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2003-03-29 18:43:05-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 29 Mar 2003 23:34:22 GMT, indyana68@aol.comREMOVE (Indy) wrote: >>-- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >> >Well who would be stronger than him? Willow easily. She's been stronger even then Buffy since season 5 though they've come up with ever more contrived ways of keeping her powers in the background. Pretty much everyone else is stronger then Spike if the fight happens to come during the hours between sunrise and sunset. Unless the First is nice enough to hold the final battle indoors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-29 18:43:05-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 29 Mar 2003 23:34:22 GMT, indyana68@aol.comREMOVE (Indy) wrote: >>-- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >> >Well who would be stronger than him? Willow easily. She's been stronger even then Buffy since season 5 though they've come up with ever more contrived ways of keeping her powers in the background. Pretty much everyone else is stronger then Spike if the fight happens to come during the hours between sunrise and sunset. Unless the First is nice enough to hold the final battle indoors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-29 20:22:29-08:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Ken Arromdee wrote: > > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". It would be interesting to know if she got pregnant before or after she was called. > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. In a conventional hand to hand fight, maybe, but he's not even as smart as Buffy, and Willows magic would certainly be of more use in this fight. Arm the SITs with guns and other modern weapons, and they'd be much more useful than Spike, unless you arm him also. > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) > I agree, and have said so in several other threads. I've also said the coat should be repulsive to Buffy.

2003-03-29 20:22:29-08:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Ken Arromdee wrote: > > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". It would be interesting to know if she got pregnant before or after she was called. > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. In a conventional hand to hand fight, maybe, but he's not even as smart as Buffy, and Willows magic would certainly be of more use in this fight. Arm the SITs with guns and other modern weapons, and they'd be much more useful than Spike, unless you arm him also. > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) > I agree, and have said so in several other threads. I've also said the coat should be repulsive to Buffy.

2003-03-29 20:53:16-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) writes: > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > have had a child at age 12). It's not unheard of. > You also run into questions like "Did she go > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". Actually, the last part almost resolves itself. If she didn't figure out the betrayal, as Buffy did, then she wouldn't know to have a problem. That's only implausible if Slayers who undergo the Cruciamentum typically do figure it out. But if that's common, then the COW would have a real problem. If (say) 95% of Slayers who reach 18 are Cruciamentified, 25% survive, and 25% of those learn they are betrayed, that's 1 in 17 of Slayers who reach 18. Over the 12 centuries many of them would have turned on the COW. Surely one would have eliminated it beyond the possibility of rebuilding. Therefore one of the premises is false. Either (contrary to both Travers and Giles) the Cruciamentum is not generally done, or the Slayer rarely figures it out. That only leaves these possibilities: a) Nikki was Cruciamentified but never had a clue what really happened. b) Nikki was not Cruciamentified. > -- Anya's comment about Spike's killings. I've said this over and over, but > having a character talk about the holes in the plot does *not* mean that the > show is addressing them, nor does it mean that nothing is wrong. (It's even > odder here, because Spike, having only killed while soulless or while under > the First's control, has an excuse, and Anya doesn't.) > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. Well, I figure if a certain second Slayer shows up, she'll set Buffy straight on that. Or a character will talk about that hole in the plot. }:) -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-03-29 20:53:16-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) writes: > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > have had a child at age 12). It's not unheard of. > You also run into questions like "Did she go > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". Actually, the last part almost resolves itself. If she didn't figure out the betrayal, as Buffy did, then she wouldn't know to have a problem. That's only implausible if Slayers who undergo the Cruciamentum typically do figure it out. But if that's common, then the COW would have a real problem. If (say) 95% of Slayers who reach 18 are Cruciamentified, 25% survive, and 25% of those learn they are betrayed, that's 1 in 17 of Slayers who reach 18. Over the 12 centuries many of them would have turned on the COW. Surely one would have eliminated it beyond the possibility of rebuilding. Therefore one of the premises is false. Either (contrary to both Travers and Giles) the Cruciamentum is not generally done, or the Slayer rarely figures it out. That only leaves these possibilities: a) Nikki was Cruciamentified but never had a clue what really happened. b) Nikki was not Cruciamentified. > -- Anya's comment about Spike's killings. I've said this over and over, but > having a character talk about the holes in the plot does *not* mean that the > show is addressing them, nor does it mean that nothing is wrong. (It's even > odder here, because Spike, having only killed while soulless or while under > the First's control, has an excuse, and Anya doesn't.) > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. Well, I figure if a certain second Slayer shows up, she'll set Buffy straight on that. Or a character will talk about that hole in the plot. }:) -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-03-29 21:02:57-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 30 Mar 2003 01:52:37 GMT, nixfamily2409@aol.com (Nixfamily2409) wrote: >>>-- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >>>> >>>Well who would be stronger than him? >> >>Willow easily. She's been stronger even then Buffy since season 5 though >>they've come up with ever more contrived ways of keeping her powers in the >>background. >>Pretty much everyone else is stronger then Spike if the fight happens to >>come during the hours between sunrise and sunset. Unless the First is nice >>enough to hold the final battle indoors. >Willow may be stronger in the magic sense, but I can't recall seeing her do >much in the way of hand-to-hand combat. I think that is what Buffy meant by >saying Spike is the strongest fighter they have, aside from her that is. > >Nix I'm sure hand to hand is what Buffy meant but what difference does "in the magic sense" make? Even at the end of season 5 Buffy was calling Willow her big gun. Hand to hand combat isn't exactly all that effective against a non corporeal villain. To be honest, I thought it was another in a long line of plot mistakes to make Willow that powerful in season 5. It just created a whole lot more contrivances but that's what they did. By all rights, if Willow fought Spike, she'd set him on fire and cremate him before he got within 10 feet of her. Instead they have her conveniently knocked unconscious when fights start or create reasons why she doesn't dare to use magic. She did just fine on Angel recently though. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-29 21:02:57-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 30 Mar 2003 01:52:37 GMT, nixfamily2409@aol.com (Nixfamily2409) wrote: >>>-- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >>>> >>>Well who would be stronger than him? >> >>Willow easily. She's been stronger even then Buffy since season 5 though >>they've come up with ever more contrived ways of keeping her powers in the >>background. >>Pretty much everyone else is stronger then Spike if the fight happens to >>come during the hours between sunrise and sunset. Unless the First is nice >>enough to hold the final battle indoors. >Willow may be stronger in the magic sense, but I can't recall seeing her do >much in the way of hand-to-hand combat. I think that is what Buffy meant by >saying Spike is the strongest fighter they have, aside from her that is. > >Nix I'm sure hand to hand is what Buffy meant but what difference does "in the magic sense" make? Even at the end of season 5 Buffy was calling Willow her big gun. Hand to hand combat isn't exactly all that effective against a non corporeal villain. To be honest, I thought it was another in a long line of plot mistakes to make Willow that powerful in season 5. It just created a whole lot more contrivances but that's what they did. By all rights, if Willow fought Spike, she'd set him on fire and cremate him before he got within 10 feet of her. Instead they have her conveniently knocked unconscious when fights start or create reasons why she doesn't dare to use magic. She did just fine on Angel recently though. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-29 21:20:33-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Magine <magine@turtleflight.com>)


He didn't "take it back", it was apparently Nikki's coat originally. He took it from her as a trophy after he murdered her. Sort of like a lovable serial killer keeping a finger or eyeball. :P I think keeping the coat is totally evil. -Magine Indy wrote: > Personally I do nto think the ocat means anything to wood, just that he maganed > to get it back; > Why wouldn't spike want the coat?? It's more his than hers and he saw it as a > reble thing taking it back, you know to the victor goes the spoils and all > that.. if thats how he sees it he has twice wone that coat.. (he's still got > some bad boy left in him!)

2003-03-29 21:20:33-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Magine <magine@turtleflight.com>)


He didn't "take it back", it was apparently Nikki's coat originally. He took it from her as a trophy after he murdered her. Sort of like a lovable serial killer keeping a finger or eyeball. :P I think keeping the coat is totally evil. -Magine Indy wrote: > Personally I do nto think the ocat means anything to wood, just that he maganed > to get it back; > Why wouldn't spike want the coat?? It's more his than hers and he saw it as a > reble thing taking it back, you know to the victor goes the spoils and all > that.. if thats how he sees it he has twice wone that coat.. (he's still got > some bad boy left in him!)

2003-03-29 21:22:18-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <20030329183422.28714.00000103@mb-cg.aol.com>, indyana68@aol.comREMOVE (Indy) wrote: > >-- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > Well who would be stronger than him? Faith Willow

2003-03-29 21:22:18-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <20030329183422.28714.00000103@mb-cg.aol.com>, indyana68@aol.comREMOVE (Indy) wrote: > >-- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > Well who would be stronger than him? Faith Willow

2003-03-29 21:23:46-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <20030329205237.27647.00000120@mb-fp.aol.com>, nixfamily2409@aol.com (Nixfamily2409) wrote: > Willow may be stronger in the magic sense, but I can't recall seeing her > do much in the way of hand-to-hand combat. I think that is what Buffy meant > by saying Spike is the strongest fighter they have, aside from her that is. Yeah, and their biggest enemy is incorporeal and insubstantial which pretty much renders physical strength useless and Willow's powers even more relevant. Willow is the single strongest asset in this fight, more so than anyone, even Buffy herself.

2003-03-29 21:23:46-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <20030329205237.27647.00000120@mb-fp.aol.com>, nixfamily2409@aol.com (Nixfamily2409) wrote: > Willow may be stronger in the magic sense, but I can't recall seeing her > do much in the way of hand-to-hand combat. I think that is what Buffy meant > by saying Spike is the strongest fighter they have, aside from her that is. Yeah, and their biggest enemy is incorporeal and insubstantial which pretty much renders physical strength useless and Willow's powers even more relevant. Willow is the single strongest asset in this fight, more so than anyone, even Buffy herself.

2003-03-29 21:26:32-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Magine <magine@turtleflight.com>)


Ken Arromdee wrote: > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". > > -- Anya's comment about Spike's killings. I've said this over and over, but > having a character talk about the holes in the plot does *not* mean that the > show is addressing them, nor does it mean that nothing is wrong. (It's even > odder here, because Spike, having only killed while soulless or while under > the First's control, has an excuse, and Anya doesn't.) > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) > > At least the ending wasn't cliched. Otherwise we'd either have Wood suddenly > realize that trying to kill Spike makes him no better than Spike, or else > we'd have Spike save his life somehow and cause him to lose his quest for > revenge. > -- > Ken Arromdee / arromdee@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee > > "There are some corners of the universe that have bred the most terrible > things, things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be > fought." --Dr. Who, "The Moonbase"

2003-03-29 21:26:32-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Magine <magine@turtleflight.com>)


Ken Arromdee wrote: > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". > > -- Anya's comment about Spike's killings. I've said this over and over, but > having a character talk about the holes in the plot does *not* mean that the > show is addressing them, nor does it mean that nothing is wrong. (It's even > odder here, because Spike, having only killed while soulless or while under > the First's control, has an excuse, and Anya doesn't.) > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) > > At least the ending wasn't cliched. Otherwise we'd either have Wood suddenly > realize that trying to kill Spike makes him no better than Spike, or else > we'd have Spike save his life somehow and cause him to lose his quest for > revenge. > -- > Ken Arromdee / arromdee@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee > > "There are some corners of the universe that have bred the most terrible > things, things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be > fought." --Dr. Who, "The Moonbase"

2003-03-29 21:27:05-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <lljc8v81vo5fmedd9o6unp2vj5c1iuv5qe@4ax.com>, EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote: > Instead they have her conveniently knocked unconscious when fights > start or create reasons why she doesn't dare to use magic. She did just > fine on Angel recently though. I loved the scene of her and Cordelia going up against each other, magick-to-magick. And Wesley's amusing comment to Connor about the extent of Willow's powers. 30 INT. HYPERION HOTEL-- CORDELIA'S ROOM-- NIGHT 30 Cordelia's gaze turns cold. CORDELIA You want to go, Glinda? We'll go. She whips her hand forward, sending a massive burst of energy down toward the lobby. CUT TO: 31 INT. HYPERION HOTEL-- LOBBY-- NIGHT 31 Willow shrieks in agony and doubles over. CONNOR (to Fred) Are you sure that she can handle him? Willow stands back up, her hands splayed out to her sides, her eyes an inky jet black. WILLOW Ahlesh ashtoreth! The lights dim, a low rumbling reverberates through the building and the entire hotel shakes to its foundation. WESLEY (dry) I think she can hold her own.

2003-03-29 21:27:05-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <lljc8v81vo5fmedd9o6unp2vj5c1iuv5qe@4ax.com>, EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote: > Instead they have her conveniently knocked unconscious when fights > start or create reasons why she doesn't dare to use magic. She did just > fine on Angel recently though. I loved the scene of her and Cordelia going up against each other, magick-to-magick. And Wesley's amusing comment to Connor about the extent of Willow's powers. 30 INT. HYPERION HOTEL-- CORDELIA'S ROOM-- NIGHT 30 Cordelia's gaze turns cold. CORDELIA You want to go, Glinda? We'll go. She whips her hand forward, sending a massive burst of energy down toward the lobby. CUT TO: 31 INT. HYPERION HOTEL-- LOBBY-- NIGHT 31 Willow shrieks in agony and doubles over. CONNOR (to Fred) Are you sure that she can handle him? Willow stands back up, her hands splayed out to her sides, her eyes an inky jet black. WILLOW Ahlesh ashtoreth! The lights dim, a low rumbling reverberates through the building and the entire hotel shakes to its foundation. WESLEY (dry) I think she can hold her own.

2003-03-29 22:34:43-08:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


DarkMagic wrote: > > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now that > she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but Buffy, even > comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. Useful but not essential in the 21st century. Hand to hand combat is no longer necessary. Intelligence and the ability to use tools are the qualities that separate humans from the other beasts. Spike isn't particularly smart, and uses the same ancient weapons as Buffy. Unfortunately, none of the SITs seem all that bright either. However, a SIT, or even Dawn, armed with a gun or other modern weapons would be more effective than Spike. Fighting the First would probably require more intelligence than strength. Willow seems to be the best Sunnydale candidate for going one on one with the First. > > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. > > > > Evil, evil, evil. > > Evil, evil, evil.

2003-03-29 22:34:43-08:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


DarkMagic wrote: > > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now that > she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but Buffy, even > comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. Useful but not essential in the 21st century. Hand to hand combat is no longer necessary. Intelligence and the ability to use tools are the qualities that separate humans from the other beasts. Spike isn't particularly smart, and uses the same ancient weapons as Buffy. Unfortunately, none of the SITs seem all that bright either. However, a SIT, or even Dawn, armed with a gun or other modern weapons would be more effective than Spike. Fighting the First would probably require more intelligence than strength. Willow seems to be the best Sunnydale candidate for going one on one with the First. > > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. > > > > Evil, evil, evil. > > Evil, evil, evil.

2003-03-29 22:54:51+00:00 - Mar 25 episode - (arromdee@violet.rahul.net)


Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". -- Anya's comment about Spike's killings. I've said this over and over, but having a character talk about the holes in the plot does *not* mean that the show is addressing them, nor does it mean that nothing is wrong. (It's even odder here, because Spike, having only killed while soulless or while under the First's control, has an excuse, and Anya doesn't.) -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) At least the ending wasn't cliched. Otherwise we'd either have Wood suddenly realize that trying to kill Spike makes him no better than Spike, or else we'd have Spike save his life somehow and cause him to lose his quest for revenge. -- Ken Arromdee / arromdee@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee "There are some corners of the universe that have bred the most terrible things, things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be fought." --Dr. Who, "The Moonbase"

2003-03-29 22:54:51+00:00 - Mar 25 episode - (arromdee@violet.rahul.net)


Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". -- Anya's comment about Spike's killings. I've said this over and over, but having a character talk about the holes in the plot does *not* mean that the show is addressing them, nor does it mean that nothing is wrong. (It's even odder here, because Spike, having only killed while soulless or while under the First's control, has an excuse, and Anya doesn't.) -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) At least the ending wasn't cliched. Otherwise we'd either have Wood suddenly realize that trying to kill Spike makes him no better than Spike, or else we'd have Spike save his life somehow and cause him to lose his quest for revenge. -- Ken Arromdee / arromdee@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee "There are some corners of the universe that have bred the most terrible things, things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be fought." --Dr. Who, "The Moonbase"

2003-03-29 23:34:22+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (indyana68@aol.comREMOVE)


> >-- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by >Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. He said he was 4 in an earlier episdoe, he did not remember Spike at first. > and would she really want >her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". The wathcer felt guilty for her death and raised him, perhaps she had no family, unlike Buffy. > >-- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > Well who would be stronger than him? > >-- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, Personally I do nto think the ocat means anything to wood, just that he maganed to get it back; Why wouldn't spike want the coat?? It's more his than hers and he saw it as a reble thing taking it back, you know to the victor goes the spoils and all that.. if thats how he sees it he has twice wone that coat.. (he's still got some bad boy left in him!) > Spike save his life somehow and cause him to lose his quest for >revenge. But he's already done that and it didn't stop him I think if anythin Spik saving his life shows him how inadiquit h he is and makes him want more revenge.

2003-03-29 23:34:22+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (indyana68@aol.comREMOVE)


> >-- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by >Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. He said he was 4 in an earlier episdoe, he did not remember Spike at first. > and would she really want >her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". The wathcer felt guilty for her death and raised him, perhaps she had no family, unlike Buffy. > >-- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > Well who would be stronger than him? > >-- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, Personally I do nto think the ocat means anything to wood, just that he maganed to get it back; Why wouldn't spike want the coat?? It's more his than hers and he saw it as a reble thing taking it back, you know to the victor goes the spoils and all that.. if thats how he sees it he has twice wone that coat.. (he's still got some bad boy left in him!) > Spike save his life somehow and cause him to lose his quest for >revenge. But he's already done that and it didn't stop him I think if anythin Spik saving his life shows him how inadiquit h he is and makes him want more revenge.

2003-03-30 00:57:37-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message news:b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net... > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". > I think she was older, he was younger. More like 23 and 4. > -- Anya's comment about Spike's killings. I've said this over and over, but > having a character talk about the holes in the plot does *not* mean that the > show is addressing them, nor does it mean that nothing is wrong. I liked the "Get out of jail free card" phrase she used. I've used that often myself on this ng. No one will ever convince me that the writers don't lurk here. Otherwise, I agree with you. They aren't addressing plot holes just pointing them out. It shows that they pay attention to what the fans think, they just don't care. ;) > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. > -- Spike still keeping the coat. > > Evil, evil, evil. > > > > -- -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-30 00:57:37-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message news:b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net... > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". > I think she was older, he was younger. More like 23 and 4. > -- Anya's comment about Spike's killings. I've said this over and over, but > having a character talk about the holes in the plot does *not* mean that the > show is addressing them, nor does it mean that nothing is wrong. I liked the "Get out of jail free card" phrase she used. I've used that often myself on this ng. No one will ever convince me that the writers don't lurk here. Otherwise, I agree with you. They aren't addressing plot holes just pointing them out. It shows that they pay attention to what the fans think, they just don't care. ;) > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. > -- Spike still keeping the coat. > > Evil, evil, evil. > > > > -- -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-30 01:52:37+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (nixfamily2409@aol.com)


>>-- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >>> >>Well who would be stronger than him? > >Willow easily. She's been stronger even then Buffy since season 5 though >they've come up with ever more contrived ways of keeping her powers in the >background. >Pretty much everyone else is stronger then Spike if the fight happens to >come during the hours between sunrise and sunset. Unless the First is nice >enough to hold the final battle indoors. > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people > didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" > - (Calvin and Hobbes) > >email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com > > > > Willow may be stronger in the magic sense, but I can't recall seeing her do much in the way of hand-to-hand combat. I think that is what Buffy meant by saying Spike is the strongest fighter they have, aside from her that is. Nix

2003-03-30 01:52:37+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (nixfamily2409@aol.com)


>>-- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >>> >>Well who would be stronger than him? > >Willow easily. She's been stronger even then Buffy since season 5 though >they've come up with ever more contrived ways of keeping her powers in the >background. >Pretty much everyone else is stronger then Spike if the fight happens to >come during the hours between sunrise and sunset. Unless the First is nice >enough to hold the final battle indoors. > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people > didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" > - (Calvin and Hobbes) > >email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com > > > > Willow may be stronger in the magic sense, but I can't recall seeing her do much in the way of hand-to-hand combat. I think that is what Buffy meant by saying Spike is the strongest fighter they have, aside from her that is. Nix

2003-03-30 07:28:14-08:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (rshiflet@hotmail.com)


arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message news:<b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net>... > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". Maybe she believed the Watchers were always right. If they drugged her and put her in a house with a crazy vampire, should would have thought that it was only to make her stronger, not an act of betrayal. > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. He is - until Faith shows up. > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) This disturbed me more than his attitude towards killing Nikki. I could understand him not feeling guilty about killing someone in a fair fight, but to keep the coat... Renee

2003-03-30 07:28:14-08:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (rshiflet@hotmail.com)


arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message news:<b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net>... > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". Maybe she believed the Watchers were always right. If they drugged her and put her in a house with a crazy vampire, should would have thought that it was only to make her stronger, not an act of betrayal. > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. He is - until Faith shows up. > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) This disturbed me more than his attitude towards killing Nikki. I could understand him not feeling guilty about killing someone in a fair fight, but to keep the coat... Renee

2003-03-30 09:38:57-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Deborah Terreson <foodNOTSPAMandart@comcast.net>)


---------- In article <3E867105.8DFF12DC@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > I agree, and have said so in several other threads. I've also said the > coat should be repulsive to Buffy. Does anyone other than Spike and Wood know where the coat came from?

2003-03-30 09:38:57-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Deborah Terreson <foodNOTSPAMandart@comcast.net>)


---------- In article <3E867105.8DFF12DC@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > I agree, and have said so in several other threads. I've also said the > coat should be repulsive to Buffy. Does anyone other than Spike and Wood know where the coat came from?

2003-03-30 10:18:27-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > "Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy the > orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, best, soldier. No, Willow is. She's a hundred times more powerful than Spike, especially against an incorporeal being.

2003-03-30 10:18:27-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > "Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy the > orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, best, soldier. No, Willow is. She's a hundred times more powerful than Spike, especially against an incorporeal being.

2003-03-30 10:21:26-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now > that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but Buffy, > even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters had a contract.

2003-03-30 10:21:26-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now > that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but Buffy, > even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters had a contract.

2003-03-30 10:28:05-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <KNqdnUJBruOcnBqjXTWc3Q@comcast.com>, Deborah Terreson <foodNOTSPAMandart@comcast.net> wrote: > ---------- > In article <3E867105.8DFF12DC@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > > > I agree, and have said so in several other threads. I've also said the > > coat should be repulsive to Buffy. > > Does anyone other than Spike and Wood know where the coat came from? Spike might have told Buffy back in _Fool for Love_. Can't say for sure because we didn't get to hear the story as told by Spike, just the flashback reenactment of it, so there may have been details we saw (such as the coat) that Spike never mentioned. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-03-30 10:28:05-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <KNqdnUJBruOcnBqjXTWc3Q@comcast.com>, Deborah Terreson <foodNOTSPAMandart@comcast.net> wrote: > ---------- > In article <3E867105.8DFF12DC@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > > > I agree, and have said so in several other threads. I've also said the > > coat should be repulsive to Buffy. > > Does anyone other than Spike and Wood know where the coat came from? Spike might have told Buffy back in _Fool for Love_. Can't say for sure because we didn't get to hear the story as told by Spike, just the flashback reenactment of it, so there may have been details we saw (such as the coat) that Spike never mentioned. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-03-30 10:56:07-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <6WEha.75215$M7.1633531@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:BTR1702-49B6F0.10182730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > In article <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > > > "Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > > > > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message > > > > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > > > > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > > > > > > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy the > > > orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, > > > best, soldier. > > > > No, Willow is. She's a hundred times more powerful than Spike, > > especially against an incorporeal being. > > > To date she's been as ineffective as the rest of them. Aside from opening > the portal to the Slayerverse, what has she done that even carried the pretense of > helping Buffy fight The First? The fact that she hasn't used her powers (by writer's fiat, I might add), doesn't mean she isn't powerful. If I have a .50-caliber handgun but choose not to shoot anyone, it doesn't mean I don't have the power to do so.

2003-03-30 10:56:07-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <6WEha.75215$M7.1633531@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:BTR1702-49B6F0.10182730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > In article <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > > > "Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > > > > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message > > > > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > > > > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > > > > > > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy the > > > orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, > > > best, soldier. > > > > No, Willow is. She's a hundred times more powerful than Spike, > > especially against an incorporeal being. > > > To date she's been as ineffective as the rest of them. Aside from opening > the portal to the Slayerverse, what has she done that even carried the pretense of > helping Buffy fight The First? The fact that she hasn't used her powers (by writer's fiat, I might add), doesn't mean she isn't powerful. If I have a .50-caliber handgun but choose not to shoot anyone, it doesn't mean I don't have the power to do so.

2003-03-30 10:58:21-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <20030330110840.28690.00000139@mb-fv.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > >Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode > >From: "Kelzmelzer" anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov > >Date: 3/30/2003 7:39 AM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com> > > > > >> Renee > > > >The coat is like a security blanket for Spike. You saw what he was > >reduced to without it. > > Yeah, he was reduced to being a good man and a nice guy who doesn't get > his rocks off by killing and maiming. How awful. Precisely. They took a wonderful villain and turned him into someone that you might want to live next door to but makes for an utterly boring and insipid television character. > >With coat, he's Spike, bad-ass vampire. > > Oooooooh, badass vampire! It's so cool for Spike to have the values of a > 14 year old boy for the rest of eternity. :p > > >Sans coat, he's the ineffectual and > >weak William. > > > > Being a good man who doesn't have lust to kill is NOT weak. No, but it's boring TV. I don't want to watch my upright and moral next door neighbor's life every week on TV. I want something that's actually interesting and exciting.

2003-03-30 10:58:21-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <20030330110840.28690.00000139@mb-fv.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > >Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode > >From: "Kelzmelzer" anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov > >Date: 3/30/2003 7:39 AM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com> > > > > >> Renee > > > >The coat is like a security blanket for Spike. You saw what he was > >reduced to without it. > > Yeah, he was reduced to being a good man and a nice guy who doesn't get > his rocks off by killing and maiming. How awful. Precisely. They took a wonderful villain and turned him into someone that you might want to live next door to but makes for an utterly boring and insipid television character. > >With coat, he's Spike, bad-ass vampire. > > Oooooooh, badass vampire! It's so cool for Spike to have the values of a > 14 year old boy for the rest of eternity. :p > > >Sans coat, he's the ineffectual and > >weak William. > > > > Being a good man who doesn't have lust to kill is NOT weak. No, but it's boring TV. I don't want to watch my upright and moral next door neighbor's life every week on TV. I want something that's actually interesting and exciting.

2003-03-30 11:14:03-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <LoFha.75573$M7.1618790@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:BTR1702-FBE94C.10560730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > In article <6WEha.75215$M7.1633531@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > > > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > > > news:BTR1702-49B6F0.10182730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > > > In article <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > > > > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > > > > > > > "Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > > > > > > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message > > > > > > > > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > > > > > > > > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy > > > > > the orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, > > > > > best, soldier. > > > > > > > > No, Willow is. She's a hundred times more powerful than Spike, > > > > especially against an incorporeal being. > > > > > > > To date she's been as ineffective as the rest of them. Aside from > > > opening the portal to the Slayerverse, what has she done that even carried > > > the pretense of helping Buffy fight The First? > > > > The fact that she hasn't used her powers (by writer's fiat, I might > > add), doesn't mean she isn't powerful. > > > We can likely expect that the writers will continue their choice of not > using Willow, the deus ex machina in cute girl form. > > > If I have a .50-caliber handgun but choose not to shoot anyone, it > > doesn't mean I don't have the power to do so. > > > The few times Willow has done magic, the first has restrained her > somehow. Willow doesn't have the power. Sure she does. She just has to find out how to counter The First's magick. She did it with Cordelia recently when Cordelia "restrained" her the same way The First did. And the way the two storylines seem to be converging, I wouldn't be surprised if Cordelia isn't The First or allied with the The First in some way. If that's the case, then we know Willow can fight it and fight it effectively.

2003-03-30 11:14:03-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <LoFha.75573$M7.1618790@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:BTR1702-FBE94C.10560730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > In article <6WEha.75215$M7.1633531@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > > > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > > > news:BTR1702-49B6F0.10182730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > > > In article <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > > > > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > > > > > > > "Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > > > > > > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message > > > > > > > > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > > > > > > > > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy > > > > > the orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, > > > > > best, soldier. > > > > > > > > No, Willow is. She's a hundred times more powerful than Spike, > > > > especially against an incorporeal being. > > > > > > > To date she's been as ineffective as the rest of them. Aside from > > > opening the portal to the Slayerverse, what has she done that even carried > > > the pretense of helping Buffy fight The First? > > > > The fact that she hasn't used her powers (by writer's fiat, I might > > add), doesn't mean she isn't powerful. > > > We can likely expect that the writers will continue their choice of not > using Willow, the deus ex machina in cute girl form. > > > If I have a .50-caliber handgun but choose not to shoot anyone, it > > doesn't mean I don't have the power to do so. > > > The few times Willow has done magic, the first has restrained her > somehow. Willow doesn't have the power. Sure she does. She just has to find out how to counter The First's magick. She did it with Cordelia recently when Cordelia "restrained" her the same way The First did. And the way the two storylines seem to be converging, I wouldn't be surprised if Cordelia isn't The First or allied with the The First in some way. If that's the case, then we know Willow can fight it and fight it effectively.

2003-03-30 12:53:01+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message news:b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net... > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) Here's my fanwanking of the coat and why Spike kept it. It's a symbolic and constant reminder to neoSpike that there is a stone cold killer(the demon) in him at all times and that he can never forget that. That coat clearly represents the worst of Spike's behavior as an unsouled vamp and being able to acknowledge the things he did in that coat helps him to be a fully integrated personality with a conscience and to remember not to go over that edge again. Unlike Angel who represses Angelus as much as possible so that when Angelus does come out he's a maniac and starts killing everything in sight. I think that's why the writers showed Spike going into Vampface and saying he's gonna kill Wood. At some point(unseen alas), neoSpike while vamped out decided to spare Wood's life. It's a statement by the writers that neoSpike is in full control now of his demon. That's what separates neoSpike from Angel.

2003-03-30 12:53:01+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message news:b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net... > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) Here's my fanwanking of the coat and why Spike kept it. It's a symbolic and constant reminder to neoSpike that there is a stone cold killer(the demon) in him at all times and that he can never forget that. That coat clearly represents the worst of Spike's behavior as an unsouled vamp and being able to acknowledge the things he did in that coat helps him to be a fully integrated personality with a conscience and to remember not to go over that edge again. Unlike Angel who represses Angelus as much as possible so that when Angelus does come out he's a maniac and starts killing everything in sight. I think that's why the writers showed Spike going into Vampface and saying he's gonna kill Wood. At some point(unseen alas), neoSpike while vamped out decided to spare Wood's life. It's a statement by the writers that neoSpike is in full control now of his demon. That's what separates neoSpike from Angel.

2003-03-30 15:02:42-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > BTR1701 wrote: > > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > > > >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > >>> > >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now > >> that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but > >> Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. > > > > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back > > to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is > > because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > > > > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters > > had a contract. > > Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is deeply > in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, muttering, > shuffling away...) Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, ever. She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was keeping him around just because of her personal feelings she would be an absolute idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they are both wrong. So are you. Sorry. -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-30 15:02:42-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > BTR1701 wrote: > > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > > > >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > >>> > >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now > >> that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but > >> Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. > > > > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back > > to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is > > because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > > > > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters > > had a contract. > > Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is deeply > in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, muttering, > shuffling away...) Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, ever. She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was keeping him around just because of her personal feelings she would be an absolute idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they are both wrong. So are you. Sorry. -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-30 15:04:42-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:NMBha.2883$rN3.260854@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > news:b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net... > > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with > it: > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, > he > > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and > constantly > > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do > that, > > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) > > Here's my fanwanking of the coat and why Spike kept it. It's a symbolic and > constant reminder to neoSpike that there is a stone cold killer(the demon) > in him at all times and that he can never forget that. That coat clearly > represents the worst of Spike's behavior as an unsouled vamp and being able > to acknowledge the things he did in that coat helps him to be a fully > integrated personality with a conscience and to remember not to go over that > edge again. I agree that's why he's kept the coat. The problem with that is that he completely and utterly fails to take into account what that does to Wood everytime he sees it. Again, a total lack of compassion or understanding for how his actions have impacted his victims. Evil. -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here." >

2003-03-30 15:04:42-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:NMBha.2883$rN3.260854@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > news:b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net... > > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with > it: > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, > he > > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and > constantly > > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do > that, > > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) > > Here's my fanwanking of the coat and why Spike kept it. It's a symbolic and > constant reminder to neoSpike that there is a stone cold killer(the demon) > in him at all times and that he can never forget that. That coat clearly > represents the worst of Spike's behavior as an unsouled vamp and being able > to acknowledge the things he did in that coat helps him to be a fully > integrated personality with a conscience and to remember not to go over that > edge again. I agree that's why he's kept the coat. The problem with that is that he completely and utterly fails to take into account what that does to Wood everytime he sees it. Again, a total lack of compassion or understanding for how his actions have impacted his victims. Evil. -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here." >

2003-03-30 15:16:33-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <vtSdnWBVz5n60BqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > > BTR1701 wrote: > > > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > > > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > > > > > >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > >>> > > >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful > > >> now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but > > >> Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting > > >> skill. > > > > > > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > > > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > > > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back > > > to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is > > > because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > > > > > > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters > > > had a contract. > > > > Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is deeply > > in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, > > muttering, shuffling away...) > > Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, ever. > She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was keeping > him around just because of her personal feelings she would be an absolute > idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they are both > wrong. So are you. Sorry. How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. Seems pretty idiotic to me.

2003-03-30 15:16:33-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <vtSdnWBVz5n60BqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > > BTR1701 wrote: > > > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > > > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > > > > > >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > >>> > > >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful > > >> now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but > > >> Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting > > >> skill. > > > > > > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > > > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > > > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back > > > to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is > > > because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > > > > > > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters > > > had a contract. > > > > Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is deeply > > in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, > > muttering, shuffling away...) > > Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, ever. > She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was keeping > him around just because of her personal feelings she would be an absolute > idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they are both > wrong. So are you. Sorry. How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. Seems pretty idiotic to me.

2003-03-30 15:39:05+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Kelzmelzer <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov>)


"Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message news:<b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net>... > > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > > have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go > > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". > > Maybe she believed the Watchers were always right. If they drugged > her and put her in a house with a crazy vampire, should would have > thought that it was only to make her stronger, not an act of betrayal. > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy the orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, best, soldier. > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he > > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly > > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, > > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) > > This disturbed me more than his attitude towards killing Nikki. I > could understand him not feeling guilty about killing someone in a > fair fight, but to keep the coat... > > Renee The coat is like a security blanket for Spike. You saw what he was reduced to without it. With coat, he's Spike, bad-ass vampire. Sans coat, he's the ineffectual and weak William.

2003-03-30 15:39:05+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Kelzmelzer <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov>)


"Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message news:<b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net>... > > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > > have had a child at age 12). You also run into questions like "Did she go > > through the Cruciamentum, how did she survive it, and would she really want > > her child to be left with her Watcher in that case". > > Maybe she believed the Watchers were always right. If they drugged > her and put her in a house with a crazy vampire, should would have > thought that it was only to make her stronger, not an act of betrayal. > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy the orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, best, soldier. > > -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, he > > should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and constantly > > insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do that, > > and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) > > This disturbed me more than his attitude towards killing Nikki. I > could understand him not feeling guilty about killing someone in a > fair fight, but to keep the coat... > > Renee The coat is like a security blanket for Spike. You saw what he was reduced to without it. With coat, he's Spike, bad-ass vampire. Sans coat, he's the ineffectual and weak William.

2003-03-30 16:06:30+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode >From: "Chris Zabel" alephnull@earthlink.net >Date: 3/30/2003 4:53 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <NMBha.2883$rN3.260854@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > >"Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message >news:b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net... >> Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with >it: >> -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, >he >> should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and >constantly >> insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do >that, >> and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) > >Here's my fanwanking of the coat and why Spike kept it. It's a symbolic and >constant reminder to neoSpike that there is a stone cold killer(the demon) >in him at all times and that he can never >forget that. If ME really respects Spike and wants him to be a hero or even an anti-hero they'd better have him either make what you just said crystal clear, or have him give Wood the coat. I don't think he will tho. I think they want semi-evil, semi-good Spike. If he keeps the coat, the bleached hair and acts like a jerk from time to time, he's still semi evil and the fans will still want to watch him. And he won't be a threat to their precious little Angel. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-30 16:06:30+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode >From: "Chris Zabel" alephnull@earthlink.net >Date: 3/30/2003 4:53 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <NMBha.2883$rN3.260854@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > >"Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message >news:b6587r$epc$1@blue.rahul.net... >> Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with >it: >> -- Spike still keeping the coat. Now that he knows what it means to Wood, >he >> should know that wearing it is the equivalent of deliberately and >constantly >> insulting another member of the team. He should know better than to do >that, >> and if he doesn't, Buffy should. (Besides, the coat still isn't his.) > >Here's my fanwanking of the coat and why Spike kept it. It's a symbolic and >constant reminder to neoSpike that there is a stone cold killer(the demon) >in him at all times and that he can never >forget that. If ME really respects Spike and wants him to be a hero or even an anti-hero they'd better have him either make what you just said crystal clear, or have him give Wood the coat. I don't think he will tho. I think they want semi-evil, semi-good Spike. If he keeps the coat, the bleached hair and acts like a jerk from time to time, he's still semi evil and the fans will still want to watch him. And he won't be a threat to their precious little Angel. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-30 16:08:40+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode >From: "Kelzmelzer" anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov >Date: 3/30/2003 7:39 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com> > >> Renee > >The coat is like a security blanket for Spike. You saw what he was reduced to >without it. Yeah, he was reduced to being a good man and a nice guy who doesn't get his rocks off by killing and maiming. How awful. >With coat, he's Spike, bad-ass vampire. Oooooooh, badass vampire! It's so cool for Spike to have the values of a 14 year old boy for the rest of eternity. :p >Sans coat, he's the ineffectual and >weak William. > Being a good man who doesn't have lust to kill is NOT weak. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-30 16:08:40+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode >From: "Kelzmelzer" anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov >Date: 3/30/2003 7:39 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com> > >> Renee > >The coat is like a security blanket for Spike. You saw what he was reduced to >without it. Yeah, he was reduced to being a good man and a nice guy who doesn't get his rocks off by killing and maiming. How awful. >With coat, he's Spike, bad-ass vampire. Oooooooh, badass vampire! It's so cool for Spike to have the values of a 14 year old boy for the rest of eternity. :p >Sans coat, he's the ineffectual and >weak William. > Being a good man who doesn't have lust to kill is NOT weak. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-30 16:19:55+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com wrote in article <m33cl5d3hv.fsf@panix.com>... > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) writes: > > > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > > have had a child at age 12). > > It's not unheard of. > [elided] Robin was four years old at the time of his mother's death. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-30 16:19:55+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com wrote in article <m33cl5d3hv.fsf@panix.com>... > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) writes: > > > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: > > > > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by > > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must > > have had a child at age 12). > > It's not unheard of. > [elided] Robin was four years old at the time of his mother's death. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-30 16:22:24+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (nimue <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com>)


BTR1701 wrote: > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >>> >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now >> that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but >> Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. > > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back > to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is > because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters > had a contract. Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is deeply in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, muttering, shuffling away...) -- nimue "There is tremendous power in being gentle." LeVar Burton discussing Mr. Rogers Remember, your smile may be the only smile a child receives today.

2003-03-30 16:22:24+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (nimue <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com>)


BTR1701 wrote: > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >>> >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now >> that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but >> Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. > > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back > to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is > because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters > had a contract. Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is deeply in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, muttering, shuffling away...) -- nimue "There is tremendous power in being gentle." LeVar Burton discussing Mr. Rogers Remember, your smile may be the only smile a child receives today.

2003-03-30 16:27:46+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Kelzmelzer <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov>)


"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:BTR1702-49B6F0.10182730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > In article <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > "Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > > > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message > > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > > > > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy the > > orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, best, soldier. > > No, Willow is. She's a hundred times more powerful than Spike, > especially against an incorporeal being. > To date she's been as ineffective as the rest of them. Aside from opening the portal to the Slayerverse, what has she done that even carried the pretense of helping Buffy fight The First?

2003-03-30 16:27:46+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Kelzmelzer <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov>)


"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:BTR1702-49B6F0.10182730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > In article <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > "Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > > > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message > > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > > > > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy the > > orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, best, soldier. > > No, Willow is. She's a hundred times more powerful than Spike, > especially against an incorporeal being. > To date she's been as ineffective as the rest of them. Aside from opening the portal to the Slayerverse, what has she done that even carried the pretense of helping Buffy fight The First?

2003-03-30 16:32:10+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Kelzmelzer <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030330110840.28690.00000139@mb-fv.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode > >From: "Kelzmelzer" anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov > >Date: 3/30/2003 7:39 AM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com> > > > > >> Renee > > > >The coat is like a security blanket for Spike. You saw what he was reduced to > >without it. > > Yeah, he was reduced to being a good man and a nice guy who doesn't get his > rocks off by killing and maiming. How awful. > I meant his whole insane, cross-hugging, self-hating, paradoxical soul-having thing. Once he got the jacket back, he was a-ok. > >With coat, he's Spike, bad-ass vampire. > > Oooooooh, badass vampire! It's so cool for Spike to have the values of a 14 > year old boy for the rest of eternity. :p > That's the Spike that Buffy needs. > >Sans coat, he's the ineffectual and > >weak William. > > > > Being a good man who doesn't have lust to kill is NOT weak. > > Weak is being off his nut and weepy. I agree that his not killing Wood was a good thing. and just to speak my final piece on the matter of his trophy, The Slayer had no further use for it.

2003-03-30 16:32:10+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Kelzmelzer <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030330110840.28690.00000139@mb-fv.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode > >From: "Kelzmelzer" anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov > >Date: 3/30/2003 7:39 AM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com> > > > > >> Renee > > > >The coat is like a security blanket for Spike. You saw what he was reduced to > >without it. > > Yeah, he was reduced to being a good man and a nice guy who doesn't get his > rocks off by killing and maiming. How awful. > I meant his whole insane, cross-hugging, self-hating, paradoxical soul-having thing. Once he got the jacket back, he was a-ok. > >With coat, he's Spike, bad-ass vampire. > > Oooooooh, badass vampire! It's so cool for Spike to have the values of a 14 > year old boy for the rest of eternity. :p > That's the Spike that Buffy needs. > >Sans coat, he's the ineffectual and > >weak William. > > > > Being a good man who doesn't have lust to kill is NOT weak. > > Weak is being off his nut and weepy. I agree that his not killing Wood was a good thing. and just to speak my final piece on the matter of his trophy, The Slayer had no further use for it.

2003-03-30 16:46:02-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <300320031654437055%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1701 > <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. > > > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. > > She didn't go out to fight the Turok-Han. She went out to find > Annabelle. Knowing that the Turok-han was out and about and Annabelle was in danger from it.

2003-03-30 16:46:02-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <300320031654437055%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1701 > <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. > > > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. > > She didn't go out to fight the Turok-Han. She went out to find > Annabelle. Knowing that the Turok-han was out and about and Annabelle was in danger from it.

2003-03-30 16:54:43-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. She didn't go out to fight the Turok-Han. She went out to find Annabelle. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-03-30 16:54:43-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. She didn't go out to fight the Turok-Han. She went out to find Annabelle. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-03-30 17:00:27+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Kelzmelzer <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov>)


"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:BTR1702-FBE94C.10560730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > In article <6WEha.75215$M7.1633531@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > > news:BTR1702-49B6F0.10182730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > > In article <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > > > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > > > > > "Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > > > > > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message > > > > > > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > > > > > > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > > > > > > > > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy the > > > > orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, > > > > best, soldier. > > > > > > No, Willow is. She's a hundred times more powerful than Spike, > > > especially against an incorporeal being. > > > > > To date she's been as ineffective as the rest of them. Aside from opening > > the portal to the Slayerverse, what has she done that even carried the pretense of > > helping Buffy fight The First? > > The fact that she hasn't used her powers (by writer's fiat, I might > add), doesn't mean she isn't powerful. > We can likely expect that the writers will continue their choice of not using Willow, the deus ex machina in cute girl form. > If I have a .50-caliber handgun but choose not to shoot anyone, it > doesn't mean I don't have the power to do so. > The few times Willow has done magic, the first has restrained her somehow. Willow doesn't have the power.

2003-03-30 17:00:27+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Kelzmelzer <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov>)


"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:BTR1702-FBE94C.10560730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > In article <6WEha.75215$M7.1633531@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > > news:BTR1702-49B6F0.10182730032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > > In article <tcEha.74672$M7.1628551@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, > > > "Kelzmelzer" <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov> wrote: > > > > > > > "Renee" <rshiflet@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > news:f6980f4e.0303300728.2cce6ae0@posting.google.com... > > > > > arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in message > > > > > > > > > -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > > > > > > > He is - until Faith shows up. > > > > > > > > > > Ah, but will Faith be Buffy's strongest warrior, or will she defy the > > > > orders General Buffy hands down? Spike may still be Buffy's last, > > > > best, soldier. > > > > > > No, Willow is. She's a hundred times more powerful than Spike, > > > especially against an incorporeal being. > > > > > To date she's been as ineffective as the rest of them. Aside from opening > > the portal to the Slayerverse, what has she done that even carried the pretense of > > helping Buffy fight The First? > > The fact that she hasn't used her powers (by writer's fiat, I might > add), doesn't mean she isn't powerful. > We can likely expect that the writers will continue their choice of not using Willow, the deus ex machina in cute girl form. > If I have a .50-caliber handgun but choose not to shoot anyone, it > doesn't mean I don't have the power to do so. > The few times Willow has done magic, the first has restrained her somehow. Willow doesn't have the power.

2003-03-30 18:01:20-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > In article <vtSdnWBVz5n60BqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > > > BTR1701 wrote: > > > > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > > > > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > > >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > > > > > > > >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > >>> > > > >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful > > > >> now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but > > > >> Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting > > > >> skill. > > > > > > > > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > > > > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > > > > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back > > > > to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is > > > > because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > > > > > > > > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters > > > > had a contract. > > > > > > Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is deeply > > > in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, > > > muttering, shuffling away...) > > > > Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, ever. > > She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was keeping > > him around just because of her personal feelings she would be an absolute > > idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they are both > > wrong. So are you. Sorry. > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. Because Buffy has said repeatedly that she doesn't love Spike. Buffy isn't an idiot, no if's, ands, or buts, about it. > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. *shrug* A miscalculation. She ended up killing it with nothing but her fists and a piece of wire, so it wasn't even that big of a miscalculation. -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-30 18:01:20-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > In article <vtSdnWBVz5n60BqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > > > BTR1701 wrote: > > > > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > > > > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > > >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > > > > > > > >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > >>> > > > >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful > > > >> now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but > > > >> Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting > > > >> skill. > > > > > > > > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > > > > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > > > > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back > > > > to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is > > > > because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > > > > > > > > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters > > > > had a contract. > > > > > > Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is deeply > > > in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, > > > muttering, shuffling away...) > > > > Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, ever. > > She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was keeping > > him around just because of her personal feelings she would be an absolute > > idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they are both > > wrong. So are you. Sorry. > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. Because Buffy has said repeatedly that she doesn't love Spike. Buffy isn't an idiot, no if's, ands, or buts, about it. > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. *shrug* A miscalculation. She ended up killing it with nothing but her fists and a piece of wire, so it wasn't even that big of a miscalculation. -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-30 18:02:22-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:BTR1702-5620FB.16460230032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > In article <300320031654437055%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample > <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > In article <BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1701 > > <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > > > > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > > > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > > > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. > > > > > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. > > > > She didn't go out to fight the Turok-Han. She went out to find > > Annabelle. > > Knowing that the Turok-han was out and about and Annabelle was in danger > from it. That's called being a hero. Doing her job, accepting responsibility, sacrificing her own safety for the well being of others. You have a funny definition of idiocy. -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-30 18:02:22-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:BTR1702-5620FB.16460230032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > In article <300320031654437055%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample > <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > In article <BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1701 > > <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > > > > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > > > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > > > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. > > > > > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. > > > > She didn't go out to fight the Turok-Han. She went out to find > > Annabelle. > > Knowing that the Turok-han was out and about and Annabelle was in danger > from it. That's called being a hero. Doing her job, accepting responsibility, sacrificing her own safety for the well being of others. You have a funny definition of idiocy. -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-30 18:22:28-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com>)


In article <BTR1702-C11985.21234629032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1702@ix.netcom.com says... > In article <20030329205237.27647.00000120@mb-fp.aol.com>, > nixfamily2409@aol.com (Nixfamily2409) wrote: > > > Willow may be stronger in the magic sense, but I can't recall seeing her > > do much in the way of hand-to-hand combat. I think that is what Buffy meant > > by saying Spike is the strongest fighter they have, aside from her that is. > > Yeah, and their biggest enemy is incorporeal and insubstantial which > pretty much renders physical strength useless and Willow's powers even > more relevant. > > Willow is the single strongest asset in this fight, more so than anyone, > even Buffy herself. Except that Willow can't even touch the First magically, or Bad Things happen.

2003-03-30 18:22:28-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com>)


In article <BTR1702-C11985.21234629032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1702@ix.netcom.com says... > In article <20030329205237.27647.00000120@mb-fp.aol.com>, > nixfamily2409@aol.com (Nixfamily2409) wrote: > > > Willow may be stronger in the magic sense, but I can't recall seeing her > > do much in the way of hand-to-hand combat. I think that is what Buffy meant > > by saying Spike is the strongest fighter they have, aside from her that is. > > Yeah, and their biggest enemy is incorporeal and insubstantial which > pretty much renders physical strength useless and Willow's powers even > more relevant. > > Willow is the single strongest asset in this fight, more so than anyone, > even Buffy herself. Except that Willow can't even touch the First magically, or Bad Things happen.

2003-03-30 19:36:28-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <Y8qdneNGG64e6hqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com>, DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:BTR1702-5620FB.16460230032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > In article <300320031654437055%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample > > <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1701 > > > <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > > > > > > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > > > > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > > > > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to > death. > > > > > > > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. > > > > > > She didn't go out to fight the Turok-Han. She went out to find > > > Annabelle. > > > > Knowing that the Turok-han was out and about and Annabelle was in danger > > from it. > > That's called being a hero. Doing her job, accepting responsibility, > sacrificing her own safety for the well being of others. You have a funny > definition of idiocy. Going out to try to save Annabelle wasn't stupid. Not taking a sword along was stupid. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-03-30 19:36:28-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <Y8qdneNGG64e6hqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com>, DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:BTR1702-5620FB.16460230032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > In article <300320031654437055%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample > > <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1701 > > > <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > > > > > > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > > > > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > > > > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to > death. > > > > > > > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. > > > > > > She didn't go out to fight the Turok-Han. She went out to find > > > Annabelle. > > > > Knowing that the Turok-han was out and about and Annabelle was in danger > > from it. > > That's called being a hero. Doing her job, accepting responsibility, > sacrificing her own safety for the well being of others. You have a funny > definition of idiocy. Going out to try to save Annabelle wasn't stupid. Not taking a sword along was stupid. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-03-30 20:09:55-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


> On Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:45:02 -0500, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> > wrote: > > > > > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > > >> Shannon, what's the big deal if people think Buffy loves Spike? > > > >Because they think that it's affecting her ability to make intelligent > >decisions that impact the safety of the entire world. Giles and Wood > >believe that Buffy cares for Spike so much she isn't capable of being > >rational about him. That's why they felt justified in doing what they did > >behind her back. But they're wrong. Buffy *is* making the hard choices. > >And the choice she has made regarding Spike is that his potential ability to > >help her is greater than his potential ability to hurt her. She's the > >General, she's in charge, and that's her call to make. But no one respects > >that because they think she's wearing Spike colored glasses. > If she'd just explain to everyone why she thinks that a brainwashed vampire is a useful asset against an intangible enemy maybe they'd respect her judgements.

2003-03-30 20:09:55-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


> On Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:45:02 -0500, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> > wrote: > > > > > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > > >> Shannon, what's the big deal if people think Buffy loves Spike? > > > >Because they think that it's affecting her ability to make intelligent > >decisions that impact the safety of the entire world. Giles and Wood > >believe that Buffy cares for Spike so much she isn't capable of being > >rational about him. That's why they felt justified in doing what they did > >behind her back. But they're wrong. Buffy *is* making the hard choices. > >And the choice she has made regarding Spike is that his potential ability to > >help her is greater than his potential ability to hurt her. She's the > >General, she's in charge, and that's her call to make. But no one respects > >that because they think she's wearing Spike colored glasses. > If she'd just explain to everyone why she thinks that a brainwashed vampire is a useful asset against an intangible enemy maybe they'd respect her judgements.

2003-03-30 20:21:58-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <WUGdnTW6jojY6hqjXTWcpw@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > In article <vtSdnWBVz5n60BqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > > > > BTR1701 wrote: > > > > > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > > > > > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > >>> > > > > >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less > > > > >> powerful now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one > > > > >> else, but Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting > > > > >> skill. > > > > > > > > > > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > > > > > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > > > > > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going > > > > > back to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right > > > > > now is because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > > > > > > > > > > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters > > > > > had a contract. > > > > > > > > Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she > > > > is deeply in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, > > > > muttering, shuffling away...) > > > > > > Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, > > > ever. She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was > > > keeping him around just because of her personal feelings she would be an > absolute > > > idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they > > > are both wrong. So are you. Sorry. > > > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > Because Buffy has said repeatedly that she doesn't love Spike. Buffy > isn't an idiot, no if's, ands, or buts, about it. Oh, well. If you say no if's, ands, or buts, then it must be true, despite evidence to the contrary. > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to > > death. > > > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. > > *shrug* A miscalculation. One she's made dozens of times before and refuses to learn from her mistake. Again, pretty idiotic. > She ended up killing it with nothing but her > fists and a piece of wire, so it wasn't even that big of a > miscalculation. Well, it nearly killed her and the only reason it didn't was because The First told it not to kill her yet. Buffy didn't know that so from her perspective it could very well have been a fatal "miscalculation".

2003-03-30 20:21:58-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <WUGdnTW6jojY6hqjXTWcpw@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > In article <vtSdnWBVz5n60BqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > > > > BTR1701 wrote: > > > > > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > > > > > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > > > > >>> > > > > >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less > > > > >> powerful now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one > > > > >> else, but Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting > > > > >> skill. > > > > > > > > > > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > > > > > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > > > > > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going > > > > > back to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right > > > > > now is because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > > > > > > > > > > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters > > > > > had a contract. > > > > > > > > Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she > > > > is deeply in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, > > > > muttering, shuffling away...) > > > > > > Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, > > > ever. She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was > > > keeping him around just because of her personal feelings she would be an > absolute > > > idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they > > > are both wrong. So are you. Sorry. > > > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > Because Buffy has said repeatedly that she doesn't love Spike. Buffy > isn't an idiot, no if's, ands, or buts, about it. Oh, well. If you say no if's, ands, or buts, then it must be true, despite evidence to the contrary. > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even knowing > > how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to > > death. > > > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. > > *shrug* A miscalculation. One she's made dozens of times before and refuses to learn from her mistake. Again, pretty idiotic. > She ended up killing it with nothing but her > fists and a piece of wire, so it wasn't even that big of a > miscalculation. Well, it nearly killed her and the only reason it didn't was because The First told it not to kill her yet. Buffy didn't know that so from her perspective it could very well have been a fatal "miscalculation".

2003-03-30 20:25:51-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <Y8qdneNGG64e6hqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:BTR1702-5620FB.16460230032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > In article <300320031654437055%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample > > <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, > > > BTR1701 > > > <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > > > > > > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > > > > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even > > > > knowing how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. > > > > > > > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. > > > > > > She didn't go out to fight the Turok-Han. She went out to find > > > Annabelle. > > > > Knowing that the Turok-han was out and about and Annabelle was in > > danger from it. > > That's called being a hero. No, it's called being stupid. Throwing yourself into danger with virtually no ability to fight back effectively is moronic, not heroic. Doing her job, accepting responsibility, > sacrificing her own safety for the well being of others. Her job was to protect those girls. Getting herself killed needlessly an not even arming herself with something as simple as an axe from that weapons chest of hers would not only throw her own life away, it would do nothing to protect the girl she was looking for and would leave all the others open to attack as well. if The First hadn't told the Turok-han to leave Buffy for last, her "heroics" would have resulted in the deaths of everyone involved. You may call that heroic but I called it plain dumb. > You have a funny definition of idiocy. And you have an even funnier definition of heroism.

2003-03-30 20:25:51-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <Y8qdneNGG64e6hqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:BTR1702-5620FB.16460230032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com... > > In article <300320031654437055%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample > > <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <BTR1702-59610A.15163330032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, > > > BTR1701 > > > <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > How do you know they're wrong? Maybe she is an idiot. > > > > > > > > When that potential Annabelle ran away, she went out to fight the > > > > Turok-han completely unarmed, with nothing but her fists, even > > > > knowing how strong it was and what it could do. And it beat her nearly to death. > > > > > > > > Seems pretty idiotic to me. > > > > > > She didn't go out to fight the Turok-Han. She went out to find > > > Annabelle. > > > > Knowing that the Turok-han was out and about and Annabelle was in > > danger from it. > > That's called being a hero. No, it's called being stupid. Throwing yourself into danger with virtually no ability to fight back effectively is moronic, not heroic. Doing her job, accepting responsibility, > sacrificing her own safety for the well being of others. Her job was to protect those girls. Getting herself killed needlessly an not even arming herself with something as simple as an axe from that weapons chest of hers would not only throw her own life away, it would do nothing to protect the girl she was looking for and would leave all the others open to attack as well. if The First hadn't told the Turok-han to leave Buffy for last, her "heroics" would have resulted in the deaths of everyone involved. You may call that heroic but I called it plain dumb. > You have a funny definition of idiocy. And you have an even funnier definition of heroism.

2003-03-30 20:30:58+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030330110630.28690.00000138@mb-fv.aol.com... > If ME really respects Spike and wants him to be a hero or even an anti-hero > they'd better have him either make what you just said crystal clear, or have > him give Wood the coat. > > I don't think he will tho. I think they want semi-evil, semi-good Spike. If > he keeps the coat, the bleached hair and acts like a jerk from time to time, > he's still semi evil and the fans will still want to watch him. And he won't be > a threat to their precious little Angel. Clearly the writer's conscious decision to differentiate Spike from Angel has affected Spike's storyline to a large degree. The writers didn't want Spike to become Angel: The Sequel, so they have cast neoSpike in a morally ambiguous light, though I firmly believe in the end Spike will come out looking like a good guy(even if he's not quite a straight arrow like Angel). As for neoSpike's look, I think it's clear that ME was afraid to alter Spike's visual look that many have come to know and is a large part of the character itself. TV is a visual medium where even on regular dramas fan outbursts have occurred over characters just changing their hair style(ala Felicity). There is also merchandising to consider(which granted isn't an in story reason but hey it exists). In retrospect they probably should've had a scene where Wood offers the coat to Spike, but Fury said that the episode had already been chopped by fifteen minutes to fit it into one episode.

2003-03-30 20:30:58+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030330110630.28690.00000138@mb-fv.aol.com... > If ME really respects Spike and wants him to be a hero or even an anti-hero > they'd better have him either make what you just said crystal clear, or have > him give Wood the coat. > > I don't think he will tho. I think they want semi-evil, semi-good Spike. If > he keeps the coat, the bleached hair and acts like a jerk from time to time, > he's still semi evil and the fans will still want to watch him. And he won't be > a threat to their precious little Angel. Clearly the writer's conscious decision to differentiate Spike from Angel has affected Spike's storyline to a large degree. The writers didn't want Spike to become Angel: The Sequel, so they have cast neoSpike in a morally ambiguous light, though I firmly believe in the end Spike will come out looking like a good guy(even if he's not quite a straight arrow like Angel). As for neoSpike's look, I think it's clear that ME was afraid to alter Spike's visual look that many have come to know and is a large part of the character itself. TV is a visual medium where even on regular dramas fan outbursts have occurred over characters just changing their hair style(ala Felicity). There is also merchandising to consider(which granted isn't an in story reason but hey it exists). In retrospect they probably should've had a scene where Wood offers the coat to Spike, but Fury said that the episode had already been chopped by fifteen minutes to fit it into one episode.

2003-03-30 20:31:41-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <MPG.18f14622ff6b7ef0989772@news.direcpc.com>, David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > In article <BTR1702-C11985.21234629032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, > BTR1702@ix.netcom.com says... > > In article <20030329205237.27647.00000120@mb-fp.aol.com>, > > nixfamily2409@aol.com (Nixfamily2409) wrote: > > > > > Willow may be stronger in the magic sense, but I can't recall seeing > > > her do much in the way of hand-to-hand combat. I think that is what > > > Buffy meant > > > by saying Spike is the strongest fighter they have, aside from her > > > that is. > > > > Yeah, and their biggest enemy is incorporeal and insubstantial which > > pretty much renders physical strength useless and Willow's powers even > > more relevant. > > > > Willow is the single strongest asset in this fight, more so than > > anyone, even Buffy herself. > > Except that Willow can't even touch the First magically, or Bad Things > happen For now. When she tried to "touch" Cordelia magickally, bad things happened to her also. But she worked around it and while she may not have defeated Cordelia, Willow's powers were enough to weaken her. At worst it was a draw. I'm confident if Willow works at it, her magick could help against The First and even if it can't, she sure as hell could take out a dozen Bringers with the wave of her hand should they attack en masse again. The only reason her barrier against the Turok-han failed is because it was supposed in order to set up the big fight at the contruction site. If she hadn't sabotaged her own spell to make that happen, they probably could have sat in the living room and watched TV all night while that thing howled and raged helplessly on the other side.

2003-03-30 20:31:41-06:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <MPG.18f14622ff6b7ef0989772@news.direcpc.com>, David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > In article <BTR1702-C11985.21234629032003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, > BTR1702@ix.netcom.com says... > > In article <20030329205237.27647.00000120@mb-fp.aol.com>, > > nixfamily2409@aol.com (Nixfamily2409) wrote: > > > > > Willow may be stronger in the magic sense, but I can't recall seeing > > > her do much in the way of hand-to-hand combat. I think that is what > > > Buffy meant > > > by saying Spike is the strongest fighter they have, aside from her > > > that is. > > > > Yeah, and their biggest enemy is incorporeal and insubstantial which > > pretty much renders physical strength useless and Willow's powers even > > more relevant. > > > > Willow is the single strongest asset in this fight, more so than > > anyone, even Buffy herself. > > Except that Willow can't even touch the First magically, or Bad Things > happen For now. When she tried to "touch" Cordelia magickally, bad things happened to her also. But she worked around it and while she may not have defeated Cordelia, Willow's powers were enough to weaken her. At worst it was a draw. I'm confident if Willow works at it, her magick could help against The First and even if it can't, she sure as hell could take out a dozen Bringers with the wave of her hand should they attack en masse again. The only reason her barrier against the Turok-han failed is because it was supposed in order to set up the big fight at the contruction site. If she hadn't sabotaged her own spell to make that happen, they probably could have sat in the living room and watched TV all night while that thing howled and raged helplessly on the other side.

2003-03-30 20:45:02-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030330193430.16775.00000157@mb-cd.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode > >From: "DarkMagic" slnospambilan@comcast.net > >Date: 3/30/2003 12:02 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <vtSdnWBVz5n60BqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com> > > > > > >"nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > >> BTR1701 wrote: > >> > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > >> > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >> > > >Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love >him. Doesn't, won't, ever. > > Shannon, what's the big deal if people think Buffy loves Spike? Because they think that it's affecting her ability to make intelligent decisions that impact the safety of the entire world. Giles and Wood believe that Buffy cares for Spike so much she isn't capable of being rational about him. That's why they felt justified in doing what they did behind her back. But they're wrong. Buffy *is* making the hard choices. And the choice she has made regarding Spike is that his potential ability to help her is greater than his potential ability to hurt her. She's the General, she's in charge, and that's her call to make. But no one respects that because they think she's wearing Spike colored glasses. If you're > right, you will be vindicated after Ep 22 and then you can point and say neener > neener. You know that's not what I'm all about. (okay maybe a little) No, really, it's not. I just think it's important that everyone realizes that Buffy has grown, and changed, a lot over the last seven seasons. She knows what she's doing, she knows the risks, and she deserves some respect and some acknowledgement. The people who should be the most trusting and supportive of her right now, aren't. And it's because of her relationship with Spike. If she is really basing all of these potentially world ending, or world saving decisions, on her feelings for Spike she's a complete idiot and "the world is doomed." In the meantime, why not just let people have their opinions? Your > emotion on the subject is making me wonder if deep inside you're worried that > she does love Spike. > I'm not worried that she loves Spike. When she's done being the Slayer and saving the world for the last time she can ride off into the moon rise with whatever blood sucker strikes her fancy. As you know I would prefer she be with a human, but it looks like Whedon is going to end it with Buffy on her own. Which is okay. People are entitled to their opinion, but when they think that the reason Buffy didn't send Spike out of town was because she just can't bear to let him go I have to speak up and say "Buffy just isn't that big of a fool. For love, or any other reason." > >She cares about him, > > Caring is a form of love. It's not always romantic love, but it's still love. Yes, but it's not blinding. Buffy has to have an intelligent reason for risking what she has with Spike aside from her personal feelings. If she were truly in love with him, I would doubt that. > She loves Spike at least as much as she loves Xander and Willow, I'd say. > I wouldn't, but that's okay. > she needs his help, period. If Buffy was keeping him > >around just because of her personal feelings she would be an absolute idiot. > >Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they are both > >wrong. So are you. Sorry. > > > > I don't think Wood is implying any such thing. He saw an opportunity to get > revenge on Spike and he took it. His speech to Giles was there just to > manipulate him into cooperating. > It wasn't just about revenge. Spike is still dangerous, Wood knows it. He's trying to warn Buffy, but she doesn't need the warning. And Giles is not a man to be easily manipulated. He was on the same page as Wood all along. Spike is a serious threat to all of them and Spike doesn't care enough about that to even try fixing the problem. > > -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here." >

2003-03-30 20:45:02-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030330193430.16775.00000157@mb-cd.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode > >From: "DarkMagic" slnospambilan@comcast.net > >Date: 3/30/2003 12:02 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <vtSdnWBVz5n60BqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com> > > > > > >"nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > >> BTR1701 wrote: > >> > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > >> > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >> > > >Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love >him. Doesn't, won't, ever. > > Shannon, what's the big deal if people think Buffy loves Spike? Because they think that it's affecting her ability to make intelligent decisions that impact the safety of the entire world. Giles and Wood believe that Buffy cares for Spike so much she isn't capable of being rational about him. That's why they felt justified in doing what they did behind her back. But they're wrong. Buffy *is* making the hard choices. And the choice she has made regarding Spike is that his potential ability to help her is greater than his potential ability to hurt her. She's the General, she's in charge, and that's her call to make. But no one respects that because they think she's wearing Spike colored glasses. If you're > right, you will be vindicated after Ep 22 and then you can point and say neener > neener. You know that's not what I'm all about. (okay maybe a little) No, really, it's not. I just think it's important that everyone realizes that Buffy has grown, and changed, a lot over the last seven seasons. She knows what she's doing, she knows the risks, and she deserves some respect and some acknowledgement. The people who should be the most trusting and supportive of her right now, aren't. And it's because of her relationship with Spike. If she is really basing all of these potentially world ending, or world saving decisions, on her feelings for Spike she's a complete idiot and "the world is doomed." In the meantime, why not just let people have their opinions? Your > emotion on the subject is making me wonder if deep inside you're worried that > she does love Spike. > I'm not worried that she loves Spike. When she's done being the Slayer and saving the world for the last time she can ride off into the moon rise with whatever blood sucker strikes her fancy. As you know I would prefer she be with a human, but it looks like Whedon is going to end it with Buffy on her own. Which is okay. People are entitled to their opinion, but when they think that the reason Buffy didn't send Spike out of town was because she just can't bear to let him go I have to speak up and say "Buffy just isn't that big of a fool. For love, or any other reason." > >She cares about him, > > Caring is a form of love. It's not always romantic love, but it's still love. Yes, but it's not blinding. Buffy has to have an intelligent reason for risking what she has with Spike aside from her personal feelings. If she were truly in love with him, I would doubt that. > She loves Spike at least as much as she loves Xander and Willow, I'd say. > I wouldn't, but that's okay. > she needs his help, period. If Buffy was keeping him > >around just because of her personal feelings she would be an absolute idiot. > >Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they are both > >wrong. So are you. Sorry. > > > > I don't think Wood is implying any such thing. He saw an opportunity to get > revenge on Spike and he took it. His speech to Giles was there just to > manipulate him into cooperating. > It wasn't just about revenge. Spike is still dangerous, Wood knows it. He's trying to warn Buffy, but she doesn't need the warning. And Giles is not a man to be easily manipulated. He was on the same page as Wood all along. Spike is a serious threat to all of them and Spike doesn't care enough about that to even try fixing the problem. > > -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here." >

2003-03-30 20:53:03-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:45:02 -0500, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >> Shannon, what's the big deal if people think Buffy loves Spike? > >Because they think that it's affecting her ability to make intelligent >decisions that impact the safety of the entire world. Giles and Wood >believe that Buffy cares for Spike so much she isn't capable of being >rational about him. That's why they felt justified in doing what they did >behind her back. But they're wrong. Buffy *is* making the hard choices. >And the choice she has made regarding Spike is that his potential ability to >help her is greater than his potential ability to hurt her. She's the >General, she's in charge, and that's her call to make. But no one respects >that because they think she's wearing Spike colored glasses. I don't think Buffy loves Spike. I just think she's stupid and came back wrong. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-30 20:53:03-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:45:02 -0500, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >> Shannon, what's the big deal if people think Buffy loves Spike? > >Because they think that it's affecting her ability to make intelligent >decisions that impact the safety of the entire world. Giles and Wood >believe that Buffy cares for Spike so much she isn't capable of being >rational about him. That's why they felt justified in doing what they did >behind her back. But they're wrong. Buffy *is* making the hard choices. >And the choice she has made regarding Spike is that his potential ability to >help her is greater than his potential ability to hurt her. She's the >General, she's in charge, and that's her call to make. But no one respects >that because they think she's wearing Spike colored glasses. I don't think Buffy loves Spike. I just think she's stupid and came back wrong. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-30 21:27:36+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Aethelrede <aethelrede@worldnet.att.net>)


Growltiger wrote in message ... >Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com wrote >in article <m33cl5d3hv.fsf@panix.com>... >> arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) writes: >> >> > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: >> > >> > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by >> > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must >> > have had a child at age 12). >> >> It's not unheard of. >> >[elided] > >Robin was four years old at the time of his mother's death. You have to wonder if people listen to the words or if they're on the phone all the time.

2003-03-30 21:27:36+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Aethelrede <aethelrede@worldnet.att.net>)


Growltiger wrote in message ... >Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com wrote >in article <m33cl5d3hv.fsf@panix.com>... >> arromdee@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) writes: >> >> > Okay, this episode wasn't that bad, but I still have a few problems with it: >> > >> > -- Having Wood be old enough to remember watching his mother get killed by >> > Spike is pushing it when it comes to ages. (If he's 6 and she's 18, she must >> > have had a child at age 12). >> >> It's not unheard of. >> >[elided] > >Robin was four years old at the time of his mother's death. You have to wonder if people listen to the words or if they're on the phone all the time.

2003-03-30 22:25:45-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 31 Mar 2003 03:19:05 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >Shannon wrote: > >>And Giles is >>not a man to be easily manipulated. > >The real Giles isn't. I dunno about this dude. That's the real Giles but Buffy came back wrong. Her aura is screwing everyone else up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-30 22:25:45-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 31 Mar 2003 03:19:05 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >Shannon wrote: > >>And Giles is >>not a man to be easily manipulated. > >The real Giles isn't. I dunno about this dude. That's the real Giles but Buffy came back wrong. Her aura is screwing everyone else up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-31 00:34:30+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode >From: "DarkMagic" slnospambilan@comcast.net >Date: 3/30/2003 12:02 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <vtSdnWBVz5n60BqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com> > > >"nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... >> BTR1701 wrote: >> > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" >> > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >> > >> >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message >> > >> >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >> >>> >> >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now >> >> that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but >> >> Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. >> > >> > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is >> > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to >> > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back >> > to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is >> > because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. >> > >> > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters >> > had a contract. >> >> Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is >deeply >> in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, muttering, >> shuffling away...) > >Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love >him. Doesn't, won't, ever. Shannon, what's the big deal if people think Buffy loves Spike? If you're right, you will be vindicated after Ep 22 and then you can point and say neener neener. In the meantime, why not just let people have their opinions? Your emotion on the subject is making me wonder if deep inside you're worried that she does love Spike. I think Buffy loves him, but I don't think he's The One. Also, I don't think either Spike or Angel is going to get the girl, even if Angel is The One. The mutual butt-kicking is imminent. >She cares about him, Caring is a form of love. It's not always romantic love, but it's still love. She loves Spike at least as much as she loves Xander and Willow, I'd say. she needs his help, period. If Buffy was keeping him >around just because of her personal feelings she would be an absolute idiot. >Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they are both >wrong. So are you. Sorry. > I don't think Wood is implying any such thing. He saw an opportunity to get revenge on Spike and he took it. His speech to Giles was there just to manipulate him into cooperating. I kinda like Wood. Of all the characters he at least is honest with himself about who he is and what he wants. He sets a goal and goes for it. He's not wishy washy or a hypocrite like the Scoobies, notGiles, and now Spike himself. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-31 00:34:30+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode >From: "DarkMagic" slnospambilan@comcast.net >Date: 3/30/2003 12:02 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <vtSdnWBVz5n60BqjXTWcqQ@comcast.com> > > >"nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... >> BTR1701 wrote: >> > In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" >> > <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >> > >> >> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message >> > >> >>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >> >>> >> >> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful now >> >> that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one else, but >> >> Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or fighting skill. >> > >> > Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is >> > stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to >> > fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back >> > to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now is >> > because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. >> > >> > Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James Marsters >> > had a contract. >> >> Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is >deeply >> in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking head, muttering, >> shuffling away...) > >Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love >him. Doesn't, won't, ever. Shannon, what's the big deal if people think Buffy loves Spike? If you're right, you will be vindicated after Ep 22 and then you can point and say neener neener. In the meantime, why not just let people have their opinions? Your emotion on the subject is making me wonder if deep inside you're worried that she does love Spike. I think Buffy loves him, but I don't think he's The One. Also, I don't think either Spike or Angel is going to get the girl, even if Angel is The One. The mutual butt-kicking is imminent. >She cares about him, Caring is a form of love. It's not always romantic love, but it's still love. She loves Spike at least as much as she loves Xander and Willow, I'd say. she needs his help, period. If Buffy was keeping him >around just because of her personal feelings she would be an absolute idiot. >Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she is, and they are both >wrong. So are you. Sorry. > I don't think Wood is implying any such thing. He saw an opportunity to get revenge on Spike and he took it. His speech to Giles was there just to manipulate him into cooperating. I kinda like Wood. Of all the characters he at least is honest with himself about who he is and what he wants. He sets a goal and goes for it. He's not wishy washy or a hypocrite like the Scoobies, notGiles, and now Spike himself. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-31 03:19:05+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Shannon wrote: >And Giles is >not a man to be easily manipulated. The real Giles isn't. I dunno about this dude. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-31 03:19:05+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Shannon wrote: >And Giles is >not a man to be easily manipulated. The real Giles isn't. I dunno about this dude. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-31 03:24:45+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode >From: "Chris Zabel" alephnull@earthlink.net >Date: 3/30/2003 12:30 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <6uIha.70$4P1.9797@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030330110630.28690.00000138@mb-fv.aol.com... >> If ME really respects Spike and wants him to be a hero or even an >anti-hero >> they'd better have him either make what you just said crystal clear, or >have >> him give Wood the coat. >> >> I don't think he will tho. I think they want semi-evil, semi-good Spike. >If >> he keeps the coat, the bleached hair and acts like a jerk from time to >time, >> he's still semi evil and the fans will still want to watch him. And he >won't be >> a threat to their precious little Angel. > > >Clearly the writer's conscious decision to >differentiate Spike from Angel The irony is, they haven't. >has affected Spike's storyline to a large >degree. The writers didn't want >Spike to become Angel: The Sequel, And yet he did. >so they have cast neoSpike in a morally >ambiguous light, If Angel is not morally ambiguous I am a McDonald's Freedom Fry. >though I firmly believe in the end Spike will come out >looking like a good guy(even if he's not >quite a straight arrow like Angel). Angel ain't no straight arrow. He's Batman, not Superman. > As for neoSpike's look, I think it's clear that ME was afraid to >alter Spike's visual look that many have come to know and is a large part of >the character itself. Chickens. James Marsters gets a little older every year. His visual look is going to change, and as he gets older, the bleached hair and college punk clothes are going to look sillier and sillier. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-31 03:24:45+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Mar 25 episode >From: "Chris Zabel" alephnull@earthlink.net >Date: 3/30/2003 12:30 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <6uIha.70$4P1.9797@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030330110630.28690.00000138@mb-fv.aol.com... >> If ME really respects Spike and wants him to be a hero or even an >anti-hero >> they'd better have him either make what you just said crystal clear, or >have >> him give Wood the coat. >> >> I don't think he will tho. I think they want semi-evil, semi-good Spike. >If >> he keeps the coat, the bleached hair and acts like a jerk from time to >time, >> he's still semi evil and the fans will still want to watch him. And he >won't be >> a threat to their precious little Angel. > > >Clearly the writer's conscious decision to >differentiate Spike from Angel The irony is, they haven't. >has affected Spike's storyline to a large >degree. The writers didn't want >Spike to become Angel: The Sequel, And yet he did. >so they have cast neoSpike in a morally >ambiguous light, If Angel is not morally ambiguous I am a McDonald's Freedom Fry. >though I firmly believe in the end Spike will come out >looking like a good guy(even if he's not >quite a straight arrow like Angel). Angel ain't no straight arrow. He's Batman, not Superman. > As for neoSpike's look, I think it's clear that ME was afraid to >alter Spike's visual look that many have come to know and is a large part of >the character itself. Chickens. James Marsters gets a little older every year. His visual look is going to change, and as he gets older, the bleached hair and college punk clothes are going to look sillier and sillier. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-31 03:44:55+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Kelzmelzer <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030330222445.16068.00000237@mb-ca.aol.com... > > > > Angel ain't no straight arrow. He's Batman, not Superman. > He's not Batman. He's like Azrael, with the killing and whatnot. > > As for neoSpike's look, I think it's clear that ME was afraid to > >alter Spike's visual look that many have come to know and is a large part of > >the character itself. > > Chickens. > > James Marsters gets a little older every year. His visual look is going to > change, and as he gets older, the bleached hair and college punk clothes are > going to look sillier and sillier. > He could start wearing his Randy Giles suit!

2003-03-31 03:44:55+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Kelzmelzer <anonymous_black_mage@mysidia.gov>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030330222445.16068.00000237@mb-ca.aol.com... > > > > Angel ain't no straight arrow. He's Batman, not Superman. > He's not Batman. He's like Azrael, with the killing and whatnot. > > As for neoSpike's look, I think it's clear that ME was afraid to > >alter Spike's visual look that many have come to know and is a large part of > >the character itself. > > Chickens. > > James Marsters gets a little older every year. His visual look is going to > change, and as he gets older, the bleached hair and college punk clothes are > going to look sillier and sillier. > He could start wearing his Randy Giles suit!

2003-03-31 04:47:03+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (JAndJ <a@b.c>)


DarkMagic wrote in message ... > >> >It wasn't just about revenge. Spike is still dangerous, Wood knows it. >He's trying to warn Buffy, but she doesn't need the warning. And Giles is >not a man to be easily manipulated. He was on the same page as Wood all >along. Spike is a serious threat to all of them and Spike doesn't care >enough about that to even try fixing the problem. > It absolutely was about revenge, Wood said as much. He mentioned something about waiting until he right time at the beginning of the show. He also told Spike that he was Nikki's son before he tried to kill him. The fact that Spike has the potential to be evil just gave him an excuse. And yes, you're right that Spike with trigger was dangerous, Giles saw it. I think Buffy knew it too but she felt Souly Spike's worth out weighs that danger. As to her feelings for him, that will surely be a topic of upcoming eps (can't wait!!).

2003-03-31 04:47:03+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (JAndJ <a@b.c>)


DarkMagic wrote in message ... > >> >It wasn't just about revenge. Spike is still dangerous, Wood knows it. >He's trying to warn Buffy, but she doesn't need the warning. And Giles is >not a man to be easily manipulated. He was on the same page as Wood all >along. Spike is a serious threat to all of them and Spike doesn't care >enough about that to even try fixing the problem. > It absolutely was about revenge, Wood said as much. He mentioned something about waiting until he right time at the beginning of the show. He also told Spike that he was Nikki's son before he tried to kill him. The fact that Spike has the potential to be evil just gave him an excuse. And yes, you're right that Spike with trigger was dangerous, Giles saw it. I think Buffy knew it too but she felt Souly Spike's worth out weighs that danger. As to her feelings for him, that will surely be a topic of upcoming eps (can't wait!!).

2003-03-31 04:49:24+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (JAndJ <a@b.c>)


BTR1701 wrote in message ... >In article <LoFha.75573$M7.1618790@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, >Sure she does. She just has to find out how to counter The First's >magick. She did it with Cordelia recently when Cordelia "restrained" her >the same way The First did. > >And the way the two storylines seem to be converging, I wouldn't be >surprised if Cordelia isn't The First or allied with the The First in >some way. I totally agree especially considering Angel's expected appearance on Buffy's final ep.

2003-03-31 04:49:24+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (JAndJ <a@b.c>)


BTR1701 wrote in message ... >In article <LoFha.75573$M7.1618790@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, >Sure she does. She just has to find out how to counter The First's >magick. She did it with Cordelia recently when Cordelia "restrained" her >the same way The First did. > >And the way the two storylines seem to be converging, I wouldn't be >surprised if Cordelia isn't The First or allied with the The First in >some way. I totally agree especially considering Angel's expected appearance on Buffy's final ep.

2003-03-31 11:03:40-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:ao7f8vcva30nta4mclhu1kt6d2t2stb35f@4ax.com... > On Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:45:02 -0500, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> > wrote: > > > > > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > > >> Shannon, what's the big deal if people think Buffy loves Spike? > > > >Because they think that it's affecting her ability to make intelligent > >decisions that impact the safety of the entire world. Giles and Wood > >believe that Buffy cares for Spike so much she isn't capable of being > >rational about him. That's why they felt justified in doing what they did > >behind her back. But they're wrong. Buffy *is* making the hard choices. > >And the choice she has made regarding Spike is that his potential ability to > >help her is greater than his potential ability to hurt her. She's the > >General, she's in charge, and that's her call to make. But no one respects > >that because they think she's wearing Spike colored glasses. > > I don't think Buffy loves Spike. I just think she's stupid and came back > wrong. :) > > I don't think she's stupid and it's way past a little too late to show that she has more than deep mollecular tan. Although, that would have been more interesting than the story we actually got. > > -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-31 11:03:40-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:ao7f8vcva30nta4mclhu1kt6d2t2stb35f@4ax.com... > On Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:45:02 -0500, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> > wrote: > > > > > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > > >> Shannon, what's the big deal if people think Buffy loves Spike? > > > >Because they think that it's affecting her ability to make intelligent > >decisions that impact the safety of the entire world. Giles and Wood > >believe that Buffy cares for Spike so much she isn't capable of being > >rational about him. That's why they felt justified in doing what they did > >behind her back. But they're wrong. Buffy *is* making the hard choices. > >And the choice she has made regarding Spike is that his potential ability to > >help her is greater than his potential ability to hurt her. She's the > >General, she's in charge, and that's her call to make. But no one respects > >that because they think she's wearing Spike colored glasses. > > I don't think Buffy loves Spike. I just think she's stupid and came back > wrong. :) > > I don't think she's stupid and it's way past a little too late to show that she has more than deep mollecular tan. Although, that would have been more interesting than the story we actually got. > > -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-31 11:09:21-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"JAndJ" <a@b.c> wrote in message news:bLPha.313527$sf5.294463@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... > > DarkMagic wrote in message ... > > > >> > >It wasn't just about revenge. Spike is still dangerous, Wood knows it. > >He's trying to warn Buffy, but she doesn't need the warning. And Giles is > >not a man to be easily manipulated. He was on the same page as Wood all > >along. Spike is a serious threat to all of them and Spike doesn't care > >enough about that to even try fixing the problem. > > > > > > It absolutely was about revenge, Wood said as much. I said it wasn't *just* about revenge. And I am not defending Wood's actions under any circumstances. Although, I certainly empathize with him and I think his actions are far more understandable than Spike's. > And yes, you're right that Spike with trigger was dangerous, Giles saw it. > I think Buffy knew it too but she felt Souly Spike's worth out weighs that > danger. I think you're right. She's taking a calculated risk. As to her feelings for him, that will surely be a topic of upcoming > eps (can't wait!!). > Don't bet on it. ME hates to resolve anything one way or another. > -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-31 11:09:21-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"JAndJ" <a@b.c> wrote in message news:bLPha.313527$sf5.294463@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... > > DarkMagic wrote in message ... > > > >> > >It wasn't just about revenge. Spike is still dangerous, Wood knows it. > >He's trying to warn Buffy, but she doesn't need the warning. And Giles is > >not a man to be easily manipulated. He was on the same page as Wood all > >along. Spike is a serious threat to all of them and Spike doesn't care > >enough about that to even try fixing the problem. > > > > > > It absolutely was about revenge, Wood said as much. I said it wasn't *just* about revenge. And I am not defending Wood's actions under any circumstances. Although, I certainly empathize with him and I think his actions are far more understandable than Spike's. > And yes, you're right that Spike with trigger was dangerous, Giles saw it. > I think Buffy knew it too but she felt Souly Spike's worth out weighs that > danger. I think you're right. She's taking a calculated risk. As to her feelings for him, that will surely be a topic of upcoming > eps (can't wait!!). > Don't bet on it. ME hates to resolve anything one way or another. > -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here."

2003-03-31 11:12:38-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:5FWha.5511$Xf4.3456@twister.nyc.rr.com... > DarkMagic wrote: > > "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > >> BTR1701 wrote: > >>> In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > >>> <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >>> > >>>> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > >>> > >>>>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > >>>>> > >>>> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful > >>>> now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one > >>>> else, but Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or > >>>> fighting skill. > >>> > >>> Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > >>> stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > >>> fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back > >>> to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now > >>> is because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > >>> > >>> Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James > >>> Marsters had a contract. > >> > >> Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is > >> deeply in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking > >> head, muttering, shuffling away...) > > > > Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, > > ever. She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was > > keeping him around just because of her personal feelings she would be > > an absolute idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she > > is, and they are both wrong. So are you. Sorry. > > Oh for crying out loud yourself! I was sort of kidding when I wrote that! > Look at the "Sheesh," the parenthetical description -- did that miss you? I > was being funny. Look -- I would like -- no, love -- to think that Buffy > loves Spike. I really would. I am not sure she does, though. So, that > post was meant ironically -- it was meant as a bit of levity. Actually, I don't really care if she does, or doesn't. But if Buffy did love Spike and she said so now it would like exactly what Wood and Giles thought. Her romantic feelings for him are getting in the way of her common sense. And I don't want Buffy to go out looking like a pathetic, Spike-stuck, twit. It's bad enough that ME destroyed Cordelia with that garbage. What I meant > was that I have no idea why she keeps him around, but I would so like to > believe she loves him that I am going to pretend that is the obvious > conclusion. Geez! This whole exchange reminds me of my brother's > girlfriend. She asked me if I believed in god and I said, "On Tuesdays." > She looked perplexed and said, "What happens on Tuesdays?" My brother > gently translated, telling her that meant sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, > and I am just not sure. I hear you. -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here." >

2003-03-31 11:12:38-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:5FWha.5511$Xf4.3456@twister.nyc.rr.com... > DarkMagic wrote: > > "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... > >> BTR1701 wrote: > >>> In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" > >>> <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > >>> > >>>> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message > >>> > >>>>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. > >>>>> > >>>> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful > >>>> now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one > >>>> else, but Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or > >>>> fighting skill. > >>> > >>> Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is > >>> stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to > >>> fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back > >>> to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now > >>> is because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. > >>> > >>> Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James > >>> Marsters had a contract. > >> > >> Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is > >> deeply in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking > >> head, muttering, shuffling away...) > > > > Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, > > ever. She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was > > keeping him around just because of her personal feelings she would be > > an absolute idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she > > is, and they are both wrong. So are you. Sorry. > > Oh for crying out loud yourself! I was sort of kidding when I wrote that! > Look at the "Sheesh," the parenthetical description -- did that miss you? I > was being funny. Look -- I would like -- no, love -- to think that Buffy > loves Spike. I really would. I am not sure she does, though. So, that > post was meant ironically -- it was meant as a bit of levity. Actually, I don't really care if she does, or doesn't. But if Buffy did love Spike and she said so now it would like exactly what Wood and Giles thought. Her romantic feelings for him are getting in the way of her common sense. And I don't want Buffy to go out looking like a pathetic, Spike-stuck, twit. It's bad enough that ME destroyed Cordelia with that garbage. What I meant > was that I have no idea why she keeps him around, but I would so like to > believe she loves him that I am going to pretend that is the obvious > conclusion. Geez! This whole exchange reminds me of my brother's > girlfriend. She asked me if I believed in god and I said, "On Tuesdays." > She looked perplexed and said, "What happens on Tuesdays?" My brother > gently translated, telling her that meant sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, > and I am just not sure. I hear you. -- Shannon Cordelia: "Angel is only happy when he's fighting evil. Let's drum up a little!" Doyle: "I don't know why we're looking for evil when we got you here." >

2003-03-31 11:19:41-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:03:40 -0500, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > >"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>. That's why they felt justified in doing what they >did >> >behind her back. But they're wrong. Buffy *is* making the hard choices. >> >And the choice she has made regarding Spike is that his potential ability >to >> >help her is greater than his potential ability to hurt her. She's the >> >General, she's in charge, and that's her call to make. But no one >respects >> >that because they think she's wearing Spike colored glasses. >> >> I don't think Buffy loves Spike. I just think she's stupid and came back >> wrong. :) >> >> >I don't think she's stupid and it's way past a little too late to show that >she has more than deep mollecular tan. Although, that would have been more >interesting than the story we actually got. Oh, come on. Joss is God. You don't think he'd just leave something like "Buffy came back wrong" hanging or explain it away by something that lame do you? :) There just has to be more to it then that and it stands to reason it ties in with why the First is doing this now. Mark my words. Buffy is wrong, wrongity wrongo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-31 11:19:41-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:03:40 -0500, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > > >"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>. That's why they felt justified in doing what they >did >> >behind her back. But they're wrong. Buffy *is* making the hard choices. >> >And the choice she has made regarding Spike is that his potential ability >to >> >help her is greater than his potential ability to hurt her. She's the >> >General, she's in charge, and that's her call to make. But no one >respects >> >that because they think she's wearing Spike colored glasses. >> >> I don't think Buffy loves Spike. I just think she's stupid and came back >> wrong. :) >> >> >I don't think she's stupid and it's way past a little too late to show that >she has more than deep mollecular tan. Although, that would have been more >interesting than the story we actually got. Oh, come on. Joss is God. You don't think he'd just leave something like "Buffy came back wrong" hanging or explain it away by something that lame do you? :) There just has to be more to it then that and it stands to reason it ties in with why the First is doing this now. Mark my words. Buffy is wrong, wrongity wrongo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-31 12:38:25+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (nimue <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com>)


DarkMagic wrote: > "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... >> BTR1701 wrote: >>> In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" >>> <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >>> >>>> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message >>> >>>>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >>>>> >>>> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful >>>> now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one >>>> else, but Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or >>>> fighting skill. >>> >>> Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is >>> stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to >>> fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back >>> to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now >>> is because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. >>> >>> Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James >>> Marsters had a contract. >> >> Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is >> deeply in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking >> head, muttering, shuffling away...) > > Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, > ever. She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was > keeping him around just because of her personal feelings she would be > an absolute idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she > is, and they are both wrong. So are you. Sorry. Oh for crying out loud yourself! I was sort of kidding when I wrote that! Look at the "Sheesh," the parenthetical description -- did that miss you? I was being funny. Look -- I would like -- no, love -- to think that Buffy loves Spike. I really would. I am not sure she does, though. So, that post was meant ironically -- it was meant as a bit of levity. What I meant was that I have no idea why she keeps him around, but I would so like to believe she loves him that I am going to pretend that is the obvious conclusion. Geez! This whole exchange reminds me of my brother's girlfriend. She asked me if I believed in god and I said, "On Tuesdays." She looked perplexed and said, "What happens on Tuesdays?" My brother gently translated, telling her that meant sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, and I am just not sure. -- nimue "There is tremendous power in being gentle." LeVar Burton discussing Mr. Rogers Remember, your smile may be the only smile a child receives today.

2003-03-31 12:38:25+00:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (nimue <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com>)


DarkMagic wrote: > "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:4REha.2118$Xf4.678@twister.nyc.rr.com... >> BTR1701 wrote: >>> In article <qc-dnYrk46DFGhujXTWcpg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" >>> <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: >>> >>>> "Ken Arromdee" <arromdee@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message >>> >>>>> -- Spike is the strongest warrior we have? Give me a break. >>>>> >>>> He is. Willow is a witch, not a warrior. And much less powerful >>>> now that she's so nervous and unsure about her magic. No one >>>> else, but Buffy, even comes close to having Spike's strength or >>>> fighting skill. >>> >>> Oh, give me a break. When it comes to physical strength, Buffy is >>> stronger than Angel (and by comparison,, Spike). When it comes to >>> fighting, she's beaten Spike many times in the past, even going back >>> to when he was still evil. The only reason he's not dust right now >>> is because she kept inexplicably letting him go over and over again. >>> >>> Well, not really inexplicably. The real reason is that James >>> Marsters had a contract. >> >> Uh, no. The *real* reason she kept letting him go is because she is >> deeply in love with him -- duh! Some people! Sheesh! (Shaking >> head, muttering, shuffling away...) > > Oh, for cryin' out loud. She *doesn't* love him. Doesn't, won't, > ever. She cares about him, she needs his help, period. If Buffy was > keeping him around just because of her personal feelings she would be > an absolute idiot. Pretty much what Giles and Wood are implying she > is, and they are both wrong. So are you. Sorry. Oh for crying out loud yourself! I was sort of kidding when I wrote that! Look at the "Sheesh," the parenthetical description -- did that miss you? I was being funny. Look -- I would like -- no, love -- to think that Buffy loves Spike. I really would. I am not sure she does, though. So, that post was meant ironically -- it was meant as a bit of levity. What I meant was that I have no idea why she keeps him around, but I would so like to believe she loves him that I am going to pretend that is the obvious conclusion. Geez! This whole exchange reminds me of my brother's girlfriend. She asked me if I believed in god and I said, "On Tuesdays." She looked perplexed and said, "What happens on Tuesdays?" My brother gently translated, telling her that meant sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, and I am just not sure. -- nimue "There is tremendous power in being gentle." LeVar Burton discussing Mr. Rogers Remember, your smile may be the only smile a child receives today.

2003-04-06 06:24:11-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Juleen <REMOVEsunryse@centurytel.net>)


EGK wrote: Hand to hand combat isn't exactly all > that effective against a non corporeal villain. True, but considering all the FE's destruction has been done by the corporeal Bringers (except being able to talk someone to death), than Spike in hand to hand combat is their strongest fighter. We saw Willow while she was DW be able to kick Buffy's ass, but we don't know if that is something Willow will be able to do again without wanting to destroy the world in the process. Jul p.s. Faith doesn't count, because as far as anyone knows she's locked up and unavailable.

2003-04-06 06:24:11-05:00 - Re: Mar 25 episode - (Juleen <REMOVEsunryse@centurytel.net>)


EGK wrote: Hand to hand combat isn't exactly all > that effective against a non corporeal villain. True, but considering all the FE's destruction has been done by the corporeal Bringers (except being able to talk someone to death), than Spike in hand to hand combat is their strongest fighter. We saw Willow while she was DW be able to kick Buffy's ass, but we don't know if that is something Willow will be able to do again without wanting to destroy the world in the process. Jul p.s. Faith doesn't count, because as far as anyone knows she's locked up and unavailable.