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2003-02-26 05:48:31-08:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (bergeg@parl.gc.ca)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... > here's what I liked about Andrew Ep aka 'StoryTeller' spoilers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Xander's de-epiphanying. I thought he had realized how wrongly he had > treated Anya, in general, and now he's said he doesn't think he was wrong to > leave Anya at the altar. He doesn't get a couple of things... first, he was > having doubts months before, and then was the time to rethink the wedding. > Second, he had a right to call off the wedding, but not skulk away like a > coward. I thought it was pretty clear that that's what he was saying. He feels sorry and apologized time and time again for how he did call off the wedding, but he still thinks he made the right decision *at this particular time*. He should have realized before hand, and for that he's sorry. Let's not get back into arguments on how Anya was likely not the one to deal with the guests since Buffy, Willow and Tara where all there to take care of her. It was probably better for Anya not to have Xander around after what he said to her. > -- The goodbye afterglow. It seemed like the show was trying to force > an "end" to the relationship with a bout of bad sex. I actually LOVED that. You have to like the irony. When trying to get over each other, Xander and Anya had sex and ended up starting their relationship. When trying to get back in their relationship, Xander and Anya had sex which got them over each other. Full circle. And it didn't seem like it was bad sex, they enjoyed it but realized the magic was gone. They love each other (as they always will), but they're only friends, now. I liked that they brought their relationship to a nice conclusion. > -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a > fantasy show. I like the teary scene itself, the only thing that kinda left me cold was the whole "It needed a tear". > -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his > chief charm. Change usually doesn't happen over night.

2003-02-26 05:48:31-08:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (bergeg@parl.gc.ca)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... > here's what I liked about Andrew Ep aka 'StoryTeller' spoilers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Xander's de-epiphanying. I thought he had realized how wrongly he had > treated Anya, in general, and now he's said he doesn't think he was wrong to > leave Anya at the altar. He doesn't get a couple of things... first, he was > having doubts months before, and then was the time to rethink the wedding. > Second, he had a right to call off the wedding, but not skulk away like a > coward. I thought it was pretty clear that that's what he was saying. He feels sorry and apologized time and time again for how he did call off the wedding, but he still thinks he made the right decision *at this particular time*. He should have realized before hand, and for that he's sorry. Let's not get back into arguments on how Anya was likely not the one to deal with the guests since Buffy, Willow and Tara where all there to take care of her. It was probably better for Anya not to have Xander around after what he said to her. > -- The goodbye afterglow. It seemed like the show was trying to force > an "end" to the relationship with a bout of bad sex. I actually LOVED that. You have to like the irony. When trying to get over each other, Xander and Anya had sex and ended up starting their relationship. When trying to get back in their relationship, Xander and Anya had sex which got them over each other. Full circle. And it didn't seem like it was bad sex, they enjoyed it but realized the magic was gone. They love each other (as they always will), but they're only friends, now. I liked that they brought their relationship to a nice conclusion. > -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a > fantasy show. I like the teary scene itself, the only thing that kinda left me cold was the whole "It needed a tear". > -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his > chief charm. Change usually doesn't happen over night.

2003-02-26 06:50:01+00:00 - Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


here's what I liked about Andrew Ep -- I got to enjoy wacky ME humor watching a whole episode that focused more on characters I find entertaining (Andrew, Jonathan, Warren, a dash of Spike and Wood) than characters I don't find entertaining this sesaon. -- I was actually grateful for the crash course on the season arc. I didn't realize it until hearing the lecture, but I was a little lost. I tend not to pay attention to plotty things enough. -- A lot of the gags were very funny. -- I enjoyed my mother sayiing "Who made her queen?" and "she's a bossy thing" about Buffy. She wanted to know if the show ever explained how Slayers were chosen. I had to tell her no, which was kind of embarrassing, seeing as the show is over 6 years old. ;) -- The way Andrew's story mirror's Spike's. Spike isn't comic relief anymore, so we have to see the humorous aspect of his story via the Warren arc. -- The fact that Wood is shaping up to be quite the morally ambiguous character. I like that. He's not all evil, but he's not a hero either. Not that he can't be. He could be good or evil at this point. -- An "I was right" moment. Buffy is still interested in Wood. So there was reason for that pregnant dramatic pause, and my irritation at her for the yes-no approach to Spike was warranted. -- It was kinda fun to see Buffy continue her ambivalence. "Spike, prove you have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) What I didn't like -- Xander's de-epiphanying. I thought he had realized how wrongly he had treated Anya, in general, and now he's said he doesn't think he was wrong to leave Anya at the altar. He doesn't get a couple of things... first, he was having doubts months before, and then was the time to rethink the wedding. Second, he had a right to call off the wedding, but not skulk away like a coward. -- The goodbye afterglow. It seemed like the show was trying to force an "end" to the relationship with a bout of bad sex. -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a fantasy show. -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his chief charm. -- Feeling sorry for Dawn again. Poor MT, shunted aside week after week these days. -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and the contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. Even if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, it's okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. You're not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're at it, grow some roots again. They're cute. -- We can feel the heat between Buffy and Spike? How does she relate to him the last couple eps besides crossing her arms and pursing her lips? I agree with Andrew. The sexual tension between Wood and Spike is pretty thick. ;) I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again for the chortles, it warrants at least that. Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-26 06:50:01+00:00 - Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


here's what I liked about Andrew Ep -- I got to enjoy wacky ME humor watching a whole episode that focused more on characters I find entertaining (Andrew, Jonathan, Warren, a dash of Spike and Wood) than characters I don't find entertaining this sesaon. -- I was actually grateful for the crash course on the season arc. I didn't realize it until hearing the lecture, but I was a little lost. I tend not to pay attention to plotty things enough. -- A lot of the gags were very funny. -- I enjoyed my mother sayiing "Who made her queen?" and "she's a bossy thing" about Buffy. She wanted to know if the show ever explained how Slayers were chosen. I had to tell her no, which was kind of embarrassing, seeing as the show is over 6 years old. ;) -- The way Andrew's story mirror's Spike's. Spike isn't comic relief anymore, so we have to see the humorous aspect of his story via the Warren arc. -- The fact that Wood is shaping up to be quite the morally ambiguous character. I like that. He's not all evil, but he's not a hero either. Not that he can't be. He could be good or evil at this point. -- An "I was right" moment. Buffy is still interested in Wood. So there was reason for that pregnant dramatic pause, and my irritation at her for the yes-no approach to Spike was warranted. -- It was kinda fun to see Buffy continue her ambivalence. "Spike, prove you have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) What I didn't like -- Xander's de-epiphanying. I thought he had realized how wrongly he had treated Anya, in general, and now he's said he doesn't think he was wrong to leave Anya at the altar. He doesn't get a couple of things... first, he was having doubts months before, and then was the time to rethink the wedding. Second, he had a right to call off the wedding, but not skulk away like a coward. -- The goodbye afterglow. It seemed like the show was trying to force an "end" to the relationship with a bout of bad sex. -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a fantasy show. -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his chief charm. -- Feeling sorry for Dawn again. Poor MT, shunted aside week after week these days. -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and the contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. Even if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, it's okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. You're not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're at it, grow some roots again. They're cute. -- We can feel the heat between Buffy and Spike? How does she relate to him the last couple eps besides crossing her arms and pursing her lips? I agree with Andrew. The sexual tension between Wood and Spike is pretty thick. ;) I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again for the chortles, it warrants at least that. Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-26 07:34:13+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Hawkboy <dobby@msn.com>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... >> -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and the > contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. Even > if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, it's > okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. You're > not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're at it, > grow some roots again. They're cute. > Rose > It's not Giles You do know Spike is not a real person right? He's an actor who wears and does what he's told. Hawkboy

2003-02-26 07:34:13+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Hawkboy <dobby@msn.com>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... >> -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and the > contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. Even > if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, it's > okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. You're > not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're at it, > grow some roots again. They're cute. > Rose > It's not Giles You do know Spike is not a real person right? He's an actor who wears and does what he's told. Hawkboy

2003-02-26 08:54:00+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: "Hawkboy" dobby@msn.com >Date: 2/25/2003 11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <V5_6a.339282$Yo4.12159158@news1.calgary.shaw.ca> > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... >>> -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and >the >> contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. >Even >> if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, >it's >> okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. >You're >> not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're >at it, >> grow some roots again. They're cute. >> Rose >> It's not Giles > >You do know Spike is not a real person >right? He's not a legal person, true. >He's an actor who wears and >does what he's told. > Look, one faked tirade in a dweeb's home documentary doesn't make Spike an actor. Has he ever attended acting classes? Done regional theater? Been so much as an extra? No. He does wear and do what he's told ::coughbuffywhippedcough:: but that has nothing to do with an acting career. Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-26 08:54:00+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: "Hawkboy" dobby@msn.com >Date: 2/25/2003 11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <V5_6a.339282$Yo4.12159158@news1.calgary.shaw.ca> > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... >>> -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and >the >> contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. >Even >> if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, >it's >> okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. >You're >> not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're >at it, >> grow some roots again. They're cute. >> Rose >> It's not Giles > >You do know Spike is not a real person >right? He's not a legal person, true. >He's an actor who wears and >does what he's told. > Look, one faked tirade in a dweeb's home documentary doesn't make Spike an actor. Has he ever attended acting classes? Done regional theater? Been so much as an extra? No. He does wear and do what he's told ::coughbuffywhippedcough:: but that has nothing to do with an acting career. Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-26 09:03:11-08:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... > I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again for > the chortles, it warrants at least that. Certainly, Rose, if it was the "mediumest episode everrrr!" then it would have garnered a 2.5 rating. Or are we dealing with a weighted system here?

2003-02-26 09:03:11-08:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... > I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again for > the chortles, it warrants at least that. Certainly, Rose, if it was the "mediumest episode everrrr!" then it would have garnered a 2.5 rating. Or are we dealing with a weighted system here?

2003-02-26 09:31:50+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Ken wrote: > >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had >serious doubts would have been wronger. No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being humiliated. Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-26 09:31:50+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Ken wrote: > >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had >serious doubts would have been wronger. No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being humiliated. Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-26 09:32:50+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Hawkboy" <dobby@msn.com> wrote in message news:V5_6a.339282$Yo4.12159158@news1.calgary.shaw.ca... > > "Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... > >> -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and > the > > contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. > Even > > if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, > it's > > okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. > You're > > not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're > at it, > > grow some roots again. They're cute. > > Rose > > It's not Giles > > You do know Spike is not a real person right? He's an actor who wears and > does what he's told. > > Hawkboy > > No. JAMES is an actor who wears and does what he's told. Spike is figment of Joss' imagination and James' performance. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-26 09:32:50+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Hawkboy" <dobby@msn.com> wrote in message news:V5_6a.339282$Yo4.12159158@news1.calgary.shaw.ca... > > "Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... > >> -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and > the > > contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. > Even > > if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, > it's > > okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. > You're > > not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're > at it, > > grow some roots again. They're cute. > > Rose > > It's not Giles > > You do know Spike is not a real person right? He's an actor who wears and > does what he's told. > > Hawkboy > > No. JAMES is an actor who wears and does what he's told. Spike is figment of Joss' imagination and James' performance. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-26 10:05:01+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... > here's what I liked about Andrew Ep aka "Storyteller" spoiler <snip> > -- I got to enjoy wacky ME humor watching a whole episode that focused more on > characters I find entertaining (Andrew, Jonathan, Warren, a dash of Spike and > Wood) than characters I don't find entertaining this sesaon. > > -- I was actually grateful for the crash course on the season arc. I didn't > realize it until hearing the lecture, but I was a little lost. I tend not to > pay attention to plotty things enough. > > -- A lot of the gags were very funny. > > -- I enjoyed my mother sayiing "Who made her queen?" and "she's a bossy thing" > about Buffy. She wanted to know if the show ever explained how Slayers were > chosen. I had to tell her no, which was kind of embarrassing, seeing as the > show is over 6 years old. ;) They never explained why FLAG never developed any other AI systems besides the Knight Industries Two Thousand, or how Xena had super leaping ability or why Sam would help Al get his wife back but Al never bothered to mention again to Sam that he himself was married. > -- The way Andrew's story mirror's Spike's. Spike isn't comic relief anymore, > so we have to see the humorous aspect of his story via the Warren arc. > > -- The fact that Wood is shaping up to be quite the morally ambiguous > character. I like that. He's not all evil, but he's not a hero either. Not > that he can't be. He could be good or evil at this point. I could have gone without the closeup of his spitting up water last episode. > -- An "I was right" moment. Buffy is still interested in Wood. So there was > reason for that pregnant dramatic pause, and my irritation at her for the > yes-no approach to Spike was warranted. What? When? Where? > -- It was kinda fun to see Buffy continue her ambivalence. "Spike, prove you > have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, > you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) To quote Spike from "Crush" of Season 5: "What is wrong with you bleeding women?!!!" Spike just can't win. > What I didn't like > > -- Xander's de-epiphanying. I thought he had realized how wrongly he had > treated Anya, in general, and now he's said he doesn't think he was wrong to > leave Anya at the altar. He doesn't get a couple of things... first, he was > having doubts months before, and then was the time to rethink the wedding. > Second, he had a right to call off the wedding, but not skulk away like a > coward. I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had serious doubts would have been wronger. A stitch in time saves nine. Better a bad wedding than a bad marriage. > -- The goodbye afterglow. It seemed like the show was trying to force an "end" > to the relationship with a bout of bad sex. Yeah, it felt as forced as Mulder feeling "this is the end of the road" in finding his sister in Season 7 of X-FILES with some lame channeler episode. > -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a fantasy > show. That did drag just a bit. Could have used a few more intercuts with the action "upstairs". > -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his chief > charm. And chief annoyance. Time to put away childish things. His total denial of murder was disturbing. Redemption requires truth, so it was with Spike, with Willow and so too with Andrew. > -- Feeling sorry for Dawn again. Poor MT, shunted aside week after week these > days. If only she got her own series .... > -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and the > contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. Even > if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, it's > okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. You're > not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're at it, > grow some roots again. They're cute. Hey, Buffy wanted more of The Killer in Spike, well that was part of the package. > -- We can feel the heat between Buffy and Spike? How does she relate to him > the last couple eps besides crossing her arms and pursing her lips? I agree > with Andrew. The sexual tension between Wood and Spike is pretty thick. ;) They have so few scenes just doing regular friend stuff as a foundation for anything more--or to show that anything more is unlikely (ala Xander / Anya "one more time" or the infamous Cordy / Wes kiss). > I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again for > the chortles, it warrants at least that. "I hope that's not one of the students." > Rose > It's not Giles Speaking of short shrift, where the frell was Giles? -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-26 10:05:01+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... > here's what I liked about Andrew Ep aka "Storyteller" spoiler <snip> > -- I got to enjoy wacky ME humor watching a whole episode that focused more on > characters I find entertaining (Andrew, Jonathan, Warren, a dash of Spike and > Wood) than characters I don't find entertaining this sesaon. > > -- I was actually grateful for the crash course on the season arc. I didn't > realize it until hearing the lecture, but I was a little lost. I tend not to > pay attention to plotty things enough. > > -- A lot of the gags were very funny. > > -- I enjoyed my mother sayiing "Who made her queen?" and "she's a bossy thing" > about Buffy. She wanted to know if the show ever explained how Slayers were > chosen. I had to tell her no, which was kind of embarrassing, seeing as the > show is over 6 years old. ;) They never explained why FLAG never developed any other AI systems besides the Knight Industries Two Thousand, or how Xena had super leaping ability or why Sam would help Al get his wife back but Al never bothered to mention again to Sam that he himself was married. > -- The way Andrew's story mirror's Spike's. Spike isn't comic relief anymore, > so we have to see the humorous aspect of his story via the Warren arc. > > -- The fact that Wood is shaping up to be quite the morally ambiguous > character. I like that. He's not all evil, but he's not a hero either. Not > that he can't be. He could be good or evil at this point. I could have gone without the closeup of his spitting up water last episode. > -- An "I was right" moment. Buffy is still interested in Wood. So there was > reason for that pregnant dramatic pause, and my irritation at her for the > yes-no approach to Spike was warranted. What? When? Where? > -- It was kinda fun to see Buffy continue her ambivalence. "Spike, prove you > have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, > you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) To quote Spike from "Crush" of Season 5: "What is wrong with you bleeding women?!!!" Spike just can't win. > What I didn't like > > -- Xander's de-epiphanying. I thought he had realized how wrongly he had > treated Anya, in general, and now he's said he doesn't think he was wrong to > leave Anya at the altar. He doesn't get a couple of things... first, he was > having doubts months before, and then was the time to rethink the wedding. > Second, he had a right to call off the wedding, but not skulk away like a > coward. I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had serious doubts would have been wronger. A stitch in time saves nine. Better a bad wedding than a bad marriage. > -- The goodbye afterglow. It seemed like the show was trying to force an "end" > to the relationship with a bout of bad sex. Yeah, it felt as forced as Mulder feeling "this is the end of the road" in finding his sister in Season 7 of X-FILES with some lame channeler episode. > -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a fantasy > show. That did drag just a bit. Could have used a few more intercuts with the action "upstairs". > -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his chief > charm. And chief annoyance. Time to put away childish things. His total denial of murder was disturbing. Redemption requires truth, so it was with Spike, with Willow and so too with Andrew. > -- Feeling sorry for Dawn again. Poor MT, shunted aside week after week these > days. If only she got her own series .... > -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and the > contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. Even > if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, it's > okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. You're > not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're at it, > grow some roots again. They're cute. Hey, Buffy wanted more of The Killer in Spike, well that was part of the package. > -- We can feel the heat between Buffy and Spike? How does she relate to him > the last couple eps besides crossing her arms and pursing her lips? I agree > with Andrew. The sexual tension between Wood and Spike is pretty thick. ;) They have so few scenes just doing regular friend stuff as a foundation for anything more--or to show that anything more is unlikely (ala Xander / Anya "one more time" or the infamous Cordy / Wes kiss). > I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again for > the chortles, it warrants at least that. "I hope that's not one of the students." > Rose > It's not Giles Speaking of short shrift, where the frell was Giles? -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-26 11:22:58+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Ken, whose antispam name makes me thinking that he erases faster than anyone else > >There was that whole Yoko Effect acting, single-handedly breaking up the >Scoobies, nor ro mention faking out Angelus and Dru, and let's not forget >that whole narration of Angel's endless fight for good in S1 of ATS. Pshaw. If he doesn't have a SAG or AFTRA card, I don't wanna hear about it... Rose, with insomnia

2003-02-26 11:22:58+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Ken, whose antispam name makes me thinking that he erases faster than anyone else > >There was that whole Yoko Effect acting, single-handedly breaking up the >Scoobies, nor ro mention faking out Angelus and Dru, and let's not forget >that whole narration of Angel's endless fight for good in S1 of ATS. Pshaw. If he doesn't have a SAG or AFTRA card, I don't wanna hear about it... Rose, with insomnia

2003-02-26 12:00:25+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030226035400.23689.00000206@mb-fd.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) > >From: "Hawkboy" dobby@msn.com > >Date: 2/25/2003 11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <V5_6a.339282$Yo4.12159158@news1.calgary.shaw.ca> > > > > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > >news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... > >>> -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and > >the > >> contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. > >Even > >> if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, > >it's > >> okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. > >You're > >> not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're > >at it, > >> grow some roots again. They're cute. > >> Rose > >> It's not Giles > > > >You do know Spike is not a real person >right? > > He's not a legal person, true. > > >He's an actor who wears and > >does what he's told. > > > > Look, one faked tirade in a dweeb's home documentary doesn't make Spike an > actor. Has he ever attended acting classes? Done regional theater? Been so > much as an extra? No. > > He does wear and do what he's told ::coughbuffywhippedcough:: but that has > nothing to do with an acting career. > > > > Rose > It's not Giles There was that whole Yoko Effect acting, single-handedly breaking up the Scoobies, nor ro mention faking out Angelus and Dru, and let's not forget that whole narration of Angel's endless fight for good in S1 of ATS. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-26 12:00:25+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030226035400.23689.00000206@mb-fd.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) > >From: "Hawkboy" dobby@msn.com > >Date: 2/25/2003 11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <V5_6a.339282$Yo4.12159158@news1.calgary.shaw.ca> > > > > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > >news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... > >>> -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and > >the > >> contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. > >Even > >> if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, > >it's > >> okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. > >You're > >> not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're > >at it, > >> grow some roots again. They're cute. > >> Rose > >> It's not Giles > > > >You do know Spike is not a real person >right? > > He's not a legal person, true. > > >He's an actor who wears and > >does what he's told. > > > > Look, one faked tirade in a dweeb's home documentary doesn't make Spike an > actor. Has he ever attended acting classes? Done regional theater? Been so > much as an extra? No. > > He does wear and do what he's told ::coughbuffywhippedcough:: but that has > nothing to do with an acting career. > > > > Rose > It's not Giles There was that whole Yoko Effect acting, single-handedly breaking up the Scoobies, nor ro mention faking out Angelus and Dru, and let's not forget that whole narration of Angel's endless fight for good in S1 of ATS. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-26 12:53:45-08:00 - Will this change Andrew? (was Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (himiko@animail.net)


bergeg@parl.gc.ca (NightBaron) wrote in message news:<24ab6293.0302260548.4064ed48@posting.google.com>... > fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... > > here's what I liked about Andrew Ep > > aka 'StoryTeller' spoilers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his > > chief charm. > > Change usually doesn't happen over night. Better not happen at all. Sure, this was one aspect of Andrew's past that he really had to deal with, but most of his fantasies are benign, charmingly innocent, wildly creative, and very, very funny. That we are as gods scene had me howling. himiko

2003-02-26 12:53:45-08:00 - Will this change Andrew? (was Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (himiko@animail.net)


bergeg@parl.gc.ca (NightBaron) wrote in message news:<24ab6293.0302260548.4064ed48@posting.google.com>... > fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... > > here's what I liked about Andrew Ep > > aka 'StoryTeller' spoilers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his > > chief charm. > > Change usually doesn't happen over night. Better not happen at all. Sure, this was one aspect of Andrew's past that he really had to deal with, but most of his fantasies are benign, charmingly innocent, wildly creative, and very, very funny. That we are as gods scene had me howling. himiko

2003-02-26 13:02:39+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com... > Ken wrote: > > > > >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had > >serious doubts would have been wronger. > > No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than > anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced > that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being > humiliated. > > > > > > Rose > It's not Giles I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong, but marrying her while having serious doubts would be have been worse. Marrying her THEN leaving her would have been much worse. Wedding schmedding, the phrase "is there anyone who has just cause why these two should not be wed" should not have to apply to the groom (or the bride). Ultimately what the wedding guests feel means jack squat in the greater scheme of things. And if the wedding guest lack the basic compassion, sympathy or empathy for Anya's plight, then who needs em? -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-26 13:02:39+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com... > Ken wrote: > > > > >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had > >serious doubts would have been wronger. > > No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than > anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced > that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being > humiliated. > > > > > > Rose > It's not Giles I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong, but marrying her while having serious doubts would be have been worse. Marrying her THEN leaving her would have been much worse. Wedding schmedding, the phrase "is there anyone who has just cause why these two should not be wed" should not have to apply to the groom (or the bride). Ultimately what the wedding guests feel means jack squat in the greater scheme of things. And if the wedding guest lack the basic compassion, sympathy or empathy for Anya's plight, then who needs em? -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-26 13:08:39+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030226062258.02752.00000223@mb-mp.aol.com... > Ken, whose antispam name makes me thinking that he erases faster than anyone > else > > > > >There was that whole Yoko Effect acting, single-handedly breaking up the > >Scoobies, nor ro mention faking out Angelus and Dru, and let's not forget > >that whole narration of Angel's endless fight for good in S1 of ATS. > > Pshaw. If he doesn't have a SAG or AFTRA card, I don't wanna hear about it... > > Rose, with insomnia > Don't be silly, it's british. He'd have a BAFTA card or some such, maybe even papers from the Globe. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-26 13:08:39+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030226062258.02752.00000223@mb-mp.aol.com... > Ken, whose antispam name makes me thinking that he erases faster than anyone > else > > > > >There was that whole Yoko Effect acting, single-handedly breaking up the > >Scoobies, nor ro mention faking out Angelus and Dru, and let's not forget > >that whole narration of Angel's endless fight for good in S1 of ATS. > > Pshaw. If he doesn't have a SAG or AFTRA card, I don't wanna hear about it... > > Rose, with insomnia > Don't be silly, it's british. He'd have a BAFTA card or some such, maybe even papers from the Globe. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-26 14:14:31-08:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030226132731.02752.00000253@mb-mp.aol.com>... > I just chose the header for the sake of humor rather than a literal expression > of the score. :) Well, there you go, completely shattering my faith in humanity. If I can't trust a usenet subject line, what on earth can I trust?! :)

2003-02-26 14:14:31-08:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030226132731.02752.00000253@mb-mp.aol.com>... > I just chose the header for the sake of humor rather than a literal expression > of the score. :) Well, there you go, completely shattering my faith in humanity. If I can't trust a usenet subject line, what on earth can I trust?! :)

2003-02-26 14:42:30-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > In article <20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam > says... > > > >Ken wrote: > > > >> > >>I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had > >>serious doubts would have been wronger. > > > >No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than > >anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced > >that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being > >humiliated. > > I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, you're not > really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, having > decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as badly as it > was possible to do -- with that I agree. See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, of course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to still love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance as anyone of achieving a successful marriage. >-- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-02-26 14:42:30-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > In article <20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam > says... > > > >Ken wrote: > > > >> > >>I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had > >>serious doubts would have been wronger. > > > >No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than > >anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced > >that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being > >humiliated. > > I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, you're not > really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, having > decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as badly as it > was possible to do -- with that I agree. See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, of course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to still love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance as anyone of achieving a successful marriage. >-- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-02-26 14:56:47-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 14:42:30 -0500, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any >thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of >their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, of >course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are >no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to still >love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance as >anyone of achieving a successful marriage. Well, Xander never seems to need to go to his regular construction job so why should he need to work at being married either? :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-02-26 14:56:47-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 14:42:30 -0500, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any >thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of >their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, of >course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are >no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to still >love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance as >anyone of achieving a successful marriage. Well, Xander never seems to need to go to his regular construction job so why should he need to work at being married either? :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-02-26 15:12:15+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (JoAnn Peeler <jpeeler@tampabay.rr.com>)


"Ken" <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:PV27a.548> > I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong, but marrying her while having > serious doubts would be have been worse. Marrying her THEN leaving her would > have been much worse. Wedding schmedding, the phrase "is there anyone who > has just cause why these two should not be wed" should not have to apply to > the groom (or the bride). Ultimately what the wedding guests feel means jack > squat in the greater scheme of things. > Agreed. This whole notion that leaving Anya at the alter was in "balance" wrong can probably be attributed to a deeply held, emotional attachment that many women have with weddings in general. This is the one day that can be all about us and its okay for us to be self indulgent. I can relate to the visceral reaction against Xander; however, as you point out Ken, on balance it was the right thing to do. However, its kind of like telling a Christian, that was better that we killed Jesus. By the tenants of Christian faith -- yes, but how can it ever be better to actually kill someone? Unfortunately, emotion drowns out logic most of the time. However, bless people like Xander who have the courage to make the really tough decisions when no one else seems interested in doing it. -- JoAnn Peeler

2003-02-26 15:12:15+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (JoAnn Peeler <jpeeler@tampabay.rr.com>)


"Ken" <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:PV27a.548> > I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong, but marrying her while having > serious doubts would be have been worse. Marrying her THEN leaving her would > have been much worse. Wedding schmedding, the phrase "is there anyone who > has just cause why these two should not be wed" should not have to apply to > the groom (or the bride). Ultimately what the wedding guests feel means jack > squat in the greater scheme of things. > Agreed. This whole notion that leaving Anya at the alter was in "balance" wrong can probably be attributed to a deeply held, emotional attachment that many women have with weddings in general. This is the one day that can be all about us and its okay for us to be self indulgent. I can relate to the visceral reaction against Xander; however, as you point out Ken, on balance it was the right thing to do. However, its kind of like telling a Christian, that was better that we killed Jesus. By the tenants of Christian faith -- yes, but how can it ever be better to actually kill someone? Unfortunately, emotion drowns out logic most of the time. However, bless people like Xander who have the courage to make the really tough decisions when no one else seems interested in doing it. -- JoAnn Peeler

2003-02-26 15:21:42-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) > >From: "Hawkboy" dobby@msn.com > >Date: 2/25/2003 11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <V5_6a.339282$Yo4.12159158@news1.calgary.shaw.ca> > > > > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > >news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... > >>> -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and > >the > >> contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. > >Even > >> if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, > >it's > >> okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. > >You're > >> not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're > >at it, > >> grow some roots again. They're cute. > >> Rose > >> It's not Giles > > > >You do know Spike is not a real person >right? > > He's not a legal person, true. > > >He's an actor who wears and > >does what he's told. > > > > Look, one faked tirade in a dweeb's home documentary doesn't make Spike an > actor. Has he ever attended acting classes? Done regional theater? Been so > much as an extra? No. Ah, but the prophecy in "Restless" was that he becomes an actor. Or maybe it meant a model. After he becomes a watcher, of course. > He does wear and do what he's told ::coughbuffywhippedcough:: but that has > nothing to do with an acting career. -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-02-26 15:21:42-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) > >From: "Hawkboy" dobby@msn.com > >Date: 2/25/2003 11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <V5_6a.339282$Yo4.12159158@news1.calgary.shaw.ca> > > > > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > >news:20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com... > >>> -- Spike's return to the chronic Halloween costume, the white pancake and > >the > >> contour stripes on the cheeks. Dude, there are no demons in the kitchen. > >Even > >> if the First is there, the leather jacket is not going to help. Really, > >it's > >> okay to wear shirtsleeves and leave the cig and stage makeup behind. > >You're > >> not an adolescent street hood anymore, you're a MAAAN. And while you're > >at it, > >> grow some roots again. They're cute. > >> Rose > >> It's not Giles > > > >You do know Spike is not a real person >right? > > He's not a legal person, true. > > >He's an actor who wears and > >does what he's told. > > > > Look, one faked tirade in a dweeb's home documentary doesn't make Spike an > actor. Has he ever attended acting classes? Done regional theater? Been so > much as an extra? No. Ah, but the prophecy in "Restless" was that he becomes an actor. Or maybe it meant a model. After he becomes a watcher, of course. > He does wear and do what he's told ::coughbuffywhippedcough:: but that has > nothing to do with an acting career. -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-02-26 15:38:10-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > Ken wrote: > > > > >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had > >serious doubts would have been wronger. > > No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than > anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced > that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being > humiliated. Yes, it would have IMO. That was only for a day. Marriage would have been forever, or at least many months. Besides, even though we've all been focussing on how classlessly Xander left the wedding, Anya could have done a lot better too. She could have spoken up for herself, "Hey, Xander, don't leave me to explain it all by myself." Failing that, she could have announced "The wedding's off. Xander changed his mind." How hard would that have been? If you think about it, Xander's the one who comes off looking bad. There are two separate things: the anger and rejection and loss she felt at not shackling Xander into marriage as she expected to, and the moments of embarrassment when she walked down the aisle without Xander, her "perfect" day spoiled. By conflating the two, it gets puffed up into a whole big thing, justified by the latter but really powered by the former. That said, Xander should never have procrastinated till the last moment. He let the situation get worse and worse. He shouldn't even have proposed in TG if he had such doubts - and if he didn't have them then, he didn't have a brain. -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-02-26 15:38:10-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > Ken wrote: > > > > >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had > >serious doubts would have been wronger. > > No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than > anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced > that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being > humiliated. Yes, it would have IMO. That was only for a day. Marriage would have been forever, or at least many months. Besides, even though we've all been focussing on how classlessly Xander left the wedding, Anya could have done a lot better too. She could have spoken up for herself, "Hey, Xander, don't leave me to explain it all by myself." Failing that, she could have announced "The wedding's off. Xander changed his mind." How hard would that have been? If you think about it, Xander's the one who comes off looking bad. There are two separate things: the anger and rejection and loss she felt at not shackling Xander into marriage as she expected to, and the moments of embarrassment when she walked down the aisle without Xander, her "perfect" day spoiled. By conflating the two, it gets puffed up into a whole big thing, justified by the latter but really powered by the former. That said, Xander should never have procrastinated till the last moment. He let the situation get worse and worse. He shouldn't even have proposed in TG if he had such doubts - and if he didn't have them then, he didn't have a brain. -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-02-26 16:16:46+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


JoAnn Peeler wrote: > >Agreed. This whole notion that leaving Anya at the alter was in "balance" >wrong can probably be attributed to a deeply held, emotional attachment that >many women have with weddings in general. I remember some men were very upset by Xander walking out on the wedding. One of them was furious that Xander would let a demon's spell lead him to give up on love. I've never been so angry about calling off the wedding on the wedding day, more about HOW he did it. Just walking away was inexcusable. > I can relate to the >visceral reaction against Xander; however, as you point out Ken, on balance >it was the right thing to do. I think most people feel that Xander was right not to marry Anya if he didn't want to. Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-26 16:16:46+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


JoAnn Peeler wrote: > >Agreed. This whole notion that leaving Anya at the alter was in "balance" >wrong can probably be attributed to a deeply held, emotional attachment that >many women have with weddings in general. I remember some men were very upset by Xander walking out on the wedding. One of them was furious that Xander would let a demon's spell lead him to give up on love. I've never been so angry about calling off the wedding on the wedding day, more about HOW he did it. Just walking away was inexcusable. > I can relate to the >visceral reaction against Xander; however, as you point out Ken, on balance >it was the right thing to do. I think most people feel that Xander was right not to marry Anya if he didn't want to. Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-26 16:22:44-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:b3j740$gag$4@slb6.atl.mindspring.net... > In article <cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com>, slnospambilan@comcast.net > says... > > > > > > > >"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > >news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > > >> I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, you're > >> not really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, > >> having decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as > >> badly as it was possible to do -- with that I agree. > > > >See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any > >thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of > >their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, of > >course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are > >no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to still > >love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance as > >anyone of achieving a successful marriage. > > Rehashing an old argument, but... to me, it seemed very clear that what > *really* freaked him out was the fear that he'd turn into his father, and treat > Anya like his father treats his mother. Until he has enough confidence in > himself to know he can avoid that path, I think he'd be making a mistake to > marry anyone. > I said to my husband a long time ago, "You know what's really scary? You and me in thirty years is going to look like your Father married to my Mother." And we both shuddered in horror. But, it's inevitable *to a certain degree*. We really only have two main teachers in life to show us how to be parents and how to be married and that's our own parents. It takes a strong concious effort to overcome those early influences and reject our parents notions of marriage and family (provided those notions need to be rejected, in my case they did). It can be done, it isn't easy, but it can be done. Xander is always going to carry those doubts about himself around until he actually gets married and proves to himself that his life can be completely different from his parents. > -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-02-26 16:22:44-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:b3j740$gag$4@slb6.atl.mindspring.net... > In article <cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com>, slnospambilan@comcast.net > says... > > > > > > > >"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > >news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > > >> I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, you're > >> not really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, > >> having decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as > >> badly as it was possible to do -- with that I agree. > > > >See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any > >thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of > >their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, of > >course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are > >no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to still > >love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance as > >anyone of achieving a successful marriage. > > Rehashing an old argument, but... to me, it seemed very clear that what > *really* freaked him out was the fear that he'd turn into his father, and treat > Anya like his father treats his mother. Until he has enough confidence in > himself to know he can avoid that path, I think he'd be making a mistake to > marry anyone. > I said to my husband a long time ago, "You know what's really scary? You and me in thirty years is going to look like your Father married to my Mother." And we both shuddered in horror. But, it's inevitable *to a certain degree*. We really only have two main teachers in life to show us how to be parents and how to be married and that's our own parents. It takes a strong concious effort to overcome those early influences and reject our parents notions of marriage and family (provided those notions need to be rejected, in my case they did). It can be done, it isn't easy, but it can be done. Xander is always going to carry those doubts about himself around until he actually gets married and proves to himself that his life can be completely different from his parents. > -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-02-26 17:01:15+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (stardreamer@mindspring.com)


In article <20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > >Ken wrote: > >> >>I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had >>serious doubts would have been wronger. > >No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than >anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced >that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being >humiliated. I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, you're not really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, having decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as badly as it was possible to do -- with that I agree. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

2003-02-26 17:01:15+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (stardreamer@mindspring.com)


In article <20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > >Ken wrote: > >> >>I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he had >>serious doubts would have been wronger. > >No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than >anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced >that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being >humiliated. I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, you're not really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, having decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as badly as it was possible to do -- with that I agree. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

2003-02-26 18:27:31+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>ubject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu (Sean Daugherty) >Date: 2/26/2003 9:03 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <f259cf95.0302260903.62ed5e19@posting.google.com> > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message >news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... >> I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again >for >> the chortles, it warrants at least that. > >Certainly, Rose, if it was the "mediumest episode everrrr!" then it >would have garnered a 2.5 rating. Or are we dealing with a weighted >system here? > > I don't consider 0 to be a score because when George started this poll, the lowest score was 1. So my true middle or "par" score is 3. I just chose the header for the sake of humor rather than a literal expression of the score. :) Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-26 18:27:31+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>ubject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu (Sean Daugherty) >Date: 2/26/2003 9:03 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <f259cf95.0302260903.62ed5e19@posting.google.com> > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message >news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... >> I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again >for >> the chortles, it warrants at least that. > >Certainly, Rose, if it was the "mediumest episode everrrr!" then it >would have garnered a 2.5 rating. Or are we dealing with a weighted >system here? > > I don't consider 0 to be a score because when George started this poll, the lowest score was 1. So my true middle or "par" score is 3. I just chose the header for the sake of humor rather than a literal expression of the score. :) Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-26 20:12:48+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (stardreamer@mindspring.com)


In article <cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com>, slnospambilan@comcast.net says... > > > >"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message >news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... >> I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, you're >> not really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, >> having decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as >> badly as it was possible to do -- with that I agree. > >See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any >thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of >their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, of >course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are >no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to still >love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance as >anyone of achieving a successful marriage. Rehashing an old argument, but... to me, it seemed very clear that what *really* freaked him out was the fear that he'd turn into his father, and treat Anya like his father treats his mother. Until he has enough confidence in himself to know he can avoid that path, I think he'd be making a mistake to marry anyone. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

2003-02-26 20:12:48+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (stardreamer@mindspring.com)


In article <cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com>, slnospambilan@comcast.net says... > > > >"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message >news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... >> I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, you're >> not really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, >> having decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as >> badly as it was possible to do -- with that I agree. > >See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any >thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of >their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, of >course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are >no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to still >love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance as >anyone of achieving a successful marriage. Rehashing an old argument, but... to me, it seemed very clear that what *really* freaked him out was the fear that he'd turn into his father, and treat Anya like his father treats his mother. Until he has enough confidence in himself to know he can avoid that path, I think he'd be making a mistake to marry anyone. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

2003-02-26 20:46:55+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: stardreamer@mindspring.com (Lee S. Billings) >Date: 2/26/2003 9:01 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net> > >In article <20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam > >says... >> >>Ken wrote: >> >>> >>>I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he >had >>>serious doubts would have been wronger. >> >>No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than >>anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced >>that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being >>humiliated. > >I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, you're >not >really arguing that he should have married >her anyhow, are you? Yeah, I made myself clear to one person! :) >But, having >decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as badly as >it >was possible to do -- with that I agree. > Right. Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-26 20:46:55+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: stardreamer@mindspring.com (Lee S. Billings) >Date: 2/26/2003 9:01 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net> > >In article <20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam > >says... >> >>Ken wrote: >> >>> >>>I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he >had >>>serious doubts would have been wronger. >> >>No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse than >>anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced >>that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being >>humiliated. > >I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, you're >not >really arguing that he should have married >her anyhow, are you? Yeah, I made myself clear to one person! :) >But, having >decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as badly as >it >was possible to do -- with that I agree. > Right. Rose It's not Giles

2003-02-27 02:02:34+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in message news:cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com... > > > "Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > > In article <20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com>, > fylmfan@aol.comspam > > says... > > > > > >Ken wrote: > > > > > >> > > >>I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he > had > > >>serious doubts would have been wronger. > > > > > >No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse > than > > >anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and > announced > > >that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya > being > > >humiliated. > > > > I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, > you're not > > really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, > having > > decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as badly > as it > > was possible to do -- with that I agree. > > See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any > thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of > their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, of > course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are > no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to still > love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance as > anyone of achieving a successful marriage. He was from a family where Really Bad Things Happened. The fact that Xander and Willow were able to stay out repeatedly overnight while in high school was not a good on it's own. And S4's "Restless" as well as S5's "Hell's Belles" strongly indicate there were some deeply wrong things going on in the Harris household. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-27 02:02:34+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in message news:cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com... > > > "Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > > In article <20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com>, > fylmfan@aol.comspam > > says... > > > > > >Ken wrote: > > > > > >> > > >>I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he > had > > >>serious doubts would have been wronger. > > > > > >No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse > than > > >anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and > announced > > >that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya > being > > >humiliated. > > > > I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, > you're not > > really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, > having > > decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as badly > as it > > was possible to do -- with that I agree. > > See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any > thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of > their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, of > course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are > no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to still > love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance as > anyone of achieving a successful marriage. He was from a family where Really Bad Things Happened. The fact that Xander and Willow were able to stay out repeatedly overnight while in high school was not a good on it's own. And S4's "Restless" as well as S5's "Hell's Belles" strongly indicate there were some deeply wrong things going on in the Harris household. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-27 02:14:10+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in message news:XbWdnR30ZucgrcCjXTWc3Q@comcast.com... > > > "Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:b3j740$gag$4@slb6.atl.mindspring.net... > > In article <cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com>, slnospambilan@comcast.net > > says... > > > > > > > > > > > >"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > >news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > > > > >> I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, > you're > > >> not really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? > But, > > >> having decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off > as > > >> badly as it was possible to do -- with that I agree. > > > > > >See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any > > >thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest > of > > >their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, > of > > >course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there > are > > >no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to > still > > >love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance > as > > >anyone of achieving a successful marriage. > > > > Rehashing an old argument, but... to me, it seemed very clear that what > > *really* freaked him out was the fear that he'd turn into his father, and > treat > > Anya like his father treats his mother. Until he has enough confidence in > > himself to know he can avoid that path, I think he'd be making a mistake > to > > marry anyone. > > > I said to my husband a long time ago, "You know what's really scary? You > and me in thirty years is going to look like your Father married to my > Mother." And we both shuddered in horror. But, it's inevitable *to a > certain degree*. We really only have two main teachers in life to show us > how to be parents and how to be married and that's our own parents. It > takes a strong concious effort to overcome those early influences and reject > our parents notions of marriage and family (provided those notions need to > be rejected, in my case they did). It can be done, it isn't easy, but it > can be done. Xander is always going to carry those doubts about himself > around until he actually gets married and proves to himself that his life > can be completely different from his parents. The fact that he WAS able to walk out on Anya was a fairly strong indicator he should not have walked down the aisle with her. It's like writing, if someone can convince you not to get into the writing field--then you really shouldn't get into it. Better for Anya to marry someone willing to take the plunge. Personally, I think Xander's REAL failing wasn't so much leaving Anya at the altar but NOT revealing his fears to her--or more simply, not communicating. He grew up in a family where secrecy was the order of the day, where talk was used to HIDE and not share. Xander has seen that pain secrecy can cause, and has often been the one to speak the uncomfortable truth, except when it's really really personal. -- Ken from Chicago P.S. That's why Xander and Spike bicker so much: they are so much alike in being willing to say the uncomfortable truth. However Spike takes it that last step, being willing to speak it of and about himself.

2003-02-27 02:14:10+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in message news:XbWdnR30ZucgrcCjXTWc3Q@comcast.com... > > > "Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:b3j740$gag$4@slb6.atl.mindspring.net... > > In article <cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com>, slnospambilan@comcast.net > > says... > > > > > > > > > > > >"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > >news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > > > > >> I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, > you're > > >> not really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? > But, > > >> having decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off > as > > >> badly as it was possible to do -- with that I agree. > > > > > >See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any > > >thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest > of > > >their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, > of > > >course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there > are > > >no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to > still > > >love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance > as > > >anyone of achieving a successful marriage. > > > > Rehashing an old argument, but... to me, it seemed very clear that what > > *really* freaked him out was the fear that he'd turn into his father, and > treat > > Anya like his father treats his mother. Until he has enough confidence in > > himself to know he can avoid that path, I think he'd be making a mistake > to > > marry anyone. > > > I said to my husband a long time ago, "You know what's really scary? You > and me in thirty years is going to look like your Father married to my > Mother." And we both shuddered in horror. But, it's inevitable *to a > certain degree*. We really only have two main teachers in life to show us > how to be parents and how to be married and that's our own parents. It > takes a strong concious effort to overcome those early influences and reject > our parents notions of marriage and family (provided those notions need to > be rejected, in my case they did). It can be done, it isn't easy, but it > can be done. Xander is always going to carry those doubts about himself > around until he actually gets married and proves to himself that his life > can be completely different from his parents. The fact that he WAS able to walk out on Anya was a fairly strong indicator he should not have walked down the aisle with her. It's like writing, if someone can convince you not to get into the writing field--then you really shouldn't get into it. Better for Anya to marry someone willing to take the plunge. Personally, I think Xander's REAL failing wasn't so much leaving Anya at the altar but NOT revealing his fears to her--or more simply, not communicating. He grew up in a family where secrecy was the order of the day, where talk was used to HIDE and not share. Xander has seen that pain secrecy can cause, and has often been the one to speak the uncomfortable truth, except when it's really really personal. -- Ken from Chicago P.S. That's why Xander and Spike bicker so much: they are so much alike in being willing to say the uncomfortable truth. However Spike takes it that last step, being willing to speak it of and about himself.

2003-02-27 05:28:04+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com >Date: 2/26/2003 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <m3k7fmok0d.fsf@panix.com> > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >> Ken wrote: >> >> > >> >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he >had >> >serious doubts would have been wronger. >> >> No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse >than >> anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced >> that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being >> humiliated. > >Yes, it would have IMO. That was only for a day. Marriage would have >been forever, or at least many months. > Not necessarily. They could have gotten a divorce the next day. But again, I'm not saying Xander had to marry Anya. >Besides, even though we've all been focussing on how classlessly >Xander left the wedding, Anya could have done a lot better too. She >could have spoken up for herself, "Hey, Xander, don't leave me to >explain it all by myself." > She could have, in that moment that her heart was smashed to pieces (this isn't pity from me, it's just true), but not doing so was not morally wrong. >Failing that, she could have announced "The wedding's off. Xander >changed his mind." How hard would that have been? If you think about >it, Xander's the one who comes off looking bad. > He may come off looking bad, but Anya comes off looking like a pathetic reject. >There are two separate things: the anger and rejection and loss she >felt at not shackling Xander into marriage >as she expected to, He was the one who proposed, and when Anya confronted him as to whether he really wanted to get married ("Don't you want to get married?" she said) Xander insisted he did. >and the >moments of embarrassment when she walked down the aisle without >Xander, her "perfect" day spoiled.

2003-02-27 05:28:04+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com >Date: 2/26/2003 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <m3k7fmok0d.fsf@panix.com> > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >> Ken wrote: >> >> > >> >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he >had >> >serious doubts would have been wronger. >> >> No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse >than >> anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced >> that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being >> humiliated. > >Yes, it would have IMO. That was only for a day. Marriage would have >been forever, or at least many months. > Not necessarily. They could have gotten a divorce the next day. But again, I'm not saying Xander had to marry Anya. >Besides, even though we've all been focussing on how classlessly >Xander left the wedding, Anya could have done a lot better too. She >could have spoken up for herself, "Hey, Xander, don't leave me to >explain it all by myself." > She could have, in that moment that her heart was smashed to pieces (this isn't pity from me, it's just true), but not doing so was not morally wrong. >Failing that, she could have announced "The wedding's off. Xander >changed his mind." How hard would that have been? If you think about >it, Xander's the one who comes off looking bad. > He may come off looking bad, but Anya comes off looking like a pathetic reject. >There are two separate things: the anger and rejection and loss she >felt at not shackling Xander into marriage >as she expected to, He was the one who proposed, and when Anya confronted him as to whether he really wanted to get married ("Don't you want to get married?" she said) Xander insisted he did. >and the >moments of embarrassment when she walked down the aisle without >Xander, her "perfect" day spoiled.

2003-02-27 06:32:06+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (stardreamer@mindspring.com)


In article <Rve7a.807$rM4.176503@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>, kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net says... >Personally, I think Xander's REAL failing wasn't so much leaving Anya at the >altar but NOT revealing his fears to her--or more simply, not communicating. Well, duh! One of the HUGE overriding themes in the entire series has been people not being willing to communicate when they needed to, and the trouble it lands them in. Every single one of the characters has done this, repeatedly. While it makes for good dramatic conflict, after a while one starts to wonder just *how many times* they need to be whacked with the Cosmic 2x4 before the lesson will sink in. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

2003-02-27 06:32:06+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (stardreamer@mindspring.com)


In article <Rve7a.807$rM4.176503@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>, kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net says... >Personally, I think Xander's REAL failing wasn't so much leaving Anya at the >altar but NOT revealing his fears to her--or more simply, not communicating. Well, duh! One of the HUGE overriding themes in the entire series has been people not being willing to communicate when they needed to, and the trouble it lands them in. Every single one of the characters has done this, repeatedly. While it makes for good dramatic conflict, after a while one starts to wonder just *how many times* they need to be whacked with the Cosmic 2x4 before the lesson will sink in. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

2003-02-27 08:34:24+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:b3kbd6$l4$5@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > In article <Rve7a.807$rM4.176503@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>, > kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net says... > > >Personally, I think Xander's REAL failing wasn't so much leaving Anya at the > >altar but NOT revealing his fears to her--or more simply, not communicating. > > Well, duh! One of the HUGE overriding themes in the entire series has been > people not being willing to communicate when they needed to, and the trouble it > lands them in. Every single one of the characters has done this, repeatedly. > While it makes for good dramatic conflict, after a while one starts to wonder > just *how many times* they need to be whacked with the Cosmic 2x4 before the > lesson will sink in. > > Celine Lack of communication has been mentioned as the Ultimate Big Bad of the entire series (by a certain citizen of the Windy City, who shall remain nameless). -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-27 08:34:24+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:b3kbd6$l4$5@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > In article <Rve7a.807$rM4.176503@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>, > kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net says... > > >Personally, I think Xander's REAL failing wasn't so much leaving Anya at the > >altar but NOT revealing his fears to her--or more simply, not communicating. > > Well, duh! One of the HUGE overriding themes in the entire series has been > people not being willing to communicate when they needed to, and the trouble it > lands them in. Every single one of the characters has done this, repeatedly. > While it makes for good dramatic conflict, after a while one starts to wonder > just *how many times* they need to be whacked with the Cosmic 2x4 before the > lesson will sink in. > > Celine Lack of communication has been mentioned as the Ultimate Big Bad of the entire series (by a certain citizen of the Windy City, who shall remain nameless). -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-27 09:02:12+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030227002804.00104.00000213@mb-fu.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) > >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com > >Date: 2/26/2003 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <m3k7fmok0d.fsf@panix.com> > > > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > > > >> Ken wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he > >had > >> >serious doubts would have been wronger. > >> > >> No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse > >than > >> anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced > >> that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being > >> humiliated. > > > >Yes, it would have IMO. That was only for a day. Marriage would have > >been forever, or at least many months. > > > > Not necessarily. They could have gotten a divorce the next day. But again, > I'm not saying Xander had to marry Anya. > > >Besides, even though we've all been focussing on how classlessly > >Xander left the wedding, Anya could have done a lot better too. She > >could have spoken up for herself, "Hey, Xander, don't leave me to > >explain it all by myself." > > > > She could have, in that moment that her heart was smashed to pieces (this isn't > pity from me, it's just true), but not doing so was not morally wrong. > > >Failing that, she could have announced "The wedding's off. Xander > >changed his mind." How hard would that have been? If you think about > >it, Xander's the one who comes off looking bad. > > > > He may come off looking bad, but Anya comes off looking like a pathetic reject. That says far less about the lookee and than the looker--and a lack of simple compassion. Her real friends would understand and if they didn't understand then obviously they were not her real friends. > >There are two separate things: the anger and rejection and loss she > >felt at not shackling Xander into marriage >as she expected to, > > He was the one who proposed, and when Anya confronted him as to whether he > really wanted to get married ("Don't you want to get married?" she said) Xander > insisted he did. Yeah, that makes Xander look even worse. Anya had said he was merely proposing just because he thought it was the end of the world (again), and while that may not have been the case at the time, clearly the full implications hadn't registered on him--much less the damaged caused by "raising the stakes", taking the relationship to "the next level" and then backing down. As Buffy, queen of relationships, succinctly pointed out, Xander left Anya at the altar but still wanted to date. That's profoundly disturbing on so many levels. > >and the > >moments of embarrassment when she walked down the aisle without > >Xander, her "perfect" day spoiled. > > From your tone I get the impression you think this is kind of trivial, but let > me tell you, I think I would have been literally suicidal in Anya's shoes. > It's not just a matter of her fun party being spoiled, it's a matter of her > groom rejecting her publicly. Since Xander didn't get up in front of the guests > and say "I'm not marrying Anya today because Dad, you were such a monster of a > father that I'm afraid I will become like you and hurt Anya," it would come off > to the guests as a rejection of her. Public rejection and humiliation is > extremely painful. Not to mention the personal pain Anya experienced at > Xander's breaking off the marriage. The latter was unavoidable, one of life's > hard knocks, but the former was perfectly avoidable. Xander allowing it to > happen was despicably cruel and cowardly. > > > Rose > Wood: Very wrong. And yet understandable. > It's not Giles, no, it's not The flip side is focusing so much on the wedding and treating the marriage as trivial. Caring more about what wedding guests think than the person for whom one allegedly is forsaking all others seems to have priorities out of whack. IMHO I'd take a bad wedding and a good marriage ten days of week over a good wedding and a bad marriage--to say nothing of one that led to divorce. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-27 09:02:12+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030227002804.00104.00000213@mb-fu.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) > >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com > >Date: 2/26/2003 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <m3k7fmok0d.fsf@panix.com> > > > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > > > >> Ken wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he > >had > >> >serious doubts would have been wronger. > >> > >> No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse > >than > >> anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced > >> that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being > >> humiliated. > > > >Yes, it would have IMO. That was only for a day. Marriage would have > >been forever, or at least many months. > > > > Not necessarily. They could have gotten a divorce the next day. But again, > I'm not saying Xander had to marry Anya. > > >Besides, even though we've all been focussing on how classlessly > >Xander left the wedding, Anya could have done a lot better too. She > >could have spoken up for herself, "Hey, Xander, don't leave me to > >explain it all by myself." > > > > She could have, in that moment that her heart was smashed to pieces (this isn't > pity from me, it's just true), but not doing so was not morally wrong. > > >Failing that, she could have announced "The wedding's off. Xander > >changed his mind." How hard would that have been? If you think about > >it, Xander's the one who comes off looking bad. > > > > He may come off looking bad, but Anya comes off looking like a pathetic reject. That says far less about the lookee and than the looker--and a lack of simple compassion. Her real friends would understand and if they didn't understand then obviously they were not her real friends. > >There are two separate things: the anger and rejection and loss she > >felt at not shackling Xander into marriage >as she expected to, > > He was the one who proposed, and when Anya confronted him as to whether he > really wanted to get married ("Don't you want to get married?" she said) Xander > insisted he did. Yeah, that makes Xander look even worse. Anya had said he was merely proposing just because he thought it was the end of the world (again), and while that may not have been the case at the time, clearly the full implications hadn't registered on him--much less the damaged caused by "raising the stakes", taking the relationship to "the next level" and then backing down. As Buffy, queen of relationships, succinctly pointed out, Xander left Anya at the altar but still wanted to date. That's profoundly disturbing on so many levels. > >and the > >moments of embarrassment when she walked down the aisle without > >Xander, her "perfect" day spoiled. > > From your tone I get the impression you think this is kind of trivial, but let > me tell you, I think I would have been literally suicidal in Anya's shoes. > It's not just a matter of her fun party being spoiled, it's a matter of her > groom rejecting her publicly. Since Xander didn't get up in front of the guests > and say "I'm not marrying Anya today because Dad, you were such a monster of a > father that I'm afraid I will become like you and hurt Anya," it would come off > to the guests as a rejection of her. Public rejection and humiliation is > extremely painful. Not to mention the personal pain Anya experienced at > Xander's breaking off the marriage. The latter was unavoidable, one of life's > hard knocks, but the former was perfectly avoidable. Xander allowing it to > happen was despicably cruel and cowardly. > > > Rose > Wood: Very wrong. And yet understandable. > It's not Giles, no, it's not The flip side is focusing so much on the wedding and treating the marriage as trivial. Caring more about what wedding guests think than the person for whom one allegedly is forsaking all others seems to have priorities out of whack. IMHO I'd take a bad wedding and a good marriage ten days of week over a good wedding and a bad marriage--to say nothing of one that led to divorce. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-27 12:52:02-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Alicat" <isalicat@ev1.net> wrote in message news:lu2r5voasbfg25j55agm6n0oepik6t0tn5@4ax.com... > On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 16:22:44 -0500, "DarkMagic" > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > >"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > >news:b3j740$gag$4@slb6.atl.mindspring.net... > >> In article <cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com>, slnospambilan@comcast.net > >> says... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > >> >news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > >> > >> >> I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, > >you're > >> >> not really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? > >But, > >> >> having decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off > >as > >> >> badly as it was possible to do -- with that I agree. > >> > > >> >See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any > >> >thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest > >of > >> >their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, > >of > >> >course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there > >are > >> >no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to > >still > >> >love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance > >as > >> >anyone of achieving a successful marriage. > >> > >> Rehashing an old argument, but... to me, it seemed very clear that what > >> *really* freaked him out was the fear that he'd turn into his father, and > >treat > >> Anya like his father treats his mother. Until he has enough confidence in > >> himself to know he can avoid that path, I think he'd be making a mistake > >to > >> marry anyone. > >> > >I said to my husband a long time ago, "You know what's really scary? You > >and me in thirty years is going to look like your Father married to my > >Mother." And we both shuddered in horror. But, it's inevitable *to a > >certain degree*. We really only have two main teachers in life to show us > >how to be parents and how to be married and that's our own parents. It > >takes a strong concious effort to overcome those early influences and reject > >our parents notions of marriage and family (provided those notions need to > >be rejected, in my case they did). It can be done, it isn't easy, but it > >can be done. Xander is always going to carry those doubts about himself > >around until he actually gets married and proves to himself that his life > >can be completely different from his parents. > > > > > > > >> -- > >Shannon > > <snipped a good sig file> > > exactly. > If they truly love each other after a year of everything, including > the broken wedding, they have a pretty good chance....which is would > be a more mature ME understanding that the "in love" stuff wears off > after awhile (varies in each case, of course) and the > commitment-for-a-lifetime-to-someone-you-can-really-trust stuff sets > in. But in MEWorld(TM), people don't get to be happy just because they > achieved an understanding of happiness, right? I think the writers at ME are personally and philosophically opposed to happiness. > I hit 25 years of wedded whatever (bliss/despair in various > doses, coupled with happiness and all the other states) That about sums it up, I'd say. this year and > your statement rang true - in my case, my parents are a great example > after almost 50 years and my husband's parents were (his dad is a > parrot) a terrible example, but not in the same vein as Xander's.... Right, no two horrible marriages are exactly alike. > I have come to experience that if one goes into the marriage with the > idea that divorce is not an option, you get to the mature happiness > stuff in a year or two and then you can really work on making the > 'strong conscious effort' you describe...) > I agree. I'm personally and philosophically opposed to divorce unless the circumstances are dire. Not that there hasn't been plenty of times in the last 13 years that I didn't look at my spouse and think "What the hell am I going to do with you for the rest of my life?" And I don't doubt that he's pondered the same. The committment is the key factor. I think if Xander and Anya really love each other and they're both committed to making it work it will work. Which, is pretty much the consensus they came to that day they were hiding out in their bathroom away from their relatives. I thought they both got it then, but apparently not. > -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-02-27 12:52:02-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Alicat" <isalicat@ev1.net> wrote in message news:lu2r5voasbfg25j55agm6n0oepik6t0tn5@4ax.com... > On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 16:22:44 -0500, "DarkMagic" > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > >"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > >news:b3j740$gag$4@slb6.atl.mindspring.net... > >> In article <cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com>, slnospambilan@comcast.net > >> says... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >"Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > >> >news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > >> > >> >> I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, > >you're > >> >> not really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? > >But, > >> >> having decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off > >as > >> >> badly as it was possible to do -- with that I agree. > >> > > >> >See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any > >> >thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest > >of > >> >their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, > >of > >> >course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there > >are > >> >no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to > >still > >> >love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance > >as > >> >anyone of achieving a successful marriage. > >> > >> Rehashing an old argument, but... to me, it seemed very clear that what > >> *really* freaked him out was the fear that he'd turn into his father, and > >treat > >> Anya like his father treats his mother. Until he has enough confidence in > >> himself to know he can avoid that path, I think he'd be making a mistake > >to > >> marry anyone. > >> > >I said to my husband a long time ago, "You know what's really scary? You > >and me in thirty years is going to look like your Father married to my > >Mother." And we both shuddered in horror. But, it's inevitable *to a > >certain degree*. We really only have two main teachers in life to show us > >how to be parents and how to be married and that's our own parents. It > >takes a strong concious effort to overcome those early influences and reject > >our parents notions of marriage and family (provided those notions need to > >be rejected, in my case they did). It can be done, it isn't easy, but it > >can be done. Xander is always going to carry those doubts about himself > >around until he actually gets married and proves to himself that his life > >can be completely different from his parents. > > > > > > > >> -- > >Shannon > > <snipped a good sig file> > > exactly. > If they truly love each other after a year of everything, including > the broken wedding, they have a pretty good chance....which is would > be a more mature ME understanding that the "in love" stuff wears off > after awhile (varies in each case, of course) and the > commitment-for-a-lifetime-to-someone-you-can-really-trust stuff sets > in. But in MEWorld(TM), people don't get to be happy just because they > achieved an understanding of happiness, right? I think the writers at ME are personally and philosophically opposed to happiness. > I hit 25 years of wedded whatever (bliss/despair in various > doses, coupled with happiness and all the other states) That about sums it up, I'd say. this year and > your statement rang true - in my case, my parents are a great example > after almost 50 years and my husband's parents were (his dad is a > parrot) a terrible example, but not in the same vein as Xander's.... Right, no two horrible marriages are exactly alike. > I have come to experience that if one goes into the marriage with the > idea that divorce is not an option, you get to the mature happiness > stuff in a year or two and then you can really work on making the > 'strong conscious effort' you describe...) > I agree. I'm personally and philosophically opposed to divorce unless the circumstances are dire. Not that there hasn't been plenty of times in the last 13 years that I didn't look at my spouse and think "What the hell am I going to do with you for the rest of my life?" And I don't doubt that he's pondered the same. The committment is the key factor. I think if Xander and Anya really love each other and they're both committed to making it work it will work. Which, is pretty much the consensus they came to that day they were hiding out in their bathroom away from their relatives. I thought they both got it then, but apparently not. > -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-02-27 12:55:39-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Ken" <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:_ke7a.805$rM4.174286@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com... > > "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com... > > > > > > "Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > > > In article <20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com>, > > fylmfan@aol.comspam > > > says... > > > > > > > >Ken wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >>I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when > he > > had > > > >>serious doubts would have been wronger. > > > > > > > >No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse > > than > > > >anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and > > announced > > > >that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya > > being > > > >humiliated. > > > > > > I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, > > you're not > > > really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, > > having > > > decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as badly > > as it > > > was possible to do -- with that I agree. > > > > See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any > > thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of > > their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, > of > > course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are > > no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to > still > > love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance > as > > anyone of achieving a successful marriage. > > He was from a family where Really Bad Things Happened. The fact that Xander > and Willow were able to stay out repeatedly overnight while in high school > was not a good on it's own. And S4's "Restless" as well as S5's "Hell's > Belles" strongly indicate there were some deeply wrong things going on in > the Harris household. > I get that. Believe me. Some of the most successful marriages in the world are between two people who had lousy parents and rotten childhoods. And some of the worst marriages in the world are from the same. It's a matter of being to able to be objective about your upbringing and learning from others mistakes. It can be done. Xander is not doomed to follow in his parents footsteps, it's a matter of choice. Unless he realizes that, though, he'll be running scared his whole life long. > >-- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-02-27 12:55:39-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Ken" <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:_ke7a.805$rM4.174286@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com... > > "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:cdWcnYKfP-zdhMCjXTWcow@comcast.com... > > > > > > "Lee S. Billings" <stardreamer@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > news:b3irsr$8j3$3@slb9.atl.mindspring.net... > > > In article <20030226043150.23689.00000212@mb-fd.aol.com>, > > fylmfan@aol.comspam > > > says... > > > > > > > >Ken wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >>I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when > he > > had > > > >>serious doubts would have been wronger. > > > > > > > >No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse > > than > > > >anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and > > announced > > > >that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya > > being > > > >humiliated. > > > > > > I think the two of you are more in agreement than you realize. Rose, > > you're not > > > really arguing that he should have married her anyhow, are you? But, > > having > > > decided he couldn't, he handled the *process* of calling it off as badly > > as it > > > was possible to do -- with that I agree. > > > > See I think he should have actually married her. Xander didn't have any > > thoughts that any sane, right thinking, person about to commit the rest of > > their lives to somebody else doesn't have. Except for the demonic parts, > of > > course. Marriage is a challenge, it's scary, it's hard work and there are > > no guarantees for happily ever after. But, he and Anya both claim to > still > > love one another, as long as that part is true they have as good a chance > as > > anyone of achieving a successful marriage. > > He was from a family where Really Bad Things Happened. The fact that Xander > and Willow were able to stay out repeatedly overnight while in high school > was not a good on it's own. And S4's "Restless" as well as S5's "Hell's > Belles" strongly indicate there were some deeply wrong things going on in > the Harris household. > I get that. Believe me. Some of the most successful marriages in the world are between two people who had lousy parents and rotten childhoods. And some of the worst marriages in the world are from the same. It's a matter of being to able to be objective about your upbringing and learning from others mistakes. It can be done. Xander is not doomed to follow in his parents footsteps, it's a matter of choice. Unless he realizes that, though, he'll be running scared his whole life long. > >-- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-02-27 15:08:18-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) > >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com > >Date: 2/26/2003 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <m3k7fmok0d.fsf@panix.com> > > > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > > > >> Ken wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he > >had > >> >serious doubts would have been wronger. > >> > >> No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse > >than > >> anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced > >> that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being > >> humiliated. > > > >Yes, it would have IMO. That was only for a day. Marriage would have > >been forever, or at least many months. > > > > Not necessarily. They could have gotten a divorce the next day. But again, > I'm not saying Xander had to marry Anya. > > >Besides, even though we've all been focussing on how classlessly > >Xander left the wedding, Anya could have done a lot better too. She > >could have spoken up for herself, "Hey, Xander, don't leave me to > >explain it all by myself." > > > > She could have, in that moment that her heart was smashed to pieces (this isn't > pity from me, it's just true), but not doing so was not morally wrong. You're making excuses for her. You could make exactly the same excuse for Xander. > >Failing that, she could have announced "The wedding's off. Xander > >changed his mind." How hard would that have been? If you think about > >it, Xander's the one who comes off looking bad. > > > > He may come off looking bad, but Anya comes off looking like a pathetic reject. > > > >There are two separate things: the anger and rejection and loss she > >felt at not shackling Xander into marriage >as she expected to, > > He was the one who proposed, and when Anya confronted him as to whether he > really wanted to get married ("Don't you want to get married?" she said) Xander > insisted he did. Rather, Anya pressured him to go through with it. "Grow up", and all that. As I said at the time, she behaved like she was trying to keep him from escaping. That, and his spinelessly yielding to it, is how the Hells Bells situation came about. True, he proposed, but that was correctable. > >and the > >moments of embarrassment when she walked down the aisle without > >Xander, her "perfect" day spoiled. > > From your tone I get the impression you think this is kind of > trivial, Not trivial, but normal. Anya had to deal with rejection. Welcome to how the other half lives. > but let > me tell you, I think I would have been literally suicidal in Anya's shoes. Everyone has moments when they wish the earth would swallow them up. But I don't see every guy who asks a woman out and gets publicly shot down getting that kind of sympathy, or taking "revenge" for a year with the approval of all around them including the revengee. > It's not just a matter of her fun party being spoiled, it's a matter of her > groom rejecting her publicly. Which I said. But remember, that is her spending a few minutes in the shoes of Spike or pre-Anya Xander. > Since Xander didn't get up in front of the guests > and say "I'm not marrying Anya today because Dad, you were such a monster of a > father that I'm afraid I will become like you and hurt Anya," it would come off > to the guests as a rejection of her. Public rejection and humiliation is > extremely painful. Not to mention the personal pain Anya experienced at > Xander's breaking off the marriage. The latter was unavoidable, one of life's > hard knocks, but the former was perfectly avoidable. Xander allowing it to > happen was despicably cruel and cowardly. Despicably cowardly. And Anya allowed it to happen that way because, despicably, she preferred to pressure him to marry. -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-02-27 15:08:18-05:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) > >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com > >Date: 2/26/2003 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <m3k7fmok0d.fsf@panix.com> > > > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > > > >> Ken wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when he > >had > >> >serious doubts would have been wronger. > >> > >> No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse > >than > >> anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and announced > >> that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya being > >> humiliated. > > > >Yes, it would have IMO. That was only for a day. Marriage would have > >been forever, or at least many months. > > > > Not necessarily. They could have gotten a divorce the next day. But again, > I'm not saying Xander had to marry Anya. > > >Besides, even though we've all been focussing on how classlessly > >Xander left the wedding, Anya could have done a lot better too. She > >could have spoken up for herself, "Hey, Xander, don't leave me to > >explain it all by myself." > > > > She could have, in that moment that her heart was smashed to pieces (this isn't > pity from me, it's just true), but not doing so was not morally wrong. You're making excuses for her. You could make exactly the same excuse for Xander. > >Failing that, she could have announced "The wedding's off. Xander > >changed his mind." How hard would that have been? If you think about > >it, Xander's the one who comes off looking bad. > > > > He may come off looking bad, but Anya comes off looking like a pathetic reject. > > > >There are two separate things: the anger and rejection and loss she > >felt at not shackling Xander into marriage >as she expected to, > > He was the one who proposed, and when Anya confronted him as to whether he > really wanted to get married ("Don't you want to get married?" she said) Xander > insisted he did. Rather, Anya pressured him to go through with it. "Grow up", and all that. As I said at the time, she behaved like she was trying to keep him from escaping. That, and his spinelessly yielding to it, is how the Hells Bells situation came about. True, he proposed, but that was correctable. > >and the > >moments of embarrassment when she walked down the aisle without > >Xander, her "perfect" day spoiled. > > From your tone I get the impression you think this is kind of > trivial, Not trivial, but normal. Anya had to deal with rejection. Welcome to how the other half lives. > but let > me tell you, I think I would have been literally suicidal in Anya's shoes. Everyone has moments when they wish the earth would swallow them up. But I don't see every guy who asks a woman out and gets publicly shot down getting that kind of sympathy, or taking "revenge" for a year with the approval of all around them including the revengee. > It's not just a matter of her fun party being spoiled, it's a matter of her > groom rejecting her publicly. Which I said. But remember, that is her spending a few minutes in the shoes of Spike or pre-Anya Xander. > Since Xander didn't get up in front of the guests > and say "I'm not marrying Anya today because Dad, you were such a monster of a > father that I'm afraid I will become like you and hurt Anya," it would come off > to the guests as a rejection of her. Public rejection and humiliation is > extremely painful. Not to mention the personal pain Anya experienced at > Xander's breaking off the marriage. The latter was unavoidable, one of life's > hard knocks, but the former was perfectly avoidable. Xander allowing it to > happen was despicably cruel and cowardly. Despicably cowardly. And Anya allowed it to happen that way because, despicably, she preferred to pressure him to marry. -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-02-27 15:45:46+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Ken wrote: > >The flip side is focusing so much on the wedding and treating the marriage >as trivial. No, that's not what I am doing. The issue isn't whether the Big Day goes off without a hitch, but the public rejection and humiliation. It's bad enough to be rejected, it's even worse for that to happen in front of 100 people. > Caring more about what wedding guests think than the person for >whom one allegedly is forsaking all others seems to have priorities out of >whack. Did I suggest that Anya should care more about what the wedding guests think than about Xander? Though if she immediately ceased to care about the gutless wonder who left her to twist in the wind, I wouldn't have blamed her. >IMHO I'd take a bad wedding and a good marriage ten days of week over >a good wedding and a bad marriage-- OK, now I am getting really frustrated. I have said it like five times in this thread. How many more times do I have to repeat it? Xander was not wrong to decide not to get married. He was wrong to run away from the church rather than face the music and help Anya deal with a horrible situation. Rose Wood: Very wrong. And yet understandable. It's not Giles, no, it's not

2003-02-27 15:45:46+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Ken wrote: > >The flip side is focusing so much on the wedding and treating the marriage >as trivial. No, that's not what I am doing. The issue isn't whether the Big Day goes off without a hitch, but the public rejection and humiliation. It's bad enough to be rejected, it's even worse for that to happen in front of 100 people. > Caring more about what wedding guests think than the person for >whom one allegedly is forsaking all others seems to have priorities out of >whack. Did I suggest that Anya should care more about what the wedding guests think than about Xander? Though if she immediately ceased to care about the gutless wonder who left her to twist in the wind, I wouldn't have blamed her. >IMHO I'd take a bad wedding and a good marriage ten days of week over >a good wedding and a bad marriage-- OK, now I am getting really frustrated. I have said it like five times in this thread. How many more times do I have to repeat it? Xander was not wrong to decide not to get married. He was wrong to run away from the church rather than face the music and help Anya deal with a horrible situation. Rose Wood: Very wrong. And yet understandable. It's not Giles, no, it's not

2003-02-27 15:54:42+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: : here's what I liked about Andrew Ep : -- I was actually grateful for the crash course on the season arc. I didn't : realize it until hearing the lecture, but I was a little lost. I tend not to : pay attention to plotty things enough. That tends to happen when you FF every scene not featuring Spike, doesn't it? : -- I enjoyed my mother sayiing "Who made her queen?" and "she's a bossy thing" : about Buffy. She wanted to know if the show ever explained how Slayers were : chosen. I had to tell her no, which was kind of embarrassing, seeing as the : show is over 6 years old. ;) "By magic, and against their own will." What else do you need to know? : -- The way Andrew's story mirror's Spike's. Spike isn't comic relief anymore, : so we have to see the humorous aspect of his story via the Warren arc. This is interesting; I'm not sure if I accept the parallels fully, but I definitely found value and connection (rather than distraction) in Andrew's predicament. : -- The fact that Wood is shaping up to be quite the morally ambiguous : character. I like that. He's not all evil, but he's not a hero either. Not : that he can't be. He could be good or evil at this point. Plus, he's kinda hot. : -- An "I was right" moment. Buffy is still interested in Wood. So there was : reason for that pregnant dramatic pause, and my irritation at her for the : yes-no approach to Spike was warranted. As someone else said, one of the most twisted love triangles imaginable; new boyfriend who actually has (his version of) just cause to kill the old boyfriend. : -- It was kinda fun to see Buffy continue her ambivalence. "Spike, prove you : have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, : you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) Situational. She's got to train her attack puppy, every day. : What I didn't like : -- Xander's de-epiphanying. I thought he had realized how wrongly he had : treated Anya, in general, and now he's said he doesn't think he was wrong to : leave Anya at the altar. He doesn't get a couple of things... first, he was : having doubts months before, and then was the time to rethink the wedding. : Second, he had a right to call off the wedding, but not skulk away like a : coward. He gets that. He didn't mean he handled it well. He merely meant he was right not to marry her. It was always presented as a poor way to do it, for which he has "apologized enough." : -- The goodbye afterglow. It seemed like the show was trying to force an "end" : to the relationship with a bout of bad sex. They both said it was good sex. : -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a fantasy : show. Andrew doesn't seem like someone likely to blubber in pain to you? : -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his chief : charm. Tom Lenk's capable of many more shades. : -- We can feel the heat between Buffy and Spike? How does she relate to him : the last couple eps besides crossing her arms and pursing her lips? I agree : with Andrew. The sexual tension between Wood and Spike is pretty thick. ;) Andrew wishes. : I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again for : the chortles, it warrants at least that. I've watched it twice already, just to catch some of the lines that whiz by. I thought SMG was amazing in this episode, actually capturing much more than "who made her queen" (answer, TPTB) haughtiness to evince compassion, understanding, forgiveness and several other of her many complex qualities. Shawn #=#=#=@@@@@@@@=#=#=#=#=#=#=@@@@@@@=#=#=#=@@=#=@ "Introducing the Amazing Rocketman! You know what the deal is, dude. Excuse me, Napoleon!" --gbv, "Big Cheif Chinese Restaurant" #=#=#=#=@@@@@@=#=#=#=shill@fas.harvard.edu#=@@=# : Rose : It's not Giles

2003-02-27 15:54:42+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: : here's what I liked about Andrew Ep : -- I was actually grateful for the crash course on the season arc. I didn't : realize it until hearing the lecture, but I was a little lost. I tend not to : pay attention to plotty things enough. That tends to happen when you FF every scene not featuring Spike, doesn't it? : -- I enjoyed my mother sayiing "Who made her queen?" and "she's a bossy thing" : about Buffy. She wanted to know if the show ever explained how Slayers were : chosen. I had to tell her no, which was kind of embarrassing, seeing as the : show is over 6 years old. ;) "By magic, and against their own will." What else do you need to know? : -- The way Andrew's story mirror's Spike's. Spike isn't comic relief anymore, : so we have to see the humorous aspect of his story via the Warren arc. This is interesting; I'm not sure if I accept the parallels fully, but I definitely found value and connection (rather than distraction) in Andrew's predicament. : -- The fact that Wood is shaping up to be quite the morally ambiguous : character. I like that. He's not all evil, but he's not a hero either. Not : that he can't be. He could be good or evil at this point. Plus, he's kinda hot. : -- An "I was right" moment. Buffy is still interested in Wood. So there was : reason for that pregnant dramatic pause, and my irritation at her for the : yes-no approach to Spike was warranted. As someone else said, one of the most twisted love triangles imaginable; new boyfriend who actually has (his version of) just cause to kill the old boyfriend. : -- It was kinda fun to see Buffy continue her ambivalence. "Spike, prove you : have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, : you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) Situational. She's got to train her attack puppy, every day. : What I didn't like : -- Xander's de-epiphanying. I thought he had realized how wrongly he had : treated Anya, in general, and now he's said he doesn't think he was wrong to : leave Anya at the altar. He doesn't get a couple of things... first, he was : having doubts months before, and then was the time to rethink the wedding. : Second, he had a right to call off the wedding, but not skulk away like a : coward. He gets that. He didn't mean he handled it well. He merely meant he was right not to marry her. It was always presented as a poor way to do it, for which he has "apologized enough." : -- The goodbye afterglow. It seemed like the show was trying to force an "end" : to the relationship with a bout of bad sex. They both said it was good sex. : -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a fantasy : show. Andrew doesn't seem like someone likely to blubber in pain to you? : -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his chief : charm. Tom Lenk's capable of many more shades. : -- We can feel the heat between Buffy and Spike? How does she relate to him : the last couple eps besides crossing her arms and pursing her lips? I agree : with Andrew. The sexual tension between Wood and Spike is pretty thick. ;) Andrew wishes. : I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again for : the chortles, it warrants at least that. I've watched it twice already, just to catch some of the lines that whiz by. I thought SMG was amazing in this episode, actually capturing much more than "who made her queen" (answer, TPTB) haughtiness to evince compassion, understanding, forgiveness and several other of her many complex qualities. Shawn #=#=#=@@@@@@@@=#=#=#=#=#=#=@@@@@@@=#=#=#=@@=#=@ "Introducing the Amazing Rocketman! You know what the deal is, dude. Excuse me, Napoleon!" --gbv, "Big Cheif Chinese Restaurant" #=#=#=#=@@@@@@=#=#=#=shill@fas.harvard.edu#=@@=# : Rose : It's not Giles

2003-02-27 16:00:04+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Hawkboy <dobby@msn.com> wrote: :> Rose :> It's not Giles : You do know Spike is not a real person right? He's an actor who wears and : does what he's told. Hawk, she actually DOESN'T know this, so let's try not to destroy her fragile world, okay? Shawn

2003-02-27 16:00:04+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Hawkboy <dobby@msn.com> wrote: :> Rose :> It's not Giles : You do know Spike is not a real person right? He's an actor who wears and : does what he's told. Hawk, she actually DOESN'T know this, so let's try not to destroy her fragile world, okay? Shawn

2003-02-27 16:02:12+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Tom Breton <tehom@removepannospamix.com> wrote: : fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: :> Look, one faked tirade in a dweeb's home documentary doesn't make Spike an :> actor. Has he ever attended acting classes? Done regional theater? Been so :> much as an extra? No. : Ah, but the prophecy in "Restless" was that he becomes an actor. Or : maybe it meant a model. After he becomes a watcher, of course. Randy can do whatever he wants!! Wow, flashing back to that Loan Shark now. That was perhaps the most comic book moment in all of Buffy. Very Savage Dragon. Shawn

2003-02-27 16:02:12+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Tom Breton <tehom@removepannospamix.com> wrote: : fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: :> Look, one faked tirade in a dweeb's home documentary doesn't make Spike an :> actor. Has he ever attended acting classes? Done regional theater? Been so :> much as an extra? No. : Ah, but the prophecy in "Restless" was that he becomes an actor. Or : maybe it meant a model. After he becomes a watcher, of course. Randy can do whatever he wants!! Wow, flashing back to that Loan Shark now. That was perhaps the most comic book moment in all of Buffy. Very Savage Dragon. Shawn

2003-02-27 16:04:42+00:00 - Re: Will this change Andrew? (was Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


himiko <himiko@animail.net> wrote: : bergeg@parl.gc.ca (NightBaron) wrote in message news:<24ab6293.0302260548.4064ed48@posting.google.com>... :> fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... :> > here's what I liked about Andrew Ep :> :> aka 'StoryTeller' spoilers :> :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his :> > chief charm. :> :> Change usually doesn't happen over night. : Better not happen at all. Sure, this was one aspect of Andrew's past : that he really had to deal with, but most of his fantasies are benign, : charmingly innocent, wildly creative, and very, very funny. That we : are as gods scene had me howling. I don't think anybody with that much Star Wars paraphenelia is capable of living for too long in the real world. But, he may have stopped filming everything at least. I thought Buffy's point about "I do things too important to be seen" was interesting. Shawn

2003-02-27 16:04:42+00:00 - Re: Will this change Andrew? (was Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


himiko <himiko@animail.net> wrote: : bergeg@parl.gc.ca (NightBaron) wrote in message news:<24ab6293.0302260548.4064ed48@posting.google.com>... :> fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... :> > here's what I liked about Andrew Ep :> :> aka 'StoryTeller' spoilers :> :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > :> > -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his :> > chief charm. :> :> Change usually doesn't happen over night. : Better not happen at all. Sure, this was one aspect of Andrew's past : that he really had to deal with, but most of his fantasies are benign, : charmingly innocent, wildly creative, and very, very funny. That we : are as gods scene had me howling. I don't think anybody with that much Star Wars paraphenelia is capable of living for too long in the real world. But, he may have stopped filming everything at least. I thought Buffy's point about "I do things too important to be seen" was interesting. Shawn

2003-02-27 16:05:34+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: :>fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message :>news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... :>> I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again :>for :>> the chortles, it warrants at least that. :> :>Certainly, Rose, if it was the "mediumest episode everrrr!" then it :>would have garnered a 2.5 rating. Or are we dealing with a weighted :>system here? :> :> : I don't consider 0 to be a score because when George started this poll, the : lowest score was 1. So my true middle or "par" score is 3. : I just chose the header for the sake of humor rather than a literal expression : of the score. :) I giggled when I read it. I give your title a 4.7. Shawn

2003-02-27 16:05:34+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: :>fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message :>news:<20030226015001.02782.00000146@mb-ce.aol.com>... :>> I give it a 3.5. When I rewind and just HAVE to watch a few scenes again :>for :>> the chortles, it warrants at least that. :> :>Certainly, Rose, if it was the "mediumest episode everrrr!" then it :>would have garnered a 2.5 rating. Or are we dealing with a weighted :>system here? :> :> : I don't consider 0 to be a score because when George started this poll, the : lowest score was 1. So my true middle or "par" score is 3. : I just chose the header for the sake of humor rather than a literal expression : of the score. :) I giggled when I read it. I give your title a 4.7. Shawn

2003-02-27 16:28:49+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: Shawn Hill shill@fas.harvard.edu >Date: 2/27/2003 7:54 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <b3lcc2$t1m$1@news.fas.harvard.edu> > >Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: >: here's what I liked about Andrew Ep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >: -- I was actually grateful for the crash course on the season arc. I >didn't >: realize it until hearing the lecture, but I was a little lost. I tend not >to >: pay attention to plotty things enough. > >That tends to happen when you FF every scene not featuring Spike, >doesn't it? > Eh, I've always been like that. I'm kinda like Jerry Seinfeld when I go to movies. "Why'd they kill that guy? I thought he was with them. Oh, he was only pretending to be with them. Good thing they killed him." My mind tends to wander during plot exposition. >: -- I enjoyed my mother sayiing "Who made her queen?" and "she's a bossy >thing" >: about Buffy. She wanted to know if the show ever explained how Slayers >were >: chosen. I had to tell her no, which was kind of embarrassing, seeing as >the >: show is over 6 years old. ;) > >"By magic, and against their own will." What else do you need to know? > Is it by magic? I told her they were chosen by the cosmos. > >: -- It was kinda fun to see Buffy continue her ambivalence. "Spike, prove >you >: have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, >: you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) > >Situational. She's got to train her attack puppy, every day. > Oh, that's nice. > >They both said it was good sex. Clearly lying. "Gee that was nice." "Yeah it was nice. Fine and nice and good." "Yes, whoopie." > >: -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a >fantasy >: show. > >Andrew doesn't seem like someone likely to blubber in pain to you? > He does, but it was far fetched that tears of remorse would close the portal. This show is starting to get kinda fairy talish, what with tears of remorse and the kiss of true love breaking evil spells. >: -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his >chief >: charm. > >Tom Lenk's capable of many more shades. > Yeah, but I liked Fantasy Andrew. Rose Wood: Very wrong. And yet understandable. It's not Giles, no, it's not

2003-02-27 16:28:49+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: Shawn Hill shill@fas.harvard.edu >Date: 2/27/2003 7:54 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <b3lcc2$t1m$1@news.fas.harvard.edu> > >Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: >: here's what I liked about Andrew Ep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >: -- I was actually grateful for the crash course on the season arc. I >didn't >: realize it until hearing the lecture, but I was a little lost. I tend not >to >: pay attention to plotty things enough. > >That tends to happen when you FF every scene not featuring Spike, >doesn't it? > Eh, I've always been like that. I'm kinda like Jerry Seinfeld when I go to movies. "Why'd they kill that guy? I thought he was with them. Oh, he was only pretending to be with them. Good thing they killed him." My mind tends to wander during plot exposition. >: -- I enjoyed my mother sayiing "Who made her queen?" and "she's a bossy >thing" >: about Buffy. She wanted to know if the show ever explained how Slayers >were >: chosen. I had to tell her no, which was kind of embarrassing, seeing as >the >: show is over 6 years old. ;) > >"By magic, and against their own will." What else do you need to know? > Is it by magic? I told her they were chosen by the cosmos. > >: -- It was kinda fun to see Buffy continue her ambivalence. "Spike, prove >you >: have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, >: you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) > >Situational. She's got to train her attack puppy, every day. > Oh, that's nice. > >They both said it was good sex. Clearly lying. "Gee that was nice." "Yeah it was nice. Fine and nice and good." "Yes, whoopie." > >: -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a >fantasy >: show. > >Andrew doesn't seem like someone likely to blubber in pain to you? > He does, but it was far fetched that tears of remorse would close the portal. This show is starting to get kinda fairy talish, what with tears of remorse and the kiss of true love breaking evil spells. >: -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his >chief >: charm. > >Tom Lenk's capable of many more shades. > Yeah, but I liked Fantasy Andrew. Rose Wood: Very wrong. And yet understandable. It's not Giles, no, it's not

2003-02-27 17:40:08+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: :>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) :>From: Shawn Hill shill@fas.harvard.edu :>Date: 2/27/2003 7:54 AM Pacific Standard Time :>Message-id: <b3lcc2$t1m$1@news.fas.harvard.edu> :> :>Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: :>: here's what I liked about Andrew Ep :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :>: show is over 6 years old. ;) :> :>"By magic, and against their own will." What else do you need to know? :> : Is it by magic? I told her they were chosen by the cosmos. The originary spell (dramatized finally in GID) seems to be still active. :>: have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, :>: you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) :> :>Situational. She's got to train her attack puppy, every day. : Oh, that's nice. I just can't take Spike as seriously as you, ever. To me, he'll always be a supporting player. The show hinges on Buffy, not him. :>They both said it was good sex. : Clearly lying. "Gee that was nice." "Yeah it was nice. Fine and nice and : good." "Yes, whoopie." Nope, not clear at all then. To me Xander seemed genuinely afterglowing, and Anya, as always, was proud of her performance. It's just that the spark finally went out. :>Andrew doesn't seem like someone likely to blubber in pain to you? : He does, but it was far fetched that tears of remorse would close the portal. : This show is starting to get kinda fairy talish, what with tears of remorse and : the kiss of true love breaking evil spells. Starting to get? Kinda? With magic keys and monks and ogres and troll gods and Gingerbread and dopplegangers and enchantments and children's crusades and curses .... S5 was the first full-out fairtyale season, but it's often been part and parcel of the show. Shawn

2003-02-27 17:40:08+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: :>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) :>From: Shawn Hill shill@fas.harvard.edu :>Date: 2/27/2003 7:54 AM Pacific Standard Time :>Message-id: <b3lcc2$t1m$1@news.fas.harvard.edu> :> :>Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: :>: here's what I liked about Andrew Ep :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :> :>: show is over 6 years old. ;) :> :>"By magic, and against their own will." What else do you need to know? :> : Is it by magic? I told her they were chosen by the cosmos. The originary spell (dramatized finally in GID) seems to be still active. :>: have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, :>: you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) :> :>Situational. She's got to train her attack puppy, every day. : Oh, that's nice. I just can't take Spike as seriously as you, ever. To me, he'll always be a supporting player. The show hinges on Buffy, not him. :>They both said it was good sex. : Clearly lying. "Gee that was nice." "Yeah it was nice. Fine and nice and : good." "Yes, whoopie." Nope, not clear at all then. To me Xander seemed genuinely afterglowing, and Anya, as always, was proud of her performance. It's just that the spark finally went out. :>Andrew doesn't seem like someone likely to blubber in pain to you? : He does, but it was far fetched that tears of remorse would close the portal. : This show is starting to get kinda fairy talish, what with tears of remorse and : the kiss of true love breaking evil spells. Starting to get? Kinda? With magic keys and monks and ogres and troll gods and Gingerbread and dopplegangers and enchantments and children's crusades and curses .... S5 was the first full-out fairtyale season, but it's often been part and parcel of the show. Shawn

2003-02-28 00:52:57+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com >Date: 2/27/2003 12:08 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <m3ptpd7ah9.fsf@panix.com> > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >> >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >> >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com >> >Date: 2/26/2003 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time >> >Message-id: <m3k7fmok0d.fsf@panix.com> >> > >> >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: >> > >> >> Ken wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when >he >> >had >> >> >serious doubts would have been wronger. >> >> >> >> No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse >> >than >> >> anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and >announced >> >> that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya >being >> >> humiliated. >> > >> >Yes, it would have IMO. That was only for a day. Marriage would have >> >been forever, or at least many months. >> > >> >> Not necessarily. They could have gotten a divorce the next day. But >again, >> I'm not saying Xander had to marry Anya. >> >> >Besides, even though we've all been focussing on how classlessly >> >Xander left the wedding, Anya could have done a lot better too. She >> >could have spoken up for herself, "Hey, Xander, don't leave me to >> >explain it all by myself." >> > >> >> She could have, in that moment that her heart was smashed to pieces (this >isn't >> pity from me, it's just true), but not doing so was not morally wrong. > >You're making excuses for her. No I'm really not. Failing to say "Stay Xander" is not a despicable thing to do. >You could make exactly the same excuse >for Xander. > There is no excuse for what he did, imo. Except insanity. >> >Failing that, she could have announced "The wedding's off. Xander >> >changed his mind." How hard would that have been? If you think about >> >it, Xander's the one who comes off looking bad. >> > >> >> He may come off looking bad, but Anya comes off looking like a pathetic >reject. >> >> >> >There are two separate things: the anger and rejection and loss she >> >felt at not shackling Xander into marriage >as she expected to, >> >> He was the one who proposed, and when Anya confronted him as to whether he >> really wanted to get married ("Don't you want to get married?" she said) >Xander >> insisted he did. > >Rather, Anya pressured him to go through with it. "Grow up", and all >that. She said "grow up" AFTER she asked him if he wanted to get married, and he said yes, and then gave her a cock and bull story about how he was dragging his feet because he wanted it to be perfect for her. > As I said at the time, she behaved like she was trying to keep >him from escaping. Well I don't agree, I think she wanted him to shit or get off the pot, but oh well. > >Not trivial, but normal. Anya had to deal with rejection. Welcome to >how the other half lives. It's not normal to deal with rejection in the presence of everyone you know. > >> but let >> me tell you, I think I would have been literally suicidal in Anya's shoes. > >Everyone has moments when they wish the earth would swallow them up. >But I don't see every guy who asks a woman out and gets publicly shot >down getting that kind of sympathy, Asking a woman out and getting shot down (or asking a man out and getting shot down, as has happened to me and other women), or calling a guy several days after your first date and having him say the equivalent of "Oh...hi...look I'm really busy right now polishing my goldfish, could you call back never" is not anywhere near the same league as being left at the altar. Every step one takes in trying to get a relationship started has a risk inherent in it, but being publicly humiliated shouldn't be one of those risks. If a guy asks a girl out and she says she'll think about it, then waits until the school assembly, asks for a chance to speak and then says into the microphone "John, I've thought it over and no, I won't go out with you," that would be more comparable to what happened with Xander and Anya at the wedding. >or taking "revenge" for a year >with the approval of all around them including the revengee. > Well, few people here approved of that. No matter how big an a-hole Xander was, it didn't warrant murder/maiming of him or a bunch of frat guys. What it warranted was breaking up with him for good, which is where she should have left it. > >> It's not just a matter of her fun party being spoiled, it's a matter of her >> groom rejecting her publicly. > >Which I said. But remember, that is her spending a few minutes in the >shoes of Spike or pre-Anya Xander. > Why would I want her to do that? Just because Cordelia publicly humiliated Xander and Buffy treated Spike like crap doesn't lessen the wrongness of what Xander did to Anya. The only thing I'd say is that an unrepentant ex demon like Anya didn't deserve sympathy, but since Xander chose to overlook that, he had an obligation not to be an asshole to her, just as Cordy had an obligation not to be an asshole to him. > >> Since Xander didn't get up in front of the guests >> and say "I'm not marrying Anya today because Dad, you were such a monster >of a >> father that I'm afraid I will become like you and hurt Anya," it would come >off >> to the guests as a rejection of her. Public rejection and humiliation is >> extremely painful. Not to mention the personal pain Anya experienced at >> Xander's breaking off the marriage. The latter was unavoidable, one of >life's >> hard knocks, but the former was perfectly avoidable. Xander allowing it to >> happen was despicably cruel and cowardly. > >Despicably cowardly. And Anya allowed it to happen that way because, >despicably, she preferred to pressure him to marry. > She thought, wrongly, that he wanted to get married. She was dumb. I don't think she was despicable in that area, although she was plenty despicable in other ways, including her attempt to kill Xander. Rose Wood: Very wrong. And yet understandable. It's not Giles, no, it's not

2003-02-28 00:52:57+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com >Date: 2/27/2003 12:08 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <m3ptpd7ah9.fsf@panix.com> > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >> >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) >> >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com >> >Date: 2/26/2003 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time >> >Message-id: <m3k7fmok0d.fsf@panix.com> >> > >> >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: >> > >> >> Ken wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >I agree leaving her at the altar was wrong. However marrying her when >he >> >had >> >> >serious doubts would have been wronger. >> >> >> >> No, it wouldn't, imo. Leaving her there alone like a coward was worse >> >than >> >> anything else he could have done. He should faced the guests and >announced >> >> that the wedding was off, and made up some lie in order to avoid Anya >being >> >> humiliated. >> > >> >Yes, it would have IMO. That was only for a day. Marriage would have >> >been forever, or at least many months. >> > >> >> Not necessarily. They could have gotten a divorce the next day. But >again, >> I'm not saying Xander had to marry Anya. >> >> >Besides, even though we've all been focussing on how classlessly >> >Xander left the wedding, Anya could have done a lot better too. She >> >could have spoken up for herself, "Hey, Xander, don't leave me to >> >explain it all by myself." >> > >> >> She could have, in that moment that her heart was smashed to pieces (this >isn't >> pity from me, it's just true), but not doing so was not morally wrong. > >You're making excuses for her. No I'm really not. Failing to say "Stay Xander" is not a despicable thing to do. >You could make exactly the same excuse >for Xander. > There is no excuse for what he did, imo. Except insanity. >> >Failing that, she could have announced "The wedding's off. Xander >> >changed his mind." How hard would that have been? If you think about >> >it, Xander's the one who comes off looking bad. >> > >> >> He may come off looking bad, but Anya comes off looking like a pathetic >reject. >> >> >> >There are two separate things: the anger and rejection and loss she >> >felt at not shackling Xander into marriage >as she expected to, >> >> He was the one who proposed, and when Anya confronted him as to whether he >> really wanted to get married ("Don't you want to get married?" she said) >Xander >> insisted he did. > >Rather, Anya pressured him to go through with it. "Grow up", and all >that. She said "grow up" AFTER she asked him if he wanted to get married, and he said yes, and then gave her a cock and bull story about how he was dragging his feet because he wanted it to be perfect for her. > As I said at the time, she behaved like she was trying to keep >him from escaping. Well I don't agree, I think she wanted him to shit or get off the pot, but oh well. > >Not trivial, but normal. Anya had to deal with rejection. Welcome to >how the other half lives. It's not normal to deal with rejection in the presence of everyone you know. > >> but let >> me tell you, I think I would have been literally suicidal in Anya's shoes. > >Everyone has moments when they wish the earth would swallow them up. >But I don't see every guy who asks a woman out and gets publicly shot >down getting that kind of sympathy, Asking a woman out and getting shot down (or asking a man out and getting shot down, as has happened to me and other women), or calling a guy several days after your first date and having him say the equivalent of "Oh...hi...look I'm really busy right now polishing my goldfish, could you call back never" is not anywhere near the same league as being left at the altar. Every step one takes in trying to get a relationship started has a risk inherent in it, but being publicly humiliated shouldn't be one of those risks. If a guy asks a girl out and she says she'll think about it, then waits until the school assembly, asks for a chance to speak and then says into the microphone "John, I've thought it over and no, I won't go out with you," that would be more comparable to what happened with Xander and Anya at the wedding. >or taking "revenge" for a year >with the approval of all around them including the revengee. > Well, few people here approved of that. No matter how big an a-hole Xander was, it didn't warrant murder/maiming of him or a bunch of frat guys. What it warranted was breaking up with him for good, which is where she should have left it. > >> It's not just a matter of her fun party being spoiled, it's a matter of her >> groom rejecting her publicly. > >Which I said. But remember, that is her spending a few minutes in the >shoes of Spike or pre-Anya Xander. > Why would I want her to do that? Just because Cordelia publicly humiliated Xander and Buffy treated Spike like crap doesn't lessen the wrongness of what Xander did to Anya. The only thing I'd say is that an unrepentant ex demon like Anya didn't deserve sympathy, but since Xander chose to overlook that, he had an obligation not to be an asshole to her, just as Cordy had an obligation not to be an asshole to him. > >> Since Xander didn't get up in front of the guests >> and say "I'm not marrying Anya today because Dad, you were such a monster >of a >> father that I'm afraid I will become like you and hurt Anya," it would come >off >> to the guests as a rejection of her. Public rejection and humiliation is >> extremely painful. Not to mention the personal pain Anya experienced at >> Xander's breaking off the marriage. The latter was unavoidable, one of >life's >> hard knocks, but the former was perfectly avoidable. Xander allowing it to >> happen was despicably cruel and cowardly. > >Despicably cowardly. And Anya allowed it to happen that way because, >despicably, she preferred to pressure him to marry. > She thought, wrongly, that he wanted to get married. She was dumb. I don't think she was despicable in that area, although she was plenty despicable in other ways, including her attempt to kill Xander. Rose Wood: Very wrong. And yet understandable. It's not Giles, no, it's not

2003-02-28 02:24:22+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (schlitzdrinker@aol.comekingdom)


In article <k4k7a.905$rM4.239241@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>, "Ken" <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> writes: >Lack of communication has been mentioned as the Ultimate Big Bad of the >entire series (by a certain citizen of the Windy City, who shall remain >nameless). > Are you quoting Bob Greene again? Your pal, Barney Barney himself, who is a textbook basher, as opposed to critic, gets a five on the killjoy scale. I assure you that in the real world his comments would be the equivalent of wastepaper. - Portia

2003-02-28 02:24:22+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (schlitzdrinker@aol.comekingdom)


In article <k4k7a.905$rM4.239241@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>, "Ken" <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> writes: >Lack of communication has been mentioned as the Ultimate Big Bad of the >entire series (by a certain citizen of the Windy City, who shall remain >nameless). > Are you quoting Bob Greene again? Your pal, Barney Barney himself, who is a textbook basher, as opposed to critic, gets a five on the killjoy scale. I assure you that in the real world his comments would be the equivalent of wastepaper. - Portia

2003-02-28 09:16:50+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Barney" <schlitzdrinker@aol.comekingdom> wrote in message news:20030227212422.29520.00000016@mb-ml.aol.com... > In article <k4k7a.905$rM4.239241@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>, "Ken" > <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> writes: > > >Lack of communication has been mentioned as the Ultimate Big Bad of the > >entire series (by a certain citizen of the Windy City, who shall remain > >nameless). > > > > Are you quoting Bob Greene again? > > Your pal, > Barney > > Barney himself, who is a textbook basher, as opposed to critic, gets a five on > the killjoy scale. I assure you that in the real world his comments would be > the equivalent of wastepaper. > - Portia > I never quoted him. He irritated me ever since the whole "Baby Richard" case in the early 90s (e.g., woman lied to guy about being preggers, forged signature on forms and put baby up for adoption, he found out weeks after birth and tried to get custody--only to have the adoptive parents fight him in the courts for years and then claim it was cruel because 'baby Richard' had only known them as parents--yet Bob made the guy out as a villain for daring to wanting custody of his son; the whole thing blew up into national event when the Illinois Supreme Court decided that the biological dad was in the right). Beyond that issue was Bob's tendency to drag out columns for days and weeks at a time. Where most columnists in the Trib and the Sun-Times would have different topics every day or maybe a couple of topics on a major subject (e.g., OJ trial, Baby Richard, Clinton Impeachment), Bob would take have seemingly endless columns on minor stories. It's one thing to humanize a story of some jackass preying on kids, but beyond a certain point, it gets creepy. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-02-28 09:16:50+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Ken <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net>)


"Barney" <schlitzdrinker@aol.comekingdom> wrote in message news:20030227212422.29520.00000016@mb-ml.aol.com... > In article <k4k7a.905$rM4.239241@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>, "Ken" > <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> writes: > > >Lack of communication has been mentioned as the Ultimate Big Bad of the > >entire series (by a certain citizen of the Windy City, who shall remain > >nameless). > > > > Are you quoting Bob Greene again? > > Your pal, > Barney > > Barney himself, who is a textbook basher, as opposed to critic, gets a five on > the killjoy scale. I assure you that in the real world his comments would be > the equivalent of wastepaper. > - Portia > I never quoted him. He irritated me ever since the whole "Baby Richard" case in the early 90s (e.g., woman lied to guy about being preggers, forged signature on forms and put baby up for adoption, he found out weeks after birth and tried to get custody--only to have the adoptive parents fight him in the courts for years and then claim it was cruel because 'baby Richard' had only known them as parents--yet Bob made the guy out as a villain for daring to wanting custody of his son; the whole thing blew up into national event when the Illinois Supreme Court decided that the biological dad was in the right). Beyond that issue was Bob's tendency to drag out columns for days and weeks at a time. Where most columnists in the Trib and the Sun-Times would have different topics every day or maybe a couple of topics on a major subject (e.g., OJ trial, Baby Richard, Clinton Impeachment), Bob would take have seemingly endless columns on minor stories. It's one thing to humanize a story of some jackass preying on kids, but beyond a certain point, it gets creepy. -- Ken from Chicago

2003-03-01 01:34:30+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (schlitzdrinker@aol.comekingdom)


In article <6OF7a.2143$rM4.419421@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>, "Ken" <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> writes: >> >Lack of communication has been mentioned as the Ultimate Big Bad of the >> >entire series (by a certain citizen of the Windy City, who shall remain >> >nameless). >> > >> >> Are you quoting Bob Greene again? >> > >I never quoted him. I know. I remember you dissing him a couple months ago. :) > He irritated me ever since the whole "Baby Richard" case >in the early 90s (e.g., woman lied to guy about being preggers, forged >signature on forms and put baby up for adoption, he found out weeks after >birth and tried to get custody--only to have the adoptive parents fight him >in the courts for years and then claim it was cruel because 'baby Richard' >had only known them as parents--yet Bob made the guy out as a villain for >daring to wanting custody of his son; the whole thing blew up into national >event when the Illinois Supreme Court decided that the biological dad was in >the right). > I've actually never heard about this - although I have heard about similar cases. Talk about a tough decision; but I think the Court actually made the right one here. >Beyond that issue was Bob's tendency to drag out columns for days and weeks >at a time. Where most columnists in the Trib and the Sun-Times would have >different topics every day or maybe a couple of topics on a major subject >(e.g., OJ trial, Baby Richard, Clinton Impeachment), Bob would take have >seemingly endless columns on minor stories. It's one thing to humanize a >story of some jackass preying on kids, but beyond a certain point, it gets >creepy. Out here there was a guy named Jack Smith (even his name is unbelievably dull) who wrote a daily column for the LA Times since around 1912. I never looked at his stuff (he may have retired before I started reading newspapers), but both my father *and* my grandfather complained about how boring his columns had been ever since they could remember. At a certain point a journalist becomes an "institution" and it doesn't matter how awful his stuff is, or even if it was ever any good. Your pal, Barney Barney himself, who is a textbook basher, as opposed to critic, gets a five on the killjoy scale. I assure you that in the real world his comments would be the equivalent of wastepaper. - Portia

2003-03-01 01:34:30+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (schlitzdrinker@aol.comekingdom)


In article <6OF7a.2143$rM4.419421@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>, "Ken" <kwicker_erase_this_part@ameritech.net> writes: >> >Lack of communication has been mentioned as the Ultimate Big Bad of the >> >entire series (by a certain citizen of the Windy City, who shall remain >> >nameless). >> > >> >> Are you quoting Bob Greene again? >> > >I never quoted him. I know. I remember you dissing him a couple months ago. :) > He irritated me ever since the whole "Baby Richard" case >in the early 90s (e.g., woman lied to guy about being preggers, forged >signature on forms and put baby up for adoption, he found out weeks after >birth and tried to get custody--only to have the adoptive parents fight him >in the courts for years and then claim it was cruel because 'baby Richard' >had only known them as parents--yet Bob made the guy out as a villain for >daring to wanting custody of his son; the whole thing blew up into national >event when the Illinois Supreme Court decided that the biological dad was in >the right). > I've actually never heard about this - although I have heard about similar cases. Talk about a tough decision; but I think the Court actually made the right one here. >Beyond that issue was Bob's tendency to drag out columns for days and weeks >at a time. Where most columnists in the Trib and the Sun-Times would have >different topics every day or maybe a couple of topics on a major subject >(e.g., OJ trial, Baby Richard, Clinton Impeachment), Bob would take have >seemingly endless columns on minor stories. It's one thing to humanize a >story of some jackass preying on kids, but beyond a certain point, it gets >creepy. Out here there was a guy named Jack Smith (even his name is unbelievably dull) who wrote a daily column for the LA Times since around 1912. I never looked at his stuff (he may have retired before I started reading newspapers), but both my father *and* my grandfather complained about how boring his columns had been ever since they could remember. At a certain point a journalist becomes an "institution" and it doesn't matter how awful his stuff is, or even if it was ever any good. Your pal, Barney Barney himself, who is a textbook basher, as opposed to critic, gets a five on the killjoy scale. I assure you that in the real world his comments would be the equivalent of wastepaper. - Portia

2003-03-02 21:13:16+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Hawkboy <dobby@msn.com>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030227112849.23170.00000156@mb-mk.aol.com... > > He does, but it was far fetched that tears of remorse would close the portal. > This show is starting to get kinda fairy talish, what with tears of remorse and > the kiss of true love breaking evil spells. > > Rose Yeah I agree, someone crying is hard to believe, yet I'm glad you have no problem accepting that he was talking to an invisible representation of all that is evil. It's hard when they mix something fantastical like crying and remorse in a show so grounded in the real life situations of fighting demons and vampires. But seriously, I couldn't agree more, using tears to close an evil portal is stupid. I know when I'm closing evil portals crying NEVER works. The writers have really started to slip. Hawkboy Rose: clearly insane

2003-03-02 21:13:16+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (Hawkboy <dobby@msn.com>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030227112849.23170.00000156@mb-mk.aol.com... > > He does, but it was far fetched that tears of remorse would close the portal. > This show is starting to get kinda fairy talish, what with tears of remorse and > the kiss of true love breaking evil spells. > > Rose Yeah I agree, someone crying is hard to believe, yet I'm glad you have no problem accepting that he was talking to an invisible representation of all that is evil. It's hard when they mix something fantastical like crying and remorse in a show so grounded in the real life situations of fighting demons and vampires. But seriously, I couldn't agree more, using tears to close an evil portal is stupid. I know when I'm closing evil portals crying NEVER works. The writers have really started to slip. Hawkboy Rose: clearly insane

2003-03-02 21:38:19+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


> >Hawkboy >Rose: clearly insane Hawkboy Rose is not insane at all. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-02 21:38:19+00:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


> >Hawkboy >Rose: clearly insane Hawkboy Rose is not insane at all. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-03 16:41:17-08:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (oocb@noos.fr)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030227112849.23170.00000156@mb-mk.aol.com>... > >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) > >From: Shawn Hill shill@fas.harvard.edu > >Date: 2/27/2003 7:54 AM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <b3lcc2$t1m$1@news.fas.harvard.edu> > > > >Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: > >: here's what I liked about Andrew Ep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >: -- I was actually grateful for the crash course on the season arc. I > didn't > >: realize it until hearing the lecture, but I was a little lost. I tend not > to > >: pay attention to plotty things enough. > > > >That tends to happen when you FF every scene not featuring Spike, > >doesn't it? > > > > Eh, I've always been like that. I'm kinda like Jerry Seinfeld when I go to > movies. "Why'd they kill that guy? I thought he was with them. Oh, he was > only pretending to be with them. Good thing they killed him." My mind tends > to wander during plot exposition. > > >: -- I enjoyed my mother sayiing "Who made her queen?" and "she's a bossy > thing" > >: about Buffy. She wanted to know if the show ever explained how Slayers > were > >: chosen. I had to tell her no, which was kind of embarrassing, seeing as > the > >: show is over 6 years old. ;) > > > >"By magic, and against their own will." What else do you need to know? > > > > Is it by magic? I told her they were chosen by the cosmos. > Bah don't worry, Rose. It's quiet the same : "everything's connected " OCB > >: -- It was kinda fun to see Buffy continue her ambivalence. "Spike, prove > you > >: have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, > >: you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) > > > >Situational. She's got to train her attack puppy, every day. > > > > Oh, that's nice. > > > > >They both said it was good sex. > > Clearly lying. "Gee that was nice." "Yeah it was nice. Fine and nice and > good." "Yes, whoopie." > > > > >: -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a > fantasy > >: show. > > > >Andrew doesn't seem like someone likely to blubber in pain to you? > > > > He does, but it was far fetched that tears of remorse would close the portal. > This show is starting to get kinda fairy talish, what with tears of remorse and > the kiss of true love breaking evil spells. > > >: -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his > chief > >: charm. > > > >Tom Lenk's capable of many more shades. > > > > Yeah, but I liked Fantasy Andrew. > > > > Rose > Wood: Very wrong. And yet understandable. > It's not Giles, no, it's not

2003-03-03 16:41:17-08:00 - Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) - (oocb@noos.fr)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030227112849.23170.00000156@mb-mk.aol.com>... > >Subject: Re: Mediumest Episode Everrrr! (spoilers) > >From: Shawn Hill shill@fas.harvard.edu > >Date: 2/27/2003 7:54 AM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <b3lcc2$t1m$1@news.fas.harvard.edu> > > > >Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote: > >: here's what I liked about Andrew Ep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >: -- I was actually grateful for the crash course on the season arc. I > didn't > >: realize it until hearing the lecture, but I was a little lost. I tend not > to > >: pay attention to plotty things enough. > > > >That tends to happen when you FF every scene not featuring Spike, > >doesn't it? > > > > Eh, I've always been like that. I'm kinda like Jerry Seinfeld when I go to > movies. "Why'd they kill that guy? I thought he was with them. Oh, he was > only pretending to be with them. Good thing they killed him." My mind tends > to wander during plot exposition. > > >: -- I enjoyed my mother sayiing "Who made her queen?" and "she's a bossy > thing" > >: about Buffy. She wanted to know if the show ever explained how Slayers > were > >: chosen. I had to tell her no, which was kind of embarrassing, seeing as > the > >: show is over 6 years old. ;) > > > >"By magic, and against their own will." What else do you need to know? > > > > Is it by magic? I told her they were chosen by the cosmos. > Bah don't worry, Rose. It's quiet the same : "everything's connected " OCB > >: -- It was kinda fun to see Buffy continue her ambivalence. "Spike, prove > you > >: have a soul." "I want Killer Spike. Stop holding back." Now it's "Spike, > >: you're fighting too rough! Hold back!" :) > > > >Situational. She's got to train her attack puppy, every day. > > > > Oh, that's nice. > > > > >They both said it was good sex. > > Clearly lying. "Gee that was nice." "Yeah it was nice. Fine and nice and > good." "Yes, whoopie." > > > > >: -- Andrew's teary scene at the end. Corny. And far fetched even for a > fantasy > >: show. > > > >Andrew doesn't seem like someone likely to blubber in pain to you? > > > > He does, but it was far fetched that tears of remorse would close the portal. > This show is starting to get kinda fairy talish, what with tears of remorse and > the kiss of true love breaking evil spells. > > >: -- It looks like Andrew won't be "fantasy guy" anymore. And that was his > chief > >: charm. > > > >Tom Lenk's capable of many more shades. > > > > Yeah, but I liked Fantasy Andrew. > > > > Rose > Wood: Very wrong. And yet understandable. > It's not Giles, no, it's not