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2003-05-10 09:24:14-07:00 - Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (Hank Tiffany <davidt@cet.com>)


N o t s u r e b u t a l i t t l e s p a c e h e r e , j u s t f o r l u c k . OK, so Wes can't get his sweetie off the hook by burning her contract. BUT he, or at least his good buddy Angel, is now the owner of all the assets of the LA branch of W&H. So why can't the AI gang just *release* Lilah from her contract? If they own the contract, they can declare it null & void (assuming both parties agree), right? Hank -- Hitler, he only had one ball/Goering, had two but they were small Himmler, was very simmlar/But poor old Goebbels had no balls at all

2003-05-10 13:42:35-07:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (slapfish <slapfish@yahoo.com>)


Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:ztbva.66006$4P1.5953512@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > > "Hank Tiffany" <davidt@cet.com> wrote in message > news:Pine.LNX.4.21.0305100919340.1213-100000@davidt... > > N > > o > > t > > > > s > > u > > r > > e > > > > b > > u > > t > > > > a > > > > l > > i > > t > > t > > l > > e > > > > s > > p > > a > > c > > e > > > > h > > e > > r > > e > > , > > > > j > > u > > s > > t > > > > f > > o > > r > > > > l > > u > > c > > k > > . > > > > > Angel has complete control of the LA division of Wolfram & Hart, but as we > have seen before, there is a much larger overall firm that Angel has no say > in. Which begs the question. Why in Gods name would they put themselves in a position where this "larger firm" would have power over them? Why would the AI that we know even begin to consider such a thing?

2003-05-10 16:38:06-07:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (slapfish <slapfish@yahoo.com>)


Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ajrqbvc2h93dglnqertr2k1goibefnrti8@4ax.com... > On Sat, 10 May 2003 09:24:14 -0700, Hank Tiffany <davidt@cet.com> > wrote: > > :N > :o > :t > : > :s > :u > :r > :e > : > :b > :u > :t > : > :a > : > :l > :i > :t > :t > :l > :e > : > :s > :p > :a > :c > :e > : > :h > :e > :r > :e > :, > : > :j > :u > :s > :t > : > :f > :o > :r > : > :l > :u > :c > :k > :. > : > : > It's just the first of what will no doubt be many signs that despite > what they were told, Angel and company are not running W&H. > Of course not. AND unless they have all had their brains removed they have to know this too. So why would they do this at all? If they go into next season and anyone of them expresses surprise, anger or outrage at having been duped by WH I think I will shoot my TV. This kind of reminds me how I felt when they ended Buffy by introducing Dawn as her sister that never existed before. I kinda got used to Dawn, but it took a while. I might be able to accept this move, but it's going to take some DAMN good writing (something that's been in short supply lately) to make it work. grumble grumble grumble

2003-05-10 18:11:36+00:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, davidt@cet.com wrote in article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0305100919340.1213-100000@davidt>... > N > o > t > > s > u > r > e > > b > u > t > > a > > l > i > t > t > l > e > > s > p > a > c > e > > h > e > r > e > , > > j > u > s > t > > f > o > r > > l > u > c > k > . > > > OK, so Wes can't get his sweetie off the hook by burning her > contract. BUT he, or at least his good buddy Angel, is now > the owner of all the assets of the LA branch of W&H. So > why can't the AI gang just *release* Lilah from her contract? > If they own the contract, they can declare it null & void > (assuming both parties agree), right? > Lilah's deal is with the senior partners, and Angel & Co. have no powers over them. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-10 18:24:31+00:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"Hank Tiffany" <davidt@cet.com> wrote in message news:Pine.LNX.4.21.0305100919340.1213-100000@davidt... > N > o > t > > s > u > r > e > > b > u > t > > a > > l > i > t > t > l > e > > s > p > a > c > e > > h > e > r > e > , > > j > u > s > t > > f > o > r > > l > u > c > k > . > > > OK, so Wes can't get his sweetie off the hook by burning her > contract. BUT he, or at least his good buddy Angel, is now > the owner of all the assets of the LA branch of W&H. So > why can't the AI gang just *release* Lilah from her contract? > If they own the contract, they can declare it null & void > (assuming both parties agree), right? > > Hank Angel has complete control of the LA division of Wolfram & Hart, but as we have seen before, there is a much larger overall firm that Angel has no say in.

2003-05-10 21:10:04-07:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - ("David \"The Republican\" Walker" <animex@david.com>)


On Sat, 10 May 2003 22:07:49 GMT, Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: >Previously on alt.tv.angel, slapfish@yahoo.com wrote in article ><vbqor55jne8v21@corp.supernews.com>... >> >> Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message >> news:ztbva.66006$4P1.5953512@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net... >> > >> > "Hank Tiffany" <davidt@cet.com> wrote in message >> > news:Pine.LNX.4.21.0305100919340.1213-100000@davidt... >> > > N >> > > o >> > > t >> > > >> > > s >> > > u >> > > r >> > > e >> > > >> > > b >> > > u >> > > t >> > > >> > > a >> > > >> > > l >> > > i >> > > t >> > > t >> > > l >> > > e >> > > >> > > s >> > > p >> > > a >> > > c >> > > e >> > > >> > > h >> > > e >> > > r >> > > e >> > > , >> > > >> > > j >> > > u >> > > s >> > > t >> > > >> > > f >> > > o >> > > r >> > > >> > > l >> > > u >> > > c >> > > k >> > > . >> > > >> > > > Wes gets the last laugh over the Council of Watchers What council? There all gone.

2003-05-10 21:27:24+00:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On Sat, 10 May 2003 09:24:14 -0700, Hank Tiffany <davidt@cet.com> wrote: :N :o :t : :s :u :r :e : :b :u :t : :a : :l :i :t :t :l :e : :s :p :a :c :e : :h :e :r :e :, : :j :u :s :t : :f :o :r : :l :u :c :k :. : : :OK, so Wes can't get his sweetie off the hook by burning her :contract. BUT he, or at least his good buddy Angel, is now :the owner of all the assets of the LA branch of W&H. So :why can't the AI gang just *release* Lilah from her contract? It's just the first of what will no doubt be many signs that despite what they were told, Angel and company are not running W&H. Terry

2003-05-10 22:07:49+00:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, slapfish@yahoo.com wrote in article <vbqor55jne8v21@corp.supernews.com>... > > Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:ztbva.66006$4P1.5953512@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > > > > "Hank Tiffany" <davidt@cet.com> wrote in message > > news:Pine.LNX.4.21.0305100919340.1213-100000@davidt... > > > N > > > o > > > t > > > > > > s > > > u > > > r > > > e > > > > > > b > > > u > > > t > > > > > > a > > > > > > l > > > i > > > t > > > t > > > l > > > e > > > > > > s > > > p > > > a > > > c > > > e > > > > > > h > > > e > > > r > > > e > > > , > > > > > > j > > > u > > > s > > > t > > > > > > f > > > o > > > r > > > > > > l > > > u > > > c > > > k > > > . > > > > > > > > Angel has complete control of the LA division of Wolfram & Hart, but as we > > have seen before, there is a much larger overall firm that Angel has no > say > > in. > > Which begs the question. Why in Gods name would they put themselves in a > position where this "larger firm" would have power over them? Why would the > AI that we know even begin to consider such a thing? > > > Angel & Co. recognized the irony in having defeated Jasmine they had made the world safe for forces of evil from a manifestation of one of the power that be. That demoralized them enough that they had to consider another irony: how can you help the hopeless when you are yourself in an hopeless predicament. That gave the senior partners an entree so that they could negotiate to each of their individual predilections. For Charles and Lorne, I think it is the enticement of power. Lorne becomes a real show business player and Charles power is, well, more mystical than muscular. And for Wes and Fred, access to knowledge beckons. Wes gets the last laugh over the Council of Watchers and Fred gets access to resources above and beyond any mere university lab. Angel made the executive decision because the senior partners could fix an insolvable problem. I think they are circumspect enough to know they are dancing with the devil. But then they have been doing that since they came together as a team. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-11 17:47:57-04:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com>)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: >Previously on alt.tv.angel, arromdee@violet.rahul.net wrote in article ><b9m45q$i55$2@blue.rahul.net>... >[elided] >> >> If AI were *really* running W&H, even just the LA branch, they should >> immediately shut down any evil operations they can, stake any vampires or >> other EETs that W&H had placed in high positions, go public with any blackmail >> material that W&H is using to force people to do what they want (maybe even >> giving people their own files), etc. In other words, they should do just >[elided] > >Wolfram & Hart has always been antithetical to vampires. Well, almost >always. They had one as their client that we all saw in the premier >episode. But over time we have seen that Wolfram & Hart have had >vampire alarms in their office and have taken extreme measures when >vampires have entered unexpectedly into their midst. Weren't those measures a result of Angel and what happened to that vampire client? Ken

2003-05-11 18:18:34+00:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (arromdee@violet.rahul.net)


In article <vbr35jn48oq67c@corp.supernews.com>, slapfish <slapfish@yahoo.com> wrote: >> It's just the first of what will no doubt be many signs that despite >> what they were told, Angel and company are not running W&H. >Of course not. AND unless they have all had their brains removed they have >to know this too. So why would they do this at all? If they go into next >season and anyone of them expresses surprise, anger or outrage at having >been duped by WH I think I will shoot my TV. If AI were *really* running W&H, even just the LA branch, they should immediately shut down any evil operations they can, stake any vampires or other EETs that W&H had placed in high positions, go public with any blackmail material that W&H is using to force people to do what they want (maybe even giving people their own files), etc. In other words, they should do just what was done when East Germany collapsed and the West took over, or even what the Americans in Iraq may or may not do, but would do if they were smart. LA could sleep a lot easier if they used W&H's files to do the equivalent of rooting out all the Fedayeen. And sell 11 of the 12 limos. And Fred can take all the scientific results from W&H's private lab, scan them, and post them to the Internet. If they can't do that, they're not in control of W&H. Of course, they will probably just occasionally ask them to hunt down some rogue demons and let W&H's day-to-day operations go unhindered. This is a prime jump-the-shark episode. Because not only did it use two really bad ideas (the other one is Connor's new history), but the only way to continue from here is downhill. -- Ken Arromdee / arromdee@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee "There are some corners of the universe that have bred the most terrible things, things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be fought." --Dr. Who, "The Moonbase"

2003-05-11 21:08:48+00:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, arromdee@violet.rahul.net wrote in article <b9m45q$i55$2@blue.rahul.net>... [elided] > > If AI were *really* running W&H, even just the LA branch, they should > immediately shut down any evil operations they can, stake any vampires or > other EETs that W&H had placed in high positions, go public with any blackmail > material that W&H is using to force people to do what they want (maybe even > giving people their own files), etc. In other words, they should do just [elided] Wolfram & Hart has always been antithetical to vampires. Well, almost always. They had one as their client that we all saw in the premier episode. But over time we have seen that Wolfram & Hart have had vampire alarms in their office and have taken extreme measures when vampires have entered unexpectedly into their midst. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-12 03:30:03-07:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (kenm47@ix.netcom.com)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.1928ba415b9be9ac98a1b6@netnews.attbi.com>... > Previously on alt.tv.angel, KenM47@ix.netcom.com wrote in article > <96htbv4er46li0rkhootrtfpqurqh7u7m6@4ax.com>... > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > > > > >Previously on alt.tv.angel, arromdee@violet.rahul.net wrote in article > > ><b9m45q$i55$2@blue.rahul.net>... > > >[elided] > > >> > > >> If AI were *really* running W&H, even just the LA branch, they should > > >> immediately shut down any evil operations they can, stake any vampires or > > >> other EETs that W&H had placed in high positions, go public with any blackmail > > >> material that W&H is using to force people to do what they want (maybe even > > >> giving people their own files), etc. In other words, they should do just > > >[elided] > > > > > >Wolfram & Hart has always been antithetical to vampires. Well, almost > > >always. They had one as their client that we all saw in the premier > > >episode. But over time we have seen that Wolfram & Hart have had > > >vampire alarms in their office and have taken extreme measures when > > >vampires have entered unexpectedly into their midst. > > > > Weren't those measures a result of Angel and what happened to that > > vampire client? > > > > My recollection of season one is that Wolfram & Hart's anti-vampire > defenses were in place when Angel first visited the firm. Not that it > mattered since Angel <em>always</em> found a work around. Anyway, Angel > visits Wolfram & Hart for the first time in "Five by Five." Here is > what Lindsey says when the meet in his office: > > Lindsey: "You know a vampire can't walk in here without us knowing it. > We have a highly sophisticated security system, spent a fortune on > mystical barriers and such. Nice to know our investment paid off." > Angel grabs the security guard coming at him with his gun drawn and > slams him down on the table, knocking him out. > Angel: "I think it was a waste of money myself." > > Waste of money, indeed. We see the extent of their defenses with the > vampire sensitive shamans in "Blind Date." That is also the episode > where Gunn helps Angel out by tossing a vampire into the lobby of the > law office building as a distraction for Angel. The guards are armed > with wooden stakes. Wolfram & Hart had a lot of respect for Angel, but > I think the precautions described are considerable for a single foe. > > As for Russell Winters, the vampire industrialist in "City of...," I > thought Angel tossed him out the window of Winter's office and not > Wolfram & Hart. Didn't Lindsey phone home to alert the firm to a new > player? If Lindsey was at his own office I do not think he would have > used a mobile phone to make the call. Your memory here sounds better than mine. Been a while since I've watched "City of..." Ken

2003-05-12 03:52:07+00:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, KenM47@ix.netcom.com wrote in article <96htbv4er46li0rkhootrtfpqurqh7u7m6@4ax.com>... > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > > >Previously on alt.tv.angel, arromdee@violet.rahul.net wrote in article > ><b9m45q$i55$2@blue.rahul.net>... > >[elided] > >> > >> If AI were *really* running W&H, even just the LA branch, they should > >> immediately shut down any evil operations they can, stake any vampires or > >> other EETs that W&H had placed in high positions, go public with any blackmail > >> material that W&H is using to force people to do what they want (maybe even > >> giving people their own files), etc. In other words, they should do just > >[elided] > > > >Wolfram & Hart has always been antithetical to vampires. Well, almost > >always. They had one as their client that we all saw in the premier > >episode. But over time we have seen that Wolfram & Hart have had > >vampire alarms in their office and have taken extreme measures when > >vampires have entered unexpectedly into their midst. > > Weren't those measures a result of Angel and what happened to that > vampire client? > My recollection of season one is that Wolfram & Hart's anti-vampire defenses were in place when Angel first visited the firm. Not that it mattered since Angel <em>always</em> found a work around. Anyway, Angel visits Wolfram & Hart for the first time in "Five by Five." Here is what Lindsey says when the meet in his office: Lindsey: "You know a vampire can't walk in here without us knowing it. We have a highly sophisticated security system, spent a fortune on mystical barriers and such. Nice to know our investment paid off." Angel grabs the security guard coming at him with his gun drawn and slams him down on the table, knocking him out. Angel: "I think it was a waste of money myself." Waste of money, indeed. We see the extent of their defenses with the vampire sensitive shamans in "Blind Date." That is also the episode where Gunn helps Angel out by tossing a vampire into the lobby of the law office building as a distraction for Angel. The guards are armed with wooden stakes. Wolfram & Hart had a lot of respect for Angel, but I think the precautions described are considerable for a single foe. As for Russell Winters, the vampire industrialist in "City of...," I thought Angel tossed him out the window of Winter's office and not Wolfram & Hart. Didn't Lindsey phone home to alert the firm to a new player? If Lindsey was at his own office I do not think he would have used a mobile phone to make the call. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-12 04:24:16+00:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (rsvp133@aol.com)


>So >:why can't the AI gang just *release* Lilah from her contract? > >It's just the first of what will no doubt be many signs that despite >what they were told, Angel and company are not running W&H. > They're not running W&H, just the LA branch. Wolfram & Hart is a much larger organization, thus Lilah's contract is with the the Senior Partners, not just the LA branch. Which makes me wonder just who Angel & Co. will be answering *to.*

2003-05-12 05:55:10+00:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (Bill Bickel <billbick@optonline.com>)


"Rsvp133" <rsvp133@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030512002416.12825.00000227@mb-m27.aol.com... > >So > >:why can't the AI gang just *release* Lilah from her contract? > > > >It's just the first of what will no doubt be many signs that despite > >what they were told, Angel and company are not running W&H. > > > > They're not running W&H, just the LA branch. Wolfram & Hart is a much larger > organization, thus Lilah's contract is with the the Senior Partners, not just > the LA branch. Then what I'm wondering is... Why was the contract THERE? Bill Bickel http://www.comicsidontunderstand.com http://www.missing-kids.us http://www.Scott-Peterson-Trial.com

2003-05-12 06:27:05+00:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, billbick@optonline.com wrote in article <2HGva.104396$AG6.17619322@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>... > > "Rsvp133" <rsvp133@aol.com> wrote in message > news:20030512002416.12825.00000227@mb-m27.aol.com... > > >So > > >:why can't the AI gang just *release* Lilah from her contract? > > > > > >It's just the first of what will no doubt be many signs that despite > > >what they were told, Angel and company are not running W&H. > > > > > > > They're not running W&H, just the LA branch. Wolfram & Hart is a much > larger > > organization, thus Lilah's contract is with the the Senior Partners, not > just > > the LA branch. > > Then what I'm wondering is... Why was the contract THERE? > For dramatic purpose it had to be there. It would not have been as meaningful a scene if, on burning the contract, Lilah told Wes it was for naught since it was "a photocopy and not an original." Since the senior partners work in mysterious ways, I would not get hung up on paperwork issues if I were you. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-12 18:29:34+00:00 - Re: Why can't Wes just... (spoilers for home, maybe) - (Bill Bickel <billbick@optonline.com>)


"Growltiger" <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:MPG.1928de971b451c0198a1c2@netnews.attbi.com... > Previously on alt.tv.angel, billbick@optonline.com wrote in article > <2HGva.104396$AG6.17619322@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>... > > > > "Rsvp133" <rsvp133@aol.com> wrote in message > > news:20030512002416.12825.00000227@mb-m27.aol.com... > > > >So > > > >:why can't the AI gang just *release* Lilah from her contract? > > > > > > > >It's just the first of what will no doubt be many signs that despite > > > >what they were told, Angel and company are not running W&H. > > > > > > > > > > They're not running W&H, just the LA branch. Wolfram & Hart is a much > > larger > > > organization, thus Lilah's contract is with the the Senior Partners, not > > just > > > the LA branch. > > > > Then what I'm wondering is... Why was the contract THERE? > > > > For dramatic purpose it had to be there. It would not have been as > meaningful a scene if, on burning the contract, Lilah told Wes it was > for naught since it was "a photocopy and not an original." Since the > senior partners work in mysterious ways, I would not get hung up on > paperwork issues if I were you. There's a difference between being "hung up" on an issue and questioning an illogical plot devise that exists onlky for "dramatic effect". Bill Bickel http://www.comicsidontunderstand.com http://www.lawsuitoftheweek.com http://www.missing-kids.us > -- > Be seeing you, > Growltiger