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2003-04-29 09:06:26-07:00 - ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (salmoneous@aol.com)


Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: .. .. .. .. .. Both AtS and BtVS have had major storylines this season where ME seems to be playing games with the fans. On Angel, have Cordy sleep with dimwitboy, get the fans all talking about it, and then reveal that - aha - it isn't Cordy. On Buffy, have Giles act non-Giles-like and avoid touching anything, get fans speculating that he is The First, the - aha - its just Giles. Personally, I thought neither of these worked well at all. Setup that distracted from the show, and a payoff that just wasn't worth it. Thinking back, I can think of lots of ME attempted misdirection that fell flat: Get the fans thinking Spike gets his chip out, then - aha - he's really getting a soul Get the fans wondering what kind of creature Buffy is, then - aha - it's just sunburn Get the fans wondering what kind of demon Tara is - aha - she's not a demon at all What I can't think of are situations were ME did misdirection and it worked. Just to be clear, I think ME does mystery well. Who is Ben and how is he connected to Glory? It would have been misdirection if it turned out - psych - that Ben wasn't connected to Glory at all. I also think ME does single episode misdirection well. I know a lot of people thought Enemies didn't "play fair" but I loved it. What I can't think of is a multi-episode misdirection that worked. Anyone?

2003-04-29 09:32:01-07:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Rob <rob@lvcm.com>)


"salmoneous" <salmoneous@aol.com> wrote in message news:54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com... > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > What I can't think of are situations were ME did misdirection and it > worked. Just to be clear, I think ME does mystery well. Who is Ben and > how is he connected to Glory? It would have been misdirection if it > turned out - psych - that Ben wasn't connected to Glory at all. I also > think ME does single episode misdirection well. I know a lot of people > thought Enemies didn't "play fair" but I loved it. What I can't think > of is a multi-episode misdirection that worked. Anyone? I kinda liked the whole Spike-chip-soul thing. I completely missed the Tara-Demon thing though, I just thought that Tara thought that spell was too advanced for her at that point. But, I've got one instance. Larry Niven (SP).

2003-04-29 11:22:46-07:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


DarkMagic wrote: >>Get the fans thinking Spike gets his chip out, then - aha - he's >>really getting a soul > > > Don't know why they bothered with that one. JE did an interview immediately > after the final episode aired and told everyone that Spike went to get his > soul. Ruined a cliffhanger, imo. It annoyed the hell out of me. The essentially told me that I was supposed to believe the writers (who are known liars, one and all) rather than believing my so-called lying eyes. I know what I saw. Everything Spike (Joss, et al) has said since then is a ham-handed retcon.

2003-04-29 13:16:09-07:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Joe Curwen <jcurwen@freeonline.com>)


In article <MPG.191872bef60fe9dd98a081@netnews.attbi.com>, Growltiger says... > >Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, danielmilburn@hotmail.com wrote in >article <FRzra.4532$3b5.36400245@news-text.cableinet.net>... >> On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:18:11 +0100, Growltiger wrote: >> >> > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, salmoneous@aol.com wrote in article >> > <54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com>... >> >> Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: >> >> >> > My complaint about the soul-instead-of-chip switch is the revelation by >> > writer interview that occurred after "Grave." That was bogus. Call me >> > reactionary, but I expect plot twists to be revealed within the context >> > of the story. As far as I am concerned, any story or character >> > direction revealed outside the story must be ignored. >> >> Huh? This was revealed right at the end of 'Grave'. > >The plot twist was Spike went to the demon for his soul and not to have >his chip removed. The way I saw the last two episodes, "Two To Go" and >"Grave," it appeared to me that Spike wanted to have his chip removed. >I grant that the language was ambiguous, but Spike's portrayal pointed >to the chip and not the soul. I think, and I know that I am not alone >here, that it is a fair interpretation of the final scene that the demon >in the cave was tricking Spike. You may not see it that way, but it is >a reasonable argument. I agree, and I was disappointed for the same reasons. Interestingly, Marsters appeared at a convention recently and stated that he misplayed his character in S6. The fact that people felt sorry for Spike and didn't feel sorry for Buffy throughout S6 (which Marsters took responsibility for), and capped by the extrordinary act of a writer having to give an interview to tell the audience what the finale script meant (based on Marsters crude grrr arrgh line readings), was the result of a poor performance by Marsters. Its a shame. Joe

2003-04-29 13:26:10-04:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"salmoneous" <salmoneous@aol.com> wrote in message news:54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com... > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > .. > .. > .. > .. > .. > > Both AtS and BtVS have had major storylines this season where ME seems > to be playing games with the fans. On Angel, have Cordy sleep with > dimwitboy, get the fans all talking about it, and then reveal that - > aha - it isn't Cordy. It isn't Cordy in the same way that Angelus isn't Angel. Liam was hoodwinked by his weaknesses, drink and women, into becoming an evil vampire. Cordelia was hoodwinked by her weaknesses, vanity and self-absorption, into becoming a demon. Cordelia, the real Cordelia, used her sexuality and attractiveness to manipulate men into giving her what she wanted. Mostly attention and recognition. Evil Cordelia does the exact same thing. Cordy/Thing is Cordelia giving way to all of her worst impulses, granted with a little evil intervention, but Skip did tell her that becoming a demon had consequences. Consequences which she never bothered to inquire about. On Buffy, have Giles act non-Giles-like and > avoid touching anything, get fans speculating that he is The First, > the - aha - its just Giles. Personally, I thought neither of these > worked well at all. Setup that distracted from the show, and a payoff > that just wasn't worth it. > I never even considered the possibility that it wasn't Giles. If I hadn't read about the script direction that AH not touch anyone or anything I would have never even noticed it. > Thinking back, I can think of lots of ME attempted misdirection that > fell flat: > > Get the fans thinking Spike gets his chip out, then - aha - he's > really getting a soul Don't know why they bothered with that one. JE did an interview immediately after the final episode aired and told everyone that Spike went to get his soul. Ruined a cliffhanger, imo. > Get the fans wondering what kind of creature Buffy is, then - aha - > it's just sunburn This one makes me cranky. > Get the fans wondering what kind of demon Tara is - aha - she's not a > demon at all > Not a big deal to me. > What I can't think of are situations were ME did misdirection and it > worked. Just to be clear, I think ME does mystery well. Who is Ben and > how is he connected to Glory? It would have been misdirection if it > turned out - psych - that Ben wasn't connected to Glory at all. I also > think ME does single episode misdirection well. I know a lot of people > thought Enemies didn't "play fair" but I loved it. I knew they wouldn't make Angel evil again. That was another attempt at misdirection that I saw through from the very beginning. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-29 13:55:40-04:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"Crazy Cat" <khlua35001@sneakemail.com> wrote in message news:Xns936C8A5FD2274dbredyatt@216.148.227.77... > salmoneous@aol.com (salmoneous) wrote in > news:54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com: > > > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > > > .. > > .. > > .. > > .. > > <snip> > > > Get the fans wondering what kind of creature Buffy is, then - aha - > > it's just sunburn > > ummm, when did this happen? Last season, when Buffy came back "wrong". Arnold Kim

2003-04-29 15:34:31-07:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Joe Curwen <jcurwen@freeonline.com>)


In article <Xns936CC38ECFB39ianmerrithewieeeorg@198.164.200.20>, Ian says... > >Joe Curwen <jcurwen@freeonline.com> wrote in >news:b8mmi901hhi@drn.newsguy.com: > >> capped by the extrordinary act of a writer having to give an interview >> to tell the audience what the finale script meant (based on Marsters >> crude grrr arrgh line readings), was the result of a poor performance >> by Marsters. Its a shame. > >I don't belive that one. I think Marsters played his scenes the way he >thought they were leading -- to Spike getting his chip out. Then the >writers undercut him at the last minute with the bait-and-switch ending, >and ever since, everyone's been backpedaling on Spike's motivations. >Sloppy execution by the producers, not by the actor, IMO. > >-- I think you have a good point there. But it might be that the reason for the non-communication about how he should have behaved was because the writers never dreamed that all of a sudden he would play his character so differently, and so they didn't think it necessary to say anything. Still, after 20 episodes of performances that were more faithful to his fans than the story or the character, it is the producers' fault. Joe

2003-04-29 16:41:49-04:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"PJ Browning" <antarian@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:290420031114302023%antarian@pacbell.net... > In article <Jf2dnWpfSJ0lKDOjXTWcpw@comcast.com>, DarkMagic > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > "salmoneous" <salmoneous@aol.com> wrote in message > > news:54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com... > > > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > > > > > .. > > > .. > > > .. > > > .. > > > .. > > > > > > Both AtS and BtVS have had major storylines this season where ME seems > > > to be playing games with the fans. On Angel, have Cordy sleep with > > > dimwitboy, get the fans all talking about it, and then reveal that - > > > aha - it isn't Cordy. > > > > It isn't Cordy in the same way that Angelus isn't Angel. Liam was > > hoodwinked by his weaknesses, drink and women, into becoming an evil > > vampire. Cordelia was hoodwinked by her weaknesses, vanity and > > self-absorption, into becoming a demon. > > wrong. Cordelia's weakness is that she isn't vain and self-centered > anymore. What? Cordelia doesn't have faults anymore? Now that's what I call character growth. She hadn't been for a long time and she was happy without > those faults. She had found her true self Her "true" self was the self that Angel's and the gang's worlds revolved around. "Stop everything! Cordelia's had a vision!" "Vision Girl" was, oh, so important to the world she couldn't give the visions to Groo. Groo was better equipped to handle them and to help the people who needed help, but that didn't matter to "Vision Girl". *She* needed the visions to be recognized. To continue to be the center of attention. Even when the freaking things were *killing* her, literally destroying her brain, Cordelia wouldn't, didn't, even consider giving them up because they made her feel important. All Skip did was seem to verify what Cordelia already believed to be true. Without her Angel would be nothing more than a drooling idiot. Gunn and Wesley would be physically and emotionally devastated and the world would be at peril. Of course, the visions have existed forever, someone has always had them before and someone else would have them if Cordelia didn't. And that's the whole point. If Cordelia didn't have them she wouldn't be the important one. Cordelia's keeping of the visions was never about helping the helpless as much as it was about helping Cordelia to be the center of her universe. After her demonization, in fact, Cordelia completely forgets about helping the helpless. Skip told her that becoming a demon would have serious consequences and yet she never questions it for a minute when she *stops* having visions about the helpless she swore she was so concerned about helping. She claims to love Angel and want only to help him help those who need it, but Skip convinces her with no effort at all that she's so superior, so wonderful, she belongs in a better place. Well, when has Cordelia ever believed any differently? No faults indeed. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-29 16:53:33-04:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Dan Solomon" <dansolo@attbi.com> wrote in message news:Xns936C8CA1E8532dansoloattbi@63.240.76.16... > "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in > news:Jf2dnWpfSJ0lKDOjXTWcpw@comcast.com: > > > > > > > "salmoneous" <salmoneous@aol.com> wrote in message > > news:54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com... > >> Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > >> > >> .. > >> .. > >> .. > >> .. > >> .. > >> > >> Both AtS and BtVS have had major storylines this season where ME > >> seems to be playing games with the fans. On Angel, have Cordy sleep > >> with dimwitboy, get the fans all talking about it, and then reveal > >> that - aha - it isn't Cordy. > > > > It isn't Cordy in the same way that Angelus isn't Angel. Liam was > > hoodwinked by his weaknesses, drink and women, into becoming an evil > > vampire. Cordelia was hoodwinked by her weaknesses, vanity and > > self-absorption, into becoming a demon. Cordelia, the real Cordelia, > > used her sexuality and attractiveness to manipulate men into giving > > her what she wanted. Mostly attention and recognition. Evil Cordelia > > does the exact same thing. Cordy/Thing is Cordelia giving way to all > > of her worst impulses, granted with a little evil intervention, but > > Skip did tell her that becoming a demon had consequences. > > Consequences which she never bothered to inquire about. > > Skip might have been telling the truth about her brain exploding with her > next vision. It's not like she had a lot of choice in her decision to > become a demon. Vanity was certainly not the reason. > Skip very likely was telling Cordelia the truth about her brain exploding. At the very least she would have remained in a coma until Angel found away to bring her back sans visions. But she was so wrapped up in her "Vision Girl" fantasy thing that she *wanted* to believe the visions were her destiny, instead of something she accidentally received when Doyle kissed her goodbye. Cordelia had an opportunity to rid herself of the visions. She could have given them to Groo who was better equipped to handle them and to help the helpless, but she didn't. She didn't even go to Angel when she found out that the visions were killing her. That's devotion? No, that's arrogance. She wouldn't be much help to the gang dead, now would she? Apparently, death was preferable than not being the most important person that A.I. relied on for direction in their quest to help helpless. Then becoming a demon, at any cost, no questions asked, was preferable to death or giving up the visions. Of course, after her demonization Cordelia's visions changed, she no longer saw any helpless needing help. And she was so concerned about the helpless, she didn't even notice. Interestingly enough, she is now in the exact same place she was when Skip originally intervened, lying motionless in a coma. Funny, the gang at A.I. has done just fine without her being "vision girl" this season. Cordelia would scarcely credit the notion. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-29 17:18:11+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, salmoneous@aol.com wrote in article <54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com>... > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > .. > .. > .. > .. > .. > > Both AtS and BtVS have had major storylines this season where ME seems > to be playing games with the fans. On Angel, have Cordy sleep with > dimwitboy, get the fans all talking about it, and then reveal that - > aha - it isn't Cordy. On Buffy, have Giles act non-Giles-like and > avoid touching anything, get fans speculating that he is The First, > the - aha - its just Giles. Personally, I thought neither of these > worked well at all. Setup that distracted from the show, and a payoff > that just wasn't worth it. > > Thinking back, I can think of lots of ME attempted misdirection that > fell flat: > > Get the fans thinking Spike gets his chip out, then - aha - he's > really getting a soul > Get the fans wondering what kind of creature Buffy is, then - aha - > it's just sunburn > Get the fans wondering what kind of demon Tara is - aha - she's not a > demon at all > > What I can't think of are situations were ME did misdirection and it > worked. Just to be clear, I think ME does mystery well. Who is Ben and > how is he connected to Glory? It would have been misdirection if it > turned out - psych - that Ben wasn't connected to Glory at all. I also > think ME does single episode misdirection well. I know a lot of people > thought Enemies didn't "play fair" but I loved it. What I can't think > of is a multi-episode misdirection that worked. Anyone? > To be fair, Tara was supposed to be a demon, but Joss Whedon changed his mind once he became enamored with the Tara and Willow love affair. And I contend that the misdirection worked on Buffy coming back wrong. We were lead to believe that Buffy came back wrong. What we learned was that Buffy left wrong. Her leap of the tower may have had heroic consequences, but her motivations were not all heroic. The revelation that at most Buffy suffered a psychic sunburn underscores the problem that Buffy was Buffy; she had not been changed by her resurrection. Buffy hoped to externalize the problem to some malady that attached itself to her as part of her resurrection. Instead we learn that Buffy's problems are internal. As for Spike, I was upended by his revelation of his intent. And so you have not only your multi-episode misdirection but a multi-season one, too, since the resolution does not arrive until "Beneath You." I thought we were lead to believe Spike wanted his chip removed and presto, change-o the demon restores his soul instead of removing the chip. I thought it was a trick on the part of the demon in the cave until "Beneath You" when Spike reveals his real intentions for visiting that demon. My complaint about the soul-instead-of-chip switch is the revelation by writer interview that occurred after "Grave." That was bogus. Call me reactionary, but I expect plot twists to be revealed within the context of the story. As far as I am concerned, any story or character direction revealed outside the story must be ignored. The revelation in "Beneath You" was brilliant drama between Buffy and Spike. The last scene of that episode is memorable because of its power. But I would have preferred the twist to be articulated to the audience during "Grave." That is, Spike asks the demon to "Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves. <em>Restore my soul.</em>" Where the emphasized text is my edit. As it is, the dramatic moment between Buffy and Spike for those lucky enough not to hear about the interview is overloaded with the revelation about Spike's real intent. With regards to the Connor and Cordelia dynamic, the twist regarding Cordelia is, again in my opinion, still in play. We still do not know if it is a real or faux Cordelia. It is possible that Cordelia is, in fact evil. Or Cordelia could be in meat puppet mode where her actions are directed by Jasmine. Or it could be a simulacrum of Cordelia that we have seen and her disappearance in "Sacrifice" is just the end of a conjuror's trick. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-04-29 17:38:19+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Crazy Cat <khlua35001@sneakemail.com>)


salmoneous@aol.com (salmoneous) wrote in news:54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com: > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > .. > .. > .. > .. <snip> > Get the fans wondering what kind of creature Buffy is, then - aha - > it's just sunburn ummm, when did this happen? Crazy <snipped to save bandwidth>

2003-04-29 18:08:50+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net>)


In article <MPG.191853adeee708fd98a07d@netnews.attbi.com>, Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, salmoneous@aol.com wrote in article > <54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com>... > > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > > > .. > > .. > > .. > > .. > > .. > > > > With regards to the Connor and Cordelia dynamic, the twist regarding > Cordelia is, again in my opinion, still in play. We still do not know > if it is a real or faux Cordelia. It is possible that Cordelia is, in > fact evil. Or Cordelia could be in meat puppet mode where her actions > are directed by Jasmine. Or it could be a simulacrum of Cordelia that > we have seen and her disappearance in "Sacrifice" is just the end of a > conjuror's trick. very true. as for misdirections that worked. Skip. All this time we thought he was a force of good when he was not. I'd say that that worked rather well

2003-04-29 18:13:48+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net>)


In article <Jf2dnWpfSJ0lKDOjXTWcpw@comcast.com>, DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "salmoneous" <salmoneous@aol.com> wrote in message > news:54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com... > > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > > > .. > > .. > > .. > > .. > > .. > > > > Both AtS and BtVS have had major storylines this season where ME seems > > to be playing games with the fans. On Angel, have Cordy sleep with > > dimwitboy, get the fans all talking about it, and then reveal that - > > aha - it isn't Cordy. > > It isn't Cordy in the same way that Angelus isn't Angel. Liam was > hoodwinked by his weaknesses, drink and women, into becoming an evil > vampire. Cordelia was hoodwinked by her weaknesses, vanity and > self-absorption, into becoming a demon. wrong. Cordelia's weakness is that she isn't vain and self-centered anymore. She hadn't been for a long time and she was happy without those faults. She had found her true self and couldn't go back to only thinking of herself. Jasmine knew what Cordelia's answer would be. She knew that Cordelia would figure out the demon thing and be willing to do it in order to stay in the fight. > Cordelia, the real Cordelia, used > her sexuality and attractiveness to manipulate men into giving her what she > wanted. More like 'the old Cordelia'.

2003-04-29 18:16:09+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net>)


In article <Jf2dnWpfSJ0lKDOjXTWcpw@comcast.com>, DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "salmoneous" <salmoneous@aol.com> wrote in message > news:54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com... > > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > > > .. > > .. > > .. > > .. > > .. > > > Cordelia, the real Cordelia, used > her sexuality and attractiveness to manipulate men into giving her what she > wanted. that isn't really true. Cordelia hasn't been using her 'sex appeal' to play with Connor (her chief target). She's been using purer tactics of giving him the love he so desperately wanted, at least in the beginning. even the sex scene wasn't all that seductive. it was more 'let me comfort you' than 'come here you hot hunk of a boy'

2003-04-29 18:35:06+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


The only misdirection that really worked for me was when they faked Angel losing his soul in season 3 to trick Faith. I thought that worked pretty good. Every misdirection after that has been handled pretty poorly.

2003-04-29 18:43:50+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Ziggyman <no@way.com>)


"salmoneous" <salmoneous@aol.com> wrote in message news:54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com... > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > .. > .. > .. > .. > .. > > Both AtS and BtVS have had major storylines this season where ME seems > to be playing games with the fans. On Angel, have Cordy sleep with > dimwitboy, get the fans all talking about it, and then reveal that - > aha - it isn't Cordy. On Buffy, have Giles act non-Giles-like and > avoid touching anything, get fans speculating that he is The First, > the - aha - its just Giles. Personally, I thought neither of these > worked well at all. Setup that distracted from the show, and a payoff > that just wasn't worth it. > > Thinking back, I can think of lots of ME attempted misdirection that > fell flat: > > Get the fans thinking Spike gets his chip out, then - aha - he's > really getting a soul > Get the fans wondering what kind of creature Buffy is, then - aha - > it's just sunburn > Get the fans wondering what kind of demon Tara is - aha - she's not a > demon at all > > What I can't think of are situations were ME did misdirection and it > worked. Just to be clear, I think ME does mystery well. Who is Ben and > how is he connected to Glory? It would have been misdirection if it > turned out - psych - that Ben wasn't connected to Glory at all. I also > think ME does single episode misdirection well. I know a lot of people > thought Enemies didn't "play fair" but I loved it. What I can't think > of is a multi-episode misdirection that worked. Anyone? I think the best bit of misdirection they've pulled recently was the ep where Angel was losing his soul. They put us thru an entire ep that turns out was just a dream sequence meant to give Angel his moment of true happiness. Amazing ep IMO.

2003-04-29 18:47:26+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Dan Solomon <dansolo@attbi.com>)


"DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in news:Jf2dnWpfSJ0lKDOjXTWcpw@comcast.com: > > > "salmoneous" <salmoneous@aol.com> wrote in message > news:54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com... >> Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: >> >> .. >> .. >> .. >> .. >> .. >> >> Both AtS and BtVS have had major storylines this season where ME >> seems to be playing games with the fans. On Angel, have Cordy sleep >> with dimwitboy, get the fans all talking about it, and then reveal >> that - aha - it isn't Cordy. > > It isn't Cordy in the same way that Angelus isn't Angel. Liam was > hoodwinked by his weaknesses, drink and women, into becoming an evil > vampire. Cordelia was hoodwinked by her weaknesses, vanity and > self-absorption, into becoming a demon. Cordelia, the real Cordelia, > used her sexuality and attractiveness to manipulate men into giving > her what she wanted. Mostly attention and recognition. Evil Cordelia > does the exact same thing. Cordy/Thing is Cordelia giving way to all > of her worst impulses, granted with a little evil intervention, but > Skip did tell her that becoming a demon had consequences. > Consequences which she never bothered to inquire about. Skip might have been telling the truth about her brain exploding with her next vision. It's not like she had a lot of choice in her decision to become a demon. Vanity was certainly not the reason. -- Dan Solomon

2003-04-29 18:52:21+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Dan Milburn <danielmilburn@hotmail.com>)


On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:18:11 +0100, Growltiger wrote: > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, salmoneous@aol.com wrote in article > <54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com>... >> Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: >> > My complaint about the soul-instead-of-chip switch is the revelation by > writer interview that occurred after "Grave." That was bogus. Call me > reactionary, but I expect plot twists to be revealed within the context > of the story. As far as I am concerned, any story or character > direction revealed outside the story must be ignored. Huh? This was revealed right at the end of 'Grave'. Dan

2003-04-29 19:30:47+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, danielmilburn@hotmail.com wrote in article <FRzra.4532$3b5.36400245@news-text.cableinet.net>... > On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:18:11 +0100, Growltiger wrote: > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, salmoneous@aol.com wrote in article > > <54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com>... > >> Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > >> > > My complaint about the soul-instead-of-chip switch is the revelation by > > writer interview that occurred after "Grave." That was bogus. Call me > > reactionary, but I expect plot twists to be revealed within the context > > of the story. As far as I am concerned, any story or character > > direction revealed outside the story must be ignored. > > Huh? This was revealed right at the end of 'Grave'. The plot twist was Spike went to the demon for his soul and not to have his chip removed. The way I saw the last two episodes, "Two To Go" and "Grave," it appeared to me that Spike wanted to have his chip removed. I grant that the language was ambiguous, but Spike's portrayal pointed to the chip and not the soul. I think, and I know that I am not alone here, that it is a fair interpretation of the final scene that the demon in the cave was tricking Spike. You may not see it that way, but it is a reasonable argument. Not long after "Grave" aired, Jane Espenson appeared on an "internet radio" program and revealed that Spike went to Africa to have his soul restored. Later in the season seven episode "Beneath You," Spike tells Buffy he wanted to have his soul restored. One can argue that Jane Espenson spoiled "Beneath You." Now as a rule, I ignore so-called revelations by authors outside the source because I believe the document must speak for itself. The intent of the author outside of the work is not material to understanding the work. Let the chips fall where they may as readers or viewers debate the intent of the document. Authorial commentary outside the document is just another opinion. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-04-29 20:28:01+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (CC Zona <cczona@nospam.invalid>)


In article <Xns936C8A5FD2274dbredyatt@216.148.227.77>, Crazy Cat <khlua35001@sneakemail.com> wrote: > > Get the fans wondering what kind of creature Buffy is, then - aha - > > it's just sunburn > > ummm, when did this happen? "Bargaining" through "Dead Things". They baited the hook by implying that the resurrection spell was aborted too soon, by juxaposing Buffy with angel imagery, with Spike's discovery that the chip reacted differently to her than other humans, Buffy's general darkness and malaise, the implication that she had developed some BDSM kinks since her return, etc. Finally, Buffy asked Tara to research the ressurection spell to find out why she came back "wrong", and Tara reports back that there's nothing "wrong" with Buffy except for the mystical equivalent of a "cellular sunburn". -- CC

2003-04-29 21:05:17-04:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (TomTraubertsBlues <silentsaregolden@comcast.net>)


"salmoneous" <salmoneous@aol.com> wrote in message news:54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com... > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > .. > .. > .. > .. > .. > > Both AtS and BtVS have had major storylines this season where ME seems > to be playing games with the fans. On Angel, have Cordy sleep with > dimwitboy, get the fans all talking about it, and then reveal that - > aha - it isn't Cordy. On Buffy, have Giles act non-Giles-like and > avoid touching anything, get fans speculating that he is The First, > the - aha - its just Giles. Personally, I thought neither of these > worked well at all. Setup that distracted from the show, and a payoff > that just wasn't worth it. > > Thinking back, I can think of lots of ME attempted misdirection that > fell flat: > > Get the fans thinking Spike gets his chip out, then - aha - he's > really getting a soul > Get the fans wondering what kind of creature Buffy is, then - aha - > it's just sunburn > Get the fans wondering what kind of demon Tara is - aha - she's not a > demon at all > > What I can't think of are situations were ME did misdirection and it > worked. Just to be clear, I think ME does mystery well. Who is Ben and > how is he connected to Glory? It would have been misdirection if it > turned out - psych - that Ben wasn't connected to Glory at all. I also > think ME does single episode misdirection well. I know a lot of people > thought Enemies didn't "play fair" but I loved it. What I can't think > of is a multi-episode misdirection that worked. Anyone? I sort of agree, but I think the reason for that, for me, is that reading the newsgroup brings things up that I wouldn't have thought of. I don't know that I would've even thought that Giles might've been the First if others hadn't speculated about it. Still, I do think these attempts at misdirection don't always work. Not that I could do any better. Mike

2003-04-29 21:42:16-04:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (sam <bobo@hotmail.com>)


joss is just repeating himself,maybe he is written out,this last season of Buffy is sort of a appoligy for season sex err season six.maybe it is time to put a stake both series

2003-04-29 22:13:23+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Ian Merrithew <optimus2861@my-deja.com>)


Joe Curwen <jcurwen@freeonline.com> wrote in news:b8mmi901hhi@drn.newsguy.com: > capped by the extrordinary act of a writer having to give an interview > to tell the audience what the finale script meant (based on Marsters > crude grrr arrgh line readings), was the result of a poor performance > by Marsters. Its a shame. I don't belive that one. I think Marsters played his scenes the way he thought they were leading -- to Spike getting his chip out. Then the writers undercut him at the last minute with the bait-and-switch ending, and ever since, everyone's been backpedaling on Spike's motivations. Sloppy execution by the producers, not by the actor, IMO. -- Ian Merrithew - ADM Systems Engineering ian.merrithew "at" ieee.org

2003-04-29 23:37:16+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:53:33 -0400, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: :> > It isn't Cordy in the same way that Angelus isn't Angel. Gee, you're wrong. Over here we have Jasmine, over there we have Cordelia. Angel can't do that. :But she was so wrapped up in her "Vision :Girl" fantasy thing that she *wanted* to believe the visions were her :destiny, instead of something she accidentally received when Doyle kissed :her goodbye. It wasn't an accident. Cordy has kissed other men and not transferred the visions, even when she tried to. :Cordelia had an opportunity to rid herself of the visions. She could have :given them to Groo who was better equipped to handle them and to help the :helpless, but she didn't. You don't know that Groo was better equipped to handle the visions. Angel certainly wasn't. And while you're on your high horse there, let's remember that Groo wasn't the one making the decisions in Pylea, and I doubt the CoT was into helping the helpless very much. :She didn't even go to Angel when she found out :that the visions were killing her. Angel's a neurologist now? When did that happen? :That's devotion? No, that's arrogance. No, that's keeping her private business private. Arrogance is discounting everyone around you and deciding that your judgement supersedes theirs, so it's okay if you kidnap an infant. :Funny, the gang at A.I. :has done just fine without her being "vision girl" this season. Funny. I seem to recall that were it not for "Vision Girl", Angel would still be shoving quarters into slot machines. Must just be me. Terry

2003-04-30 00:29:21+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (John DiFool <sorry@spammerscrewedme.com>)


On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:08:50 GMT, PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> wrote: > >as for misdirections that worked. Skip. All this time we thought he was >a force of good when he was not. I'd say that that worked rather well That was a no-brainer for me. He is telling Cordy that Angel will be "just fine", when actually, at that exact same moment, he is about to be dropped into the briny deep. Big clue that he isn't being honest about her "ascension"... John DiFool

2003-04-30 01:46:54+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net>)


In article <d76uavg2e1s1reg3sdtj50ikqa5a27fq99@4ax.com>, John DiFool <sorry@spammerscrewedme.com> wrote: > On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:08:50 GMT, PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> > wrote: > > > > > >as for misdirections that worked. Skip. All this time we thought he was > >a force of good when he was not. I'd say that that worked rather well > > That was a no-brainer for me. He is telling Cordy that Angel > will > be "just fine", no he didn't. Cordy came up with that one all on her own.

2003-04-30 11:52:32-04:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Terry McNeal" <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:gm2uav0omp1hq8vfgbp9s6aagpt3o1ovn4@4ax.com... > On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:53:33 -0400, "DarkMagic" > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > :> > It isn't Cordy in the same way that Angelus isn't Angel. > > Gee, you're wrong. Over here we have Jasmine, over there we have > Cordelia. Angel can't do that. > I guess you missed the part where Angel and Angelus duked it out in the alley. > :But she was so wrapped up in her "Vision > :Girl" fantasy thing that she *wanted* to believe the visions were her > :destiny, instead of something she accidentally received when Doyle kissed > :her goodbye. > > It wasn't an accident. Cordy has kissed other men and not transferred > the visions, even when she tried to. > It was an accident. Until Doyle comes back from the dead and says he intended to pass on his "gift" to Cordelia I will never believe otherwise. > :Cordelia had an opportunity to rid herself of the visions. She could have > :given them to Groo who was better equipped to handle them and to help the > :helpless, but she didn't. > > You don't know that Groo was better equipped to handle the visions. Yeah, I do. Groo is a demon, the visions wouldn't kill him, and he's a powerful warrior. He could do much of the helping of the helpless on his own without relying on Angel. > Angel certainly wasn't. And while you're on your high horse there, > let's remember that Groo wasn't the one making the decisions in Pylea, > and I doubt the CoT was into helping the helpless very much. > Neither is Cordelia, or she might have noticed that her visions were no longer helping any helpless and wondered why that was. > :She didn't even go to Angel when she found out > :that the visions were killing her. > > Angel's a neurologist now? When did that happen? > Oh, please, Terry. I expect that kind of comment from Stephen, not you. Obviously, if Angel knew that keeping the visions would cost Cordelia her life Angel would have tried moving heaven and earth to help her get rid of them. One would think Cordelia would want to live enough that she would at least be interested in having him try. Death would have been the best result, btw, of her brain damage. People who can't walk, talk, or remember their friends faces aren't enjoying much quality life. > :That's devotion? No, that's arrogance. > > No, that's keeping her private business private. Arrogance is > discounting everyone around you and deciding that your judgement > supersedes theirs, so it's okay if you kidnap an infant. > The visions aren't her private business and never have been. They exist, supposedly, for the sole purpose of identifying the helpless in need of supernatural assistance. Cordelia can't do much on her own so sharing the visions with Angel is mandatory. More to the point, hiding the fact that you have herpes from your friends and family is keeping private business private, failing to disclose a life threatening illness that at it's best will result in a quick death and at worst will turn you into a vegtable in need of constant, round the clock care is a heinous sin of omission. > :Funny, the gang at A.I. > :has done just fine without her being "vision girl" this season. > > Funny. I seem to recall that were it not for "Vision Girl", Angel > would still be shoving quarters into slot machines. Must just be me. > You're a hopeless Cordelia-o-phile. We don't know that Cordelia had anything to do with that incident. She might have, and then she might not have. Even if she did, it was probably set-up by Jasmine all along as the best way of launching her out of cloud city. I like Cordelia, always have. She's smart, she's got more common sense than all of the other characters combined, she's genuine, she's honest, and she's practical. But, she has faults. Lots of them. Just like every other character on the show. And just like every other character on the show evil has found a way to exploit her worst faults. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-30 13:54:21+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Dan Milburn <danielmilburn@hotmail.com>)


On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:30:47 +0100, Growltiger wrote: > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, danielmilburn@hotmail.com wrote in > article <FRzra.4532$3b5.36400245@news-text.cableinet.net>... >> On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:18:11 +0100, Growltiger wrote: >> >> > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, salmoneous@aol.com wrote in >> > article <54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com>... >> >> Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: >> >> >> > My complaint about the soul-instead-of-chip switch is the revelation >> > by writer interview that occurred after "Grave." That was bogus. >> > Call me reactionary, but I expect plot twists to be revealed within >> > the context of the story. As far as I am concerned, any story or >> > character direction revealed outside the story must be ignored. >> >> Huh? This was revealed right at the end of 'Grave'. > > The plot twist was Spike went to the demon for his soul and not to have > his chip removed. The way I saw the last two episodes, "Two To Go" and > "Grave," it appeared to me that Spike wanted to have his chip removed. I > grant that the language was ambiguous, but Spike's portrayal pointed to > the chip and not the soul. I think, and I know that I am not alone > here, that it is a fair interpretation of the final scene that the demon > in the cave was tricking Spike. You may not see it that way, but it is > a reasonable argument. > > Not long after "Grave" aired, Jane Espenson appeared on an "internet > radio" program and revealed that Spike went to Africa to have his soul > restored. Later in the season seven episode "Beneath You," Spike tells > Buffy he wanted to have his soul restored. One can argue that Jane > Espenson spoiled "Beneath You." So the spoiler was not that Spike got his soul back, but that Spike *wanted* to get his soul back. I understand now. Dan

2003-05-04 02:13:41+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (AE Jabbour <aej17DELETEME@comcast.net>)


In alt.tv.angel PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> wrote: [snip] > as for misdirections that worked. Skip. All this time we thought he was > a force of good when he was not. I'd say that that worked rather well I did not think he was a force for good. Well, actually, I thought that either he was lying the entire time, and he was a force for evil, or that he was a force for good in a story which made absolutely no sense in that light. I didn't like the character anyway, and I didn't like what he represented in the storytelling. But, "Birthday" never made ANY sense to me at all. So, the only way it could be at least minimally pieced together is to have assumed that Skip was being entirely disingenuous the whole time, and working on his own agenda. I had lost a lot of faith in the writers' ability to tell good stories by then (and have lost even more now) so that it didn't really matter to me one way or another. -- A.E. Jabbour "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind." Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

2003-05-04 05:15:04-07:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (DanielArmato@aol.com)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191853adeee708fd98a07d@netnews.attbi.com>... > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, salmoneous@aol.com wrote in article > <54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com>... > > Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > > > .. > > .. > > .. > > .. > > .. > > > And I contend that the misdirection worked on Buffy coming back wrong. > We were lead to believe that Buffy came back wrong. What we learned was > that Buffy left wrong. Her leap of the tower may have had heroic > consequences, but her motivations were not all heroic. When did we learn this? I would say this is pure opinion here. Her motivations were to save Dawn and save the world. Any notion that she was just really looking for a way to kill herself is pure conjecture. The revelation > that at most Buffy suffered a psychic sunburn underscores the problem > that Buffy was Buffy; she had not been changed by her resurrection. > Buffy hoped to externalize the problem to some malady that attached > itself to her as part of her resurrection. Instead we learn that > Buffy's problems are internal. > I'd argue that they were caused mostly by her situation. She was physically herself but had trouble adapting to the un-heavenly world. She was hoping that she wasn't herself since she couldn't believe what had become of her life---it was a shock to us, too. It took a whole season to get over it. Joss said her resurrection wouldn't be easy.......and boy was he right.

2003-05-08 11:38:56-04:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake samjames1NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Sam James): >Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > >>Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, salmoneous@aol.com wrote in article >><54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com>... >>> Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > >>As for Spike, I was upended by his revelation of his intent. And so you >>have not only your multi-episode misdirection but a multi-season one, >>too, since the resolution does not arrive until "Beneath You." I >>thought we were lead to believe Spike wanted his chip removed and >>presto, change-o the demon restores his soul instead of removing the >>chip. I thought it was a trick on the part of the demon in the cave >>until "Beneath You" when Spike reveals his real intentions for visiting >>that demon. > >As senseless as it maybe to have a demon who puts souls into vampires, >it is even less plausible for there to be a demon who removes chips >from vampire brains. I never thought Spike would go to Africa to get >his chip removed when all he had to do was find a way to threaten a >brain surgeon here in the states. > >Moreover, it made no sense for Spike to want the chip removed "So >Buffy can get what she deserves." when Spike has been capable of >hitting her with the chip in place. I don't think that it was done well, but the thing is, it doesn't makes sense only if you think that "what she deserves" is a good sock on the jaw. It at least makes sense if you think that she deserves someone who loves her, and that she can really believe in that love. Truly though, I think Spike was really after what he believes *he* deserves: to be loved by Buffy. Which couldn't happen without him having a soul. Which maybe can't happen anyway. -- Q: How can you tell Ari Fleischer is lying? A: His lips are moving.

2003-05-08 14:01:07+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (samjames1NOSPAM@yahoo.com)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: >Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, salmoneous@aol.com wrote in article ><54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com>... >> Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: >As for Spike, I was upended by his revelation of his intent. And so you >have not only your multi-episode misdirection but a multi-season one, >too, since the resolution does not arrive until "Beneath You." I >thought we were lead to believe Spike wanted his chip removed and >presto, change-o the demon restores his soul instead of removing the >chip. I thought it was a trick on the part of the demon in the cave >until "Beneath You" when Spike reveals his real intentions for visiting >that demon. As senseless as it maybe to have a demon who puts souls into vampires, it is even less plausible for there to be a demon who removes chips from vampire brains. I never thought Spike would go to Africa to get his chip removed when all he had to do was find a way to threaten a brain surgeon here in the states. Moreover, it made no sense for Spike to want the chip removed "So Buffy can get what she deserves." when Spike has been capable of hitting her with the chip in place.

2003-05-08 15:54:15+00:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, samjames1NOSPAM@yahoo.com wrote in article <3eb9dca0.55037148@news.fu-berlin.de>... > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > > >Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, salmoneous@aol.com wrote in article > ><54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com>... > >> Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: > > >As for Spike, I was upended by his revelation of his intent. And so you > >have not only your multi-episode misdirection but a multi-season one, > >too, since the resolution does not arrive until "Beneath You." I > >thought we were lead to believe Spike wanted his chip removed and > >presto, change-o the demon restores his soul instead of removing the > >chip. I thought it was a trick on the part of the demon in the cave > >until "Beneath You" when Spike reveals his real intentions for visiting > >that demon. > > As senseless as it maybe to have a demon who puts souls into vampires, > it is even less plausible for there to be a demon who removes chips > from vampire brains. I never thought Spike would go to Africa to get > his chip removed when all he had to do was find a way to threaten a > brain surgeon here in the states. > > Moreover, it made no sense for Spike to want the chip removed "So > Buffy can get what she deserves." when Spike has been capable of > hitting her with the chip in place. > Assume for a moment that Spike wanted the chip removed so that he could be evil again. Giving Buffy what she deserves could then include murdering her friends in the most gruesome way possible. That would require the removal of the behavior inhibitor. Sending Spike to Africa was a device to get him as far away as possible from Sunnydale. I suppose the writers could have just as well sent him to Los Angeles or some other nearby climb. But having him on another continent means it was not feasible for him to become involved with the emergence of Darth Rosenberg. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-09 04:27:57-07:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (David Glenn Misner <kidmiracleman@netzon.net>)


On Thu, 08 May 2003 11:38:56 -0400, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wroth: >Thus spake samjames1NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Sam James): > >>Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: >> >>>Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, salmoneous@aol.com wrote in article >>><54daff87.0304290806.53c9268a@posting.google.com>... >>>> Contains spoilers for both shows through current US airdates: >> >>>As for Spike, I was upended by his revelation of his intent. And so you >>>have not only your multi-episode misdirection but a multi-season one, >>>too, since the resolution does not arrive until "Beneath You." I >>>thought we were lead to believe Spike wanted his chip removed and >>>presto, change-o the demon restores his soul instead of removing the >>>chip. I thought it was a trick on the part of the demon in the cave >>>until "Beneath You" when Spike reveals his real intentions for visiting >>>that demon. >> >>As senseless as it maybe to have a demon who puts souls into vampires, >>it is even less plausible for there to be a demon who removes chips >>from vampire brains. I never thought Spike would go to Africa to get >>his chip removed when all he had to do was find a way to threaten a >>brain surgeon here in the states. >> >>Moreover, it made no sense for Spike to want the chip removed "So >>Buffy can get what she deserves." when Spike has been capable of >>hitting her with the chip in place. > >I don't think that it was done well, but the thing is, it doesn't >makes sense only if you think that "what she deserves" is a good sock >on the jaw. It at least makes sense if you think that she deserves >someone who loves her, and that she can really believe in that love. > >Truly though, I think Spike was really after what he believes *he* >deserves: to be loved by Buffy. Which couldn't happen without him >having a soul. Which maybe can't happen anyway. But why would spike want his soul back?? I do not ever remember Angelus ever wanting his soul back. It does not make any sense

2003-05-09 11:30:56-04:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake David Glenn Misner <kidmiracleman@netzon.net>: >On Thu, 08 May 2003 11:38:56 -0400, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wroth: > >>Thus spake samjames1NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Sam James): >> >>>Moreover, it made no sense for Spike to want the chip removed "So >>>Buffy can get what she deserves." when Spike has been capable of >>>hitting her with the chip in place. >> >>I don't think that it was done well, but the thing is, it doesn't >>makes sense only if you think that "what she deserves" is a good sock >>on the jaw. It at least makes sense if you think that she deserves >>someone who loves her, and that she can really believe in that love. >> >>Truly though, I think Spike was really after what he believes *he* >>deserves: to be loved by Buffy. Which couldn't happen without him >>having a soul. Which maybe can't happen anyway. > > >But why would spike want his soul back?? I do not ever remember >Angelus ever wanting his soul back. It does not make any sense Read the paragraph above your question one more time :) Angelus never loved nor wanted to be loved. I wouldn't call what he had with Darla love, would you? But the comparison between the two guys is not the point. I'm not sure it really makes sense anyway. Much too late for that now though. -- Q: How can you tell Ari Fleischer is lying? A: His lips are moving.

2003-05-09 15:54:15-07:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (David Glenn Misner <kidmiracleman@netzon.net>)


On Fri, 09 May 2003 11:30:56 -0400, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wroth: >Thus spake David Glenn Misner <kidmiracleman@netzon.net>: > >>On Thu, 08 May 2003 11:38:56 -0400, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wroth: >> >>>Thus spake samjames1NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Sam James): >>> > >>>>Moreover, it made no sense for Spike to want the chip removed "So >>>>Buffy can get what she deserves." when Spike has been capable of >>>>hitting her with the chip in place. >>> >>>I don't think that it was done well, but the thing is, it doesn't >>>makes sense only if you think that "what she deserves" is a good sock >>>on the jaw. It at least makes sense if you think that she deserves >>>someone who loves her, and that she can really believe in that love. >>> >>>Truly though, I think Spike was really after what he believes *he* >>>deserves: to be loved by Buffy. Which couldn't happen without him >>>having a soul. Which maybe can't happen anyway. >> >> >>But why would spike want his soul back?? I do not ever remember >>Angelus ever wanting his soul back. It does not make any sense > > >Read the paragraph above your question one more time :) > >Angelus never loved nor wanted to be loved. I wouldn't call what he >had with Darla love, would you? But the comparison between the two >guys is not the point. > >I'm not sure it really makes sense anyway. Much too late for that now >though. I am making it the point. They are both demons. Demons are evil. Spike has shown time and time again how evil he is. He loved being evil and torturing and killing people. The question is what changed??

2003-05-09 18:34:05-07:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (reldevik@usa.net)


David Glenn Misner <kidmiracleman@netzon.net> wrote in message news:<a8cobvo0m8qgp58km8v725cmnugi1nctfn@4ax.com>... > On Fri, 09 May 2003 11:30:56 -0400, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wroth: > > >Thus spake David Glenn Misner <kidmiracleman@netzon.net>: > > > >>On Thu, 08 May 2003 11:38:56 -0400, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wroth: > >> > >>>Thus spake samjames1NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Sam James): > >>> > > >>>>Moreover, it made no sense for Spike to want the chip removed "So > >>>>Buffy can get what she deserves." when Spike has been capable of > >>>>hitting her with the chip in place. > >>> > >>>I don't think that it was done well, but the thing is, it doesn't > >>>makes sense only if you think that "what she deserves" is a good sock > >>>on the jaw. It at least makes sense if you think that she deserves > >>>someone who loves her, and that she can really believe in that love. > >>> > >>>Truly though, I think Spike was really after what he believes *he* > >>>deserves: to be loved by Buffy. Which couldn't happen without him > >>>having a soul. Which maybe can't happen anyway. > >> > >> > >>But why would spike want his soul back?? I do not ever remember > >>Angelus ever wanting his soul back. It does not make any sense > > > > > >Read the paragraph above your question one more time :) > > > >Angelus never loved nor wanted to be loved. I wouldn't call what he > >had with Darla love, would you? But the comparison between the two > >guys is not the point. > > > >I'm not sure it really makes sense anyway. Much too late for that now > >though. > > > I am making it the point. They are both demons. Demons are evil. > Spike has shown time and time again how evil he is. He loved being > evil and torturing and killing people. The question is what changed?? --Do you remember the season 2 episode Innocence? In that episode, the Judge touched Angelus and couldn't burn him, because Angelus was "clean of humanity." However, it was made clear that the Judge could have burned Spike and Dru if he had touched them. Why? Because they "stink of humanity." They "share affection and jealousy." Dalton also was burned because he loved books and reading. Vampires vary in the degree to which they retain human feelings, such as the love of books or the love of another person. Love of individuals can still remain even while the vampire is acting as a ruthless predator upon other indivuals whom he doesn't care about. Spike was in love with Drusilla for a very long time. Then we saw Spike fall in love with Buffy, and also begin to care about Buffy's family (Joyce and Dawn). You did see those episodes in season 5, didn't you? You did see how Spike devotedly cared for Dawn after Buffy's death (Bargaining, season 6)? How is any of this news to you. Spike voluntarily seeking a soul is extraordinary, but it's of a piece with everything I outlined above. It also fits in well with the recent episode Lies My Parents Told Me, in which we see how the newly-vamped William is still concerned about his mother and wants to give her the "gift" of eternal health and vigor (which is how he saw vampirism). At the same time, in 1880, VampWilliam was talking about terrorizing Europe and bathing in victims' blood. He was ruthless toward them, but he still cared about his sickly Mum. But then when she was vamped she turned out to be a demon as nasty, and as clean of humanity, as Angelus. It was just one of those random things. If you've been watching the episodes I mentioned closely over the last five years, this really shouldn't be any news to you. Clairel

2003-05-09 23:50:43-04:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake David Glenn Misner <kidmiracleman@netzon.net>: >On Fri, 09 May 2003 11:30:56 -0400, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wroth: > >>Thus spake David Glenn Misner <kidmiracleman@netzon.net>: >> >>>On Thu, 08 May 2003 11:38:56 -0400, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wroth: >>> >>>>Thus spake samjames1NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Sam James): >>>> >> >>>>>Moreover, it made no sense for Spike to want the chip removed "So >>>>>Buffy can get what she deserves." when Spike has been capable of >>>>>hitting her with the chip in place. >>>> >>>>I don't think that it was done well, but the thing is, it doesn't >>>>makes sense only if you think that "what she deserves" is a good sock >>>>on the jaw. It at least makes sense if you think that she deserves >>>>someone who loves her, and that she can really believe in that love. >>>> >>>>Truly though, I think Spike was really after what he believes *he* >>>>deserves: to be loved by Buffy. Which couldn't happen without him >>>>having a soul. Which maybe can't happen anyway. >>> >>> >>>But why would spike want his soul back?? I do not ever remember >>>Angelus ever wanting his soul back. It does not make any sense >> >> >>Read the paragraph above your question one more time :) >> >>Angelus never loved nor wanted to be loved. I wouldn't call what he >>had with Darla love, would you? But the comparison between the two >>guys is not the point. >> >>I'm not sure it really makes sense anyway. Much too late for that now >>though. > > >I am making it the point. They are both demons. Demons are evil. >Spike has shown time and time again how evil he is. He loved being >evil and torturing and killing people. The question is what changed?? I did my best to answer your questions but I guess it just doesn't satisfy. Clairel said it much better than I can. -- Q: How can you tell Ari Fleischer is lying? A: His lips are moving.

2003-05-16 14:47:34-07:00 - Re: ME Does Misdirection ..... Badly? - (reldevik@usa.net)


Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<rctobv0ir74qbg9ijqa7g0ehdtn5kgncsr@4ax.com>... > Thus spake David Glenn Misner <kidmiracleman@netzon.net>: > > >On Fri, 09 May 2003 11:30:56 -0400, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wroth: > > > >>Thus spake David Glenn Misner <kidmiracleman@netzon.net>: > >> > >>>On Thu, 08 May 2003 11:38:56 -0400, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wroth: > >>> > >>>>Thus spake samjames1NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Sam James): > >>>> > > >>>>>Moreover, it made no sense for Spike to want the chip removed "So > >>>>>Buffy can get what she deserves." when Spike has been capable of > >>>>>hitting her with the chip in place. > >>>> > >>>>I don't think that it was done well, but the thing is, it doesn't > >>>>makes sense only if you think that "what she deserves" is a good sock > >>>>on the jaw. It at least makes sense if you think that she deserves > >>>>someone who loves her, and that she can really believe in that love. > >>>> > >>>>Truly though, I think Spike was really after what he believes *he* > >>>>deserves: to be loved by Buffy. Which couldn't happen without him > >>>>having a soul. Which maybe can't happen anyway. > >>> > >>> > >>>But why would spike want his soul back?? I do not ever remember > >>>Angelus ever wanting his soul back. It does not make any sense > >> > >> > >>Read the paragraph above your question one more time :) > >> > >>Angelus never loved nor wanted to be loved. I wouldn't call what he > >>had with Darla love, would you? But the comparison between the two > >>guys is not the point. > >> > >>I'm not sure it really makes sense anyway. Much too late for that now > >>though. > > > > > >I am making it the point. They are both demons. Demons are evil. > >Spike has shown time and time again how evil he is. He loved being > >evil and torturing and killing people. The question is what changed?? > > > I did my best to answer your questions but I guess it just doesn't > satisfy. Clairel said it much better than I can. --Thanks for the kind words, Ebie. Isn't it odd how people take the trouble to post here but don't take the trouble to pay attention to what's on screen? Clairel