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2004-03-04 02:15:26-05:00 - Shells and Forgiving parallel - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


Shells spoilers.... In _Forgiving_ Angel goes into Wesley's hospital room and tells him he understands why he did what he did, and then he takes a pillow and tries to suffocate Wes. In _Shells_ Wes tells Gunn he understands what he did, and then he takes a knife and stabs him. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2004-03-04 02:26:03-05:00 - Re: Shells and Forgiving parallel - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:15:26 -0500, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: >Shells spoilers.... > >In _Forgiving_ Angel goes into Wesley's hospital room and tells him he >understands why he did what he did, and then he takes a pillow and >tries to suffocate Wes. > >In _Shells_ Wes tells Gunn he understands what he did, and then he >takes a knife and stabs him. I mentioned that in the poll thread. I might have liked Shells and this arc better if it didn't seem so plagiarized from other things, including things ME has already done on the show. Time for it to end if all they can do is rip off their own plots. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes)

2004-03-04 20:29:13-08:00 - Re: Shells and Forgiving parallel - (reldevik@usa.net)


EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<ocmd409av9v4v034i7672duipen6tngaph@4ax.com>... > On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:15:26 -0500, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > >Shells spoilers.... > > > >In _Forgiving_ Angel goes into Wesley's hospital room and tells him he > >understands why he did what he did, and then he takes a pillow and > >tries to suffocate Wes. > > > >In _Shells_ Wes tells Gunn he understands what he did, and then he > >takes a knife and stabs him. > > I mentioned that in the poll thread. I might have liked Shells and this arc > better if it didn't seem so plagiarized from other things, including things > ME has already done on the show. > > Time for it to end if all they can do is rip off their own plots. --Well, I'd call it an ironic juxtaposition that is pregnant with meaning, myself, but that's just me. Clairel

2004-03-04 22:40:41-08:00 - Re: Shells and Forgiving parallel - (himiko@animail.net)


EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<ocmd409av9v4v034i7672duipen6tngaph@4ax.com>... > On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:15:26 -0500, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > >Shells spoilers.... > > > >In _Forgiving_ Angel goes into Wesley's hospital room and tells him he > >understands why he did what he did, and then he takes a pillow and > >tries to suffocate Wes. > > > >In _Shells_ Wes tells Gunn he understands what he did, and then he > >takes a knife and stabs him. > > I mentioned that in the poll thread. I might have liked Shells and this arc > better if it didn't seem so plagiarized from other things, including things > ME has already done on the show. > > Time for it to end if all they can do is rip off their own plots. > Or one could recognize it as a classic use of irony and poetic justice. There were a lot of these twists. Wes acting like Buffy at the end of S3 as Giles refused to help save his lover was another major one. himiko > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people > didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" > - (Calvin and Hobbes)

2004-03-05 00:21:52-05:00 - Re: Shells and Forgiving parallel - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 4 Mar 2004 20:29:13 -0800, reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: >EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<ocmd409av9v4v034i7672duipen6tngaph@4ax.com>... >> On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:15:26 -0500, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: >> >> >Shells spoilers.... >> > >> >In _Forgiving_ Angel goes into Wesley's hospital room and tells him he >> >understands why he did what he did, and then he takes a pillow and >> >tries to suffocate Wes. >> > >> >In _Shells_ Wes tells Gunn he understands what he did, and then he >> >takes a knife and stabs him. >> >> I mentioned that in the poll thread. I might have liked Shells and this arc >> better if it didn't seem so plagiarized from other things, including things >> ME has already done on the show. >> >> Time for it to end if all they can do is rip off their own plots. > >--Well, I'd call it an ironic juxtaposition that is pregnant with >meaning, myself, but that's just me. Glad you got something out of it. All I can think of watching Angel anymore is "been there, done that". If they can't think of new stories to tell, I don't see much point. I'd rather see episodes like Smile Time if the best they can do with drama is copy their own plots and just play musical chairs with the characters.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes)

2004-03-05 12:01:04-08:00 - Re: Shells and Forgiving parallel - (reldevik@usa.net)


himiko@animail.net (himiko) wrote in message news:<c7902983.0403042240.e2f1a8a@posting.google.com>... > EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<ocmd409av9v4v034i7672duipen6tngaph@4ax.com>... > > On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:15:26 -0500, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > >Shells spoilers.... > > > > > >In _Forgiving_ Angel goes into Wesley's hospital room and tells him he > > >understands why he did what he did, and then he takes a pillow and > > >tries to suffocate Wes. > > > > > >In _Shells_ Wes tells Gunn he understands what he did, and then he > > >takes a knife and stabs him. > > > > I mentioned that in the poll thread. I might have liked Shells and this arc > > better if it didn't seem so plagiarized from other things, including things > > ME has already done on the show. > > > > Time for it to end if all they can do is rip off their own plots. > > > Or one could recognize it as a classic use of irony and poetic > justice. There were a lot of these twists. Wes acting like Buffy at > the end of S3 as Giles refused to help save his lover was another > major one. --That's pretty much what I was getting at, Himiko, but as usual you said it better. Thanks! Clairel

2004-03-05 17:36:10-08:00 - Re: Shells and Forgiving parallel - (mep22@excite.com)


EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<je3g40hf5mp9rs4a73g09tl6i9g0ai74aj@4ax.com>... > On 4 Mar 2004 20:29:13 -0800, reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: > > >EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<ocmd409av9v4v034i7672duipen6tngaph@4ax.com>... > >> On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:15:26 -0500, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > >> > >> >Shells spoilers.... > >> > > >> >In _Forgiving_ Angel goes into Wesley's hospital room and tells him he > >> >understands why he did what he did, and then he takes a pillow and > >> >tries to suffocate Wes. > >> > > >> >In _Shells_ Wes tells Gunn he understands what he did, and then he > >> >takes a knife and stabs him. > >> > >> I mentioned that in the poll thread. I might have liked Shells and this arc > >> better if it didn't seem so plagiarized from other things, including things > >> ME has already done on the show. > >> > >> Time for it to end if all they can do is rip off their own plots. > > > >--Well, I'd call it an ironic juxtaposition that is pregnant with > >meaning, myself, but that's just me. > > Glad you got something out of it. All I can think of watching Angel anymore > is "been there, done that". If they can't think of new stories to tell, I > don't see much point. History repeating itself IS the point. Angel and his gang have failed to learn certain lessons: Angel because, well, it's what he does (he's been unconsciously repeating certain (self-)destructive patterns of behaviour ever since his BtVS days. It's his "thing"); the others at least partly because of the mind-wipe (in Wesley's case, to focus on the most obvious example, it has caused him to forget what it's like to make a mistake and have all the people you care about turn their backs on you. Or try to kill you). Oh, and playing God with other people's lives "for their own good" is itself one of those things that Angel failed to learn is never a good idea. So what happens to people who fail to learn from history? Why, they're doomed to repeat it summer school, of course. Just like Cordelia, Fred gets taken over by something she thought she could control. The gang fails to save Fred, just like they failed to save Cordelia. They ostracize Gunn, just like they did Wesley. Angel's secrets (*cough*Connor*cough*) will undoubtedly come back to haunt him again, just like they did with Penn and Darla and Holtz... Etc., etc. At this point, I'm seeing tragedy. But ya' never know - ME never quite sold me on Buffy and the Scoobies having learned anything either, and they got an (ambiguously) happy ending anyway.