > (Story idea for S5 below...) > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > .. > . > . > . > . > I think it could be very interesting if Spike shows up as an > *antagonist* figure to the newly establishment-aligned Fang Gang. How > ironic would it be if Angel Investigations is now the untrustworthy > faceless corporation, and Spike is the scrappy loner in a shitty little > office who's trying to stand up for right against their might? --- Then the it would be called "Spike" and not "Angel". The good guys get top billing. Spike may not agree with Angel's alliance with W&H, but they will be on the same side. ---->Hunter

2003-05-12 08:23:05+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: > AEJ wrote: > >>But why is Spike's presence critical to continuing "Angel"? > > My theory is that adding Spike was one of a few things (incl. JW's increased > involvement) that reassured Fox that Angel might have a shot at being a viable > commodity next year. I have no idea how you know this, or why you even theorize this. > I'm not saying Fox is right that Spike's presence will lure new viewers or > otherwise improve the show -- I have no idea if this will be the case -- I am > just saying I think that's why ME made James a regular, to get Fox to renew the > show. I don't think it was just because they wanted to give their good pal a > job. There are lots of actors they like, I'm sure, and they don't all get > added as regulars to Angel. But other than the central characters on "Buffy", who is really there to be added? James. I think it is pretty obvious what is going on. > I'm not going to argue over whether adding Spike will hurt Angel because if > you're convinced it will, then in your eyes, it will, no matter what they do > with him. IMO the only thing that will hurt Angel artistically is bad writing, > acting, and/or directing/ production. If the writing and directing suck, James > won't help the show much and if the writing and directing are superb, James > won't hurt it because he's a good actor. JMO. > > Rose > I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson. Of course, you are correct in that if that writing/directing/production sucks, then the show will suck. I could't agree with you more. That's a tautology, essentially. But the directing and producing, at least, heaven't sucked in years. THe writing is a different matter. And just because you believe JM is a good actor does NOT mean he will not hurt the show. I think Ralph Fiennes is a great actor, but I don't think he would add anymore to "Angel" than JM will. Actually, I wish they were adding Ralph Fiennes. If only. But adding a character from another show does not mean (no matter how good or bad his acting is) that the show will improve. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-12 08:29:00+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


the q is silent <j-wagner2@northwestern.edu> wrote: > AE Jabbour wrote: >> But why is Spike's presence critical to continuing "Angel"? I can't see anything >> but an opporunity to hurt the show. How is this character, who has not been >> on "Angel" in the four seasons it has existed, somehow critical to its >> existence now? > > Spike has appeared on Angel, in the show's third episode, but what Rose > insinuating was that perhaps the WB demanded that ME bring Spike to > Angel as a stipulation of renewing the show, since Spike is a popular > character among many fans and could increase ratings. No kidding. Duh. I did not mean that he has not been "shown" on the show, but that he has never been an even remotely important element of "Angel." If the WB demeanded that Spike be a character on "Angel" then I wish, as much as I liked "Home", that "Angel" would just have been cancelled. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-12 08:39:31-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com>)


In article <maystone1-1205030817320001@dhcp-0-3-93-6a-ee-d8.cpe.townisp.com>, maystone1@yahoo.com (Lee Kalwat) wrote: > Have a little faith, guys. (Mmmmmm, Faith.) Sorry, where was I? Oh, > yeah. I remember the predictions of doom and gloom when they brought > Wesley over and look how well that turned out. I was one of the many > screaming "Kill the baby!" when Connor first appeared, and I grew to love > the psycho little scamp. > > We don't know what Joss & Co. have in store for Spike on AtS. The show is > heading in a whole new direction with lots of room for character > development all around. Spike's "new" character (i.e., being soulled) > hasn't been set in stone yet, because of the Buffy arc. I'm happy to sit > back and watch what Joss has in mind. > > And thank whatever powers may be that Cordelia is no more. Everything > just moves much more smoothly without that character. > > maystone Yeah, exactly. The next season hasn't been written yet, and if the writing is good then I can't think of any potential character or plot point that in and of itself would ruin the show. Whenever I hear news about a specific thing that's going to happen on Angel or BtVS, I start thinking of a way it could happen that would be cool, and with the exception of the Willow magic addiction arc, the writers always do something even cooler than I could think of. So now I'm imagining scenes of Spike being Angel's adversary, maybe slipping back into evil, and perhaps Angel helping him redeem himself like he did with Faith. Of course, they'll probably do something totally different. Faith was kind of a scene chewer too, but her arrival on Angel didn't make the show all about her, so it doesn't have to with Spike either. -- -Michelle Levin (Luna) http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna In the beginning, there was nothing. Then it exploded.

2003-05-12 08:48:20-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (jasctt2001@hotmail.com)


> > Here's hoping for both. ATS deserves better than adding a one-dimensional > cliche and his co-dependent fan-atics. > > Doug > > Doug Sorry, DougEDoug. Spike is going to own your ass and all the naysayers. He rules and he will also rule on AtS. You people need to wake up and smell the blood. This is nothing but good news for TRUE Buffy fans, not you people who can't even acknowledge the one dynamic ME creation. Peace out.

2003-05-12 08:52:34-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (jasctt2001@hotmail.com)


It would be a kick if Emma Caulfield came over to > replace Ms Carpenter. Talk about things changing but remaining the > same. But Ms Caulfield sounds like she is weary of Anya and so it goes. > So I guess it will be Gwen. Well, hate to break it to you, but Anya dies in the last episode. Spike sacrifices himself to save the world. I bet he comes to Angel as a human, which is going to be trippy. Also, I think Anya was the worst mistake JW ever made on Buffy. Yes, she had a couple of good eps, but she was so wrong to be elevated to a regular member of the cast. Her arc, along with all post-season 5 Dawn stuff was the JTS moment.

2003-05-12 09:10:34-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - ("C.L. Lassiter" <seaelle@unc.edu>)


AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote: > Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: >> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast >> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ >> this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > Why, oh why, oh why? Actually, I see this as a good thing. First, I like the actor and the character, and I see this as a major fly-in-the-ointment possibility as so much of the prophecy centers on the vamp-with-a-soul. And now there are 2. cl

2003-05-12 10:03:34-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (possible buffy finale spoilers) - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


Barry wrote: > Didn't everyone moan about Wesley joining the cast when he first came > aboard? I'll cop to that. Yes, I wasn't excited about Wesley joining the Angel team. But that was because early Wesley was still a bumbling, incompetent boob--and I _hate_ comic relief characters. Always have. When they started turning Wesley into someone who -wasn't- just a waste of skin, I started to like him. > Like Wesley was when his character first joined the staff, the > re-souled (and possibly human) Spike is pretty much a blank slate > played by a fine actor. As long as Tim Minear and Joss Whedon > contribute to and carefully monitor the quality of the show, I > wouldn't worry much about which characters are added or removed. Think again. Dawn was Joss's idea, for God's sake. DAWN! And BtVS has _never_ recovered from that jump-the-shark idea. Angel has only, finally, and far too late, eased Connor out of the picture...maybe. Or maybe only relegated him to occasional appearances. Or maybe he'll _still_ be the focus of Angel's attention (and thus, by necessity, of the show). Gah. And now we're adding Spike. Who should have been staked in S2.

2003-05-12 10:11:36-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (busyba@yahoo.com)


> > While > "Angel" isn't a particularly expensive show to produce, it doesn't do very > well in repeats Did they ever even air any repeats??? I'm still waiting for Supersymmetry to get rerun (the only one I missed).

2003-05-12 10:24:01-05:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Christopher Rickey <crickey@midway.uchicago.edu>)


"Lord Usher" <lord_usher@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Xns9379EA8D79C9houseofusher@216.40.28.70... > AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in > news:b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de: > > > Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > > turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > > piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of > > "Buffy"? > > I'm no great fan of Spike right now, but I think there's at least a > chance he can become an interesting character again once ME pries him > away from his chastely beloved (*gag*) Buffy. Hell, it did wonders for > Angel. My thinking, too.

2003-05-12 10:40:07+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Kamil <kamil@cox.netted>)


"DoThompso" <dothompso@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030512023003.13222.00000170@mb-m14.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > >Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > Exactly, its like transplanting a cancer *into* a patient. Hopefully, Tim et > al. will treat Spike like the marginal player he is and keep Marsters from > chewing the scenery. Couldn't have said it better myself. God. I don't think it's *possible* to keep JM from chewing the scenery completely to shreds. And he's only going to stand out more when he's on the show same show as DB and AD, both of whom are beautiful, understated actors. So we'll have lovely, quiet intensity from Angel and Wes and Spike's usual oversexed hyper-French Poodle routine, Lovely. Maybe he'll die. Painfully. While fully clothed. -- Kamil "I'm tired of hearing about that Spike guy." "Empty Places" BtVS

2003-05-12 11:00:53+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


AEJ wrote: > >And just because you believe JM is a good actor does NOT mean he will not >hurt the >show. Truer words were never spoken. > >But adding a character from another show does not mean (no matter how good or >bad his acting is) that the show will improve. > Again, we are in perfect agreement. >-- >A.E. Jabbour > >"IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome >comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised >portion of mankind." > Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" > > > > > > Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 11:39:40-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (possible buffy finale - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


Rose wrote: >>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (possible buffy finale >>From: Mark Jones sinanju@pacifier.com >>Think again. Dawn was Joss's idea, for God's sake. DAWN! And BtVS has >>_never_ recovered from that jump-the-shark idea. Angel has only, >>finally, and far too late, eased Connor out of the picture...maybe. Or >>maybe only relegated him to occasional appearances. Or maybe he'll >>_still_ be the focus of Angel's attention (and thus, by necessity, of >>the show). Gah. >> >>And now we're adding Spike. Who should have been staked in S2. > > Hey, if I had to put up with Fred, Lorne and Connor, you can put up with Spike. I've already suffered enough, thanks. THREE &%($ing seasons of Dawn (well, two and change--I finally weaned myself away from BtVS this season). TWO &%*$ing seasons of Connor.

2003-05-12 12:43:54-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Houmatt00@yahoo.com)


AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... > Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > > You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > > regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > > this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > > Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > Why, oh why, oh why? If anyone hasn't already said it, then let me be the first: Fuck off and die. I'd bet I know why you dislike the character so much. It is because you (a guy) came into contact with Marsters and sent him some pictures of yourself doing disgusting things, saying you wanted to have sex with him, and he responded with a restraining order. You need to grow up, and shut up. The rest of us have better things to do than read the rantings of a mentally unstable fucktard.

2003-05-12 12:48:15-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Houmatt00@yahoo.com)


dothompso@aol.com (DoThompso) wrote in message news:<20030512031014.13222.00000172@mb-m14.aol.com>... > >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > >Date: 5/11/2003 11:55 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: > > <snip> > . > . > . > .. > . > . > . > >Me, I'm glad the show > >is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, > >they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. > > >Rose > > Here's hoping for both. ATS deserves better than adding a one-dimensional > cliche and his co-dependent fan-atics. > > Doug > I am certainly up to seeing you both stop watching the show, because the last thing Angel needs are one-dimensional viewers like yourselves.

2003-05-12 12:55:35-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Houmatt00@yahoo.com)


AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9niqn$kvdut$2@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... > Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: > >>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >>From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > >>Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >>Message-id: <b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > >> > >>Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > >>> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > >>> this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > >> > >>Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >>turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >>piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > >> > >>Why, oh why, oh why? > >> > > > > Probably because it was add Spike to Angel or Angel would be cancelled. I > > guess those who feel it would have been better for Angel to be cancelled than > > for Spike to be added can just pretend it was cancelled. Me, I'm glad the show > > is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, > > they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. > > Maybe I just don't get it. It's very possible that I haven't *GOT* it > since S2 "Buffy". I'd say you ***NEVER*** got it. > > But why is Spike's presence critical to continuing "Angel"? I can't see anything > but an opporunity to hurt the show. How is this character, who has not been > on "Angel" in the four seasons it has existed, somehow critical to its > existence now? > > I would think that no one is critical to its existence other than Angel, himself. > They got rid of Doyle, NEWS FLASH, you dumb shit! The reason why they got rid of Doyle is because the actor who played him, Glenn Quinn, had a drug problem! Or did you miss the news he died late last year from a drug overdose?

2003-05-12 13:00:48-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (stcoop@yahoo.com)


> Why do so many people dislike Spike? Or is it they dislike JM? > People dislike Spike because his character has taken so much screen time away from the rest of the characters on Buffy. People dislike Marsters because in terms of acting ability he's the William Shatner of the 21st century. People also dislike both Spike & JM for the lunatic fringe of obsessive fans they attract, who will be runing this newsgroup in approx. 4-5 months. That answer your question?

2003-05-12 13:02:09-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Houmatt00@yahoo.com)


Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message news:<3EBF5816.EA33C9F6@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>... > Rose wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > > >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > > >Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time > > >Message-id: <b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > > > > > >Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > > >> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > > >> this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > > > > > >Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > > >turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > > >piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > > > > >Why, oh why, oh why? > > > > > > > Probably because it was add Spike to Angel or Angel would be cancelled. I > > guess those who feel it would have been better for Angel to be cancelled than > > for Spike to be added can just pretend it was cancelled. Me, I'm glad the show > > is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, > > they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. > > Perhaps Spike will be leading the resistance against W&H! He has warned of the > consequences of powerful magic, and he would believe that Buffy would oppose > Angel's bargain with W&H. Actually, I don't see that. But I do see tension between Team Angel (specifically Wesley and Angel) and Spike. Here's why: Do you recall the prophecy from a couple years back, that basically said a vampire with a soul would stop the apocalypse and become human? Well, as of right now, Angel is not the only one sporting a soul, so the question is: What if the vampire in question is Spike?

2003-05-12 13:14:09-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Houmatt00@yahoo.com)


metrix007@yahoo.com (JoshB) wrote in message news:<c52a4e65.0305120650.385cd8c9@posting.google.com>... > AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... > > Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > > > regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > > > this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > > > > Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > > turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > > piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > Why do so many people dislike Spike? They don't. Like it or not, Spike was the most popular character of Buffy, mostly due to fan feedback. What these blithering monkeys don't seem to understand is Buffy is one of those rare critters in television; a successful seven-year run without jumping the shark ONCE. Certainly Marsters took a larger role in later seasons (after being introduced in S2 as the killer of two slayers), but unlike Star Trek: Voyager where they decided to completely center the show around Seven of Nine and the Doctor, Buffy will be leaving the airwaves as it came, an ensemble show with Sarah Michelle Gellar as its center, playing the title role.

2003-05-12 13:22:00+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com>)


Luna wrote: Faith was kind of a scene chewer too, but her > arrival on Angel didn't make the show all about her, so it doesn't have to > with Spike either. > I'm with you. I am very happy at the news that Angel is renewed _and_ that Spike will be part of it. I hope we move right away from lovelorn, naked Spike and get some snarky interaction with Angel. They were together for less time than you'd think; 20 years or so before the soul was revealed and Angel went off to atone, but you have the feeling that there's a lot of back story there. We might finally get to see discussion of what it feels/means for a vampire to have a soul, we can have some Wes/Spike chat as they have a fair bit in common. Spike doesn't have to be in it every week, he doesn't have to join them. He could be like Gwen, or Gunn in the early years. It's a bit soon to over react when nothing is known.JM is a good actor. If he gets storylines that let him show that, I don't see him being anything but an asset. It also allows for the Dru issue to be resolved/continued which would be interesting. Jane -- Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=231516

2003-05-12 13:35:02-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - ("C.L. Lassiter" <seaelle@unc.edu>)


Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com> wrote: > jasctt wrote: >> It would be a kick if Emma Caulfield came over to >> >>>replace Ms Carpenter. Talk about things changing but remaining the >>>same. But Ms Caulfield sounds like she is weary of Anya and so it goes. >>>So I guess it will be Gwen. >> >> >> Well, hate to break it to you, but snip > Then why did you? It's a spoiler. Use space, put in warnings, engage brain. Amen. I'd managed to miss everything until this. Damn but I wish people would be more considerate. cl, who was really disappointed he read that

2003-05-12 13:38:45+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


Spike was added to Angel for one reason: ratings and the fanbase he brings along with him. As for the Spike haters out there, I suspect you'll like the Spike seen on AtS, as without Buffy any romance will be probably downplayed in his character. I'm looking forward to him taking over yet another show. How long will it be before AtS is renamed? :)

2003-05-12 14:26:59+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: Ben Anspach Anspenremove@hotmail.com >Date: 5/12/2003 6:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <3EBFA0D0.3F666F2B@hotmail.com> > > >DoThompso wrote: >> > >> >From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) >> >> <snip> >> . >> . >> . >> .. >> . >> . >> . >> >Me, I'm glad the show >> >is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on >Buffy, >> >they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. >> >> >Rose >> >> Here's hoping for both. ATS deserves better than adding a one-dimensional >> cliche and his co-dependent fan-atics. > >Say, you're really David Fury aren't you? > Actually, that's not his attitude. Fury likes JM and Spike. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 15:18:53+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (John DiFool <sorry@spammerscrewedme.com>)


On 12 May 2003 07:50:23 -0700, metrix007@yahoo.com (JoshB) wrote: >Why do so many people dislike Spike? Or is it they dislike JM? > >No doubt, the angel team will change spike..I doubt he will be the >same character he is on buffy, just look at wesleys transformation. >> >> Why, oh why, oh why? > > >Because the show can only benifit from this. I like the actor and the role. Trading Cordy (and Connor!) for Spike is a net positive for me, even if it may be that two souled vampires is one too many... John DiFool

2003-05-12 15:19:07+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Kamil <kamil@cox.netted>)


"JoshB" <metrix007@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c52a4e65.0305120650.385cd8c9@posting.google.com... > AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... > > Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > > turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > > piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > Why do so many people dislike Spike? Or is it they dislike JM? Yes. I dislke JM's acting, a very great deal, and think it will only stick out more on Angel. I've not had any use for Spike since "Smashed". > > Why, oh why, oh why? > Because the show can only benifit from this. How? Like someone said, by grafting a large ugly tumor onto it? Spike may be a character in need of a new paint job and some work around the edges, but why in God's name do the Angel characters have to suffer in the cause of his *gag* redemption? What can he possibly add to the show besides leeched away screentime from the cast that is already there, all of whom already have their own stories and don't need his ugly bleached ass in the middle of them. Grr. Argh. -- Kamil "I'm tired of hearing about that Spike guy." "Empty Places" BtVS

2003-05-12 15:23:17+02:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


DoThompso wrote: > > >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > > <snip> > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > >Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > Exactly, its like transplanting a cancer *into* a patient. Hopefully, Tim et > al. will treat Spike like the marginal player he is and keep Marsters from > chewing the scenery. Unfortunately several Buffy writers are supposed to write for Angel next season. And while I agree with Lord Usher that removing Spike from Buffy should do a lot of good, the main problem (IMHO) with SPike these last few years has been that the Buffy writers simply loved Spike/JM too much to keep him in his designated role. Ben

2003-05-12 15:25:36+02:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


DoThompso wrote: > > >From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > > <snip> > . > . > . > .. > . > . > . > >Me, I'm glad the show > >is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, > >they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. > > >Rose > > Here's hoping for both. ATS deserves better than adding a one-dimensional > cliche and his co-dependent fan-atics. Say, you're really David Fury aren't you? Ben, who does wonder thinks that while Spike may have been treated badly on occasion, the show still has entirely about him.

2003-05-12 15:29:14+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (benvarkent@aol.com)


> As for the Spike haters out there, I suspect you'll like >the Spike seen on AtS, as without Buffy any romance will be probably >downplayed in his character. I'm looking forward to him taking over yet >another show. How long will it be before AtS is renamed? :) One hand giveth (Angel renewed), and one hand taketh away (With Spike but no Cordelia.) Sigh..... Ben Varkentine "Don't steal from anyone. Especially the best. Your own stuff will pale immeasurably."--Larry Gelbart Read my film, music and book reviews at http://ink19.com/ (new) & http://popmatters.com/ (archival)

2003-05-12 16:17:50+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (billones@radix.net)


In article <1ac7ce9d.0305120752.cb9dbdb@posting.google.com>, jasctt <jasctt2001@hotmail.com> wrote: >Well, hate to break it to you, but... You know, posting spoilers for a show without spoiler warnings is really rude. -- Jeremy Billones "I don't get called. I'm not the called type. I take messages for my boss -- *he* gets called."

2003-05-12 16:35:58+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k <o>, l, c, z, y, k@interaccess.com)


On 12 May 2003 01:29:19 -0500, Lord Usher <lord_usher@hotmail.com> wrote: >. >I think it could be very interesting if Spike shows up as an >*antagonist* figure to the newly establishment-aligned Fang Gang. How >ironic would it be if Angel Investigations is now the untrustworthy >faceless corporation, and Spike is the scrappy loner in a shitty little >office who's trying to stand up for right against their might? Hmmm. Could make n interesting contrast. I found the best scene in Buffy this years was when Faith and Spike the two "wild good guys" were catching up. It would be interesting to see the contrast between a oversexed, heavy smoking, heavy drinking Spike taking the task of doing good vs. a celibate, non-smoking tee-totaling Angel living in the grey areas.

2003-05-12 16:52:01+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com>)


jasctt wrote: > It would be a kick if Emma Caulfield came over to > >>replace Ms Carpenter. Talk about things changing but remaining the >>same. But Ms Caulfield sounds like she is weary of Anya and so it goes. >>So I guess it will be Gwen. > > > Well, hate to break it to you, but snip Then why did you? It's a spoiler. Use space, put in warnings, engage brain. Jane -- Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=231516

2003-05-12 17:06:42+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: metrix007@yahoo.com (JoshB) >Date: 5/12/2003 7:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <c52a4e65.0305120650.385cd8c9@posting.google.com> > >AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message >news:<b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... >> Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast >> > regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season >4........ >> > this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? >> >> Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >> turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >> piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > >Why do so many people dislike Spike? Or is it they dislike JM? > It only seems that way because people on this newsgroup dislike Spike. B/A shippers do as well. An awful lot of fans either like him or liked him until he got a soul. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 17:10:04+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Ben wrote: > the Buffy writers simply loved Spike/JM too much >to keep him in his designated role. They loved Spike so much they made him a punching bag, whipping boy, Buffy-doormat, and the only character besides Anya who had to pay in a major way for what he did. My fear isn't what Spike will do to Angel, but what some of the writers will do to Spike. Part of me is glad he's continuing, part of me wants the character to get his good ending and "peace out." Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 17:14:05+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (possible buffy finale - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (possible buffy finale >From: Mark Jones sinanju@pacifier.com >Date: 5/12/2003 10:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <3EBFD3E6.60207@pacifier.com> > >Barry wrote: >> Didn't everyone moan about Wesley joining the cast when he first came >> aboard? > >I'll cop to that. Yes, I wasn't excited about Wesley joining the Angel >team. But that was because early Wesley was still a bumbling, >incompetent boob--and I _hate_ comic relief characters. Always have. >When they started turning Wesley into someone who -wasn't- just a waste >of skin, I started to like him. > >> Like Wesley was when his character first joined the staff, the >> re-souled (and possibly human) Spike is pretty much a blank slate >> played by a fine actor. As long as Tim Minear and Joss Whedon >> contribute to and carefully monitor the quality of the show, I >> wouldn't worry much about which characters are added or removed. > >Think again. Dawn was Joss's idea, for God's sake. DAWN! And BtVS has >_never_ recovered from that jump-the-shark idea. Angel has only, >finally, and far too late, eased Connor out of the picture...maybe. Or >maybe only relegated him to occasional appearances. Or maybe he'll >_still_ be the focus of Angel's attention (and thus, by necessity, of >the show). Gah. > >And now we're adding Spike. Who should have been staked in S2. > Hey, if I had to put up with Fred, Lorne and Connor, you can put up with Spike. For a long time I found these characters to be so many dead weights on the show, though things are much better now. I like Fred and Connor as characters now; Lorne I've never disliked, just thought he shouldn't have been a regular. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 17:41:27+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (possible buffy finale spoilers) - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <949a35e8.0305120546.61bb71be@posting.google.com>, edelbeb@email.com (Barry) writes: >Didn't everyone moan about Wesley joining the cast when he first came >aboard? > Yes, but we didn't have a bunch of Buffy writers coming over. If you want to see what one can fear about Spike and BtVS writers, rewatch "She" and see how Marti wrote Wesley. Bleeeack! Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-12 17:41:28+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <t_GcnTRcTa5-pyKjXTWcqw@comcast.com>, "Rupert Pupkin" <gringo@yahoo.com> writes: >You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast >regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ Cordy appeared only three or four times this last season. Of those a couple were her out of body and a couple were her body in a coma. Not exactly much to do with performance when you're not given anything to do. OTOH, I think Charisma did fine as Cordelius. >this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? Naw, the pathetic thing is that you're still going to be posting. Oh well. Good with bad, I guess. Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-12 17:41:29+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <32f29bdf.0305120704.321edfa4@posting.google.com>, buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) writes: >Lord Usher <lord_usher@hotmail.com> wrote in message >news:<Xns9379EA8D79C9houseofusher@216.40.28.70>... >> AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in >> news:b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de: >> >> > Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >> > turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >> > piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of >> > "Buffy"? >> >> I'm no great fan of Spike right now, but I think there's at least a >> chance he can become an interesting character again once ME pries him >> away from his chastely beloved (*gag*) Buffy. Hell, it did wonders for >> Angel. Any male is much better off and more interesting away from the Hell Bitch of Sunnydale. Angel, Riley, Spike, Xander, Giles, etc. >> Plus... >> >> (Story idea for S5 below...) >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> . >> .. >> . >> . >> . >> . >> I think it could be very interesting if Spike shows up as an >> *antagonist* figure to the newly establishment-aligned Fang Gang. How >> ironic would it be if Angel Investigations is now the untrustworthy >> faceless corporation, and Spike is the scrappy loner in a shitty little >> office who's trying to stand up for right against their might? >--- >Then the it would be called "Spike" and not "Angel". The good guys get >top billing. Cordelia got top billing is S2? > Spike may not agree with Angel's alliance with W&H, but >they will be on the same side. No, Spike would be the counterpoint to Angel. The action will focus on Angel and his gradual corruption. Similar to my story speculation, it would be more of Spike joins Angel to fight evil and breaks away about midseason. The focus is still on Angel, just like it was when Wesley broke off, but you use Spike as a counterpoint. It would be the perfect time for Cordelia to be brought back and join Spike and others against the W&H Angel (cause ultimately you can tell who is taking over whom by two factors in business, which name goes first and whose headquarters the new company moves into). Add in a reconstituted Connor, and you have some interesting conflicts. Especially for Angel. Charisma gets all the mommy time needed, you get Spike to have a meaningful role, the focus is still on Angel and gang, and we might get a arc that makes some sense. (The bad thing about the renewal, I'll actually have to do my arc reviews. Cause they ain't gonna be pretty.) Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-12 17:47:33+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (possible buffy finale spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (possible buffy finale >spoilers) >From: sweick@aol.com (SWeick) >Date: 5/12/2003 10:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030512134127.18772.00000539@mb-m16.aol.com> > >In article <949a35e8.0305120546.61bb71be@posting.google.com>, >edelbeb@email.com >(Barry) writes: > >>Didn't everyone moan about Wesley joining the cast when he first came >>aboard? >> > >Yes, but we didn't have a bunch of Buffy writers coming over. > >If you want to see what one can fear about Spike and BtVS writers, >rewatch "She" and see how Marti wrote Wesley. Bleeeack! > Marti will be busy with her own series, Jane Espenson will be busy with Gilmore Girls. That leaves David Fury, Ultimate Drew, Drew Greenberg, Rebecca Kirshner, and... who else? Steve DeKnight's done ok on Angel. > > >Stephen Weick > ><Fill In The Blank> > > > > > > Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 17:50:05-05:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <maystone1-1205030817320001@dhcp-0-3-93-6a-ee-d8.cpe.townisp.com>, maystone1@yahoo.com (Lee Kalwat) wrote: > Have a little faith, guys. (Mmmmmm, Faith.) Sorry, where was I? Oh, > yeah. I remember the predictions of doom and gloom when they brought > Wesley over and look how well that turned out. I was one of the many > screaming "Kill the baby!" when Connor first appeared, and I grew to love > the psycho little scamp. > > We don't know what Joss & Co. have in store for Spike on AtS. The show is > heading in a whole new direction with lots of room for character > development all around. Spike's "new" character (i.e., being soulled) > hasn't been set in stone yet, because of the Buffy arc. I'm happy to sit > back and watch what Joss has in mind. > > And thank whatever powers may be that Cordelia is no more. Everything > just moves much more smoothly without that character. Gotta disagree on two points: I *never* grew to love Connor. I hated all the goo-goo nonsense when he was a baby and everyone was constantly drooling all over him. And I've consistently wanted to just strangle him since he came back as the sulking teenager from hell. The *only* Connor scenes I've enjoyed were when Faith was putting the little shit in his place, either verbally or with her fists. Second, Cordelia to me was the heart of the show. Granted, lately her character has been adrift due to the Angel-world ascension to heaven stuff and the real-world issues of Cam's pregnancy but when I re-watch my season 1 DVDs, I'm struck by how much both the character and the actress brought to the show.

2003-05-12 17:52:06-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 12 May 2003 21:31:07 GMT, sfryar@aol.comSPAMIN8R (Stephie) wrote: >It'll be interesting to see Spike and Angel together, especially after the >events in the "Angel" season finale. > >Also, Spike is a trip-and-a-half to watch (imo), so this could put a little bit >of fun back into the show as well. Just curiuos what what incarnation of Spike are you talking about? Pre chip Spike certainly added a lot to Angel when he appeared. On the other hand, have you been watching Buffy for the past few seasons? How much "fun" did you think Spike added to that? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-05-12 18:07:42-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (ladypeyton@yahoo.com)


> > > Why, oh why, oh why? > > > Because the show can only benifit from this. > > How? Like someone said, by grafting a large ugly tumor onto it? Spike may be > a character in need of a new paint job and some work around the edges, but > why in God's name do the Angel characters have to suffer in the cause of his > *gag* redemption? What can he possibly add to the show besides leeched away > screentime from the cast that is already there, all of whom already have > their own stories and don't need his ugly bleached ass in the middle of > them. You mean the characters that couldn't pull in the ratings to ensure Angel's renewal? Those characters? I love AtS and have since S1 Ep1 but none of the characters already on AtS pulled in the kind of hype that Spike did over on BtVS. Who was listed as the best Sci Fi character save Dr Who in a premier British SciFi mag? Who was listed as one of the 50 best things on TV in TV Guide? Who has an obsessive fanbase who will follow him anywhere and whom a majority *don't* already watch AtS? Go over to SciFi.com's polls page this week (the poll's from March and will fall off the page after this week) and look at the highest voted poll there. It's the one asking who the star of the spinoff should be and it pulled in a whopping 100,000+ votes of which 49% were for Spike. The average response for the other polls is *nowhere* near 100,000. Spike is an artistic, commercial and ratings coupe for AtS. His appearance on AtS will focus the media's eye on the show and his appearance, along with Smallville as a lead in will breathe new life into a once flagging series. If you hate the idea *so* much then don't watch. But don't wish cancellation on us fans whom love the show already but are even happier that JM will be jumping ship. Peyton

2003-05-12 18:20:20+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (johnnydarko1979@aol.com)


>Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? a lot of people I know would've stopped watching Buffy after they graduated, but Spike gave them a reason to keep watching. Ratings for Angel will be higher than Angel and Buffy combined because I know a lot of Spike fans who don't watch Angel, but will certainly be watching now. Are you jealous that Spike is the only male Buffyverse character who actually rivals Angel in popularity? Come on, it will be fun seeing them both on the same show again.

2003-05-12 18:32:43+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (johnnydarko1979@aol.com)


why does everyone hate Spike? Sorry that Spike took Angel's spot in a lot of peoples hearts. I don't see why Boreanez will feel any more intimidated working with him than Gellar was working with Alyson Hannigan, who IMO, was just as good as SMG. Spike and Angel on the same show will really blow the ratings through the roof. Come on, you guys probably thought Wesley would be a bad addition after Doyle too, didn't you?

2003-05-12 18:34:52+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (johnnydarko1979@aol.com)


>Sorry, DougEDoug. Spike is going to own your ass and all the >naysayers. He rules and he will also rule on AtS. You people need to >wake up and smell the blood. This is nothing but good news for TRUE >Buffy fans, not you people who can't even acknowledge the one dynamic >ME creation. Peace out. > > > I agree, I don't think Spike would be worse than Connor was. I've told a few friends who have never watched Angel, but love Buffy about Marsters, and they are all excited. Angel will pick up a lot of viewers next season. For every Spike hater, there's 10 Spike lovers. It will definately boost the dynamic of the show.

2003-05-12 19:26:30+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: johnnydarko1979@aol.com (JohnnyDarko1979) >Date: 5/12/2003 11:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030512143243.26854.00000280@mb-m03.aol.com> > >why does everyone hate Spike? Sorry that Spike took Angel's spot in a lot >of peoples hearts. I don't see why Boreanez will feel any more intimidated >working with him than Gellar was working with Alyson Hannigan, who IMO, was >just as good as SMG. > Boreanaz expressed enthusiasm about Marsters joining the show. The article I read (sorry I don't have a link) said he enjoys working with Marsters. He was quoted as saying something like, Spike has been in a small town long enough. It's time to come to the city and play with the big boys, or something. If I didn't know better I'd think he was implying Spike's too good for Sunnydale. ;) Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 20:28:03+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: > > Spike is a very strong character...JM is an outstanding actor and an > only be an asset to the show. And Sydney Bristow is a strong character, and Jennifer Garner is a, well I won't say outstanding, but good actress. Should we add her to the show as well? I am not criticizing JM's acting skills. Actually, I think he is one of the few on BtVS who hasn't seemed entirely bored for a while now. I like his acting, and I used to like the character of Spike. But, none of that matters. That's not the point. The reason I don't like the idea is simply this: His ongoing presence on BtVS hurt the show. Obviously, it is not all due to Spike's presence. But his presence was a symptom of all that was wrong-headed about the directions the show took. His presence didn't make any sense to me then, and it doesn't now. The only way it makes *ANY* sense is that some fans really, really like him. Let's face it, Spike joining the cast of "Angel" *could* work. It might all be flowers and singing in the end. But that doesn't change the fact that it is not a good idea. Lots of bad ideas work out in the end. Here's to hoping that despite themselves, ME produces an entertaining and interesting show next year. I am truly glad it was renewed, after "Home". But if it is more of the same from S3-S4, then to hell with them, and their show. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-12 20:29:09+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Tammy Stephanie Davis <tsdnospam@mspacman.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>)


JohnnyDarko1979 <johnnydarko1979@aol.com> wrote: : why does everyone hate Spike? Sorry that Spike took Angel's spot in a lot : of peoples hearts. I don't see why Boreanez will feel any more intimidated : working with him than Gellar was working with Alyson Hannigan, who IMO, was : just as good as SMG. : Spike and Angel on the same show will really blow the ratings through the roof. : Come on, you guys probably thought Wesley would be a bad addition after : Doyle too, didn't you? I don't hate Spike. But I do hate the increasingly lame reasons Buffy had for leaving him alive over the years as well as for the way that she used him for her own debasement in season six - which was out and out ugly. I do miss the menance, humor and delight Spike had in his evil indulgences and I think the show, in general, suffered from the void that was left when Spike became less and less evil.

2003-05-12 20:35:19+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Reed Richards <Houmatt00@yahoo.com> wrote: > AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9niqn$kvdut$2@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... >> Maybe I just don't get it. It's very possible that I haven't *GOT* it >> since S2 "Buffy". > > I'd say you ***NEVER*** got it. That's entirely possible. Maybe the show I watched the first three seasons of BtVS and the first two seasons of AtS were completely different shows than I was seeing. I sort of doubt it, but it's entirely possible, I guess. I am sort of interested in why you think this, though. No, wait, no I'm not. >> I would think that no one is critical to its existence other than Angel, himself. >> They got rid of Doyle, > > NEWS FLASH, you dumb shit! The reason why they got rid of Doyle > is because the actor who played him, Glenn Quinn, had a drug problem! > Or did you miss the news he died late last year from a drug overdose? Hmm. I know all of this. And I never said that they shouldn't have gotten rid of Doyle. And when did I ever say that I did feel that way. I simply stated the fact that Doyle was removed from the show, and that Cordelia will now have a smaller role. This was to make the point that no one, other than Angel himself, is "critical" to the show's continuation. I think you need to read more carefully before calling people names, honestly. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-12 20:35:27+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Tammy Stephanie Davis <tsdnospam@mspacman.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>)


Reed Richards <Houmatt00@yahoo.com> wrote: : AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... :> Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: :> > You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast :> > regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ :> > this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? :> :> Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally :> turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that :> piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? :> :> Why, oh why, oh why? : If anyone hasn't already said it, then let me be the first: Fuck : off and die. : I'd bet I know why you dislike the character so much. It is because : you (a guy) came into contact with Marsters and sent him some pictures : of yourself doing disgusting things, saying you wanted to have sex : with him, and he responded with a restraining order. : You need to grow up, and shut up. The rest of us have better things : to do than read the rantings of a mentally unstable fucktard. If anyone is in need of some kind of restraint, its you. There was absolutely no reason for you to go off on anyone like that as you just did. <PLONK!>

2003-05-12 20:46:37+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Lord Usher <lord_usher@hotmail.com> wrote: > AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in > news:b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de: > >> Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >> turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >> piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of >> "Buffy"? > > I'm no great fan of Spike right now, but I think there's at least a > chance he can become an interesting character again once ME pries him > away from his chastely beloved (*gag*) Buffy. Hell, it did wonders for > Angel. Getting away from the writers of "Buffy" is the most important thing. But I still don't think that it will matter, since I believe that the 'Spike virus' will infect the "Angel" show just as it did the "Buffy" show. > Plus... > > (Story idea for S5 below...) > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > .. > . > . > . > . > I think it could be very interesting if Spike shows up as an > *antagonist* figure to the newly establishment-aligned Fang Gang. How > ironic would it be if Angel Investigations is now the untrustworthy > faceless corporation, and Spike is the scrappy loner in a shitty little > office who's trying to stand up for right against their might? Ah, see, this is exactly what I mean. So, Spike will be the the good guy attempting to show Angel&Co. the mistakes they've made. Great. That's exactly what I don't want to see, and exactly what troubles me about his presence. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-12 20:54:16+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Renee <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote: > I hope they don't just have Spike sit around shirtless. I don't mind > the being beat down parts, since that can develop the character. But, > don't treat him like eye candy. He's more interesting than that. Not > that I hate seeing his chest - it just gets a little too much when > it's obvious that it's not needed for the scene. Spike shirtless > because the First is going to cut his chest - important. Spike > shirtless in order to talk to Faith - not important. No, but Faith shirtless in order to talk to me - VERY important. > I'm interested in the past relationship of Spike and Angel (I'm not > talking about a romantic past). I think their past has already been made pretty clear by now. We've seen them in the past, and in the present. I don't think there's any reason to spend time on exposition vis-a-vis their relationship. > Will they fanwank why Spike called > Angel his sire (and later showing that Drusilla was Spike's sire)? Continuity errors like that are best left alone. It's like when you are a child, and you lie to your parents. The more you try to make the lie sound true, the deeper into trouble you get. > I'm also interested in Angel's feelings of Spike also having a soul > (that is, if he still has one on Angel). Ugh. Angel's feelings are most often left unsaid. I can't see much development on this issue. It's a line or two, certainly not an episode. So, then what? > Of course, I'm one of those > "Spike lovers" who ruined Buffy - all for checkbones. Yes, yes you are. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-12 21:15:53+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


JoshB <metrix007@yahoo.com> wrote: > AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... >> Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast >> > regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ >> > this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? >> >> Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >> turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >> piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > Why do so many people dislike Spike? Or is it they dislike JM? I don't even know James Marsters, so it is pretty difficult for me to even have an opinion on the man. As to the character of Spike, I dislike him because I feel that after a certain point the entire raison d'etre of BtVS became Spike. I am not even sure why they continued calling it "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". That character was like a virus. > No doubt, the angel team will change spike..I doubt he will be the > same character he is on buffy, just look at wesleys transformation. I don't want a changed Spike. I want no Spike. Wesley was different in that he didn't become the focus of "Buffy". He never was much of a character at all. Spike has a huge burden of history. And I don't want that burden weighing down the show. It's that simple. >> >> Why, oh why, oh why? > > > Because the show can only benifit from this. Or not. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-12 21:19:50+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


JohnnyDarko1979 <johnnydarko1979@aol.com> wrote: >>Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >>turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >>piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > a lot of people I know would've stopped watching Buffy after they graduated, > but Spike gave them a reason to keep watching. Yes, and "Buffy" certainly has had the ratings to show it! > Ratings for Angel will be higher than Angel and Buffy combined because I know a > lot of Spike fans who don't watch Angel, but will certainly be watching now. Your logic does not resemble our Earth logic. > Are you jealous that Spike is the only male Buffyverse character who actually > rivals Angel in popularity? Come on, it will be fun seeing them both on the > same show again. I'm jealous? I think not. I don't care about popularity of the characters. I want good stories. Spike is a problem character, and "Angel" just got rid of one. There is no need to add another. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-12 21:20:37+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Reed Richards <Houmatt00@yahoo.com> wrote: > AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... >> Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: [lovely, glowing response snipped] Thank you. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-12 21:31:07+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sfryar@aol.comSPAMIN8R)


>> From Variety: Posted: Sun., May 11, 2003, 10:00pm PT >> >> NBC extends 'ER' deal, 'Angel' stays aloft >> Medical drama scheduled through 2006 >> > >Here is the link: ><http://www.variety.com/index.asp? >layout=upsell_article&articleID=VR1117886028&categoryID=14&cs=1> > >You need to be a subscriber to Variety to read the article, but the >headline is as posted. Thanks, Steven, for giving us the text. > >I will miss Charisma Carpenter as a series regular. I hope that we will >get some closure on Cordelia's plight. I hope so, too. Cordy gave the show some interesting humor, and that will be missed. >As for James Marsters, it will >be a trip having him on board. It would be humorous if Spike rails on >Angel for selling out to the senior partners. You know in a "how things >change but stay the same" sort of way. It'll be interesting to see Spike and Angel together, especially after the events in the "Angel" season finale. Also, Spike is a trip-and-a-half to watch (imo), so this could put a little bit of fun back into the show as well. >If Ms Carpenter is on her way out, that will make the cast light with >female representation. Perhaps Alexa Davalos as Gwen Raiden will try to >fill the void. I'd love to see Gwen pop up every now and then; she'd make things interesting. >It would be a kick if Emma Caulfield came over to >replace Ms Carpenter. Talk about things changing but remaining the >same. But Ms Caulfield sounds like she is weary of Anya and so it goes. >So I guess it will be Gwen. Which isn't all bad, I suppose... >I hope there are no last minute changes to the schedule a la Dark Angel. >Anyway, for now, this is good news. Enjoy it gang! I sure am! :-) Stephie

2003-05-12 22:27:55-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (pegasuskid@earthlink.net)


AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<b9nll8$kvdut$9@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>... > Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: > > AEJ wrote: > > > >>But why is Spike's presence critical to continuing "Angel"? > > > > My theory is that adding Spike was one of a few things (incl. JW's increased > > involvement) that reassured Fox that Angel might have a shot at being a viable > > commodity next year. > > I have no idea how you know this, or why you even theorize this. > > > I'm not saying Fox is right that Spike's presence will lure new viewers or > > otherwise improve the show -- I have no idea if this will be the case -- I am > > just saying I think that's why ME made James a regular, to get Fox to renew the > > show. I don't think it was just because they wanted to give their good pal a > > job. There are lots of actors they like, I'm sure, and they don't all get > > added as regulars to Angel. > > But other than the central characters on "Buffy", who is really there to be > added? James. I think it is pretty obvious what is going on. > > > I'm not going to argue over whether adding Spike will hurt Angel because if > > you're convinced it will, then in your eyes, it will, no matter what they do > > with him. IMO the only thing that will hurt Angel artistically is bad writing, > > acting, and/or directing/ production. If the writing and directing suck, James > > won't help the show much and if the writing and directing are superb, James > > won't hurt it because he's a good actor. JMO. > > > > Rose > > I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson. > > Of course, you are correct in that if that writing/directing/production sucks, then > the show will suck. I could't agree with you more. That's a tautology, essentially. > > But the directing and producing, at least, heaven't sucked in years. THe writing > is a different matter. > > And just because you believe JM is a good actor does NOT mean he will not hurt the > show. I think Ralph Fiennes is a great actor, but I don't think he would add > anymore to "Angel" than JM will. Actually, I wish they were adding Ralph Fiennes. > If only. > > But adding a character from another show does not mean (no matter how good or > bad his acting is) that the show will improve. But adding his character doesn't mean it won't improve or the ratings won't go up. If you don't like him being there than by all means don't watch. I have always liked Spike and I am glad he will still be around.

2003-05-12 22:47:10+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: EGK me@privacy.net >Date: 5/12/2003 2:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <qp50cvk765nlovi88cu5vqtk72mj2co7pk@4ax.com> > >On 12 May 2003 21:31:07 GMT, sfryar@aol.comSPAMIN8R (Stephie) wrote: > > >>It'll be interesting to see Spike and Angel together, especially after the >>events in the "Angel" season finale. >> >>Also, Spike is a trip-and-a-half to watch (imo), so this could put a little >bit >>of fun back into the show as well. > >Just curiuos what what incarnation of Spike are you talking about? Pre >chip Spike certainly added a lot to Angel when he appeared. > >On the other hand, have you been watching Buffy for the past few seasons? >How much "fun" did you think Spike added to that? > He was fun in Life Serial, Entropy, and the nerd scenes in Smashed in S6. He was fun in Get it Done, Storyteller and Empty Places in S7. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 22:55:20+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: Ben Anspach Anspenremove@hotmail.com >Date: 5/12/2003 1:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <3EC00A93.64F6796B@hotmail.com> > > > >Rose wrote: >> >> Ben wrote: >> >> > the Buffy writers simply loved Spike/JM too much >> >to keep him in his designated role. >> >> They loved Spike so much they made him a punching bag, whipping boy, >> Buffy-doormat, and the only character besides Anya who had to pay in a >major >> way for what he did. > >From the viewpoint of his character, maybe (though I think ti really >isn't that bad. So he was insane for a while. It was still a heroically >insanity). I'm not talking about the insanity which, before it was overdone, was an excellent touch. >But from a meta viewpoint his character has been getting all >the attention. Almost anything that wasn't about Buffy was about Spike >(especially since Buffy is in such large >ways about Spike these days). Of course, nothing about Anya killing people, Willow's romance with Kennedy, Andrew's redemption story, and the gaggle of SITs. No, Anya had only two scenes all season, her scenes with Spike. >Wood? Well of course his whole arc has >to be about Spike. For about three or four episodes. >Giles? Apart >from being away without explanations he's all about getting rid of >Spike. For one whole episode. Otherwise, he's about tracking down SITs, being the voice of doom and being antagonistic to Buffy (and not just re Spike). >Anya? Well she gets to come on the >Spike so he can turn her down. She also gets to kill 12 frat boys, redeem herself, tell Andrew to masturbate, diss Buffy to her face twice and have intercourse with Xander. Two incidents of hitting on Spike don't really tip the scales. >We have Faith have a soft core talk with >SPike while ignoring most of >the issues there are between her and >Xander, Willow and Giles. Yes, there was that little scene when the spinoff was in the spinoffing. But she moved on to Wood in the twinkling of an eye. Now she's all about being worshipped by the SITs and having a fling with Wood. >Buffy can >only trust him, for some unfathomable reason (it vaguely worked when >only he could understand her in season six. at least her friends where >the ones who had resurrected her it makes absolutely no sense now). > Buffy has regressed to her S6 head space with the exception that she is a megalomaniacal general instead of a suicidal dropout. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 22:56:51+02:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


Rose wrote: > > Ben wrote: > > > the Buffy writers simply loved Spike/JM too much > >to keep him in his designated role. > > They loved Spike so much they made him a punching bag, whipping boy, > Buffy-doormat, and the only character besides Anya who had to pay in a major > way for what he did.

2003-05-12 22:57:44+02:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


Rose wrote: > > >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >From: Ben Anspach Anspenremove@hotmail.com > >Date: 5/12/2003 6:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <3EBFA0D0.3F666F2B@hotmail.com> > > > > > >DoThompso wrote: > >> > > > >> >From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > >> > >> <snip> > >> . > >> . > >> . > >> .. > >> . > >> . > >> . > >> >Me, I'm glad the show > >> >is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on > >Buffy, > >> >they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. > >> > >> >Rose > >> > >> Here's hoping for both. ATS deserves better than adding a one-dimensional > >> cliche and his co-dependent fan-atics. > > > >Say, you're really David Fury aren't you? > > > > Actually, that's not his attitude. Fury likes JM and Spike. Oh, I know. I just meant his dissing of SPike lovers seemed awfully familiar. :) Ben

2003-05-12 23:03:33+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net >Date: 5/12/2003 1:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <b9p04j$lssqs$1@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > >LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: >> >> Spike is a very strong character...JM is an outstanding actor and an >> only be an asset to the show. > >And Sydney Bristow is a strong character, and Jennifer Garner is a, well >I won't say outstanding, but good actress. Should we add her to the show as >well? > If ME were to add Jennifer Garner to the cast I would not have an apoplectic attack if that is what you are asking. I guess I have a hard time sympathizing because I went through my time of wanting to pound a nail into my skull over the constant presence of Fred and Connor on the show, but somehow, I and the show survived, and the world didn't end. Nor did I post 76 times about how the sky was falling because of Connor and Fred. First, because I didn't want to appear to be bashing the actors, whom I did not blame, rather I blamed the characterizations. Eventually, when the characterizations improved, I came to like Connor and Fred. I never ever thought that would happen. It's a miracle. Before you know it I'll be a Kennedy fan. And I'm not bashing Ms. Limon, from all accounts she is a very sweet person. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 23:05:12+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net >Date: 5/12/2003 2:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <b9p35l$lssqs$8@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > >JohnnyDarko1979 <johnnydarko1979@aol.com> wrote: >>>Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >>>turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >>>piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? >> >> a lot of people I know would've stopped watching Buffy after they >graduated, >> but Spike gave them a reason to keep watching. > >Yes, and "Buffy" certainly has had the ratings to show it! > >> Ratings for Angel will be higher than Angel and Buffy combined because I >know a >> lot of Spike fans who don't watch Angel, but will certainly be watching >now. > >Your logic does not resemble our Earth logic. > >> Are you jealous that Spike is the only male Buffyverse character who >actually >> rivals Angel in popularity? Come on, it will be fun seeing them both on >the >> same show again. > >I'm jealous? I think not. I don't care about popularity of the characters. >I want good stories. Spike is a problem character, and "Angel" just got >rid of one. There is no need to add >another. What character did Angel get rid of? I thought Variety said Connor was returning but not as a regular. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 23:06:40+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>ubject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: Houmatt00@yahoo.com (Reed Richards) >Date: 5/12/2003 12:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <9447e9d5.0305121148.15639725@posting.google.com> > >dothompso@aol.com (DoThompso) wrote in message >news:<20030512031014.13222.00000172@mb-m14.aol.com>... >> >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >> >From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) >> >Date: 5/11/2003 11:55 PM Pacific Standard Time >> >Message-id: >> >> <snip> >> . >> . >> . >> .. >> . >> . >> . >> >Me, I'm glad the show >> >is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on >Buffy, >> >they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. >> >> >Rose >> >> Here's hoping for both. ATS deserves better than adding a one-dimensional >> cliche and his co-dependent fan-atics. >> >> Doug >> > > I am certainly up to seeing you both stop watching the show, >because the last thing Angel needs are one-dimensional viewers like >yourselves. > Actually, every TV show needs all the viewers it can get who are the kinds of people who buy stuff. No matter how obnoxious, one dimensional and generally worthless Doug and I might be, if we had Neilson boxes, ME would be thrilled to have us watching. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-12 23:11:46+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: BTR1701 BTR1702@ix.netcom.com >Date: 5/12/2003 3:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <BTR1702-AD159B.17500512052003@nntp.ix.netcom.com> > >In article ><maystone1-1205030817320001@dhcp-0-3-93-6a-ee-d8.cpe.townisp.com>, >maystone1@yahoo.com (Lee Kalwat) wrote: > >> Have a little faith, guys. (Mmmmmm, Faith.) Sorry, where was I? Oh, >> yeah. I remember the predictions of doom and gloom when they brought >> Wesley over and look how well that turned out. I was one of the many >> screaming "Kill the baby!" when Connor first appeared, and I grew to love >> the psycho little scamp. >> >> We don't know what Joss & Co. have in store for Spike on AtS. The show is >> heading in a whole new direction with lots of room for character >> development all around. Spike's "new" character (i.e., being soulled) >> hasn't been set in stone yet, because of the Buffy arc. I'm happy to sit >> back and watch what Joss has in mind. >> >> And thank whatever powers may be that Cordelia is no more. Everything >> just moves much more smoothly without that character. > >Gotta disagree on two points: I *never* grew to love Connor. I hated all >the goo-goo nonsense when he was a baby and everyone was constantly >drooling all over him. And I've consistently wanted to just strangle him >since he came back as the sulking teenager from hell. The *only* Connor >scenes I've enjoyed were when Faith was putting the little shit in his >place, either verbally or with her fists. > >Second, Cordelia to me was the heart of >the show. Is the heart. Is. There is nothing to indicate she has left the show. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-13 00:10:19+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: >> >>I'm jealous? I think not. I don't care about popularity of the characters. >>I want good stories. Spike is a problem character, and "Angel" just got >>rid of one. There is no need to add >another. > > What character did Angel get rid of? I thought Variety said Connor was > returning but not as a regular. > > Rose > I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson. I'm not sure about Connor's return. I disliked the character all the way up to, but not including, the end. I hope they leave him the way he is, but even if he returns, it won't be the same (I hope). I read the piece, but must have missed that he was returning. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-13 01:04:07+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (John DiFool <sorry@spammerscrewedme.com>)


On 12 May 2003 13:35:02 -0400, "C.L. Lassiter" <seaelle@unc.edu> wrote: >Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com> wrote: >> jasctt wrote: >>> It would be a kick if Emma Caulfield came over to >>> >>>>replace Ms Carpenter. Talk about things changing but remaining the >>>>same. But Ms Caulfield sounds like she is weary of Anya and so it goes. >>>>So I guess it will be Gwen. >>> >>> >>> Well, hate to break it to you, but snip > >> Then why did you? It's a spoiler. Use space, put in warnings, engage brain. > > Amen. I'd managed to miss everything until this. Damn but I >wish people would be more considerate. > >cl, who was really disappointed he read that Don't be. Half of these so-called spoilers turn out to be bogus anyway. Plus (big clue) said spoiler kind of contradicts what we just found out vis a vis next season's Angel... John DiFool

2003-05-13 01:39:25+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"AE Jabbour" <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:b9nm0b$kvdut$10@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de... > the q is silent <j-wagner2@northwestern.edu> wrote: > > AE Jabbour wrote: > > >> But why is Spike's presence critical to continuing "Angel"? I can't see anything > >> but an opporunity to hurt the show. How is this character, who has not been > >> on "Angel" in the four seasons it has existed, somehow critical to its > >> existence now? > > > > Spike has appeared on Angel, in the show's third episode, but what Rose > > insinuating was that perhaps the WB demanded that ME bring Spike to > > Angel as a stipulation of renewing the show, since Spike is a popular > > character among many fans and could increase ratings. > > No kidding. > > Duh. > > I did not mean that he has not been "shown" on the show, but that he has > never been an even remotely important element of "Angel." > > If the WB demeanded that Spike be a character on "Angel" then I wish, > as much as I liked "Home", that "Angel" would just have been cancelled. Ditto. Let Angel go out while still at the top of the game rather than let Spike drag it into a quagmire. I know my enjoyment of the show will go downhill. I watch Angel because of Angel and DB. It's the reason I started watching Buffy in the first place. And do you realize that now that Buffy is ending that all those posters on ATBVS will probably subscribe to ATA and make this NG as noisy and as impossible to post to as ATBVS is now. Which is the reason I haven't read that other NG for two years. -- Best regards Linda Mmmmmm. Angel

2003-05-13 01:39:26+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"AE Jabbour" <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:b9niqn$kvdut$2@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de... > Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: > >>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >>From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > >>Date: 5/11/2003 11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >>Message-id: <b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > >> > >>Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>> You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > >>> regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > >>> this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > >> > >>Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >>turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >>piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > >> > >>Why, oh why, oh why? > >> > > > > Probably because it was add Spike to Angel or Angel would be cancelled. I > > guess those who feel it would have been better for Angel to be cancelled than > > for Spike to be added can just pretend it was cancelled. Me, I'm glad the show > > is continuing, but if Spike is treated like crap on Angel as he was on Buffy, > > they might lose a viewer in me, at any rate. > > Maybe I just don't get it. It's very possible that I haven't *GOT* it > since S2 "Buffy". > > But why is Spike's presence critical to continuing "Angel"? I can't see anything > but an opporunity to hurt the show. How is this character, who has not been > on "Angel" in the four seasons it has existed, somehow critical to its > existence now? > > I would think that no one is critical to its existence other than Angel, himself. > They got rid of Doyle, they are obviously moving Cordelia at least to a > minor role. It's hard for me to imagine that someone is *critical* to the > show being renewed, other than Angel. I can see no reason to bring Spike to Angel other than to piss off viewers like me. It's not just the fact that I hate the Spike character but I see nothing Spike can bring to Angel other than to eschew more scenery and take stories away from the other cast members. Let Spike die in the Buffy finale or just stake him already. I'll probably have a couple of rants left in me during this summer just to get it out of my system before the new season starts. -- Best regards Linda Mmmmmm. Angel

2003-05-13 02:02:59-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com>)


In article <BTR1702-AD159B.17500512052003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > In article > <maystone1-1205030817320001@dhcp-0-3-93-6a-ee-d8.cpe.townisp.com>, > maystone1@yahoo.com (Lee Kalwat) wrote: > > > Have a little faith, guys. (Mmmmmm, Faith.) Sorry, where was I? Oh, > > yeah. I remember the predictions of doom and gloom when they brought > > Wesley over and look how well that turned out. I was one of the many > > screaming "Kill the baby!" when Connor first appeared, and I grew to love > > the psycho little scamp. > > > > We don't know what Joss & Co. have in store for Spike on AtS. The show is > > heading in a whole new direction with lots of room for character > > development all around. Spike's "new" character (i.e., being soulled) > > hasn't been set in stone yet, because of the Buffy arc. I'm happy to sit > > back and watch what Joss has in mind. > > > > And thank whatever powers may be that Cordelia is no more. Everything > > just moves much more smoothly without that character. > > Gotta disagree on two points: I *never* grew to love Connor. I hated all > the goo-goo nonsense when he was a baby and everyone was constantly > drooling all over him. And I've consistently wanted to just strangle him > since he came back as the sulking teenager from hell. The *only* Connor > scenes I've enjoyed were when Faith was putting the little shit in his > place, either verbally or with her fists. > > Second, Cordelia to me was the heart of the show. Granted, lately her > character has been adrift due to the Angel-world ascension to heaven > stuff and the real-world issues of Cam's pregnancy but when I re-watch > my season 1 DVDs, I'm struck by how much both the character and the > actress brought to the show. I disagree. Cordy was my favorite character on BtVS in the high school years, because she was so shallow and bitchy, but with a dash of real feeling in there. That was such an interesting character, so sharp and witty and scathingly honest. When the AtS writers took the bitch out, all they left was blandness. -- -Michelle Levin (Luna) http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna In the beginning, there was nothing. Then it exploded.

2003-05-13 02:33:13+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Ian Merrithew <optimus2861@my-deja.com>)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in news:20030512184710.15222.00000231@mb-m25.aol.com: > [Spike] was fun in Life Serial, Entropy, and the nerd scenes in > Smashed in S6. He was fun in Get it Done, Storyteller and Empty Places > in S7. <sarcasm> Wow, 6/44. That's not even a good batting average, let alone a good contribution of a character to a TV show. </sarcasm> Actually, maybe I shouldn't be sarcastic. If that's all that *you* of all people can come up with for fun-Spike appearances in two whole seasons of Buffy, then there really is no hope for Angel next year :(. -- Ian Merrithew - ADM Systems Engineering ian.merrithew "at" ieee.org

2003-05-13 03:24:18+02:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


Rose wrote: > > >From: Ben Anspach Anspenremove@hotmail.com > > > >Rose wrote: > >> > >> Ben wrote: > >> > >> > the Buffy writers simply loved Spike/JM too much > >> >to keep him in his designated role. > >> > >> They loved Spike so much they made him a punching bag, whipping boy, > >> Buffy-doormat, and the only character besides Anya who had to pay in a > >> major way for what he did. > > > >From the viewpoint of his character, maybe (though I think ti really > >isn't that bad. So he was insane for a while. It was still a heroically > >insanity). > > I'm not talking about the insanity which, before it was overdone, was an > excellent touch. Then what? > >But from a meta viewpoint his character has been getting all > >the attention. Almost anything that wasn't about Buffy was about Spike > >(especially since Buffy is in such large >ways about Spike these days). > > Of course, nothing about Anya killing people, Willow's romance with Kennedy, > Andrew's redemption story, and the gaggle of SITs. No, Anya had only two > scenes all season, her scenes with Spike. The 'it's only about Spike and Buffy' is obviously meant hyperbole. But only to a point. Other may have independent plot but never too much. Half the time when other characters have any kind of it interaction with Buffy it's All.About.Spike. The Anya scene was one of the *very* few after selfless and it wasn't about Anya it was about how great Spike is (he's unresistible *and* nobel). What exactly was the point of the whole _Empty Spaces_ fight? To actually create two separate schools of thought? To actually confront either Buffy's or the others behaviour this season? No it's so that Buffy can be proven to be Always.Right. and Spike to be her only true defender. After that we can mostly ignore the whole issue. > >Wood? Well of course his whole arc has >to be about Spike. > > For about three or four episodes. No, the whole character. What exactly was the point of even having Wood in the story at all in hindsight? To have him come into conflict with Spike. What makes it even worse is that ME didn't even think about making hi Nikki's son until after introducing him. Which just goes to show that every character must be focused on Spike in order for ME to come up with an interesting storyline. > >Giles? Apart > >from being away without explanations he's all about getting rid of > >Spike. > > For one whole episode. Otherwise, he's about tracking down SITs, being the > voice of doom and being antagonistic to Buffy (and not just re Spike). When exactly? One thing I (finally?) learned this season is that screentime/lines does not equal plot. Yes Giles has been giving some stock doom footage but the only Plot he had, the only interaction which actually mattered in the great scheme of this season, was the Spike thing. > >Anya? Well she gets to come on the >Spike so he can turn her down. > > She also gets to kill 12 frat boys, redeem herself, tell Andrew to masturbate, > diss Buffy to her face twice and have intercourse with Xander. Two incidents > of hitting on Spike don't really tip the scales. No but they add to the total balance. Anya is *another* character which is used to focus on Spike. It's hilarious (in a sad and depressing way) to hear ME say that they kept Andrew around because they wanted to be different and keep the character *after* the big realization that they had done something bad; only to admit two seconds later that they couldn't really find something for Anya because she already had her big revelation early on. > >We have Faith have a soft core talk with >Spike while ignoring most of > >the issues there are between her and >Xander, Willow and Giles. > > Yes, there was that little scene when the spinoff was in the spinoffing. But > she moved on to Wood in the twinkling of an eye. Now she's all about being > worshipped by the SITs and having a fling with Wood. Yes, please don't remind me of that brilliant idea ("Hey we need a third lust couple to illustrated the great transcendent love of that is Spuffy" "What about Faith and Wood? They don't have any connection or history or any reason to even be talking." "Sounds great"). It's not about whether or not every waking minute of every character is focused on Spike. It's that every character at some point *has* to be focused on him. And I do mean focused. Not casually, not as just another character, no as someone to hate, love, feel animalisticly drawn to. > >Buffy can > >only trust him, for some unfathomable reason (it vaguely worked when > >only he could understand her in season six. at least her friends where > >the ones who had resurrected her it makes absolutely no sense now). > > > > Buffy has regressed to her S6 head space with the exception that she is a > megalomaniacal general instead of a suicidal dropout. If I truly believed that this is what ME is trying to convey I might accept it. But it is honestly not. They are saying so, everything so far is pointing the other way and everything we know about the final hour confirms it. I apologize If I'm ranting a bit, but after watching _End of Days_ and listening to the Succubus clubs horrifying interview with JE, DG and RRK, I really wish I'd given up on this series years ago. Ben, who really should get a life instead of getting depressed over a TV show. Anyone know where they're marked down?

2003-05-13 03:37:07+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (johnnydarko1979@aol.com)


considering Buffy is over now.... a lot of us still want our Spike to continue. I like Angel anyways, but you cannot deny that for 1 Spike basher, there aren't 10 people who love Spike and think he's the best thing Buffy has going for it. It's selfish to think because a few of you hate Spike that his story shouldn't continue when he is by far the most popular character on Buffy, even moreso than Buffy herself is. Many of us love Spike and are glad to see him continue. Plus, Spike going over to Angel kinda takes some of the sadness of the show ending away, because the best character will still be on another show.

2003-05-13 03:52:28+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Kamil <kamil@cox.netted>)


"Peyton" <ladypeyton@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:9c27d64c.0305121707.7b8583b5@posting.google.com... > I love AtS and have since S1 Ep1 but none of the characters already on > AtS pulled in the kind of hype that Spike did over on BtVS. Yeah, because Buffy's ratings these past two Spike-centric years have just *soared* through the roof! Never has Buffy had ratings this good! Oh, wait.... The ratings are lower than they've ever been. You're probably right in saying that most of the people who've been able to stick it out with Buffy these days are Spike fans; it's next to impossible to watch the show otherwise. But bear in mind that for all the people who don't watch Angel now that will start watching for Spike, there are just as many, if not more, Angel fans who will flee for the hills rather than see this incredible show and its characters destroyed in the name of the bleached blond wonderboy. Oh yeah, he's gonna help a lot. -- Kamil "I'm tired of hearing about that Spike guy." "Empty Places" BtVS

2003-05-13 04:00:45+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (johnnydarko1979@aol.com)


>Yeah, because Buffy's ratings these past two Spike-centric years have just >*soared* through the roof! Never has Buffy had ratings this good! > >Oh, wait.... The ratings are lower than they've ever been. You're probably >right in saying that most of the people who've been able to stick it out >with Buffy these days are Spike fans; it's next to impossible to watch the >show otherwise. But bear in mind that for all the people who don't watch >Angel now that will start watching for Spike, there are just as many, if not >more, Angel fans who will flee for the hills rather than see this incredible >show and its characters destroyed in the name of the bleached blond >wonderboy. the crapfest known as American Idol is what is drawing a lot of Buffy fans away, notice how much lower the ratings have been since Feb. I have a couple friends who generally like Buffy, but they've been watching AI instead, and I'm sure they are not the only ones. I've been sticking it out till the end tho. Spike saved the show after Riley damn near destroyed it.

2003-05-13 05:13:29+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: johnnydarko1979@aol.com (JohnnyDarko1979) >Date: 5/12/2003 8:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030512233707.11659.00000236@mb-m12.aol.com> > >considering Buffy is over now.... a lot of us still want our Spike to >continue. I like Angel anyways, but you cannot deny that for 1 Spike >basher, there aren't 10 people who love Spike and think he's the best thing >Buffy has going for it. > >It's selfish to think because a few of you hate Spike that his story >shouldn't >continue when he is by far the most popular character on Buffy, even moreso >than Buffy herself is. They have a right to dislike Spike and express it (tho the few who've taken it out on the actor are out of line, imo), but what is puzzling is that there seems to be a lack of acknowledgement that Angel almost didn't get renewed. They were thisclose to never seeing a new ep of Angel again anyway, so simply ceasing to watch because Spike is on shouldn't be that big a deal. Wishing it had been cancelled, and hence taken away from people who still want to see the show, is what is a bit selfish, imo. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-13 05:17:26+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: Ian Merrithew optimus2861@my-deja.com >Date: 5/12/2003 7:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <Xns9379EFA81836Eianmerrithewieeeorg@198.164.200.20> > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in >news:20030512184710.15222.00000231@mb-m25.aol.com: > >> [Spike] was fun in Life Serial, Entropy, and the nerd scenes in >> Smashed in S6. He was fun in Get it Done, Storyteller and Empty Places >> in S7. > ><sarcasm> >Wow, 6/44. That's not even a good batting average, let alone a good >contribution of a character to a TV show. ></sarcasm> > Actually, if you really think that's not a good contribution, you're not being sarcastic. Sarcasm would be "I'm so thrilled and happy to read these stats." But you misunderstand my post. Spike was turned into a serious dramatic character, which is why he wasn't "fun" in a lot of episodes. I think his character was gripping and entertaining in far more episodes than I mentioned. The list above pertains only to eps where he was in comic sort of scenes. Except Gone which I omitted because I disliked the ep. >Actually, maybe I shouldn't be sarcastic. If that's all that *you* of >all people can come up with for fun-Spike appearances in two whole >seasons of Buffy, then there really is no hope for Angel next year :(. > Just because Spike was handled a certain way on BtVS doesn't mean he's destined to be the same way on Angel. Rose I am Neo. You are Mr. Anderson.

2003-05-13 05:39:41+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com> wrote: > > I can see no reason to bring Spike to Angel other than to piss off viewers > like me. It's not just the fact that I hate the Spike character but I see > nothing Spike can bring to Angel other than to eschew more scenery and take > stories away from the other cast members. > > Let Spike die in the Buffy finale or just stake him already. > > I'll probably have a couple of rants left in me during this summer just to > get it out of my system before the new season starts. > > -- > Best regards > > Linda > > Mmmmmm. Angel Linda, I am obviously troubled by Spike being on the show too. However, I am going to attempt to keep the joy and hope I felt after watching "Home", and carry into next season regardless. But you expressed in a couple of posts *exactly* how I feel. You're my new hero. :) -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-13 05:47:49+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Peyton <ladypeyton@yahoo.com> wrote: [snip] > Spike is an artistic, commercial and ratings coupe for AtS. His > appearance on AtS will focus the media's eye on the show and his > appearance, along with Smallville as a lead in will breathe new life > into a once flagging series. [snip] I don't understand why people keep saying that adding Spike is a ratings coup. What have "Buffy"'s ratings been like the past two years? As much as the Spike fan base is vocal and very dedicated, clearly lots of people stopped watching the show during the last two years as well. It's like golf: As many people take up the game, the same number quit each year. Look, maybe all those who are distressed by his presence will end up wrong and "Angel" will blossom like the first tulip in spring. It's possible. Maybe Spike will turn "Angel" into an even better, even more compelling show, and be a driving force behind unforseen quality. I seriously doubt it, but anything is possible. But Spike's ability to get people to watch is dubious at best. And, really, if your argument is that lots of people will watch because they love Spike, then you are just proving right those who don't want him around because they fear he will take over the show and drive every character's development. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-13 05:50:07+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


JohnnyDarko1979 <johnnydarko1979@aol.com> wrote: > considering Buffy is over now.... a lot of us still want our Spike to > continue. I like Angel anyways, but you cannot deny that for 1 Spike > basher, there aren't 10 people who love Spike and think he's the best thing > Buffy has going for it. > > It's selfish to think because a few of you hate Spike that his story shouldn't > continue when he is by far the most popular character on Buffy, even moreso > than Buffy herself is. Many of us love Spike and are glad to see him > continue. Plus, Spike going over to Angel kinda takes some of the sadness of > the show ending away, because the best character will still be on another show. Q.E.D. And you wonder why many fans of "Angel" don't want Spike on the show? -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-13 06:23:34+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: "Linda" lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com >Date: 5/12/2003 6:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <i1Yva.578411$wa2.83333@news.easynews.com> > >I can see no reason to bring Spike to Angel other than to piss off viewers >like me. Yep, it's all about you, Linda. ;) Rose Obsessed with PodGiles

2003-05-13 06:27:42+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Linda wrotE: > >And do you realize that now that Buffy is ending that all those posters on >ATBVS will probably subscribe to ATA and make this NG as noisy and as >impossible to post to as ATBVS is now. Which is the reason I haven't read >that other NG for two years. > You could leave, making yourself and all of those people much happier. You see? The venom can so easily poison both ways. And so far, it's not the Spike-lovers spewing it. Rose Obsessed with PodGiles

2003-05-13 06:42:48-05:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <lunachick-3A3276.02025813052003@news.mindspring.com>, Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote: > In article <BTR1702-AD159B.17500512052003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, > BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > In article > > <maystone1-1205030817320001@dhcp-0-3-93-6a-ee-d8.cpe.townisp.com>, > > maystone1@yahoo.com (Lee Kalwat) wrote: > > > > > Have a little faith, guys. (Mmmmmm, Faith.) Sorry, where was I? > > > Oh, yeah. I remember the predictions of doom and gloom when they brought > > > Wesley over and look how well that turned out. I was one of the many > > > screaming "Kill the baby!" when Connor first appeared, and I grew to > > > love the psycho little scamp. > > > > > > We don't know what Joss & Co. have in store for Spike on AtS. The > > > show is heading in a whole new direction with lots of room for character > > > development all around. Spike's "new" character (i.e., being > > > soulled) hasn't been set in stone yet, because of the Buffy arc. I'm happy to > > > sit back and watch what Joss has in mind. > > > > > > And thank whatever powers may be that Cordelia is no more. > > > Everything just moves much more smoothly without that character. > > > > Gotta disagree on two points: I *never* grew to love Connor. I hated > > all the goo-goo nonsense when he was a baby and everyone was constantly > > drooling all over him. And I've consistently wanted to just strangle > > him since he came back as the sulking teenager from hell. The *only* Connor > > scenes I've enjoyed were when Faith was putting the little shit in his > > place, either verbally or with her fists. > > > > Second, Cordelia to me was the heart of the show. Granted, lately her > > character has been adrift due to the Angel-world ascension to heaven > > stuff and the real-world issues of Cam's pregnancy but when I re-watch > > my season 1 DVDs, I'm struck by how much both the character and the > > actress brought to the show. > > I disagree. Cordy was my favorite character on BtVS in the high school > years, because she was so shallow and bitchy, but with a dash of real > feeling in there. That was such an interesting character, so sharp and > witty and scathingly honest. When the AtS writers took the bitch out, > all they left was blandness. She was plenty bitchy in the first season. Hell, she was sarcastic and difficult all the way up through Pylea at least.

2003-05-13 06:44:30-05:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <20030512233707.11659.00000236@mb-m12.aol.com>, johnnydarko1979@aol.com (JohnnyDarko1979) writes: > > Plus, Spike going over to Angel kinda takes some of the sadness of > >the show ending away, because the best character will still be on > >another show. Wait... you mean they're bringing Faith back to Angel? I had no idea!

2003-05-13 06:46:23-05:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <20030513053447.11698.00000319@mb-m12.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > But just wait. I will have my moment too -- if and when it's announced > that PodGiles will be added to AtS as a recurring character. I will tear my > proverbial hair and post 16 times that it would be better for all the AtS > actors to commit suicide at the same time than for PodGiles to skank up > the sacred sets of AtS for even a millisecond. ;p Post what you like but I would rather any version of Giles to become a regular on ANGEL than even one episode of Spike.

2003-05-13 06:58:54+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > >Linda wrotE: > >> >>And do you realize that now that Buffy is ending that all those posters on >>ATBVS will probably subscribe to ATA and make this NG as noisy and as >>impossible to post to as ATBVS is now. Which is the reason I haven't read >>that other NG for two years. >> > >You could leave, making yourself and all of those people much happier. Not that anyone ever said that to you, right? >You see? The venom can so easily poison both ways. And so far, it's not the >Spike-lovers spewing it. We had a Spike-lover insist that Spike will "save" AtS just as he "saved" BtVS after Riley destroyed it. Sorry, there's plenty of poison air going on with both sides of the issue. Feel like I'm in the trenches in WWI. Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-13 07:26:48+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, fylmfan@aol.comspam wrote in article <20030513011726.24776.00000251@mb-m06.aol.com>... [elided] > > Just because Spike was handled a certain way on BtVS doesn't mean he's destined > to be the same way on Angel. > [elided] First of all, the show is called Angel, so even though Spike will have his stories the narrative will remain focused on Angel. Second, all the characters that came over from Buffy the Vampire Slayer underwent substantial transformation as the series evolved. Third, there is a paucity of female leads on Angel. If Cordelia becomes a part-time character, then Fred is it so far as regular romance is concerned. Perhaps Lilah will lose her head for Spike. Wait, she already did lose her head. Oh, well. And finally, I predict that Spike's new role will be as Angel's kickboxing limousine (christened the Black Beauty) chauffeur. They will wear masks as they drive around Los Angeles having cool adventures and stuff whilst fighting crime. Has that been done already? -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-13 07:52:15+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <20030512233707.11659.00000236@mb-m12.aol.com>, johnnydarko1979@aol.com (JohnnyDarko1979) writes: >considering Buffy is over now.... a lot of us still want our Spike to >continue. And a large number of us feel that "our Spike" that you want to continue has no business being on Angel. OTOH, if they destroy that "our Spike" and rebuild the character, then it could work. If the writing is done well. Which it hasn't been as good the past season and a half on Angel. Longer on BtVS. I like Angel anyways, but you cannot deny that for 1 Spike >basher, there aren't 10 people who love Spike and think he's the best thing >Buffy has going for it. BtVS best thing it had going for it was the outstanding writing of the first three seasons, most of which was Spikeless. The worst thing was when the writers relied on a character's popularity over good writing. The best thing BtVS has going for it now is that it is ending. Probably about four seasons too late (though it could be argued only two). >It's selfish to think because a few of you hate Spike that his story >shouldn't >continue when he is by far the most popular character on Buffy, even moreso >than Buffy herself is. Many of us love Spike and are glad to see him >continue. So not fitting into the storyline isn't a big with you, I take it. Nor character orchestration, which doesn't seem to be with ME anymore either. If you'll check, we also hated Buffy being on Angel. She didn't fit in here either. > Plus, Spike going over to Angel kinda takes some of the sadness of >the show ending away, because the best character will still be on another >show. Giles is going to be on Angel? Cool! Or did ME finally get Ripper off the ground? Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-13 07:52:16+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <20030512191146.15222.00000237@mb-m25.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: >>From: BTR1701 BTR1702@ix.netcom.com >>Second, Cordelia to me was the heart of >the show. > >Is the heart. Is. There is nothing to indicate she has left the show. Cordelia wasn't on the show last year, and the actress isn't going to be on all that much this next season. Which might explain why the show is going wrong. It's lost its heart. Of course, it doesn't help that the past two season finales were written by people getting the hell out of Dodge, as the setup for the next season they weren't going to be around to produce. Damn, I'm getting more depressed than Terry about next season. And I haven't even begun by arc reviews for the past two. Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-13 07:52:16+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <9c27d64c.0305121707.7b8583b5@posting.google.com>, ladypeyton@yahoo.com (Peyton) writes: >Spike is an artistic, commercial and ratings coupe for AtS. His >appearance on AtS will focus the media's eye on the show and his >appearance, along with Smallville as a lead in will breathe new life >into a once flagging series. Gee, and we get to read all these neat little hyperbolic dribble from the Spikophants! Ain't life wonderful! And you wonder why the poison is boiling out, Roaz? Eeesh. Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-13 09:34:05-07:00 - (spoiler for tonight's ep added) Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (spoiler for tonight's ep added) - (ladypeyton@yahoo.com)


"Kamil" <kamil@cox.netted> wrote in message news:<0_Zva.64481$3n5.60373@news2.central.cox.net>... > "Peyton" <ladypeyton@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:9c27d64c.0305121707.7b8583b5@posting.google.com... > > > I love AtS and have since S1 Ep1 but none of the characters already on > > AtS pulled in the kind of hype that Spike did over on BtVS. > > Yeah, because Buffy's ratings these past two Spike-centric years have just > *soared* through the roof! Never has Buffy had ratings this good! And the fact that UPN doesn't have the same market share that the WB had (less TV's per capita that have access to the channel), the fact that UPN paid so much for the show they couldn't afford to market it, the continual and nonsensical schedule which would regularly put a new episode in a sea of repeats unannounced, the fact that several major markets repeatedly preempted the show for sports had *nothing* to do with the ratings. It was all Spike's fault even though a significant amount of press the show *did* get last year was because of him. ;^> > Oh, wait.... The ratings are lower than they've ever been. You're probably > right in saying that most of the people who've been able to stick it out > with Buffy these days are Spike fans; it's next to impossible to watch the > show otherwise. But bear in mind that for all the people who don't watch > Angel now that will start watching for Spike, there are just as many, if not > more, Angel fans who will flee for the hills rather than see this incredible > show and its characters destroyed in the name of the bleached blond > wonderboy. I think it's a complete shame that you think DB and the character Angel can't hold their own when sharing screentime with JM. I certainly don't feel that way. Remember - the true star of BtVS AND AtS is not SMG, DB OR JM. It's Joss Whedon. Joss only has one show left on TV and he's gonna tell the story he's gonna tell no matter what. Spuffies and Ducks alike are just learning that. Also, JM won't be the male lead on AtS as he was on BtVS (filling Angel's shoes for the past few seasons) so of *course* we won't see him getting the types of stories he was getting on BtVS. My motto is "Trust in Joss" and I've never seen anything to make that motto untrue. > Oh yeah, he's gonna help a lot. Of course he is. The only time this year DB was able to get hype for AtS was due to the fact that BtVS is ending and there was an onscreen kiss (or will be in tonight's ep). Once BtVS is over AtS will have to struggle to get free press and a rivalry (even a small humorous one) between Spike and Angel will *get* them that free press. JM & DB SPARKLE onscreen together and I can't wait to see more of the magic we got in In The Dark. I'm holding my breath in anticipation of a possible reappearance of Drusilla and even possibly Darla - since WR&H have no problem getting dead people to work for them - and would *LOVE* to see a new storyline involving the *original* fang gang. AtS is made in the shade next year and I see at least 2 more seasons of good ME storytelling before me. There's nothing like it (even at it's worst) anywhere else on television and I rejoice that I don't have to go cold turkey from it as should every fan of a ME show. Peyton

2003-05-13 09:34:47+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: sweick@aol.com (SWeick) >Date: 5/13/2003 12:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030513035216.16173.00000452@mb-m28.aol.com> > >In article <9c27d64c.0305121707.7b8583b5@posting.google.com>, >ladypeyton@yahoo.com (Peyton) writes: > >>Spike is an artistic, commercial and ratings coupe for AtS. His >>appearance on AtS will focus the media's eye on the show and his >>appearance, along with Smallville as a lead in will breathe new life >>into a once flagging series. > > >Gee, and we get to read all these neat little hyperbolic dribble from >the Spikophants! Ain't life wonderful! > >And you wonder why the poison is boiling out, Roaz? Eeesh. > Hyperbole begets hyperbole. It's not Spike fans who read "not coming back as a regular" as "never ever coming back because she was fired to make room for James Marsters." It's not Spike fans who say it would be better to cancel the series than to have Spike on the show, because he will single handedly destroy it, as he single-handedly destroyed BtVS. If the objections all were merely "Dang. I don't much like Spike. I wish he weren't going to be on the show. Oh well, life goes on," your complaint about Spikeophiliac hyperbole would have a bit more merit. But just wait. I will have my moment too -- if and when it's announced that PodGiles will be added to AtS as a recurring character. I will tear my proverbial hair and post 16 times that it would be better for all the AtS actors to commit suicide at the same time than for PodGiles to skank up the sacred sets of AtS for even a millisecond. ;p > > >Stephen Weick > ><Fill In The Blank> > > > > > > Rose Obsessed with PodGiles

2003-05-13 09:35:56+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: sweick@aol.com (SWeick) >Date: 5/12/2003 11:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030513025854.26892.00000340@mb-m04.aol.com> > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > > >> >>Linda wrotE: >> >>> >>>And do you realize that now that Buffy is ending that all those posters on >>>ATBVS will probably subscribe to ATA and make this NG as noisy and as >>>impossible to post to as ATBVS is now. Which is the reason I haven't read >>>that other NG for two years. >>> >> >>You could leave, making yourself and all of those people much happier. > > >Not that anyone ever said that to you, right? > > >>You see? The venom can so easily poison both ways. And so far, it's not >the >>Spike-lovers spewing it. > > >We had a Spike-lover insist that Spike will "save" AtS just as he >"saved" BtVS after Riley destroyed it. > That's not venom directed at people who are or will be posting here, it's an opinion about a character. Rose Obsessed with PodGiles

2003-05-13 09:38:02+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>> Plus, Spike going over to Angel kinda takes some of the sadness of >>the show ending away, because the best character will still be on another >>show. > > >Giles is going to be on Angel? > >Cool! > >Or did ME finally get Ripper off the ground? > More to the point, did someone find Giles bound and gagged in a closet in a country house in England and set him free? Rose Obsessed with PodGiles

2003-05-13 09:52:18-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


C.L. Lassiter wrote: > I still say that the whole "vamp with a soul" shtick is going to > be interesting now that there will be 2 on the show. "I'm Agent Smith. This is Special Agent Smith. No relation...."

2003-05-13 10:00:17-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (ladypeyton@yahoo.com)


sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote in message news:<20030513035216.16173.00000452@mb-m28.aol.com>... > In article <9c27d64c.0305121707.7b8583b5@posting.google.com>, > ladypeyton@yahoo.com (Peyton) writes: > > >Spike is an artistic, commercial and ratings coupe for AtS. His > >appearance on AtS will focus the media's eye on the show and his > >appearance, along with Smallville as a lead in will breathe new life > >into a once flagging series. > > > Gee, and we get to read all these neat little hyperbolic dribble from > the Spikophants! Ain't life wonderful! Are you in denial that AtS was almost not renewed due to flagging ratings until word got out that the series finale's of BtVS & AtS were linked and then the rumor got out that JM would be jumping series both of which succeeded in boosting ATS's ratings to a point where the WB could consider renewal? It helped that AtS was in the middle of a stupendous storyline but since there was no hype about the great storyline that's not what got nonviewers to initially turn the dial. It's what got people to keep watching after they tuned in because of the hype. > And you wonder why the poison is boiling out, Roaz? Eeesh. Pardon? I happen to think that Spike is an interesting well developed character in the Whedonverse played by a truly gifted actor. I'm also a realist and I call the characters' popularity as I see it. I happen to really enjoy JM's acting - but I am *NOT* a Spikophant. I've been watching both shows since Becomming 1 first aired and I love each and every character in the Jossverse. (some more than others since I could do without Wood, Kennedy, S3&4 Cordelia and for the most part Connor). If I was simply a Spikophant I would have had *no* reason to watch AtS yet I've seen (and taped so I could watch repeatedly until the DVD is released) every episode save Waiting in the Wings which I missed and it's never been repeated. I would hate to watch an AtS that became the Spike show but I don't see that happening next year. It's entirely possible that the reason Spike's moved to AtS is to keep the character fresh in order to have him around for a potential spinoff. I for one don't give a lot of hope to Eliza's Fox show and it's also entirely possible that the year after next we'll actually *get* FtVS with Spike moving from AtS to FtVS as was originally intended. I don't know because I'm just a ME fan. Much more a ME fan than you are it seems. If anything I am a Whedonphant. Joss is Ghod. Peyton

2003-05-13 10:01:47-07:00 - Re: (spoiler for tonight's ep added) Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (spoiler for tonight's ep added) - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


Peyton wrote: > "Kamil" <kamil@cox.netted> wrote in message news:<0_Zva.64481$3n5.60373@news2.central.cox.net>... > >>"Peyton" <ladypeyton@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>news:9c27d64c.0305121707.7b8583b5@posting.google.com... >> >> >>>I love AtS and have since S1 Ep1 but none of the characters already on >>>AtS pulled in the kind of hype that Spike did over on BtVS. >> >>Yeah, because Buffy's ratings these past two Spike-centric years have just >>*soared* through the roof! Never has Buffy had ratings this good! > > > And the fact that UPN doesn't have the same market share that the WB > had (less TV's per capita that have access to the channel), the fact > that UPN paid so much for the show they couldn't afford to market it, > the continual and nonsensical schedule which would regularly put a new > episode in a sea of repeats unannounced, the fact that several major > markets repeatedly preempted the show for sports had *nothing* to do > with the ratings. It was all Spike's fault even though a significant > amount of press the show *did* get last year was because of him. ;^> > >>Oh, wait.... The ratings are lower than they've ever been. You're probably >>right in saying that most of the people who've been able to stick it out >>with Buffy these days are Spike fans; it's next to impossible to watch the >>show otherwise. But bear in mind that for all the people who don't watch >>Angel now that will start watching for Spike, there are just as many, if not >>more, Angel fans who will flee for the hills rather than see this incredible >>show and its characters destroyed in the name of the bleached blond >>wonderboy. > > > I think it's a complete shame that you think DB and the character > Angel can't hold their own when sharing screentime with JM. I > certainly don't feel that way. Remember - the true star of BtVS AND > AtS is not SMG, DB OR JM. It's Joss Whedon. Joss only has one show > left on TV and he's gonna tell the story he's gonna tell no matter > what. Spuffies and Ducks alike are just learning that. Also, JM > won't be the male lead on AtS as he was on BtVS (filling Angel's shoes > for the past few seasons) so of *course* we won't see him getting the > types of stories he was getting on BtVS. > > My motto is "Trust in Joss" and I've never seen anything to make that > motto untrue. The introduction of Dawn. The continuing existence of Dawn. Buffy's unbelievable ( and suicidal) deus ex machina leap in "The Gift". Chipped Spike Who Will Not Go Away. Crack Magic Willow. PodGiles. The list could go on. (And Joss is ultimately responsible, no matter who else was involved. "The buck stops here" doesn't only apply to Presidents.) I've seen _plenty_ to destroy my faith in Joss.

2003-05-13 10:03:50-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - ("C.L. Lassiter" <seaelle@unc.edu>)


EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote: > On 12 May 2003 21:31:07 GMT, sfryar@aol.comSPAMIN8R (Stephie) wrote: >>It'll be interesting to see Spike and Angel together, especially after the >>events in the "Angel" season finale. >> >>Also, Spike is a trip-and-a-half to watch (imo), so this could put a little bit >>of fun back into the show as well. > Just curiuos what what incarnation of Spike are you talking about? Pre > chip Spike certainly added a lot to Angel when he appeared. > On the other hand, have you been watching Buffy for the past few seasons? > How much "fun" did you think Spike added to that? I still say that the whole "vamp with a soul" shtick is going to be interesting now that there will be 2 on the show. cl

2003-05-13 11:54:56+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > In article <lunachick-3A3276.02025813052003@news.mindspring.com>, Luna > <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote: >> I disagree. Cordy was my favorite character on BtVS in the high school >> years, because she was so shallow and bitchy, but with a dash of real >> feeling in there. That was such an interesting character, so sharp and >> witty and scathingly honest. When the AtS writers took the bitch out, >> all they left was blandness. > > She was plenty bitchy in the first season. Hell, she was sarcastic and > difficult all the way up through Pylea at least. Oh, absolutely. That bee still had her sting for a long while. It was really with S3, when the whole show began to change tone, that Cordy changed with it. But just watching old "Angel" episodes (at least S1, since that's all I have on DVD) has renewed my appreciation of Cordelia, and the writing for her. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-13 12:30:50-05:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Sean <Stalky15-1@excite.com>)


In article <FtNva.66999$ey1.6050375@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, Chris Zabel wrote: > Spike was added to Angel for one reason: ratings and the fanbase he brings > along with him. As for the Spike haters out there, I suspect you'll like > the Spike seen on AtS, as without Buffy any romance will be probably > downplayed in his character. I'm looking forward to him taking over yet > another show. How long will it be before AtS is renamed? :) When was it named "AtS" in the first place? Anyway, I think that with only 1 show to focus its energy and talent on, ME can do some excellent work. I'm enthusiastic about next season. I never had strong feelings about the Spike character one way or another, but I think that Angel is a more appropriate place for him to be, and that during the last couple years on Buffy, he's pretty much just been filling Angel's shoes. Now if they bring on Gwen as a regular, then next season could very well end up being my favorite. ...Sean.

2003-05-13 13:18:51-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 13 May 2003 10:00:17 -0700, ladypeyton@yahoo.com (Peyton) wrote: >sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote in message news:<20030513035216.16173.00000452@mb-m28.aol.com>... >> In article <9c27d64c.0305121707.7b8583b5@posting.google.com>, >> ladypeyton@yahoo.com (Peyton) writes: >> >> >Spike is an artistic, commercial and ratings coupe for AtS. His >> >appearance on AtS will focus the media's eye on the show and his >> >appearance, along with Smallville as a lead in will breathe new life >> >into a once flagging series. >> >> >> Gee, and we get to read all these neat little hyperbolic dribble from >> the Spikophants! Ain't life wonderful! > >Are you in denial that AtS was almost not renewed due to flagging >ratings until word got out that the series finale's of BtVS & AtS were >linked and then the rumor got out that JM would be jumping series both >of which succeeded in boosting ATS's ratings to a point where the WB >could consider renewal? Oh, geeze. You're not actually going to try and argue that rumors of JM going to Angel saved the series from cancellation? BTVS has seen a ratings decline over the past three years. Internet fans who hear rumors aren't going to make a difference. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-05-13 14:27:10+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <MPG.192a3e122b5542e898a1ec@netnews.attbi.com>, Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> writes: > >And finally, I predict that Spike's new role will be as Angel's >kickboxing limousine (christened the Black Beauty) chauffeur. They will >wear masks as they drive around Los Angeles having cool adventures and >stuff whilst fighting crime. See Roaz. On the positive side, some of the posters have come up with some brilliant ideas on to how Spike could fit in. Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-13 14:27:11+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <20030513053447.11698.00000319@mb-m12.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: >sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: >> >>In article <9c27d64c.0305121707.7b8583b5@posting.google.com>, >>ladypeyton@yahoo.com (Peyton) writes: >> >>>Spike is an artistic, commercial and ratings coupe for AtS. His >>>appearance on AtS will focus the media's eye on the show and his >>>appearance, along with Smallville as a lead in will breathe new life >>>into a once flagging series. >> >> >>Gee, and we get to read all these neat little hyperbolic dribble from >>the Spikophants! Ain't life wonderful! >> >>And you wonder why the poison is boiling out, Roaz? Eeesh. >> > >Hyperbole begets hyperbole. And flamebaiting begets flames. "Damn, they're putting in IBMs in the lab." "IBMs RULZ!! Macs Droowl!!" <Insert flames as needed> > It's not Spike fans who read "not coming back as >a >regular" as "never ever coming back because she was fired to make room for >James Marsters." It's not Spike fans who say it would be better to cancel >the >series than to have Spike on the show, because he will single handedly >destroy >it, as he single-handedly destroyed BtVS. If the objections all were merely >"Dang. I don't much like Spike. I wish he weren't going to be on the show. >Oh >well, life goes on," your complaint about Spikeophiliac hyperbole would have >a >bit more merit. So Roaz, you wrote Buffy as a character these past few seasons? :-O >But just wait. I will have my moment too -- if and when it's announced that >PodGiles will be added to AtS as a recurring character. I will tear my >proverbial hair and post 16 times that it would be better for all the AtS >actors to commit suicide at the same time than for PodGiles to skank up the >sacred sets of AtS for even a millisecond. ;p Yeah, but with PodGiles, I can see them stumbling the old Giles, and having a great storyline. They have to prove it to me that they can bring back some version of Spike that's worthwhile. (BTW, good job of flamebaiting. You keep this up and many a killfile will be clicking. ;-) Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-13 14:27:12+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <20030513053802.11698.00000321@mb-m12.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: >>> Plus, Spike going over to Angel kinda takes some of the sadness of >>>the show ending away, because the best character will still be on another >>>show. >> >> >>Giles is going to be on Angel? >> >>Cool! >> >>Or did ME finally get Ripper off the ground? >> > >More to the point, did someone find Giles bound and gagged in a closet in a >country house in England and set him free? Nope, only hope this Giles knows better than to let some Nancyboy Principal try to do a man's job. "If you're gonna stake, stake. Don't talk." - _The Good, the Bad, and the Shirtless_ Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-13 14:27:12+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <20030513053556.11698.00000320@mb-m12.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote >> >>fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >> >> >>> >>>Linda wrotE: >>> >>>> >>>>And do you realize that now that Buffy is ending that all those posters on >>>>ATBVS will probably subscribe to ATA and make this NG as noisy and as >>>>impossible to post to as ATBVS is now. Which is the reason I haven't read >>>>that other NG for two years. >>>> >>> >>>You could leave, making yourself and all of those people much happier. >> >> >>Not that anyone ever said that to you, right? >> >> >>>You see? The venom can so easily poison both ways. And so far, it's not >>the >>>Spike-lovers spewing it. >> >> >>We had a Spike-lover insist that Spike will "save" AtS just as he >>"saved" BtVS after Riley destroyed it. >> > >That's not venom directed at people who are or will be posting here, it's an >opinion about a character. It's cause and effect, as in making ata "noisy and impossible to post to" with flamebaiting. :-P And it's usually polite not to bring up subject matters where you are new that you know will cause such conflict. Unless, of course, that's the purpose of being here. Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-13 14:43:56+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


> >Nope, only hope this Giles knows better than to let some Nancyboy >Principal try to do a man's job. > I had to contemplate this for 30 seconds before I got what you meant. Because... Wood -- a nancyboy? Wow, that's a first. Rose Obsessed with PodGiles

2003-05-13 14:45:00+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: sweick@aol.com (SWeick) >Date: 5/13/2003 7:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030513102710.18821.00000619@mb-m10.aol.com> > >In article <MPG.192a3e122b5542e898a1ec@netnews.attbi.com>, Growltiger ><tyger@never.invalid> writes: > >> >>And finally, I predict that Spike's new role will be as Angel's >>kickboxing limousine (christened the Black Beauty) chauffeur. They will >>wear masks as they drive around Los Angeles having cool adventures and >>stuff whilst fighting crime. > > >See Roaz. OK, I'm trying to get the funny, and I don't....

2003-05-13 14:56:24+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030512190333.15222.00000233@mb-m25.aol.com... > thought that would happen. It's a miracle. Before you know it I'll be a > Kennedy fan. Let's not get crazy here.

2003-05-13 15:33:40+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: > > They have a right to dislike Spike and express it (tho the few who've taken it > out on the actor are out of line, imo), but what is puzzling is that there > seems to be a lack of acknowledgement that Angel almost didn't get renewed. > They were thisclose to never seeing a new ep of Angel again anyway, so simply > ceasing to watch because Spike is on shouldn't be that big a deal. Wishing it > had been cancelled, and hence taken away from people who still want to see the > show, is what is a bit selfish, imo. Ok, firstly, I have no idea how close "Angel" was to being cancelled. Maybe I missed things, but I don't usually follow this kind of thing too closely. And, secondly, a person "wishing" that it would be cancelled rather than have Spike added to the cast is not taking anything away from anyone, thus the word "wishing." I "wish" that they would get back to telling stories about helping people, one person at a time. Hmm, do you think that my wishing it will make it be? If only. (Heck, if I could wish things into being, then that "Very Special Episode" where I get to guest star, and spend 22 minutes smooching Fred would occur). I think that any feelings someone has toward a show are based on selfishness, to a degree. Some are selfish in that they want Spike on "Angel". Others are selfish in that they want "Angel" to continue as a show they can enjoy, and part of that entails Spike not being a cast member. People would like something from the show, and people want that something for themselves. -- A.E. Jabbour You don't learn that kind of darkness - it's inate. It was in you before we ever met. You said you can smell me? Well I can smell you too. My boy's in there, and he wants out. Darla, "Dear Boy"

2003-05-13 15:38:45-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (tymcneal@hotmail.com)


sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote in message news:<20030513035216.16173.00000453@mb-m28.aol.com>... > Cordelia wasn't on the show last year, and the actress isn't > going to be on all that much this next season. "Charisma Carpenter is looking for other work and has no plans to appear on _Angel_ in any capacity" is how I'm hearing it from 'sources.' > Damn, I'm getting more depressed than Terry about next season. I read this <http://tv.zap2it.com/news/tvnewsdaily.html?31560> and then deleted my season pass for _Angel_ from TiVo. Amazingly, ME overcame my anal retentive need to complete what I started, 'cause if this season was one long "The Wish," next season sounds like one long "Provider." And while I liked "The Wish" as a one-off 'what if...' episode, "Provider" just sucked. OTOH, I'm not depressed about next season. Terry

2003-05-13 16:31:58+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (benvarkent@aol.com)


>But adding his character doesn't mean it won't improve or the ratings >won't go up. If you don't like him being there than by all means don't >watch. I have always liked Spike and I am glad he will still be >around. It would seem to me that the only argument you could make that adding his character would make ratings go up, is that there are millions of Spike fans. And only Spike fans. Who haven't watched ANGEL since Spike's last appearance and who will follow, doglike in their devotion, wherever he doth go. Which may well be true. I just don't think so. I think essentially the same people watch both shows, and ANGEL is not suddenly going to pick up a noticable jump in former BUFFY viewers. In fact, adding Spike, for many people representative of everything that went wrong with the mother show over the past two years, may turn off almost as many people as it turns on. Dunno, though. Ben Varkentine "Don't steal from anyone. Especially the best. Your own stuff will pale immeasurably."--Larry Gelbart Read my film, music and book reviews at http://ink19.com/ (new) & http://popmatters.com/ (archival)

2003-05-13 16:41:38-05:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <b9qmeg$lle3c$2@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>, AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote: > BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > In article <lunachick-3A3276.02025813052003@news.mindspring.com>, Luna > > <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote: > > >> I disagree. Cordy was my favorite character on BtVS in the high > >> school years, because she was so shallow and bitchy, but with a dash of real > >> feeling in there. That was such an interesting character, so sharp > >> and witty and scathingly honest. When the AtS writers took the bitch out, > >> all they left was blandness. > > > > She was plenty bitchy in the first season. Hell, she was sarcastic and > > difficult all the way up through Pylea at least. > > Oh, absolutely. That bee still had her sting for a long while. > It was really with S3, when the whole show began to change tone, > that Cordy changed with it. > > But just watching old "Angel" episodes (at least S1, since that's > all I have on DVD) has renewed my appreciation of Cordelia, and > the writing for her. It wasn't even so much the writing as Cam Carpenter's delivery. You could have another actress perform the same script and not have nearly the same effect.

2003-05-13 16:49:24+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net >Date: 5/13/2003 8:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <b9r38k$m0q06$1@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> > >Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: >> >> They have a right to dislike Spike and express it (tho the few who've taken >it >> out on the actor are out of line, imo), but what is puzzling is that there >> seems to be a lack of acknowledgement that Angel almost didn't get renewed. > >> They were thisclose to never seeing a new ep of Angel again anyway, so >simply >> ceasing to watch because Spike is on shouldn't be that big a deal. Wishing >it >> had been cancelled, and hence taken away from people who still want to see >the >> show, is what is a bit selfish, imo. > >Ok, firstly, I have no idea how close >"Angel" was to being cancelled. In a recent interview, David Boreanaz himself, until then always optimistic, expressed doubts whether Angel would be renewed. Rose Obsessed with PodGiles

2003-05-13 21:10:07+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Ian Merrithew <optimus2861@my-deja.com>)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in news:20030513011726.24776.00000251@mb-m06.aol.com: > But you misunderstand my post. Spike was turned into a serious > dramatic character, which is why he wasn't "fun" in a lot of episodes. > I think his character was gripping and entertaining in far more > episodes than I mentioned. Man, not me. I couldn't *stand* the Spike-centric BtVS, though it was "Wrecked" that ultimately drove me from it. Insert your typical "Spike- took-screentime-and-plot-away-from-other-characters" rant here (much like that Salon article, for instance), and that's how I feel about Spike, the BS relationship, and Spike coming over to AtS. > Just because Spike was handled a certain way on BtVS doesn't mean he's > destined to be the same way on Angel. Same executive producer, some of the same writers, same actor, same Joss in overall charge. Maybe, *maybe*, getting Spike away from Buffy will prove to be a bigger factor than I think in getting his character back to something interesting, but frankly I've become a pretty deep skeptic of M.E.'s abilities over the past two seasons of mediocre AtS and just plain bad BtVS. "Home" was real encouraging, but what a way to take the shine off... -- Ian Merrithew - ADM Systems Engineering ian.merrithew "at" ieee.org

2003-05-13 21:24:36+00:00 - Re: (spoiler for tonight's ep added) Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (spoiler for tonight's ep added) - (Kamil <kamil@cox.netted>)


"Mark Jones" <sinanju@pacifier.com> wrote in message news:3EC124FB.7000504@pacifier.com... > Peyton wrote: > > My motto is "Trust in Joss" and I've never seen anything to make that > > motto untrue. > > The introduction of Dawn. > The continuing existence of Dawn. > Buffy's unbelievable ( and suicidal) deus ex machina leap in "The Gift". > Chipped Spike Who Will Not Go Away. > Crack Magic Willow. > PodGiles. > The list could go on. (And Joss is ultimately responsible, no matter who > else was involved. "The buck stops here" doesn't only apply to Presidents.) > > I've seen _plenty_ to destroy my faith in Joss. Stand By Your Rapist did it for me. On a show about female empowerment. Or supposedly about female empowerment. Hasn't been for a really long time now. That's the reason I won't stick around to watch Angel after Spike transfers over; it has nothing to do with believing that DB and the others can't hold their own (please, the Angel regulars can actually *act*, as opposed to chewing the scenery every time the camera turns their direction). It's because I don't want to see Angel's theme of personal redemption destroyed and turned into the Spike School of Redemption Through Cheekbones. -- Kamil "I'm tired of hearing about that Spike guy." "Empty Places" BtVS

2003-05-13 22:58:20+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Jerelyn <jnparker@mtholyoke.edu>)


On Tue, 13 May 2003, Mark Jones wrote: > C.L. Lassiter wrote: > > > I still say that the whole "vamp with a soul" shtick is going to > > be interesting now that there will be 2 on the show. > > "I'm Agent Smith. This is Special Agent Smith. No relation...." If anything, hopefully the combination of Angel and Spike would force better characterization of Angel as Someone rather than Something. To some degree when I watched the recent Angel episodes, I asked myself what the Big Deal about Angel was. Several of the characters made me stand up and take notice because of their personalities (Wesley and Lorne are my two favorites), whereas if someone asked me to describe Angel I'd, sadly, probably just say "Um, he's a vampire...with a soul. And he tries to help people." Which partly just proves that I'm a dweeb who isn't picking up nuances :D, but truly, I know I'm supposed to feel that "ohhh, Angel is going to save the day!" emotion when the hero enters the scene, but I don't so much. Not like when Willow showed up to help on AtS and I jumped out of my chair with a WOOHOO! because I truly felt some competent ass-kicking had arrived. If Angel is now just A vampire with a soul, not The vampire with a soul, I can hopefully start to see what makes him so special he gets a TV show named after him. Maybe they'll start a branch W&H run by Spike where they kidnap vampires and shove souls into them...a sort of force rehabilitation clinic. Then we can have entire droves of mopey, misunderstood people wearing all black and full of angst about their demon natures. *shudder* On second thought, I don't need to reminded of the clumps of teenagers I walk by on my way to work every morning. Jerelyn

2003-05-13 23:15:17+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Terry wrote: > >"Charisma Carpenter is looking for other work and has no plans to >appear on _Angel_ in any capacity" is how I'm hearing it from >'sources.' Do your 'sources' give a reason? Thanks. Rose Obsessed with PodGiles

2003-05-13 23:21:01+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 13 May 2003 23:15:17 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: :Terry wrote: : :> :>"Charisma Carpenter is looking for other work and has no plans to :>appear on _Angel_ in any capacity" is how I'm hearing it from :>'sources.' : :Do your 'sources' give a reason? Thanks. She wants to spend time with the family, as said here: <http://www.troyrecord.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=7995447&BRD=1170&PAG=740&dept_id=226966&rfi=6> Terry

2003-05-14 01:25:37+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (twc6@aol.com.org)


<<:>"Charisma Carpenter is looking for other work and has no plans to :>appear on _Angel_ in any capacity" is how I'm hearing it from :>'sources.' : :Do your 'sources' give a reason? Thanks. She wants to spend time with the family, as said here:>> Then why is she "looking for other work"? Something isn't making sense.

2003-05-14 01:37:32+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 14 May 2003 01:25:37 GMT, twc6@aol.com.org (Twc6) wrote: :Then why is she "looking for other work"? Something isn't making sense. Something that takes less time each day than filming _Angel_ did is my guess. Like a sitcom, for instance. But unless she's become independently wealthy or unless her husband is, she's going to need to work, right? Terry

2003-05-14 01:43:51+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, fylmfan@aol.comspam wrote in article <20030513104500.13188.00000271@mb-m14.aol.com>... > >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >From: sweick@aol.com (SWeick) > >Date: 5/13/2003 7:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <20030513102710.18821.00000619@mb-m10.aol.com> > > > >In article <MPG.192a3e122b5542e898a1ec@netnews.attbi.com>, Growltiger > ><tyger@never.invalid> writes: > > > >> > >>And finally, I predict that Spike's new role will be as Angel's > >>kickboxing limousine (christened the Black Beauty) chauffeur. They will > >>wear masks as they drive around Los Angeles having cool adventures and > >>stuff whilst fighting crime. > > > > > >See Roaz. > > OK, I'm trying to get the funny, and I don't.... > > > Well, my first thought was Angel, replete with cape and cowl, and Spike as his ward and apprentice. They fight crime by night and run a multimillion dollar law firm by day. But I am pretty sure that this concept has been done. Besides, Wes may look great in a tux, but as the faithful manservant, well, not so much. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-14 01:46:01+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, fylmfan@aol.comspam wrote in article <20030513104356.13188.00000270@mb-m14.aol.com>... > > > >Nope, only hope this Giles knows better than to let some Nancyboy > >Principal try to do a man's job. > > > > I had to contemplate this for 30 seconds before I got what you meant. > Because... Wood -- a nancyboy? Wow, that's a first. > > I think it is his hair. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-14 01:51:28+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"JohnnyDarko1979" <johnnydarko1979@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030512143243.26854.00000280@mb-m03.aol.com... > > Spike and Angel on the same show will really blow the ratings through the roof. > Come on, you guys probably thought Wesley would be a bad addition after > Doyle too, didn't you? Yeah, cause Buffy's ratings really improved the last two years - not. And I couldn't stand Doyle. I didn't actually hate him but I didn't feel he added anything to the show. Adding Wesley to the show was an outstanding move in my honest opinion. -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-14 01:51:36+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"AE Jabbour" <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in message news:b9p17c$lssqs$3@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de... > Lord Usher <lord_usher@hotmail.com> wrote: > > AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in > > news:b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de: > > > >> Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >> turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >> piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of > >> "Buffy"? > > > > I'm no great fan of Spike right now, but I think there's at least a > > chance he can become an interesting character again once ME pries him > > away from his chastely beloved (*gag*) Buffy. Hell, it did wonders for > > Angel. > > Getting away from the writers of "Buffy" is the most important thing. > But I still don't think that it will matter, since I believe that > the 'Spike virus' will infect the "Angel" show just as it did the > "Buffy" show. > > > Plus... > > > > (Story idea for S5 below...) > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > .. > > . > > . > > . > > . > > I think it could be very interesting if Spike shows up as an > > *antagonist* figure to the newly establishment-aligned Fang Gang. How > > ironic would it be if Angel Investigations is now the untrustworthy > > faceless corporation, and Spike is the scrappy loner in a shitty little > > office who's trying to stand up for right against their might? > > Ah, see, this is exactly what I mean. So, Spike will be the the > good guy attempting to show Angel&Co. the mistakes they've made. > Great. That's exactly what I don't want to see, and exactly what > troubles me about his presence. My thoughts exactly. -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-14 01:51:36+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030513022334.24776.00000254@mb-m06.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >From: "Linda" lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com > >Date: 5/12/2003 6:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <i1Yva.578411$wa2.83333@news.easynews.com> > > > > >I can see no reason to bring Spike to Angel other than to piss off viewers > >like me. > > Yep, it's all about you, Linda. ;) LOL. Yeah, and a few others. -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-14 01:51:46+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"SWeick" <sweick@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030513035215.16173.00000451@mb-m28.aol.com... > In article <20030512233707.11659.00000236@mb-m12.aol.com>, > johnnydarko1979@aol.com (JohnnyDarko1979) writes: > > >considering Buffy is over now.... a lot of us still want our Spike to > >continue. > > > And a large number of us feel that "our Spike" that you want to > continue has no business being on Angel. > > OTOH, if they destroy that "our Spike" and rebuild the character, > then it could work. If the writing is done well. Which it hasn't > been as good the past season and a half on Angel. Longer on BtVS. The writing for the characters with the exception of Cordelia has been excellent this last season and a half. > > > I like Angel anyways, but you cannot deny that for 1 Spike > >basher, there aren't 10 people who love Spike and think he's the best thing > >Buffy has going for it. > > > BtVS best thing it had going for it was the outstanding writing of the first > three seasons, most of which was Spikeless. The worst thing was > when the writers relied on a character's popularity over good writing. > > The best thing BtVS has going for it now is that it is ending. Probably > about four seasons too late (though it could be argued only two). No, you were right the first time. > > > >It's selfish to think because a few of you hate Spike that his story > >shouldn't > >continue when he is by far the most popular character on Buffy, even moreso > >than Buffy herself is. Many of us love Spike and are glad to see him > >continue. > > > So not fitting into the storyline isn't a big with you, I take it. > > Nor character orchestration, which doesn't seem to be with ME > anymore either. > > If you'll check, we also hated Buffy being on Angel. She didn't > fit in here either. Well, I thought the two episodes she did for Angel were just enough. I could hope she'll be in just one more. Wouldn't ruin it for me at all. > > > > Plus, Spike going over to Angel kinda takes some of the sadness of > >the show ending away, because the best character will still be on another > >show. > > > Giles is going to be on Angel? > > Cool! > > Or did ME finally get Ripper off the ground? LOL, I only wish. Mmmmmm....Giles. Uh, where was I? -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-14 01:51:55+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030513022742.24776.00000255@mb-m06.aol.com... > Linda wrotE: > > > > >And do you realize that now that Buffy is ending that all those posters on > >ATBVS will probably subscribe to ATA and make this NG as noisy and as > >impossible to post to as ATBVS is now. Which is the reason I haven't read > >that other NG for two years. > > > > You could leave, making yourself and all of those people much happier. > > You see? The venom can so easily poison both ways. And so far, it's not the > Spike-lovers spewing it. Come on, Roaz, let me vent. I'll try and get it out of my system before the summer is over - I promise. To tell you the truth, I trust the Angel writers. We just went through one hell of a season with just a few episodes that didn't thrill me. [1] The staff that ME had this last year was wonderful. Come next fall I'm sure that these same writers will know how to handle the Spike character, much more so than those Buffy writers. All I can hope is that I can say the same at the end of next season. -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick [1] Those would be SHP, IO, Sacrifice and GS

2003-05-14 01:52:04+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030513053556.11698.00000320@mb-m12.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! > >From: sweick@aol.com (SWeick) > >Date: 5/12/2003 11:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <20030513025854.26892.00000340@mb-m04.aol.com> > > > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > > > > > >> > >>Linda wrote: > >> > >>> > >>>And do you realize that now that Buffy is ending that all those posters on > >>>ATBVS will probably subscribe to ATA and make this NG as noisy and as > >>>impossible to post to as ATBVS is now. Which is the reason I haven't read > >>>that other NG for two years. > >>> > >> > >>You could leave, making yourself and all of those people much happier. > > > > > >Not that anyone ever said that to you, right? > > > > > >>You see? The venom can so easily poison both ways. And so far, it's not > >the > >>Spike-lovers spewing it. > > > > > >We had a Spike-lover insist that Spike will "save" AtS just as he > >"saved" BtVS after Riley destroyed it. > > > > That's not venom directed at people who are or will be posting here, it's an > opinion about a character. I guess what most upsets me is that I could come home from work, read some of the NG, do the other things I needed to do while taking a peek at some more posts and possibly replying to them all in the same night. I haven't been able to do that since last week because there are just too many to read. I'm going to have to start choosing which posts and posters to read in my limited time and maybe miss something significant. Adding Spike to the cast will make that even more difficult. Yes, he'll probably bring in more viewers which is a good thing if we want Angel to continue for a sixth or even a seventh season. But the viewers should already have been watching Angel (unless of course they're like Smaug). I doubt they'll stay even for Spike as most average viewers won't *get* the metaphors, subtext, in jokes, philosophy, themes, etc. behind Angel. (Unless of course, they're dropping anvils.) I watch four shows - Angel, Buffy, Fear Factor and SG1. The only can't miss show for me is Angel. Spike ruined my enjoyment of Buffy (but not as much as Riley) and I just don't want a repeat of that. I'm watching Buffy to the end as I'm a completist and I'll do the same with Angel -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-14 01:52:31+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:BTR1702-9B78B1.06462313052003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > In article <20030513053447.11698.00000319@mb-m12.aol.com>, > fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > > > But just wait. I will have my moment too -- if and when it's announced > > that PodGiles will be added to AtS as a recurring character. I will tear my > > proverbial hair and post 16 times that it would be better for all the AtS > > actors to commit suicide at the same time than for PodGiles to skank up > > the sacred sets of AtS for even a millisecond. ;p > > Post what you like but I would rather any version of Giles to become a > regular on ANGEL than even one episode of Spike. Hear, hear! -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-14 01:53:00+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (twc6@aol.com.org)


<<:Then why is she "looking for other work"? Something isn't making sense. Something that takes less time each day than filming _Angel_ did is my guess.>> I don't think such a job exists -- I mean, she was barely on last season! And if all was kosher and she just wanted to spend more time with her family, I am sure ME could have given her a Giles-type deal. Again, there is more going on here than we are being told.

2003-05-14 02:12:17+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"Peyton" <ladypeyton@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:9c27d64c.0305130900.3487d03b@posting.google.com... > sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote in message news:<20030513035216.16173.00000452@mb-m28.aol.com>... > > In article <9c27d64c.0305121707.7b8583b5@posting.google.com>, > > ladypeyton@yahoo.com (Peyton) writes: > > I would hate to watch an AtS that became the Spike show but I don't > see that happening next year. It's entirely possible that the reason > Spike's moved to AtS is to keep the character fresh in order to have > him around for a potential spinoff. I for one don't give a lot of > hope to Eliza's Fox show and it's also entirely possible that the year > after next we'll actually *get* FtVS with Spike moving from AtS to > FtVS as was originally intended. I don't know because I'm just a ME > fan. Much more a ME fan than you are it seems. Man, if that ever happened I don't know what I'd do. Half of me would love to see Faith, the Vampire Slayer but the other half of me would hate to see Spike on Faith, the Vampire Slayer. I think it would tear me in two! -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-14 03:35:44+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > In article <b9qmeg$lle3c$2@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de>, AE Jabbour > <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote: [snip] >> But just watching old "Angel" episodes (at least S1, since that's >> all I have on DVD) has renewed my appreciation of Cordelia, and >> the writing for her. > > > It wasn't even so much the writing as Cam Carpenter's delivery. You > could have another actress perform the same script and not have nearly > the same effect. Oh, by all means, she was great. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. -- A.E. Jabbour You don't learn that kind of darkness - it's inate. It was in you before we ever met. You said you can smell me? Well I can smell you too. My boy's in there, and he wants out. Darla, "Dear Boy"

2003-05-14 03:41:07+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: >>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >>From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net >>Date: 5/13/2003 8:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time >>Message-id: <b9r38k$m0q06$1@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de> >>Ok, firstly, I have no idea how close >"Angel" was to being cancelled. > > In a recent interview, David Boreanaz himself, until then always optimistic, > expressed doubts whether Angel would be renewed. And I still have no idea how close "Angel" was to being cancelled. -- A.E. Jabbour You don't learn that kind of darkness - it's inate. It was in you before we ever met. You said you can smell me? Well I can smell you too. My boy's in there, and he wants out. Darla, "Dear Boy"

2003-05-14 04:18:06+00:00 - Re: (spoiler for tonight's ep added) Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (spoiler for tonight's ep added) - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"Peyton" <ladypeyton@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:9c27d64c.0305130834.3a1bf5c9@posting.google.com... > "Kamil" <kamil@cox.netted> wrote in message news:<0_Zva.64481$3n5.60373@news2.central.cox.net>... > > "Peyton" <ladypeyton@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:9c27d64c.0305121707.7b8583b5@posting.google.com... Snip a lot Just read this as I've finally seen tonight's episode. > > I think it's a complete shame that you think DB and the character > Angel can't hold their own when sharing screentime with JM. I > certainly don't feel that way. Remember - the true star of BtVS AND > AtS is not SMG, DB OR JM. It's Joss Whedon. Joss only has one show > left on TV and he's gonna tell the story he's gonna tell no matter > what. Spuffies and Ducks alike are just learning that. Also, JM > won't be the male lead on AtS as he was on BtVS (filling Angel's shoes > for the past few seasons) so of *course* we won't see him getting the > types of stories he was getting on BtVS. > > My motto is "Trust in Joss" and I've never seen anything to make that > motto untrue. I totally agree with you here. JM & DB > SPARKLE onscreen together and I can't wait to see more of the magic we > got in In The Dark. I'm holding my breath in anticipation of a > possible reappearance of Drusilla and even possibly Darla - since WR&H > have no problem getting dead people to work for them - and would > *LOVE* to see a new storyline involving the *original* fang gang. Wish you had said this to me earlier. I loved *In the Dark* . > > AtS is made in the shade next year and I see at least 2 more seasons > of good ME storytelling before me. There's nothing like it (even at > it's worst) anywhere else on television and I rejoice that I don't > have to go cold turkey from it as should every fan of a ME show. If the writers can do stories as good as *In the Dark* then I'm with you. I have to believe in the writers or I'll start ranting again. It was bad when they cancelled Firefly. I've never taken drugs but I think that's what withdrawal is like. I've just got to trust in Joss. -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-14 04:19:47+00:00 - Re: (spoiler for tonight's ep added) Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! (spoiler for tonight's ep added) - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"Kamil" <kamil@cox.netted> wrote in message news:oodwa.67453$3n5.23108@news2.central.cox.net... > > "Mark Jones" <sinanju@pacifier.com> wrote in message > news:3EC124FB.7000504@pacifier.com... > > Peyton wrote: Snip > > Stand By Your Rapist did it for me. On a show about female empowerment. Or > supposedly about female empowerment. Hasn't been for a really long time now. > That's the reason I won't stick around to watch Angel after Spike transfers > over; it has nothing to do with believing that DB and the others can't hold > their own (please, the Angel regulars can actually *act*, as opposed to > chewing the scenery every time the camera turns their direction). > > It's because I don't want to see Angel's theme of personal redemption > destroyed and turned into the "Spike School of Redemption Through Cheekbones." LOL. I'm going to have to put this one in my Angel file. -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-14 05:10:48+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <26b7e9d4.0305131438.47a37189@posting.google.com>, tymcneal@hotmail.com (Terry McNeal) writes: >sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote in message >news:<20030513035216.16173.00000453@mb-m28.aol.com>... > >> Cordelia wasn't on the show last year, and the actress isn't >> going to be on all that much this next season. > >"Charisma Carpenter is looking for other work and has no plans to >appear on _Angel_ in any capacity" is how I'm hearing it from >'sources.' So she's paid her mortgage off, got the baby's college fund all done, and retirement plans fully funded? Honestly, I can't blame her for looking, cause hour long show productions drag on forever, but if she's not a regular, but a frequent guest star, it should give her both time and income. But if she finds new work, fine. We'll get to see her on some new production. If she becomes a stay at home mom, good luck to her. But we will miss her. >> Damn, I'm getting more depressed than Terry about next season. > >I read this <http://tv.zap2it.com/news/tvnewsdaily.html?31560> and >then deleted my season pass for _Angel_ from TiVo. 'As for Lilah's former office rival, one-handed lawyer Lindsey McDonald (Christian Kane), last seen in season two, Greenwalt says, "It's funny, David [Boreanaz] had said that to me, too, 'I'd love to see him come back.' They're buddies, and Christian brings a lot to the party. Him walking in the door with his porcelain hand wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen. It's on my wish list." ' Seeing that Greenwalt can't even remember that *he* gave Lindsey a new "evil" hand in "Dead End", I'm not too hopeful myself that he's really that involved with Angel anymore. And with Tim gone, Joss not caring, and Jeff Bell doing just OK at this seasons end, not all that hopeful that things will be turning around. Hope I'm wrong, and will give next season a try. OK, so I'm a glutton for punishment. I've kept thinking BtVS was going to turn around. Color me sucker. Amazingly, ME >overcame my anal retentive need to complete what I started, 'cause if >this season was one long "The Wish," next season sounds like one long >"Provider." And while I liked "The Wish" as a one-off 'what if...' >episode, "Provider" just sucked. The theme could actually work. "Provider" sucked not because the theme of "money isn't everything, it's family that counts" was so poorly done. Bringing an infant to a fight tends to run counter to the theme. This theme isn't about how evil it is to go for the dough. It's how you have to still stay on target while weighted down by the nice material life. The fact that in real life you do have to make choices in the gray, and not just good over evil. And if Spike's evil again, then we won't have the fear of this becoming Spike: The Series. >OTOH, I'm not depressed about next season. True, that's the advantage of not caring. OTOH, I'm out of having to do that arc analysis. Who cares how they screwed up Cordelia if Charisma's not around? Who cares how they screwed up Connor if Vincent's gone? Who cares about season arcs that are now just going to be ignored? Oh well, hope this next attempt at a new show works better than these past two seasons. Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-14 12:44:19-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (reldevik@usa.net)


Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3EBFA045.4080BE3E@hotmail.com>... > DoThompso wrote: > > > > >From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > > > > <snip> > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > > > >Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > > >turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > > >piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > > > > Exactly, its like transplanting a cancer *into* a patient. Hopefully, Tim et > > al. will treat Spike like the marginal player he is and keep Marsters from > > chewing the scenery. > > Unfortunately several Buffy writers are supposed to write for Angel next > season. And while I agree with Lord Usher that removing Spike from Buffy > should do a lot of good, the main problem (IMHO) with SPike these last > few years has been that the Buffy writers simply loved Spike/JM too much > to keep him in his designated role. --Who ever said a character could only have one never-changing designated role? Have you ever heard of characters who go through interesting changes -- evolve -- develop in new directions? I will never understand the people who are so filled with hatred for a fascinating, many-faceted character played by a talented actor. That kind of hatred is what strikes me as a cancer -- not Spike or James Marsters. Clairel

2003-05-14 16:36:39-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


Clairel wrote: > Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3EBFA045.4080BE3E@hotmail.com>... > >>DoThompso wrote: >> >>>>From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net >>> >>><snip> >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>> >>> >>>>Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >>>>turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >>>>piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? >>> >>>Exactly, its like transplanting a cancer *into* a patient. Hopefully, Tim et >>>al. will treat Spike like the marginal player he is and keep Marsters from >>>chewing the scenery. >> >>Unfortunately several Buffy writers are supposed to write for Angel next >>season. And while I agree with Lord Usher that removing Spike from Buffy >>should do a lot of good, the main problem (IMHO) with SPike these last >>few years has been that the Buffy writers simply loved Spike/JM too much >>to keep him in his designated role. > > > --Who ever said a character could only have one never-changing > designated role? Have you ever heard of characters who go through > interesting changes -- evolve -- develop in new directions? I have. I also have watched with my own two eyes as the TPTB at Mutant Enemy (and, by necessity, the characters on Buffy) spent several seasons not staking Spike despite endless opportunities and DAMN GOOD REASON. That, in my opinion, is what drives a lot of the Spike hatred. We could SEE how the popularity of the character was warping the show. The other characters had to behave unreasonably (stupidly) in order for Spike to hang around with them when by all rights they ought to have dusted him years ago. > I will never understand the people who are so filled with hatred for a > fascinating, many-faceted character played by a talented actor. That > kind of hatred is what strikes me as a cancer -- not Spike or James > Marsters. No, Spike is the cancer. (Well, no, not really. Pandering to the audience is the cancer; Spike's implausible survival because he's popular, thereby making the heroes look like grinning idiots, is the real cancer. Spike is just a symptom. Just like Dawn.)

2003-05-14 18:07:26+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (benvarkent@aol.com)


>fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in >news:20030513011726.24776.00000251@mb-m06.aol.com: > >> But you misunderstand my post. Spike was turned into a serious >> dramatic character, I'm sorry, what? Ben Varkentine "Don't steal from anyone. Especially the best. Your own stuff will pale immeasurably."--Larry Gelbart Read my film, music and book reviews at http://ink19.com/ (new) & http://popmatters.com/ (archival)

2003-05-14 19:02:14+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: benvarkent@aol.com (Ben Varkentine) >Date: 5/14/2003 11:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030514140726.04098.00000029@mb-m01.aol.com> > >>fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in >>news:20030513011726.24776.00000251@mb-m06.aol.com: >> >>> But you misunderstand my post. Spike was turned into a serious >>> dramatic character, > >I'm sorry, what? > uhluzersezwut? (just kidding)

2003-05-14 22:59:00+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 14 May 2003 05:10:48 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :In article <26b7e9d4.0305131438.47a37189@posting.google.com>, :tymcneal@hotmail.com (Terry McNeal) writes: : :>"Charisma Carpenter is looking for other work and has no plans to :>appear on _Angel_ in any capacity" is how I'm hearing it from :>'sources.' : :So she's paid her mortgage off, got the baby's college fund :all done, and retirement plans fully funded? Well, no, I suppose that's why she's looking for other work rather than retiring and moving to Boca Raton. But Shalazar's now posted the same info on c-c.com, so it's looking more and more like CC's done with _Angel_. :But we will miss her. Well, duh. But this is probably better than turning Cordy into the designated buffoon. Or the giant reset button the emotionally crippled want. And on the upside, when Joss finally gets a clue, we'll get this scene at the end of season five after all the W&H stupidity is over with and Spike, Buffy, and Willow have all died tragically: ANGEL Cordelia? But we thought you were dead. CORDELIA Yeah, I care what you rocket scientists think. Look, they sent me back 'cause you retards haven't done a single thing since I've been gone. As of now, you're working for me. :Seeing that Greenwalt can't even remember that *he* gave Lindsey a :new "evil" hand in "Dead End", I'm not too hopeful myself that he's :really that involved with Angel anymore. And with Tim gone, Joss not caring, :and Jeff Bell doing just OK at this seasons end, not all that hopeful that :things will be turning around. : :Hope I'm wrong, and will give next season a try. Hope is good. I mean, it paid off on _Buffy_. :OK, so I'm a glutton for punishment. I've kept thinking BtVS :was going to turn around. Color me sucker. I'll check out any episode that has NB as a guest star, or if ME pulls their head out of their ass and gets CC back to vacuum up the Spike dust, but otherwise it's _The West Wing_ for me. Maybe during TWW reruns. :The theme could actually work. "Provider" sucked not because :the theme of "money isn't everything, it's family that counts" :was so poorly done. Bringing an infant to a fight tends to run :counter to the theme. If only that were the only reason "Provider" sucked. But when you have an entire season set up because Wesley, who has ample personal experience to the contrary, tells everyone they can trust W&H, you're not building a solid foundation. :And if Spike's evil again, then we won't have the fear of this :becoming Spike: The Series. The only chance he won't is if Joss remembers who the show is supposed to be about. Like he did with _Buffy_. :OTOH, I'm out of having to do that arc analysis. :Who cares how they screwed up Cordelia if Charisma's :not around? Who cares how they screwed up Connor :if Vincent's gone? Who cares about season arcs that :are now just going to be ignored? I suspect ME didn't put up any kind of fight to keep CC just because without Cordy or Connor being around, they don't even have to pretend season four ever happened, leaving them free to concentrate on _The Spike and That Other Guy Show_. Still, you have an opportunity here to discuss how ME has done an arc (or two) so poorly that the only resolution ME could come up with is to get rid of the character(s) completely. Jump on it. :Oh well, hope this next attempt at a new show works :better than these past two seasons. Yeah, 'cause ME has a great track record when it comes to changing metaphors in mid-series, not to mention their history of using Spike with restraint. I'm all a'twitter. Terry

2003-05-14 23:00:27+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 14 May 2003 01:53:00 GMT, twc6@aol.com.org (Twc6) wrote: :<<:Then why is she "looking for other work"? Something isn't making sense. : :Something that takes less time each day than filming _Angel_ did is my :guess.>> : :I don't think such a job exists Actually, hour-long TV shows are harder than other acting gigs. Soaps and sitcoms are practically 9-5 jobs with weekends off; _Angel_ has the cast and crew working 14 - 15 hour days, eight days straight per episode. And Seth Green recently mentioned that in the three months he was contracted for the Scooby-Doo sequel, he worked 25 days. Pretty sweet deal there as well. :And :if all was kosher and she just wanted to spend more time with her family, I am :sure ME could have given her a Giles-type deal. Maybe CC saw what it did for Giles and decided it wasn't what she wanted after all. :Again, there is more going on here than we are being told. Almost certainly. Terry

2003-05-15 03:59:26+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <aoh5cvkm1h4vg1a1uf4e78l8h64nk8vvn8@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >On 14 May 2003 05:10:48 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > >:In article <26b7e9d4.0305131438.47a37189@posting.google.com>, >:tymcneal@hotmail.com (Terry McNeal) writes: >: >But Shalazar's now posted the >same info on c-c.com, so it's looking more and more like CC's done >with _Angel_. > >:But we will miss her. > >Well, duh. But this is probably better than turning Cordy into the >designated buffoon. Or the giant reset button the emotionally crippled >want. True. >And on the upside, when Joss finally gets a clue... I think hope ends about there. >:Seeing that Greenwalt can't even remember that *he* gave Lindsey a >:new "evil" hand in "Dead End", I'm not too hopeful myself that he's >:really that involved with Angel anymore. And with Tim gone, Joss not >caring, >:and Jeff Bell doing just OK at this seasons end, not all that hopeful that >:things will be turning around. >: >:Hope I'm wrong, and will give next season a try. > >Hope is good. I mean, it paid off on _Buffy_. Yeah, Hope got the hell out of town and away from Buffy. Scott Hope was good. Hearing that Greenwalt's gonna be a showrunner on another show, that other hope's gotten out of town too. >:OK, so I'm a glutton for punishment. I've kept thinking BtVS >:was going to turn around. Color me sucker. > >I'll check out any episode that has NB as a guest star, Seeing he now has another gig, not likely. or if ME pulls >their head out of their ass and gets CC back to vacuum up the Spike >dust, Again with the ending of hope. Spike will never be killed off. Never. >:The theme could actually work. "Provider" sucked not because >:the theme of "money isn't everything, it's family that counts" >:was so poorly done. Bringing an infant to a fight tends to run >:counter to the theme. > >If only that were the only reason "Provider" sucked. It wasn't, but the theme wasn't the cause of it sucking. But when you have >an entire season set up because Wesley, who has ample personal >experience to the contrary, tells everyone they can trust W&H, you're >not building a solid foundation. No, but you can hope -- have faith -- oh hell, we're screwed. >:And if Spike's evil again, then we won't have the fear of this >:becoming Spike: The Series. > >The only chance he won't is if Joss remembers who the show is supposed >to be about. Like he did with _Buffy_. Would it be me if I became rational and just quit watching? Hell, I even taped EoD, and discovered it was better written than Empty Spaces. Which meant it only sucked. Badly. Next episode Joss gets to prove why he'll never be given the controls of a big screen action project. >:OTOH, I'm out of having to do that arc analysis. >:Who cares how they screwed up Cordelia if Charisma's >:not around? Who cares how they screwed up Connor >:if Vincent's gone? Who cares about season arcs that >:are now just going to be ignored? > >I suspect ME didn't put up any kind of fight to keep CC just because >without Cordy or Connor being around, they don't even have to pretend >season four ever happened, leaving them free to concentrate on _The >Spike and That Other Guy Show_. So they sold Spike's soul to get another season of Angel? Why bother? >Still, you have an opportunity here to discuss how ME has done an arc >(or two) so poorly that the only resolution ME could come up with is >to get rid of the character(s) completely. Jump on it. I don't do obvious. >:Oh well, hope this next attempt at a new show works >:better than these past two seasons. > >Yeah, 'cause ME has a great track record when it comes to changing >metaphors in mid-series, not to mention their history of using Spike >with restraint. I'm all a'twitter. Fred's gonna be a magic crack ho junkie? Who knew? As far as Spike, no I have little hope they won't use him just as they did in S4/S5/S6/S7 BtVS. But seeing that Angel's on the bubble again and that if it doesn't increase its ratings from Smallville's lead, it's gone, not seeing getting upset over the final season. Just like not getting upset over the last one of BtVS, no matter how much it sucked. (BTW, if there were *three* UberVamps running around, why didn't they just go and kill all the potentials? And where did the Ubers come from? And why do I expect ME to actually care enough to bother with solid writing anymore when crap is easier and gets the same ratings?) Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-15 07:08:37-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (George Avalos <gavalos@mindspring.com>)


"Linda" <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com> wrote in > I can see no reason to bring Spike to Angel other than to piss off viewers > like me. You really didn't mean to say something that dumb, right? The Spike move could be brilliant or dumb as rocks. But do you *seriously* think they did it just to deliberately hack off a certain sector of 'Angel' fans? Obviously, it is being done in hopes of improving the show's ratings or quality or both. -George

2003-05-15 17:47:17+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (benvarkent@aol.com)


>The Spike move could be brilliant or dumb as rocks. But do you *seriously* >think they did it just to deliberately hack off a certain sector of 'Angel' >fans? Obviously, it is being done in hopes of improving the show's ratings >or quality or both. Or in fear that if they actually did what needs to be done, what the dictates of the story have demanded for years now, and killed him, they'd lose a couple more million viewers they can't afford to lose. These people have house payments to make, you know. Not that the story isn't paramount in every creative decision, god knows... Ben Varkentine "Don't steal from anyone. Especially the best. Your own stuff will pale immeasurably."--Larry Gelbart Read my film, music and book reviews at http://ink19.com/ (new) & http://popmatters.com/ (archival)

2003-05-15 18:38:03-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (reldevik@usa.net)


benvarkent@aol.com (Ben Varkentine) wrote in message news:<20030515134717.17582.00000122@mb-m15.aol.com>... > >The Spike move could be brilliant or dumb as rocks. But do you *seriously* > >think they did it just to deliberately hack off a certain sector of 'Angel' > >fans? Obviously, it is being done in hopes of improving the show's ratings > >or quality or both. > > Or in fear that if they actually did what needs to be done, what the dictates > of the story have demanded for years now, and killed him, --I can see the argument that Buffy shouldn't have let Spike live in season 4. I don't agree with it, but I can see it. But what on earth is the sense of using the present tense--"needs to be done"--in talking about the killing of Spike? Why do the dictates of the story *now* demand that Spike be killed? He isn't soulless. He isn't evil. He isn't under the FE's control. He's doing good. Why on earth should he be killed *now*? What do you mean? they'd lose a couple > more million viewers they can't afford to lose. --Ever consider the possibility that the couple million viewers Spike's presence could draw in are *right* to want to see more of him? It's not as if they like watching Spike for no reason. There are very good reasons. And Joss knows it. Clairel

2003-05-15 18:45:03-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (reldevik@usa.net)


Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com> wrote in message news:<3EC2D307.2000502@pacifier.com>... > Clairel wrote: > > Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3EBFA045.4080BE3E@hotmail.com>... > > > >>DoThompso wrote: > >> > >>>>From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net > >>> > >>><snip> > >>>. > >>>. > >>>. > >>>. > >>>. > >>>. > >>>. > >>>. > >>> > >>> > >>>>Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > >>>>turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > >>>>piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? > >>> > >>>Exactly, its like transplanting a cancer *into* a patient. Hopefully, Tim et > >>>al. will treat Spike like the marginal player he is and keep Marsters from > >>>chewing the scenery. > >> > >>Unfortunately several Buffy writers are supposed to write for Angel next > >>season. And while I agree with Lord Usher that removing Spike from Buffy > >>should do a lot of good, the main problem (IMHO) with SPike these last > >>few years has been that the Buffy writers simply loved Spike/JM too much > >>to keep him in his designated role. > > > > > > --Who ever said a character could only have one never-changing > > designated role? Have you ever heard of characters who go through > > interesting changes -- evolve -- develop in new directions? > > I have. I also have watched with my own two eyes as the TPTB at Mutant > Enemy (and, by necessity, the characters on Buffy) spent several seasons > not staking Spike despite endless opportunities and DAMN GOOD REASON. > That, in my opinion, is what drives a lot of the Spike hatred. We could > SEE how the popularity of the character was warping the show. The other > characters had to behave unreasonably (stupidly) in order for Spike to > hang around with them when by all rights they ought to have dusted him > years ago. > > > I will never understand the people who are so filled with hatred for a > > fascinating, many-faceted character played by a talented actor. That > > kind of hatred is what strikes me as a cancer -- not Spike or James > > Marsters. > > No, Spike is the cancer. (Well, no, not really. Pandering to the > audience is the cancer; Spike's implausible survival because he's > popular, thereby making the heroes look like grinning idiots, is the > real cancer. Spike is just a symptom. Just like Dawn.) --Nope. The hatred you're expressing is the cancer. This latest blast of venom just reconfirms that. And when people in the television industry provide the audience with satisfying entertainment, that is not pandering. It's doing their jobs well. The audience is not monolithic, of course. A few people out there harbor hatred toward the character of Spike. But thousands more, perhaps millions more, love watching him. ME and the WB know that; they know whom to aim for. It must make you feel pretty insignificant, doesn't it? Clairel

2003-05-15 21:45:27+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: benvarkent@aol.com (Ben Varkentine) >Date: 5/15/2003 10:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030515134717.17582.00000122@mb-m15.aol.com> > >>The Spike move could be brilliant or dumb as rocks. But do you *seriously* >>think they did it just to deliberately hack off a certain sector of 'Angel' >>fans? Obviously, it is being done in hopes of improving the show's ratings >>or quality or both. > >Or in fear that if they actually did what needs to be done, what the dictates >of the story have demanded for years now, and killed him, they'd lose a >couple >more million viewers they can't afford to lose. These people have house >payments to make, you know. Not that the story isn't paramount in every >creative decision, god knows... > If Angel had been cancelled, no creative decisions on the show would be occurring. Early this fall, I didn't think Angel should go on another season but I was so jazzed by the latter half of the season that I am glad they saved it, and I am one of those who sort hoped Spike had gone as far as he could go, despite my fandom.

2003-05-15 22:34:54-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


reldevik@usa.net (Clairel), on or about 15 May 2003 18:45:03 -0700, did you or did you not state: >> No, Spike is the cancer. (Well, no, not really. Pandering to the >> audience is the cancer; Spike's implausible survival because he's >> popular, thereby making the heroes look like grinning idiots, is the >> real cancer. Spike is just a symptom. Just like Dawn.) > >--Nope. The hatred you're expressing is the cancer. This latest >blast of venom just reconfirms that. Nope, lame-ass writing and pandering to the audience are the cancer. >And when people in the television industry provide the audience with >satisfying entertainment, that is not pandering. It's doing their >jobs well. Then they're failing miserably. >The audience is not monolithic, of course. A few people out there >harbor hatred toward the character of Spike. But thousands more, >perhaps millions more, love watching him. Oooooof course they do. That's why the ratings for Buffy have skyrocketed since season four. Oh, wait. They haven't. Oops. > ME and the WB know that; >they know whom to aim for. It must make you feel pretty >insignificant, doesn't it? Heh. Why should it? If you enjoy eating the shit they're dishing out these days, why should that bother me? There's a reason I stopped watching Buffy. -- "It will let you do things nobody else can do, see things nobody else can see." "_Real_ things?" --Egg Shen and Jack Burton

2003-05-15 23:12:35+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 15 May 2003 03:59:26 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :In article <aoh5cvkm1h4vg1a1uf4e78l8h64nk8vvn8@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: : :>On 14 May 2003 05:10:48 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :> :>Well, duh. But this is probably better than turning Cordy into the :>designated buffoon. Or the giant reset button the emotionally crippled :>want. : :True. Fury and Minear confirmed last night during the Succubus thing that EvilCordy was done to reset Cordy's character growth. Apparently Plan A was to have Cordy return as a higher being, but then they decided they didn't like that idea, so EvilCordy was supposed to take it all back. Hacks. :>And on the upside, when Joss finally gets a clue... : :I think hope ends about there. Yep. :>Hope is good. I mean, it paid off on _Buffy_. : :Yeah, Hope got the hell out of town and away from Buffy. : :Scott Hope was good. And for that, they decided he was gay. Do you have to be gay to be able to see that Buffy is really bad news? :Hearing that Greenwalt's gonna be a showrunner on another :show, that other hope's gotten out of town too. Yep. And on Wednesday at 9 as well. Just for the irony. I wonder if he needs a beautiful female sidekick for Jake. :>I'll check out any episode that has NB as a guest star, : :Seeing he now has another gig, not likely. But not impossible. : or if ME pulls :>their head out of their ass and gets CC back to vacuum up the Spike :>dust, : :Spike will never be killed off. Never. Yeah, I know. But they planned to make him the male lead on any spin-off, so there's hope he's only marking time on _Angel_. :>If only that were the only reason "Provider" sucked. : :It wasn't, but the theme wasn't the cause of it sucking. No, it wasn't. The problem was that "Provider" required the characters to abandon everything they'd believed in up to that point for no apparent reason. The only difference is this upcoming season is they've abandoned everything they'd believed in up to this point for a lousy reason. : But when you have :>an entire season set up because Wesley, who has ample personal :>experience to the contrary, tells everyone they can trust W&H, you're :>not building a solid foundation. : :No, but you can hope -- have faith -- oh hell, we're screwed. Now you're getting it. :>The only chance he won't is if Joss remembers who the show is supposed :>to be about. Like he did with _Buffy_. : :Would it be me if I became rational and just quit watching? Hell, :I even taped EoD, and discovered it was better written than Empty :Spaces. Which meant it only sucked. Badly. I saw most of it. Whatever. :Next episode Joss gets to prove why he'll never be given the controls :of a big screen action project. No, man, the cookie dough speech will save it. :>I suspect ME didn't put up any kind of fight to keep CC just because :>without Cordy or Connor being around, they don't even have to pretend :>season four ever happened, leaving them free to concentrate on _The :>Spike and That Other Guy Show_. : :So they sold Spike's soul to get another season of Angel? : :Why bother? Another thing Fury and Minear said was bringing Marsters over was in no way related to getting _Angel_ renewed. However, F&M said ME only wanted Spike part-time, but the suits at the WB insisted he be made a regular. So do the math. :>Still, you have an opportunity here to discuss how ME has done an arc :>(or two) so poorly that the only resolution ME could come up with is :>to get rid of the character(s) completely. Jump on it. : :I don't do obvious. Well, just as well. M&F claimed Angel fulfilling Sahjan's prophecy was always going to happen. :>Yeah, 'cause ME has a great track record when it comes to changing :>metaphors in mid-series, not to mention their history of using Spike :>with restraint. I'm all a'twitter. : :Fred's gonna be a magic crack ho junkie? Who knew? Well, according to StB Fred's got the history. :As far as Spike, no I have little hope they won't use him :just as they did in S4/S5/S6/S7 BtVS. But seeing that :Angel's on the bubble again and that if it doesn't increase :its ratings from Smallville's lead, it's gone, not seeing getting :upset over the final season. Just like not getting upset over :the last one of BtVS, no matter how much it sucked. I hear ya. :(BTW, if there were *three* UberVamps running around, :why didn't they just go and kill all the potentials? They were too polite to take on more than one at a time. It's the end of mankind, not good manners. :And where did the Ubers come from? They came out of the extra's locker room. : And why do I expect ME :to actually care enough to bother with solid writing anymore :when crap is easier and gets the same ratings?) Hey, if you're going to write a story about a bunch of people selling out, you need to know what you're talking about. Terry

2003-05-15 23:39:14-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com>)


reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: >Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com> wrote in message news:<3EC2D307.2000502@pacifier.com>... >> Clairel wrote: >> > Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3EBFA045.4080BE3E@hotmail.com>... >> > >> >>DoThompso wrote: >> >> >> >>>>From: AE Jabbour aej17DELETEME@comcast.net >> >>> >> >>><snip> >> >>>. >> >>>. >> >>>. >> >>>. >> >>>. >> >>>. >> >>>. >> >>>. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>>Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally >> >>>>turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that >> >>>>piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of "Buffy"? >> >>> >> >>>Exactly, its like transplanting a cancer *into* a patient. Hopefully, Tim et >> >>>al. will treat Spike like the marginal player he is and keep Marsters from >> >>>chewing the scenery. >> >> >> >>Unfortunately several Buffy writers are supposed to write for Angel next >> >>season. And while I agree with Lord Usher that removing Spike from Buffy >> >>should do a lot of good, the main problem (IMHO) with SPike these last >> >>few years has been that the Buffy writers simply loved Spike/JM too much >> >>to keep him in his designated role. >> > >> > >> > --Who ever said a character could only have one never-changing >> > designated role? Have you ever heard of characters who go through >> > interesting changes -- evolve -- develop in new directions? >> >> I have. I also have watched with my own two eyes as the TPTB at Mutant >> Enemy (and, by necessity, the characters on Buffy) spent several seasons >> not staking Spike despite endless opportunities and DAMN GOOD REASON. >> That, in my opinion, is what drives a lot of the Spike hatred. We could >> SEE how the popularity of the character was warping the show. The other >> characters had to behave unreasonably (stupidly) in order for Spike to >> hang around with them when by all rights they ought to have dusted him >> years ago. >> >> > I will never understand the people who are so filled with hatred for a >> > fascinating, many-faceted character played by a talented actor. That >> > kind of hatred is what strikes me as a cancer -- not Spike or James >> > Marsters. >> >> No, Spike is the cancer. (Well, no, not really. Pandering to the >> audience is the cancer; Spike's implausible survival because he's >> popular, thereby making the heroes look like grinning idiots, is the >> real cancer. Spike is just a symptom. Just like Dawn.) > >--Nope. The hatred you're expressing is the cancer. This latest >blast of venom just reconfirms that. > >And when people in the television industry provide the audience with >satisfying entertainment, that is not pandering. It's doing their >jobs well. > >The audience is not monolithic, of course. A few people out there >harbor hatred toward the character of Spike. But thousands more, >perhaps millions more, love watching him. ME and the WB know that; >they know whom to aim for. It must make you feel pretty >insignificant, doesn't it? > >Clairel "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." --- H. L. Mencken --- Ken

2003-05-16 02:51:12+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"George Avalos" <gavalos@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:ba0717$j5t$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > "Linda" <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com> wrote in > > > I can see no reason to bring Spike to Angel other than to piss off viewers > > like me. > > You really didn't mean to say something that dumb, right? Yeah, I said it. I was upset and a little drunk at the time. (Okay, a whole lot drunk). > > The Spike move could be brilliant or dumb as rocks. But do you *seriously* > think they did it just to deliberately hack off a certain sector of 'Angel' > fans? Obviously, it is being done in hopes of improving the show's ratings > or quality or both. I've since calmed down quite a bit. I love the show. I'll follow it until the end. But if the writers do to Angel what they did to Buffy by making Spike the center of attention, then I'll just pretend that Angel ended with *Home*. Just like I pretended that Buffy ended with GDII. -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-16 03:44:05+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <m768cvgvgvn6dockdvt5s5mq385ftq3ahe@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >On 15 May 2003 03:59:26 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > >:In article <aoh5cvkm1h4vg1a1uf4e78l8h64nk8vvn8@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal >:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >: >:>On 14 May 2003 05:10:48 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: >:> >:>Well, duh. But this is probably better than turning Cordy into the >:>designated buffoon. Or the giant reset button the emotionally crippled >:>want. >: >:True. > >Fury and Minear confirmed last night during the Succubus thing that >EvilCordy was done to reset Cordy's character growth. Apparently Plan >A was to have Cordy return as a higher being, but then they decided >they didn't like that idea, so EvilCordy was supposed to take it all >back. Hacks. Well, I have no problems with them deciding that Plan A wouldn't work. I do have a problem that Plan B basically sucked. >:>Hope is good. I mean, it paid off on _Buffy_. >: >:Yeah, Hope got the hell out of town and away from Buffy. >: >:Scott Hope was good. > >And for that, they decided he was gay. Do you have to be gay to be >able to see that Buffy is really bad news? No, but after dating Buffy, I can understand someone wanting to see if there's a better way. Besides, we all know that Scott Hope was bi. >:Hearing that Greenwalt's gonna be a showrunner on another >:show, that other hope's gotten out of town too. > >Yep. And on Wednesday at 9 as well. Just for the irony. I wonder if he >needs a beautiful female sidekick for Jake. Kinda makes that seeing multiple seasons left in AtS not really a reliable, or unbiased, prediction. And look at the bright side, if West Wing sucks next year, you still have a choice. >:>I'll check out any episode that has NB as a guest star, >: >:Seeing he now has another gig, not likely. > >But not impossible. Yeah, but why bother? Of course, I can see an endless stream of the surviving BtVS characters all marching onto Angel as Guest Stars. Dru's a lock, with Spike on board. If Willow's survives, she's bound to be back. And because there is a lack of annoying adolencent geeks on AtS, we all know who that means, and I ain't talking Warren or Jonathan. Besides, without Cordelia, Xander being on AtS looses a ton of impact. >: or if ME pulls >:>their head out of their ass and gets CC back to vacuum up the Spike >:>dust, >: >:Spike will never be killed off. Never. > >Yeah, I know. But they planned to make him the male lead on any >spin-off, so there's hope he's only marking time on _Angel_. Bud, _Angel_ is marking time. And the longer BtVS is off the air, the less likely any spinoff will happen. ME is probably not long for this mortal plane. Remember when you had Howard, David, and Joss together working on a new project based on a so-so flick? Those were the days, my friend. We thought they'd never end... >:>If only that were the only reason "Provider" sucked. >: >:It wasn't, but the theme wasn't the cause of it sucking. > >No, it wasn't. The problem was that "Provider" required the characters >to abandon everything they'd believed in up to that point for no >apparent reason. Yeah, it was kinda the proof that Joss, the man who cares about his characters, had abandoned Angel. The only difference is this upcoming season is >they've abandoned everything they'd believed in up to this point for a >lousy reason. Hey, they're improving! >: But when you have >:>an entire season set up because Wesley, who has ample personal >:>experience to the contrary, tells everyone they can trust W&H, you're >:>not building a solid foundation. >: >:No, but you can hope -- have faith -- oh hell, we're screwed. > >Now you're getting it. Yeah. Here I was arguing that certain things have to logically come out of what they've set up, forgetting they don't give a damn about story logic in the arcs anymore. I gotta see how they ignore the loss of Cordelia as the moral compass, heart, soul, and frequently common sense mind, of the organization. Cause you know they are. >:>The only chance he won't is if Joss remembers who the show is supposed >:>to be about. Like he did with _Buffy_. >: >:Would it be me if I became rational and just quit watching? Hell, >:I even taped EoD, and discovered it was better written than Empty >:Spaces. Which meant it only sucked. Badly. > >I saw most of it. Whatever. Hey, it actually had a couple of cute scenes, that played way too long and took too long to set up. But cute! Watching BtVS these past few seasons is why I'm likely to watch AtS this next season, I just have trouble looking away from the oncoming collision of two trains. >:Next episode Joss gets to prove why he'll never be given the controls >:of a big screen action project. > >No, man, the cookie dough speech will save it. An-ticipa-a-tion, is making me wait. >:>I suspect ME didn't put up any kind of fight to keep CC just because >:>without Cordy or Connor being around, they don't even have to pretend >:>season four ever happened, leaving them free to concentrate on _The >:>Spike and That Other Guy Show_. >: >:So they sold Spike's soul to get another season of Angel? >: >:Why bother? > >Another thing Fury and Minear said was bringing Marsters over was in >no way related to getting _Angel_ renewed. However, F&M said ME only >wanted Spike part-time, but the suits at the WB insisted he be made a >regular. So do the math. Lord knows ME can't. BTW, has anyone yet fessed up to why Charisma isn't there anymore? The sick part of me would love the ironic hypocrisy of the people writing all this pro-woman power stuff actually canning a new mom because they can't work out an easing of her schedule. Or better yet, cause her pregnancy ruined their perfectly planned storyline. I'm just assuming it was a mutual termination of contract. Not the above. >:>Still, you have an opportunity here to discuss how ME has done an arc >:>(or two) so poorly that the only resolution ME could come up with is >:>to get rid of the character(s) completely. Jump on it. >: >:I don't do obvious. > >Well, just as well. M&F claimed Angel fulfilling Sahjan's prophecy was >always going to happen. Of course, Sajhjan's prophecy was supposed to be a crock. It was the LoaBurger's devour that was true. I guess Sahjhan's original deal is now gone too. Wonder if he can't remember Connor either. >:>Yeah, 'cause ME has a great track record when it comes to changing >:>metaphors in mid-series, not to mention their history of using Spike >:>with restraint. I'm all a'twitter. >: >:Fred's gonna be a magic crack ho junkie? Who knew? > >Well, according to StB Fred's got the history. Yeah, cause once you start down the road with smoking pot, you'll go directly to the hard stuff. Cigarettes and booze. >:(BTW, if there were *three* UberVamps running around, >:why didn't they just go and kill all the potentials? > >They were too polite to take on more than one at a time. It's the end >of mankind, not good manners. Oh well then, I'd hate to find UberVamps not having the proper fetchin' up. >:And where did the Ubers come from? > >They came out of the extra's locker room. Oh, but of course. How silly of me. >: And why do I expect ME >:to actually care enough to bother with solid writing anymore >:when crap is easier and gets the same ratings?) > >Hey, if you're going to write a story about a bunch of people selling >out, you need to know what you're talking about. Yeah, but if what you say above is true, then they don't think AI is selling out. Just moving on up. To the East Side. To that deluxe apartment in the sky. Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-16 11:08:23-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (gavalos@cctimes.com)


"Linda" <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com> wrote in message news:<AmYwa.786051$up3.115742@post-02.news.easynews.com>... > "George Avalos" <gavalos@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:ba0717$j5t$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > > > "Linda" <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com> wrote in > > > > > I can see no reason to bring Spike to Angel other than to piss off > viewers > > > like me. > > > > You really didn't mean to say something that dumb, right? > > Yeah, I said it. I was upset and a little drunk at the time. (Okay, a whole > lot drunk). So does that prove the notion that one really has to be drunk to appreciate Spike? Or that he's driven you to drink? ;) -George

2003-05-16 11:39:35-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (gavalos@cctimes.com)


benvarkent@aol.com (Ben Varkentine) wrote in message news:<20030515134717.17582.00000122@mb-m15.aol.com>... > >The Spike move could be brilliant or dumb as rocks. But do you *seriously* > >think they did it just to deliberately hack off a certain sector of 'Angel' > >fans? Obviously, it is being done in hopes of improving the show's ratings > >or quality or both. > > Or in fear that if they actually did what needs to be done, what the dictates > of the story have demanded for years now, and killed him, they'd lose a couple > more million viewers they can't afford to lose. These people have house > payments to make, you know. Not that the story isn't paramount in every > creative decision, god knows... Surely you're not trying to pass yourself off as being naive enough to be wooed by the siren song that the "purity" of the artistes and the desires of the audience outweigh the needs of the financiers? We should all catch a clue here: Hollywood stopped being about the needs of the talents or the audience right around the time the first studio boss cut a check for his actors, writers and directors. (OTOH, this *is* Usenet, which usually is free of the ravages of reality. News apparently travels slowly in some circles, even in this Internet age.) -George

2003-05-16 13:41:57-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


George Avalos wrote: > benvarkent@aol.com (Ben Varkentine) wrote in message news:<20030515134717.17582.00000122@mb-m15.aol.com>... >>Or in fear that if they actually did what needs to be done, what the dictates >>of the story have demanded for years now, and killed him, they'd lose a couple >>more million viewers they can't afford to lose. These people have house >>payments to make, you know. Not that the story isn't paramount in every >>creative decision, god knows... > > Surely you're not trying to pass yourself off as being naive enough to > be wooed by the siren song that the "purity" of the artistes and the > desires of the audience outweigh the needs of the financiers? > > We should all catch a clue here: Hollywood stopped being about the > needs of the talents or the audience right around the time the first > studio boss cut a check for his actors, writers and directors. Sure, producing tv shows is a business first and foremost. I think everyone understands that. There's a constant tension between the needs of the story (i.e., consistent and understandable motivations and behavior by the characters, a consistent and coherent "world" for them to inhabit, attention to backstory and 'canon' when doing new episodes, and so forth) and the needs of the production company/network (get the show in the can under budget and on time, keep the ratings up, etc.). If the producers work to a high standard re story, the viewers (many of them, anyhow) come to expect that. They expect to see stories that don't contradict earlier information--at least, not without a damn good reason. They expect the characters to remember what happened to them in previous stories. They expect the characters to behave with the same intelligence and common sense they've demonstrated (or not demonstrated) previously, barring some good reason why not. The Star Trek writers are notorious for characters who conveniently (for the writers) forget all about the world-changing tech they invented/discovered last episode and which would end the threat in this episode in two minutes. They are (rightly) mocked for that. I used to expect much better of ME--because they'd led me to expect better of them. Characters grew and changed, but in plausible ways. They remembered what had happened to them, and it influenced their behavior in later episodes. They behaved with uncommon common sense most of the time and when they didn't it was usually because of a clearly defined character trait that made their behavior understandable. Starting in S4, they tried to integrate Spike into the Scoobies despite plenty of good reasons why the Scoobies ought to have staked his ass (so to speak). And even if they had let bygones be bygones when he first got chipped, he _continued_ to be a threat to them time and time again--by choice, with his eyes wide open. They essentially gave this un-lifelong serial killer a pass despite his still being an unrepentant serial killer and his ongoing attempts to screw them over or see them killed even if he couldn't do the killing himself. It beggars the imagination to think that they'd behave this way _except_ by writers' fiat. It only got worse over the next three seasons. (The same rot infected the Angel series, where Connor remained welcome amongst the AI team despite _his_ demonstrated untrustworthiness.) It destroyed my willing suspension of disbelief. I simply could not (and cannot) believe they'd behave that way in real life; I was constantly aware that this was fiction, and badly conceived fiction at that--only an idiot plot could explain their behavior. They lost me as a Buffy viewer for this and other, related, reasons. And I'm not the only one. If this trend continues on Angel, as I fully expect it to do, they'll lose me there as well. And I won't be the only viewer who jumps ship.

2003-05-16 17:38:58+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (benvarkent@aol.com)


>Early this fall, I didn't think Angel should go on another season but I was >so >jazzed by the latter half of the season that I am glad they saved it, and I >am >one of those who sort hoped Spike had gone as far as he could go, despite my >fandom. I was actually in a similar boat--started out this year loving Angel 10, 000 times more than Buffy but was slowly disenchanted with it over the course of the season I actually bailed out for most of the Jasmine storyline, but kept one eye on things by zapping over during "West Wing" commerecials, reading reviews and recaps, and like that. Bringing Lilah back got me to watch the finale, which I enjoyed very much, and decided that on reflection yes, I did hope Angel would be renewed. And it was, and I was pleased...until I found out that one of my favorite characters (Cordy) was being replaced by one of my least-favorite (you know who). Now I'm just not sure if the strengths of the series can compensate for the dramatic weakness that I believe Spike's continued presence is/will be. I know lots of people want Spike around, but as a wiser man than I once said, sometimes it's about giving people what they *need*, not what they *want*... Ben Varkentine "Don't steal from anyone. Especially the best. Your own stuff will pale immeasurably."--Larry Gelbart Read my film, music and book reviews at http://ink19.com/ (new) & http://popmatters.com/ (archival)

2003-05-16 17:39:49+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (benvarkent@aol.com)


>--Ever consider the possibility that the couple million viewers >Spike's presence >could draw in are *right* to want to see more of him? Well, here we get into the question of are there really a couple of million (or even more than one or two) viewers of Buffy who aren't already watching Angel? I don't think so, but I imagine we'll find out next season. It's not as if >they like watching Spike for no reason. There are very good reasons. >And Joss knows it. Yes, two very good reasons. The left pec and the right pec. And I think Joss does know it. Ben Varkentine "Don't steal from anyone. Especially the best. Your own stuff will pale immeasurably."--Larry Gelbart Read my film, music and book reviews at http://ink19.com/ (new) & http://popmatters.com/ (archival)

2003-05-16 20:28:12-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - ("F. Chung" <chungy2@alum.rpi.edu.nospam>)


In article <t_GcnTRcTa5-pyKjXTWcqw@comcast.com>, gringo@yahoo.com says... > You know whats even better news? CORDY is NOT returning as a cast > regular!!!!!! After giving her worse performance ever on season 4........ > this is incredible news. Wait, does this mean CONNOR is returning? > > > YEAH! No Crody!!!

2003-05-16 20:30:22-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - ("F. Chung" <chungy2@alum.rpi.edu.nospam>)


In article <Xns9379EA8D79C9houseofusher@216.40.28.70>, lord_usher@hotmail.com says... > AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net> wrote in > news:b9ne67$klt0u$5@ID-137314.news.dfncis.de: > > > Ugh. Spike?! Can't he find something else to do? "Angel" finally > > turned the corner after a two-season funk, and they have to add that > > piece of crap character who should have been staked like in S2 of > > "Buffy"? > > I'm no great fan of Spike right now, but I think there's at least a > chance he can become an interesting character again once ME pries him > away from his chastely beloved (*gag*) Buffy. Hell, it did wonders for > Angel. > > Plus... > > (Story idea for S5 below...) > . > I think it could be very interesting if Spike shows up as an > *antagonist* figure to the newly establishment-aligned Fang Gang. How > ironic would it be if Angel Investigations is now the untrustworthy > faceless corporation, and Spike is the scrappy loner in a shitty little Why would they bring Spike compared to, say, Faith? or even Gwen?

2003-05-16 23:16:52+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 16 May 2003 03:44:05 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :In article <m768cvgvgvn6dockdvt5s5mq385ftq3ahe@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: : :>On 15 May 2003 03:59:26 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :> :>:In article <aoh5cvkm1h4vg1a1uf4e78l8h64nk8vvn8@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: :>: :>Fury and Minear confirmed last night during the Succubus thing that :>EvilCordy was done to reset Cordy's character growth. Apparently Plan :>A was to have Cordy return as a higher being, but then they decided :>they didn't like that idea, so EvilCordy was supposed to take it all :>back. Hacks. : :Well, I have no problems with them deciding that Plan A wouldn't :work. Really? Huh. I wouldn't have had a problem deciding that before they implemented it. Deciding afterwards and pulling a reset button is weak. Lame, even. A hack job, if you will. But then, when all the creative decisions are made on the basis of "wouldn't it be cool if...", expectations can't be that high, I suppose. :I do have a problem that Plan B basically sucked. Actually, M&F said Plan B was to have Cordelia return with no memories of anything after high school. (That's where the idea for StB came from.) EvilCordy was like Plan Q or something. Or "Plan 9 From Outer Space," except not as good. :>:Scott Hope was good. :> :>And for that, they decided he was gay. Do you have to be gay to be :>able to see that Buffy is really bad news? : :No, but after dating Buffy, I can understand someone :wanting to see if there's a better way. Ah. So the reason the WB put _Angel_ on after _Smallville_ is to get the homoerotic tension theme going with Angel and Spike? Now it's all clear. :Besides, we all know that Scott Hope was bi. Scott spoke Spanish as well as English? How do you know that? :>:Hearing that Greenwalt's gonna be a showrunner on another :>:show, that other hope's gotten out of town too. :> :>Yep. And on Wednesday at 9 as well. Just for the irony. I wonder if he :>needs a beautiful female sidekick for Jake. : :Kinda makes that seeing multiple seasons left in AtS not really :a reliable, or unbiased, prediction. I tend to agree with the idea that _Angel_ is at least going to have to hang on to all of _Smallville_'s audience. I also tend to agree that isn't going to happen, and I don't think the WB's going to let "But we're losing less of the audience than the other show was!" go again. At the very least, I'd bet money that it's going to end up on another night at some point this season. :And look at the bright side, if West Wing sucks next year, you :still have a choice. I'm definitely going to check Greenie's series out. It's just that, if it's on UPN, how good can it be? :>:>I'll check out any episode that has NB as a guest star, :>: :>:Seeing he now has another gig, not likely. :> :>But not impossible. : :Yeah, but why bother? Just because. I mean, why bother kow-towing to the network if it forces you to tell your story their way? Why not just be a script doctor and bitch about producers never using your scripts? :Of course, I can see an endless stream of the surviving BtVS :characters all marching onto Angel as Guest Stars. Dru's :a lock, with Spike on board. Landau has already said she's been asked to come back. :If Willow's survives, she's bound to be back. Well, Joss is in love with Willow, so yeah, she'll survive and yeah, she'll probably make more appearances than Lilah does. Definitely more than Cordelia does. :And because there is a lack of annoying adolencent :geeks on AtS, we all know who that means, and I ain't talking :Warren or Jonathan. Except Andrew is now the best character on BtVS. How friggin' sad is that? Oh, wait, you didn't mean Dawn, did you? 'Cause she'll be legal next year, right? :Besides, without Cordelia, Xander being on AtS looses a ton :of impact. I don't know that it would have had a lot of impact with Cordelia there. Neither one has spent a lot of time talking about the other. :>:Spike will never be killed off. Never. :> :>Yeah, I know. But they planned to make him the male lead on any :>spin-off, so there's hope he's only marking time on _Angel_. : :Bud, _Angel_ is marking time. And the longer BtVS is off the :air, the less likely any spinoff will happen. Eh, if UPN makes it another season, they'll buy whatever Joss is selling. Move _Jake 2.0_ over to Tuesday at 9 and make Tuesdays an 'ME and Refugee' night. :ME is probably not long for this mortal plane. Marti, Mere, Jane, one of the Drews, Rebecca, and probably Fury are all leaving. The other Drew is heading for _Angel_. No one knows what Joss is going to do. You're probably on the right track though. :Remember when you had Howard, David, and Joss together :working on a new project based on a so-so flick? : :Those were the days, my friend. We thought they'd never end... Yep. Still and all, they can never take "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" away. :>No, it wasn't. The problem was that "Provider" required the characters :>to abandon everything they'd believed in up to that point for no :>apparent reason. : :Yeah, it was kinda the proof that Joss, the man who cares about :his characters, had abandoned Angel. Well, he was concentrating on ballet at that point. : The only difference is this upcoming season is :>they've abandoned everything they'd believed in up to this point for a :>lousy reason. : :Hey, they're improving! That's true. So then there's hope that the train wreck will actually just be a 10 car pile-up? :>:No, but you can hope -- have faith -- oh hell, we're screwed. :> :>Now you're getting it. : :Yeah. Here I was arguing that certain things have to logically :come out of what they've set up, forgetting they don't give :a damn about story logic in the arcs anymore. : :I gotta see how they ignore the loss of Cordelia as the :moral compass, heart, soul, and frequently common :sense mind, of the organization. : :Cause you know they are. Yeah, Timmy said Cordelia was iconic to the show and would remain an influence on Angel's story, but if they couldn't figure out how to make HigherBeingCordy work, I doubt they can do much with NotEvenThereCordy. I can still hope that the fanfic you snipped is how the season (or series) ends though, right? :>:Would it be me if I became rational and just quit watching? Hell, :>:I even taped EoD, and discovered it was better written than Empty :>:Spaces. Which meant it only sucked. Badly. :> :>I saw most of it. Whatever. : :Hey, it actually had a couple of cute scenes, that played way too :long and took too long to set up. But cute! Yeah. Ever wonder why they set up that Anya/Andrew bonding (B-O-N-D-I-N-G) scene though? Might be an anvil, having such a scene come out of nowhere in the penultimate episode. I'm just saying. :Watching BtVS these past few seasons is why I'm likely to :watch AtS this next season, I just have trouble looking away :from the oncoming collision of two trains. I hear that. Part of me wants to watch, popcorn in hand, as ME self-destructs right there in front of me. Then the other part of me says the more they make it just like all the other crap on TV, the more the critics will praise it and the hordes will watch it, so I probably won't even get that satisfaction. :>:Next episode Joss gets to prove why he'll never be given the controls :>:of a big screen action project. :> :>No, man, the cookie dough speech will save it. : :An-ticipa-a-tion, is making me wait. No, cookie dough, not ketchup. :>Another thing Fury and Minear said was bringing Marsters over was in :>no way related to getting _Angel_ renewed. However, F&M said ME only :>wanted Spike part-time, but the suits at the WB insisted he be made a :>regular. So do the math. : :Lord knows ME can't. In very few regards. :BTW, has anyone yet fessed up to why Charisma isn't there :anymore? Not officially. :The sick part of me would love the ironic hypocrisy :of the people writing all this pro-woman power stuff actually :canning a new mom because they can't work out an easing :of her schedule. That may be a little bit of the case. :Or better yet, cause her pregnancy ruined their perfectly planned :storyline. Timmy swore they were going to go with the C/C crap even before Charisma told them she was pregnant. He said the only things that changed were Cordelia getting pregnant and the end of the season. The original intent was that Cordemon would split from Cordelia, amoeba-like I suppose. At the season's end, Cordelia was intended to be the one who killed Jasmine and save the day, but Charisma's doctor wouldn't clear her for the hours or the workload necessary for anything more than being in a coma. That said, Timmy used the phrase "our hands were tied" in context with having "this pregnant woman" to deal with more than once. It's a shame that weren't true. If their hands had been tied, some better writers may have had the chance to write this past season. But hey, since ME was very first writing staff in the history of the universe to have to deal with an actress' pregnancy, we should forgive them their distress at having to deal with "this pregnant woman". And now I'm just ranting. Again. :I'm just assuming it was a mutual termination of contract. Not :the above. I'll email you with what I've heard since there's no point in throwing it out for public consumption. As hard as it may be to believe, Charisma herself hasn't yet asked me for my advice on her career, so I have no first-hand info. :>Well, just as well. M&F claimed Angel fulfilling Sahjan's prophecy was :>always going to happen. : :Of course, Sajhjan's prophecy was supposed to be a crock. Timmy said a prophecy's a prophecy. Sahjhan may have made it up, but someone/something else may have been guiding his hand. Yeah, I don't know what that's supposed to mean either. Sahjhan is Moses now? :It was the LoaBurger's devour that was true. And it happened. :I guess Sahjhan's original deal is now gone too. Wonder if :he can't remember Connor either. According to Timmy, having "killed" Connor, ME's now trying to think of a way to get him back, at least for a few episodes. (Remember when ME killed someone and they stayed dead? Robia and Bianca must be so pissed off right now.) Anyway, I suspect that Sahjhan will be involved at some point in the upcoming season and they'll have to convince "Steven" that he and he alone can save the world. Of course, that means someone is going to have to remember who "Steven" is, so how that's going to work out is anyone's retcon. Fanfic writers, sharpen your pencils; ME needs story ideas. :>:Fred's gonna be a magic crack ho junkie? Who knew? :> :>Well, according to StB Fred's got the history. : :Yeah, cause once you start down the road with smoking :pot, you'll go directly to the hard stuff. : :Cigarettes and booze. And Twizzlers. :>:(BTW, if there were *three* UberVamps running around, :>:why didn't they just go and kill all the potentials? :> :>They were too polite to take on more than one at a time. It's the end :>of mankind, not good manners. : :Oh well then, I'd hate to find UberVamps not having the :proper fetchin' up. With Caleb there to guide them? Not likely. :>:And where did the Ubers come from? :> :>They came out of the extra's locker room. : :Oh, but of course. How silly of me. It'd help if you'd get with the program. The fault is in the viewers, not in the story. :>: And why do I expect ME :>:to actually care enough to bother with solid writing anymore :>:when crap is easier and gets the same ratings?) :> :>Hey, if you're going to write a story about a bunch of people selling :>out, you need to know what you're talking about. : : :Yeah, but if what you say above is true, then they don't think :AI is selling out. : :Just moving on up. To the East Side. To that deluxe apartment :in the sky. Sell-outs never think they're selling out. They just say it was always their idea to have Angel walking around in the sunlight, never mind they're the same people once made fun of the suits for not getting that vampires don't walk around in the sunlight. But the Spikelettes get to have Marsters hang around with no shirt, and isn't that what's truly important? Well, that and BuffyNAngle4EVAH! Terry

2003-05-17 01:38:43+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: benvarkent@aol.com (Ben Varkentine) >Date: 5/16/2003 10:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030516133858.15211.00000181@mb-m18.aol.com> > >>Early this fall, I didn't think Angel should go on another season but I was >>so >>jazzed by the latter half of the season that I am glad they saved it, and I >>am >>one of those who sort hoped Spike had gone as far as he could go, despite my >>fandom. > >I was actually in a similar boat--started out this year loving Angel 10, 000 >times more than Buffy but was slowly disenchanted with it over the course of >the season I actually bailed out for most of the Jasmine storyline, but kept >one eye on things by zapping over during "West Wing" commerecials, reading >reviews and recaps, and like that. > >Bringing Lilah back got me to watch the finale, which I enjoyed very much, >and >decided that on reflection yes, I did hope Angel would be renewed. And it >was, >and I was pleased...until I found out that one of my favorite characters >(Cordy) was being replaced by one of my >least-favorite (you know who). I don't think You Know Who replaced Herself. It's arguable he replaced Junior Himself. But I don't think anyone in their right mind would think that ditching Herself would make the series more viable. Especially when less loved characters remain on the show. >Now >I'm >just not sure if the strengths of the series can compensate for the dramatic >weakness that I believe Spike's continued presence is/will be. > > I know lots of people want Spike around, but as a wiser man than I once >said, >sometimes it's about giving people what they *need*, not what they *want*... > You think we "needed" Angel to go off the air?

2003-05-17 03:20:11+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: benvarkent@aol.com (Ben Varkentine) >Date: 5/16/2003 10:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030516133949.15211.00000182@mb-m18.aol.com> > >>--Ever consider the possibility that the couple million viewers >>Spike's presence >>could draw in are *right* to want to see more of him? > >Well, here we get into the question of are there really a couple of million >(or >even more than one or two) viewers of Buffy who aren't already watching >Angel? >I don't think so, but I imagine we'll find out next season. > > It's not as if >>they like watching Spike for no reason. There are very good reasons. >>And Joss knows it. > >Yes, two very good reasons. The left pec and the right pec. And I think >Joss >does know it. > Please don't be so clueless. James has a nice body but it's not THAT great. Nick's used to be better, and I never was a big Xander fan. You either have enormous contempt for anyone who enjoys Spike as a character or you're just being a wiseass.

2003-05-17 04:23:43+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"George Avalos" <gavalos@cctimes.com> wrote in message news:da6729e4.0305161008.43e38810@posting.google.com... > "Linda" <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com> wrote in message news:<AmYwa.786051$up3.115742@post-02.news.easynews.com>... > > "George Avalos" <gavalos@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > news:ba0717$j5t$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > > > > > "Linda" <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com> wrote in > > > > > > > I can see no reason to bring Spike to Angel other than to piss off > > viewers > > > > like me. > > > > > > You really didn't mean to say something that dumb, right? > > > > Yeah, I said it. I was upset and a little drunk at the time. (Okay, a whole > > lot drunk). > > So does that prove the notion that one really has to be drunk to > appreciate Spike? Or that he's driven you to drink? ;) Neither. Just don't go out drinking and then come back home to good news/bad news (of course, IMO). -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-17 04:35:36+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"Terry McNeal" <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:n7racv86ittm708trvpajbocvfvn1c43lr@4ax.com... > On 16 May 2003 03:44:05 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > > :In article <m768cvgvgvn6dockdvt5s5mq385ftq3ahe@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal > :<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: > : > :>On 15 May 2003 03:59:26 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > :> > :>:In article <aoh5cvkm1h4vg1a1uf4e78l8h64nk8vvn8@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal > :>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: > > :I'm just assuming it was a mutual termination of contract. Not > :the above. > > I'll email you with what I've heard since there's no point in throwing > it out for public consumption. As hard as it may be to believe, > Charisma herself hasn't yet asked me for my advice on her career, so I > have no first-hand info. There are those of us who aren't participating in this discussion but are curious. ;-) -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-17 06:35:50+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <n7racv86ittm708trvpajbocvfvn1c43lr@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >On 16 May 2003 03:44:05 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > >:In article <m768cvgvgvn6dockdvt5s5mq385ftq3ahe@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal >:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >: >:>On 15 May 2003 03:59:26 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: >:> >:>:In article <aoh5cvkm1h4vg1a1uf4e78l8h64nk8vvn8@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal >:>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >:>: >:>Fury and Minear confirmed last night during the Succubus thing that >:>EvilCordy was done to reset Cordy's character growth. Apparently Plan >:>A was to have Cordy return as a higher being, but then they decided >:>they didn't like that idea, so EvilCordy was supposed to take it all >:>back. Hacks. >: >:Well, I have no problems with them deciding that Plan A wouldn't >:work. > >Really? Huh. I wouldn't have had a problem deciding that before they >implemented it. If you are doing something and it ain't working, then continuing on a failure is just silly. That still doesn't excuse poor work afterwards, like using a reset button. Deciding afterwards and pulling a reset button is >weak. Lame, even. A hack job, if you will. But then, when all the >creative decisions are made on the basis of "wouldn't it be cool >if...", expectations can't be that high, I suppose. Their arc planning, especially the character arcs recently, do show that type of basis to them. >:I do have a problem that Plan B basically sucked. > >Actually, M&F said Plan B was to have Cordelia return with no memories >of anything after high school. (That's where the idea for StB came >from.) EvilCordy was like Plan Q or something. Or "Plan 9 From Outer >Space," except not as good. Well, I kinda liked the Cordemon idea. It was the implimentation that didn't work. >:>:Scott Hope was good. >:> >:>And for that, they decided he was gay. Do you have to be gay to be >:>able to see that Buffy is really bad news? >: >:No, but after dating Buffy, I can understand someone >:wanting to see if there's a better way. > >Ah. So the reason the WB put _Angel_ on after _Smallville_ is to get >the homoerotic tension theme going with Angel and Spike? Now it's all >clear. So maybe a crossover with Lex Luthor? Maybe a trade of a bleached blonde soulled vampire for a bald furture evil genius? >:Besides, we all know that Scott Hope was bi. > >Scott spoke Spanish as well as English? How do you know that? He live in California. Duh! >:And look at the bright side, if West Wing sucks next year, you >:still have a choice. > >I'm definitely going to check Greenie's series out. It's just that, if >it's on UPN, how good can it be? Hey, weirder things have happened. Would you ever think Fox would be third, the WB look to be a winner, and UPN admitting that they'll be just as well off and most definitely financially without BtVS? >:>:>I'll check out any episode that has NB as a guest star, >:>: >:>:Seeing he now has another gig, not likely. >:> >:>But not impossible. >: >:Yeah, but why bother? > >Just because. I mean, why bother kow-towing to the network if it >forces you to tell your story their way? Why not just be a script >doctor and bitch about producers never using your scripts? Lord Olivier: "For the money, dear boy. For the money." >:Of course, I can see an endless stream of the surviving BtVS >:characters all marching onto Angel as Guest Stars. Dru's >:a lock, with Spike on board. > >Landau has already said she's been asked to come back. Gee, that's a shock. >:If Willow's survives, she's bound to be back. > >Well, Joss is in love with Willow, so yeah, she'll survive and yeah, >she'll probably make more appearances than Lilah does. Definitely more >than Cordelia does. Again, with the shock. >:And because there is a lack of annoying adolencent >:geeks on AtS, we all know who that means, and I ain't talking >:Warren or Jonathan. > >Except Andrew is now the best character on BtVS. How friggin' sad is >that? Pretty pathetic. Yet he'd make a good addition to AtS. Or at least better than Blondie Boy. > Oh, wait, you didn't mean Dawn, did you? 'Cause she'll be legal >next year, right? Of course. That way she can make that statement about her new boyfriend "You mean there's a connection between Ben and Connor?" >:Besides, without Cordelia, Xander being on AtS looses a ton >:of impact. > >I don't know that it would have had a lot of impact with Cordelia >there. Neither one has spent a lot of time talking about the other. Hey, if the pros can have Buffy shoving her tongue down her ex BF throat, I can fanfic there would be some sparkage with Cordy and Xander. >:ME is probably not long for this mortal plane. > >Marti, Mere, Jane, one of the Drews, Rebecca, and probably Fury are >all leaving. The other Drew is heading for _Angel_. No one knows what >Joss is going to do. You're probably on the right track though. Jane's one of the best. That's a big loss. Though it's a gain for Gilmore Girls. Marti's talented, so she'll land on her feet. Mere, I'm not sure of yet. Some good, some not so. And we still don't know how much of her good stuff was hers. The rest, including Fury, isn't a great loss. >:Remember when you had Howard, David, and Joss together >:working on a new project based on a so-so flick? >: >:Those were the days, my friend. We thought they'd never end... > >Yep. Still and all, they can never take "Bewitched, Bothered, and >Bewildered" away. Nor "Passion". "Becoming". Hell, they can't take away IRYJ, though I think Alyson sometimes wishes they would. >:>No, it wasn't. The problem was that "Provider" required the characters >:>to abandon everything they'd believed in up to that point for no >:>apparent reason. >: >:Yeah, it was kinda the proof that Joss, the man who cares about >:his characters, had abandoned Angel. > >Well, he was concentrating on ballet at that point. Yep, and having seen it, liked it, but it still doesn't mean the man whose name is about all others there doesn't hold some responsibility for the whole product. Not just a couple he directs/writes. >: The only difference is this upcoming season is >:>they've abandoned everything they'd believed in up to this point for a >:>lousy reason. >: >:Hey, they're improving! > >That's true. So then there's hope that the train wreck will actually >just be a 10 car pile-up? They'll be working their way up to fender benders in no time. >:I gotta see how they ignore the loss of Cordelia as the >:moral compass, heart, soul, and frequently common >:sense mind, of the organization. >: >:Cause you know they are. > >Yeah, Timmy said Cordelia was iconic to the show and would remain an >influence on Angel's story, but if they couldn't figure out how to >make HigherBeingCordy work, I doubt they can do much with >NotEvenThereCordy. It can't be that hard when we simpletons on the net can figure that one out. >I can still hope that the fanfic you snipped is how the season (or >series) ends though, right? Hey, sure. Or have HigherBeingCordy turn them all into toads. >:>:Would it be me if I became rational and just quit watching? Hell, >:>:I even taped EoD, and discovered it was better written than Empty >:>:Spaces. Which meant it only sucked. Badly. >:> >:>I saw most of it. Whatever. >: >:Hey, it actually had a couple of cute scenes, that played way too >:long and took too long to set up. But cute! > >Yeah. Ever wonder why they set up that Anya/Andrew bonding >(B-O-N-D-I-N-G) scene though? Might be an anvil, having such a scene >come out of nowhere in the penultimate episode. I'm just saying. But I though Emma was quiting? Unless you're saying Andrew sure looks like UberVamp food to you. >:Watching BtVS these past few seasons is why I'm likely to >:watch AtS this next season, I just have trouble looking away >:from the oncoming collision of two trains. > >I hear that. Part of me wants to watch, popcorn in hand, as ME >self-destructs right there in front of me. Then the other part of me >says the more they make it just like all the other crap on TV, the >more the critics will praise it and the hordes will watch it, so I >probably won't even get that satisfaction. The siren song of crap is often its own enjoyment. >:BTW, has anyone yet fessed up to why Charisma isn't there >:anymore? > >Not officially. A hearty Hmmmm. >:The sick part of me would love the ironic hypocrisy >:of the people writing all this pro-woman power stuff actually >:canning a new mom because they can't work out an easing >:of her schedule. > >That may be a little bit of the case. Again with the Hmmmm. >:Or better yet, cause her pregnancy ruined their perfectly planned >:storyline. > >Timmy swore they were going to go with the C/C crap even before >Charisma told them she was pregnant. Why would an intelligent person admit to that? He said the only things that >changed were Cordelia getting pregnant and the end of the season. The >original intent was that Cordemon would split from Cordelia, >amoeba-like I suppose. At the season's end, Cordelia was intended to >be the one who killed Jasmine and save the day, but Charisma's doctor >wouldn't clear her for the hours or the workload necessary for >anything more than being in a coma. So how the hell were they going to dump Connor? But at least this sounds a bit better, though still not seeing Cordelia in any of the actions this season. It looked all Cordemony to me. >That said, Timmy used the phrase "our hands were tied" in context with >having "this pregnant woman" to deal with more than once. It's a shame >that weren't true. If their hands had been tied, some better writers >may have had the chance to write this past season. The sad thing is you aren't wrong. But hey, since ME >was very first writing staff in the history of the universe to have to >deal with an actress' pregnancy, we should forgive them their distress >at having to deal with "this pregnant woman". Not impressive, are they. >And now I'm just ranting. Again. Best to get it off your chest. Glad to be of service. >:I'm just assuming it was a mutual termination of contract. Not >:the above. > >I'll email you with what I've heard since there's no point in throwing >it out for public consumption. As hard as it may be to believe, >Charisma herself hasn't yet asked me for my advice on her career, so I >have no first-hand info. You have more than I. Sad that some of my lesser assumptions have any validity of truth to them. Tim never has written for BtVS, and none of his women characters, though one might argue with Lois Lane, haven't been anvilishly pro-woman power. So I see no hypocrisy there. OTOH, there's a whole group who the term "lying hypocrites" seem to fit right about now from my cheap seats view, if much of any of my negative speculation has some truth. >:I guess Sahjhan's original deal is now gone too. Wonder if >:he can't remember Connor either. > >According to Timmy, having "killed" Connor, ME's now trying to think >of a way to get him back, at least for a few episodes. (Remember when >ME killed someone and they stayed dead? Robia and Bianca must be so >pissed off right now.) Hey, fair is fair. Robia could be playing The First even now. OTOH, Bianca got screwed. > Anyway, I suspect that Sahjhan will be involved >at some point in the upcoming season and they'll have to convince >"Steven" that he and he alone can save the world. Of course, that >means someone is going to have to remember who "Steven" is, so how >that's going to work out is anyone's retcon. Fanfic writers, sharpen >your pencils; ME needs story ideas. "You mean there's a connection between Ben and Steven?" >:>:Fred's gonna be a magic crack ho junkie? Who knew? >:> >:>Well, according to StB Fred's got the history. >: >:Yeah, cause once you start down the road with smoking >:pot, you'll go directly to the hard stuff. >: >:Cigarettes and booze. > >And Twizzlers. Hey, watch it! This is a family newsgroup! And now I flash back to what Mimi did with them on a episode of Drew Carey. Ewwww. >:>:And where did the Ubers come from? >:> >:>They came out of the extra's locker room. >: >:Oh, but of course. How silly of me. > >It'd help if you'd get with the program. The fault is in the viewers, >not in the story. Yeah, we refuse to see the obvious greatness there. It's all our fault. >:>: And why do I expect ME >:>:to actually care enough to bother with solid writing anymore >:>:when crap is easier and gets the same ratings?) >:> >:>Hey, if you're going to write a story about a bunch of people selling >:>out, you need to know what you're talking about. >: >: >:Yeah, but if what you say above is true, then they don't think >:AI is selling out. > >Sell-outs never think they're selling out. They just say it was always >their idea to have Angel walking around in the sunlight, never mind >they're the same people once made fun of the suits for not getting >that vampires don't walk around in the sunlight. But the Spikelettes >get to have Marsters hang around with no shirt, and isn't that what's >truly important? Well, that and BuffyNAngle4EVAH! Remember back in the days of greatness, when they took what was the unpopular route because it was the better storyline? So you love Buffy and Angel? Want them to get together? OK. What? You want Angel's soul restored? No problemo. Instead we get Cordy/Connor as their idea of giving the viewers what they need instead of what they want, when nobody needed or wanted such stupidity. And now I'm ranting. Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-17 13:22:42+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (benvarkent@aol.com)


>as a wiser man than I once >>said, >>sometimes it's about giving people what they *need*, not what they *want*... >> > >You think we "needed" Angel to go off the air? I think we don't need to see it go the way Buffy did. Ben Varkentine "Don't steal from anyone. Especially the best. Your own stuff will pale immeasurably."--Larry Gelbart Read my film, music and book reviews at http://ink19.com/ (new) & http://popmatters.com/ (archival)

2003-05-17 13:27:04+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (benvarkent@aol.com)


>Please don't be so clueless. James has a nice body but it's not THAT great. >Nick's used to be better, and I never was a big Xander fan. > >You either have enormous contempt for anyone who enjoys Spike as a character >or >you're just being a wiseass. Or I just think James' sexual magnetism has more to do with it than many of you will admit. But I too used to enjoy Spike as a character. Now I think he's outlived his usefulness from a dramatic standpoint and is being kept around soley to placate his fans, to the detriement of the series. Have I been less than clear on this? Ben Varkentine "Don't steal from anyone. Especially the best. Your own stuff will pale immeasurably."--Larry Gelbart Read my film, music and book reviews at http://ink19.com/ (new) & http://popmatters.com/ (archival)

2003-05-17 13:34:41+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (benvarkent@aol.com)


>> Surely you're not trying to pass yourself off as being naive enough to >> be wooed by the siren song that the "purity" of the artistes and the >> desires of the audience outweigh the needs of the financiers? No, that was just a bitter, thinly veiled comment on the argument I heard time and again from ME writers and "zombies" that Tara had to die because the dictates of the story demanded it and damnnit, the story is God. It was my way of trying to underline the idea that if that were true, Spike would have gone stakey stakey years ago. But it's okay to keep around the hunky serial killer and attempted rapist, just not the etc etc etc you see where I'm going with this. Ben Varkentine "Don't steal from anyone. Especially the best. Your own stuff will pale immeasurably."--Larry Gelbart Read my film, music and book reviews at http://ink19.com/ (new) & http://popmatters.com/ (archival)

2003-05-17 21:04:00+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: benvarkent@aol.com (Ben Varkentine) >Date: 5/17/2003 6:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030517092704.15389.00000145@mb-m06.aol.com> > >>Please don't be so clueless. James has a nice body but it's not THAT great. > >>Nick's used to be better, and I never was a big Xander fan. >> >>You either have enormous contempt for anyone who enjoys Spike as a character >>or >>you're just being a wiseass. > >Or I just think James' sexual magnetism has more to do with it than many of >you >will admit. > Sexual magnetism, yes. Pecs, no. Still, what I maintain that people such as yourself either don't see or don't admit is how many people identify with Spike, as opposed to merely want to boink him. Your theory held more water before Fool for Love aired. It was after Fool for Love that people became emotionally invested in the character.

2003-05-17 21:04:53+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: benvarkent@aol.com (Ben Varkentine) >Date: 5/17/2003 6:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030517092242.15389.00000144@mb-m06.aol.com> > >>as a wiser man than I once >>>said, >>>sometimes it's about giving people what they *need*, not what they >*want*... >>> >> >>You think we "needed" Angel to go off the air? > >I think we don't need to see it go the way Buffy did. > God knows I agree with that.

2003-05-17 21:07:58+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! >From: benvarkent@aol.com (Ben Varkentine) >Date: 5/17/2003 6:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030517093441.15389.00000146@mb-m06.aol.com> > >>> Surely you're not trying to pass yourself off as being naive enough to >>> be wooed by the siren song that the "purity" of the artistes and the >>> desires of the audience outweigh the needs of the financiers? > >No, that was just a bitter, thinly veiled comment on the argument I heard >time >and again from ME writers and "zombies" that Tara had to die because the >dictates of the story demanded it and damnnit, the story is God. It was my >way >of trying to underline the idea that if that were true, Spike would have gone >stakey stakey years ago. But it's okay to keep around the hunky serial >killer >and attempted rapist, just not the etc etc etc you see where I'm going with >this. > Well, the story also demanded that Angel get the stakey stakey after he slaughtered Jenny Calender's uncle. But it was important to keep around the hunky serial killer, successful rapist, and torturer of Giles as well as stalker of Buffy and killer of her personal acquaintances...so he could get his own spinoff. The fans really suck, don't they? =)

2003-05-17 23:17:03-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (himiko@animail.net)


Ian Merrithew <optimus2861@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:<Xns937EE3A99A26Dianmerrithewieeeorg@198.164.200.20>... > fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in > news:20030517170400.18456.00000165@mb-m05.aol.com: > > > Still, what I maintain that people such as yourself either don't see > > or don't admit is how many people identify with Spike, as opposed to > > merely want to boink him. > > People who *identify* with an unrepentant serial killer, obsessive > stalker, and would-be rapist, motivated primarily by self-interest? > > Sure you don't want to rephrase that? Yeah. Make that: "People who *identify* with an unrepentant serial killer, obsessive stalker, and would-be rapist, motivated primarily by self-interest who understand the use of metaphor and the nature of truth in fiction." himiko

2003-05-17 23:20:22-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Sun, 18 May 2003 01:22:22 GMT, Ian Merrithew <optimus2861@my-deja.com> wrote: >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in >news:20030517170400.18456.00000165@mb-m05.aol.com: > >> Still, what I maintain that people such as yourself either don't see >> or don't admit is how many people identify with Spike, as opposed to >> merely want to boink him. > >People who *identify* with an unrepentant serial killer, obsessive >stalker, and would-be rapist, motivated primarily by self-interest? > >Sure you don't want to rephrase that? They tend to ignore all those trivals when they do the identifying thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-05-18 01:22:22+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Ian Merrithew <optimus2861@my-deja.com>)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in news:20030517170400.18456.00000165@mb-m05.aol.com: > Still, what I maintain that people such as yourself either don't see > or don't admit is how many people identify with Spike, as opposed to > merely want to boink him. People who *identify* with an unrepentant serial killer, obsessive stalker, and would-be rapist, motivated primarily by self-interest? Sure you don't want to rephrase that? -- Ian Merrithew - ADM Systems Engineering ian.merrithew "at" ieee.org

2003-05-18 11:12:19-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - ("Sandra S." <75211>, 522@compuserve.com)


"Ben Varkentine" <benvarkent@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030516133858.15211.00000181@mb-m18.aol.com... > I know lots of people want Spike around, but as a wiser man than I once said, > sometimes it's about giving people what they *need*, not what they *want*... > > > Ben Varkentine > But as that man may have discovered later, if you persist in denying people what they *want*....why, they may decide that they don't want you! Sandra

2003-05-18 11:16:53-04:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - ("Sandra S." <75211>, 522@compuserve.com)


"Ian Merrithew" <optimus2861@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:Xns937EE3A99A26Dianmerrithewieeeorg@198.164.200.20... > fylmfan@aol.comspam > People who *identify* with an unrepentant serial killer, obsessive > stalker, and would-be rapist, motivated primarily by self-interest? > > Sure you don't want to rephrase that? > > -- > Ian Merrithew - ADM Systems Engineering > ian.merrithew "at" ieee.org Believe it or not, lots of people still do identify with Angel, despite the evil actions committed by the soulless Angelus! Uh, wait...you WERE talking about Angel, right? Sandra

2003-05-18 14:25:07-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>, on or about Sun, 18 May 2003 15:14:56 GMT, did you or did you not state: >On 17 May 2003 06:35:50 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: >:Jane's one of the best. That's a big loss. Though it's a gain >:for Gilmore Girls. > >Yeah. I just hope they keep her around when the GG spin-off crashes >and burns, 'cause it's going to if the writing for it is as bad as the >sort-of pilot in the last episode suggests. And if they don't get rid >of Sherilyn Fenn. Hey, I thought Sherilyn Fenn's was the only worthwhile character in that pseudo-pilot. I sure as hell don't give a damn about Jess, or his dad. She sure seemed to be smarter than either of those two (though given that she's hung around with that loser for years apparently, maybe not). >:>I hear that. Part of me wants to watch, popcorn in hand, as ME >:>self-destructs right there in front of me. Then the other part of me >:>says the more they make it just like all the other crap on TV, the >:>more the critics will praise it and the hordes will watch it, so I >:>probably won't even get that satisfaction. >: >:The siren song of crap is often its own enjoyment. Well, I stopped watching Buffy--but I'll tape the finale. And for exactly that reason: I want to witness the train wreck firsthand. >:Yeah, we refuse to see the obvious greatness there. It's >:all our fault. > >Trust in Joss. Can you believe there are still people who believe >that? I can believe it. I see it in these newsgroups on a regular basis. It's really sad. -- "It will let you do things nobody else can do, see things nobody else can see." "_Real_ things?" --Egg Shen and Jack Burton

2003-05-18 15:14:56+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 17 May 2003 06:35:50 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :In article <n7racv86ittm708trvpajbocvfvn1c43lr@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: : :>On 16 May 2003 03:44:05 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :> :>:In article <m768cvgvgvn6dockdvt5s5mq385ftq3ahe@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: :>: :>:>On 15 May 2003 03:59:26 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :>:> :>:Well, I have no problems with them deciding that Plan A wouldn't :>:work. :> :>Really? Huh. I wouldn't have had a problem deciding that before they :>implemented it. : :If you are doing something and it ain't working, then continuing :on a failure is just silly. That still doesn't excuse poor work :afterwards, like using a reset button. I think my point is they never *tried* to do anything with it. It was 'Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Cordelia was ascending to heeeaaavvveeennn while Angel was descending to the ocean floor'. No one said, 'Yeah, that'd be cool. Then what?' And then when they did decide they didn't know where to go next, it was 'wouldn't it be cool if Cordy was evil'. Meanwhile, they overlooked the easy and logical answer to the problem. Even more unbelievably, they wrote and filmed that answer and still never saw it. All attention was focused on how cool EvilCordy will be. Of course, they then spend half the season pretending Cordy wasn't evil, but never mind. It was cool. The irony now being that at this point they may as well go on with the idea of HBCordy. Shipping Cordy off to Higher Being Land would be a good way to have the character depart without needing to look like a bunch of hacks. Yet again, Charisma pulls ME's ass out of the fire and makes them look better than they are. :Well, I kinda liked the Cordemon idea. It was the implimentation :that didn't work. Not so much, though I don't think I had as much of a problem with it as most did. At least, not until this season. :>Ah. So the reason the WB put _Angel_ on after _Smallville_ is to get :>the homoerotic tension theme going with Angel and Spike? Now it's all :>clear. : :So maybe a crossover with Lex Luthor? Maybe a trade of a :bleached blonde soulled vampire for a bald furture evil genius? Would that be better? I haven't seen _Smallville_ since the end of act one of the pilot ep. :He live in California. Duh! So it's a residential requirement? :>I'm definitely going to check Greenie's series out. It's just that, if :>it's on UPN, how good can it be? : :Hey, weirder things have happened. Would you ever think :Fox would be third, the WB look to be a winner, and UPN :admitting that they'll be just as well off and most definitely :financially without BtVS? I would never have thought that seven years later, the only actor from WTTH still on TV would be Boreanaz. :>Except Andrew is now the best character on BtVS. How friggin' sad is :>that? : :Pretty pathetic. Yet he'd make a good addition to AtS. I do appreciate the actor's ability. He could show up just to irritate Spikey-poo. That'd be okay. Irritating him with a pointy stick would be even better. Not to mention the some poetic justice in the comic relief staking Spike. :Or at least better than Blondie Boy. Eh, you're stuck with him. :> Oh, wait, you didn't mean Dawn, did you? 'Cause she'll be legal :>next year, right? : :Of course. That way she can make that statement about :her new boyfriend "You mean there's a connection between :Ben and Connor?" Who's Connor? :>I don't know that it would have had a lot of impact with Cordelia :>there. Neither one has spent a lot of time talking about the other. : :Hey, if the pros can have Buffy shoving her tongue down her :ex BF throat, Just because the pros are writers of bad fanfic doesn't give you license to be a writer of bad fanfics. OTOH, as I'm just a lousy writer, I can write whatever I want. :I can fanfic there would be some sparkage with :Cordy and Xander. That day is past, I believe. But hearing that NB's pilot wasn't picked up, maybe they can have Xander be the one who drives Andrew to L.A. so Andrew can irritate Spike with that pointy stick. :>Marti, Mere, Jane, one of the Drews, Rebecca, and probably Fury are :>all leaving. The other Drew is heading for _Angel_. No one knows what :>Joss is going to do. You're probably on the right track though. : :Jane's one of the best. That's a big loss. Though it's a gain :for Gilmore Girls. Yeah. I just hope they keep her around when the GG spin-off crashes and burns, 'cause it's going to if the writing for it is as bad as the sort-of pilot in the last episode suggests. And if they don't get rid of Sherilyn Fenn. :Marti's talented, so she'll land on her feet. I thought she had a exec job lined up already? :Mere, I'm not sure of yet. Some good, some not so. And we :still don't know how much of her good stuff was hers. The :rest, including Fury, isn't a great loss. Yeah, Fury's past his prime in this arena. I'd watch something else he wrote though, just to see if a new subject brings fresh ideas. But I think Mere will do okay. Probably better on the production side, from what I've gathered. Oh, I forgot Petrie, probably because he hasn't given any interviews in which he said something monumentally stupid so he never felt like a real ME writer. Anyway, he's off to do movies. :Nor "Passion". "Becoming". Hell, they can't take away IRYJ, :though I think Alyson sometimes wishes they would. I'd be cool with them taking IRYJ away myself. :>:Yeah, it was kinda the proof that Joss, the man who cares about :>:his characters, had abandoned Angel. :> :>Well, he was concentrating on ballet at that point. : :Yep, and having seen it, liked it, but it still doesn't mean :the man whose name is about all others there doesn't hold :some responsibility for the whole product. Not just a couple :he directs/writes. True, but you know, he was probably also thinking about spaceships, space cowboys, and space hookers, so he had a lot of space in his head at the time. :>:Hey, they're improving! :> :>That's true. So then there's hope that the train wreck will actually :>just be a 10 car pile-up? : :They'll be working their way up to fender benders in no time. Ah, the glory days. If _Angel_ gets past November sweeps anyway. :>Yeah, Timmy said Cordelia was iconic to the show and would remain an :>influence on Angel's story, but if they couldn't figure out how to :>make HigherBeingCordy work, I doubt they can do much with :>NotEvenThereCordy. : :It can't be that hard when we simpletons on the net can figure :that one out. It's become increasingly clear to even one as slow on the uptake as I that we are much smarter than they are. Heck, check out all the fanwanking we've done that was incorporated into last season. :>I can still hope that the fanfic you snipped is how the season (or :>series) ends though, right? : :Hey, sure. Or have HigherBeingCordy turn them all into toads. Rats. :Unless you're saying Andrew sure looks like UberVamp :food to you. I'm just saying anyone betting on both of them to live through the season may as well write off their money right now. :>I hear that. Part of me wants to watch, popcorn in hand, as ME :>self-destructs right there in front of me. Then the other part of me :>says the more they make it just like all the other crap on TV, the :>more the critics will praise it and the hordes will watch it, so I :>probably won't even get that satisfaction. : :The siren song of crap is often its own enjoyment. Thus the success of MST's 2 and 3K. But watching _Angel_ being written to satisfy the dictates of the network and a few fans is just too sad for me. :>:BTW, has anyone yet fessed up to why Charisma isn't there :>:anymore? :> :>Not officially. : :A hearty Hmmmm. Yeah. ME and ASH both announced their new deal soon after the season ender. Or you could look at it like they're still talking, so there's no deal to talk about. And then we can all go skipping through the fields chasing leprechauns. :>Timmy swore they were going to go with the C/C crap even before :>Charisma told them she was pregnant. : :Why would an intelligent person admit to that? I believe your answer is in your question. :So how the hell were they going to dump Connor? Same way, I suppose. It's not like the kid ever had a solid grasp on reality. Or the intelligence of a gnat. :But at least this sounds a bit better, though still not seeing :Cordelia in any of the actions this season. It looked all :Cordemony to me. Oh, yeah. Another thing they confirmed. Angel's version of what happened (a thing pretending to be Cordelia) is what we were seeing. Never Cordelia. So, you know, "neener" to the weirdos who thought that was Cordelia in "Spin the Bottle." :>That said, Timmy used the phrase "our hands were tied" in context with :>having "this pregnant woman" to deal with more than once. It's a shame :>that weren't true. If their hands had been tied, some better writers :>may have had the chance to write this past season. : :The sad thing is you aren't wrong. No matter how much I wish I was. : But hey, since ME :>was very first writing staff in the history of the universe to have to :>deal with an actress' pregnancy, we should forgive them their distress :>at having to deal with "this pregnant woman". : :Not impressive, are they. Well, whatever. Charisma did say _Angel_ was a boy's club way back in season one. I guess nothing's changed. :>And now I'm just ranting. Again. : :Best to get it off your chest. Glad to be of service. Well, thanks. :OTOH, there's a whole group who the term "lying hypocrites" :seem to fit right about now from my cheap seats view, if much :of any of my negative speculation has some truth. It's not entirely inaccurate. It's not like they won't bend over backward to get SMG and Hannigan on the show, but no one's buying CordyNAngle4Evah! lunchboxes, so... :>According to Timmy, having "killed" Connor, ME's now trying to think :>of a way to get him back, at least for a few episodes. (Remember when :>ME killed someone and they stayed dead? Robia and Bianca must be so :>pissed off right now.) : :Hey, fair is fair. Robia could be playing The First even now. What have you head? :OTOH, Bianca got screwed. Yeah, but Bianca could have been Cordelia. Oh, wait, now I see your point. :"You mean there's a connection between Ben and Steven?" Who's Steven? :>And Twizzlers. : :Hey, watch it! This is a family newsgroup! : :And now I flash back to what Mimi did with them :on a episode of Drew Carey. Ewwww. I so don't want to know. :>It'd help if you'd get with the program. The fault is in the viewers, :>not in the story. : :Yeah, we refuse to see the obvious greatness there. It's :all our fault. Trust in Joss. Can you believe there are still people who believe that? :Remember back in the days of greatness, when they took what :was the unpopular route because it was the better storyline? :So you love Buffy and Angel? Want them to get together? :OK. What? You want Angel's soul restored? No problemo. : :Instead we get Cordy/Connor as their idea of giving the viewers :what they need instead of what they want, when nobody needed :or wanted such stupidity. : :And now I'm ranting. One good turn deserves another. Or no good deed goes unpunished. I can never remember which is applicable when swapping rants. Terry

2003-05-18 15:56:30+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"Terry McNeal" <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:197fcvkilkmkj4vimpamsuvb392pgflvm6@4ax.com... > On 17 May 2003 06:35:50 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > > :In article <n7racv86ittm708trvpajbocvfvn1c43lr@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal > :<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: > : > :>On 16 May 2003 03:44:05 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > :> > :>:In article <m768cvgvgvn6dockdvt5s5mq385ftq3ahe@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal > :>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: > :>: > :>:>On 15 May 2003 03:59:26 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > > :>Ah. So the reason the WB put _Angel_ on after _Smallville_ is to get > :>the homoerotic tension theme going with Angel and Spike? Now it's all > :>clear. > : > :So maybe a crossover with Lex Luthor? Maybe a trade of a > :bleached blonde soulled vampire for a bald furture evil genius? > > Would that be better? I haven't seen _Smallville_ since the end of act > one of the pilot ep. I watched five minutes of it, rewound the tape and taped something else over it. > > I would never have thought that seven years later, the only actor from > WTTH still on TV would be Boreanaz. I wasn't around back then but I'll bet they were posting about how wooden and one tone he acted. Things sure have changed - not. Of course, I for one am glad he survived. Hmmm.....Angel. and all that. > : > :Yep, and having seen it, liked it, but it still doesn't mean > :the man whose name is about all others there doesn't hold > :some responsibility for the whole product. Not just a couple > :he directs/writes. Wooo, Whoooo. Stephen's seen WitW finally. So has he seen StB yet? > :The siren song of crap is often its own enjoyment. > > Thus the success of MST's 2 and 3K. But watching _Angel_ being written > to satisfy the dictates of the network and a few fans is just too sad > for me. I just said this to Rose in another post but you said it so much better. -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-18 17:10:09+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On Sun, 18 May 2003 15:56:30 GMT, "Linda" <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com> wrote: :"Terry McNeal" <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in message :news:197fcvkilkmkj4vimpamsuvb392pgflvm6@4ax.com... :> I would never have thought that seven years later, the only actor from :> WTTH still on TV would be Boreanaz. : :I wasn't around back then but I'll bet they were posting about how wooden :and one tone he acted. Things sure have changed - not. : :Of course, I for one am glad he survived. Hmmm.....Angel. and all that. I wasn't reading newsgroups at the time either, but if people were saying that then, they were right. (I can tell you it was a hot-button topic when _Angel_ was announced as a spin-off.) He had one expression he used for every occasion and delivered his lines like he was reading them from a script. (Hey!) While I'm not one to agree that DB's one of the top ten actors on television, or on Wednesday nights, or even in the top three on _Angel_, I do agree he has improved dramatically. Still, there's a great deal of irony in the current situation compared to days of yore. Terry

2003-05-18 17:13:02+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (benvarkent@aol.com)


>Believe it or not, lots of people still do identify with Angel, despite the >evil actions committed by the soulless Angelus! > >Uh, wait...you WERE talking about Angel, right? No, but maybe we should be. Because another part of the general problem with Spike (and specifically with making him a regular on ANGEL) is this: In their flailing attempts to justify Spike's continued existence in "The Scooby Gang", ME have lessened Angel, repeated themselves, and raised story threads they apparently have no intention of investigating. You can see the story confrences... "Why the hell is Spike still around? "Um...he's in love with Buffy!" "A vampire in love with the slayer? Didn't we tell that story?" "Naw, this'll be better. He'll take her from behind by force at the Bronze. The kids'll love it." Later: "Ok, we reminded people that Spike is (no, he really and truly is) a bad, bad vampire, and not the helpless, lovable puppy we've been writing him as all season. Only trouble is, we still need to keep him around and we just had him attempt to rape our titular heroine. Ideas?" "Deal with the possibility that a vampire denied the ability to feed and exposed to good people on a daily (well, nightly) basis might evidence a change in behavorial patterns?" "Nah, take too long. Let's just give him a soul." "What? But that takes away Angel's uniquness, an aspect which we've been beating into the ground for six years on two series. Besides, even if we did give Spike a soul, won't that necessiate really dealing with what that means and how it affects him differently than it did Angel?" "Nah. Two simple phrases we can have Buffy utter at every turn will take care of that for us. 'It's different. He has a sooooul now." "Brilliant! Genius! Now tell me more about this can't-miss Firefly idea..." Ben Varkentine "Don't steal from anyone. Especially the best. Your own stuff will pale immeasurably."--Larry Gelbart Read my film, music and book reviews at http://ink19.com/ (new) & http://popmatters.com/ (archival)

2003-05-18 17:30:20+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (benvarkent@aol.com)


>But it was important to keep around the >hunky serial killer, successful rapist, and torturer of Giles as well as >stalker of Buffy and killer of her personal acquaintances...so he could get >his >own spinoff. The fans really suck, don't they? =) That whole "At least three months earth time spent in Hell, which is God knows how long in "Hell time" is what you're forgetting there. Not to mention the years we know Angel spent "underground" dealing with his newfound conscience. Wheras Spike seems to have shaken it off like a bad sinus infection. Angel (like Faith) has done some paying for his crimes, wheras Spikey gets the reward of a soul and getting to watch Buffy's...back. He gets to return to eating people with the convienient excuse of the First to blame when its discovered (talk about having your cake...). He gets the chip out with apparently only Giles concerned. And if you're thinking of mentioning Willow, I'll still hold that killing the man who shot your girlfriend and killing and eating dozens of nameless strangers aren't that compatible. And that, if you really think Willow hasn't been punished, you haven't been paying attention to Kennedy. Ben Varkentine "Don't steal from anyone. Especially the best. Your own stuff will pale immeasurably."--Larry Gelbart Read my film, music and book reviews at http://ink19.com/ (new) & http://popmatters.com/ (archival)

2003-05-19 01:22:56+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On Sun, 18 May 2003 14:25:07 -0700, Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com> wrote: :Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>, on or about Sun, 18 :May 2003 15:14:56 GMT, did you or did you not state: : :>Yeah. I just hope they keep her around when the GG spin-off crashes :>and burns, 'cause it's going to if the writing for it is as bad as the :>sort-of pilot in the last episode suggests. And if they don't get rid :>of Sherilyn Fenn. : :Hey, I thought Sherilyn Fenn's was the only worthwhile character in :that pseudo-pilot. I sure as hell don't give a damn about Jess, or :his dad. She sure seemed to be smarter than either of those two :(though given that she's hung around with that loser for years :apparently, maybe not). Oh, she was fine except she seems to have problems with the rapid-fire dialog concept. But I agree that tuning in every week to watch Jess and What's His Name yelling at each other holds no interest for me either. Terry

2003-05-19 03:12:33+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <197fcvkilkmkj4vimpamsuvb392pgflvm6@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >On 17 May 2003 06:35:50 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > >:In article <n7racv86ittm708trvpajbocvfvn1c43lr@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal >:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >: >:>On 16 May 2003 03:44:05 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: >:> >:>:In article <m768cvgvgvn6dockdvt5s5mq385ftq3ahe@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal >:>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >:>: >:>:>On 15 May 2003 03:59:26 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: >:>:> >:>:Well, I have no problems with them deciding that Plan A wouldn't >:>:work. >:> >:>Really? Huh. I wouldn't have had a problem deciding that before they >:>implemented it. >: >:If you are doing something and it ain't working, then continuing >:on a failure is just silly. That still doesn't excuse poor work >:afterwards, like using a reset button. > >I think my point is they never *tried* to do anything with it. It was >'Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Cordelia was ascending to >heeeaaavvveeennn while Angel was descending to the ocean floor'. No >one said, 'Yeah, that'd be cool. Then what?' Well, DG probably had an arc plan . But that plan didn't work for the new guys. Or it didn't work with Charisma's condition. Or it just plain didn't work and he wasn't around to fix it. The thing is if a planned arc isn't working, maybe you need to ask yourself if an arc is even needed. >The irony now being that at this point they may as well go on with the >idea of HBCordy. Shipping Cordy off to Higher Being Land would be a >good way to have the character depart without needing to look like a >bunch of hacks. Yet again, Charisma pulls ME's ass out of the fire and >makes them look better than they are. It's the only one that makes any sense now. >:>Ah. So the reason the WB put _Angel_ on after _Smallville_ is to get >:>the homoerotic tension theme going with Angel and Spike? Now it's all >:>clear. >: >:So maybe a crossover with Lex Luthor? Maybe a trade of a >:bleached blonde soulled vampire for a bald furture evil genius? > >Would that be better? I haven't seen _Smallville_ since the end of act >one of the pilot ep. He's a better actor than JM. He's a better character than Spike. >:He live in California. Duh! > >So it's a residential requirement? I gather at times it seems that way. >:>I'm definitely going to check Greenie's series out. It's just that, if >:>it's on UPN, how good can it be? >: >:Hey, weirder things have happened. Would you ever think >:Fox would be third, the WB look to be a winner, and UPN >:admitting that they'll be just as well off and most definitely >:financially without BtVS? > >I would never have thought that seven years later, the only actor from >WTTH still on TV would be Boreanaz. Actually, the way TV works, I would. No, correction, that anyone would still be working after seven years from a program's initial run is amazing. Still 80% unemployment IIRC. >:>Except Andrew is now the best character on BtVS. How friggin' sad is >:>that? >: >:Pretty pathetic. Yet he'd make a good addition to AtS. > >I do appreciate the actor's ability. He could show up just to irritate >Spikey-poo. That'd be okay. Irritating him with a pointy stick would >be even better. Not to mention the some poetic justice in the comic >relief staking Spike. And he does need to fight for redemption, though I'm doubting Angel would rate his fight too highly. >:> Oh, wait, you didn't mean Dawn, did you? 'Cause she'll be legal >:>next year, right? >: >:Of course. That way she can make that statement about >:her new boyfriend "You mean there's a connection between >:Ben and Connor?" > >Who's Connor? A two year old. >:>I don't know that it would have had a lot of impact with Cordelia >:>there. Neither one has spent a lot of time talking about the other. >: >:Hey, if the pros can have Buffy shoving her tongue down her >:ex BF throat, > >Just because the pros are writers of bad fanfic doesn't give you >license to be a writer of bad fanfics. OTOH, as I'm just a lousy >writer, I can write whatever I want. Same here. Hey, speaking of fanfic, here's a little one for next season: Angel and Fred are talking. Seems Fred has started an outside group program researching supersymmetry in multi-dimensional superstring theory, as a continuation of her successful paper. She's vital to the work, cause it's really all her baby. Since it's taking all her free time away, she broached working for W&H on a consulting basis instead of as a full time employee. Knox got this same deal six months earlier to work on all of his "babies". Got paid more per day consulting back than he did as an employee, with a much more flexible work schedule. Angel's in full agreement, but will have to run it by the numbers people. It shouldn't be a problem, cause they're handling it like a business should. Meanwhile, a meeting of the top producers of W&H begins. A demon with green shaded eyes, somewhat like the Ice Warriors in Doctor Who, announces that because of the new leadership, W&H's lack of evil has caused a decline in their LA market share and their ratings by Hubblefield is lower too. As such, all bonuses are cut and their pays shall be reduced, hard times as it were. Grumbling ensues. Typical Big Bad case comes up. All fight the good fight, but not good enough to win. Fortunately Spike shows up to save the day. Angel makes an executive decision that Spike should be a part time employee. The green shaded eyes demon says the Senior partners insist that Spike be a full time employee, so as not to lose him to some evil group. Angel finally concurs. In an AI group meeting, Angel announces that Spike's now a full time employee. There is great rejoicing. Fred asks about her new deal. Angel defers to the green shaded eyes demon, who informs Fred that they'll accept her deal, but with her earning far less per day that she did as an employee. Fred's outraged, but even moreso when the demon explains how expenses have gone up with revenues down. Seems getting Wes full time was expensive since he left his own firm to join. Gunn was due a pay increase and the signing of Spike was very expensive, especially since it meant that Angel's salary had to be increase otherwise Spike would have been making more than Angel. And you can't have an underling earning more than the big guy. The demon also reminds them of their attempt at creating a new group to fight evil using high tech gears with a Western style had blown up bigtime, costing W&H a ton. Angel reminds everyone they all thought it was a good idea. One thing leads to another and Fred quits on the spot. We see the guys bonding, drinking blood and booze respectively while watching a Pro Wrestling PPV on Angel's TV. All agree it's a shame about Fred, as they scratch their balls. (Or maybe have some underlings scratch it for them.) But hey, they're running things like a business. They toast their successful business. The demon is watching them on a close circuit TV. Laughing at the fools. He's also watching all the lead producers gathering up their files and leaving, along with Fred grabbing her stuff. He pauses at Fred's as he sees her looking as some bills she has for her expensive new car, expensive new apartment, multiple credit card, and her proposal for her "baby", all very expensive. After a brief worried look, she shoves them all into her personal box and marchs off. The demon laughs about how he's succeeding in destorying AI. They'll be out of business within the year. He then turn his attention back to his desk, as he counts the number of magic beans he's collected. <MST3000>So what do you think, sirs?</MST3000> >:I can fanfic there would be some sparkage with >:Cordy and Xander. > >That day is past, I believe. But hearing that NB's pilot wasn't picked >up, maybe they can have Xander be the one who drives Andrew to L.A. so >Andrew can irritate Spike with that pointy stick. Works for me. >:>Marti, Mere, Jane, one of the Drews, Rebecca, and probably Fury are >:>all leaving. The other Drew is heading for _Angel_. No one knows what >:>Joss is going to do. You're probably on the right track though. >: >:Jane's one of the best. That's a big loss. Though it's a gain >:for Gilmore Girls. > >Yeah. I just hope they keep her around when the GG spin-off crashes >and burns, 'cause it's going to if the writing for it is as bad as the >sort-of pilot in the last episode suggests. And if they don't get rid >of Sherilyn Fenn. OK, but does she still do the tongue thing with the cherry stem? >:Marti's talented, so she'll land on her feet. > >I thought she had a exec job lined up already? I don't remember if she had one or not, but with her work experience, not seeing it as being a problem finding one. >:Mere, I'm not sure of yet. Some good, some not so. And we >:still don't know how much of her good stuff was hers. The >:rest, including Fury, isn't a great loss. > >Yeah, Fury's past his prime in this arena. I'd watch something else he >wrote though, just to see if a new subject brings fresh ideas. But I >think Mere will do okay. Probably better on the production side, from >what I've gathered. Best of luck to her. >Oh, I forgot Petrie, probably because he hasn't given any interviews >in which he said something monumentally stupid so he never felt like a >real ME writer. Anyway, he's off to do movies. Best of luck to him. I thought that happened last year though. >:Nor "Passion". "Becoming". Hell, they can't take away IRYJ, >:though I think Alyson sometimes wishes they would. > >I'd be cool with them taking IRYJ away myself. Yeah, but you didn't win an award for the actor whose performance most looked like a mannequin on the net. Not a performance that AH probably wants as her Emmy entry, I'd guess. But it had Jenny Calendar in it, so it was worthwhile if just for that. >:>:Yeah, it was kinda the proof that Joss, the man who cares about >:>:his characters, had abandoned Angel. >:> >:>Well, he was concentrating on ballet at that point. >: >:Yep, and having seen it, liked it, but it still doesn't mean >:the man whose name is about all others there doesn't hold >:some responsibility for the whole product. Not just a couple >:he directs/writes. > >True, but you know, he was probably also thinking about spaceships, >space cowboys, and space hookers, so he had a lot of space in his head >at the time. But ultimately who had to approve the hiring of the guy they canned just a few weeks into the season? Oh wait, that's our fault. >:>:Hey, they're improving! >:> >:>That's true. So then there's hope that the train wreck will actually >:>just be a 10 car pile-up? >: >:They'll be working their way up to fender benders in no time. > >Ah, the glory days. If _Angel_ gets past November sweeps anyway. I'm not sure the WB has a mid-season replacement lined up yet. Then again, how much support does the WB have for a program they refuse to show its reruns? But it fills a slot for a season or less. >:>Yeah, Timmy said Cordelia was iconic to the show and would remain an >:>influence on Angel's story, but if they couldn't figure out how to >:>make HigherBeingCordy work, I doubt they can do much with >:>NotEvenThereCordy. >: >:It can't be that hard when we simpletons on the net can figure >:that one out. > >It's become increasingly clear to even one as slow on the uptake as I >that we are much smarter than they are. Heck, check out all the >fanwanking we've done that was incorporated into last season. Well, there's nothing wrong with incorporating fanwanks, if it makes sense to. For example, my viewpoint that TPTB includes all the supernatural powers like The First Evil to Jasmine the overbearing goodness. There's no problem with incorporating it. There's a problem if how you incorporate it sucks. >:>I can still hope that the fanfic you snipped is how the season (or >:>series) ends though, right? >: >:Hey, sure. Or have HigherBeingCordy turn them all into toads. > >Rats. ME writers. (Hah! I beatcha!) >:>I hear that. Part of me wants to watch, popcorn in hand, as ME >:>self-destructs right there in front of me. Then the other part of me >:>says the more they make it just like all the other crap on TV, the >:>more the critics will praise it and the hordes will watch it, so I >:>probably won't even get that satisfaction. >: >:The siren song of crap is often its own enjoyment. > >Thus the success of MST's 2 and 3K. But watching _Angel_ being written >to satisfy the dictates of the network and a few fans is just too sad >for me. The worst thing is that many of the ideas aren't that bad. If you want Faith to get out of jail, Angelus is a damn good reason. If you need Angelus, having to remove Angel's soul so as to retrieve vital information could make some sense. But for the reasons they gave? Eh. And how it made no arc sense is a major problem. You know, if they had just decided that the season arc was too screwed up that they would just blow it up and go mini arcs with little connection to each other, it probably would have played so much better. So you have the Beast come to play. Blocked out the sun. OK. You have that as the mid arc, but don't have it as anything to do with Cordelius. Don't have Cordelius wanting Angelus around when it makes no friggin sense to want Angelus around. They didn't even bothered to have Cordelius say *why* it made any sense. I assume because they couldn't figure out one. Namely, if you're not doing something well, don't do that something. Not seeing them doing season arcs that well right now. >:>:BTW, has anyone yet fessed up to why Charisma isn't there >:>:anymore? >:> >:>Not officially. >: >:A hearty Hmmmm. > >Yeah. ME and ASH both announced their new deal soon after the season >ender. Or you could look at it like they're still talking, so there's >no deal to talk about. ASH? Oh, you mean the actor who ME paid more per episode but only used him for 10 or so as to allow him more time with his grown up family. See, ME really cares about their employees, and families. >And then we can all go skipping through the fields chasing >leprechauns. Only if we can use good automatic weapons, and not some cheap knockoff of an AK-47. Cause them leprechauns can move awefully fast. >:>Timmy swore they were going to go with the C/C crap even before >:>Charisma told them she was pregnant. >: >:Why would an intelligent person admit to that? > >I believe your answer is in your question. So you like rhetorical questions that much that you answer them. :-) >:So how the hell were they going to dump Connor? > >Same way, I suppose. It's not like the kid ever had a solid grasp on >reality. Or the intelligence of a gnat. But he's top Ben percent on his SATs! :-) >:But at least this sounds a bit better, though still not seeing >:Cordelia in any of the actions this season. It looked all >:Cordemony to me. > >Oh, yeah. Another thing they confirmed. Angel's version of what >happened (a thing pretending to be Cordelia) is what we were seeing. Even they couldn't say that those actions were the Cordelia Chase we saw these past six years. >Never Cordelia. So, you know, "neener" to the weirdos who thought that >was Cordelia in "Spin the Bottle." Not that you like to feel superior to them that did. >:>That said, Timmy used the phrase "our hands were tied" in context with >:>having "this pregnant woman" to deal with more than once. It's a shame >:>that weren't true. If their hands had been tied, some better writers >:>may have had the chance to write this past season. >: >:The sad thing is you aren't wrong. > >No matter how much I wish I was. OTOH, Timmy really wasn't there much. Neither was Greenwalt. Nor Joss. They hired some clown whose ass they canned once the big brains figured out he couldn't do the job. By that time, the arcs were screwed up and nobody seem to have a clue on how to handle the situation. "I don't blame you, son. I blame the man who hired you." - Paul Brown to a bus driver he hired who got lost going to a game. Again, from my view sitting in the cheap seats. >: But hey, since ME >:>was very first writing staff in the history of the universe to have to >:>deal with an actress' pregnancy, we should forgive them their distress >:>at having to deal with "this pregnant woman". >: >:Not impressive, are they. > >Well, whatever. Charisma did say _Angel_ was a boy's club way back in >season one. I guess nothing's changed. It's one thing to be a boy's club, another to be the He-Man Womens Hater club. (A Little Rascals ref.) >:OTOH, there's a whole group who the term "lying hypocrites" >:seem to fit right about now from my cheap seats view, if much >:of any of my negative speculation has some truth. > >It's not entirely inaccurate. It's not like they won't bend over >backward to get SMG and Hannigan on the show, but no one's buying >CordyNAngle4Evah! lunchboxes, so... And it's not like Charisma hasn't made some teen flicks that she's earned big $$$ for doing their sequels. Or that she has dependents relying on her income, like SMG and Alyson do. >:>According to Timmy, having "killed" Connor, ME's now trying to think >:>of a way to get him back, at least for a few episodes. (Remember when >:>ME killed someone and they stayed dead? Robia and Bianca must be so >:>pissed off right now.) >: >:Hey, fair is fair. Robia could be playing The First even now. > >What have you head? That Robia didn't want to play The First, because it made her uneasy to do the role of a totally evil creature after her religious conversion. Ticked Joss off, from what I gather. Robia was willing to play Jenny Calender again. So that guaranteed Jenny would never be seen again. >:>It'd help if you'd get with the program. The fault is in the viewers, >:>not in the story. >: >:Yeah, we refuse to see the obvious greatness there. It's >:all our fault. > >Trust in Joss. Can you believe there are still people who believe >that? Hey, they needed a religion in their empty lives. They got one, clay feet and all. Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-19 23:50:26+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 19 May 2003 03:12:33 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :In article <197fcvkilkmkj4vimpamsuvb392pgflvm6@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: : :>On 17 May 2003 06:35:50 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :> :>:In article <n7racv86ittm708trvpajbocvfvn1c43lr@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: :> :>I think my point is they never *tried* to do anything with it. It was :>'Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Cordelia was ascending to :>heeeaaavvveeennn while Angel was descending to the ocean floor'. No :>one said, 'Yeah, that'd be cool. Then what?' : :Well, DG probably had an arc plan . But that plan didn't work :for the new guys. Or it didn't work with Charisma's condition. :Or it just plain didn't work and he wasn't around to fix it. All possibilities. I still believe no one ever thought past "Tomorrow," DG included. :The thing is if a planned arc isn't working, maybe you need :to ask yourself if an arc is even needed. It wasn't this season, on either series. :>The irony now being that at this point they may as well go on with the :>idea of HBCordy. Shipping Cordy off to Higher Being Land would be a :>good way to have the character depart without needing to look like a :>bunch of hacks. Yet again, Charisma pulls ME's ass out of the fire and :>makes them look better than they are. : :It's the only one that makes any sense now. But it would require them take back some of the character assassination they did this season, so it probably won't happen. And it'd probably be someone else playing Cordelia anyway. :>:So maybe a crossover with Lex Luthor? Maybe a trade of a :>:bleached blonde soulled vampire for a bald furture evil genius? :> :>Would that be better? I haven't seen _Smallville_ since the end of act :>one of the pilot ep. : :He's a better actor than JM. He's a better character than Spike. Well then go for it. The WB would go nuts over being able to promote the _Angel_/_Smallville_ crossover. :>I would never have thought that seven years later, the only actor from :>WTTH still on TV would be Boreanaz. : :Actually, the way TV works, I would. : :No, correction, that anyone would still be working after seven years :from a program's initial run is amazing. Still 80% unemployment :IIRC. I remember now that Chuck Norris' show was on for like fifty years, so never mind. :Hey, speaking of fanfic, here's a little one for next season: [Snipped the fanfic] :<MST3000>So what do you think, sirs?</MST3000> You have to keep it rooted in reality. There's no way anyone would believe Angel has balls in this scenario. :>:Jane's one of the best. That's a big loss. Though it's a gain :>:for Gilmore Girls. :> :>Yeah. I just hope they keep her around when the GG spin-off crashes :>and burns, 'cause it's going to if the writing for it is as bad as the :>sort-of pilot in the last episode suggests. And if they don't get rid :>of Sherilyn Fenn. : :OK, but does she still do the tongue thing with the cherry stem? Possibly, but there probably won't be a lot of call for that in an AS-P vehicle. Now if she shows up on _Angel_, that skill might come in handy. :I don't remember if she had one or not, but with her :work experience, not seeing it as being a problem :finding one. Yeah, Marti does have something; a show about a dead guy who watches over his family or some such. It's on Fox I believe, so probably not going to last even if it is better than it sounds. :>Oh, I forgot Petrie, probably because he hasn't given any interviews :>in which he said something monumentally stupid so he never felt like a :>real ME writer. Anyway, he's off to do movies. : :Best of luck to him. I thought that happened last year though. Really? I haven't been keeping up with who wrote what on _Buffy_. :>:Yep, and having seen it, liked it, but it still doesn't mean :>:the man whose name is about all others there doesn't hold :>:some responsibility for the whole product. Not just a couple :>:he directs/writes. :> :>True, but you know, he was probably also thinking about spaceships, :>space cowboys, and space hookers, so he had a lot of space in his head :>at the time. : :But ultimately who had to approve the hiring of the guy they canned :just a few weeks into the season? : :Oh wait, that's our fault. They didn't can him, he left for better opportunities. :>Ah, the glory days. If _Angel_ gets past November sweeps anyway. : :I'm not sure the WB has a mid-season replacement lined up :yet. Then again, how much support does the WB have for :a program they refuse to show its reruns? But it fills a slot :for a season or less. They still need a place to put the GG spin-off, and _Young McGuyver_ hangs like a dark cloud on the horizon. Plus there's all those guys from _Dawson's Creek_ needing a job. :Well, there's nothing wrong with incorporating fanwanks, if it makes :sense to. For example, my viewpoint that TPTB includes all the :supernatural powers like The First Evil to Jasmine the overbearing :goodness. There's no problem with incorporating it. There's a :problem if how you incorporate it sucks. Maybe not a problem as such, but when you're depending on your fans to try to make sense of what you're throwing on screen, it's not a good sign. :>:>I can still hope that the fanfic you snipped is how the season (or :>:>series) ends though, right? :>: :>:Hey, sure. Or have HigherBeingCordy turn them all into toads. :> :>Rats. : :ME writers. : :(Hah! I beatcha!) There are some depths higher beings cannot sink to. :>Thus the success of MST's 2 and 3K. But watching _Angel_ being written :>to satisfy the dictates of the network and a few fans is just too sad :>for me. : :The worst thing is that many of the ideas aren't that bad. Depending. If they want ANgel to crash and burn with the whole W&H thing, then fine. If they're going to start having everything Angel does turn out well, what's the point? The problem with the W&H thing though is Angel walked into it eyes wide open, so now when it crashes and burns, it's because he was dumb enough to get involved in the first place. :Namely, if you're not doing something well, don't do that :something. Not seeing them doing season arcs that :well right now. They did say the NEW! and IMPROVED! _Angel_, NOW WITH 100% MORE SPIKE! would be less arc heavy, more stand-alone. I guess there is some self-examination going on at ME after all. No, not like that. Well, yeah, probably like that too. As for the rest, I got the feeling this season was nothing but an unconnected series of events. I don't think, in retrospect, anything that happened between AN and IO can be called a plan. Perhaps that was the intent; undercutting Skip's claim that everything since whenever was all Jasmine's plan, but I can't say it worked out well for me. :>:>:BTW, has anyone yet fessed up to why Charisma isn't there :>:>:anymore? :>:> :>:>Not officially. :>: :>:A hearty Hmmmm. :> :>Yeah. ME and ASH both announced their new deal soon after the season :>ender. Or you could look at it like they're still talking, so there's :>no deal to talk about. : :ASH? Oh, you mean the actor who ME paid more per episode :but only used him for 10 or so as to allow him more time with :his grown up family. See, ME really cares about their employees, :and families. Yeah, that ASH. So Amy Acker was at the Saturn Awards and someone asked her about CC not returning. Her answer was, "I haven't even heard that officially. I guess it's official, but I'm not sure. Probably, she's been doing it for a long time, and now she has the baby, and she's a mom. So she has two jobs now." She was able to gush about how hard they're trying to get 'some of the girls from _Buffy_' on the show though. And now, it appears ME has decided Harmony will fill the void left by Cordelia, so we can all relax now. Of course, that's coming from Wrongda, so take it for what it's worth. In any event, it sounds like the sun has set on Cordelia now and forever. :>And then we can all go skipping through the fields chasing :>leprechauns. : :Only if we can use good automatic weapons, and not some :cheap knockoff of an AK-47. : :Cause them leprechauns can move awefully fast. Are they as fast as snipes? Those little bugger haul ass. :>:>Timmy swore they were going to go with the C/C crap even before :>:>Charisma told them she was pregnant. :>: :>:Why would an intelligent person admit to that? :> :>I believe your answer is in your question. : :So you like rhetorical questions that much that you answer them. :-) Rhetorical questions are evil. But technically I didn't answer the question, I just pointed out the answer was self-evident. :>:So how the hell were they going to dump Connor? :> :>Same way, I suppose. It's not like the kid ever had a solid grasp on :>reality. Or the intelligence of a gnat. : :But he's top Ben percent on his SATs! Wasn't Ben a rat too? Though if there were any further evidence that the strongest of black magicks were involved in turning Connor into "Ben", his being in the 90th percentile is it. :>:But at least this sounds a bit better, though still not seeing :>:Cordelia in any of the actions this season. It looked all :>:Cordemony to me. :> :>Oh, yeah. Another thing they confirmed. Angel's version of what :>happened (a thing pretending to be Cordelia) is what we were seeing. : :Even they couldn't say that those actions were the Cordelia Chase :we saw these past six years. Which, given what they thought was in character for Cordelia is saying something. :>Never Cordelia. So, you know, "neener" to the weirdos who thought that :>was Cordelia in "Spin the Bottle." : :Not that you like to feel superior to them that did. I would never say 'I told you so,' just consider it implied. Plus it's not as bad as the folks who thought Cordy screwing Connor was in character. :>:>That said, Timmy used the phrase "our hands were tied" in context with :>:>having "this pregnant woman" to deal with more than once. It's a shame :>:>that weren't true. If their hands had been tied, some better writers :>:>may have had the chance to write this past season. :>: :>:The sad thing is you aren't wrong. :> :>No matter how much I wish I was. : :OTOH, Timmy really wasn't there much. According to Timmy, he was there to break all the episodes. If he wasn't he talked like he was or else it would have been 'their hands were tied.' :"I don't blame you, son. I blame the man who hired you." - :Paul Brown to a bus driver he hired who got lost going to :a game. : :Again, from my view sitting in the cheap seats. It's probably not that far off the mark. :>Well, whatever. Charisma did say _Angel_ was a boy's club way back in :>season one. I guess nothing's changed. : :It's one thing to be a boy's club, another to be the He-Man :Womens Hater club. (A Little Rascals ref.) I wouldn't take it that far. :>:Hey, fair is fair. Robia could be playing The First even now. :> :>What have you heard? : :That Robia didn't want to play The First, because it :made her uneasy to do the role of a totally evil creature :after her religious conversion. Ticked Joss off, from what :I gather. Well, scruples and all. Can't have that. :Robia was willing to play Jenny Calender again. So that :guaranteed Jenny would never be seen again. Jenny, Oz, now Cordy. I'm seeing a potentially great cast for that sitcom. :>Trust in Joss. Can you believe there are still people who believe :>that? : :Hey, they needed a religion in their empty lives. : :They got one, clay feet and all. I suppose if you're going to trust the storyteller who tells the story the suits want to see, that's what's going to happen. OTOH, no suits, no story, so what can you do? Terry

2003-05-20 01:55:54+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <jgqicvc2r5h8hpmhqh4u62gg79gmv496lc@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >On 19 May 2003 03:12:33 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > >:In article <197fcvkilkmkj4vimpamsuvb392pgflvm6@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal >:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >: >:>On 17 May 2003 06:35:50 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: >:> >:>:In article <n7racv86ittm708trvpajbocvfvn1c43lr@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal >:>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >:> >:>I think my point is they never *tried* to do anything with it. It was >:>'Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Cordelia was ascending to >:>heeeaaavvveeennn while Angel was descending to the ocean floor'. No >:>one said, 'Yeah, that'd be cool. Then what?' >: >:Well, DG probably had an arc plan . But that plan didn't work >:for the new guys. Or it didn't work with Charisma's condition. >:Or it just plain didn't work and he wasn't around to fix it. > >All possibilities. I still believe no one ever thought past >"Tomorrow," DG included. So when did DG know he was going to be the showrunner on that other show? >:>The irony now being that at this point they may as well go on with the >:>idea of HBCordy. Shipping Cordy off to Higher Being Land would be a >:>good way to have the character depart without needing to look like a >:>bunch of hacks. Yet again, Charisma pulls ME's ass out of the fire and >:>makes them look better than they are. >: >:It's the only one that makes any sense now. > >But it would require them take back some of the character >assassination they did this season, so it probably won't happen. True. And >it'd probably be someone else playing Cordelia anyway. Oh yeah, that'll work. >:>:So maybe a crossover with Lex Luthor? Maybe a trade of a >:>:bleached blonde soulled vampire for a bald furture evil genius? >:> >:>Would that be better? I haven't seen _Smallville_ since the end of act >:>one of the pilot ep. >: >:He's a better actor than JM. He's a better character than Spike. > >Well then go for it. The WB would go nuts over being able to promote >the _Angel_/_Smallville_ crossover. Seeing that a vampire can actually hurt Superman, per the old DC comics, it might be fun for Spike too. >:>I would never have thought that seven years later, the only actor from >:>WTTH still on TV would be Boreanaz. >: >:Actually, the way TV works, I would. >: >:No, correction, that anyone would still be working after seven years >:from a program's initial run is amazing. Still 80% unemployment >:IIRC. > >I remember now that Chuck Norris' show was on for like fifty years, so >never mind. No, it only seemed like 50 years. >:Hey, speaking of fanfic, here's a little one for next season: > >[Snipped the fanfic] > >:<MST3000>So what do you think, sirs?</MST3000> > >You have to keep it rooted in reality. There's no way anyone would >believe Angel has balls in this scenario. Yeah, I did screw up royally there. And here I though I had made the great sequel to Provider. >:>:Jane's one of the best. That's a big loss. Though it's a gain >:>:for Gilmore Girls. >:> >:>Yeah. I just hope they keep her around when the GG spin-off crashes >:>and burns, 'cause it's going to if the writing for it is as bad as the >:>sort-of pilot in the last episode suggests. And if they don't get rid >:>of Sherilyn Fenn. >: >:OK, but does she still do the tongue thing with the cherry stem? > >Possibly, but there probably won't be a lot of call for that in an >AS-P vehicle. Still, a handy skill. >Now if she shows up on _Angel_, that skill might come in >handy. OK, my mind just went where it shouldn't have gone. Could you clarify that position? >:>Oh, I forgot Petrie, probably because he hasn't given any interviews >:>in which he said something monumentally stupid so he never felt like a >:>real ME writer. Anyway, he's off to do movies. >: >:Best of luck to him. I thought that happened last year though. > >Really? I haven't been keeping up with who wrote what on _Buffy_. Wasn't "Beneath You" his final script? That would have been broken down well before the season started. >:But ultimately who had to approve the hiring of the guy they canned >:just a few weeks into the season? >: > >They didn't can him, he left for better opportunities. Then I stand corrected. I had heard they mutually parted, which my cynical side usually takes as axed. >:>Ah, the glory days. If _Angel_ gets past November sweeps anyway. >: >:I'm not sure the WB has a mid-season replacement lined up >:yet. Then again, how much support does the WB have for >:a program they refuse to show its reruns? But it fills a slot >:for a season or less. > >They still need a place to put the GG spin-off, and _Young McGuyver_ >hangs like a dark cloud on the horizon. Plus there's all those guys >from _Dawson's Creek_ needing a job. Damn, I finally figured out a job for Spike on AtS, killing everyone of the Dawson's Creek characters. Turn a few so they can be staked. (OK, maybe not Joey.) >:Well, there's nothing wrong with incorporating fanwanks, if it makes >:sense to. > >Maybe not a problem as such, but when you're depending on your fans to >try to make sense of what you're throwing on screen, it's not a good >sign. It depends. If you need a fanwank as to why the hero arrives in the nick of time now and again, not a biggie. If you need it to explain why the hell JasminedCordelius wanted Angelus around, a problem. If you need it to figure out what the hell just happened, like Angel agreeing to take over W&H and kill his son (if he killed his son) so Connor could be a preppy, then you have a big problem. >:>:>I can still hope that the fanfic you snipped is how the season (or >:>:>series) ends though, right? >:>: >:>:Hey, sure. Or have HigherBeingCordy turn them all into toads. >:> >:>Rats. >: >:ME writers. >: >:(Hah! I beatcha!) > >There are some depths higher beings cannot sink to. And here I was afraid you'd go with TV executive. >:>Thus the success of MST's 2 and 3K. But watching _Angel_ being written >:>to satisfy the dictates of the network and a few fans is just too sad >:>for me. >: >:The worst thing is that many of the ideas aren't that bad. > >Depending. If they want ANgel to crash and burn with the whole W&H >thing, then fine. If they're going to start having everything Angel >does turn out well, what's the point? So their writing of Buffy these last few seasons don't look a bad as they were? The problem with the W&H thing >though is Angel walked into it eyes wide open, so now when it crashes >and burns, it's because he was dumb enough to get involved in the >first place. And this OOC stuff started when Wes decided to steal a little baby, instead of calling Cordy and Groo. >:Namely, if you're not doing something well, don't do that >:something. Not seeing them doing season arcs that >:well right now. > >They did say the NEW! and IMPROVED! _Angel_, NOW WITH 100% MORE SPIKE! I'm rooting for the FDA to rule him a carcinogen. >would be less arc heavy, more stand-alone. And Buffy in S6 would be lighter. Or was that S3? They're hooked on arcs. I guess there is some >self-examination going on at ME after all. No, not like that. Well, >yeah, probably like that too. So they're taking "Know thyself" to the logical extreme. >As for the rest, I got the feeling this season was nothing but an >unconnected series of events. I don't think, in retrospect, anything >that happened between AN and IO can be called a plan. Perhaps that was >the intent; undercutting Skip's claim that everything since whenever >was all Jasmine's plan, but I can't say it worked out well for me. No, they kept insisting in the text that all these things were interrelated. Granted, the reader shouldn't trust a damn thing they say in the text, subtext, or extra-textually, but pretty soon you really don't bother with any reading cause it's too much bother. >:>Yeah. ME and ASH both announced their new deal soon after the season >:>ender. >: >:ASH? Oh, you mean the actor who ME paid more per episode >:but only used him for 10 or so as to allow him more time with >:his grown up family. See, ME really cares about their employees, >:and families. > >Yeah, that ASH. So Amy Acker was at the Saturn Awards and someone >asked her about CC not returning. Her answer was, "I haven't even >heard that officially. I guess it's official, but I'm not sure. >Probably, she's been doing it for a long time, and now she has the >baby, and she's a mom. So she has two jobs now." So Amy can't tap dance? Or count? She was able to gush >about how hard they're trying to get 'some of the girls from _Buffy_' >on the show though. Great, you can have Angel and Lesser Angel with Spike, and you can have Willow and UberWillow. Won't it be just lovely. >And now, it appears ME has decided Harmony will fill the void left by >Cordelia, so we can all relax now. HAUUH? No, I mean HAUUH? So there just aren't enough vampires on the show. Or does Harmony have a little bit of soul now too? Cause no show should run out of soulled vampires. Need a few spares. Of course, that's coming from >Wrongda, so take it for what it's worth. In any event, it sounds like >the sun has set on Cordelia now and forever. Well, that'll mean Charisma will lose out on eight or so paychecks. Cause minor miracles won't be enough. >:>And then we can all go skipping through the fields chasing >:>leprechauns. >: >:Only if we can use good automatic weapons, and not some >:cheap knockoff of an AK-47. >: >:Cause them leprechauns can move awefully fast. > >Are they as fast as snipes? Those little bugger haul ass. Well, not so fast on 286's running Netware over Arcnet. Heh, running Netware. Arcnet. You see, there was this program... Nevermind. >:Or the intelligence of a gnat. >: >:But he's top Ben percent on his SATs! > >Wasn't Ben a rat too? Though if there were any further evidence that >the strongest of black magicks were involved in turning Connor into >"Ben", his being in the 90th percentile is it. Does seem screwy that the ConnorClone got the intelligent genes. (I assume they came though Darla, cause intelligent and how Angel was written this past season...) >:>Never Cordelia. So, you know, "neener" to the weirdos who thought that >:>was Cordelia in "Spin the Bottle." >: >:Not that you like to feel superior to them that did. > >I would never say 'I told you so,' just consider it implied. Plus it's >not as bad as the folks who thought Cordy screwing Connor was in >character. OK, just leave LU out of it. We're having a nice disagreement over free will right now. Don't wanna get into his thinking Cordy would ever sleep with Connor. "Not if the world was ending and you were the last man on -- not even then." >:OTOH, Timmy really wasn't there much. > >According to Timmy, he was there to break all the episodes. If he >wasn't he talked like he was or else it would have been 'their hands >were tied.' I thought he was running that vitally important new series that would change how we would view TV? >:>Well, whatever. Charisma did say _Angel_ was a boy's club way back in >:>season one. I guess nothing's changed. >: >:It's one thing to be a boy's club, another to be the He-Man >:Womens Hater club. (A Little Rascals ref.) > >I wouldn't take it that far. Neither did Alfalfa. Darla broke it up with ease. I was going more for the immaturity over the sexist. >:That Robia didn't want to play The First, because it >:made her uneasy to do the role of a totally evil creature >:after her religious conversion. Ticked Joss off, from what >:I gather. > >Well, scruples and all. Can't have that. > >:Robia was willing to play Jenny Calender again. So that >:guaranteed Jenny would never be seen again. > >Jenny, Oz, now Cordy. I'm seeing a potentially great cast for that >sitcom. Seth do a sitcom? Maybe. Still aren't there another dozen Austin Powers to do? >:>Trust in Joss. Can you believe there are still people who believe >:>that? >: >:Hey, they needed a religion in their empty lives. >: >:They got one, clay feet and all. > >I suppose if you're going to trust the storyteller who tells the story >the suits want to see, that's what's going to happen. OTOH, no suits, >no story, so what can you do? Call it a day and move on? Oh wait, doesn't that take scruples? Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-20 08:54:31+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Niall Harrison <sax@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>)


Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote: > In article <jgqicvc2r5h8hpmhqh4u62gg79gmv496lc@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal > <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >>:>Oh, I forgot Petrie, probably because he hasn't given any interviews >>:>in which he said something monumentally stupid so he never felt like a >>:>real ME writer. Anyway, he's off to do movies. >>: >>:Best of luck to him. I thought that happened last year though. >> >>Really? I haven't been keeping up with who wrote what on _Buffy_. > > Wasn't "Beneath You" his final script? That would have been > broken down well before the season started. Nope. He co-wrote 'Bring On The Night' with Marti; wrote and directed 'Get It Done' all on his lonesome; and co-wrote 'End Of Days' with Jane. It's possible I spend too much time keeping track of this stuff. Niall -- Verbing weirds language.

2003-05-20 22:56:24+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 20 May 2003 01:55:54 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :In article <jgqicvc2r5h8hpmhqh4u62gg79gmv496lc@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: : :>On 19 May 2003 03:12:33 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :> :>:In article <197fcvkilkmkj4vimpamsuvb392pgflvm6@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: :>: :>All possibilities. I still believe no one ever thought past :>"Tomorrow," DG included. : :So when did DG know he was going to be the showrunner :on that other show? With the understated yet sensitive way Fox goes about things? He had to at least see the writing on the wall when Noxon and Minear got those five-year deals with Fox and he didn't. : And :>it'd probably be someone else playing Cordelia anyway. : :Oh yeah, that'll work. Were it not for the fact that Joss was on staff of _Roseanne_ when Sarah Chalke became Becky, I'd discount it out of hand. But leave it to Joss to think he can do it and make it work. :>Well then go for it. The WB would go nuts over being able to promote :>the _Angel_/_Smallville_ crossover. : :Seeing that a vampire can actually hurt Superman, per :the old DC comics, it might be fun for Spike too. "Fun" fun or just fun? :>I remember now that Chuck Norris' show was on for like fifty years, so :>never mind. : :No, it only seemed like 50 years. Yes, that's true as well. :>:Hey, speaking of fanfic, here's a little one for next season: :> :>[Snipped the fanfic] :> :>:<MST3000>So what do you think, sirs?</MST3000> :> :>You have to keep it rooted in reality. There's no way anyone would :>believe Angel has balls in this scenario. : :Yeah, I did screw up royally there. : :And here I though I had made the great sequel to Provider. In the sense that "Provider" also was not rooted in reality, it was a good sequel to "Provider." :>Now if she shows up on _Angel_, that skill might come in :>handy. : :OK, my mind just went where it shouldn't have gone. Could you :clarify that position? No. I too am having visualization issues. :>:>Oh, I forgot Petrie, probably because he hasn't given any interviews :>:>in which he said something monumentally stupid so he never felt like a :>:>real ME writer. Anyway, he's off to do movies. :>: :>:Best of luck to him. I thought that happened last year though. :> :>Really? I haven't been keeping up with who wrote what on _Buffy_. : :Wasn't "Beneath You" his final script? That would have been :broken down well before the season started. I just checked and he's credited as co-writer with Jane on "End of Days." I stopped there though. Niall scares me. :>:But ultimately who had to approve the hiring of the guy they canned :>:just a few weeks into the season? :>: :> :>They didn't can him, he left for better opportunities. : :Then I stand corrected. I had heard they mutually parted, :which my cynical side usually takes as axed. Well, maybe we're talking about different people, what with all the comings and goings lately. :>They still need a place to put the GG spin-off, and _Young McGuyver_ :>hangs like a dark cloud on the horizon. Plus there's all those guys :>from _Dawson's Creek_ needing a job. : :Damn, I finally figured out a job for Spike on AtS, killing everyone :of the Dawson's Creek characters. Turn a few so they can :be staked. (OK, maybe not Joey.) Joey will be playing Cordelia. :>Maybe not a problem as such, but when you're depending on your fans to :>try to make sense of what you're throwing on screen, it's not a good :>sign. : :It depends. If you need a fanwank as to why the hero arrives :in the nick of time now and again, not a biggie. If you need it :to explain why the hell JasminedCordelius wanted Angelus :around, a problem. If you need it to figure out what the hell :just happened, like Angel agreeing to take over W&H and kill :his son (if he killed his son) so Connor could be a preppy, :then you have a big problem. Okay, well, what part of this makes you think ME using fanwanking to explain their own story isn't a big problem? :>:>:Hey, sure. Or have HigherBeingCordy turn them all into toads. :>:> :>:>Rats. :>: :>:ME writers. :>: :>:(Hah! I beatcha!) :> :>There are some depths higher beings cannot sink to. : :And here I was afraid you'd go with TV executive. I don't think even the Senior Partners can stoop that low. :>Depending. If they want ANgel to crash and burn with the whole W&H :>thing, then fine. If they're going to start having everything Angel :>does turn out well, what's the point? : :So their writing of Buffy these last few seasons don't look a :bad as they were? Two wrongs make a right? Or is it three lefts... I can never keep that straight. FWIW, I think you're right; they do intend to have the universe adapt to Angel as they did with Buffy. : The problem with the W&H thing :>though is Angel walked into it eyes wide open, so now when it crashes :>and burns, it's because he was dumb enough to get involved in the :>first place. : :And this OOC stuff started when Wes decided to steal a little baby, :instead of calling Cordy and Groo. Well, he forgot how to use a telephone. Can't blame him for that. And his widdle feelings were hurt. And a giant talking hamburger(!) told him it was true. Those are all good reasons to trust the enemy of his friend more than his friend. And to think it's Cordelia's arc people have issues with. I'll bet if CC grew a beard it'd change their minds. Certainly would mine. :>:Namely, if you're not doing something well, don't do that :>:something. Not seeing them doing season arcs that :>:well right now. :> :>They did say the NEW! and IMPROVED! _Angel_, NOW WITH 100% MORE SPIKE! : :I'm rooting for the FDA to rule him a carcinogen. They may not have enough time to do the clinical tests. :>would be less arc heavy, more stand-alone. : :And Buffy in S6 would be lighter. Or was that S3? : :They're hooked on arcs. Likely. ISTR that when _Angel_ first started the NEW! and IMPROVED! thing about it over _Buffy_ was that it would be less arc heavy and more stand-alone. Now we're back to where it started, and that's NEW! and IMPROVED! I ask again, how stupid does ME think we are? Aside from that 'still watching, ain'tcha?' aspect? : I guess there is some :>self-examination going on at ME after all. No, not like that. Well, :>yeah, probably like that too. : :So they're taking "Know thyself" to the logical extreme. Yeah. It's all fun and games until... No, I just can't. :>As for the rest, I got the feeling this season was nothing but an :>unconnected series of events. I don't think, in retrospect, anything :>that happened between AN and IO can be called a plan. Perhaps that was :>the intent; undercutting Skip's claim that everything since whenever :>was all Jasmine's plan, but I can't say it worked out well for me. : :No, they kept insisting in the text that all these things were :interrelated. Granted, the reader shouldn't trust a damn thing :they say in the text, subtext, or extra-textually, but pretty :soon you really don't bother with any reading cause it's too :much bother. But the insisters were evil, and demonstrably liars too boot. Then again, ME spent two years prior to this season insisting that Cordelia keeping the visions and embracing them as her part in making the world a better place was the right thing to do. Then this season, not so much. Go with the too much bother option. It's easier to explain why a character does a thing when the explanation is 'wouldn't it be cool if...' :>So Amy Acker was at the Saturn Awards and someone :>asked her about CC not returning. Her answer was, "I haven't even :>heard that officially. I guess it's official, but I'm not sure. :>Probably, she's been doing it for a long time, and now she has the :>baby, and she's a mom. So she has two jobs now." : :So Amy can't tap dance? Or count? Well *now* CC only has two jobs with the mom and wife gigs. Before she had three. More to the point, ME isn't even telling the people who work for them (for now) what's going on. : She was able to gush :>about how hard they're trying to get 'some of the girls from _Buffy_' :>on the show though. : :Great, you can have Angel and Lesser Angel with Spike, and you :can have Willow and UberWillow. Won't it be just lovely. Well, according to NB, you won't have Xander there to worry about. Just the girls. But Emma said not Anya, so not all the girls. :>And now, it appears ME has decided Harmony will fill the void left by :>Cordelia, so we can all relax now. : :HAUUH? Yes. :No, I mean HAUUH? I told you ME was going to turn Cordy into Xander. :So there just aren't enough vampires on the show. Or does Harmony :have a little bit of soul now too? Cause no show should run out of :soulled vampires. Need a few spares. Trust in Joss. Wow, I can't believe how hard it is to say that and not burst out laughing. Anyway, getting Harmony to "replace" Cordelia isn't even trying. Man, hard to believe it was just a year ago Joss said Cordelia was indispensable to _Angel_. : Of course, that's coming from :>Wrongda, so take it for what it's worth. In any event, it sounds like :>the sun has set on Cordelia now and forever. : :Well, that'll mean Charisma will lose out on eight or so :paychecks. Cause minor miracles won't be enough. Gotta say, if I were in CC's place and this move were true, my asking price per episode would have just gone up. :>Are they as fast as snipes? Those little bugger haul ass. : :Well, not so fast on 286's running Netware over Arcnet. : :Heh, running Netware. Arcnet. : :You see, there was this program... : :Nevermind. Okay. I was an Amigan at the time anyway. :>Wasn't Ben a rat too? Though if there were any further evidence that :>the strongest of black magicks were involved in turning Connor into :>"Ben", his being in the 90th percentile is it. : :Does seem screwy that the ConnorClone got the intelligent :genes. (I assume they came though Darla, cause intelligent :and how Angel was written this past season...) Well, call me slow, but it just occurred to me that Angelus had to know he and Cordelia were the only two other... things in the hotel when Lilah was killed and he knows he didn't kill Lilah, yet not until EvilCordy said "my sweet" were the scales tipped. I guess Angel's intelligence reflects the author's. :>I would never say 'I told you so,' just consider it implied. Plus it's :>not as bad as the folks who thought Cordy screwing Connor was in :>character. : :OK, just leave LU out of it. We're having a nice disagreement over :free will right now. Don't wanna get into his thinking Cordy would :ever sleep with Connor. T'weren't just LU. His reason just had the distinction of being the most disgusting reason why Cordy would sleep with Connor. In fact, after AN aired, I sampled umta and didn't come across a single post wherein the author suggested it was not in character for Cordy to bone Connor. Scary, part deux. :"Not if the world was ending and you were the last man on -- not :even then." Dennis and the loofah would seem to be a better option. :>According to Timmy, he was there to break all the episodes. If he :>wasn't he talked like he was or else it would have been 'their hands :>were tied.' : :I thought he was running that vitally important new series :that would change how we would view TV? Apparently he had time for both, or he exaggerated his level of involvement in this season. But why would an intelligent person brag about being involved with creating this season? :>:It's one thing to be a boy's club, another to be the He-Man :>:Womens Hater club. (A Little Rascals ref.) :> :>I wouldn't take it that far. : :Neither did Alfalfa. Darla broke it up with ease. : :I was going more for the immaturity over the sexist. Okay, maybe you could go that far. :>Jenny, Oz, now Cordy. I'm seeing a potentially great cast for that :>sitcom. : :Seth do a sitcom? Maybe. After _Greg the Bunny_, perhaps not. : Still aren't there another dozen Austin Powers to do? After the last Austin Powers? Perhaps not. :>I suppose if you're going to trust the storyteller who tells the story :>the suits want to see, that's what's going to happen. OTOH, no suits, :>no story, so what can you do? : :Call it a day and move on? : :Oh wait, doesn't that take scruples? Silly me. Never mind. Terry

2003-05-21 08:52:36+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Niall Harrison <sax@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>)


Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote: > On 20 May 2003 01:55:54 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > : > :Wasn't "Beneath You" his final script? That would have been > :broken down well before the season started. > > I just checked and he's credited as co-writer with Jane on "End of > Days." I stopped there though. Niall scares me. Not to worry. I also scare myself. > :>I would never say 'I told you so,' just consider it implied. Plus it's > :>not as bad as the folks who thought Cordy screwing Connor was in > :>character. > : > :OK, just leave LU out of it. We're having a nice disagreement over > :free will right now. Don't wanna get into his thinking Cordy would > :ever sleep with Connor. > > T'weren't just LU. His reason just had the distinction of being the > most disgusting reason why Cordy would sleep with Connor. In fact, > after AN aired, I sampled umta and didn't come across a single post > wherein the author suggested it was not in character for Cordy to bone > Connor. Scary, part deux. To be fair, by that point most of us had already seen 'Calvary' and were thus watching what we said, not wanting to hint at the twist to come. There were still a few outraged parties, though: http://makeashorterlink.com/?T16F614A4 (Of course, he has since changed his mind...) Niall -- When memes collide.

2003-05-21 22:35:04+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 21 May 2003 08:52:36 GMT, Niall Harrison <sax@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> wrote: :Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote: :> T'weren't just LU. His reason just had the distinction of being the :> most disgusting reason why Cordy would sleep with Connor. In fact, :> after AN aired, I sampled umta and didn't come across a single post :> wherein the author suggested it was not in character for Cordy to bone :> Connor. Scary, part deux. : :To be fair, by that point most of us had already seen 'Calvary' and were :thus watching what we said, not wanting to hint at the twist to come. :There were still a few outraged parties, though: : :http://makeashorterlink.com/?T16F614A4 Well a passionate claim for the disgustingness of the scene to be sure, but it's not questioning the in-character quality. But I understand the need to say less when you know more. And it didn't help that ME lied to the audience to preserver their little surprise. :(Of course, he has since changed his mind...) Why "of course"? It was supposed to be disgusting according to everyone involved with the scene. ISTM it was the others who got it wrong. Terry

2003-05-22 05:26:18+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <ltblcv4qu1bprs8cvcjg2tnesb7ejhqhle@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >On 20 May 2003 01:55:54 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > >:In article <jgqicvc2r5h8hpmhqh4u62gg79gmv496lc@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal >:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >: >:>On 19 May 2003 03:12:33 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: >:> >:>:In article <197fcvkilkmkj4vimpamsuvb392pgflvm6@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal >:>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >:>: >:>All possibilities. I still believe no one ever thought past >:>"Tomorrow," DG included. >: >:So when did DG know he was going to be the showrunner >:on that other show? > >With the understated yet sensitive way Fox goes about things? He had >to at least see the writing on the wall when Noxon and Minear got >those five-year deals with Fox and he didn't. Namely, in plenty of time to leave them high and dry? Weird theory, ME likes playing games with itself. The writers write up some of the most untenable storylines and then leave it to others to clean up. Then they reverse it so the first has to clean up the second's untenable. >:>Well then go for it. The WB would go nuts over being able to promote >:>the _Angel_/_Smallville_ crossover. >: >:Seeing that a vampire can actually hurt Superman, per >:the old DC comics, it might be fun for Spike too. > >"Fun" fun or just fun? Hey, Spike beating up on the "Man of Steel"? That use to be fun for the old Spike. >:>[Snipped the fanfic] >:> >:>You have to keep it rooted in reality. There's no way anyone would >:>believe Angel has balls in this scenario. >: >:Yeah, I did screw up royally there. >: >:And here I though I had made the great sequel to Provider. > >In the sense that "Provider" also was not rooted in reality, it was a >good sequel to "Provider." Thanks. >:>:>Oh, I forgot Petrie, probably because he hasn't given any interviews >:>:>in which he said something monumentally stupid so he never felt like a >:>:>real ME writer. Anyway, he's off to do movies. >:>: >:>:Best of luck to him. I thought that happened last year though. >:> >:>Really? I haven't been keeping up with who wrote what on _Buffy_. >: >:Wasn't "Beneath You" his final script? That would have been >:broken down well before the season started. > >I just checked and he's credited as co-writer with Jane on "End of >Days." I stopped there though. Niall scares me. Not as much as people who think I know what I'm talking about. Sheesh, wrote the next to last. Fortunately, you aren't one of those people. >:>:But ultimately who had to approve the hiring of the guy they canned >:>:just a few weeks into the season? >:>: >:> >:>They didn't can him, he left for better opportunities. >: >:Then I stand corrected. I had heard they mutually parted, >:which my cynical side usually takes as axed. > >Well, maybe we're talking about different people, what with all the >comings and goings lately. The Freakylinks dude? Again, knowing what I'm talking about, not always an issue. >:>They still need a place to put the GG spin-off, and _Young McGuyver_ >:>hangs like a dark cloud on the horizon. Plus there's all those guys >:>from _Dawson's Creek_ needing a job. >: >:Damn, I finally figured out a job for Spike on AtS, killing everyone >:of the Dawson's Creek characters. Turn a few so they can >:be staked. (OK, maybe not Joey.) > >Joey will be playing Cordelia. Couple seasons back, maybe. The girl looks slagged now. What happened? Or don't I wanna know? >:>Maybe not a problem as such, but when you're depending on your fans to >:>try to make sense of what you're throwing on screen, it's not a good >:>sign. >: >:It depends. If you need a fanwank as to why the hero arrives >:in the nick of time now and again, not a biggie. If you need it >:to explain why the hell JasminedCordelius wanted Angelus >:around, a problem. If you need it to figure out what the hell >:just happened, like Angel agreeing to take over W&H and kill >:his son (if he killed his son) so Connor could be a preppy, >:then you have a big problem. > >Okay, well, what part of this makes you think ME using fanwanking to >explain their own story isn't a big problem? Well, yeah, ME using fanwanks has been not of the good. But in theory, it doesn't have to aways... wait, it's ME we're talking about. OK, point taken. >:>Depending. If they want ANgel to crash and burn with the whole W&H >:>thing, then fine. If they're going to start having everything Angel >:>does turn out well, what's the point? >: >:So their writing of Buffy these last few seasons don't look a >:bad as they were? > >Two wrongs make a right? Or is it three lefts... I can never keep that >straight. FWIW, I think you're right; they do intend to have the >universe adapt to Angel as they did with Buffy. I hope they at least would get the irony, like TM getting that Angel's killing Connor to save him wasn't good. >: The problem with the W&H thing >:>though is Angel walked into it eyes wide open, so now when it crashes >:>and burns, it's because he was dumb enough to get involved in the >:>first place. >: >:And this OOC stuff started when Wes decided to steal a little baby, >:instead of calling Cordy and Groo. > >Well, he forgot how to use a telephone. Can't blame him for that. And >his widdle feelings were hurt. And a giant talking hamburger(!) told >him it was true. Those are all good reasons to trust the enemy of his >friend more than his friend. Yeah, there's that. And to think it's Cordelia's arc people >have issues with. I'll bet if CC grew a beard it'd change their minds. >Certainly would mine. Well, seeing that Cordy is a more important character, yeah, there should be more of an issue. And having CC as the best looking bearded lady really wouldn't solve anything with the weirdness of their character arcs. Other than giving some of us latent issues. >:>:Namely, if you're not doing something well, don't do that >:>:something. Not seeing them doing season arcs that >:>:well right now. >:> >:>They did say the NEW! and IMPROVED! _Angel_, NOW WITH 100% MORE SPIKE! >: >:I'm rooting for the FDA to rule him a carcinogen. > >They may not have enough time to do the clinical tests. *^$&%#%@! Incompetent government agency. >:>would be less arc heavy, more stand-alone. >: >:And Buffy in S6 would be lighter. Or was that S3? >: >:They're hooked on arcs. > >Likely. ISTR that when _Angel_ first started the NEW! and IMPROVED! >thing about it over _Buffy_ was that it would be less arc heavy and >more stand-alone. Now we're back to where it started, and that's NEW! >and IMPROVED! I ask again, how stupid does ME think we are? Aside from >that 'still watching, ain'tcha?' aspect? "Stupid is as stupid does." You can't take away that aspect, cause it's the one that matters. >: I guess there is some >:>self-examination going on at ME after all. No, not like that. Well, >:>yeah, probably like that too. >: >:So they're taking "Know thyself" to the logical extreme. > >Yeah. It's all fun and games until... No, I just can't. Sure you can! >:>As for the rest, I got the feeling this season was nothing but an >:>unconnected series of events. I don't think, in retrospect, anything >:>that happened between AN and IO can be called a plan. Perhaps that was >:>the intent; undercutting Skip's claim that everything since whenever >:>was all Jasmine's plan, but I can't say it worked out well for me. >: >:No, they kept insisting in the text that all these things were >:interrelated. Granted, the reader shouldn't trust a damn thing >:they say in the text, subtext, or extra-textually, but pretty >:soon you really don't bother with any reading cause it's too >:much bother. > >But the insisters were evil, and demonstrably liars too boot. Then >again, ME spent two years prior to this season insisting that Cordelia >keeping the visions and embracing them as her part in making the world >a better place was the right thing to do. Then this season, not so >much. Go with the too much bother option. It's easier to explain why a >character does a thing when the explanation is 'wouldn't it be cool >if...' > >:>So Amy Acker was at the Saturn Awards and someone >:>asked her about CC not returning. Her answer was, "I haven't even >:>heard that officially. I guess it's official, but I'm not sure. >:>Probably, she's been doing it for a long time, and now she has the >:>baby, and she's a mom. So she has two jobs now." >: >:So Amy can't tap dance? > >More to the point, ME isn't even telling the people who work for them >(for now) what's going on. Guys, it's a low rated TV show, not the CIA. And it's not like their secrecy works. Don't say that yes the budget is tight but that had nothing to do with all these people given the heave ho. Cause cynics like me are going to then "know" it was all about the dough. Like how BtVS in S6 production levels sucked, except for a musical episode. We kinda know when egos go overboard. >: She was able to gush >:>about how hard they're trying to get 'some of the girls from _Buffy_' >:>on the show though. >: >:Great, you can have Angel and Lesser Angel with Spike, and you >:can have Willow and UberWillow. Won't it be just lovely. > >Well, according to NB, you won't have Xander there to worry about. Call me a cynic, but I'm not sure that was because of NB's decision. (Again, baseless speculation looking at all PR statements as the opposite of what they say.) >Just the girls. But Emma said not Anya, so not all the girls. Well, there's only one I'd want, and I'm not expecting to see her, cause still a junior. >:>And now, it appears ME has decided Harmony will fill the void left by >:>Cordelia, so we can all relax now. >: >:HAUUH? > >Yes. No offense to the actress, who's a babe, but an air head vampire as a replacement for the smartest character in the series? HAUUH? >:No, I mean HAUUH? > >I told you ME was going to turn Cordy into Xander. Yuck. Now Harm can be a great tool for Spike. But she was shown as an annoyance in Disharmony for everyone else in the group. She'd be staked on sight by everyone on AI. >:So there just aren't enough vampires on the show. Or does Harmony >:have a little bit of soul now too? Cause no show should run out of >:soulled vampires. Need a few spares. > >Trust in Joss. Wow, I can't believe how hard it is to say that and not >burst out laughing. Hey, I trust he'll have a great time playing with his kid. AtS OTOH... >Anyway, getting Harmony to "replace" Cordelia isn't even trying. Man, >hard to believe it was just a year ago Joss said Cordelia was >indispensable to _Angel_. I think they'll find she is, the hard way. Now, again, my contrarian side would say that there is a way to get it to work without Cordelia being around, but that would mean the writers would have to get it, that having Cordelia around was vital for Angel. If this season is more about Cordelia, with her not being around, than say the past season and a half, then they might be able to make it work. But Harm? They'll need a ton of shower scenes for this to work. >: Of course, that's coming from >:>Wrongda, so take it for what it's worth. In any event, it sounds like >:>the sun has set on Cordelia now and forever. >: >:Well, that'll mean Charisma will lose out on eight or so >:paychecks. Cause minor miracles won't be enough. > >Gotta say, if I were in CC's place and this move were true, my asking >price per episode would have just gone up. Hey, desperate times... And Lord knows, ME's in for some desperate times IMO. >:Does seem screwy that the ConnorClone got the intelligent >:genes. (I assume they came though Darla, cause intelligent >:and how Angel was written this past season...) > >Well, call me slow, but it just occurred to me that Angelus had to >know he and Cordelia were the only two other... things in the hotel >when Lilah was killed and he knows he didn't kill Lilah, yet not until >EvilCordy said "my sweet" were the scales tipped. I guess Angel's >intelligence reflects the author's. Though I could argue that level of intelligence and Angel, not out of character the way he's been written. >:>I would never say 'I told you so,' just consider it implied. Plus it's >:>not as bad as the folks who thought Cordy screwing Connor was in >:>character. >: >:OK, just leave LU out of it. > >T'weren't just LU. His reason just had the distinction of being the >most disgusting reason why Cordy would sleep with Connor. In fact, >after AN aired, I sampled umta and didn't come across a single post >wherein the author suggested it was not in character for Cordy to bone >Connor. Scary, part deux. Really. Now, I would argue this. There could be a situation where Cordy could have boned Connor. But not after telling Angel how she loved him. Not because the world was coming to an end for the, what, fifth or sixth time in her life. Problem was, they didn't want Cordy to fall in love with Connor, or to have done it when she was without her memory. (I'm guessing that they didn't want Connor to have taken advantage of Cordy cause Lord knows that would mean the audience might not like Connor. Oh wait...) That scene didn't even work as a decent parody of Surprise/Innocence, which it really could have been. >:>According to Timmy, he was there to break all the episodes. If he >:>wasn't he talked like he was or else it would have been 'their hands >:>were tied.' >: >:I thought he was running that vitally important new series >:that would change how we would view TV? > >Apparently he had time for both, or he exaggerated his level of >involvement in this season. But why would an intelligent person brag >about being involved with creating this season? Didn't you say something about the answer being self evident in the question? I think he might be slightly falling on the sword for a couple of friends (Bell and Joss). Hell, why not, he's running another show. >:>Jenny, Oz, now Cordy. I'm seeing a potentially great cast for that >:>sitcom. >: >: Still aren't there another dozen Austin Powers to do? > >After the last Austin Powers? Perhaps not. I still haven't seen the first two. After Casino Royal, what more could a parody do? >:>I suppose if you're going to trust the storyteller who tells the story >:>the suits want to see, that's what's going to happen. OTOH, no suits, >:>no story, so what can you do? >: >:Call it a day and move on? >: >:Oh wait, doesn't that take scruples? > >Silly me. Never mind. Well, if you want me to put aside my fanboy mentality and remember back to my undergrad days of a Business major... The economics of the situation was that the WB were willing to continue showing AtS, for a rate that made it still profitable and a decision that a popular character was to be added fulltime. All rational business decisions. Fox, having lost money on its last ME project, and the profitable one just ending its run, cuts back the funding on AtS. This allows it better potential for profits from this coming season and reduces its likelyhood for loss. ME, having decreasing budgets, while having to increase payroll to add the character demanded by the WB execs, cut back in the areas they can. Any expensive writer is allowed to go work on other projects, as they all seem to have easily been able to do. One character was already written out, another was cut back severely. Again, solid business decisions. The writers left are talented though not as proven. The cast is proven, and the addition hopefully popular enough to add viewers over any lose from the fans of the ended characters. And without that character, no series, so it's worth the risk. CC looked at the declining opportunities with ME and realized she'd be better off personally, economically, and artistically going out for guest shots on other series than trying to fit into ME's plans. Again, it's a proper analysis of the market and the situation by all parties. But I'm a fanboy! I WANT MY CORDY! So I'm gonna rant, rave, and act, well, like I normally do on the net. I'm gonna sit in the corner and pout. Stephen Weick <Fill In The Blank>

2003-05-22 08:59:02+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Niall Harrison <sax@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>)


Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote: > On 21 May 2003 08:52:36 GMT, Niall Harrison <sax@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: > :Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote: > :> T'weren't just LU. His reason just had the distinction of being the > :> most disgusting reason why Cordy would sleep with Connor. In fact, > :> after AN aired, I sampled umta and didn't come across a single post > :> wherein the author suggested it was not in character for Cordy to bone > :> Connor. Scary, part deux. > : > :To be fair, by that point most of us had already seen 'Calvary' and were > :thus watching what we said, not wanting to hint at the twist to come. > :There were still a few outraged parties, though: > : > :http://makeashorterlink.com/?T16F614A4 > > Well a passionate claim for the disgustingness of the scene to be > sure, but it's not questioning the in-character quality. Well, he did do that elsewhere. But that was the most dramatic post that came to hand. :) > But I understand the need to say less when you know more. And it didn't > help that ME lied to the audience to preserver their little surprise. There's that. Much as I like S4, gotta agree that the Cordy part of it wasn't handled all that well. Or indeed, at all well. > :(Of course, he has since changed his mind...) > > Why "of course"? It was supposed to be disgusting according to > everyone involved with the scene. ISTM it was the others who got it > wrong. OK, so that was inaccurate of me. He's happy with the fact that it was meant to be disgusting. Niall -- A little charm and a lot of style.

2003-05-22 22:53:00+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 22 May 2003 08:59:02 GMT, Niall Harrison <sax@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> wrote: :Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote: :> :http://makeashorterlink.com/?T16F614A4 :> :> Well a passionate claim for the disgustingness of the scene to be :> sure, but it's not questioning the in-character quality. : :Well, he did do that elsewhere. But that was the most dramatic post that :came to hand. :) Fair enough. :> But I understand the need to say less when you know more. And it didn't :> help that ME lied to the audience to preserve their little surprise. : :There's that. Much as I like S4, gotta agree that the Cordy part of it :wasn't handled all that well. Or indeed, at all well. Art imitates life. Or in this case, life imitates art, I suppose. :> :(Of course, he has since changed his mind...) :> :> Why "of course"? It was supposed to be disgusting according to :> everyone involved with the scene. ISTM it was the others who got it :> wrong. : :OK, so that was inaccurate of me. He's happy with the fact that it was :meant to be disgusting. Ah. Well, he deserves that happiness. Good for him. ;) Terry

2003-05-22 23:23:19+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 22 May 2003 05:26:18 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :In article <ltblcv4qu1bprs8cvcjg2tnesb7ejhqhle@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: : :>On 20 May 2003 01:55:54 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :> :>:In article <jgqicvc2r5h8hpmhqh4u62gg79gmv496lc@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: :>: :>:>On 19 May 2003 03:12:33 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :>:So when did DG know he was going to be the showrunner :>:on that other show? :> :>With the understated yet sensitive way Fox goes about things? He had :>to at least see the writing on the wall when Noxon and Minear got :>those five-year deals with Fox and he didn't. : :Namely, in plenty of time to leave them high and dry? But Greenwalt also claims to have been in on advising the gang this season. Surely all they needed to do was ask. And why are all these intelligent people trying to take credit for this past season? :Weird theory, ME likes playing games with itself. The writers :write up some of the most untenable storylines and then :leave it to others to clean up. Then they reverse it so the first :has to clean up the second's untenable. Basing all their decisions on 'wouldn't it be cool if...' is a simpler explanation. :>:Seeing that a vampire can actually hurt Superman, per :>:the old DC comics, it might be fun for Spike too. :> :>"Fun" fun or just fun? : :Hey, Spike beating up on the "Man of Steel"? :That use to be fun for the old Spike. But old Spike had Drusilla. :>:And here I though I had made the great sequel to Provider. :> :>In the sense that "Provider" also was not rooted in reality, it was a :>good sequel to "Provider." : :Thanks. You're welcome? :>I just checked and he's credited as co-writer with Jane on "End of :>Days." I stopped there though. Niall scares me. : :Not as much as people who think I know what I'm talking :about. Sheesh, wrote the next to last. : :Fortunately, you aren't one of those people. Oh, well, I just hate being wrong. Lucky for me, I never am. :>Well, maybe we're talking about different people, what with all the :>comings and goings lately. : :The Freakylinks dude? : :Again, knowing what I'm talking about, not always an issue. Oh, Simkins. I thought you meant the geek who wrote "Provider". I never heard why Simkins got booted beyond the creative differences bit. I like to think it's because he said 'You want who to do what now? Because why again? Are you all mad, or just keeping the bad drugs out of general circulation?' But it was probably just because he wouldn't make coffee for Joss in the morning. :>Joey will be playing Cordelia. : :Couple seasons back, maybe. The girl looks slagged now. : :What happened? Or don't I wanna know? Dunno. But then SMG was looking a little rough around the edges last Tuesday, so maybe it's a thing that happens after you've been on TV for six or seven years. :>Okay, well, what part of this makes you think ME using fanwanking to :>explain their own story isn't a big problem? : :Well, yeah, ME using fanwanks has been not of the good. :But in theory, it doesn't have to aways... wait, it's ME :we're talking about. : :OK, point taken. They do tend to rely more heavily on them than most. Though I gather from here on out, the guys at Fox and the WB will be providing all the fanwanking necessary. :>Two wrongs make a right? Or is it three lefts... I can never keep that :>straight. FWIW, I think you're right; they do intend to have the :>universe adapt to Angel as they did with Buffy. : :I hope they at least would get the irony, like TM getting :that Angel's killing Connor to save him wasn't good. Honestly, they may not have even noticed. Maybe that's why Timmy said he wanted to write the Connor returns episode. :And to think it's Cordelia's arc people :>have issues with. I'll bet if CC grew a beard it'd change their minds. :>Certainly would mine. : :Well, seeing that Cordy is a more important character, :yeah, there should be more of an issue. Apparently she's not. Though I'll bet if CC were engaged to Hannigan, Cordy would be a more important character. :And having CC as the best looking bearded lady really :wouldn't solve anything with the weirdness of their character :arcs. : :Other than giving some of us latent issues. Mmm... Lauren Graham... :>Likely. ISTR that when _Angel_ first started the NEW! and IMPROVED! :>thing about it over _Buffy_ was that it would be less arc heavy and :>more stand-alone. Now we're back to where it started, and that's NEW! :>and IMPROVED! I ask again, how stupid does ME think we are? Aside from :>that 'still watching, ain'tcha?' aspect? : :"Stupid is as stupid does." : :You can't take away that aspect, cause it's the one that matters. So then Joss assumes everyone who watches his stuff is a complete idiot? That does explain some stuff. :>:So they're taking "Know thyself" to the logical extreme. :> :>Yeah. It's all fun and games until... No, I just can't. : :Sure you can! No. I literally couldn't. :>More to the point, ME isn't even telling the people who work for them :>(for now) what's going on. : :Guys, it's a low rated TV show, not the CIA. : :And it's not like their secrecy works. : :Don't say that yes the budget is tight but that had :nothing to do with all these people given the heave ho. : :Cause cynics like me are going to then "know" it was :all about the dough. : :Like how BtVS in S6 production levels sucked, except :for a musical episode. We kinda know when egos go :overboard. Well, it's official; David E. Kelley is a classier guy than Joss. Who'da thunk it? :>Well, according to NB, you won't have Xander there to worry about. : :Call me a cynic, but I'm not sure that was because of :NB's decision. (Again, baseless speculation looking :at all PR statements as the opposite of what they say.) It's my experience that when you fell free to categorically claim a thing won't happen, it's usually because you know you're not the one who's mind is going to change :>Just the girls. But Emma said not Anya, so not all the girls. : :Well, there's only one I'd want, and I'm not expecting to :see her, cause still a junior. Isn't that what that other thread is about? People who have no problem with Connor getting two years older in three months can't grasp the idea that ME is going to put him in college or high school according to their own whim? :>:>And now, it appears ME has decided Harmony will fill the void left by :>:>Cordelia, so we can all relax now. :>: :>:HAUUH? :> :>Yes. : :No offense to the actress, who's a babe, but an air head :vampire as a replacement for the smartest character in :the series? HAUUH? To be fair, I think Harmony was just to replace one aspect of Cordelia. Fred was obviously groomed to replace another aspect in the final five episodes this season. Spike now will be needed to replace another aspect. So as with _Buffy_, it will take more than one character to bring what Cordelia alone brought to the table. And as with _Buffy_, it won't be as successful as just having the one character was. :Now Harm can be a great tool for Spike. Or Spike can be a great tool for Harmony. She seemed to be into it before. :But she was shown :as an annoyance in Disharmony for everyone else in the :group. She'd be staked on sight by everyone on AI. The same pointy stick immunity that affected Spike will encompass his One Twue Wuv. The Wesleyans and Gunners are in for a long, hard season. :>Trust in Joss. Wow, I can't believe how hard it is to say that and not :>burst out laughing. : :Hey, I trust he'll have a great time playing with his kid. : :AtS OTOH... Should keep him busy 'til Halloween. :>Anyway, getting Harmony to "replace" Cordelia isn't even trying. Man, :>hard to believe it was just a year ago Joss said Cordelia was :>indispensable to _Angel_. : :I think they'll find she is, the hard way. : :Now, again, my contrarian side would say that there is :a way to get it to work without Cordelia being around, :but that would mean the writers would have to get it, :that having Cordelia around was vital for Angel. If this :season is more about Cordelia, with her not being around, :than say the past season and a half, then they might :be able to make it work. If they were better writers. But they screwed up Cordelia when she was on the show, so I have no hope they'll do anything more than two or three references to her in the first couple of episodes. After that, you'll never again hear the name mentioned again. If the ratings jump dramatically, you may never hear her name after the first episode. :>Gotta say, if I were in CC's place and this move were true, my asking :>price per episode would have just gone up. : :Hey, desperate times... And Lord knows, ME's in for some :desperate times IMO. Very likely. Yet, there may be profitability in reducing _Angel_ to the lowest common denominator :Though I could argue that level of intelligence and Angel, not out :of character the way he's been written. No, not making that argument. It's just another example of ME trying to be smarter than they are. :>T'weren't just LU. His reason just had the distinction of being the :>most disgusting reason why Cordy would sleep with Connor. In fact, :>after AN aired, I sampled umta and didn't come across a single post :>wherein the author suggested it was not in character for Cordy to bone :>Connor. Scary, part deux. : :Really. : :Now, I would argue this. There could be a situation where :Cordy could have boned Connor. But not after telling Angel :how she loved him. Not because the world was coming to :an end for the, what, fifth or sixth time in her life. Well, a lot of people don't get that. And I think a lot of people would have believed anything if it meant an end to CordyNAngle4EVAH! For instance, some people believe the cookie dough speech wasn't just another in an on-going series of infantile moments. :Problem was, they didn't want Cordy to fall in love with Connor, :or to have done it when she was without her memory. (I'm :guessing that they didn't want Connor to have taken advantage :of Cordy cause Lord knows that would mean the audience :might not like Connor. Oh wait...) Well, there's PJ, Connor's own personal stalker. The more cynical side of me believes they waited until Cordy had her memory back only because it would be more of a SHOCK! and SURPRISE! :That scene didn't even work as a decent parody of Surprise/Innocence, :which it really could have been. I can't see it. :>Apparently he had time for both, or he exaggerated his level of :>involvement in this season. But why would an intelligent person brag :>about being involved with creating this season? : :Didn't you say something about the answer being self evident :in the question? I was doing refer backs in lieu of actual continuity. :I think he might be slightly falling on the sword for a couple :of friends (Bell and Joss). Hell, why not, he's running another :show. Yep. About a woman who has visions of the helple... people in need. I know you know, I just love the irony. :>:>Jenny, Oz, now Cordy. I'm seeing a potentially great cast for that :>:>sitcom. :>: :>: Still aren't there another dozen Austin Powers to do? :> :>After the last Austin Powers? Perhaps not. : :I still haven't seen the first two. After Casino Royal, what :more could a parody do? I haven't seen the second or third, but if word of mouth is an indication, AP has gone the way of A&P. See what I did there? A cultural reference, along with my refer back earlier. I'm going to Hollywood. :>:Call it a day and move on? :>: :>:Oh wait, doesn't that take scruples? :> :>Silly me. Never mind. : :Well, if you want me to put aside my fanboy mentality and remember :back to my undergrad days of a Business major... No, don't do anything on my account. [Snipped the business model] :Again, it's a proper analysis of the market and the situation by :all parties. It does cover the lack of money, the WB's demand that Spike be shoehorned into every episode, Fox's dictate to drop C/A and promote BuffyNAngle4EVAH!, and Fred apparently taking over Cordy's role as Angel's confidant in the series late last season. Not to mention Harmony. :But I'm a fanboy! I WANT MY CORDY! So I'm gonna rant, :rave, and act, well, like I normally do on the net. : :I'm gonna sit in the corner and pout. At this point, I'd say that's as effective a way to get CC back as any. I think there's a better chance that Pruitt will be back before CC is. Terry

2003-05-23 01:16:56+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"SWeick" <sweick@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030522012618.29071.00000132@mb-m26.aol.com... > In article <ltblcv4qu1bprs8cvcjg2tnesb7ejhqhle@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal > <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: > > But I'm a fanboy! I WANT MY CORDY! So I'm gonna rant, > rave, and act, well, like I normally do on the net. > > I'm gonna sit in the corner and pout. Can I join you? Maybe UMTA will let us borrow their drak corner. [1] -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick [1] inside joke. Someone misspelled dark once upon a time.

2003-05-23 03:09:22-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (dxgarten@ignmail.com)


reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote in message news:<1faed770.0305151745.2cf258a4@posting.google.com>... > The audience is not monolithic, of course. A few people out there > harbor hatred toward the character of Spike. But thousands more, > perhaps millions more, love watching him. ME and the WB know that; > they know whom to aim for. It must make you feel pretty > insignificant, doesn't it? I'd rather be one of those insignificant ones if it means that I make quality choice in what I see. Millions squealling teenage girls luurvee Britney Spears. Doesn't mean that she's a talented singer. Maximum numbers of lowest common denominators doesn't equal good taste.

2003-05-23 03:39:28-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (dxgarten@ignmail.com)


Houmatt00@yahoo.com (Reed Richards) wrote in message news:<9447e9d5.0305121143.5c18dc5c@posting.google.com>... > If anyone hasn't already said it, then let me be the first: Fuck > off and die. > > I'd bet I know why you dislike the character so much. It is because > you (a guy) came into contact with Marsters and sent him some pictures > of yourself doing disgusting things, saying you wanted to have sex > with him, and he responded with a restraining order. > > You need to grow up, and shut up. The rest of us have better things > to do than read the rantings of a mentally unstable fucktard. Tell me again why people keep calling Spike fans "Spike-o-paths?".

2003-05-23 14:06:23-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


SWeick wrote: > In article <46lqcvg9mp25mvs59ffscg33uat8eb98jh@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal > <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >>Dunno. But then SMG was looking a little rough around the edges last >>Tuesday, so maybe it's a thing that happens after you've been on TV >>for six or seven years. > > Then explain CC. Not looking that way after seven. 1. Charisma was always more babe-alicious than Sarah. 2. Charisma hasn't been the title character for seven years (I have lots of complaints about the last four years of Buffy, but that doesn't mean I don't think Sarah was working hard all that time).

2003-05-23 17:37:57+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (sweick@aol.com)


In article <46lqcvg9mp25mvs59ffscg33uat8eb98jh@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: > >On 22 May 2003 05:26:18 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > >:In article <ltblcv4qu1bprs8cvcjg2tnesb7ejhqhle@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal >:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >: >:>On 20 May 2003 01:55:54 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: >:> >:>:In article <jgqicvc2r5h8hpmhqh4u62gg79gmv496lc@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal >:>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: >:>: >:>:>On 19 May 2003 03:12:33 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: >:>:So when did DG know he was going to be the showrunner >:>:on that other show? >:> >:>With the understated yet sensitive way Fox goes about things? He had >:>to at least see the writing on the wall when Noxon and Minear got >:>those five-year deals with Fox and he didn't. >: >:Namely, in plenty of time to leave them high and dry? > >But Greenwalt also claims to have been in on advising the gang this >season. Surely all they needed to do was ask. And why are all these >intelligent people trying to take credit for this past season? They want to fool enough of us into thinking they'll actually be working on it so they get some money from being listed as a consultant for a couple more seasons? >:Weird theory, ME likes playing games with itself. The writers >:write up some of the most untenable storylines and then >:leave it to others to clean up. Then they reverse it so the first >:has to clean up the second's untenable. > >Basing all their decisions on 'wouldn't it be cool if...' is a simpler >explanation. Yeah, but it doesn't explain why they didn't bother with easy ways out of stuff. WIBCI explains wanting Angelus. WIBCI the beast. WIBCI explains Cordelius. But an easy way to handle it all would have been that Cordelius needed Chuckles to set certain things up, but didn't want a rock headed Lava Demon running around mucking up the works. Thus when they took Angel's soul out, instead of just keeping it, us it as a bargaining chip to get Angelus to kill Rockhead, with the weapon it made for Cordelius. Angelus gets the soul thing, Cordelius still fights Willow, everything works out better (fanwanking that Cordelius wasn't allowed to kill Rockhead for whatever huggermugger they want). One idiotic plothole eliminated. >:>:And here I though I had made the great sequel to Provider. >:> >:>In the sense that "Provider" also was not rooted in reality, it was a >:>good sequel to "Provider." >: >:Thanks. > >You're welcome? Hey, I hit what I aimed for. >:>Joey will be playing Cordelia. >: >:Couple seasons back, maybe. The girl looks slagged now. >: >:What happened? Or don't I wanna know? > >Dunno. But then SMG was looking a little rough around the edges last >Tuesday, so maybe it's a thing that happens after you've been on TV >for six or seven years. Then explain CC. Not looking that way after seven. >They do tend to rely more heavily on them than most. Though I gather >from here on out, the guys at Fox and the WB will be providing all the >fanwanking necessary. So now money == fanwanking? Does that explain Don Sample or what? :-) >:>Two wrongs make a right? Or is it three lefts... I can never keep that >:>straight. FWIW, I think you're right; they do intend to have the >:>universe adapt to Angel as they did with Buffy. >: >:I hope they at least would get the irony, like TM getting >:that Angel's killing Connor to save him wasn't good. > >Honestly, they may not have even noticed. Maybe that's why Timmy said >he wanted to write the Connor returns episode. At least he gets the irony. Too many aren't getting the irony of Willow activating all the potentials, near and far, with the previous storyline. I'd hope Joss did. >:Well, seeing that Cordy is a more important character, >:yeah, there should be more of an issue. > >Apparently she's not. Though I'll bet if CC were engaged to Hannigan, >Cordy would be a more important character. Must. Not. Saaaaa... Only if they let him watch! OK, now I feel dirty. Yet strangely attracted to a certain visual. And no, not with Joss anywhere near. >Well, it's official; David E. Kelley is a classier guy than Joss. >Who'da thunk it? Michelle Pfieffer? >:>Just the girls. But Emma said not Anya, so not all the girls. >: >:Well, there's only one I'd want, and I'm not expecting to >:see her, cause still a junior. > >Isn't that what that other thread is about? People who have no problem >with Connor getting two years older in three months can't grasp the >idea that ME is going to put him in college or high school according >to their own whim? To be fair, textually it's almost impossible to figure out Connor's age. Holtz looked to be 100 coming back, 40's going in. But yeah, they'll make the ConnorClone whatever age they want him to be. >:But she was shown >:as an annoyance in Disharmony for everyone else in the >:group. She'd be staked on sight by everyone on AI. > >The same pointy stick immunity that affected Spike will encompass his >One Twue Wuv. The Wesleyans and Gunners are in for a long, hard >season. But Gunn will be wearing Suits, and Wes will be not shaving, so all should be right in their worlds. >:>Anyway, getting Harmony to "replace" Cordelia isn't even trying. Man, >:>hard to believe it was just a year ago Joss said Cordelia was >:>indispensable to _Angel_. >: >:I think they'll find she is, the hard way. >: >:Now, again, my contrarian side would say that there is >:a way to get it to work without Cordelia being around, >:but that would mean the writers would have to get it, >:that having Cordelia around was vital for Angel. If this >:season is more about Cordelia, with her not being around, >:than say the past season and a half, then they might >:be able to make it work. > >If they were better writers. But they screwed up Cordelia when she was >on the show, so I have no hope they'll do anything more than two or >three references to her in the first couple of episodes. After that, >you'll never again hear the name mentioned again. If the ratings jump >dramatically, you may never hear her name after the first episode. Hell, I suspect we'll hear her as often as the B word. >:>Gotta say, if I were in CC's place and this move were true, my asking >:>price per episode would have just gone up. >: >:Hey, desperate times... And Lord knows, ME's in for some >:desperate times IMO. > >Very likely. Yet, there may be profitability in reducing _Angel_ to >the lowest common denominator Provider didn't give it to them. Can't get much lower than that. Hell, they had a threesome starting off Carpe Noctem, didn't add much. >:That scene didn't even work as a decent parody of Surprise/Innocence, >:which it really could have been. > >I can't see it. A supernaturally strong teen having sex with an older partner and the partner turns evil? Problem was, it was evil already in Cordelius, but they could have played on it. >:But I'm a fanboy! I WANT MY CORDY! So I'm gonna rant, >:rave, and act, well, like I normally do on the net. >: >:I'm gonna sit in the corner and pout. > >At this point, I'd say that's as effective a way to get CC back as >any. I think there's a better chance that Pruitt will be back before >CC is. Yeah, really. BTW, have a great summer. (See, I cared.) Gotta get away from here before I get real cranky. I'll be back in the fall. Maybe. Stephen Weick This is LeBronLand, this is LeBronTeam, this is LeBronTown, and I've got to say...ohohohoh, this is LeBronLand!

2003-05-23 21:57:39+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 23 May 2003 17:37:57 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :In article <46lqcvg9mp25mvs59ffscg33uat8eb98jh@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: : :> :>On 22 May 2003 05:26:18 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :> :>:In article <ltblcv4qu1bprs8cvcjg2tnesb7ejhqhle@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: :>: :>:>On 20 May 2003 01:55:54 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :>:> :>:>:In article <jgqicvc2r5h8hpmhqh4u62gg79gmv496lc@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal :>:>:<tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: :>:>: :>But Greenwalt also claims to have been in on advising the gang this :>season. Surely all they needed to do was ask. And why are all these :>intelligent people trying to take credit for this past season? : :They want to fool enough of us into thinking they'll actually :be working on it so they get some money from being listed :as a consultant for a couple more seasons? Minear is now talking like he's washing his hands of anything _Angel_ related, Consulting Producer credit or not. And now that _Jake 2.0_ is up against _Angel_, I suspect Greenwalt will be scarce as well. Or the answer to my question is contained within the question. :>Basing all their decisions on 'wouldn't it be cool if...' is a simpler :>explanation. : :Yeah, but it doesn't explain why they didn't bother with easy :ways out of stuff. 'Cause the easy ways out weren't cool enough. :>:>In the sense that "Provider" also was not rooted in reality, it was a :>:>good sequel to "Provider." :>: :>:Thanks. :> :>You're welcome? : :Hey, I hit what I aimed for. Okay then, you're welcome. Stated without equivocation. :>:What happened? Or don't I wanna know? :> :>Dunno. But then SMG was looking a little rough around the edges last :>Tuesday, so maybe it's a thing that happens after you've been on TV :>for six or seven years. : :Then explain CC. Not looking that way after seven. What Mark Jones said. :>They do tend to rely more heavily on them than most. Though I gather :>from here on out, the guys at Fox and the WB will be providing all the :>fanwanking necessary. : :So now money == fanwanking? : :Does that explain Don Sample or what? :-) He's a Fox executive? That would explain a lot. :>Honestly, they may not have even noticed. Maybe that's why Timmy said :>he wanted to write the Connor returns episode. : :At least he gets the irony. Too many aren't getting :the irony of Willow activating all the potentials, near :and far, with the previous storyline. I'd hope Joss did. Oh, I doubt the thought crossed Joss's mind, even though he wrote the scene where Buffy offers the potentials the choice. I sure thinks that's just the coolest thing in the world, or else we wouldn't have gotten the scenes of all those women/girls getting Slayered-up just when they needed the Slayer power. :>Well, it's official; David E. Kelley is a classier guy than Joss. :>Who'da thunk it? : :Michelle Pfieffer? Don't remind me. :>Isn't that what that other thread is about? People who have no problem :>with Connor getting two years older in three months can't grasp the :>idea that ME is going to put him in college or high school according :>to their own whim? : :To be fair, textually it's almost impossible to figure out Connor's age. :Holtz looked to be 100 coming back, 40's going in. Then don't assign him an age at all; no one's ever said how old Kennedy is. And why bother if Cordy was evil anyway? :But yeah, they'll make the ConnorClone whatever age they want :him to be. Again, I suspect they intended to have Angel pay for Cordelia's acting classes at UCLA where she'd meet this freakish, slightly androgynous geek named "Stephen" and fall madly in love with him. That way, they could have Connor come back without resetting their reset button. Wow, they're screwed now. I wish I could feel sorry for them. :>The same pointy stick immunity that affected Spike will encompass his :>One Twue Wuv. The Wesleyans and Gunners are in for a long, hard :>season. : :But Gunn will be wearing Suits, and Wes will be not shaving, so :all should be right in their worlds. Yeah. I forget the story is a lesser consideration. :>If the ratings jump :>dramatically, you may never hear her name after the first episode. : :Hell, I suspect we'll hear her as often as the B word. Not even that much. :A supernaturally strong teen having sex with an older :partner and the partner turns evil? Problem was, :it was evil already in Cordelius, but they could have :played on it. Not seeing the parody part. :BTW, have a great summer. (See, I cared.) Okay; you too. :Gotta get away from here before I get real cranky. : :I'll be back in the fall. Maybe. Well then, I wasted my time answering this. I don't think I'll be back in the fall, but you never know. Terry

2003-05-24 08:41:05+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Niall Harrison <sax@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>)


Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote: > On 23 May 2003 17:37:57 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > :Gotta get away from here before I get real cranky. > : > :I'll be back in the fall. Maybe. > > Well then, I wasted my time answering this. I don't think I'll be back > in the fall, but you never know. You guys'll be missed if you don't come back. You know that, right? Niall -- Verbing weirds language.

2003-05-24 21:15:52+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"Niall Harrison" <sax@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message news:1053765665.573985@urchin.earth.li... > Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote: > > On 23 May 2003 17:37:57 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > > > > :Gotta get away from here before I get real cranky. > > : > > :I'll be back in the fall. Maybe. > > > > Well then, I wasted my time answering this. I don't think I'll be back > > in the fall, but you never know. > > You guys'll be missed if you don't come back. You know that, right? What he said. Plus there will be no one left to slash. -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-05-25 03:31:30+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 24 May 2003 08:41:05 GMT, Niall Harrison <sax@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> wrote: :You guys'll be missed if you don't come back. You know that, right? Do now, and thanks. There's a more than few of you guys I'd miss too. But unless you think there's a real need for ata's own version of David Sueme, it'd better that I go before I got thrown out. Or killfiled out. (And I really need to get out of here before Tuesday.) "Always leave 'em wanting more." Terry P.S., ten bucks says Stephen will be back in the fall. I'm leaning more towards seeing what Greenwalt's new series can do for me.

2003-05-25 03:33:11+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On Sat, 24 May 2003 21:15:52 GMT, "Linda" <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com> wrote: :Plus there will be no one left to slash. Wesley, Angel, Gunn, and Spike on the same show with no hot women anywhere in sight, and you can't think of anyone to slash? Terry

2003-05-25 04:02:39+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"Terry McNeal" <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:f8e0dvcgne5numoegnu9s8v5m87qitfc9d@4ax.com... > On Sat, 24 May 2003 21:15:52 GMT, "Linda" > <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com> wrote: > > :Plus there will be no one left to slash. > > Wesley, Angel, Gunn, and Spike on the same show with no hot women > anywhere in sight, and you can't think of anyone to slash? But they don't post here! -- Best regards, Linda Mmmmmm......Angel/Giles

2003-06-06 18:11:56+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply)


Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: : I ask again, how stupid does ME think we are? Aside from that 'still : watching, ain'tcha?' aspect? Heh. It is the enabling aspect from which all other stupid aspects flow. -Micky

2003-06-06 18:16:44+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply)


sweick@aol.com (SWeick) writes: : In article <ltblcv4qu1bprs8cvcjg2tnesb7ejhqhle@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal : <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: :: On 20 May 2003 01:55:54 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: ::: Still aren't there another dozen Austin Powers to do? :: :: After the last Austin Powers? Perhaps not. : : I still haven't seen the first two. After Casino Royal, what more : could a parody do? _Our Man Flint_. -Micky

2003-06-06 18:26:27+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply)


Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: : On 23 May 2003 17:37:57 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :: I'll be back in the fall. Maybe. : : Well then, I wasted my time answering this. I guess it's one of those risks that a person runs. :-P -Micky

2003-06-06 18:28:19+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply)


Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: : P.S., ten bucks says Stephen will be back in the fall. I'm leaning : more towards seeing what Greenwalt's new series can do for me. I already know what his last series did for me: left me frustrated and hanging. -Micky

2003-06-06 20:53:16-07:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (reldevik@usa.net)


MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote in message news:<bbqmg3$2kj$4@pcls4.std.com>... > Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: > > : P.S., ten bucks says Stephen will be back in the fall. I'm leaning > : more towards seeing what Greenwalt's new series can do for me. > > I already know what his last series did for me: left me frustrated and > hanging. --Same here. "Miracles" had a lot of potential, but as in the case of "Firefly," the network just didn't give it a chance. What did you think of "Firefly," Micky? Clairel

2003-06-07 05:40:41+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply wrote in article <bbqlqc$2kj$2@pcls4.std.com>... > sweick@aol.com (SWeick) writes: > > : In article <ltblcv4qu1bprs8cvcjg2tnesb7ejhqhle@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal > : <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: > > :: On 20 May 2003 01:55:54 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > > ::: Still aren't there another dozen Austin Powers to do? > :: > :: After the last Austin Powers? Perhaps not. > : > : I still haven't seen the first two. After Casino Royal, what more > : could a parody do? > > _Our Man Flint_. > I enjoyed that movie, but it feels dated now. I thought The President's Analyst was wonderful, and I think it holds up better, too. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-06-10 17:10:02+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (billones@radix.net)


In article <bbqlhc$2kj$1@pcls4.std.com>, Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote: >Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: Terry McNeal has a new email address? No wonder I wasn't seeing any posts flagged. Thanks, Micky :) -- Jeremy Billones "I don't get called. I'm not the called type. I take messages for my boss -- *he* gets called."

2003-06-10 17:13:19+00:00 - Re: ANGEL RENEWED - GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! - (billones@radix.net)


In article <bbqmg3$2kj$4@pcls4.std.com>, Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote: >Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes: > >: P.S., ten bucks says Stephen will be back in the fall. I'm leaning >: more towards seeing what Greenwalt's new series can do for me. > >I already know what his last series did for me: left me frustrated and >hanging. Slow... hanging... curve :) I've gotten to the point where I view any new TV series as a series of short stories. I saw 2 eps of Miracles, and saw two nice short stories. Seeing a third would have been a bonus, but I never got to. (Yes, I missed an ep or two. Ah well.) Which reminds me, I have a volume of Hammett I need to get back to... -- Jeremy Billones "I don't get called. I'm not the called type. I take messages for my boss -- *he* gets called."