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2004-04-18 17:21:23-07:00 - Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (barnett@shentel.net)


Spoiler Space How many people believe them completely? It feels odd to me that all the human characters would end up dying. Plus Joss said it took only minor tweaks to turn it from a season finale to a series finale. I think all the death's a major tweak, if it is. Who knows, maybe the reason why it got canned was because WB found out that Joss was slaughtering most of the cast. JLB

2004-04-19 05:10:13-07:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (s@dracos.co.uk)


barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0404181621.288c460c@posting.google.com>... > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many people believe them completely? It feels odd to me that all > the human characters would end up dying. Plus Joss said it took only > minor tweaks to turn it from a season finale to a series finale. I > think all the death's a major tweak, if it is. Who knows, maybe the > reason why it got canned was because WB found out that Joss was > slaughtering most of the cast. Maybe all these deaths aren't as final as we think. It may sound silly, but in the Buffyverse, there's no real reason why death should interfere with Gunn and Wesley's operations. Or is there? I've only heard about these spoilers second-hand... I would very, very, very much like to see Wesley come back for the TV movies (if they do happen) with some excellent undead powers. Perhaps the writers have something like that in mind. Having said which, I thought Spike's return would be better than it was. To be honest, I hoped it would involve eerie lighting, floaty special effects + Spike generally seeming a bit more spectral. Instead, he's like Rimmer out of "Red Dwarf". So maybe it wouldn't be that good after all :o) Anyway, back to the spoilers. When I heard about the human characters dying, I thought it was very bold. If they don't return, it's going to sever all links with Season 1. I like the idea that the show's unrecognisable now. But it makes me sad too! :o)

2004-04-19 06:23:04+00:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0404181621.288c460c@posting.google.com... > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many people believe them completely? It feels odd to me that all > the human characters would end up dying. Plus Joss said it took only > minor tweaks to turn it from a season finale to a series finale. I > think all the death's a major tweak, if it is. Who knows, maybe the > reason why it got canned was because WB found out that Joss was > slaughtering most of the cast. If it came from any other source I wouldn't believe them, but the spoilerslayer has been the most reliable site for things like this for years. I have some suspicions as to why Whedon might end the show this way, but I'm going to hold off on speculation until more concrete info comes out.

2004-04-19 07:18:51-07:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (s@dracos.co.uk)


mary_gentle@cix.compulink.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in message news:<memo.20040419111810.2708A@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>... > In article <c7b2ff96.0404181621.288c460c@posting.google.com>, > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote: > > > Spoiler Space > (now also for other episodes between the last one shown, and 5:22) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many people believe them completely? It feels odd to me that all > > the human characters would end up dying. Plus Joss said it took only > > minor tweaks to turn it from a season finale to a series finale. I > > think all the death's a major tweak, if it is. Who knows, maybe the > > reason why it got canned was because WB found out that Joss was > > slaughtering most of the cast. > > The spoilers (as on Spoiler Slayer, anyway) end on a cliff-hanger, with > Angel and Spike and Illyria facing off against the dragon. There's no > end mentioned. > > If that scene resolves with the defeat of Wolfram & Hart/the dragon, then > I'd bet that it also involves undoing the "mind-rape" at the end of season > 4 -- and doing it by rolling time back to that point where Angel closed > the deal with Lilah. > > In which case Wes, Lindsey, Gunn et all won't be dead, and Fred won't be > Illyria. Because none of it will have happened. <snip> That's actually a really excellent idea. I hadn't thought of that, and I think I'd quite like it to happen. Since the "mind-rape", I've had problems identifying with the secondary characters, because I'm not sure where they're up to emotionally. By secondary, I mean anyone who isn't Angel. My problem is, their characters changed so much during the Connor storyline. Logically, if that event (and all the events tied up in it) were to vanish, I'd expect them to revert to their former selves. They didn't do that, so I'm having trouble working out what they do and do not remember. If Wesley never had his throat cut, then how come he's still dark? Why didn't he go back to being cheery cheesy Wesley? Since the mind-rape, I find it hard to associate with/ understand Team Angel. If your idea happened, we would have excellent closure for the season, but not for the whole show. I don't think it's enough. So they beat the Senior Partners. Angel was always about Angel. What does he get? I always imagined it would end with him being staked, but going off to some better place as a reward for trying. Any ideas on what the dust effect would look like? I was always disappointed with how Darla died. It was too fast. I would've preferred a longer effect, with her blowing away like a sand sculpture, and staring longingly at Angel as she dissolves... *chuckle* :oD -- Stuart Lavin s@dracos.co.uk

2004-04-19 09:48:35-07:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (reldevik@usa.net)


barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0404181621.288c460c@posting.google.com>... > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many people believe them completely? It feels odd to me that all > the human characters would end up dying. Plus Joss said it took only > minor tweaks to turn it from a season finale to a series finale. I > think all the death's a major tweak, if it is. Who knows, maybe the > reason why it got canned was because WB found out that Joss was > slaughtering most of the cast. --I just can't help feeling that there has to be more to it than this. Ending on a cliffhanger of Angel, Spike, and Illyria facing off against a dragon just makes no sense at all. I know Tensai is cautious and reliable so I'm accepting his information AS FAR AS IT GOES, but I just don't believe it goes as far as the very final moment of the show. There has to be something else, like the revelation of Cordelia's death at the end of episode 5.12 or like the revelation of Darla's pregnancy at the end of 3.1, that wasn't written down. Possibly only Joss, his camera crew, and the actors involved know the very final moments right now. Clairel

2004-04-19 11:18:00+01:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (mary_gentle@cix.compulink.co.uk)


In article <c7b2ff96.0404181621.288c460c@posting.google.com>, barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote: > Spoiler Space (now also for other episodes between the last one shown, and 5:22) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many people believe them completely? It feels odd to me that all > the human characters would end up dying. Plus Joss said it took only > minor tweaks to turn it from a season finale to a series finale. I > think all the death's a major tweak, if it is. Who knows, maybe the > reason why it got canned was because WB found out that Joss was > slaughtering most of the cast. The spoilers (as on Spoiler Slayer, anyway) end on a cliff-hanger, with Angel and Spike and Illyria facing off against the dragon. There's no end mentioned. If that scene resolves with the defeat of Wolfram & Hart/the dragon, then I'd bet that it also involves undoing the "mind-rape" at the end of season 4 -- and doing it by rolling time back to that point where Angel closed the deal with Lilah. In which case Wes, Lindsey, Gunn et all won't be dead, and Fred won't be Illyria. Because none of it will have happened. I've had the feeling since they did the end of season 4 that season 5 would have a licence to go anywhere it liked in terms of corrupting our heroes, killing them off, etc., simply because it would be so easy to hit a massive re-set button. Sahjahn and Illyria have both got the ability to fritz around with time.

2004-04-19 13:02:30-07:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0404181621.288c460c@posting.google.com>... > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many people believe them completely? I do. I don't think we've seen the complete picture, but I trust everything that's posted on Spoilerslayer. Besides, it sounds like something Joss would do. > It feels odd to me that all the human characters would end up dying. *shrug* Clearing the decks for the Angel / Spike buddy series TV movies, I guess.

2004-04-19 19:43:38+02:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (justadude@dude.com)


Killing off the human characters effectively ends Angel Investigations. Holz was the beginning of the end really. Wesley started downhill with the events pertaining to Connor. Cordilia gone at the end of season three to return as Jasmin in season four. Lorne brainsucked by WH and Gunn's search for a meaning to his life when he and Fread split up. Ultimately this lead to Freds death, which in turn pushed both Wesley and Lorne over the edge. Fighting the good fight killed Cordy and Fred, will kill Wesley after consuming him. Gunn will never get the chance to seek redemption and Lorne just gives up. This leaves Angel with his once again companion Spike and maybe a new partner in Illyria. Angels quest for redemption and Shanshu enters a new Chapter. He and Spike maybe go back to the Scoobies. Hence the Spike quip and the beginning of Underneath. > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many people believe them completely? It feels odd to me that all > the human characters would end up dying. Plus Joss said it took only > minor tweaks to turn it from a season finale to a series finale. I > think all the death's a major tweak, if it is. Who knows, maybe the > reason why it got canned was because WB found out that Joss was > slaughtering most of the cast. > > JLB

2004-04-19 19:55:42-07:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (barnett@shentel.net)


igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote in message news:<5aa58763.0404191202.1e782322@posting.google.com>... > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0404181621.288c460c@posting.google.com>... > > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many people believe them completely? > > I do. I don't think we've seen the complete picture, but I trust > everything that's posted on Spoilerslayer. Besides, it sounds like > something Joss would do. > > > > It feels odd to me that all the human characters would end up dying. > > *shrug* > > Clearing the decks for the Angel / Spike buddy series TV movies, I > guess. So I guess he doesn't want those TV movies after all. JLB

2004-04-20 06:55:40+00:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (ebailey140@aol.com)


>From: barnett@shentel.net (JLB) >Date: 4/19/2004 9:55 PM Central Standard Time >Message-id: <c7b2ff96.0404191855.45966b3c@posting.google.com> > >igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote in message >news:<5aa58763.0404191202.1e782322@posting.google.com>... >> barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message >news:<c7b2ff96.0404181621.288c460c@posting.google.com>... >> > Spoiler Space >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > How many people believe them completely? >> >> I do. I don't think we've seen the complete picture, but I trust >> everything that's posted on Spoilerslayer. Besides, it sounds like >> something Joss would do. >> >> >> > It feels odd to me that all the human characters would end up dying. >> >> *shrug* >> >> Clearing the decks for the Angel / Spike buddy series TV movies, I >> guess. > >So I guess he doesn't want those TV movies after all. > If we reduce the cast this far, I'd guess any movies would involve the Buffy cast (The BtVS cast WAS talking about movies during Season 7, after all). E

2004-04-20 10:36:41-07:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0404191855.45966b3c@posting.google.com>... > igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote in message news:<5aa58763.0404191202.1e782322@posting.google.com>... > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0404181621.288c460c@posting.google.com>... > > > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many people believe them completely? > > > > I do. I don't think we've seen the complete picture, but I trust > > everything that's posted on Spoilerslayer. Besides, it sounds like > > something Joss would do. > > > > > > > It feels odd to me that all the human characters would end up dying. > > > > *shrug* > > > > Clearing the decks for the Angel / Spike buddy series TV movies, I > > guess. > > So I guess he doesn't want those TV movies after all. Who knows? Maybe the network execs wanted him to pare down the cast so they could focus more on Spike in the TV movies.

2004-04-20 13:52:03-07:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (reldevik@usa.net)


igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote in message news:<5aa58763.0404200936.57489db7@posting.google.com>... > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0404191855.45966b3c@posting.google.com>... > > > igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote in message news:<5aa58763.0404191202.1e782322@posting.google.com>... > > > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0404181621.288c460c@posting.google.com>... > > > > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many people believe them completely? > > > > > > I do. I don't think we've seen the complete picture, but I trust > > > everything that's posted on Spoilerslayer. Besides, it sounds like > > > something Joss would do. > > > > > > > > > > It feels odd to me that all the human characters would end up dying. > > > > > > *shrug* > > > > > > Clearing the decks for the Angel / Spike buddy series TV movies, I > > > guess. > > > > So I guess he doesn't want those TV movies after all. > > Who knows? Maybe the network execs wanted him to pare down the cast > so they could focus more on Spike in the TV movies. --Right, and killing off characters is the only way to pare down the cast, of course. ME couldn't just say that Wes has been posted to London, Gunn has been sent somewhere else, etc., etc. No, the network executives' alleged obsession with Spike is to blame for every development that fans find unwelcome. And Ian is just engaging in innocuous speculation with no malevolent or mischievous intent. Uh-huh. Clairel

2004-04-20 18:32:36-07:00 - Re: Question for those who read the final episode spoilers - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote in message news:<1faed770.0404201252.2d685fc7@posting.google.com>... > igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote in message news:<5aa58763.0404200936.57489db7@posting.google.com>... > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0404191855.45966b3c@posting.google.com>... > > > > > igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote in message news:<5aa58763.0404191202.1e782322@posting.google.com>... > > > > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0404181621.288c460c@posting.google.com>... > > > > > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many people believe them completely? > > > > > > > > I do. I don't think we've seen the complete picture, but I trust > > > > everything that's posted on Spoilerslayer. Besides, it sounds like > > > > something Joss would do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It feels odd to me that all the human characters would end up dying. > > > > > > > > *shrug* > > > > > > > > Clearing the decks for the Angel / Spike buddy series TV movies, I > > > > guess. > > > > > > So I guess he doesn't want those TV movies after all. > > > > Who knows? Maybe the network execs wanted him to pare down the cast > > so they could focus more on Spike in the TV movies. > > --Right, and killing off characters is the only way to pare down the > cast, of course. ME couldn't just say that Wes has been posted to > London, Gunn has been sent somewhere else, etc., etc. No, the network > executives' alleged obsession with Spike is to blame for every > development that fans find unwelcome. > > And Ian is just engaging in innocuous speculation with no malevolent > or mischievous intent. Uh-huh. :)