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2004-02-09 10:38:44-08:00 - Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


... how about some of the other from the three nerds. Maybe it's Warren who built those ninja robots? Similar technology.

2004-02-09 12:41:32-06:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Avatar <avatar@donoteventhinkaboutit.com>)


On 9 Feb 2004 10:38:44 -0800, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: >... how about some of the other from the three nerds. > >Maybe it's Warren who built those ninja robots? Similar technology. Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the grief-stricken Lesbian witch. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sooner or later, all of our names wind up on a Post-It. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

2004-02-09 14:21:14-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (adam.f.dolan@guinnessudv.com)


Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > Avatar wrote: > > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the > > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > > Your point being? I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. I just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made me want to reach thru the tv set and slap him.

2004-02-09 14:39:18-05:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 12:41:32 -0600, Avatar <avatar@donoteventhinkaboutit.com> wrote: >On 9 Feb 2004 10:38:44 -0800, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: > >>... how about some of the other from the three nerds. >> >>Maybe it's Warren who built those ninja robots? Similar technology. > >Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the >grief-stricken Lesbian witch. And you think that prevents ME from bringing him back as good as new? You can't have been watching their shows for long :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes)

2004-02-09 14:45:05-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


Avatar <avatar@donoteventhinkaboutit.com> wrote in message news:<a0lf20ljruogramv5uk27sl2h2301fodj6@4ax.com>... > On 9 Feb 2004 10:38:44 -0800, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: > > >... how about some of the other from the three nerds. > > > >Maybe it's Warren who built those ninja robots? Similar technology. > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. All very true. At end the of BtVS season 7, Spike was consumed by flames. All it took was a mystic amulet to bring him back to life. If ME wants to bring Andrew back, all they need to do is use magic. Easy.

2004-02-09 14:51:11-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Jake <wh@ever.com>)


Adam Dolan wrote: > > Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > > Avatar wrote: > > > > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the > > > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > > > > Your point being? > > I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. I > just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made me > want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of course, chicks. But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. And before the Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": "Kill her! Kill her!" Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen.

2004-02-09 17:48:41-05:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (gmm <gmm@yahoo.com>)


In article <5aa58763.0402091038.11c26380@posting.google.com>, igs622001 @yahoo.com says... > ... how about some of the other from the three nerds. > > Maybe it's Warren who built those ninja robots? Similar technology. > yeah, but for fun lets put his skin on backwards and a little too tight in the crotch.

2004-02-09 19:30:20-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (reldevik@usa.net)


Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com>... > Adam Dolan wrote: > > > > Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > > > Avatar wrote: > > > > > > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the > > > > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > > > > > > Your point being? > > > > I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. I > > just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made me > > want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. > > Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got > caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of > course, chicks. > > But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. And before the > Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into > murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": "Kill > her! Kill her!" > > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. --But you're talking about season 6 Andrew. And what you say is valid only if you assume Andrew never made any kind of turnaround in season 7 of BtVS. I think he did. You can see it at the end of Storyteller and in subsequent episodes. He's still too preoccupied with fantasies, but even so he has a new sense of seriousness, and of the sanctity of human life. Plus, he doesn't work for Wolfram & Hart. Clairel

2004-02-09 19:39:32+00:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>)


Avatar wrote: > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. Your point being?

2004-02-09 19:58:45-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Jake <wh@ever.com>)


Clairel wrote: > > Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com>... > > Adam Dolan wrote: > > > > > > Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > > > > Avatar wrote: > > > > > > > > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the > > > > > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > > > > > > > > Your point being? > > > > > > I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. I > > > just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made me > > > want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. > > > > Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got > > caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of > > course, chicks. > > > > But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. And before the > > Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into > > murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": "Kill > > her! Kill her!" > > > > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. > > --But you're talking about season 6 Andrew. And what you say is valid > only if you assume Andrew never made any kind of turnaround in season > 7 of BtVS. I think he did. You can see it at the end of Storyteller > and in subsequent episodes. He's still too preoccupied with > fantasies, but even so he has a new sense of seriousness, and of the > sanctity of human life. > > Plus, he doesn't work for Wolfram & Hart. > > Clairel The way I see it, Warren got exactly what he deserved, Jonathan got more than he deserved and Andrew got nowhere near what he deserved. The little punk should be somebody's butt monkey in maximum security.

2004-02-09 22:41:18-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com>... > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. It's kind of dumb, yeah, but the "most offensive" thing? What about that awful scene towards tne end of BtVS season 7 when Spike was berating the the Scoobies for not following Buffy's orders? That was along the same lines and far more offensive.

2004-02-10 01:36:43-05:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Brother Justin <bro@jus.com>)


"Jake" <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:402856F5.7EAE783C@ever.com... > Clairel wrote: > > > > Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com>... > > > Adam Dolan wrote: > > > > > > > > Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > > > > > Avatar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the > > > > > > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > > > > > > > > > > Your point being? > > > > > > > > I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. I > > > > just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made me > > > > want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. > > > > > > Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got > > > caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of > > > course, chicks. > > > > > > But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. And before the > > > Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into > > > murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": "Kill > > > her! Kill her!" > > > > > > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > > > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. > > > > --But you're talking about season 6 Andrew. And what you say is valid > > only if you assume Andrew never made any kind of turnaround in season > > 7 of BtVS. I think he did. You can see it at the end of Storyteller > > and in subsequent episodes. He's still too preoccupied with > > fantasies, but even so he has a new sense of seriousness, and of the > > sanctity of human life. > > > > Plus, he doesn't work for Wolfram & Hart. > > > > Clairel > > The way I see it, Warren got exactly what he deserved, Jonathan got more > than he deserved and Andrew got nowhere near what he deserved. The > little punk should be somebody's butt monkey in maximum security. So then what does Angel deserve? He killed alot more people then Andrew did... obviously repenting for your sins holds nothing in your eyes so by that right does Angel not deserve to be put to death, or be someones butt monkey?

2004-02-10 04:39:54-06:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Ken from Chicago <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Jake" <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com... > Adam Dolan wrote: > > > > Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > > > Avatar wrote: > > > > > > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the > > > > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > > > > > > Your point being? > > > > I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. I > > just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made me > > want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. > > Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got > caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of > course, chicks. > > But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. And before the > Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into > murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": "Kill > her! Kill her!" > > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. More than someone who tortured and then skinned someone alive? -- Ken from Chicago

2004-02-10 04:44:32-06:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Ken from Chicago <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Brother Justin" <bro@jus.com> wrote in message news:0__Vb.4447$lK.295442@news20.bellglobal.com... > > "Jake" <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:402856F5.7EAE783C@ever.com... > > Clairel wrote: > > > > > > Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com>... > > > > Adam Dolan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message > news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > > > > > > Avatar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by > the > > > > > > > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your point being? > > > > > > > > > > I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. > I > > > > > just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made > me > > > > > want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. > > > > > > > > Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got > > > > caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of > > > > course, chicks. > > > > > > > > But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. And before the > > > > Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into > > > > murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": > "Kill > > > > her! Kill her!" > > > > > > > > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > > > > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. > > > > > > --But you're talking about season 6 Andrew. And what you say is valid > > > only if you assume Andrew never made any kind of turnaround in season > > > 7 of BtVS. I think he did. You can see it at the end of Storyteller > > > and in subsequent episodes. He's still too preoccupied with > > > fantasies, but even so he has a new sense of seriousness, and of the > > > sanctity of human life. > > > > > > Plus, he doesn't work for Wolfram & Hart. > > > > > > Clairel > > > > The way I see it, Warren got exactly what he deserved, Jonathan got more > > than he deserved and Andrew got nowhere near what he deserved. The > > little punk should be somebody's butt monkey in maximum security. > > So then what does Angel deserve? He killed alot more people then Andrew > did... obviously repenting for your sins holds nothing in your eyes so by > that right does Angel not deserve to be put to death, or be someones butt > monkey? That's Angelus. Angelus is different from Angel. Angelus didn't lock a room full of lawyers in with two especially dangerous vampires or sic a hungry demon on a hotel full of scared people or date a minor or unleash a demon on an unsuspecting public resulting in multiple deaths--TWICE. -- Ken from Chicago

2004-02-10 09:19:46-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


Brother Justin wrote: > "Jake" <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:402856F5.7EAE783C@ever.com... > >>Clairel wrote: >> >>>Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com>... >>> >>>>Adam Dolan wrote: >>>> >>>>>Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message > > news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > >>>>>>Avatar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by > > the > >>>>>>>grief-stricken Lesbian witch. >>>>>> >>>>>>Your point being? >>>>> >>>>>I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. > > I > >>>>>just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made > > me > >>>>>want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. >>>> >>>>Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got >>>>caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of >>>>course, chicks. >>>> >>>>But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. And before the >>>>Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into >>>>murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": > > "Kill > >>>>her! Kill her!" >>>> >>>>Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of >>>>good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. >>> >>>--But you're talking about season 6 Andrew. And what you say is valid >>>only if you assume Andrew never made any kind of turnaround in season >>>7 of BtVS. I think he did. You can see it at the end of Storyteller >>>and in subsequent episodes. He's still too preoccupied with >>>fantasies, but even so he has a new sense of seriousness, and of the >>>sanctity of human life. >>> >>>Plus, he doesn't work for Wolfram & Hart. >>> >>>Clairel >> >>The way I see it, Warren got exactly what he deserved, Jonathan got more >>than he deserved and Andrew got nowhere near what he deserved. The >>little punk should be somebody's butt monkey in maximum security. > > > So then what does Angel deserve? He killed alot more people then Andrew > did... obviously repenting for your sins holds nothing in your eyes so by > that right does Angel not deserve to be put to death, or be someones butt > monkey? If Andrew spends a century roasting in a hell dimension before being kicked out by TPTB to _then_ start doing some good works, I'll be satisfied. How's that? But...none of this *subjective* century in hell stuff--a real, honest-to-god CENTURY. Starting NOW.

2004-02-10 09:52:24-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Jake <wh@ever.com>)


Ken from Chicago wrote: > > "Jake" <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com... > > Adam Dolan wrote: > > > > > > Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message > news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > > > > Avatar wrote: > > > > > > > > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the > > > > > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > > > > > > > > Your point being? > > > > > > I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. I > > > just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made me > > > want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. > > > > Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got > > caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of > > course, chicks. > > > > But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. And before the > > Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into > > murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": "Kill > > her! Kill her!" > > > > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. > > More than someone who tortured and then skinned someone alive? Warren got what he deserved. It's called street justice. Of course Evil Willow went over the top, as everybody who encountered her told her. It was all part of that incredibly stupid "crack magic" plot, one more reason to despise the Dawnverse. But of course Willow had to be saved. Because she's Willow. Hell, these are the braintrusts who spared a bloodsucking monster because it looked and sounded like Willow.

2004-02-10 09:53:49-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Jake <wh@ever.com>)


Brother Justin wrote: > > "Jake" <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:402856F5.7EAE783C@ever.com... > > Clairel wrote: > > > > > > Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com>... > > > > Adam Dolan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message > news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > > > > > > Avatar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by > the > > > > > > > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your point being? > > > > > > > > > > I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. > I > > > > > just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made > me > > > > > want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. > > > > > > > > Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got > > > > caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of > > > > course, chicks. > > > > > > > > But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. And before the > > > > Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into > > > > murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": > "Kill > > > > her! Kill her!" > > > > > > > > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > > > > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. > > > > > > --But you're talking about season 6 Andrew. And what you say is valid > > > only if you assume Andrew never made any kind of turnaround in season > > > 7 of BtVS. I think he did. You can see it at the end of Storyteller > > > and in subsequent episodes. He's still too preoccupied with > > > fantasies, but even so he has a new sense of seriousness, and of the > > > sanctity of human life. > > > > > > Plus, he doesn't work for Wolfram & Hart. > > > > > > Clairel > > > > The way I see it, Warren got exactly what he deserved, Jonathan got more > > than he deserved and Andrew got nowhere near what he deserved. The > > little punk should be somebody's butt monkey in maximum security. > > So then what does Angel deserve? He killed alot more people then Andrew > did... obviously repenting for your sins holds nothing in your eyes so by > that right does Angel not deserve to be put to death, or be someones butt > monkey? Angelus killed a lot more people. Angel isn't Angelus. What series have you been watching? Also Angel puts in the work. Angel puts his ass in the line constantly while Andrew talks trash constantly. Obviously TPTB recognize Angel is more an asset than a liability. Andrew survives only by the mercy of the Slaygang, the same soft-headed bunch that spared VampWillow just because she looked and sounded like live Willow.

2004-02-10 09:55:49-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Jake <wh@ever.com>)


Ian wrote: > > Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com>... > > > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. > > It's kind of dumb, yeah, but the "most offensive" thing? I said "*one* of the most offensive things". Sheesh. > What about that awful scene towards tne end of BtVS season 7 when > Spike was berating the the Scoobies for not following Buffy's orders? > That was along the same lines and far more offensive. I agree. Spike offends me. I wish he was gone. I don't buy this whole ridiculous retcon of Spike, starting with the magical (yes, magical) chip that acted as substitute soul. Angel put it perfectly: "I spent a hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?!" Left unsaid was that most of that moaning was dealing with First-Evil nonsense, not actual guilt over the atrocities committed by William the Bloody. I'm thinking 'sociopath'. You know, for pre-vamp William. Hey, not all of them grow up to be serial killers. Getting vamped doesn't count; not caring about it, does. Of course we now have a further retcon in "Damage" where Spike does start to feel remorse. It's a little late IMO. Angel felt his remorse instantly, Spike needed months (and the writers realizing they screwed up) to start feeling remorse. Anybody else wish Spike had hauled his undead ass off to Europe to find Buffy?

2004-02-10 13:42:05-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (reldevik@usa.net)


igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote in message news:<5aa58763.0402092241.6be13e73@posting.google.com>... > Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com>... > > > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. > > It's kind of dumb, yeah, but the "most offensive" thing? > > What about that awful scene towards tne end of BtVS season 7 when > Spike was berating the the Scoobies for not following Buffy's orders? > That was along the same lines and far more offensive. --Why? Spike had followed Buffy with loyalty and dedication ever since the restoration of his soul and his sanity. Even in the depths of post-ensoulment insanity, Spike made efforts to pull himself together to help Buffy (for example, in episode 5.4 when he went to the school library to help Buffy save Cassy; and there are similar examples in episodes 5.2 and 5.3). Why shouldn't Spike speak his mind about the others' rotten treatment of Buffy? Coming back to the Summers house after a trip out of town, and finding Buffy no longer there because the others had rejected her, is something that would naturally give rise to feelings of shock and outrage in anyone loyal to Buffy. What's Spike supposed to say? "I used to be an evil, soulless vampire, and when I was I didn't always do the right thing, and I wasn't always Buffy's staunchest supporter. So I can understand and tolerate rat-fink behavior from others." Is that the position you think he should have taken? Trouble is, none of the people who rejected Buffy were evil, soulless vampires. And the things Spike said in reproach of them were valid. Clairel

2004-02-10 14:10:11-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (reldevik@usa.net)


Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<402856F5.7EAE783C@ever.com>... > Clairel wrote: > > > > Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com>... > > > Adam Dolan wrote: > > > > > > > > Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > > > > > Avatar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the > > > > > > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > > > > > > > > > > Your point being? > > > > > > > > I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. I > > > > just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made me > > > > want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. > > > > > > Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got > > > caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of > > > course, chicks. > > > > > > But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. And before the > > > Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into > > > murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": "Kill > > > her! Kill her!" > > > > > > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > > > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. > > > > --But you're talking about season 6 Andrew. And what you say is valid > > only if you assume Andrew never made any kind of turnaround in season > > 7 of BtVS. I think he did. You can see it at the end of Storyteller > > and in subsequent episodes. He's still too preoccupied with > > fantasies, but even so he has a new sense of seriousness, and of the > > sanctity of human life. > > > > Plus, he doesn't work for Wolfram & Hart. > > > > Clairel > > The way I see it, Warren got exactly what he deserved, Jonathan got more > than he deserved and Andrew got nowhere near what he deserved. The > little punk should be somebody's butt monkey in maximum security. --Seems to me the world is a lot better off with Andrew doing the hard, dangerous job he is doing (working with Giles to make contact with new slayers and bring them into the fold). It's not as if this job is without risks, as we saw in episode 5.11 when Andrew had a close brush with the psychotic Dana. The number of people who know about Slayers is limited, and with most members of the CoW killed last year, Giles has to make use of every knowledgeable person he has available. Giles evidently decided that after Andrew had demonstrated his willingness to risk his life to save the world in BtVS 7.22, imprisonment would serve no purpose for Andrew and he might as well be put to work in some useful way. I suppose you could also say that after the body counts Angel and Spike accumulated when they were soulless, they also should be imprisoned (or simply staked); but the whole premise of AtS is that the best way for Angel to make amends for his past is to use his fighting strength for good, rather than to moulder in prison accomplishing nothing. Giles long ago accepted the idea of Angel being allowed to remain at large and fight the good fight--and that after Giles had been tortured by Angelus, and had his girlfriend Jenny Calendar killed by Angelus. If Giles could be that forbearing with Angel after season 2 of BtVS, it'd be strange for Giles to take a harder line with Andrew. Once Andrew became a voluntary ally of Giles and Buffy and marched into danger with them in episode 7.22, the only thing that makes sense for Giles to do with Andrew is to make use of him as long as Andrew is willing to be of use. And I would say the same for Faith. She spent enough time in prison; her conduct after leaving prison, on both AtS and BtVS last year, shows that she has not only the power but also the psychological stability to be eminently useful to the world on the outside. Though we didn't hear Andrew mentioning her to Spike, I'm sure Faith has been posted to yet another part of the world where she can do her part in the ongoing mission, as Buffy, Xander, Willow, Kennedy, Giles and Andrew are doing. And I wouldn't want it any other way. She already voluntarily did a three-year hitch in prison; return to prison would be pointless for her, and a sad waste of her talents. Clairel

2004-02-10 18:14:32+00:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message news:c0b5l8$b80$2@blue.rahul.net... > In article <uNWdnbYbke2MK7XdRVn-uw@comcast.com>, > Ken from Chicago <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> wrote: > >Angelus didn't lock a room full of lawyers in with two especially dangerous > >vampires or sic a hungry demon on a hotel full of scared people or date a > >minor or unleash a demon on an unsuspecting public resulting in multiple > >deaths--TWICE. > > The lawyers thing was retconned to say that they were fated to die and so > Angel didn't "really" kill them. > > And it's obvious that Angel wasn't supposed to be a child molester because > Buffy was his girlfriend. That was bad writing--writing a fantasy that 16 > year old girls might have while ignoring its implications. No character in > the show--even characters who criticized the relationship on other > grounds--has ever indicated that there was anything wrong with Angel+Buffy > because of her age. Mayor Wilkins, although his comments were more because of the age *discrepancy.* -- Rowan Hawthorn "I love mankind, it's people I can't stand." - Linus Van Pelt

2004-02-10 19:37:00-06:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Ken from Chicago <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message news:c0b50l$b80$1@blue.rahul.net... > In article <gOCdnQm9c-hhKbXdRVn-jA@comcast.com>, > Ken from Chicago <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> wrote: > >> Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > >> good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. > >More than someone who tortured and then skinned someone alive? > > Willow did that to someone who killed her lover. Andrew did it for no reason > other than to be evil. > -- > Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee > (Selling R3 DVDs: Shinobi no Mono, Hellsing; Drunken Master 2 VHS. Make offer.) > > Tikritis: "Saddam is in our hearts! Saddam is in our blood!" > Americans/Iraqi Police: "Saddam is in our jail!" Andrew did it so he wouldn't be alone, afraid--and worst of all: independent. -- Ken from Chicago P.S. Not that he didn't deserve to be locked in a room with Darla and Dru, but I like to get the details right.

2004-02-10 21:49:51-05:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (The Babaloughesian <me@privacy.net>)


"Ian" <igs622001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:5aa58763.0402091038.11c26380@posting.google.com... > ... how about some of the other from the three nerds. > > Maybe it's Warren who built those ninja robots? Similar technology. That would be cool, but he's dead. Too bad. that. He was the coolest of the nerds.

2004-02-10 21:52:15-05:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (The Babaloughesian <me@privacy.net>)


"Jake" <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com... > Adam Dolan wrote: > > > > Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > > > Avatar wrote: > > > > > > > Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by the > > > > grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > > > > > > Your point being? > > > > I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. I > > just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made me > > want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. > > Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got > caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of > course, chicks. > > But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. Yeah, that's why I like Warren and Andrew better than Jonathan. Except for when Jonathan was FE. He was cooler than all of them at that point. > And before the > Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into > murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": "Kill > her! Kill her!" CWDP Andrew was so much cooler than SR Andrew. > Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. Nah. Buffy's pep talks were more offensive.

2004-02-10 22:24:20-05:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (The Babaloughesian <me@privacy.net>)


"Mark Jones" <sinanju@pacifier.com> wrote in message news:102i4lkn5c37mf5@corp.supernews.com... > Brother Justin wrote: > > "Jake" <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:402856F5.7EAE783C@ever.com... > > > >>Clairel wrote: > >> > >>>Jake <wh@ever.com> wrote in message news:<40280EDF.93C35708@ever.com>... > >>> > >>>>Adam Dolan wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>Mark Nobles <cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com> wrote in message > > > > news:<090220041339314532%cmn-nospam@houston.rr.com>... > > > >>>>>>Avatar wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>Last I checked, Warren was skinned alive then flamed to bits by > > > > the > > > >>>>>>>grief-stricken Lesbian witch. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Your point being? > >>>>> > >>>>>I'd actually prefer a return of either of the other 2 over Andrew. > > > > I > > > >>>>>just find Warren and Jonothan less irritating somehow. Andrew made > > > > me > > > >>>>>want to reach thru the tv set and slap him. > >>>> > >>>>Except for the "Superstar" episode, I actually liked Jonathan. He got > >>>>caught up in the Trio thing in a desperate bid for respect and, of > >>>>course, chicks. > >>>> > >>>>But he was never a murderer like Warren and Andrew. And before the > >>>>Andrewphiles start bleating how he was tricked by the First Evil into > >>>>murdering Jonathan, let me just quote Andrew from "Seeing Red": > > > > "Kill > > > >>>>her! Kill her!" > >>>> > >>>>Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > >>>>good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. > >>> > >>>--But you're talking about season 6 Andrew. And what you say is valid > >>>only if you assume Andrew never made any kind of turnaround in season > >>>7 of BtVS. I think he did. You can see it at the end of Storyteller > >>>and in subsequent episodes. He's still too preoccupied with > >>>fantasies, but even so he has a new sense of seriousness, and of the > >>>sanctity of human life. > >>> > >>>Plus, he doesn't work for Wolfram & Hart. > >>> > >>>Clairel > >> > >>The way I see it, Warren got exactly what he deserved, Jonathan got more > >>than he deserved and Andrew got nowhere near what he deserved. The > >>little punk should be somebody's butt monkey in maximum security. > > > > > > So then what does Angel deserve? He killed alot more people then Andrew > > did... obviously repenting for your sins holds nothing in your eyes so by > > that right does Angel not deserve to be put to death, or be someones butt > > monkey? > > If Andrew spends a century roasting in a hell dimension before being > kicked out by TPTB to _then_ start doing some good works, I'll be > satisfied. How's that? > > But...none of this *subjective* century in hell stuff--a real, > honest-to-god CENTURY. Starting NOW. Waitaminute-- so you wouldn't mind if subjectively, it were 5 minutes to him, as long as it's a "real" century for us?

2004-02-10 22:26:48-05:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (The Babaloughesian <me@privacy.net>)


"Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message news:c0b50l$b80$1@blue.rahul.net... > In article <gOCdnQm9c-hhKbXdRVn-jA@comcast.com>, > Ken from Chicago <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> wrote: > >> Andrew walking around free and lecturing Angel on who's on the side of > >> good is one of the most offensive things ME has *ever* put on screen. > >More than someone who tortured and then skinned someone alive? > > Willow did that to someone who killed her lover. Oh, so she's guilty of vigilantism in addition to murder.

2004-02-11 10:43:00-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


The Babaloughesian wrote: > "Mark Jones" <sinanju@pacifier.com> wrote in message > news:102i4lkn5c37mf5@corp.supernews.com... >>If Andrew spends a century roasting in a hell dimension before being >>kicked out by TPTB to _then_ start doing some good works, I'll be >>satisfied. How's that? >> >>But...none of this *subjective* century in hell stuff--a real, >>honest-to-god CENTURY. Starting NOW. > > Waitaminute-- so you wouldn't mind if subjectively, it were 5 minutes to > him, as long as it's a "real" century for us? No I want it to be a real century for us AND for Andrew. None of this disappearing at the end of one season and reappearing at the beginning of the next, and _telling_ us he spent a century or two in hell, as Angel did on BtVS. I want Andrew to be busy roasting in hell for longer than I'm likely to live, so I never have to see him again. If he then returns to television, well, I won't mind.

2004-02-13 02:45:50+00:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com>)


Jake wrote: > I agree. Spike offends me. I wish he was gone. I don't buy this > whole ridiculous retcon of Spike, starting with the magical (yes, > magical) chip that acted as substitute soul. > > Angel put it perfectly: "I spent a hundred years trying to come to > terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a > basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?!" > > Left unsaid was that most of that moaning was dealing with First-Evil > nonsense, not actual guilt over the atrocities committed by William > the Bloody. I'm thinking 'sociopath'. You know, for pre-vamp > William. Hey, not all of them grow up to be serial killers. Getting > vamped doesn't count; not caring about it, does. > > Of course we now have a further retcon in "Damage" where Spike does > start to feel remorse. It's a little late IMO. Angel felt his > remorse instantly, Spike needed months (and the writers realizing > they screwed up) to start feeling remorse. Uh, no, he didn't. Angel was still trying to get back with Darla *years* later. *Years*. I don't know where people got this idea that Angel magically leaped into the gutter right away, because we've seen he didn't. He didn't end up in the gutter until the frickin 70s, and that was because he couldn't function as a man or a monster, not because of guilt per se. Angel didn't take a hundred years to come to term with anything. He took 100 years to stop being depressed. -- My hostname is only the last two parts.

2004-02-13 07:39:48-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Jake <wh@ever.com>)


David Cheatham wrote: > > Jake wrote: > > > I agree. Spike offends me. I wish he was gone. I don't buy this > > whole ridiculous retcon of Spike, starting with the magical (yes, > > magical) chip that acted as substitute soul. > > > > Angel put it perfectly: "I spent a hundred years trying to come to > > terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a > > basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?!" > > > > Left unsaid was that most of that moaning was dealing with First-Evil > > nonsense, not actual guilt over the atrocities committed by William > > the Bloody. I'm thinking 'sociopath'. You know, for pre-vamp > > William. Hey, not all of them grow up to be serial killers. Getting > > vamped doesn't count; not caring about it, does. > > > > Of course we now have a further retcon in "Damage" where Spike does > > start to feel remorse. It's a little late IMO. Angel felt his > > remorse instantly, Spike needed months (and the writers realizing > > they screwed up) to start feeling remorse. > > Uh, no, he didn't. Angel was still trying to get back with Darla > *years* later. *Years*. > > I don't know where people got this idea that Angel magically leaped > into the gutter right away, because we've seen he didn't. He didn't end > up in the gutter until the frickin 70s, and that was because he > couldn't function as a man or a monster, not because of guilt per se. > > Angel didn't take a hundred years to come to term with anything. He > took 100 years to stop being depressed. > > -- > My hostname is only the last two parts. I guess you completely missed the parts where he couldn't kill the woman in Romania (scene of his ensoulment) or where he saved the baby of the missionaries in China (where Spike killed the Slayer). What, you need a big neon sign pointing at Angel flashing REMORSE to figure out what was going way back then? I didn't say he leaped into the gutter. But obviously he was trying to come to terms with *something*. He was no longer a remorseless killer. This isn't rocket science.

2004-02-15 20:56:53+00:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com>)


Jake wrote: > David Cheatham wrote: > > > > Jake wrote: > > > > > I agree. Spike offends me. I wish he was gone. I don't buy this > > > whole ridiculous retcon of Spike, starting with the magical (yes, > > > magical) chip that acted as substitute soul. > > > > > > Angel put it perfectly: "I spent a hundred years trying to come to > > > terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a > > > basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?!" > > > > > > Left unsaid was that most of that moaning was dealing with > > > First-Evil nonsense, not actual guilt over the atrocities > > > committed by William the Bloody. I'm thinking 'sociopath'. You > > > know, for pre-vamp William. Hey, not all of them grow up to be > > > serial killers. Getting vamped doesn't count; not caring about > > > it, does. > > > > > > Of course we now have a further retcon in "Damage" where Spike > > > does start to feel remorse. It's a little late IMO. Angel felt > > > his remorse instantly, Spike needed months (and the writers > > > realizing they screwed up) to start feeling remorse. > > > > Uh, no, he didn't. Angel was still trying to get back with Darla > > years later. Years. > > > > I don't know where people got this idea that Angel magically leaped > > into the gutter right away, because we've seen he didn't. He didn't > > end up in the gutter until the frickin 70s, and that was because he > > couldn't function as a man or a monster, not because of guilt per > > se. > > > > Angel didn't take a hundred years to come to term with anything. He > > took 100 years to stop being depressed. > > > > -- > > My hostname is only the last two parts. > > I guess you completely missed the parts where he couldn't kill the > woman in Romania (scene of his ensoulment) or where he saved the baby > of the missionaries in China (where Spike killed the Slayer). Um, no. > What, you need a big neon sign pointing at Angel flashing REMORSE to > figure out what was going way back then? Or where Spike saved a bunch of people? > I didn't say he leaped into the gutter. But obviously he was trying > to come to terms with something. He was no longer a remorseless > killer. This isn't rocket science. What the hell does not killing people have to do with remorse? Spike wasn't killing people either. You're trying to set up this situtation where remorse crippled Angel for 100 years, and it's simply not true. The fact he wouldn't kill people meant he had a soul and thus had empathy for them, not that he was crippled with remorse. Because, duh, if they did, then Spike ovbiously feels *more* guilt. Hell, he wasn't even killing murderers, the closest he came to killing anyone was self defense, and he decided not to do that. Your logic does not resemble our earth logic. If Angel refraining from killing people proved he had remorse, than Spike refraining from killing *more* people proves he has more remorse. The only time we've *ever* seen Spike or Angel having trouble coming to term with anything was *immediately* after they were ensouled, as in, *days* after it. With a week or so they've come to terms with all the peope they've killed and can live with themselves, barring random events that trigger more guilt, like Angel in Amends or Spike in Damage. -- My hostname is only the last two parts.

2004-02-17 23:07:36-08:00 - Re: Seeing how ME brought Andrew back into the show... - (Jake <wh@ever.com>)


David Cheatham wrote: > > Jake wrote: > > > David Cheatham wrote: > > > > > > Jake wrote: > > > > > > > I agree. Spike offends me. I wish he was gone. I don't buy this > > > > whole ridiculous retcon of Spike, starting with the magical (yes, > > > > magical) chip that acted as substitute soul. > > > > > > > > Angel put it perfectly: "I spent a hundred years trying to come to > > > > terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a > > > > basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?!" > > > > > > > > Left unsaid was that most of that moaning was dealing with > > > > First-Evil nonsense, not actual guilt over the atrocities > > > > committed by William the Bloody. I'm thinking 'sociopath'. You > > > > know, for pre-vamp William. Hey, not all of them grow up to be > > > > serial killers. Getting vamped doesn't count; not caring about > > > > it, does. > > > > > > > > Of course we now have a further retcon in "Damage" where Spike > > > > does start to feel remorse. It's a little late IMO. Angel felt > > > > his remorse instantly, Spike needed months (and the writers > > > > realizing they screwed up) to start feeling remorse. > > > > > > Uh, no, he didn't. Angel was still trying to get back with Darla > > > years later. Years. > > > > > > I don't know where people got this idea that Angel magically leaped > > > into the gutter right away, because we've seen he didn't. He didn't > > > end up in the gutter until the frickin 70s, and that was because he > > > couldn't function as a man or a monster, not because of guilt per > > > se. > > > > > > Angel didn't take a hundred years to come to term with anything. He > > > took 100 years to stop being depressed. > > > > > > -- > > > My hostname is only the last two parts. > > > > I guess you completely missed the parts where he couldn't kill the > > woman in Romania (scene of his ensoulment) or where he saved the baby > > of the missionaries in China (where Spike killed the Slayer). > > Um, no. But you talk like you do. You just ignore what Angel said about HIS own feelings to put your own bizarre spin on his feelings and ignore the evidence I posted to prove you're *wrong*. Which is greater, your arrogance or your stupidity? > > What, you need a big neon sign pointing at Angel flashing REMORSE to > > figure out what was going way back then? > > Or where Spike saved a bunch of people? Spike saved a bunch of people to get into Buffy's panties. He started fighting demons in S4 initially because he couldn't hurt people anymore, thanks to the chip, and fighting demons was preferable to not fighting at all. Then he got the hots for Buffy so he continued to help out in S5 and S6, still fighting demons and saving people. Then he got tricked by a demon so he got his soul back, plus he still had the chip, plus he still had the hots for Buffy, so why not continue saving people when he wasn't being jerked around by the First Evil? Spike isn't hard to figure out; he's like Pavlov's poochie. > > I didn't say he leaped into the gutter. But obviously he was trying > > to come to terms with something. He was no longer a remorseless > > killer. This isn't rocket science. > > What the hell does not killing people have to do with remorse? Because he's a bloodsucker who gets strongest on human blood, so he would not refrain from that except through guilt/remorse. Sorry this is news to you. Maybe if you took your head out of your ass and actually watched the show, you could keep up. > Spike wasn't killing people either. Spike : chip >> hots for Buffy >> soul. All Angel had was his soul for 100 years before he found renewed purpose with Buffy. But he wasn't eating thousands of people during all that time, either. He wasn't being a champion but he also wasn't being a monster as best he could. > You're trying to set up this situtation where remorse crippled Angel > for 100 years, and it's simply not true. The fact he wouldn't kill > people meant he had a soul and thus had empathy for them, not that he > was crippled with remorse. He SAID he was coming to terms with remorse. It takes a real arrogant asshole to presume to read his mind and said, "No, you weren't. It's this other bullshit theory I have." You really are full of yourself. Which is just another way of saying you're full of shit. > Because, duh, if they did, then Spike ovbiously feels *more* guilt. Blah blah yada yada. You're a broken record. And the song being played was never on anybody's top 100 list. Try eating some brain food, if it's not too late.