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2003-03-25 18:17:27+00:00 - Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dunce@nomail.com)


Hi, Here's some spoiler space for you Yankees. Well, this was an interesting episode. I watched it last night and then had to watch it again today before I felt I could write about it. Part of that has to do with the huge gap between episodes. I couldn't believe it when I saw that "Storyteller" was the last ep on my tape, it seems so long ago. I'm going to try to break this post down according to the four principle players and see how much sense it makes. Here goes nothing... I posted in another thread that I thought Buffy was suffering from a form of Stockholm syndrome that made her dependant on her stalker for support and this episode supports that hypothesis. Buffy watchs Spike lose control due to the FE's trigger and sees her sister get hurt but seems to be more concerned about Spike. When Dawn gets hurt it's Willow who runs to her side with Xander, Wood, and Giles being equally concerned, if somewhat distracted by Spike's roaring. Buffy's focus never shifts from Spike. When the others take Dawn upstairs, Buffy still seems uninterested in Dawn's health. Even Spike seemed to be more concerned. And then she unchains Spike, simply because he asked her to? This is disturbing. Buffy seems to think that Spike is her strongest ally. She defends him against Giles, her oldest ally, and seems to place his importance before Willow, her most powerful ally, and Xander, her most loyal ally. Whenever anyone questions her blind faith in Spike she just rolls her eyes and mentions his new soul. Even seeing triggered Spike hurt her sister doesn't shake the rose-colered glasses from her head. Buffy seems to be perfectly willing to put everyones lives at risk just to indulge her fantasies about her boy. I thought Spike came off as pretty shallow. First he seemed unwilling to face the memories that were the source of his trigger. Then he demanded to be released from his shackles, even though he clearly knew that he was still a danger to everyone. This is in stark contrast from his behavior in "The Killer in Me", where he wants to stay chained up for everyone else's safety, supposedly. Then his little talk to Wood about their mothers seemed as if he was going "nyah nyah". He made a big point about how Wood's mother never loved him. It just seemed like a cheap shot, even for him. Then he shows no remorse for killing Nikki. Just last week on Angel we saw Angel punish himself for years because he drank from a dead man. The only real remorse we see from Spike involves his mother. We never see him mourn or atone for any of the suffering that he's caused, just that which he has endured. And he's still wearing Nikki's coat as a trophy. Where is this soul that Buffy keeps talking about? And when Spike first saw his sired mother he said she was "glowing". That's exactly what he called Buffy in "STSP". Did anybody else go "ewwww"? I know that a lot of people are going to be anti-Wood after this (or just even more anti-Wood) but I can see his side in this. The Spike that he sees today is no different than the Spike that we see in Wood's flashback. He talks the same, struts the same, swaggers the same. (Where IS Spike's soul?) Despite that little attack in the school a while back, Wood seems capable of working with Spike for the greater good. That is until he finds out about the trigger and Spike's recent homicides. His alterior motive may be vengence but his reasoning is still sound. Spike is a threat to everyone around him and has to be dealt with, not ignored like Buffy wants. Giles seemed more Gileslike in this episode than he has the whole season. That bit about the library was classic Giles and nice to see. But again I can see people around here slamming Giles for what he did but I think Buffy actually left him no choice. Everytime he tried to talk to her she just rolled her eyes and shut him down. And that little comment about him being old and boring was a little uncalled for. I know that it was a joke but it really shows the lack of respect that she seems to have for him. Could it be a little bitterness on her part for his leaving her last year? Giles brought all of those girls to Sunnydale thinking that Buffy would protect them. Instead Buffy exposes them to an agent of the FE. I can't help but wonder, if he had all of this info beforehand, would he have done the same? As for the rest of the Scoobs, they all seem to be well aware of Buffy's preferences. Xander, Anya, Kennedy, and Rona all seem to be a little put out by Buffy's coddling of Spike. Buffy keeps saying that the mission comes first but everyone knows that it's Spike first, then the mission, then everybody else. Sorry about the stream of consciousness post but I'm running late.

2003-03-25 18:17:27+00:00 - Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dunce@nomail.com)


Hi, Here's some spoiler space for you Yankees. Well, this was an interesting episode. I watched it last night and then had to watch it again today before I felt I could write about it. Part of that has to do with the huge gap between episodes. I couldn't believe it when I saw that "Storyteller" was the last ep on my tape, it seems so long ago. I'm going to try to break this post down according to the four principle players and see how much sense it makes. Here goes nothing... I posted in another thread that I thought Buffy was suffering from a form of Stockholm syndrome that made her dependant on her stalker for support and this episode supports that hypothesis. Buffy watchs Spike lose control due to the FE's trigger and sees her sister get hurt but seems to be more concerned about Spike. When Dawn gets hurt it's Willow who runs to her side with Xander, Wood, and Giles being equally concerned, if somewhat distracted by Spike's roaring. Buffy's focus never shifts from Spike. When the others take Dawn upstairs, Buffy still seems uninterested in Dawn's health. Even Spike seemed to be more concerned. And then she unchains Spike, simply because he asked her to? This is disturbing. Buffy seems to think that Spike is her strongest ally. She defends him against Giles, her oldest ally, and seems to place his importance before Willow, her most powerful ally, and Xander, her most loyal ally. Whenever anyone questions her blind faith in Spike she just rolls her eyes and mentions his new soul. Even seeing triggered Spike hurt her sister doesn't shake the rose-colered glasses from her head. Buffy seems to be perfectly willing to put everyones lives at risk just to indulge her fantasies about her boy. I thought Spike came off as pretty shallow. First he seemed unwilling to face the memories that were the source of his trigger. Then he demanded to be released from his shackles, even though he clearly knew that he was still a danger to everyone. This is in stark contrast from his behavior in "The Killer in Me", where he wants to stay chained up for everyone else's safety, supposedly. Then his little talk to Wood about their mothers seemed as if he was going "nyah nyah". He made a big point about how Wood's mother never loved him. It just seemed like a cheap shot, even for him. Then he shows no remorse for killing Nikki. Just last week on Angel we saw Angel punish himself for years because he drank from a dead man. The only real remorse we see from Spike involves his mother. We never see him mourn or atone for any of the suffering that he's caused, just that which he has endured. And he's still wearing Nikki's coat as a trophy. Where is this soul that Buffy keeps talking about? And when Spike first saw his sired mother he said she was "glowing". That's exactly what he called Buffy in "STSP". Did anybody else go "ewwww"? I know that a lot of people are going to be anti-Wood after this (or just even more anti-Wood) but I can see his side in this. The Spike that he sees today is no different than the Spike that we see in Wood's flashback. He talks the same, struts the same, swaggers the same. (Where IS Spike's soul?) Despite that little attack in the school a while back, Wood seems capable of working with Spike for the greater good. That is until he finds out about the trigger and Spike's recent homicides. His alterior motive may be vengence but his reasoning is still sound. Spike is a threat to everyone around him and has to be dealt with, not ignored like Buffy wants. Giles seemed more Gileslike in this episode than he has the whole season. That bit about the library was classic Giles and nice to see. But again I can see people around here slamming Giles for what he did but I think Buffy actually left him no choice. Everytime he tried to talk to her she just rolled her eyes and shut him down. And that little comment about him being old and boring was a little uncalled for. I know that it was a joke but it really shows the lack of respect that she seems to have for him. Could it be a little bitterness on her part for his leaving her last year? Giles brought all of those girls to Sunnydale thinking that Buffy would protect them. Instead Buffy exposes them to an agent of the FE. I can't help but wonder, if he had all of this info beforehand, would he have done the same? As for the rest of the Scoobs, they all seem to be well aware of Buffy's preferences. Xander, Anya, Kennedy, and Rona all seem to be a little put out by Buffy's coddling of Spike. Buffy keeps saying that the mission comes first but everyone knows that it's Spike first, then the mission, then everybody else. Sorry about the stream of consciousness post but I'm running late.

2003-03-25 21:31:06+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dunce@nomail.com)


On 26 Mar 2003 02:28:20 GMT, dave82881@aol.com (Dave82881) wrote: >>Then he shows no >>remorse for killing Nikki. > >We've had a few discussions on this NG about the morality of a vampire killing >a slayer. It's not quite like a criminal killing a police officer because cops >don't usually go hunting for criminals like a slayer does. In the flashback in >this episode, Spike attacked Nikki and then ran away. Obviously, she went >looking for him after taking little Robin home and eventually found him on the >subway. Killing a slayer is not as much self-defense as Spike made it sound, >but he was right. He killed a lot of people's mothers, and frankly, there's no >way he can adequately make it up to any of his victims other than, to borrow >the expression, to help the helpless and be a good man. > Buffy keeps saying that there is a difference between Spike presoul and postsoul. Spike presoul should have had no problem with killing Nikki. Spike postsoul should have shown remorse. He came face to face with a victim of his violent past. Presoul Spike ruined Wood's life and postsoul Spike should have felt some tinge of guilt about it. You say that Spike should "help the helpless and be a good man". In CWDP we saw Spike just hanging out in bars and picking up women while Buffy was helping the helpless. I'll ask again, where was Spike's soul then? >>Just last week on Angel we saw Angel punish >>himself for years because he drank from a dead man. > >It's well established that Angelus was much worse than Spike ever was. Angelus >had an unlimited capacity for inflicting pain and was a brutal sadist. It's >telling that he always tries to kill the people whom he knows the best. Spike, >even at the height of his evil when he got the nickname, was never as bad. He >enjoyed the fighting and drinking and took special pleasure in battling >slayers, but he had (still has) a demon inside of him. I think Angel had that >remorse for drinking from a dying man because he had hoped to overcome the >addiction to human blood by lying in the gutters. In "Sleeper", rerun next week, Spike tells Buffy about some of the darker things that he has done. There are strong indications that he has done things that are just as bad as what Angelus did, just not as artistically. > > >And he's still wearing Nikki's coat as a trophy. > >It's a nice coat. Besides, do you know how much leather jackets cost? To >quote Spike, it's not like he can work at Dairy Queen. It's like rubbing his victims nose in his crime. Wherefore art thou soul? > >I'm not as high on Giles as you are. Do you remember "Helpless?" I seem to >recall a promise to make up for his betrayal. I've always thought that the >mutual trust that they have established was the foundation of their >relationship since then. Since David Fury also wrote that episode, I wonder if >he was referencing Helpless when Buffy slammed the door on Giles. > > I remember "Helpless". I remember Giles defying the counsel to save Buffy and being fired because of it. I also remember the death of Jenny Calender because Buffy couldn't deal with killing Angelus and Buffy concealing Angel's return because she couldn't deal with that. There's a precedent of Buffy putting off things until they can't be avoided, usually resulting in people dying.

2003-03-25 21:31:06+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dunce@nomail.com)


On 26 Mar 2003 02:28:20 GMT, dave82881@aol.com (Dave82881) wrote: >>Then he shows no >>remorse for killing Nikki. > >We've had a few discussions on this NG about the morality of a vampire killing >a slayer. It's not quite like a criminal killing a police officer because cops >don't usually go hunting for criminals like a slayer does. In the flashback in >this episode, Spike attacked Nikki and then ran away. Obviously, she went >looking for him after taking little Robin home and eventually found him on the >subway. Killing a slayer is not as much self-defense as Spike made it sound, >but he was right. He killed a lot of people's mothers, and frankly, there's no >way he can adequately make it up to any of his victims other than, to borrow >the expression, to help the helpless and be a good man. > Buffy keeps saying that there is a difference between Spike presoul and postsoul. Spike presoul should have had no problem with killing Nikki. Spike postsoul should have shown remorse. He came face to face with a victim of his violent past. Presoul Spike ruined Wood's life and postsoul Spike should have felt some tinge of guilt about it. You say that Spike should "help the helpless and be a good man". In CWDP we saw Spike just hanging out in bars and picking up women while Buffy was helping the helpless. I'll ask again, where was Spike's soul then? >>Just last week on Angel we saw Angel punish >>himself for years because he drank from a dead man. > >It's well established that Angelus was much worse than Spike ever was. Angelus >had an unlimited capacity for inflicting pain and was a brutal sadist. It's >telling that he always tries to kill the people whom he knows the best. Spike, >even at the height of his evil when he got the nickname, was never as bad. He >enjoyed the fighting and drinking and took special pleasure in battling >slayers, but he had (still has) a demon inside of him. I think Angel had that >remorse for drinking from a dying man because he had hoped to overcome the >addiction to human blood by lying in the gutters. In "Sleeper", rerun next week, Spike tells Buffy about some of the darker things that he has done. There are strong indications that he has done things that are just as bad as what Angelus did, just not as artistically. > > >And he's still wearing Nikki's coat as a trophy. > >It's a nice coat. Besides, do you know how much leather jackets cost? To >quote Spike, it's not like he can work at Dairy Queen. It's like rubbing his victims nose in his crime. Wherefore art thou soul? > >I'm not as high on Giles as you are. Do you remember "Helpless?" I seem to >recall a promise to make up for his betrayal. I've always thought that the >mutual trust that they have established was the foundation of their >relationship since then. Since David Fury also wrote that episode, I wonder if >he was referencing Helpless when Buffy slammed the door on Giles. > > I remember "Helpless". I remember Giles defying the counsel to save Buffy and being fired because of it. I also remember the death of Jenny Calender because Buffy couldn't deal with killing Angelus and Buffy concealing Angel's return because she couldn't deal with that. There's a precedent of Buffy putting off things until they can't be avoided, usually resulting in people dying.

2003-03-25 22:17:15+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dunce@nomail.com)


On 26 Mar 2003 04:06:02 GMT, dave82881@aol.com (Dave82881) wrote: >>I remember Giles defying the counsel to save >>Buffy and being fired because of it. > >That was the right thing to do, but it was after Giles dsabled Buff without her >knowledge. > >>I also remember the death of >>Jenny Calender because Buffy couldn't deal with killing Angelus and >>Buffy concealing Angel's return because she couldn't deal with that. >>There's a precedent of Buffy putting off things until they can't be >>avoided, usually resulting in people dying. > >I really think it's unfair to hold Buffy responsible for Jenny's death. >Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't she 16 years old at the time? Back then, >she truly needed a watcher to guide her, and clearly, Giles didn't order Buffy >to patrol day and night to stop Angelus dead or undead before he killed anyone >else. > Buffy had beaten Angelus at the mall where she blew up the Judge. If she had killed him then then Jenny wouldn't have died later. She is also responsible for all the other people that Angelus killed during this period. I'd also like to point out that when it was revealed that Jenny was a gypsy sent to spy on Angel that Giles sided with Buffy against Jenny. He put Buffy and the mission before his own feelings for Jenny and Buffy can't do the same now with Spike. > >Dave

2003-03-25 22:17:15+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dunce@nomail.com)


On 26 Mar 2003 04:06:02 GMT, dave82881@aol.com (Dave82881) wrote: >>I remember Giles defying the counsel to save >>Buffy and being fired because of it. > >That was the right thing to do, but it was after Giles dsabled Buff without her >knowledge. > >>I also remember the death of >>Jenny Calender because Buffy couldn't deal with killing Angelus and >>Buffy concealing Angel's return because she couldn't deal with that. >>There's a precedent of Buffy putting off things until they can't be >>avoided, usually resulting in people dying. > >I really think it's unfair to hold Buffy responsible for Jenny's death. >Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't she 16 years old at the time? Back then, >she truly needed a watcher to guide her, and clearly, Giles didn't order Buffy >to patrol day and night to stop Angelus dead or undead before he killed anyone >else. > Buffy had beaten Angelus at the mall where she blew up the Judge. If she had killed him then then Jenny wouldn't have died later. She is also responsible for all the other people that Angelus killed during this period. I'd also like to point out that when it was revealed that Jenny was a gypsy sent to spy on Angel that Giles sided with Buffy against Jenny. He put Buffy and the mission before his own feelings for Jenny and Buffy can't do the same now with Spike. > >Dave

2003-03-25 23:40:05-06:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <3E813BD8.BDFBD20D@earthlink.net>, John DiFool <jdifool@earthlink.net> wrote: > dunce@nomail.com wrote: > > > > > Buffy had beaten Angelus at the mall where she blew up the Judge. If > > she had killed him then then Jenny wouldn't have died later. She is > > also responsible for all the other people that Angelus killed during > > this period. I'd also like to point out that when it was revealed that > > Jenny was a gypsy sent to spy on Angel that Giles sided with Buffy > > against Jenny. He put Buffy and the mission before his own feelings > > for Jenny and Buffy can't do the same now with Spike. > > > > Does Buffy also get credit for all the people Angel >saved< > after he got his soul back? > No.... Willow does.

2003-03-25 23:40:05-06:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <3E813BD8.BDFBD20D@earthlink.net>, John DiFool <jdifool@earthlink.net> wrote: > dunce@nomail.com wrote: > > > > > Buffy had beaten Angelus at the mall where she blew up the Judge. If > > she had killed him then then Jenny wouldn't have died later. She is > > also responsible for all the other people that Angelus killed during > > this period. I'd also like to point out that when it was revealed that > > Jenny was a gypsy sent to spy on Angel that Giles sided with Buffy > > against Jenny. He put Buffy and the mission before his own feelings > > for Jenny and Buffy can't do the same now with Spike. > > > > Does Buffy also get credit for all the people Angel >saved< > after he got his soul back? > No.... Willow does.

2003-03-26 02:28:20+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dave82881@aol.com)


>Then he shows no >remorse for killing Nikki. We've had a few discussions on this NG about the morality of a vampire killing a slayer. It's not quite like a criminal killing a police officer because cops don't usually go hunting for criminals like a slayer does. In the flashback in this episode, Spike attacked Nikki and then ran away. Obviously, she went looking for him after taking little Robin home and eventually found him on the subway. Killing a slayer is not as much self-defense as Spike made it sound, but he was right. He killed a lot of people's mothers, and frankly, there's no way he can adequately make it up to any of his victims other than, to borrow the expression, to help the helpless and be a good man. >Just last week on Angel we saw Angel punish >himself for years because he drank from a dead man. It's well established that Angelus was much worse than Spike ever was. Angelus had an unlimited capacity for inflicting pain and was a brutal sadist. It's telling that he always tries to kill the people whom he knows the best. Spike, even at the height of his evil when he got the nickname, was never as bad. He enjoyed the fighting and drinking and took special pleasure in battling slayers, but he had (still has) a demon inside of him. I think Angel had that remorse for drinking from a dying man because he had hoped to overcome the addiction to human blood by lying in the gutters. >And he's still wearing Nikki's coat as a trophy. It's a nice coat. Besides, do you know how much leather jackets cost? To quote Spike, it's not like he can work at Dairy Queen. I'm not as high on Giles as you are. Do you remember "Helpless?" I seem to recall a promise to make up for his betrayal. I've always thought that the mutual trust that they have established was the foundation of their relationship since then. Since David Fury also wrote that episode, I wonder if he was referencing Helpless when Buffy slammed the door on Giles. Dave

2003-03-26 02:28:20+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dave82881@aol.com)


>Then he shows no >remorse for killing Nikki. We've had a few discussions on this NG about the morality of a vampire killing a slayer. It's not quite like a criminal killing a police officer because cops don't usually go hunting for criminals like a slayer does. In the flashback in this episode, Spike attacked Nikki and then ran away. Obviously, she went looking for him after taking little Robin home and eventually found him on the subway. Killing a slayer is not as much self-defense as Spike made it sound, but he was right. He killed a lot of people's mothers, and frankly, there's no way he can adequately make it up to any of his victims other than, to borrow the expression, to help the helpless and be a good man. >Just last week on Angel we saw Angel punish >himself for years because he drank from a dead man. It's well established that Angelus was much worse than Spike ever was. Angelus had an unlimited capacity for inflicting pain and was a brutal sadist. It's telling that he always tries to kill the people whom he knows the best. Spike, even at the height of his evil when he got the nickname, was never as bad. He enjoyed the fighting and drinking and took special pleasure in battling slayers, but he had (still has) a demon inside of him. I think Angel had that remorse for drinking from a dying man because he had hoped to overcome the addiction to human blood by lying in the gutters. >And he's still wearing Nikki's coat as a trophy. It's a nice coat. Besides, do you know how much leather jackets cost? To quote Spike, it's not like he can work at Dairy Queen. I'm not as high on Giles as you are. Do you remember "Helpless?" I seem to recall a promise to make up for his betrayal. I've always thought that the mutual trust that they have established was the foundation of their relationship since then. Since David Fury also wrote that episode, I wonder if he was referencing Helpless when Buffy slammed the door on Giles. Dave

2003-03-26 03:12:33+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (Spanish101 <mark1010@earthlink.net>)


dunce@nomail.com wrote: > > I know that a lot of people are going to be anti-Wood after > this Andrew is 100% pro -wood.

2003-03-26 03:12:33+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (Spanish101 <mark1010@earthlink.net>)


dunce@nomail.com wrote: > > I know that a lot of people are going to be anti-Wood after > this Andrew is 100% pro -wood.

2003-03-26 03:52:31+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - ("Shaun G." <shaun23345g@verizon.net>)


Dave82881 wrote: >>Then he shows no >>remorse for killing Nikki. > > > We've had a few discussions on this NG about the morality of a vampire killing > a slayer. It's not quite like a criminal killing a police officer because cops > don't usually go hunting for criminals like a slayer does. In the flashback in > this episode, Spike attacked Nikki and then ran away. Obviously, she went > looking for him after taking little Robin home and eventually found him on the > subway. When did we see this flashback? I don't remember seeing this flashback. > Killing a slayer is not as much self-defense as Spike made it sound, > but he was right. He killed a lot of people's mothers, and frankly, there's no > way he can adequately make it up to any of his victims other than, to borrow > the expression, to help the helpless and be a good man. > This is the problem I have with the whole soul absolves you of everything concept. Even if you get out of a jail term due to an insanity defense, you still have to stay in the nut house until it's determined that you're cured. Why does Spike get to walk around and be helpful? I feel the same way about Angel too. > > >And he's still wearing Nikki's coat as a trophy. > > It's a nice coat. Besides, do you know how much leather jackets cost? To > quote Spike, it's not like he can work at Dairy Queen. I'm sorry but if he has a soul and is supposed to "help the helpless and be a good man" he wouldn't go walking around in a trenchcoat owned by the slayer he killed. It's a slap in the face to Buffy (not that she cares) and Wood if he decides to stay around. I really don't think anyone can objectively defend that fact. > > I'm not as high on Giles as you are. Do you remember "Helpless?" I seem to > recall a promise to make up for his betrayal. I've always thought that the > mutual trust that they have established was the foundation of their > relationship since then. Since David Fury also wrote that episode, I wonder if > he was referencing Helpless when Buffy slammed the door on Giles. > The way Buffy has acted this season I think the only reason the rest of them stay with her is because of the fear of the whole world ending. She's treated them like crap. Maybe Giles was wrong about HOW he decided to fix the Spike problem, but he was right about Spike being a liability. Actually, I can understand Buffy being a brat towards Giles and Wood but saying she'll let Spike kill Wood is just ridiculous. Shaun G.

2003-03-26 03:52:31+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - ("Shaun G." <shaun23345g@verizon.net>)


Dave82881 wrote: >>Then he shows no >>remorse for killing Nikki. > > > We've had a few discussions on this NG about the morality of a vampire killing > a slayer. It's not quite like a criminal killing a police officer because cops > don't usually go hunting for criminals like a slayer does. In the flashback in > this episode, Spike attacked Nikki and then ran away. Obviously, she went > looking for him after taking little Robin home and eventually found him on the > subway. When did we see this flashback? I don't remember seeing this flashback. > Killing a slayer is not as much self-defense as Spike made it sound, > but he was right. He killed a lot of people's mothers, and frankly, there's no > way he can adequately make it up to any of his victims other than, to borrow > the expression, to help the helpless and be a good man. > This is the problem I have with the whole soul absolves you of everything concept. Even if you get out of a jail term due to an insanity defense, you still have to stay in the nut house until it's determined that you're cured. Why does Spike get to walk around and be helpful? I feel the same way about Angel too. > > >And he's still wearing Nikki's coat as a trophy. > > It's a nice coat. Besides, do you know how much leather jackets cost? To > quote Spike, it's not like he can work at Dairy Queen. I'm sorry but if he has a soul and is supposed to "help the helpless and be a good man" he wouldn't go walking around in a trenchcoat owned by the slayer he killed. It's a slap in the face to Buffy (not that she cares) and Wood if he decides to stay around. I really don't think anyone can objectively defend that fact. > > I'm not as high on Giles as you are. Do you remember "Helpless?" I seem to > recall a promise to make up for his betrayal. I've always thought that the > mutual trust that they have established was the foundation of their > relationship since then. Since David Fury also wrote that episode, I wonder if > he was referencing Helpless when Buffy slammed the door on Giles. > The way Buffy has acted this season I think the only reason the rest of them stay with her is because of the fear of the whole world ending. She's treated them like crap. Maybe Giles was wrong about HOW he decided to fix the Spike problem, but he was right about Spike being a liability. Actually, I can understand Buffy being a brat towards Giles and Wood but saying she'll let Spike kill Wood is just ridiculous. Shaun G.

2003-03-26 03:57:59+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, dave82881@aol.com wrote in article <20030325212820.03193.00000624@mb-fh.aol.com>... [snipped] > > It's well established that Angelus was much worse than Spike ever was. Angelus > had an unlimited capacity for inflicting pain and was a brutal sadist. It's > telling that he always tries to kill the people whom he knows the best. Spike, > even at the height of his evil when he got the nickname, was never as bad. He > enjoyed the fighting and drinking and took special pleasure in battling > slayers, but he had (still has) a demon inside of him. I think Angel had that > remorse for drinking from a dying man because he had hoped to overcome the > addiction to human blood by lying in the gutters. What? Even in his present state Spike would take offense to what you are saying. By his own account, Spike is a "bloody animal." Spike the vampire without a soul or chip was a brawler and mercy was not in his lexicon. He did dote on his Drusilla and the fact that he was a romantic is the best you can say about him. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-26 03:57:59+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, dave82881@aol.com wrote in article <20030325212820.03193.00000624@mb-fh.aol.com>... [snipped] > > It's well established that Angelus was much worse than Spike ever was. Angelus > had an unlimited capacity for inflicting pain and was a brutal sadist. It's > telling that he always tries to kill the people whom he knows the best. Spike, > even at the height of his evil when he got the nickname, was never as bad. He > enjoyed the fighting and drinking and took special pleasure in battling > slayers, but he had (still has) a demon inside of him. I think Angel had that > remorse for drinking from a dying man because he had hoped to overcome the > addiction to human blood by lying in the gutters. What? Even in his present state Spike would take offense to what you are saying. By his own account, Spike is a "bloody animal." Spike the vampire without a soul or chip was a brawler and mercy was not in his lexicon. He did dote on his Drusilla and the fact that he was a romantic is the best you can say about him. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-26 04:06:02+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dave82881@aol.com)


>I remember Giles defying the counsel to save >Buffy and being fired because of it. That was the right thing to do, but it was after Giles dsabled Buff without her knowledge. >I also remember the death of >Jenny Calender because Buffy couldn't deal with killing Angelus and >Buffy concealing Angel's return because she couldn't deal with that. >There's a precedent of Buffy putting off things until they can't be >avoided, usually resulting in people dying. I really think it's unfair to hold Buffy responsible for Jenny's death. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't she 16 years old at the time? Back then, she truly needed a watcher to guide her, and clearly, Giles didn't order Buffy to patrol day and night to stop Angelus dead or undead before he killed anyone else. Dave

2003-03-26 04:06:02+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dave82881@aol.com)


>I remember Giles defying the counsel to save >Buffy and being fired because of it. That was the right thing to do, but it was after Giles dsabled Buff without her knowledge. >I also remember the death of >Jenny Calender because Buffy couldn't deal with killing Angelus and >Buffy concealing Angel's return because she couldn't deal with that. >There's a precedent of Buffy putting off things until they can't be >avoided, usually resulting in people dying. I really think it's unfair to hold Buffy responsible for Jenny's death. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't she 16 years old at the time? Back then, she truly needed a watcher to guide her, and clearly, Giles didn't order Buffy to patrol day and night to stop Angelus dead or undead before he killed anyone else. Dave

2003-03-26 04:07:56+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dave82881@aol.com)


>Obviously, she went >> looking for him after taking little Robin home and eventually found him on >the >> subway. >When did we see this flashback? I don't remember seeing this flashback. The flashback of Spike killing Wood's mother was in "Fool for Love." In LMPTM, we evidently got the prelude to their later battle in the subway, where Spike killed Nikki. Dave

2003-03-26 04:07:56+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dave82881@aol.com)


>Obviously, she went >> looking for him after taking little Robin home and eventually found him on >the >> subway. >When did we see this flashback? I don't remember seeing this flashback. The flashback of Spike killing Wood's mother was in "Fool for Love." In LMPTM, we evidently got the prelude to their later battle in the subway, where Spike killed Nikki. Dave

2003-03-26 05:30:53+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (John DiFool <jdifool@earthlink.net>)


dunce@nomail.com wrote: > > I know that a lot of people are going to be anti-Wood after > this (or just even more anti-Wood) but I can see his side in this. The > Spike that he sees today is no different than the Spike that we see in > Wood's flashback. He talks the same, struts the same, swaggers the > same. (Where IS Spike's soul?) Despite that little attack in the > school a while back, Wood seems capable of working with Spike for the > greater good. That is until he finds out about the trigger and Spike's > recent homicides. His alterior motive may be vengence but his > reasoning is still sound. Spike is a threat to everyone around him and > has to be dealt with, not ignored like Buffy wants. > Yet it is entirely possible that Buffy is >right< about Spike, that when the chips are down he will come through for her and the gang. This despite her obvious bias towards him. Then again maybe he won't... JD -- ============================================ Reach heaven far too high ============================================

2003-03-26 05:30:53+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (John DiFool <jdifool@earthlink.net>)


dunce@nomail.com wrote: > > I know that a lot of people are going to be anti-Wood after > this (or just even more anti-Wood) but I can see his side in this. The > Spike that he sees today is no different than the Spike that we see in > Wood's flashback. He talks the same, struts the same, swaggers the > same. (Where IS Spike's soul?) Despite that little attack in the > school a while back, Wood seems capable of working with Spike for the > greater good. That is until he finds out about the trigger and Spike's > recent homicides. His alterior motive may be vengence but his > reasoning is still sound. Spike is a threat to everyone around him and > has to be dealt with, not ignored like Buffy wants. > Yet it is entirely possible that Buffy is >right< about Spike, that when the chips are down he will come through for her and the gang. This despite her obvious bias towards him. Then again maybe he won't... JD -- ============================================ Reach heaven far too high ============================================

2003-03-26 05:33:55+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (John DiFool <jdifool@earthlink.net>)


dunce@nomail.com wrote: > > Buffy had beaten Angelus at the mall where she blew up the Judge. If > she had killed him then then Jenny wouldn't have died later. She is > also responsible for all the other people that Angelus killed during > this period. I'd also like to point out that when it was revealed that > Jenny was a gypsy sent to spy on Angel that Giles sided with Buffy > against Jenny. He put Buffy and the mission before his own feelings > for Jenny and Buffy can't do the same now with Spike. > Does Buffy also get credit for all the people Angel >saved< after he got his soul back? It works both ways. JD -- ============================================ Reach heaven far too high ============================================

2003-03-26 05:33:55+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (John DiFool <jdifool@earthlink.net>)


dunce@nomail.com wrote: > > Buffy had beaten Angelus at the mall where she blew up the Judge. If > she had killed him then then Jenny wouldn't have died later. She is > also responsible for all the other people that Angelus killed during > this period. I'd also like to point out that when it was revealed that > Jenny was a gypsy sent to spy on Angel that Giles sided with Buffy > against Jenny. He put Buffy and the mission before his own feelings > for Jenny and Buffy can't do the same now with Spike. > Does Buffy also get credit for all the people Angel >saved< after he got his soul back? It works both ways. JD -- ============================================ Reach heaven far too high ============================================

2003-03-26 18:28:55+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, jdifool@earthlink.net wrote in article <3E813BD8.BDFBD20D@earthlink.net>... > dunce@nomail.com wrote: > > > > > Buffy had beaten Angelus at the mall where she blew up the Judge. If > > she had killed him then then Jenny wouldn't have died later. She is > > also responsible for all the other people that Angelus killed during > > this period. I'd also like to point out that when it was revealed that > > Jenny was a gypsy sent to spy on Angel that Giles sided with Buffy > > against Jenny. He put Buffy and the mission before his own feelings > > for Jenny and Buffy can't do the same now with Spike. > > > > Does Buffy also get credit for all the people Angel >saved< > after he got his soul back? It works both ways. > > JD I like Angel. I think he is a hero. But Buffy had a chance to kill a rampaging demon and took a pass. It does not work both ways because she did not know if Angel would ever be restored to the world. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-26 18:28:55+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, jdifool@earthlink.net wrote in article <3E813BD8.BDFBD20D@earthlink.net>... > dunce@nomail.com wrote: > > > > > Buffy had beaten Angelus at the mall where she blew up the Judge. If > > she had killed him then then Jenny wouldn't have died later. She is > > also responsible for all the other people that Angelus killed during > > this period. I'd also like to point out that when it was revealed that > > Jenny was a gypsy sent to spy on Angel that Giles sided with Buffy > > against Jenny. He put Buffy and the mission before his own feelings > > for Jenny and Buffy can't do the same now with Spike. > > > > Does Buffy also get credit for all the people Angel >saved< > after he got his soul back? It works both ways. > > JD I like Angel. I think he is a hero. But Buffy had a chance to kill a rampaging demon and took a pass. It does not work both ways because she did not know if Angel would ever be restored to the world. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-26 20:51:10-08:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (DanielArmato@aol.com)


"Shaun G." <shaun23345g@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<3u9ga.100378$iq1.77637@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>... > Dave82881 wrote: > > The way Buffy has acted this season I think the only reason the rest of > them stay with her is because of the fear of the whole world ending. > She's treated them like crap. > Why? She is doing her best to keep them all alive! > Maybe Giles was wrong about HOW he decided to fix the Spike problem, but > he was right about Spike being a liability. > > Actually, I can understand Buffy being a brat towards Giles A brat? Huh? Giles is the one who acted immature by deceiving her. Wood acted immaturely by trying to murder (yes, I said murder) a person with a soul. One who resembles the monster that killed his mother, but is not that creature any more. Mature people discuss things. Didn't S6 teach Giles anything? Isn't he supposed to be the 'thinker'. He was strategically wrong as well as morally wrong here and I'm glad Buffy called him on it. At least one character of the three still has morals. and Wood but > saying she'll let Spike kill Wood is just ridiculous. Why? Does Spike NOT have a right to defend himself? He has a soul. Why is Mr. Vengeful allowed to try to murder SouledSpike? I thought Buffy was right and was very proud when she said that. It was a very strong moment for her and I'm happy that ME didn't wimp out here. I agree with Buffy 100% on this one. I actually let out a very loud cheer (neighbors probably think I'm crazy---unless they were watching too). I think Wood is a liability to the group. First rule of a cohesive unit----do not try to kill each other. Giles didn't help matters either. Please tell me that was not Giles.

2003-03-26 20:51:10-08:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (DanielArmato@aol.com)


"Shaun G." <shaun23345g@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<3u9ga.100378$iq1.77637@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>... > Dave82881 wrote: > > The way Buffy has acted this season I think the only reason the rest of > them stay with her is because of the fear of the whole world ending. > She's treated them like crap. > Why? She is doing her best to keep them all alive! > Maybe Giles was wrong about HOW he decided to fix the Spike problem, but > he was right about Spike being a liability. > > Actually, I can understand Buffy being a brat towards Giles A brat? Huh? Giles is the one who acted immature by deceiving her. Wood acted immaturely by trying to murder (yes, I said murder) a person with a soul. One who resembles the monster that killed his mother, but is not that creature any more. Mature people discuss things. Didn't S6 teach Giles anything? Isn't he supposed to be the 'thinker'. He was strategically wrong as well as morally wrong here and I'm glad Buffy called him on it. At least one character of the three still has morals. and Wood but > saying she'll let Spike kill Wood is just ridiculous. Why? Does Spike NOT have a right to defend himself? He has a soul. Why is Mr. Vengeful allowed to try to murder SouledSpike? I thought Buffy was right and was very proud when she said that. It was a very strong moment for her and I'm happy that ME didn't wimp out here. I agree with Buffy 100% on this one. I actually let out a very loud cheer (neighbors probably think I'm crazy---unless they were watching too). I think Wood is a liability to the group. First rule of a cohesive unit----do not try to kill each other. Giles didn't help matters either. Please tell me that was not Giles.

2003-03-26 23:54:43-06:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <eae61bb0.0303262051.509791ce@posting.google.com>, DanielArmato@aol.com (Dan Armato) wrote: > "Shaun G." <shaun23345g@verizon.net> wrote in message > news:<3u9ga.100378$iq1.77637@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>... > > Dave82881 wrote: > > > > > The way Buffy has acted this season I think the only reason the rest of > > them stay with her is because of the fear of the whole world ending. > > She's treated them like crap. > > > > Why? She is doing her best to keep them all alive! How? By letting a super-strong vampire who was brainwashed by the First and has already managed to kill dozens without even being aware of it roam free through her house?

2003-03-26 23:54:43-06:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <eae61bb0.0303262051.509791ce@posting.google.com>, DanielArmato@aol.com (Dan Armato) wrote: > "Shaun G." <shaun23345g@verizon.net> wrote in message > news:<3u9ga.100378$iq1.77637@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>... > > Dave82881 wrote: > > > > > The way Buffy has acted this season I think the only reason the rest of > > them stay with her is because of the fear of the whole world ending. > > She's treated them like crap. > > > > Why? She is doing her best to keep them all alive! How? By letting a super-strong vampire who was brainwashed by the First and has already managed to kill dozens without even being aware of it roam free through her house?

2003-03-27 00:19:29+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dunce@nomail.com)


> First rule of a cohesive >unit----do not try to kill each other. I'm sure that that was Buffy's plan if Spike's trigger went off. "Now Spike, the first rule of a cohesive unit is don't kill each other. Now stop beating on my sister and tell me again how I'm the center of your world."

2003-03-27 00:19:29+00:00 - Re: Some thoughts on "Lies My Parents Told Me" - (dunce@nomail.com)


> First rule of a cohesive >unit----do not try to kill each other. I'm sure that that was Buffy's plan if Spike's trigger went off. "Now Spike, the first rule of a cohesive unit is don't kill each other. Now stop beating on my sister and tell me again how I'm the center of your world."