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2004-02-04 22:02:49-06:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (Orora <ororamapsREMOVEME@hotmail.com>)


No, you're not. I liked it too. P O S S I B L E S P O I L E R S P A C E "Steve D. Perkins" <dontwritesteve@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Xns9485E543EF0BFgeneralsteveperkins@130.133.1.4... > Look, Charisma's not a cast regular anymore. You don't have to be > happy about that, but you do have to understand that it's reality. Where > you go from there is hoping that they deal with her character's departure > in the most interesting and befitting manner possible, and I think the > episode tonight did this well. I agree totally. I always hated how BtVS left Faith in a coman for so long. I'm glad they didn't do that with Cordy. The writers etc. gave her a dignified and purposeful send-off after the muddle that was last season. It was appropriate and touching. > Personally, I'm happy with the resolution of her character arc > tonight. I say that while thinking of how she was a favorite character > of mine, and about how frustrated I was with the writers completely > running out of things for her to do and fumbling her character last > season. > > Say what you will about Spike "taking her spot" (and I'm NO drooling > female Spike fan), but the doom-n-gloom predictions of Spike ruining the > show just haven't come to pass. He's been utilized with no more than the > appropriate amount of screen time... and his interactions with other > characters (particularly Angel and Fred) explored new levels and depths > of those characters, augmented them rather than drowning them out, and > has carried the show grow forward to cover fresh new ground. Hell, James > M. even helped pull serious character development out of HARMONY for > God's sake! > > What would the writers have done with Cordelia this season instead? > I'm sorry, but as a fan of the character I shudder to think about it. > Her growth as a character had reached his peak, and I REALLY didn't want > to indefinately continue the will-they-or-won't-they romantic tension > between her and Angel another year (I'm still mad at Elizabeth Rohm for > bailing on the show and forcing Cordelia to take on that role in the > first place, it just never seemed to fit right for me). I wish Cordy would've been a permanent character this season. I think there was quite a lot to still do with her character, but if the writers/Joss didn't feel that way, I'm glad they gave her a good send off. > What happened tonight was the most dignified way possible to bring > closure to the Cordelia character. Furthermore, it's not necessarily the > end. Charisma has acknowledged in interviews that they left the door > open for future appearances, and what I saw tonight certainly seemed to > confirm that. I'd much rather have the possibility of Cordelia making a > sweeps-week appearance or two down the road, than the near-certainty of > her being a regular cast member and seeing her character further > tarnished to the point where I don't care for it as much. I would love to see Charisma/Cordelia again. And the tape of Doyle was incredibly touching. It all reminded me of the first season, and how much I really liked it. Great closure with the kiss, too. All in all, it was a sweet and meaningful good-bye to a character that was well-loved. One question, tho: If she's dead, how could spike "taste" her? O.

2004-02-05 00:58:50-08:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (benvarkentine@earthlink.net)


"Steve D. Perkins" <dontwritesteve@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9485E543EF0BFgeneralsteveperkins@130.133.1.4>... > Look, Charisma's not a cast regular anymore. You don't have to be > happy about that, but you do have to understand that it's reality. Where > you go from there is hoping that they deal with her character's departure > in the most interesting and befitting manner possible, and I think the > episode tonight did this well. Interesting? Befitting? Another beautiful, sharp, charming, funny, smart woman ends up dead on the floor, and that's "interesting?" It would be interesting if it had come as any kind of surprise whatsoever. They don't know any other way for such a character to deaprt. "Befitting?" This is what a character who was in the "Jossverse" from day one deserves? > Personally, I'm happy with the resolution of her character arc > tonight. For god's sake, why? I say that while thinking of how she was a favorite character > of mine, and about how frustrated I was with the writers completely > running out of things for her to do and fumbling her character last > season. No argument, but there has to have been a better way to give her a send-off. Maybe...oh gee, I don't know...give her a send off? Instead of reducing "the meanest bitch in Sunnydale" to someone who only exists (literally, in this case)to meet the needs of a male character? > > Say what you will about Spike "taking her spot" (and I'm NO drooling > female Spike fan), but the doom-n-gloom predictions of Spike ruining the > show just haven't come to pass. He's been utilized with no more than the > appropriate amount of screen time... and his interactions with other > characters (particularly Angel and Fred) explored new levels and depths > of those characters, augmented them rather than drowning them out, and > has carried the show grow forward to cover fresh new ground. Hell, James > M. even helped pull serious character development out of HARMONY for > God's sake! I can't speak to this, as this was the first, and almost certainly the last, episode I've watched all season. Happy for you if it's true, though. > What happened tonight was the most dignified way possible to bring > closure to the Cordelia character. Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please? Charisma has acknowledged in interviews that they left the door > open for future appearances, and what I saw tonight certainly seemed to > confirm that. Yeah. That's what they said about Amber Benson. And Sarah Michelle Gellar. And Alyson Hannigan. What are you getting? Andrew. Yay.

2004-02-05 01:16:24-06:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (Thirsty Viking <john_doerter@hotmail.com>)


"walkietalkie" <without@net.bom> wrote in message news:4021ED0E.C49B142@net.bom... > > > Orora wrote: > > > No, you're not. I liked it too. > > > > P > > O > > S > > S > > I > > B > > L > > E > > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > > > One question, tho: If she's dead, how could spike "taste" her? > > > > > > He was testing for demony-ness but didn't find any. He wasn't sure what he did > taste. > ghostness probably hehe

2004-02-05 03:35:54+00:00 - Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - ("Steve D. Perkins" <dontwritesteve@hotmail.com>)


Look, Charisma's not a cast regular anymore. You don't have to be happy about that, but you do have to understand that it's reality. Where you go from there is hoping that they deal with her character's departure in the most interesting and befitting manner possible, and I think the episode tonight did this well. Personally, I'm happy with the resolution of her character arc tonight. I say that while thinking of how she was a favorite character of mine, and about how frustrated I was with the writers completely running out of things for her to do and fumbling her character last season. Say what you will about Spike "taking her spot" (and I'm NO drooling female Spike fan), but the doom-n-gloom predictions of Spike ruining the show just haven't come to pass. He's been utilized with no more than the appropriate amount of screen time... and his interactions with other characters (particularly Angel and Fred) explored new levels and depths of those characters, augmented them rather than drowning them out, and has carried the show grow forward to cover fresh new ground. Hell, James M. even helped pull serious character development out of HARMONY for God's sake! What would the writers have done with Cordelia this season instead? I'm sorry, but as a fan of the character I shudder to think about it. Her growth as a character had reached his peak, and I REALLY didn't want to indefinately continue the will-they-or-won't-they romantic tension between her and Angel another year (I'm still mad at Elizabeth Rohm for bailing on the show and forcing Cordelia to take on that role in the first place, it just never seemed to fit right for me). What happened tonight was the most dignified way possible to bring closure to the Cordelia character. Furthermore, it's not necessarily the end. Charisma has acknowledged in interviews that they left the door open for future appearances, and what I saw tonight certainly seemed to confirm that. I'd much rather have the possibility of Cordelia making a sweeps-week appearance or two down the road, than the near-certainty of her being a regular cast member and seeing her character further tarnished to the point where I don't care for it as much.

2004-02-05 05:02:09+00:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (jvbguy@aol.comnomail)


Retroactive Spoiler Space for the post I am quoting: c o r d y c h a s e a l l w o m a n a l l t h e t i m e >"Steve D. Perkins" dontwritesteve@hotmail.com wrote: > Look, Charisma's not a cast regular anymore. You don't have to be >happy about that, but you do have to understand that it's reality. Where >you go from there is hoping that they deal with her character's departure >in the most interesting and befitting manner possible, and I think the >episode tonight did this well. I actually liked this episode, and I'm a huge Cordelia fan who would love to see her as part of the regular cast again. And when I say "huge Cordelia fan", I mean I'm only 215 pounds, but it seems to be located in my belly, so I look huge. > Personally, I'm happy with the resolution of her character arc >tonight. I say that while thinking of how she was a favorite character >of mine, and about how frustrated I was with the writers completely >running out of things for her to do and fumbling her character last >season. I always felt the writers lacked imagination when it came to Cordy. Well, actually, considering all the storylines they put her through, with the higher power thing, and the evil pregnancy thing, and the Conner thing (eeeeeeewww!), I guess it wasn't imagination they lacked, but common sense. Cordelia's strength was never that she would make for a cool demon, or that it would be fun to see her be evil or have some super power. Cordelia's strength was that she was Cordelia, plain and simple. Straight-talking, no-shit-taking, get to the heart of the matter Cordy. The person Angel needed in his life. > Say what you will about Spike "taking her spot" (and I'm NO drooling >female Spike fan), but the doom-n-gloom predictions of Spike ruining the >show just haven't come to pass. I don't think Spike hasn't ruined the show. I still don't think he quite fits in and I was perfectly happy with the way his story ended on BtVS. I just have this resentment toward him because he seemed to become the be-all and end-all of BtVS (to the extent where other long-standing characters got little to do) and when I read Joss saying that Cordelia's character had been taken as far as it could go, and then I see Spike on AtS... jeez, talk about taking a character as far as he can go! Evil, evil but harmless, evil but in love, good and in love, good and a hero, sacrificial saver of the world... and he's still hanging around! I have nothing against James Marsters, who I admire a lot (he, Alyson Hannigan and Emma Caulfield could say more with just their eyes than anybody else in either show) but Spike's arc came to a perfect conclusion, and he's back because the WB wants higher ratings. That annoys me because I loved the way his arc concluded. It should have stayed concludd. That being said, I don't think he's ruined the show. I don't think the show is as interesting as it once was, but I'm not hating this season. I'm liking it more than last season and the past two episodes have intrigued me enough to actually look forward to how this season will go on. Of course, I know Joss will reward me with several moments where I will be banging my head against the wall, but he's been doing that since Season Four of BtVS so I am used to it. It did amaze me how much more interesting it got when Cordelia showed up as Cordelia. And not just interesting because Charisma is flat-out gorgeous, but because the character, when written correctly (and played beautifully of course) just raised the energy level higher. Cut through the crap, so to speak. And seeing Cordelia tonight reminded me of not only how much I missed her this year, but for the past two and half years, really. >.. and his interactions with other >characters (particularly Angel and Fred) explored new levels and depths >of those characters, augmented them rather than drowning them out, and >has carried the show grow forward to cover fresh new ground. That scene at the end of last week's episode, with Angel and Spike... that's a keeper. Two old vamps, talking about the old days, how things have changed... and much more than that. They were almost friends at that moment. Whoda think that would ever happen? > What would the writers have done with Cordelia this season instead? >I'm sorry, but as a fan of the character I shudder to think about it. >Her growth as a character had reached his peak, and I REALLY didn't want >to indefinately continue the will-they-or-won't-they romantic tension >between her and Angel another year I think they could have worked around it. What makes me bitter about Cordy leaving is that Lorne, Gunn and Fred all manage to stay, and to me they were a helluva lot less important to the show than Cordy. Those first few years, Cordy was the heart of the show, and that's what they messed up somewhere in Season Three. I think they could have ditched Lorne, Gunn or Fred and kept Cordy on the team. Nothing against any of them, and I probably would have kept Fred as a regular to keep a nice gender balance to the show, and had Gunn and Lorne as recurring characters but not regulars. >(I'm still mad at Elizabeth Rohm for >bailing on the show and forcing Cordelia to take on that role in the >first place, it just never seemed to fit right for me). I liked the fact that Angel and Cordelia loved each other, but I think it should have just been an understanding they had between friends. As in "Gee, what might have been if you weren't a vampire who goes evil if I happen to give you a moment of perfect happiness, which, hell yes, look at me, I could do it, buster." There was a great love that developed between Cordy and Angel - born of friendship and respect. It should have stayed that way and I think they could have gotten it back to that without much trouble. As for Liz Rohm, I'm happy she got a high-profile role in LAW AND ORDER, but I'm guessing she had more fun acting on ANGEL. Those female assistant D.A. roles are not terribly exciting to play. > What happened tonight was the most dignified way possible to bring >closure to the Cordelia character. Furthermore, it's not necessarily the >end. Charisma has acknowledged in interviews that they left the door >open for future appearances, and what I saw tonight certainly seemed to >confirm that. That would be nice, if they could write her like they wrote her tonight. When's the last time anybody called Angel a lunkhead? He's deserved that for quite some time! I thought the writers nailed Cordelia's character tonight. They remembered the character that was so much fun in the early seasons. Then again, it was, IMO, one of the best ways a character ever went out on either show. I really am so sorry that Charisma Carpenter is not in the cast any more, for a lot of reasons. One of the main ones is that she is one of the six originals (along with Sarah, Nick, Aly, Tony and David) and now there is only one left in the franchise as a fulltime character. But I liked the way Cordy went out. I'm assuming she knew she was going to die, and had this one last shot at setting Angel on the right path before she did. And she did it... I hope. Her arc is complete. So bringing her back would be like... ....well, bringing Spike back. :-) John B. Laurel and Hardy Central (co-founder) http://laurelandhardycentral.com "If you were cute and little like this, you would naturally be afraid of a man six times your size." - trailer for ATTACK OF THE PUPPET PEOPLE

2004-02-05 05:11:10+00:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (Peachy Ashie Passion <res1n5cb@invalid.net>)


Orora wrote: > No, you're not. I liked it too. > > P > O > S > S > I > B > L > E > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > > "Steve D. Perkins" <dontwritesteve@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:Xns9485E543EF0BFgeneralsteveperkins@130.133.1.4... > >> Look, Charisma's not a cast regular anymore. You don't have to be >>happy about that, but you do have to understand that it's reality. Where >>you go from there is hoping that they deal with her character's departure >>in the most interesting and befitting manner possible, and I think the >>episode tonight did this well. > > > I agree totally. I always hated how BtVS left Faith in a coman for so long. > I'm glad they didn't do that with Cordy. The writers etc. gave her a > dignified and purposeful send-off after the muddle that was last season. It > was appropriate and touching. > > >> Personally, I'm happy with the resolution of her character arc >>tonight. I say that while thinking of how she was a favorite character >>of mine, and about how frustrated I was with the writers completely >>running out of things for her to do and fumbling her character last >>season. >> >> Say what you will about Spike "taking her spot" (and I'm NO drooling >>female Spike fan), but the doom-n-gloom predictions of Spike ruining the >>show just haven't come to pass. He's been utilized with no more than the >>appropriate amount of screen time... and his interactions with other >>characters (particularly Angel and Fred) explored new levels and depths >>of those characters, augmented them rather than drowning them out, and >>has carried the show grow forward to cover fresh new ground. Hell, James >>M. even helped pull serious character development out of HARMONY for >>God's sake! >> >> What would the writers have done with Cordelia this season instead? >>I'm sorry, but as a fan of the character I shudder to think about it. >>Her growth as a character had reached his peak, and I REALLY didn't want >>to indefinately continue the will-they-or-won't-they romantic tension >>between her and Angel another year (I'm still mad at Elizabeth Rohm for >>bailing on the show and forcing Cordelia to take on that role in the >>first place, it just never seemed to fit right for me). > > > I wish Cordy would've been a permanent character this season. I think there > was quite a lot to still do with her character, but if the writers/Joss > didn't feel that way, I'm glad they gave her a good send off. > > >> What happened tonight was the most dignified way possible to bring >>closure to the Cordelia character. Furthermore, it's not necessarily the >>end. Charisma has acknowledged in interviews that they left the door >>open for future appearances, and what I saw tonight certainly seemed to >>confirm that. I'd much rather have the possibility of Cordelia making a >>sweeps-week appearance or two down the road, than the near-certainty of >>her being a regular cast member and seeing her character further >>tarnished to the point where I don't care for it as much. > > > I would love to see Charisma/Cordelia again. And the tape of Doyle was > incredibly touching. It all reminded me of the first season, and how much I > really liked it. Great closure with the kiss, too. All in all, it was a > sweet and meaningful good-bye to a character that was well-loved. > > One question, tho: If she's dead, how could spike "taste" her? > > O. > > Now that you mention it, she wasn't actually dead yet. Astral projection? -- Usenet is like Tetris for people who still remember how to read. -Joshua Heller

2004-02-05 06:44:05-08:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (scs0@vol.com)


> I agree totally. I always hated how BtVS left Faith in a coman for so long. > I'm glad they didn't do that with Cordy. The writers etc. gave her a > dignified and purposeful send-off after the muddle that was last season. It > was appropriate and touching. Faith went into a coma on the series finale then didn't reawaken until Feburary sweeps. Cordelia went into a coma before the end of season 4, and even in the final episodes of her run she just laid there doing nothing, so Cordy was actually in a coma longer than Faith! I agree, if Cordy's gone for good than this was an excellent sendoff and one of the few bright spots in a fairly unimpressive season.

2004-02-05 07:11:54+00:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (walkietalkie <without@net.bom>)


Orora wrote: > No, you're not. I liked it too. > > P > O > S > S > I > B > L > E > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > One question, tho: If she's dead, how could spike "taste" her? > > He was testing for demony-ness but didn't find any. He wasn't sure what he did taste. WT

2004-02-05 07:58:58+00:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (Pyxi <drusilla@ameritech.net.nospam>)


"JVBGUY" <jvbguy@aol.comnomail> wrote in message news:20040205000209.25284.00000308@mb-m16.aol.com... > Retroactive Spoiler Space for the post I am quoting: > > c > o > r > d > y > > c > h > a > s > e > > a > l > l > > w > o > m > a > n > > a > l > l > > t > h > e > > t > i > m > e > > > > It did amaze me how much more interesting it got when Cordelia showed up > as Cordelia. And not just interesting because Charisma is flat-out gorgeous, > but because the character, when written correctly (and played beautifully of > course) just raised the energy level higher. Cut through the crap, so to > speak. And seeing Cordelia tonight reminded me of not only how much I missed > her this year, but for the past two and half years, really. I missed her too. And I loved that they gave her a bit of her old "bite" back...that was so lacking in the latter half of season 3 and all through season 4 >> I liked the fact that Angel and Cordelia loved each other, but I think it > should have just been an understanding they had between friends. As in "Gee, > what might have been if you weren't a vampire who goes evil if I happen to give > you a moment of perfect happiness, which, hell yes, look at me, I could do it, > buster." There was a great love that developed between Cordy and Angel - born > of friendship and respect. It should have stayed that way and I think they > could have gotten it back to that without much trouble. > EXACTLY! I think that Charisma and David had some of the greatest PLATONIC male/female chemistry on television. When they brought out the tired "romantic leads" I had a hard time even watching the show, even though I loved everything else about it. This brought it to a close, but didn't in any way diminish how they felt. It also didn't make it seem like it was the star-crossed lovers plot (which would, IMO, disregarded Angel's history w/ Buffy and cheapened him, in a way) >> > That would be nice, if they could write her like they wrote her tonight. > When's the last time anybody called Angel a lunkhead? He's deserved that for > quite some time! I thought the writers nailed Cordelia's character tonight. > They remembered the character that was so much fun in the early seasons. Again, agree. I think that they captured the essence of what most people loved about Cordelia perfectly. I didn't think about annoying "Saint Cordelia" once except for before she woke up. All in all, I loved this ep as a conclusion. If they bring (non saint) Cordy back as a ghost, coolios, but I think this was great!! -- Zen Hugs, Pyxi ***** "I laugh in the face of danger... then I hide until it goes away." --Xander Harris, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

2004-02-05 12:03:03+00:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (unboundi@aol.com)


Nope. I thought it was terrific. It was moving, genuine and had me enthralled from start to finish. It was everything that has made this show so damn good. I hadn't realized I missed Cordelia as much as I did. Her return brought a wonderful sense of humanity to the procedings and allowed Angel to re-discover himself and move forward on his proper path. Charisma was terrific and so was the episode. Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2004-02-05 15:51:06-08:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (reldevik@usa.net)


unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) wrote in message news:<20040205070303.04510.00001443@mb-m10.aol.com>... > Nope. I thought it was terrific. It was moving, genuine and had me > enthralled from start to finish. It was everything that has made this show so > damn good. I hadn't realized I missed Cordelia as much as I did. Her return > brought a wonderful sense of humanity to the procedings and allowed Angel to > re-discover himself and move forward on his proper path. Charisma was terrific > and so was the episode. --Agreed. It was a great episode in a great season. I think people who desperately wanted Cordy back on a permanent basis are letting their disappointment with the basic fact of her departure infect their evaluation of "You're Welcome" as a drama in itself. The episode, _qua_ episode, was excellent IMO. Clairel

2004-02-05 20:28:32+00:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (Richmond <rsbowen@telus.net>)


Mmm...Ghost Toasties! Stays undead, even in milk! B. > > > > > > One question, tho: If she's dead, how could spike "taste" her? > > > > > > > > > > He was testing for demony-ness but didn't find any. He wasn't sure what he > did > > taste. > > > ghostness probably hehe > > >

2004-02-05 22:00:14-05:00 - Re: Am I the only one who LIKED the 100th episode? (not really spoilery) - (forge <forge@diespammersdie.youneedageek.com>)


I liked it just fine. That's the way it's always been on here and atbvs, you love a show to death and log on only to find out you were supposed to hate it more than anything in the world.