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2003-06-10 13:43:22-07:00 - Re: The Demon that killed Nikki still lives, - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


PJ Browning wrote: > > In article <3E81B54E.87E5B5DA@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > and will live as long as Spike lives. Just because Spike has a soul > > doesn't mean the demon is dead. The demon is the life force in Spike. > > Spike's soul has no ability to sustain life. Every time Spike vamps out > > the demon surfaces. > > > > We know that a soul in a vampire can be removed by a shaman or a witch. > > It's also clear that Spike has little conscience about his earlier acts, > > otherwise he wouldn't value Nikki's coat so highly. Spike is not a man, > > he's a demon in disguise. > You are correct. > > In a way. > > The demon lives on, but does the evil. Demons, as we are told over and > over, aren't all evil. Sometimes it's a species thing, sometimes just > individual. We don't know because Spike has been controlled by a chip since season four and his obsession for Buffy for nearly as long. The chip is gone but now there's a soul, and still the Buffy obsession. I guess the question is, did the demon survive the amulet. Would the demon that sustained vampire Spike be necessary to sustain him in his reincarnated form? The body that the demon was reanimating was destroyed. It would be silly to reincarnate the body, the demon and the soul.

2003-06-11 07:34:10-05:00 - Re: The Demon that killed Nikki still lives, - (Laz <laz@localhost.localdomain>)


On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:43:22 -0700, Carmikl wrote: > PJ Browning wrote: >> >> In article <3E81B54E.87E5B5DA@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > >> > and will live as long as Spike lives. Just because Spike has a soul >> > doesn't mean the demon is dead. The demon is the life force in Spike. >> > Spike's soul has no ability to sustain life. Every time Spike vamps out >> > the demon surfaces. >> > >> > We know that a soul in a vampire can be removed by a shaman or a witch. >> > It's also clear that Spike has little conscience about his earlier acts, >> > otherwise he wouldn't value Nikki's coat so highly. Spike is not a man, >> > he's a demon in disguise. > >> You are correct. >> >> In a way. >> >> The demon lives on, but does the evil. Demons, as we are told over and >> over, aren't all evil. Sometimes it's a species thing, sometimes just >> individual. > > We don't know because Spike has been controlled by a chip since season > four and his obsession for Buffy for nearly as long. The chip is gone > but now there's a soul, and still the Buffy obsession. I guess the > question is, did the demon survive the amulet. Would the demon that > sustained vampire Spike be necessary to sustain him in his reincarnated > form? The body that the demon was reanimating was destroyed. It would be > silly to reincarnate the body, the demon and the soul. Good point. Why would anyone want to bring the demon part of Spike back? But that's exactly what the PTB did with Angel. Why would they do that? The non-story reason, obviously, is that without the demon they wouldn't have all the angst and conflict that an ensouled vampire brings to the story. The in-story reason has never really been given. I think we're just supposed to ignore the fact that it doesn't make much sense. That's the problem with telling stories involving magic and supernatural stuff: it's extremely difficult to force it to make sense. Willow has actually been the most powerful and dangerous character in the show since S3, but that has always been ignored. Spike will come back, ensouled or not, with demon or without, powerful or weak, and it will make exactly as much sense as Angel's return. In other words, it doesn't really matter how they bring him back; it's what they do with him afterwards. -- Laz

2003-06-11 16:15:22-07:00 - Season 2 death of angel? - ("David \"The Republican\" Walker" <animex@david.com>)


>Good point. Why would anyone want to bring the demon part of Spike back? >But that's exactly what the PTB did with Angel. Why would they do that? >The non-story reason, obviously, is that without the demon they wouldn't >have all the angst and conflict that an ensouled vampire brings to the >story. However you can make the case that angel never died in S2 of Buffy. He was just sent to hell. Then was rejected from there, since he was still "alive".

2003-06-11 19:54:34-07:00 - Re: Season 2 death of angel? - ("David \"The Republican\" Walker" <animex@david.com>)


On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:24:07 GMT, PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> wrote: >In article <4sdfevgqlfp21s6mpl86c6k7oacjv0fabi@4ax.com>, David \"The >Republican\" Walker <animex@david.com> wrote: > >> >Good point. Why would anyone want to bring the demon part of Spike back? >> >But that's exactly what the PTB did with Angel. Why would they do that? >> >The non-story reason, obviously, is that without the demon they wouldn't >> >have all the angst and conflict that an ensouled vampire brings to the >> >story. >> >> However you can make the case that angel never died in S2 of Buffy. >> He was just sent to hell. > >just in the same way that Buffy went to another dimension in Anne and >Connor grew up in another one. or for that matter, the temple in the >end of season 4 was in another dimension, as was Pylea. hell was just >another of many dimensions. Right. Since when did a sword though the heart kill a vampire? >> Then was rejected from there, since he was >> still "alive". > >you can't really make that statement. we don't know why he was sent >back/brought back. the First Evil claims that it was the cause, since >Angel was such a good baddie that it was a shame to lose him. that is >the only person/entity to claim responsibility and it could be true. And the first never lies. :) Besides if that was true...The first would have striped angel of his soul...but he didn't.

2003-06-12 00:24:07+00:00 - Re: Season 2 death of angel? - (PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net>)


In article <4sdfevgqlfp21s6mpl86c6k7oacjv0fabi@4ax.com>, David \"The Republican\" Walker <animex@david.com> wrote: > >Good point. Why would anyone want to bring the demon part of Spike back? > >But that's exactly what the PTB did with Angel. Why would they do that? > >The non-story reason, obviously, is that without the demon they wouldn't > >have all the angst and conflict that an ensouled vampire brings to the > >story. > > However you can make the case that angel never died in S2 of Buffy. > He was just sent to hell. just in the same way that Buffy went to another dimension in Anne and Connor grew up in another one. or for that matter, the temple in the end of season 4 was in another dimension, as was Pylea. hell was just another of many dimensions. > Then was rejected from there, since he was > still "alive". you can't really make that statement. we don't know why he was sent back/brought back. the First Evil claims that it was the cause, since Angel was such a good baddie that it was a shame to lose him. that is the only person/entity to claim responsibility and it could be true.

2003-06-12 04:49:25+00:00 - Re: Season 2 death of angel? - (PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net>)


In article <cmqfev88nutqpqs5796rc937mt9raih65c@4ax.com>, David \"The Republican\" Walker <animex@david.com> wrote: > Besides if that was true...The first would have striped angel of his > soul...but he didn't. and snapped its fingers and killed Buffy, Faith and all the potentials in one move it didn't do any of those things because it can't. it's not all powerful

2003-06-13 20:33:35+00:00 - Re: Season 2 death of angel? - (HeKS <heks_@hotmail.com>)


"David "The Republican" Walker" <animex@david.com> wrote in message news:cmqfev88nutqpqs5796rc937mt9raih65c@4ax.com... > On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:24:07 GMT, PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> > wrote: > > >In article <4sdfevgqlfp21s6mpl86c6k7oacjv0fabi@4ax.com>, David \"The > >Republican\" Walker <animex@david.com> wrote: > > > >> >Good point. Why would anyone want to bring the demon part of Spike back? > >> >But that's exactly what the PTB did with Angel. Why would they do that? > >> >The non-story reason, obviously, is that without the demon they wouldn't > >> >have all the angst and conflict that an ensouled vampire brings to the > >> >story. > >> > >> However you can make the case that angel never died in S2 of Buffy. > >> He was just sent to hell. > > > >just in the same way that Buffy went to another dimension in Anne and > >Connor grew up in another one. or for that matter, the temple in the > >end of season 4 was in another dimension, as was Pylea. hell was just > >another of many dimensions. > > Right. Since when did a sword though the heart kill a vampire? > If I remember correctly, Buffy impaled him through the stomach, not the heart. So that wouldn't have killed him (as we've seen him impaled through the stomach with a wide range of inanimate objects such as rebar, a wooden plank, and a few other things I think) . . . it simply opened the door for him to be sucked into acathla's (spelling?) hell dimension. And didn't buffy only need to get Angel's blood on the sword to do that? Same thing would have happened if she stabbed him in the arm. HeKS

2003-06-13 23:58:27+00:00 - Re: Season 2 death of angel? - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.angel, heks_@hotmail.com wrote in article <zyqGa.89741$3Sm.36192@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>... > > "David "The Republican" Walker" <animex@david.com> wrote in message > news:cmqfev88nutqpqs5796rc937mt9raih65c@4ax.com... > > On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:24:07 GMT, PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> > > wrote: > > > > >In article <4sdfevgqlfp21s6mpl86c6k7oacjv0fabi@4ax.com>, David \"The > > >Republican\" Walker <animex@david.com> wrote: > > > > > >> >Good point. Why would anyone want to bring the demon part of Spike > back? > > >> >But that's exactly what the PTB did with Angel. Why would they do > that? > > >> >The non-story reason, obviously, is that without the demon they > wouldn't > > >> >have all the angst and conflict that an ensouled vampire brings to the > > >> >story. > > >> > > >> However you can make the case that angel never died in S2 of Buffy. > > >> He was just sent to hell. > > > > > >just in the same way that Buffy went to another dimension in Anne and > > >Connor grew up in another one. or for that matter, the temple in the > > >end of season 4 was in another dimension, as was Pylea. hell was just > > >another of many dimensions. > > > > Right. Since when did a sword though the heart kill a vampire? > > > If I remember correctly, Buffy impaled him through the stomach, not the > heart. So that wouldn't have killed him (as we've seen him impaled through > the stomach with a wide range of inanimate objects such as rebar, a wooden > plank, and a few other things I think) . . . it simply opened the door for > him to be sucked into acathla's (spelling?) hell dimension. And didn't buffy > only need to get Angel's blood on the sword to do that? Same thing would > have happened if she stabbed him in the arm. > > HeKS > > > Angel had to use his blood to open Acathla's portal. Once opened, only Angel's blood could close the portal. It was Whistler who explains this to Buffy and suggests that Buffy kill Angel, the quicker the better. Buffy pinned Angel to the statue and so in effect she offered Angel up as a sacrifice to close the portal. At the time, she thought she had killed Angel when what she did was send him to a hell dimension. The powers that be later rescued Angel and returned him to earth to serve their purposes. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger