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2003-03-26 21:42:45-08:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>, on or about Thu, 27 Mar 2003 01:51:19 GMT, did you or did you not state: >Avast, thar be episode spoilers below! > > >Look down. > > >Further. > > >Look waaaay down. > > >Here we go. > > >On the Electro Girl front, I liked Gunn's confession to Gwen Raden that >he has spent the past year in a turgid, supernatural soap opera. The >truth hurts. Yes, it does. But that line shattered my suspension of disbelief. It comes on top of numerous similar self-referential lines put into the characters' mouths by the writers. "Yes, we know this story makes no sense" or "Yes, we're showing blatant hypocrisy in how we deal with the same behavior in, say, Spike vs well, anyone." So why does ME keep making these self-referential cracks about how badly the characters are acting, and how stupid the plots are instead of NOT WRITING CRAP? -- "It will let you do things nobody else can do, see things nobody else can see." "_Real_ things?" --Egg Shen and Jack Burton

2003-03-26 22:37:14-06:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <MPG.18ebf8f3d18a9b91989ed3@netnews.attbi.com>, Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > At last, some exposition on the timeline. Gunn says it has been "a > couple of weeks" since Team Angel brought forth Angelus (as well as the > length of time that Cordelia claims to have known she was pregnant). > > This episodes sports three, count them, three writers: Jeffrey Bell, > Sarah Fain & Elizabeth Craft. So did "Calvary" (Jeffrey Bell, Steven S. DeKnight and Mere Smith) and "Release" (Steven S. DeKnight, Elizabeth Craft and Sarah Fain).

2003-03-27 01:51:19+00:00 - Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Avast, thar be episode spoilers below! Look down. Further. Look waaaay down. Here we go. At last, some exposition on the timeline. Gunn says it has been "a couple of weeks" since Team Angel brought forth Angelus (as well as the length of time that Cordelia claims to have known she was pregnant). This episodes sports three, count them, three writers: Jeffrey Bell, Sarah Fain & Elizabeth Craft. I suppose Bell handled the Angel Investigation story and Fain & Craft served up the Electro Girl story. Angel offers Wes condolences and apologizes for Angelus' defilement of Lilah's corpse, with the emphasis on corpse. He says the Beast did it and then he rallies the team to go after the Beast's master. Connor is starting to have doubts about Cordelia. He sees the lie about Willow opening up hell dimensions for what it is. He sees the error of attempting to kill Angel. Gasp! Could it be that Cordelia is not always right? Cordelia's response is that Connor just has to believe that everything happens for a reason and to keep the faith in her and their baby. I did not do justice to the scene, since the dialog has a genuine spider to the fly feel to it. I would like to scream at him "wake up," but he is so lost in Cordelia's thrall that it would do little good. Wes now has time to mourn Lilah's passing. There is a touching moment with Fred and him in research mode where Wes confesses the need for contact, to hold hands, despite being caught in the middle of a war. Wes & Lilah were on different sides of that war, but the contact was still meaningful. On the Electro Girl front, I liked Gunn's confession to Gwen Raden that he has spent the past year in a turgid, supernatural soap opera. The truth hurts. Gunn needs some release, and Gwen is just the girl to provide it in the heist caper plot. It is strangely appropriate that we find that the reason for the caper is that Gwen, too, needs some release, and Gunn more than fills the bill. She plays him for a chump, but he proves his mettle. The point of the heist was to steal a device which allows Gwen to hold hands and enjoy other human contact. A bit heavy handed, but the moment of tender honesty still echoes well the scene between Wes & Fred. And so a new ship sets sail. There is an amusing moment where Cordelia offers a mock confession to Angel that explains with great precision her involvement in all that goes wrong. Yet Angel fails to catch on, or does he? Truth be told, the other story in this yarn is that Angel is not as dumb as he looks. His comments on the cheesy voice of the Master strikes an unpleasant chord with Cordelia. He sets up Cordelia and springs the trap that brings her deception to an end. Wes, Fred, both packing iron of a sort that Charlton Heston would approve, & Lorne, with his Magic 8-Ball, are all on hand in the final tableau. So the big revelation of this episode is something the audience has known for some time: Cordelia is the Master. Connor has his doubts, but he is loyal to the future mother of his child. He was not in on the trap, but Angel has no doubt figured that a divide and conquer strategy is appropriate here. No doubt, that shoe will drop in the next episode of Angel. In the meantime, we can ponder: what in the world Angel plans to do with Cordelia; how Connor will handle all this; whether Gunn confesses to Fred his tryst with Gwen; and whether said confession, if it is given, will make any difference since Fred and Wes appear to be getting close. Anyone for a turgid, supernatural soap opera? If so, then stay tuned for the next installment of Angel. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-27 03:20:46+00:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (CC Zona <cczona@nospam.invalid>)


In article <MPG.18ebf8f3d18a9b91989ed3@netnews.attbi.com>, Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > In the meantime, we can ponder: what in the world Angel plans to do > with Cordelia; how Connor will handle all this; whether Gunn confesses > to Fred his tryst with Gwen; and whether said confession, if it is > given, will make any difference since Fred and Wes appear to be getting > close. Uh, what business is it of Fred's (let alone Wesley's) what Gunn does with Gwen? Didn't the F/G relationship finally, mercifully, break up a few episode back? I suspect Connor will take this surprisingly well. He was already starting to realize that Cordy was not as saintly as he imagined. He may be pitifully naive, but he's still not blind. Plus, underneath all the defensive bluster, I think he's as creeped out by the pregnancy as everyone else. As for Cordy's fate, well it'sa dan shame that Faith is so badly needed in Sunnydale, because it sure would have been fun to see her face off against BadBadPreggersCordy. -- CC

2003-03-27 03:37:21+00:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, cczona@nospam.invalid wrote in article <cczona-275C96.19204626032003@netnews.attbi.com>... > In article <MPG.18ebf8f3d18a9b91989ed3@netnews.attbi.com>, > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > > > In the meantime, we can ponder: what in the world Angel plans to do > > with Cordelia; how Connor will handle all this; whether Gunn confesses > > to Fred his tryst with Gwen; and whether said confession, if it is > > given, will make any difference since Fred and Wes appear to be getting > > close. > > Uh, what business is it of Fred's (let alone Wesley's) what Gunn does with > Gwen? Didn't the F/G relationship finally, mercifully, break up a few > episode back? > > I suspect Connor will take this surprisingly well. He was already starting > to realize that Cordy was not as saintly as he imagined. He may be > pitifully naive, but he's still not blind. Plus, underneath all the > defensive bluster, I think he's as creeped out by the pregnancy as everyone > else. > > As for Cordy's fate, well it'sa dan shame that Faith is so badly needed in > Sunnydale, because it sure would have been fun to see her face off against > BadBadPreggersCordy. > > Nope, although Gunn and Fred have been chilly with one another as of late. I guess it depends on how one defines "over." I confess that I am not a shipping expert so I may have it all wrong, so consider the source. I agree that Connor is not blind, but if he believes the baby is his, and since he has nothing in Los Angeles which he will call his own, I expect that he will become a wild card. And as for Cordelia, they had her surrounded but I suspect she will not go quietly. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-27 05:07:19+00:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (Ard Rhi <ardrhi>)


"CC Zona" <cczona@nospam.invalid> wrote in message news:cczona-275C96.19204626032003@netnews.attbi.com... > In article <MPG.18ebf8f3d18a9b91989ed3@netnews.attbi.com>, > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > > > In the meantime, we can ponder: what in the world Angel plans to do > > with Cordelia; how Connor will handle all this; whether Gunn confesses > > to Fred his tryst with Gwen; and whether said confession, if it is > > given, will make any difference since Fred and Wes appear to be getting > > close. > > Uh, what business is it of Fred's (let alone Wesley's) what Gunn does with > Gwen? Didn't the F/G relationship finally, mercifully, break up a few > episode back? Nope. Fred apologized and agreed that she should've told Wesley nothing was going to happen. So it seems that she FINALLY made her choice. While things may not be back on quite as hot as they were, they definitely seemed to be hot enough until Gunn decided to de-virginize Gwen. > I suspect Connor will take this surprisingly well. He was already starting > to realize that Cordy was not as saintly as he imagined. He may be > pitifully naive, but he's still not blind. Plus, underneath all the > defensive bluster, I think he's as creeped out by the pregnancy as everyone > else. If Connor has half a brain cell, he'll ask himself what the odds are that evil Cordy lied to him about his part in her child. Especially after he seems to have lost faith in her righteousness already. On the other hand, the idea he MIGHT be a father and his child could be in danger can still play a role. > As for Cordy's fate, well it'sa dan shame that Faith is so badly needed in > Sunnydale, because it sure would have been fun to see her face off against > BadBadPreggersCordy. > I would've preferred Willow versus Cordy. No interruptions from Connor this time... Ard Rhi

2003-03-27 05:45:48-08:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (kenm47@ix.netcom.com)


Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com> wrote in message news:<kl358v8gqhnl50blehbmqijsno9vuvrmk5@4ax.com>... > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>, on or about Thu, 27 Mar 2003 > 01:51:19 GMT, did you or did you not state: > > >Avast, thar be episode spoilers below! > > > > > >Look down. > > > > > >Further. > > > > > >Look waaaay down. > > > > > >Here we go. > > > > > >On the Electro Girl front, I liked Gunn's confession to Gwen Raden that > >he has spent the past year in a turgid, supernatural soap opera. The > >truth hurts. > > Yes, it does. But that line shattered my suspension of disbelief. It > comes on top of numerous similar self-referential lines put into the > characters' mouths by the writers. "Yes, we know this story makes no > sense" or "Yes, we're showing blatant hypocrisy in how we deal with > the same behavior in, say, Spike vs well, anyone." > > So why does ME keep making these self-referential cracks about how > badly the characters are acting, and how stupid the plots are instead > of NOT WRITING CRAP? Or Connor staring into the camera and saying: "I know none of you like me"? Because the creative folks are now way full of themselves is my guess. They think they've managed to write an entire season around an enexpected (maybe not--maybe when she went on hiatus last year she told them was full throttle on her getting pregs) very pregnant lead and pulled it off. Well, time will tell. Something tells me there's an unpainted corner filled with writers waiting for the surrounding paint to dry. But hey! They can always razzle dazzle us, right? Some more touches of attractive female nudity, and who cares right? Or maybe I should say they can always hocus pocus us and produce some magical get out of jail card yet to be played. They've got my attention. I'm just not expecting they'll carry it off without a lot to bitch about here and in the Buffy NG. As some would say, well there's the fun. Ken

2003-03-27 06:13:47+00:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (sweick@aol.com)


Mark Jones sinanju@pacifier.com wrote: > >So why does ME keep making these self-referential cracks about how >badly the characters are acting, and how stupid the plots are instead >of NOT WRITING CRAP? Cause then you wouldn't be bitching about it on the newsgroup, and that would spoil their fun? Stephen Weick

2003-03-27 07:37:35-08:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (salmoneous@aol.com)


> Nope, although Gunn and Fred have been chilly with one another as of > late. So are we going to get Gunn whining that they were on a break? PS - Nice writup

2003-03-27 09:20:05-05:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (Robert Whelan <rwhelan@amanda.dorsai.org>)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, SWeick wrote: > Mark Jones sinanju@pacifier.com wrote: > > > > >So why does ME keep making these self-referential cracks about how > >badly the characters are acting, and how stupid the plots are instead > >of NOT WRITING CRAP? > > Cause then you wouldn't be bitching about it on the newsgroup, > and that would spoil their fun? Well, when Wesley says "It feels like I've been trapped in a bad supernatural soap-opera" it seems to me the writers are apologizing, and announcing an intent to do better. Which they have been.

2003-03-27 17:26:27-08:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com>)


Robert Whelan wrote: > > > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, SWeick wrote: > > >>Mark Jones sinanju@pacifier.com wrote: >> >> >>>So why does ME keep making these self-referential cracks about how >>>badly the characters are acting, and how stupid the plots are instead >>>of NOT WRITING CRAP? >> >>Cause then you wouldn't be bitching about it on the newsgroup, >>and that would spoil their fun? > > > Well, when Wesley says "It feels like I've been trapped in a bad > supernatural soap-opera" it seems to me the writers are apologizing, > and announcing an intent to do better. Which they have been. It was Gunn, not Wesley. And I'd _like_ to think that they're apologizing for the bad characterization and nonsensical plotting. But it's hard to believe that when they keep right on shoveling it. Angel is doing considerably better on that front than Buffy, but they're still doing it.

2003-03-27 18:54:39-06:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <Pine.GSO.4.53.0303270919020.9323@amanda.dorsai.org>, Robert Whelan <rwhelan@amanda.dorsai.org> wrote: > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, SWeick wrote: > > > Mark Jones sinanju@pacifier.com wrote: > > > > > > > >So why does ME keep making these self-referential cracks about how > > >badly the characters are acting, and how stupid the plots are instead > > >of NOT WRITING CRAP? > > > > Cause then you wouldn't be bitching about it on the newsgroup, > > and that would spoil their fun? > > Well, when Wesley says "It feels like I've been trapped in a bad > supernatural soap-opera" it seems to me the writers are apologizing, > and announcing an intent to do better. Okay, but how does it make you feel when Gunn says that?

2003-03-27 18:56:02+00:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (indigoace@aolxxx.com)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 21:42:45 -0800, Mark Jones <sinanju@pacifier.com> wrote: >Yes, it does. But that line shattered my suspension of disbelief. It >comes on top of numerous similar self-referential lines put into the >characters' mouths by the writers. "Yes, we know this story makes no >sense" or "Yes, we're showing blatant hypocrisy in how we deal with >the same behavior in, say, Spike vs well, anyone." > >So why does ME keep making these self-referential cracks about how >badly the characters are acting, and how stupid the plots are instead >of NOT WRITING CRAP? I took it as a prime example of the following-- <<Signal from Fred A comic form of the "Dischism" in which the author's subconscious, alarmed by the poor quality of the work, makes unwitting critical comments: "This doesn't make sense." "This is really boring." "This sounds like a bad movie." (Attr. Damon Knight) >> from http://www.sfwa.org/writing/turkeycity.html -- Anne Warfield indigoace at goodsol period com http://www.goodsol.com/cats/

2003-03-27 23:58:45+00:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (Terry McNeal <tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com>)


On 27 Mar 2003 06:13:47 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: :Mark Jones sinanju@pacifier.com wrote: : :> :>So why does ME keep making these self-referential cracks about how :>badly the characters are acting, and how stupid the plots are instead :>of NOT WRITING CRAP? : :Cause then you wouldn't be bitching about it on the newsgroup, :and that would spoil their fun? Well, isn't it nice of ME to write crap just so we have something to bitch about. Oh wait, for *their* fun? Never mind. Terry

2003-03-28 05:23:00+00:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (sweick@aol.com)


Robert Whelan rwhelan@amanda.dorsai.org wrote: >On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, SWeick wrote: > >> Mark Jones sinanju@pacifier.com wrote: >> >> > >> >So why does ME keep making these self-referential cracks about how >> >badly the characters are acting, and how stupid the plots are instead >> >of NOT WRITING CRAP? >> >> Cause then you wouldn't be bitching about it on the newsgroup, >> and that would spoil their fun? > >Well, when Wesley says "It feels like I've been trapped in a bad >supernatural soap-opera" it seems to me the writers are apologizing, >and announcing an intent to do better. Well, the first step is to admit the problem. So will all of ME go on a twelve step program? >Which they have been. So when do they apologize for the Cordy/Connor thang? Stephen Weick

2003-03-28 05:25:15+00:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (sweick@aol.com)


Terry McNeal tymcneal@remove.this.hotmail.com wrote: > >On 27 Mar 2003 06:13:47 GMT, sweick@aol.com (SWeick) wrote: > >:Mark Jones sinanju@pacifier.com wrote: >: >:> >:>So why does ME keep making these self-referential cracks about how >:>badly the characters are acting, and how stupid the plots are instead >:>of NOT WRITING CRAP? >: >:Cause then you wouldn't be bitching about it on the newsgroup, >:and that would spoil their fun? > >Well, isn't it nice of ME to write crap just so we have something to >bitch about. Well, it passes the time. >Oh wait, for *their* fun? > >Never mind. Oh they mind it. Or mine it for all it's worth. :-) (Sick bastards.) Stephen Weick

2003-03-28 13:33:08-05:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - (Morpheus <carterr@miskatonic.edu>)


"SWeick" <sweick@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030328002300.18653.00000017@mb-cf.aol.com... > Robert Whelan rwhelan@amanda.dorsai.org wrote: > > So when do they apologize for the Cordy/Connor thang? They won't. They'll just try to turn it into a "brilliant" plot arc (brilliant by ME standards that is), a la bringing in Dawn without warning and explaining it all later.

2003-03-31 17:58:15+00:00 - Re: Comments on "Players" [Episode Spoilers] - ("E. Deirdre Brooks" <kalimagdalene@attbi.com>)


Morpheus wrote: > > "SWeick" <sweick@aol.com> wrote in message > news:20030328002300.18653.00000017@mb-cf.aol.com... > > Robert Whelan rwhelan@amanda.dorsai.org wrote: > > > > So when do they apologize for the Cordy/Connor thang? > > They won't. They'll just try to turn it into a "brilliant" plot arc > (brilliant by ME standards that is), a la bringing in Dawn without warning > and explaining it all later. "This Year's Girl" Buffy looks at A CLOCK on the wall. Her face falls. BUFFY I wish I could stay, but- FAITH You have to go. BUFFY It's just, with� FAITH Little sis coming. I know. The bed is made. Couldn't be neater. FAITH So much to do before she gets here. -- E. D. Brooks | kalimagdalene@attbi.com | US2002021724 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG AeonAdventure | "Why, in my day, we used to fight the Lord of Terror with nothing but a sharp stick!" -- www.reallifecomics.com