FLM films - My Webpage

2004-01-29 03:33:59-05:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (Morpheus <carterr@miskatonic.edu>)


"Katie" <scruffywwp@aol.comlala> wrote in message news:20040128232205.28384.00000934@mb-m15.aol.com... > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > I found it really disappointing when Andrew said that Giles was wrong about > Wesley. Poor guy can't get a freaking break! geesh! > Very surprised Buffy didn't tell Angel about the slayers...infact, it was > really bugging me, until Andrew said that Angel wasn't trusted anymore...that > made me sad, but it's understandable. I had some problems with that too. In "Chosen", Buffy asked Angel to wait in LA with his team so that they can be the next line of defense in case the Scoobies failed to stop the First. We don't see the aftermath but it seems hard to believe that she wouldn't tell Angel what had happened or that the slayers had been activated. The entire AI gang seemed rather clueless for some reason for all that Wesley was supposed to be in touch with Giles and the surviving watchers.

2004-01-29 04:22:05+00:00 - Damage (spoilers) - (scruffywwp@aol.comlala)


* * * * * * * wow, great ep. I was disturbed, sad, freaked and disappointed, but yet, all in a good way. I was a fan of Andrew in Buffy, but loved him here...he was still the same ol' Andrew, just with a new set of..you know.. I found it really disappointing when Andrew said that Giles was wrong about Wesley. Poor guy can't get a freaking break! geesh! Very surprised Buffy didn't tell Angel about the slayers...infact, it was really bugging me, until Andrew said that Angel wasn't trusted anymore...that made me sad, but it's understandable. Loved the Spike/Angel interaction, especially the final scene. That was bloody brilliant. Dana freaked me out. I was actually feeling a bit scared at first, which is rare for me. When she wiped the blood on her face the first time...eek. Shivers! On a personal, and very very sad note, this is the last time I'll be seeing Angel on Wednesdays :( I'm moving, and will have cable instead of satellite, and where I live, they only air it on the Monday AFTER the original airing. GRR! :( KT Remember, always be yourself. Unless you suck. ~Joss Whedon

2004-01-29 04:26:32+00:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (nimue <cup_o_cakesNOSPAM@yahoo.com>)


Katie wrote: > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > wow, great ep. I was disturbed, sad, freaked and disappointed, but > yet, all in a good way. I was a fan of Andrew in Buffy, but loved > him here...he was still the same ol' Andrew, just with a new set > of..you know.. orbs? ;-) >I found it really disappointing when Andrew said that > Giles was wrong about Wesley. Poor guy can't get a freaking break! > geesh! Very surprised Buffy didn't tell Angel about the > slayers...infact, it was really bugging me, until Andrew said that > Angel wasn't trusted anymore...that made me sad, but it's > understandable. Loved the Spike/Angel interaction, especially the > final scene. That was bloody brilliant. It was. And the tension -- dare I say -- the chemistry between the two of them was electrifying. > Dana freaked me out. I was actually feeling a bit scared at first, > which is rare for me. When she wiped the blood on her face the first > time...eek. Shivers! > > On a personal, and very very sad note, this is the last time I'll be > seeing Angel on Wednesdays :( I'm moving, and will have cable > instead of satellite, and where I live, they only air it on the > Monday AFTER the original airing. GRR! :( I feel your pain. :-( > > > KT > > Remember, always be yourself. Unless you suck. ~Joss Whedon -- nimue

2004-01-29 06:17:45+00:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (Buckaroo Banzai <blackhole34@yahoo.com>)


"nimue" <cup_o_cakesNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:YX%Rb.165309$4F2.19087786@twister.nyc.rr.com... > Katie wrote: > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > wow, great ep. I was disturbed, sad, freaked and disappointed, but > > yet, all in a good way. I was a fan of Andrew in Buffy, but loved > > him here...he was still the same ol' Andrew, just with a new set > > of..you know.. > > orbs? ;-) I was going to say vocal chords, considering that scream he let out... > > >I found it really disappointing when Andrew said that > > Giles was wrong about Wesley. Poor guy can't get a freaking break! > > geesh! Very surprised Buffy didn't tell Angel about the > > slayers...infact, it was really bugging me, until Andrew said that > > Angel wasn't trusted anymore...that made me sad, but it's > > understandable. Loved the Spike/Angel interaction, especially the > > final scene. That was bloody brilliant. > > It was. And the tension -- dare I say -- the chemistry between the two of > them was electrifying. > > > Dana freaked me out. I was actually feeling a bit scared at first, > > which is rare for me. When she wiped the blood on her face the first > > time...eek. Shivers! > > > > On a personal, and very very sad note, this is the last time I'll be > > seeing Angel on Wednesdays :( I'm moving, and will have cable > > instead of satellite, and where I live, they only air it on the > > Monday AFTER the original airing. GRR! :( > > I feel your pain. :-( > > > > > > KT > > > > Remember, always be yourself. Unless you suck. ~Joss Whedon > > -- > nimue > > >

2004-01-29 08:59:21-08:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (jillun@hotmail.com)


"Morpheus" <carterr@miskatonic.edu> wrote in message news:<2A3Sb.667$l4.2781@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>... > "Katie" <scruffywwp@aol.comlala> wrote in message > news:20040128232205.28384.00000934@mb-m15.aol.com... > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > I found it really disappointing when Andrew said that Giles was wrong > about > > Wesley. Poor guy can't get a freaking break! geesh! > > Very surprised Buffy didn't tell Angel about the slayers...infact, it was > > really bugging me, until Andrew said that Angel wasn't trusted > anymore...that > > made me sad, but it's understandable. > > I had some problems with that too. In "Chosen", Buffy asked Angel to wait > in LA with his team so that they can be the next line of defense in case the > Scoobies failed to stop the First. We don't see the aftermath but it seems > hard to believe that she wouldn't tell Angel what had happened or that the > slayers had been activated. The entire AI gang seemed rather clueless for > some reason for all that Wesley was supposed to be in touch with Giles and > the surviving watchers. I don't know, but my fanwank is that she essentially knows what the medallion did to Spike, and that probably makes her worry very much. She's said it, all through Season 7, that you can't do good by doing evil. And she, like Spike and like WHAT WE'RE SEEING ON ANGEL, may be worried about those gray areas.

2004-01-30 01:00:17+00:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com>)


Morpheus wrote: > "Katie" <scruffywwp@aol.comlala> wrote in message > news:20040128232205.28384.00000934@mb-m15.aol.com... > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > I found it really disappointing when Andrew said that Giles was > > wrong > about > > Wesley. Poor guy can't get a freaking break! geesh! > > Very surprised Buffy didn't tell Angel about the slayers...infact, > > it was really bugging me, until Andrew said that Angel wasn't > > trusted > anymore...that > > made me sad, but it's understandable. > > I had some problems with that too. In "Chosen", Buffy asked Angel to > wait in LA with his team so that they can be the next line of defense > in case the Scoobies failed to stop the First. We don't see the > aftermath but it seems hard to believe that she wouldn't tell Angel > what had happened or that the slayers had been activated. The entire > AI gang seemed rather clueless for some reason for all that Wesley > was supposed to be in touch with Giles and the surviving watchers. There aren't that many surviving Watchers...and it's entirely likely that Buffy has completely taken control away from that organization if it does still exist. I personally think that the First was locating potential Slayers *though* the Watchers, and thus the odds that a potential and her Watcher both survived, together, is minimal. (They'd have to both survive to know what was going on...the Watcher, to possibly notify any other Watchers still out there, and the potential, to become a Slayer and get taken away by Buffy, so the Watcher would realize what was up.) And on top of that, Wesley's *contacts* within the Watchers would have to still be alive to get the word to him. In my book, Wesley not knowing what was going on is entirely plausible, especially if Buffy doesn't trust W&H. And *now* I understand why Wesley didn't question his 'father' with 'Is Buffy okay with you restarting the Watchers?'...he didn't know Buffy had dramatically changed all the rules, and was just assuming everything was continuing as it was, with Buffy and Giles running around outside the Watchers' control, but all those potentials waiting in the wings. He probably knew about the mass gathering of all the potentials, but assumed they just all went back to their dead Watchers or whoever at the end. -- My hostname is only the last two parts.

2004-01-30 01:01:15-08:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


"David Cheatham" <david@tg.creeknet.com> wrote in message news:<xn0ddv2mj1aiwp000@hyperion>... > Morpheus wrote: > > > "Katie" <scruffywwp@aol.comlala> wrote in message > > news:20040128232205.28384.00000934@mb-m15.aol.com... > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > I found it really disappointing when Andrew said that Giles was > > > wrong > about > > > Wesley. Poor guy can't get a freaking break! geesh! > > > Very surprised Buffy didn't tell Angel about the slayers...infact, > > > it was really bugging me, until Andrew said that Angel wasn't > > > trusted > anymore...that > > > made me sad, but it's understandable. > > > > I had some problems with that too. In "Chosen", Buffy asked Angel to > > wait in LA with his team so that they can be the next line of defense > > in case the Scoobies failed to stop the First. We don't see the > > aftermath but it seems hard to believe that she wouldn't tell Angel > > what had happened or that the slayers had been activated. The entire > > AI gang seemed rather clueless for some reason for all that Wesley > > was supposed to be in touch with Giles and the surviving watchers. > > There aren't that many surviving Watchers...and it's entirely likely > that Buffy has completely taken control away from that organization if > it does still exist. ----- It is highly unlikely Buffy is running it. She is not cut out forit either personally or as a Slayer. At most she is second in command. Giles is the one who is reconstructing the concil. He is by far more qualified than Buffy. He knows the history, he has the contacts, few that remain. He has the administrative ability and also he has the gravitas for the office. Buffy lacks all that. While the Council was no doubt decimated, it is by now means wiped out. There have to be a lot of scattered "field agents" around the world Giles and Wesley's father can promote, not to mention retired ones who can be brought back to active duty if only on a temporary basis. Buffy is second in command, at most. That is where her authority lies. > I personally think that the First was locating > potential Slayers *though* the Watchers, and thus the odds that a > potential and her Watcher both survived, together, is minimal. (They'd > have to both survive to know what was going on...the Watcher, to > possibly notify any other Watchers still out there, and the potential, > to become a Slayer and get taken away by Buffy, so the Watcher would > realize what was up.) ---- I did not think and still don't think that The First needed the Council to find the potential. I believe It did it on it's own, it just needed time for the Harbingers to be directed. > > And on top of that, Wesley's *contacts* within the Watchers would have > to still be alive to get the word to him. --- Wes spoke to his father after he killed the Cyborg replica of him, I am sure he got the news from him. It is puzzling how little did not know apparently since there are plenty of logical ways he counld had found out. > > In my book, Wesley not knowing what was going on is entirely plausible, > especially if Buffy doesn't trust W&H. --- As I said above, Wes should had had other sources availiable to him, including his own father. > > > And *now* I understand why Wesley didn't question his 'father' with 'Is > Buffy okay with you restarting the Watchers?'...he didn't know Buffy > had dramatically changed all the rules, and was just assuming > everything was continuing as it was, with Buffy and Giles running > around outside the Watchers' control, but all those potentials waiting > in the wings. He probably knew about the mass gathering of all the > potentials, but assumed they just all went back to their dead Watchers > or whoever at the end. ----- Too many assumptions. In this case, I have to fault bad writing in this case. ------>Hunter

2004-01-30 08:36:08-08:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (seancdaug@speakeasy.net)


"David Cheatham" <david@tg.creeknet.com> wrote in message news:<xn0ddv2mj1aiwp000@hyperion>... > Morpheus wrote: > > > "Katie" <scruffywwp@aol.comlala> wrote in message > > news:20040128232205.28384.00000934@mb-m15.aol.com... > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > I found it really disappointing when Andrew said that Giles was > > > wrong > about > > > Wesley. Poor guy can't get a freaking break! geesh! > > > Very surprised Buffy didn't tell Angel about the slayers...infact, > > > it was really bugging me, until Andrew said that Angel wasn't > > > trusted > anymore...that > > > made me sad, but it's understandable. > > > > I had some problems with that too. In "Chosen", Buffy asked Angel to > > wait in LA with his team so that they can be the next line of defense > > in case the Scoobies failed to stop the First. We don't see the > > aftermath but it seems hard to believe that she wouldn't tell Angel > > what had happened or that the slayers had been activated. The entire > > AI gang seemed rather clueless for some reason for all that Wesley > > was supposed to be in touch with Giles and the surviving watchers. > > There aren't that many surviving Watchers...and it's entirely likely > that Buffy has completely taken control away from that organization if > it does still exist. I personally think that the First was locating > potential Slayers *though* the Watchers, and thus the odds that a > potential and her Watcher both survived, together, is minimal. (They'd > have to both survive to know what was going on...the Watcher, to > possibly notify any other Watchers still out there, and the potential, > to become a Slayer and get taken away by Buffy, so the Watcher would > realize what was up.) I suspect that while Buffy certainly carries a lot of weight in the "new Council," it's probably the surviving Watchers (and perhaps a few reenlisted ex-Watchers), in particular Giles himself, who are taking the lead in getting things up and running again. Buffy didn't seem particularly in love with the responsibilities of organizing the potentials in S7, and never really had much direct experience with the business of the Council, to begin with. There's the potential (*ahem*) for some interesting parallels between Angel and company's new role at W&H and Buffy's role in the new Council. I mean, sure, the old Council wasn't exactly evil in the same vein as W&H, but their particular brand of authoritarianism, their tendency towards cruelty, and the very heritage of their creation were all firmly entrenched in moral grey areas. And Buffy's antagonistic relationship with the group was in many ways similar to Angel's former relationship with W&H. The way in which Andrew and his posse act at the end of the episode also struck (for me, at least) some disturbing parallels with the Council's treatment of "Faith" way back in S4.

2004-01-30 15:34:50-08:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (jillun@hotmail.com)


Boy, you guys are incredible. While Gunn and Wesley are trying to pull Spike back to Wolfram and Hart, in ways that are SO reminiscent of when the folks there were trying to get Angel and his associates to work for them.... You're fussing that Buffy doesn't want to leave an insane Slayer in the hands of Wolfram and Hart? They've got Giles, they've got his coven friends, and of course they could contact Willow. In short, they are far more equipped to help her than anyone else out there. She may be recoverable. But Angel's idea of helping people is to destroy their memories and control their lives these days, and Wolfram and Hart's idea of helping people involves owning their souls, and not being particularly concerned if handing an apocolyptic virus to a criminal might someday result in the extinction of living things, or if removing the sleep from an empathic demon could result in... well, what it did.

2004-01-30 19:53:54+00:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - ("George W. Harris" <gharrus@mundsprung.com>)


buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote: :> There aren't that many surviving Watchers...and it's entirely likely :> that Buffy has completely taken control away from that organization if :> it does still exist. :----- :It is highly unlikely Buffy is running it. She is not cut out forit :either personally or as a Slayer. At most she is second in command. :Giles is the one who is reconstructing the concil. Giles is doing the work; Buffy is in command. -- Never give a loaded gun to a woman in labor. George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.

2004-01-31 01:21:50-08:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


George W. Harris <gharrus@mundsprung.com> wrote in message news:<4ldl10hjrkf7sp4j7qrvaluhucus6648co@4ax.com>... > buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote: > > :> There aren't that many surviving Watchers...and it's entirely likely > :> that Buffy has completely taken control away from that organization if > :> it does still exist. > :----- > :It is highly unlikely Buffy is running it. She is not cut out forit > :either personally or as a Slayer. At most she is second in command. > :Giles is the one who is reconstructing the concil. > > Giles is doing the work; Buffy is in command. ---- And you know this how? I mean, neither do I for sure, but I derive my opinion by the fact that it is Giles who is the most qualified. Sure Buffy has authority to give orders to Andrew, and I am also sure that Giles is relying heavily on her advice, but I seriously doubt she is running things on the whole, if only because she would not want to. ----->Hunter

2004-01-31 20:44:56+00:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - ("George W. Harris" <gharrus@mundsprung.com>)


buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote: :> :> Giles is doing the work; Buffy is in command. :---- :And you know this how? Because after Giles and Wood tried to kill Spike behind Buffy's back, that would be the only way Buffy would work with Giles. -- Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* fifty states seem a little suspicious? George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'

2004-02-01 01:20:54-08:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


George W. Harris <gharrus@mundsprung.com> wrote in message news:<k05o1058lv6k7v0jt04uu0o0p5ltd0coh5@4ax.com>... > buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote: > > :> > :> Giles is doing the work; Buffy is in command. > :---- > :And you know this how? > > Because after Giles and Wood tried to kill > Spike behind Buffy's back, that would be the only > way Buffy would work with Giles. --- Working with Giles does not mean she would have him work under him, even after what he did. Besides, toward the end of "Chosen" she had seem to had made her peace with it. Buffy has no desire to run an organization that could be so effectively and competantly rebuilt and run by an experienced Watch. I am sure she is taken an advisory role and as I said her opinion carries great weight especially vis a vis Slayers, but she is not part of the official command structure. But I am sure Giles authorized Buffy to give Andrew orders in this case. ---->Hunter

2004-02-01 13:45:34+00:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - ("George W. Harris" <gharrus@mundsprung.com>)


buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote: :Buffy has no desire to run an organization that could be so :effectively and competantly rebuilt and run by an experienced Watch. The person in charge isn't always (in fact, is rarely) the person who does most of the work. Buffy's the Captain; Giles is the Sergeant. -- They say there's air in your lungs that's been there for years. George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.

2004-02-01 22:20:09+00:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com>)


Hunter wrote: > "David Cheatham" <david@tg.creeknet.com> wrote in message > news:<xn0ddv2mj1aiwp000@hyperion>... > > Morpheus wrote: > > > > > "Katie" <scruffywwp@aol.comlala> wrote in message > > > news:20040128232205.28384.00000934@mb-m15.aol.com... > > > > * > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > I found it really disappointing when Andrew said that Giles was > > > > wrong > > about > > > > Wesley. Poor guy can't get a freaking break! geesh! > > > > Very surprised Buffy didn't tell Angel about the > > > > slayers...infact, it was really bugging me, until Andrew said > > > > that Angel wasn't trusted > > anymore...that > > > > made me sad, but it's understandable. > > > > > > I had some problems with that too. In "Chosen", Buffy asked > > > Angel to wait in LA with his team so that they can be the next > > > line of defense in case the Scoobies failed to stop the First. > > > We don't see the aftermath but it seems hard to believe that she > > > wouldn't tell Angel what had happened or that the slayers had > > > been activated. The entire AI gang seemed rather clueless for > > > some reason for all that Wesley was supposed to be in touch with > > > Giles and the surviving watchers. > > > > There aren't that many surviving Watchers...and it's entirely likely > > that Buffy has completely taken control away from that organization > > if it does still exist. > ----- > It is highly unlikely Buffy is running it. She is not cut out forit > either personally or as a Slayer. At most she is second in command. > Giles is the one who is reconstructing the concil. He is by far more > qualified than Buffy. He knows the history, he has the contacts, few > that remain. He has the administrative ability and also he has the > gravitas for the office. Buffy lacks all that. While the Council was > no doubt decimated, it is by now means wiped out. There have to be a > lot of scattered "field agents" around the world Giles and Wesley's > father can promote, not to mention retired ones who can be brought > back to active duty if only on a temporary basis. > > Buffy is second in command, at most. That is where her authority lies. I didn't say that she was running anything, I said that she took control away from them. Who she gave it to next is not important. > > I personally think that the First was locating > > potential Slayers though the Watchers, and thus the odds that a > > potential and her Watcher both survived, together, is minimal. > > (They'd have to both survive to know what was going on...the > > Watcher, to possibly notify any other Watchers still out there, and > > the potential, to become a Slayer and get taken away by Buffy, so > > the Watcher would realize what was up.) > ---- > I did not think and still don't think that The First needed the > Council to find the potential. I believe It did it on it's own, it > just needed time for the Harbingers to be directed. > > > > And on top of that, Wesley's contacts within the Watchers would have > > to still be alive to get the word to him. > --- > Wes spoke to his father after he killed the Cyborg replica of him, I > am sure he got the news from him. It is puzzling how little did not > know apparently since there are plenty of logical ways he counld had > found out. Except Wes' father is exactly the kind of person who *wouldn't* tell him vital CoW business because Wesley's no longer a Watcher. And you assume that Wes' father has any contact with any other aspect of the CoW, and that what's left of the CoW has any idea what Buffy's doing. > > In my book, Wesley not knowing what was going on is entirely > > plausible, especially if Buffy doesn't trust W&H. > --- > As I said above, Wes should had had other sources availiable to him, > including his own father. In addition to his sources in the CoW, he has...his sources in the Cow? What? It's not like the CoW is a publicly traded organization that he can read their SEC filings, it's a *secret* organization. Wesley was fired. He had a few friends left in the CoW. A bunch of Watchers were killed. If his friends were those people, then he doesn't have any contacts, period. And his father's not one of those contacts. > > And now I understand why Wesley didn't question his 'father' with > > 'Is Buffy okay with you restarting the Watchers?'...he didn't know > > Buffy had dramatically changed all the rules, and was just assuming > > everything was continuing as it was, with Buffy and Giles running > > around outside the Watchers' control, but all those potentials > > waiting in the wings. He probably knew about the mass gathering of > > all the potentials, but assumed they just all went back to their > > dead Watchers or whoever at the end. > ----- > Too many assumptions. In this case, I have to fault bad writing in > this case. It's not bad writing. Wesley clearly doesn't know what's going with the Slayers. At what point the knowledge chain between potential slayers -> their watchers -> the CoW -> Wesley's contacts -> Wesley broke is unknown, but it clearly broke somewhere. I suspect that the middle three links are completely dysfuctional. -- My hostname is only the last two parts.

2004-02-03 04:41:06+00:00 - Re: Damage (spoilers) - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: jillun@hotmail.com (Jillun) > >and Wolfram >and Hart's idea of helping people involves owning their souls > > > Which is precisely the moral paradox Angel is facing this season and why Andrew's comment that Buffy no longer trusts Angel not only struck close to home, but also reinforced the season's strongest theme. It's Angel's greatest fear, that he will lose sight of who he really is, what his purpose is and will fall deeper and deeper into the W&H abyss. Which is quite possibly exactly where the Senior Partners want him. Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html