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2004-03-03 22:25:09-08:00 - Re: I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - (nospam@nospam.com)


In article <104dgav8kff62ce@corp.supernews.com>, Joseph S. Powell, III <NoSpam@nospam.net> wrote: > In the spiritual sense, that is........ > It makes no sense to say that a muderous vampire's soul can be tormented in > a demon dimension for hundreds of relative years, but it wasn't just Angel's soul that was sent to that dimension. He was alive and in the flesh when it happened. Just like Connor. Just like in season 3 when Buffy was in LA.

2004-03-03 23:39:57-06:00 - I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - ("Joseph S. Powell, III" <NoSpam@nospam.net>)


In the spiritual sense, that is........ It makes no sense to say that a muderous vampire's soul can be tormented in a demon dimension for hundreds of relative years, but if some creature such as Illyra (sp?) wants to take over a human body that the soul of the human will just get consumed and cease to exist (which doesn't even happen to the worst murderer). That is B.S.!!! I think the doctor-tech-whatever-the-hell-he-was guy who told that to Gunn was either deceived, had the wrong info, or was lying his ass off! Fred exists somewhere, hell, even if you have to state that she exists in the past, that's still existing in the larger scheme of things, so.............. Awww, forget it, I'm getting too worked up over a character that Amy has done a good job on ......Amy has done an equally good job on Illyra, so why should I complain?

2004-03-04 18:51:23+00:00 - Re: I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - (Larry Caldwell <larryc@teleport.com>)


In article <104dgav8kff62ce@corp.supernews.com>, NoSpam@nospam.net (Joseph S. Powell, III) says... > I think the doctor-tech-whatever-the-hell-he-was guy who told that to Gunn > was either deceived, had the wrong info, or was lying his ass off! > Fred exists somewhere, hell, even if you have to state that she exists in > the past, that's still existing in the larger scheme of things, Yeah, and Illyria has the ability to manipulate time. Oh well, the show's over. Whatever they had planned for Fred, I bet all she gets is a curtain call, if that. -- http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

2004-03-04 18:53:05-05:00 - Re: I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - (nfway <nfw@yahoo.com>)


In article <030320042225094370%nospam@nospam.com>, nospam@nospam.com says... > In article <104dgav8kff62ce@corp.supernews.com>, Joseph S. Powell, III > <NoSpam@nospam.net> wrote: > > > In the spiritual sense, that is........ > > It makes no sense to say that a muderous vampire's soul can be tormented in > > a demon dimension for hundreds of relative years, > > but it wasn't just Angel's soul that was sent to that dimension. He was > alive and in the flesh when it happened. Just like Connor. Just like in > season 3 when Buffy was in LA. > uh, Angel hasn't been "alive" for about 210 years.

2004-03-04 20:34:44-08:00 - Re: I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - (himiko@animail.net)


Larry Caldwell <larryc@teleport.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1ab11a5585b4a53098ad1b@news.west.earthlink.net>... > In article <104dgav8kff62ce@corp.supernews.com>, NoSpam@nospam.net > (Joseph S. Powell, III) says... > > > I think the doctor-tech-whatever-the-hell-he-was guy who told that to Gunn > > was either deceived, had the wrong info, or was lying his ass off! > > Fred exists somewhere, hell, even if you have to state that she exists in > > the past, that's still existing in the larger scheme of things, > > Yeah, and Illyria has the ability to manipulate time. She could get out of that body by reversing it, possibly...she said she was tied to it, but maybe she hasn't thought of reversing time so she never gets into it; OTOH, we don't know if she can do that at all. She doesn't really like being herself in this world, so her cooperation in anything they do is a real possibility. Another possibility is that they will rebuild Fred: memories first, then personality, then a human body (no more carapace), and finally a soul...maybe not Fred's though; maybe just a new human soul such as might be given to a newborn baby. Then poor Wes and the others would have to deal with a Fred who isn't Fred but is Fred. Reminds me of a Moto Hagio manga called A, A Prime about a race of mutants called unicorns. Unicorns were created for deep space; they are very intelligent and have augmented senses, but they are also virtually autistic. One story centers around one of the less autistic specimens who is sent to an isolated outpost in space; in those close quarters, she learns slowly to make friends and finally finds love. Then she is killed in an accident. We find out most of this in flashback as the young man who loved her and her friends await the arrival of her clone who will have only the memories that were encoded before she left for the space station. She arrives as the same withdrawn, cold young woman she was when she first arrived (herself but not herself), and they must deal with that reality. It's a very sadly sweet story. > > Oh well, the show's over. Whatever they had planned for Fred, I bet all > she gets is a curtain call, if that. She got that much at the end of this episode. She'll get more, one way or another. himiko

2004-03-04 21:44:06-05:00 - Re: I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <Xns94A2BF93EE83dansolocomcastnet@63.240.76.16>, Daniel Solomon <dansolo@comcast.net> wrote: > "Joseph S. Powell, III" <NoSpam@nospam.net> wrote in > news:104dgav8kff62ce@corp.supernews.com: > > > In the spiritual sense, that is........ > > It makes no sense to say that a muderous vampire's soul can be > > tormented in a demon dimension for hundreds of relative years, but if > > some creature such as Illyra (sp?) wants to take over a human body > > that the soul of the human will just get consumed and cease to exist > > (which doesn't even happen to the worst murderer). > > That is B.S.!!! > > Illyria is supposed to be an original demon, which would be much more > powerful than a vampire demon. Human souls didn't exist when Illyria > had origially "died" (?), so why would there be any special significance > to them now? The resurrection of Illyria is what consumed Fred's soul. > For the powerful magic that would be required to ressurect a demon like > Illyria, I'm not at all suprised. Humans existed back in Illyria's time. It's just that they were barely worthy of being noticed. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2004-03-04 21:55:51-08:00 - Re: I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


"Joseph S. Powell, III" <NoSpam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:<104dgav8kff62ce@corp.supernews.com>... > In the spiritual sense, that is........ > It makes no sense to say that a muderous vampire's soul can be tormented in > a demon dimension for hundreds of relative years, but if some creature such > as Illyra (sp?) wants to take over a human body that the soul of the human > will just get consumed and cease to exist (which doesn't even happen to the > worst murderer). ---- Well, the point with Angelus is that when he killed he DID NOT have a soul, Angelus got the soul back and became Angel once again just before Buffy had to send him to hell. A human's soul is about redemption. If you have one even the worst humans can be redemmed by God and/or if you prefer The Powers That Be. It is Evil that destroys men's souls and Illyra is an evil entity, so it does make sense that it would destroy a soul in order to occupy this plane. > > That is B.S.!!! > I think the doctor-tech-whatever-the-hell-he-was guy who told that to Gunn > was either deceived, had the wrong info, or was lying his ass off! > Fred exists somewhere, hell, even if you have to state that she exists in > the past, that's still existing in the larger scheme of things, > so.............. > Awww, forget it, I'm getting too worked up over a character that Amy has > done a good job on ......Amy has done an equally good job on Illyra, so why > should I complain? ----- Yeah, I know it is upsetting to a lot of people but it looks like that Winifred is gone but good. ME really smacked us over the head repeatedly with that point. Amy soul, her true being, is gone for good, and therefore there is no returning for her, even mystically. ----->Hunter

2004-03-04 23:04:48-05:00 - Re: I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - (nfway <nfw@yahoo.com>)


In article <040320042144061625%dsample@synapse.net>, dsample@synapse.net says... > In article <Xns94A2BF93EE83dansolocomcastnet@63.240.76.16>, Daniel > Solomon <dansolo@comcast.net> wrote: > > > "Joseph S. Powell, III" <NoSpam@nospam.net> wrote in > > news:104dgav8kff62ce@corp.supernews.com: > > > > > In the spiritual sense, that is........ > > > It makes no sense to say that a muderous vampire's soul can be > > > tormented in a demon dimension for hundreds of relative years, but if > > > some creature such as Illyra (sp?) wants to take over a human body > > > that the soul of the human will just get consumed and cease to exist > > > (which doesn't even happen to the worst murderer). > > > That is B.S.!!! > > > > Illyria is supposed to be an original demon, which would be much more > > powerful than a vampire demon. Human souls didn't exist when Illyria > > had origially "died" (?), so why would there be any special significance > > to them now? The resurrection of Illyria is what consumed Fred's soul. > > For the powerful magic that would be required to ressurect a demon like > > Illyria, I'm not at all suprised. > > Humans existed back in Illyria's time. It's just that they were barely > worthy of being noticed. > > for some, nothing has changed: many still are barely worthy of notice. The WB management comes to mind....

2004-03-05 00:49:55+00:00 - Re: I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - (Daniel Solomon <dansolo@comcast.net>)


"Joseph S. Powell, III" <NoSpam@nospam.net> wrote in news:104dgav8kff62ce@corp.supernews.com: > In the spiritual sense, that is........ > It makes no sense to say that a muderous vampire's soul can be > tormented in a demon dimension for hundreds of relative years, but if > some creature such as Illyra (sp?) wants to take over a human body > that the soul of the human will just get consumed and cease to exist > (which doesn't even happen to the worst murderer). > That is B.S.!!! Illyria is supposed to be an original demon, which would be much more powerful than a vampire demon. Human souls didn't exist when Illyria had origially "died" (?), so why would there be any special significance to them now? The resurrection of Illyria is what consumed Fred's soul. For the powerful magic that would be required to ressurect a demon like Illyria, I'm not at all suprised. -- Dan Solomon

2004-03-05 22:31:52-05:00 - Re: I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - (nfway <nfw@yahoo.com>)


In article <c2b2gg$i1r$1@blue.rahul.net>, arromdee@violet.rahul.net says... > So, what's to keep them from using a spell to snatch Fred's soul out of the > past at her moment of death? Considering Vampire Willow was snatched > physically, it's not a big stretch. > That's what happens when you try to use logic to explain fantasy shows: we finally get everyone to accept that vampires and daemons are real, little irish girls playing jewish witches cast spells, 24 year old witches regularly pose for FHM, little jewish girls wearing crosses throw 6'4 studs across the room and stake them with pointy sticks, and a 300+ year old hottie pregnant vampiress deliveres her own child by stabbing herself with a pointy stick, and someone has to push it over the edge by trying to convince us that time-travel, mystical time-travel at that (not even the Einsteinian flavor of time-travel), is a possible way to keep Fred from being eternally gone. Especially since everyone knows that magical time-travel requires a pan- dimensional passport!

2004-03-06 03:39:02+00:00 - Re: I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - (KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com>)


nfway <nfw@yahoo.com> wrote: >In article <c2b2gg$i1r$1@blue.rahul.net>, arromdee@violet.rahul.net >says... >> So, what's to keep them from using a spell to snatch Fred's soul out of the >> past at her moment of death? Considering Vampire Willow was snatched >> physically, it's not a big stretch. >> >That's what happens when you try to use logic to explain fantasy shows: >we finally get everyone to accept that vampires and daemons are real, >little irish girls playing jewish witches cast spells, 24 year old >witches regularly pose for FHM, little jewish girls wearing crosses >throw 6'4 studs across the room and stake them with pointy sticks, and a >300+ year old hottie pregnant vampiress deliveres her own child by >stabbing herself with a pointy stick, and someone has to push it over >the edge by trying to convince us that time-travel, mystical time-travel >at that (not even the Einsteinian flavor of time-travel), is a possible >way to keep Fred from being eternally gone. > >Especially since everyone knows that magical time-travel requires a pan- >dimensional passport! Just hold on to your towel. Ken

2004-03-06 11:51:43-05:00 - Re: I don't beleive Fred is really permanenty gone.. - (nfway <nfw@yahoo.com>)


In article <0mhi40p5rbfd5in4pqi2ccljsg960p1fji@4ax.com>, KenM47 @ix.netcom.com says... > nfway <nfw@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >In article <c2b2gg$i1r$1@blue.rahul.net>, arromdee@violet.rahul.net > >says... > >> So, what's to keep them from using a spell to snatch Fred's soul out of the > >> past at her moment of death? Considering Vampire Willow was snatched > >> physically, it's not a big stretch. > >> > >That's what happens when you try to use logic to explain fantasy shows: > >we finally get everyone to accept that vampires and daemons are real, > >little irish girls playing jewish witches cast spells, 24 year old > >witches regularly pose for FHM, little jewish girls wearing crosses > >throw 6'4 studs across the room and stake them with pointy sticks, and a > >300+ year old hottie pregnant vampiress deliveres her own child by > >stabbing herself with a pointy stick, and someone has to push it over > >the edge by trying to convince us that time-travel, mystical time-travel > >at that (not even the Einsteinian flavor of time-travel), is a possible > >way to keep Fred from being eternally gone. > > > >Especially since everyone knows that magical time-travel requires a pan- > >dimensional passport! > > Just hold on to your towel. > > Ken > That's it! Willow sponges up the ethereal residue of Fred's soul's essence with a Brawny paper towel (their commercials claim they soak up anything with one sheet). Later in the episode Willow casts a special spell to wring Fred's soul out of the towel and into a Vessel of Charmin (thats a mystical vessel designed to contain other mortal "essences") that Fred was naievly using to store Q-Tips in her bathroom. Joss then introduces a spin-off reality show coincidentally named "Tru-Calling" (but for other reasons) where the gang travels door-to-door across the country searching for an appropriate body for Fred.