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2003-08-15 09:09:44-07:00 - Wes the sociopath? - (Shuggie <Shuggie_member@newsguy.com>)


This should spark some debate - http://home.earthlink.net/~mimesere/wesleyoutline.htm

2003-08-15 14:32:33-07:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (himiko@animail.net)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030815135501.21868.00000510@mb-m07.aol.com>... > > I disagree that Lilah is the great love of his life. I also disagree that he > should have just accepted her as she was. She was a devil of sorts. I don't know about great loves of life, but I think he did love her. That was the devil part to him. If he'd just used her as he did Justine, he could simply have blamed himself which he's used to. But he loved Lilah, not in spite of what she was but because of it, and that showed him something about himself he wasn't quite ready to face yet. > His tragic flaws, in my opinion, are 1) he's a know it all to the point that if > he's sure his idea is correct, he's willing to sink the ship and everyone in it > to do what he thinks is correct. He has a very hard time admitting he's wrong. > This leads to utter disasters (Faith, Connor, breach with Angel). Much like Willow, in fact. Let's hope they don't crash this arc with any addiction crap. > And 2) he's > a sadist even though he doesn't want to be. As opposed to Lilah, who is a > sadist and loves it. Yup. And here too, ME could do something they could have done in BTVS and didn't: deal with SMBD in a mature, informative way, not as a "bad relationship" or genuine abuse, but as a sexual quirk that's as old as humanity and quite common among perfectly normal, healthy people. Laurel Hamilton did this with the Anita Blake series....actually a bit too much; it turned into an SMBD manual there for a while. I'd like to see Wes find someone who lets him explore this side of his sexuality without seeing it as real cruelty or a reflection on who/what he is in other parts of his life. > > He's much more like his father -- controlling and cruel -- than he will ever > admit. If he could admit his faults and get help, he could be a good man. Accepting his SMBD tastes as a sexual taste rather than a self-definition would be a big step in this direction. > As > it is he is a dangerous man who is working on the side of good because he has a > conscience. > > But he's not a sociopath. I agree. I also disagree that he sees Angel as a father figure, or that he is less charismatic than Angel...I'd rank him much higher in the charisma charts. He is actually very like Angel, thus proving it's not necessary to be vamped in order to harbor a demon. himiko

2003-08-15 17:55:01+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Wes the sociopath? >From: Shuggie Shuggie_member@newsguy.com >Date: 8/15/2003 9:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <bhj0k801gtv@drn.newsguy.com> > >This should spark some debate - > >http://home.earthlink.net/~mimesere/wesleyoutline.htm > I disagree that Wesley is a sociopath. And with the implication of the writer that sociopaths have a breach with reality. Psychosis is a breach with reality. Sociopathy is not psychosis, it's a personality disorder. I disagree that Wesley has hallucinations. I disagree that Lilah is the great love of his life. I also disagree that he should have just accepted her as she was. She was a devil of sorts. His tragic flaws, in my opinion, are 1) he's a know it all to the point that if he's sure his idea is correct, he's willing to sink the ship and everyone in it to do what he thinks is correct. He has a very hard time admitting he's wrong. This leads to utter disasters (Faith, Connor, breach with Angel). And 2) he's a sadist even though he doesn't want to be. As opposed to Lilah, who is a sadist and loves it. He's much more like his father -- controlling and cruel -- than he will ever admit. If he could admit his faults and get help, he could be a good man. As it is he is a dangerous man who is working on the side of good because he has a conscience. But he's not a sociopath. > > > > > > Rose "When I get angry, Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset." -- Dr. Evil, "Austin Powers"

2003-08-16 00:20:58+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"Shuggie" <Shuggie_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:bhj0k801gtv@drn.newsguy.com... > This should spark some debate - > > http://home.earthlink.net/~mimesere/wesleyoutline.htm > I can't believe you did it, Shuggie. Niall would be soooo proud. -- Best regards, Linda Angel's purpose will never leave. Not unless we all become angels, or he human. And even human his purpose is still there. There's not a lack of stories because you'll never run into the metaphor problems that BtVS has had. - Stephen Weick

2003-08-16 01:25:42-07:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (awilliamsaus@netscape.net)


Shuggie <Shuggie_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<bhj0k801gtv@drn.newsguy.com>... > This should spark some debate - > > http://home.earthlink.net/~mimesere/wesleyoutline.htm Well, I think that's a lot of false assumptions. I mean, I know that he loves Lilah a lot, for example. But I don't think she's the biggest love of his life. I mean, at the moment she is but that's because we don't find out much about his love life prior to Sunnydalle. We also don't know, for example, about the depth of his feelings for Angel. Okay, I don't mean that in a slashy kind of way although it does sound like it. What I mean is, this is a person who is willing to do almost anything for Angel despite the fact that the big lug often treats him badly. He's like the loyal significant other that Angel always wanted to have but never realise that he's always got it right next to him. Oh, I'm sorry, there goes my promise not to make this slashy. :P I do agree that he and Drusilla shares a lot of similarity when it comes to his relationship with Angel. I think to Wes, Angel is the person that he wants to seek approval from. Maybe not in the fatherly kind of sense but more in the sense that Angel is the person whose opinion/praise/affection he seeks a lot. That's why he's surprised in "Inside Out" when Angel tells him that Lilah's death meant a lot to him because Wes means a lot to Angel. He looks really sad in the gratified kind of sense when Angel said that as if he never expected Angel to say something that he's always wanted to hear from Angel. And I think the sadness comes from the fact that the knowledge that Angel cares for him come at the same time that he realises that he's just lost someone else that he loves (Lilah). And finally, I don't think Wes is a sociopath. I think he enjoys his interaction with Angel and the Fang Gang a lot. Especially in the early days of him joining AI. I think it was also the best memory that I have of the FangGang. Him, Cordy, and Angel acting like a small but warm family. I'm going to miss that a lot. I hope Angel still maintain that familial connection with Wes and talk about the way things were from time to time next season. But I digress. I do think Wes has the tendency not to trust people easily but that's due to his upbringing and the disappointment that he encounters in life. In a lot of way, he's like Angel, really. He broods a lot, his POV in life is marred with the bitter facts of his loneliness, etc. They are very similar to one another (even when it comes to their taste of visiting boring places like Opera, museum, etc) without realising it. anna

2003-08-16 11:14:05-07:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (himiko@animail.net)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030816104201.21471.00000135@mb-m01.aol.com>... > Himiko wrote: > > > > >Yup. And here too, ME could do something they could have done in BTVS > >and didn't: deal with SMBD in a mature, informative way, not as a "bad > >relationship" or genuine abuse, but as a >sexual quirk > > OK, I didn't mean sadist as in a guy who is into S&M and wants to be the > dominant one. I know, but a number of the people I know who are really into SMBD regard it as a healthy outlet for impulses that might otherwise do real damage. I think we saw some hint of that with Lilah who allowed him to act out in a way that brought them both pleasure. She didn't just do this with SMBD; she was into game-playing generally. I thought that aspect of his relationship with Lilah was very healthy for Wes. It was her actually being evil that was the problem...as it should also have been with Spike in S6. > What I meant is that in his day to day life, sex aside, he has a > cruel streak. There is a side of him that likes to inflict physical and/or > emotional pain on non-consenting people, such as Fred, Justine, Faith and the > girl he tortured for information in one of the the Faith episodes in S4. I think he's a misogynist more than a sadist. This isn't sexual, just gender-linked. I'd like to see some backstory on this at some point. I suspect his mommy issues are going to make his daddy issues seem moot. This might well come out if he gets a chance to interact with Spike who also had major mommy issues and misogynistic tendencies, but is a bit further along in dealing with them...also a lot further along with accepting SMBD and other sexual games as nothing to be embarrassed about. himiko

2003-08-16 11:21:42-07:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (awilliamsaus@netscape.net)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030816104201.21471.00000135@mb-m01.aol.com>... > OK, I didn't mean sadist as in a guy who is into S&M and wants to be the > dominant one. What I meant is that in his day to day life, sex aside, he has a > cruel streak. There is a side of him that likes to inflict physical and/or > emotional pain on non-consenting people, such as Fred, Justine, Faith and the > girl he tortured for information in one of the the Faith episodes in S4. Hmm, I am not sure about this. On the one hand, it's tempting to think of it this way. On the other hand, I feel that it's not so much that he likes it but more he's willing to cross that thin line to get a job done. Otherwise he wouldn't have set Justine free and would have kept her locked up somewhere else to satisfy his revenge needs, for example. He also seems to be ashamed of what he did when he told Willow about it. But I supposed one can argue that's because he still has his conscience intact. > I wonder if Wes really IS into BDSM. That involves consent and I think what he > subconscioulsy enjoys is terrorizing or hurting nonconsenting people. That sounds eerily similar to Angelus to me since after all, it is a subconscious part of Angel that likes to hurt people. I am not sure if the writers intended to show something this similar on their two main characters. But if they do, I supposed Angel and Wes understand each other's darkness even more than I originally thought. And come to think of it, last season they also seem to set Gunn up as relying to much on violence to get the job done (hitting that little boy Matthew to bring him back to the sewer). It's also interesting to know that both Liam and Wesley were both emotionally (and probably physically) abused by their fathers. If they're not careful, there's a danger here for ME to create a suggestion that emotionally abused children will tend to be abuser when they are adult. I don't think that's entirely true. And I'm glad that both Angel and Wes seem to be quite capable of not becoming one and only releasing their dark side when it's necessary (see Justine case in the above). The real danger only shows up in full force if both guys don't have a soul/conscience. anna

2003-08-16 14:42:01+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Himiko wrote: > >Yup. And here too, ME could do something they could have done in BTVS >and didn't: deal with SMBD in a mature, informative way, not as a "bad >relationship" or genuine abuse, but as a >sexual quirk OK, I didn't mean sadist as in a guy who is into S&M and wants to be the dominant one. What I meant is that in his day to day life, sex aside, he has a cruel streak. There is a side of him that likes to inflict physical and/or emotional pain on non-consenting people, such as Fred, Justine, Faith and the girl he tortured for information in one of the the Faith episodes in S4. > I'd like >to see Wes find someone who lets him explore this side of his >sexuality without seeing it as real cruelty or a reflection on >who/what he is in other parts of his life. I wonder if Wes really IS into BDSM. That involves consent and I think what he subconscioulsy enjoys is terrorizing or hurting nonconsenting people. Rose "When I get angry, Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset." -- Dr. Evil, "Austin Powers"

2003-08-17 00:11:11+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Himiko wrote: > This might well come out if he gets a chance to interact with >Spike who also had major mommy issues and misogynistic tendencies, but >is a bit further along in dealing with them...also a lot further along >with accepting SMBD and other sexual games as nothing to be >embarrassed about. > I don't get Spike as misogynist, except for his misogynistic phase in Harsh Light of Day. Spike, though gregarious, is a misanthropist. He doesn't like men any better than he likes women. He's never given me the impression of thinking men are superior or that women are society's main problem. Rose "When I get angry, Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset." -- Dr. Evil, "Austin Powers"

2003-08-17 06:48:38-07:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (dxgarten@ignmail.com)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030816201111.08312.00000086@mb-m27.aol.com>... > I don't get Spike as misogynist, except for his misogynistic phase in Harsh > Light of Day. That has to be the funniest thing I've ever read. He's not a misogynist except for that one little phase. And that other one (see below). > Spike, though gregarious, is a misanthropist. He doesn't like > men any better than he likes women. He's never given me the impression of > thinking men are superior or that women are society's main problem. Oh really? You probably forgot that scene in "Crush" where he blamed women for all of the problems in his life. I think the sentence I was looking for was "You bloody bitches! you caused all of these", etc.

2003-08-17 12:39:48-07:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (sam_14042@yahoo.com)


dxgarten@ignmail.com (Daniel Garten) wrote in message news:<49cf8df3.0308170548.362bbaa0@posting.google.com>... > fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030816201111.08312.00000086@mb-m27.aol.com>... > > > I don't get Spike as misogynist, except for his misogynistic phase in Harsh > > Light of Day. > > That has to be the funniest thing I've ever read. He's not a > misogynist except for that one little phase. And that other one (see > below). > > > Spike, though gregarious, is a misanthropist. He doesn't like > > men any better than he likes women. He's never given me the impression of > > thinking men are superior or that women are society's main problem. > > Oh really? You probably forgot that scene in "Crush" where he blamed > women for all of the problems in his life. I think the sentence I was > looking for was "You bloody bitches! you caused all of these", etc. I'd say Spike's issues with women go a bit beyond simple misogyny. It's like Spike is only capable of seeing women in two ways -- as either a transcendant goddess, or a worthless piece of ass to screw until he gets bored with her. There's no middle ground. Either a woman is the guiding force of his very existence, or she's barely even worth his notice. (Look at his relationships with Buffy and Drusilla, and then compare it to his relationship with Harmony...)

2003-08-17 12:43:02-07:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (sam_14042@yahoo.com)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030816104201.21471.00000135@mb-m01.aol.com>... > Himiko wrote: > > > > >Yup. And here too, ME could do something they could have done in BTVS > >and didn't: deal with SMBD in a mature, informative way, not as a "bad > >relationship" or genuine abuse, but as a >sexual quirk > > OK, I didn't mean sadist as in a guy who is into S&M and wants to be the > dominant one. What I meant is that in his day to day life, sex aside, he has a > cruel streak. There is a side of him that likes to inflict physical and/or > emotional pain on non-consenting people, such as Fred, Justine, Faith and the > girl he tortured for information in one of the the Faith episodes in S4. > Actually, I think Wes is slightly creepier than that. I've seen very little indication that he's a sadist, or that he ever actively seeks to cause pain to others for his own pleasure. What I see when I look at Wesley is someone who just doesn't give a damn, one way or the other. If he can accomplish his ends without hurting anyone, wonderful. If he has to stab a woman and wiggle the knife around until she talks, or send good men to their deaths, it's regrettable but he'll do it without so much as blinking. He doesn't enjoy it, he just doesn't mind it, either. The only thing that makes Wesley less frightening than, say, Holland Manners is that the ends Wesley's working toward are altruistic. --Sam

2003-08-17 15:52:49-04:00 - RE: Wes the sociopath? - ("Julia M. White" <jmwhit02@mailbox.syr.edu>)


sorry, who is Holland Manners? > >The only thing that makes Wesley less frightening than, say, Holland >Manners is that the ends Wesley's working toward are altruistic. > >--Sam

2003-08-17 20:08:03+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (Jerry Davis <jjdavis2@flash.net>)


Shuggie wrote: >This should spark some debate - > >http://home.earthlink.net/~mimesere/wesleyoutline.htm > > > Debate? Of course he's a sociopath.

2003-08-17 22:01:36-07:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (sam_14042@yahoo.com)


snds15@cs.com (Snds15) wrote in message news:<20030817194818.07394.00000112@mb-m25.news.cs.com>... > >Subject: Re: Wes the sociopath? > >From: sam_14042@yahoo.com (Sam) > >Date: 8/17/2003 3:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time > >Message-id: <21ced21e.0308171139.513acb5e@posting.google.com> > > > > > > > >It's like Spike is only capable of seeing women in two ways -- as > >either a transcendant goddess, or a worthless piece of ass to screw > >until he gets bored with her. There's no middle ground. Either a woman > >is the guiding force of his very existence, or she's barely even worth > >his notice. > > > >(Look at his relationships with Buffy and Drusilla, and then compare > >it to his relationship with Harmony...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > But what about his relationships with Dawn and Joyce? They tended to be > affectionate and protective, but he didn't regard either as a goddess. > > > Sandra Interesting point. It's only in his romantic dealings with women that the dichotomy really pops up. In other situations, he seems much more well adjusted. (Or as well adjusted as Spike ever was, anyway. Not very. But not much worse toward women than he was toward men.) In any event, I'd say he's certainly not a mysogynist.

2003-08-17 22:58:21-07:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (himiko@animail.net)


snds15@cs.com (Snds15) wrote in message news:<20030817194818.07394.00000112@mb-m25.news.cs.com>... > >Subject: Re: Wes the sociopath? > >From: sam_14042@yahoo.com (Sam) > >Date: 8/17/2003 3:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time > >Message-id: <21ced21e.0308171139.513acb5e@posting.google.com> > > > > > > > >It's like Spike is only capable of seeing women in two ways -- as > >either a transcendant goddess, or a worthless piece of ass to screw > >until he gets bored with her. There's no middle ground. Either a woman > >is the guiding force of his very existence, or she's barely even worth > >his notice. > > > >(Look at his relationships with Buffy and Drusilla, and then compare > >it to his relationship with Harmony...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > But what about his relationships with Dawn and Joyce? They tended to be > affectionate and protective, but he didn't regard either as a goddess. I think he sees women in three basic categories: chaste (good) women, whores, and the love goddess of his choice. Joyce and Dawn fit the first category; so did Willow oddly enough. Dru and Buffy fit the third category. Anyone else who screws around a lot, even with him, is a whore. This attitude is actually pretty consistent for the era Spike was born and raised in. His interpretation of it is quite liberal, probably the result of his experiences with changing sexual attitudes over the course of time and to the sexual liberation that seems to come with vampirism. But Spike is still some way away from seeing women as people first and sex objects second. The misogyny as well as the worship stems from this. Seeing women as people is something Xander does very well and I was hoping to see some development there, but it never happened. It may yet happen with Wes who, I think, has even further to go in this regard. Or with Angel who is further along...well, he has to be, poor guy, what with the curse and all. himiko

2003-08-17 23:48:18+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (snds15@cs.com)


>Subject: Re: Wes the sociopath? >From: sam_14042@yahoo.com (Sam) >Date: 8/17/2003 3:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time >Message-id: <21ced21e.0308171139.513acb5e@posting.google.com> > > >It's like Spike is only capable of seeing women in two ways -- as >either a transcendant goddess, or a worthless piece of ass to screw >until he gets bored with her. There's no middle ground. Either a woman >is the guiding force of his very existence, or she's barely even worth >his notice. > >(Look at his relationships with Buffy and Drusilla, and then compare >it to his relationship with Harmony...) > > > > > > But what about his relationships with Dawn and Joyce? They tended to be affectionate and protective, but he didn't regard either as a goddess. Sandra

2003-08-18 05:39:16+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Wes the sociopath? >From: dxgarten@ignmail.com (Daniel Garten) >Date: 8/17/2003 6:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <49cf8df3.0308170548.362bbaa0@posting.google.com> > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message >news:<20030816201111.08312.00000086@mb-m27.aol.com>... > >> I don't get Spike as misogynist, except for his misogynistic phase in Harsh >> Light of Day. > >That has to be the funniest thing I've ever >read. If I can help a person to engage in merry chortling, I know I have not lived this life in vain. >He's not a >misogynist except for that one little >phase. True. I think many characters have gone through phases that don't define them over the entire range of their time on the show. For instance, Wesley is not a suck-up to authority even though he used to be. Angel isn't fixated on Darla even though he was for a few months there. Spike isn't a misogynist just because he was while during a period starting after Dru broke up with him and before he realized he was enchipped, giving him bigger things to worry about than "getting revenge on all women" as James M. put it. Now, do I think Evil Spike loved, respected and honored women as integrated beings? Of course not. But do I think he believed women are inherently inferior to men and need to be held down or they would corrupt and degrade mankind? Nope. Do I think he believed all women were evil? Nope. (Note his reassurance to Dawn that she wasn't evil.) Do I think he feared all women? Nyet. All just my opinion, of course, your opinion being equally fab. >And that other one (see >below). > >> Spike, though gregarious, is a misanthropist. He doesn't like >> men any better than he likes women. He's never given me the impression of >> thinking men are superior or that women are society's main problem. > >Oh really? You probably forgot that scene in "Crush" where he blamed >women for all of the problems in his life. I think the sentence I was >looking for was "You bloody bitches! you caused all of these", etc. > He blamed the women in his life for his romantic problems, yes. That doesn't fit my definition of misogynist....hatred and fear of women in general, as opposed to hatred of all humanity or hatred of particular women in one's life...but if it fits yours, that's fine. I think Spike hated people because he thought they were mean to him when he was human, and women, being people, were part of that hatred, but I don't think it was based on their gender. Rose "When I get angry, Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset." -- Dr. Evil, "Austin Powers"

2003-08-18 05:44:04+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (Growltiger <growltiger@never.invalid>)


Previously on Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:08:03 +0000, Jerry Davis wrote: > Shuggie wrote: > >>This should spark some debate - >> >>http://home.earthlink.net/~mimesere/wesleyoutline.htm >> >> >> > Debate? Of course he's a sociopath. No he is not. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-08-18 11:54:00-07:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (himiko@animail.net)


"Julia M. White" <jmwhit02@mailbox.syr.edu> wrote in message news:<3F400AC3@OrangeMail>... > sorry, who is Holland Manners? He was Lilah and Lindsey's immediate superior at W&H. I think he headed up the special projects division or something like that. Anyway, he was also in charge of the "Angel Project." He was responsible for bringing Darla back among other things. I think she snacked on him in his own wine cellar when Angel locked the doors. himiko

2003-08-18 18:03:17+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


st wrote: >Calling anyone a mysogynist pretty much reduces >to 'poopoo head' these days. Maybe, but the term is useful to describe a person who embraces an anti-female philosophy. Caleb was a misogynist. Could anyone imagine Spike making the kind of speeches about women that Caleb does? What kind of blanket, across-the-board, sweeping condemnation of women, all women has Spike ever made? Has he ever said "All women are bitches and whores"? Has he ever said the problem with the world is women voting and getting educated when they should stay barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen? Does he insist on always having the upper hand in his relationships because the man is supposed to be dominant over the woman or the woman will destroy him? Hating some women, certain types of women, or having sexist attitudes isn't the same as hating and fearing women *AS A GENDER*. At least, in my opinion. I interpret the word "misogynist" more narrowly than some, I suppose. I don't think The Master, Angelus, or Adam were particularly misogynistic either. The Mayor may have been but there's not enough evidence. Misogynists on BtVS and Angel that I can think of are Caleb, the guy who beat his gf in "Beauty and the Beasts", the Billy-demon on "Angel", and Tara's father. Rose "When I get angry, Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset." -- Dr. Evil, "Austin Powers"

2003-08-18 19:42:06+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (snds15@cs.com)


>Subject: Re: Wes the sociopath? >From: himiko@animail.net (himiko) >Date: 8/18/2003 1:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time >Message-id: <c7902983.0308172158.7e3cd1ac@posting.google.com> > > >I think he sees women in three basic categories: chaste (good) women, >whores, and the love goddess of his choice. Joyce and Dawn fit the >first category; so did Willow oddly enough. Dru and Buffy fit the >third category. Anyone else who screws around a lot, even with him, >is a whore. > >This attitude is actually pretty consistent for the era Spike was born >and raised in. His interpretation of it is quite liberal, probably >the result of his experiences with changing sexual attitudes over the >course of time and to the sexual liberation that seems to come with >vampirism. But Spike is still some way away from seeing women as >people first and sex objects second. The misogyny as well as the >worship stems from this. > >Seeing women as people is something Xander does very well and I was >hoping to see some development there, but it never happened. It may >yet happen with Wes who, I think, has even further to go in this >regard. Or with Angel who is further along...well, he has to be, poor >guy, what with the curse and all. > >himiko I didn't get the impression that Spike regarded either Anya or Faith as a whore, despite knowing that they both had numerous sexual experiences. On the other hand, Xander was extremely judgmental about both Anya and, especially, Buffy. I don't think he regarded either as a goddess, exactly, but it was plain he thought less of Anya because "you let that filthy thing touch you;" and was absolutely shattered when he learned about Spike and Buffy. Sandra

2003-08-18 20:57:39-07:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (himiko@animail.net)


snds15@cs.com (Snds15) wrote in message news:<20030818154206.20925.00000186@mb-m13.news.cs.com>... > > I didn't get the impression that Spike regarded either Anya or Faith as a > whore, despite knowing that they both had numerous sexual experiences. True. I think Spike's version of good women may be more related to fighting ability and inclination than chastity. OTOH, we didn't see him coming on to either Dawn or Joyce the way he did with both Anya and Faith...there were definitely some assumptions in his behavior with both of them. > > On the other hand, Xander was extremely judgmental about both Anya and, > especially, Buffy. > I don't think he regarded either as a goddess, exactly, but it was plain he > thought less of Anya because "you let that filthy thing touch you;" and was > absolutely shattered when he learned about Spike and Buffy. > Yep. Not Xander's finest moments. I wish they'd linked this into his fears about becoming his father more. himiko

2003-08-19 04:14:59+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (Linda <lindaDELETESPAM@susieword.com>)


"himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message news:c7902983.0308181957.61283b16@posting.google.com... > snds15@cs.com (Snds15) wrote in message news:<20030818154206.20925.00000186@mb-m13.news.cs.com>... > > > > I didn't get the impression that Spike regarded either Anya or Faith as a > > whore, despite knowing that they both had numerous sexual experiences. > > True. I think Spike's version of good women may be more related to > fighting ability and inclination than chastity. OTOH, we didn't see > him coming on to either Dawn or Joyce the way he did with both Anya > and Faith...there were definitely some assumptions in his behavior > with both of them. > > > > On the other hand, Xander was extremely judgmental about both Anya and, > > especially, Buffy. > > I don't think he regarded either as a goddess, exactly, but it was plain he > > thought less of Anya because "you let that filthy thing touch you;" and was > > absolutely shattered when he learned about Spike and Buffy. > > > Yep. Not Xander's finest moments. I wish they'd linked this into his > fears about becoming his father more. I would suggest you change the subject because this post has *nothing* to do with Wes and didn't even mention his name so was a waste of my time to read it. -- Best Regards, Linda Mmmmmm.....Naked...Angel

2003-08-19 07:18:23+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


> > >You are confusing anti-feminist with misogynist. > No I'm not. Anti-feminist covers a much wider spectrum, and the very term depends on how you define "feminist." Anti-feminism and misogyny can overlap, however. > >>Does he insist on always having the upper hand in his >>relationships because the man is supposed to be dominant over the woman or >the >>woman will destroy him? > >Again you are describing feminism. No, I am not describing feminism at all. I'm describing a misogynistic philosophy. >One can 'hate' and still feel >'inferior to' something, and in fact that is the basis quite a lot of >hate. No argument there. > >Hating anything, can manifest itself in different ways. Fearing women >and hating women are also different. >Hating women is misogyny. I've heard it defined both ways, but it's not a big deal. > >Angelus did take a certain amount of pleasure in killing or trying to >kill women, Dru, Jenny, Buffy, Faith... In fact I can't even remember >him killing a man... His dad. Penn. Tried to kill Xander. I think he had Dru kill the museum guy who had the big rock. Tried to kill all humanity in Becoming. Was about to kill Giles when Spike stopped him. Rose "When I get angry, Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset." -- Dr. Evil, "Austin Powers"

2003-08-19 13:16:32+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (Jerry Davis <jjdavis2@flash.net>)


Growltiger wrote: >Previously on Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:08:03 +0000, Jerry Davis wrote: > > > >>Shuggie wrote: >> >> >> >>>This should spark some debate - >>> >>>http://home.earthlink.net/~mimesere/wesleyoutline.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Debate? Of course he's a sociopath. >> >> > >No he is not. >-- >Be seeing you, >Growltiger > > Well, it depends on your definition. Does he have a conscience? Yes. So, not a sociopath? But my grayscale on this includes those who will do anything to achieve their goal no matter what the individual cost might be, the extreme side of the "ends justify the means" crowd. Wes would have managed Enron and WorldCom to get what he wanted.

2003-08-20 08:49:51+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (Niall Harrison <sax@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>)


Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Linda wrote: > "Shuggie" <Shuggie_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message > news:bhj0k801gtv@drn.newsguy.com... >> This should spark some debate - >> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~mimesere/wesleyoutline.htm > > I can't believe you did it, Shuggie. Niall would be soooo proud. *beams* Niall -- Verbing weirds language.

2003-08-20 16:54:26+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>ubject: Re: Wes the sociopath? >From: st striketoo@hotmail.com >Date: 8/19/2003 6:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <u574kvoj0igrt14huhgmnlsgiabc5anbbt@4ax.com> > >On 19 Aug 2003 07:18:23 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > >>>>Does he insist on always having the upper hand in his >>>>relationships because the man is supposed to be dominant over the woman or >>>the >>>>woman will destroy him? >>> >>>Again you are describing feminism. >> >>No, I am not describing feminism at all. I'm describing a misogynistic >>philosophy. > >Not at all. Misogyny is about hatred, >period. Well, I think we just have differing views of how the word should be used.

2003-08-20 20:22:55+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


st wrote: >One of his greatest creations was Dru, an innocent girl. I'm not >saying this is as clear cut as someone like Caleb. It can't be, >because that's all Caleb was. Angelus and Spike, and the Mayor too are >more complex....and better imo... villains. Let me put it this way. I agree the evidence supports the possibility that Angelus is a misogynist, but I don't think that there is enough evidence to establish it conclusively. Rose "When I get angry, Mr. Bigglesworth...." -- Dr. Evil, "Austin Powers"

2003-08-21 00:45:42+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (LunaLu <shadowland@this.time>)


On 18 Aug 2003 20:57:39 -0700, himiko@animail.net (himiko) wrote: >snds15@cs.com (Snds15) wrote in message news:<20030818154206.20925.00000186@mb-m13.news.cs.com>... >> >> I didn't get the impression that Spike regarded either Anya or Faith as a >> whore, despite knowing that they both had numerous sexual experiences. > >True. I think Spike's version of good women may be more related to >fighting ability and inclination than chastity. OTOH, we didn't see >him coming on to either Dawn or Joyce the way he did with both Anya >and Faith...there were definitely some assumptions in his behavior >with both of them. =============================== Hellooo!! Anya and Faith... similar age..hot babes... beeen around. Dawn, he still considered a child, which she was at 17 (guess he differs from Angel here) and Joyce was a "Mother" and we all know his feelings about Mums... One drunken night he came on to Anya and they had that demon, lived a very long time, contempt for human thing going on.. I think he respected her in some ways as did a part of him towards Faith.. and I didn't see him coming onto her in the basement scene.. are you talking about some other scene? But think she was coming on to him just a bit, or maybe just being Faith, which has always been a temptress. you know some people like that?? I do.. not that they're coming onto the opposite sex exactly, they just exude a certain sex appeal.. and it's usually not just with the opposite sex, although maybe magnified, but part of who they are.. very interesting people to the watcher in me.. ~Luna >himiko

2003-08-21 01:32:13+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (LunaLu <shadowland@this.time>)


On 19 Aug 2003 07:18:23 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: (and someone else too!) >> >> >>You are confusing anti-feminist with misogynist. >>Hating anything, can manifest itself in different ways. Fearing women >>and hating women are also different. >Hating women is misogyny. >Rose >I've heard it defined both ways, but it's not a big deal. > ============================== Would you say Fear & Distrust are similar? Misogynist is either distrust or hate of women.. funny it's used as a male term and yet defines as "One who.... " And right next to it is misogamist.... "One who hates marriage" could there be something in common with women and marriage? Do men hate them both? Do women?? Do we have any misoginistic misogamists in the audience tonight How mysogynistic!!.. but not anti-feminist.... right?? feminist being one that beleives in the political, economic and social equality of the sexes (prefaced by "theory of")--- I need a new desktop dictionary... this one soOOoo sucks!! Would that include the entire female race?? (since we know we are better!!) would that make me an anti-feminist?? ~Luna

2003-08-21 01:35:43+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (LunaLu <shadowland@this.time>)


On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:04:52 -0400, st <striketoo@hotmail.com> wrote: >Not at all. Misogyny is about hatred, period. There is no one >philosophy, there can be many 'reasons', or justifications. You are >describing domninance/submission. Gay male relationships, no women >involved, can also involve dominance and submission, one man insisting >on being the 'top', the other one being the 'bottom'. This can also >occur in lesbian relationships. So its clearly not a matter of hatred >of women. ========================== Nope, my dictionary says "One who hates Women"=== see "gyn" ~Luna >st

2003-08-21 02:16:50+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (LunaLu <shadowland@this.time>)


On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:16:32 GMT, Jerry Davis <jjdavis2@flash.net> wrote: >Growltiger wrote: > >>Previously on Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:08:03 +0000, Jerry Davis wrote: >> >> >> >>>Shuggie wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>This should spark some debate - >>>> >>>>http://home.earthlink.net/~mimesere/wesleyoutline.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Debate? Of course he's a sociopath. >>> >>> >> >>No he is not. >>-- >>Be seeing you, >>Growltiger >> >> >Well, it depends on your definition. Does he have a conscience? Yes. So, >not a sociopath? > >But my grayscale on this includes those who will do anything to achieve >their goal no matter what the individual cost might be, the extreme side >of the "ends justify the means" crowd. Wes would have managed Enron and >WorldCom to get what he wanted. ================================== What a great page! Very entertaining... I was thinking as i read it though... and though about sociopath-- personality disorder marked by anti-social behavior.... Woudln't that inlude just about everyone these last few years in both the Buffyverse, Angleland and Fireflydom?? Must be Joss is the sociopath (and his diverse yet insane and entertaining writers!! =) But Wes?? Hell, no! He's the only sane one in the entire bunch! ~LooneyLu (who _really_knows what crazy is)

2003-08-22 01:16:40+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (Jerry Davis <jjdavis2@flash.net>)


LunaLu wrote: >On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:16:32 GMT, Jerry Davis <jjdavis2@flash.net> >wrote: > > > >>Growltiger wrote: >> >> >> >>>Previously on Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:08:03 +0000, Jerry Davis wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Shuggie wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>This should spark some debate - >>>>> >>>>>http://home.earthlink.net/~mimesere/wesleyoutline.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Debate? Of course he's a sociopath. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>No he is not. >>>-- >>>Be seeing you, >>>Growltiger >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Well, it depends on your definition. Does he have a conscience? Yes. So, >>not a sociopath? >> >>But my grayscale on this includes those who will do anything to achieve >>their goal no matter what the individual cost might be, the extreme side >>of the "ends justify the means" crowd. Wes would have managed Enron and >>WorldCom to get what he wanted. >> >> >================================== >What a great page! Very entertaining... I was thinking as i read it >though... and though about sociopath-- personality disorder marked by >anti-social behavior.... Woudln't that inlude just about everyone >these last few years in both the Buffyverse, Angleland and >Fireflydom?? > >Must be Joss is the sociopath (and his diverse yet insane and >entertaining writers!! =) > >But Wes?? Hell, no! He's the only sane one in the entire bunch! >~LooneyLu (who _really_knows what crazy is) > > > Actually, this could include most members of congress and those running for president. I, and I assume Will Rogers, H. L. Mencken, and Mark Twain, would get behind that.

2003-08-22 10:41:12-05:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (Thirsty Viking <johndoerter@HotSPAMmail.com>)


"himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message news:c7902983.0308181957.61283b16@posting.google.com... > snds15@cs.com (Snds15) wrote in message news:<20030818154206.20925.00000186@mb-m13.news.cs.com>... > > On the other hand, Xander was extremely judgmental about both Anya and, > > especially, Buffy. > > I don't think he regarded either as a goddess, exactly, but it was plain he > > thought less of Anya because "you let that filthy thing touch you;" and was > > absolutely shattered when he learned about Spike and Buffy. > > > Yep. Not Xander's finest moments. I wish they'd linked this into his > fears about becoming his father more. This wasn't about his father... This was about the two women he admired and desired sleeping with a souless vampire. The shock of this was compounded by seeing the woman he loved and wanted to be his wife (yes dad conflict here prevented marriage) sleeping with spike on a live Video Feed. The revelation about Buffy came right on top of this time wise. This made the Buffy-Spike an "E-Tu Brutus" revelation. I don't have any problem with xander at that moment, his failing was at the wedding John

2003-08-22 10:47:44-05:00 - Re: Spike the misogynist? - (Thirsty Viking <johndoerter@HotSPAMmail.com>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030818013916.20921.00000222@mb-m13.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: Wes the sociopath? > >From: dxgarten@ignmail.com (Daniel Garten) > >Date: 8/17/2003 6:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <49cf8df3.0308170548.362bbaa0@posting.google.com> > > > > I think Spike hated people because he thought they were mean to him when he was > human, and women, being people, were part of that hatred, but I don't think it > was based on their gender. > William deffinately was a social undesireable in the crowd he ran with... and I'm sure this left him with a chip of hatred on his shoulders, and not just towards women. Rather sad that the first woman who accepted him was an Insane Vampire Seer. Coupled with the whole mum-vampire incident... really quite tragic.

2003-08-22 10:56:00-05:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (Thirsty Viking <johndoerter@HotSPAMmail.com>)


"Anna Williams" <awilliamsaus@netscape.net> wrote in message news:8d46ad4a.0308161021.3a2675d5@posting.google.com... > fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030816104201.21471.00000135@mb-m01.aol.com>... > > > OK, I didn't mean sadist as in a guy who is into S&M and wants to be the > > dominant one. What I meant is that in his day to day life, sex aside, he has a > > cruel streak. There is a side of him that likes to inflict physical and/or > > emotional pain on non-consenting people, such as Fred, Justine, Faith and the > > girl he tortured for information in one of the the Faith episodes in S4. > > Hmm, I am not sure about this. On the one hand, it's tempting to > think of it this way. On the other hand, I feel that it's not so much > that he likes it but more he's willing to cross that thin line to get > a job done. Otherwise he wouldn't have set Justine free and would > have kept her locked up somewhere else to satisfy his revenge needs, > for example. I agree , he has no reason to believe her till he finds ANGEL. As soon as he finds Angel he is done with her and frees her. > > I wonder if Wes really IS into BDSM. That involves consent and I think what he > > subconscioulsy enjoys is terrorizing or hurting nonconsenting people. > > That sounds eerily similar to Angelus to me since after all, it is a > subconscious part of Angel that likes to hurt people. I am not sure > if the writers intended to show something this similar on their two > main characters. But if they do, I supposed Angel and Wes understand > each other's darkness even more than I originally thought. And come > to think of it, last season they also seem to set Gunn up as relying > to much on violence to get the job done (hitting that little boy > Matthew to bring him back to the sewer). An interesting take. He also killed the Proffessor. I just watched the Buffy episode where Faith kills the guy she thought was a Vamp. As Angel said about Faith... Gunn "has a taste for it now" > It's also interesting to know that both Liam and Wesley were both > emotionally (and probably physically) abused by their fathers. If > they're not careful, there's a danger here for ME to create a > suggestion that emotionally abused children will tend to be abuser > when they are adult. I don't think that's entirely true. I'm not exactly an expert, but I believe thier odds are indeed Higher.

2003-08-22 11:02:33-05:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (Thirsty Viking <johndoerter@HotSPAMmail.com>)


"Sam" <sam_14042@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:21ced21e.0308171143.648e6397@posting.google.com... > fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030816104201.21471.00000135@mb-m01.aol.com>... > > Himiko wrote: > > > > > > > >Yup. And here too, ME could do something they could have done in BTVS > > >and didn't: deal with SMBD in a mature, informative way, not as a "bad > > >relationship" or genuine abuse, but as a >sexual quirk > > > > OK, I didn't mean sadist as in a guy who is into S&M and wants to be the > > dominant one. What I meant is that in his day to day life, sex aside, he has a > > cruel streak. There is a side of him that likes to inflict physical and/or > > emotional pain on non-consenting people, such as Fred, Justine, Faith and the > > girl he tortured for information in one of the the Faith episodes in S4. > > > > Actually, I think Wes is slightly creepier than that. I've seen very > little indication that he's a sadist, or that he ever actively seeks > to cause pain to others for his own pleasure. > > What I see when I look at Wesley is someone who just doesn't give a > damn, one way or the other. If he can accomplish his ends without > hurting anyone, wonderful. If he has to stab a woman and wiggle the > knife around until she talks, or send good men to their deaths, it's > regrettable but he'll do it without so much as blinking. > > He doesn't enjoy it, he just doesn't mind it, either. I think he minds it, but that isn't going to stop him from doing what he has decided is the right thing. Just as the Core of groups like Hamas will not stop till all the world is ruled By the Islamic Chuch. A Palestine ruled by terrorists is only step one. > The only thing that makes Wesley less frightening than, say, Holland > Manners is that the ends Wesley's working toward are altruistic. This is a good paralell. One could argue that Angel and Gunn are right in that group too. John

2003-08-26 14:25:19+00:00 - Re: Wes the sociopath? - (LunaLu <shadowland@this.time>)


On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:16:40 GMT, Jerry Davis <jjdavis2@flash.net> wrote: >>Must be Joss is the sociopath (and his diverse yet insane and >>entertaining writers!! =) >> >>But Wes?? Hell, no! He's the only sane one in the entire bunch! >>~LooneyLu (who _really_knows what crazy is) >> >> >> >Actually, this could include most members of congress and those running >for president. I, and I assume Will Rogers, H. L. Mencken, and Mark >Twain, would get behind that. ============================== As would I.