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2003-05-20 16:11:32-05:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - ("Rick Ramey, Mere Mortal" <rickramey@tepidmail.com>)


On Tue, 20 May 2003 21:02:34 GMT, "Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote: >Hi, >So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about if >actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead People" was >actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > >Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message concerning the >whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it concerning the fact >Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > >I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ >Willow at the time. > >ur opinion ? > It really doesn't matter if it was ghost Joyce or The First because what was said doesn't make a goddamd bit of sense.

2003-05-20 16:11:32-05:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - ("Rick Ramey, Mere Mortal" <rickramey@tepidmail.com>)


On Tue, 20 May 2003 21:02:34 GMT, "Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote: >Hi, >So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about if >actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead People" was >actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > >Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message concerning the >whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it concerning the fact >Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > >I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ >Willow at the time. > >ur opinion ? > It really doesn't matter if it was ghost Joyce or The First because what was said doesn't make a goddamd bit of sense.

2003-05-20 19:57:53-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <2e6lcvgcu9dpmd6uqr7v3j1670k5gcaran@4ax.com>, Rick Ramey, Mere Mortal <rickramey@tepidmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, 20 May 2003 21:02:34 GMT, "Clayton Chow" > <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >Hi, > >So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about if > >actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead People" was > >actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > > > >Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message concerning the > >whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it concerning the fact > >Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > > > >I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ > >Willow at the time. > > > >ur opinion ? > > > > It really doesn't matter if it was ghost Joyce or The First because > what was said doesn't make a goddamd bit of sense. It was the First, trying to sew discontent among Buffy's supporters, just like it did when it appeared to Wood, and to Faith. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-20 19:57:53-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <2e6lcvgcu9dpmd6uqr7v3j1670k5gcaran@4ax.com>, Rick Ramey, Mere Mortal <rickramey@tepidmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, 20 May 2003 21:02:34 GMT, "Clayton Chow" > <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >Hi, > >So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about if > >actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead People" was > >actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > > > >Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message concerning the > >whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it concerning the fact > >Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > > > >I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ > >Willow at the time. > > > >ur opinion ? > > > > It really doesn't matter if it was ghost Joyce or The First because > what was said doesn't make a goddamd bit of sense. It was the First, trying to sew discontent among Buffy's supporters, just like it did when it appeared to Wood, and to Faith. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-20 21:02:34+00:00 - Conversations with Dead People - (Clayton Chow <stacktown@hotmail.com>)


Hi, So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ Willow at the time. ur opinion ?

2003-05-20 21:02:34+00:00 - Conversations with Dead People - (Clayton Chow <stacktown@hotmail.com>)


Hi, So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ Willow at the time. ur opinion ?

2003-05-20 23:27:51-05:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Mara <mara@oplink.net>)


"DominicanIndian" <dominicanindian@aol.com> wrote in message > i am just confused about why she said "buffy wont pick you in the end"??????? > abandoned plot line???? Buffy didn't pick Dawn to be the champion?

2003-05-20 23:27:51-05:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Mara <mara@oplink.net>)


"DominicanIndian" <dominicanindian@aol.com> wrote in message > i am just confused about why she said "buffy wont pick you in the end"??????? > abandoned plot line???? Buffy didn't pick Dawn to be the champion?

2003-05-21 00:21:21-05:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in > > >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: > > > > > >> Hi, > > >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about > > >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead > > >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > > >> > > >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message > > >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it > > >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > > >> > > >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ > > >> Willow at the time. > > >> > > >> ur opinion ? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent > > >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. > > >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the > > >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to > > >please. > > > > > >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do > > >we have any reason to think otherwise? > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something?

2003-05-21 00:21:21-05:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in > > >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: > > > > > >> Hi, > > >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about > > >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead > > >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > > >> > > >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message > > >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it > > >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > > >> > > >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ > > >> Willow at the time. > > >> > > >> ur opinion ? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent > > >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. > > >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the > > >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to > > >please. > > > > > >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do > > >we have any reason to think otherwise? > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something?

2003-05-21 00:33:45-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com>)


"K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: > >> Hi, >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. >> >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? >> >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ >> Willow at the time. >> >> ur opinion ? >> >> >> > >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to >please. > >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do >we have any reason to think otherwise? And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS more loose thread, more bad writing. Folks, it's over. Take off the rose colored glasses. This ending sold out the story line, and was................ I have nothing good to say (oh, with one exception--the Angel drawing was funny). Bye all. May we some day have some show with the classs of S1 to S3 again. Ken

2003-05-21 00:33:45-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com>)


"K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: > >> Hi, >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. >> >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? >> >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ >> Willow at the time. >> >> ur opinion ? >> >> >> > >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to >please. > >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do >we have any reason to think otherwise? And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS more loose thread, more bad writing. Folks, it's over. Take off the rose colored glasses. This ending sold out the story line, and was................ I have nothing good to say (oh, with one exception--the Angel drawing was funny). Bye all. May we some day have some show with the classs of S1 to S3 again. Ken

2003-05-21 01:08:21-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in > >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: > > > >> Hi, > >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about > >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead > >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > >> > >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message > >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it > >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > >> > >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ > >> Willow at the time. > >> > >> ur opinion ? > >> > >> > >> > > > >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent > >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. > >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the > >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to > >please. > > > >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do > >we have any reason to think otherwise? > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > more loose thread, more bad writing. The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-21 01:08:21-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in > >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: > > > >> Hi, > >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about > >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead > >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > >> > >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message > >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it > >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > >> > >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ > >> Willow at the time. > >> > >> ur opinion ? > >> > >> > >> > > > >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent > >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. > >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the > >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to > >please. > > > >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do > >we have any reason to think otherwise? > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > more loose thread, more bad writing. The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-21 01:24:08-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com>)


Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: >In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 ><KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > >> "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in >> >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: >> > >> >> Hi, >> >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about >> >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead >> >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. >> >> >> >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message >> >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it >> >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? >> >> >> >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ >> >> Willow at the time. >> >> >> >> ur opinion ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent >> >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. >> >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the >> >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to >> >please. >> > >> >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do >> >we have any reason to think otherwise? >> >> And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling >> her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the >> incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS >> more loose thread, more bad writing. > >The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, >Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. >The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to >set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. That's not what we saw. Not a Bringer to be seen, but lots of horror movie spooky effects from invisible forces. Something I don't recall The First doing elsewhere. And for the other defender of that "writing," nor did we ever see The First appear as more than one person in one location at a time. If it had such powers, odd to display them only once. The UPN years are the shameful ones. The WB exec who said pass on Season 6 (and therefore 7 too) turned out to be a genius, IMO. He/she saw they were out of steam already. Ken

2003-05-21 01:24:08-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com>)


Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: >In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 ><KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > >> "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in >> >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: >> > >> >> Hi, >> >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about >> >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead >> >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. >> >> >> >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message >> >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it >> >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? >> >> >> >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ >> >> Willow at the time. >> >> >> >> ur opinion ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent >> >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. >> >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the >> >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to >> >please. >> > >> >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do >> >we have any reason to think otherwise? >> >> And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling >> her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the >> incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS >> more loose thread, more bad writing. > >The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, >Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. >The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to >set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. That's not what we saw. Not a Bringer to be seen, but lots of horror movie spooky effects from invisible forces. Something I don't recall The First doing elsewhere. And for the other defender of that "writing," nor did we ever see The First appear as more than one person in one location at a time. If it had such powers, odd to display them only once. The UPN years are the shameful ones. The WB exec who said pass on Season 6 (and therefore 7 too) turned out to be a genius, IMO. He/she saw they were out of steam already. Ken

2003-05-21 01:32:51-05:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <210520030157438734%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <a-7DCFFA.00212121052003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Darwin Fish > <a@a.edu> wrote: > > > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? > > It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* Yeah... but about what?

2003-05-21 01:32:51-05:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <210520030157438734%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <a-7DCFFA.00212121052003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Darwin Fish > <a@a.edu> wrote: > > > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? > > It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* Yeah... but about what?

2003-05-21 01:56:35-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <n13mcvktunct2jknhfc2rc06be51esh8an@4ax.com>, KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > >In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > ><KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > >> "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > >> >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in > >> >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: > >> > > >> >> Hi, > >> >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about > >> >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead > >> >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > >> >> > >> >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message > >> >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it > >> >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > >> >> > >> >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ > >> >> Willow at the time. > >> >> > >> >> ur opinion ? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent > >> >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. > >> >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the > >> >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to > >> >please. > >> > > >> >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do > >> >we have any reason to think otherwise? > >> > >> And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > >> her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > >> incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > >> more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > >The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > >Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > >The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > >set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > That's not what we saw. Not a Bringer to be seen, but lots of horror > movie spooky effects from invisible forces. I never said that it was Bringers. I gave Bringers as an example of the sort of corporeal helpers the First has. It could have been a magic user with the power level of 4th season Willow doing the special effects. > Something I don't recall > The First doing elsewhere. And for the other defender of that > "writing," nor did we ever see The First appear as more than one > person in one location at a time. If it had such powers, odd to > display them only once. In that very episode the First was doing Cassie for Willow at the same time it was doing Jonathan for Andrew. (And maybe Buffy for Spike, but they didn't show that.) -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-21 01:56:35-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <n13mcvktunct2jknhfc2rc06be51esh8an@4ax.com>, KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > >In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > ><KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > >> "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > >> >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in > >> >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: > >> > > >> >> Hi, > >> >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about > >> >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead > >> >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > >> >> > >> >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message > >> >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it > >> >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > >> >> > >> >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ > >> >> Willow at the time. > >> >> > >> >> ur opinion ? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent > >> >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. > >> >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the > >> >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to > >> >please. > >> > > >> >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do > >> >we have any reason to think otherwise? > >> > >> And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > >> her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > >> incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > >> more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > >The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > >Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > >The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > >set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > That's not what we saw. Not a Bringer to be seen, but lots of horror > movie spooky effects from invisible forces. I never said that it was Bringers. I gave Bringers as an example of the sort of corporeal helpers the First has. It could have been a magic user with the power level of 4th season Willow doing the special effects. > Something I don't recall > The First doing elsewhere. And for the other defender of that > "writing," nor did we ever see The First appear as more than one > person in one location at a time. If it had such powers, odd to > display them only once. In that very episode the First was doing Cassie for Willow at the same time it was doing Jonathan for Andrew. (And maybe Buffy for Spike, but they didn't show that.) -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-21 01:57:43-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <a-7DCFFA.00212121052003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote: > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-21 01:57:43-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <a-7DCFFA.00212121052003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote: > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-21 03:36:38+00:00 - Conversations with Dead People - (Clayton Chow <stacktown@hotmail.com>)


Hi, So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ Willow at the time. ur opinion ?

2003-05-21 03:36:38+00:00 - Conversations with Dead People - (Clayton Chow <stacktown@hotmail.com>)


Hi, So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ Willow at the time. ur opinion ?

2003-05-21 03:51:50+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (dominicanindian@aol.com)


<< Hi, So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ Willow at the time. ur opinion ? >> i am just confused about why she said "buffy wont pick you in the end"??????? abandoned plot line????

2003-05-21 03:51:50+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (dominicanindian@aol.com)


<< Hi, So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ Willow at the time. ur opinion ? >> i am just confused about why she said "buffy wont pick you in the end"??????? abandoned plot line????

2003-05-21 03:57:20+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - ("K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com>)


"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: > Hi, > So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about > if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead > People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > > Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message > concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it > concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > > I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ > Willow at the time. > > ur opinion ? > > > It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to please. As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do we have any reason to think otherwise? -- ******************************* "If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them." -Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

2003-05-21 03:57:20+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - ("K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com>)


"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: > Hi, > So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about > if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead > People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. > > Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message > concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it > concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? > > I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ > Willow at the time. > > ur opinion ? > > > It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to please. As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do we have any reason to think otherwise? -- ******************************* "If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them." -Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

2003-05-21 04:40:29+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - ("K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com>)


KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com: > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > her at the same time? [snip] So? Again... why not? Why wouldn't the First appear to people to its best advantage? During those first couple of episodes, it was still trying to sell that it _was_ the ghosts of those respective persons. -- ******************************* "If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them." -Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

2003-05-21 04:40:29+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - ("K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com>)


KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com: > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > her at the same time? [snip] So? Again... why not? Why wouldn't the First appear to people to its best advantage? During those first couple of episodes, it was still trying to sell that it _was_ the ghosts of those respective persons. -- ******************************* "If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them." -Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

2003-05-21 09:39:35-07:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (kenm47@ix.netcom.com)


"K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9382454C26F69xs10shulremoveyahooc@129.79.1.18>... > KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote in > news:n13mcvktunct2jknhfc2rc06be51esh8an@4ax.com: > > > And for the other defender of that > > "writing," nor did we ever see The First appear as more than one > > person in one location at a time. If it had such powers, odd to > > display them only once. > > It doesn't mean it couldn't, does it? Are you going to argue that those > were real ghosts in a season where a shape-shifting apparition is about? Actually I'm tired about arguing about anything. If The First could do this little trick, appear in one location as more than one dead person, why didn't it do it in the battle, if nothing else, to distract the troops? A few Master's, Darla's, Angel's, Spike's, Buffy's, Dru's, Jesse's, Joyce's, Jenny's, Caleb's running around might have been a help to its cause--whatever it was. You know, there really is no point in trying to fanwank any sense from this. Ken

2003-05-21 09:39:35-07:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (kenm47@ix.netcom.com)


"K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9382454C26F69xs10shulremoveyahooc@129.79.1.18>... > KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote in > news:n13mcvktunct2jknhfc2rc06be51esh8an@4ax.com: > > > And for the other defender of that > > "writing," nor did we ever see The First appear as more than one > > person in one location at a time. If it had such powers, odd to > > display them only once. > > It doesn't mean it couldn't, does it? Are you going to argue that those > were real ghosts in a season where a shape-shifting apparition is about? Actually I'm tired about arguing about anything. If The First could do this little trick, appear in one location as more than one dead person, why didn't it do it in the battle, if nothing else, to distract the troops? A few Master's, Darla's, Angel's, Spike's, Buffy's, Dru's, Jesse's, Joyce's, Jenny's, Caleb's running around might have been a help to its cause--whatever it was. You know, there really is no point in trying to fanwank any sense from this. Ken

2003-05-21 11:20:27-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com>: >KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote in >news:o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com: > >> And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling >> her at the same time? [snip] > >So? Again... why not? Why wouldn't the First appear to people to its best >advantage? During those first couple of episodes, it was still trying to >sell that it _was_ the ghosts of those respective persons. It's just that it was a very different KIND of apparition than *any* of the other appearances of Morphy. *Two* versions of Joyce? One where she appears to be *struggling* with something?. Of course it's possible, but none of the First's other appearance were like it. Not a single other one that we saw. Looks like the thread got dropped. Feh. So by the retroactive rules of canon, yes, it was the First, lying, trying to demoralize the troops. It could have been something better. But that way lies madness :) -- "We're taking a moment... And we're done."

2003-05-21 11:20:27-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com>: >KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote in >news:o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com: > >> And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling >> her at the same time? [snip] > >So? Again... why not? Why wouldn't the First appear to people to its best >advantage? During those first couple of episodes, it was still trying to >sell that it _was_ the ghosts of those respective persons. It's just that it was a very different KIND of apparition than *any* of the other appearances of Morphy. *Two* versions of Joyce? One where she appears to be *struggling* with something?. Of course it's possible, but none of the First's other appearance were like it. Not a single other one that we saw. Looks like the thread got dropped. Feh. So by the retroactive rules of canon, yes, it was the First, lying, trying to demoralize the troops. It could have been something better. But that way lies madness :) -- "We're taking a moment... And we're done."

2003-05-21 11:48:24+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - ("K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com>)


KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:n13mcvktunct2jknhfc2rc06be51esh8an@4ax.com: > And for the other defender of that > "writing," nor did we ever see The First appear as more than one > person in one location at a time. If it had such powers, odd to > display them only once. It doesn't mean it couldn't, does it? Are you going to argue that those were real ghosts in a season where a shape-shifting apparition is about? -- ******************************* "If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them." -Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

2003-05-21 11:48:24+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - ("K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com>)


KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:n13mcvktunct2jknhfc2rc06be51esh8an@4ax.com: > And for the other defender of that > "writing," nor did we ever see The First appear as more than one > person in one location at a time. If it had such powers, odd to > display them only once. It doesn't mean it couldn't, does it? Are you going to argue that those were real ghosts in a season where a shape-shifting apparition is about? -- ******************************* "If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them." -Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

2003-05-21 13:12:07+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Don Sample" <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:210520030157438734%dsample@synapse.net... > In article <a-7DCFFA.00212121052003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Darwin Fish > <a@a.edu> wrote: > > > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? > > It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* > I tend to agree that it was the First, rather than Joyce, but I think it actually told the truth, damn its black little heart. "When it's bad, Buffy won't choose you." Well...it got bad, and she didn't choose Dawn - *to fight beside her,* did she? Instead, she asked Xander to smuggle Dawn away. I'd say the First, like a lot of real-world evil beings, likes to take the truth and put its own spin on it, in this case to sow the seeds of discord. -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-21 13:12:07+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Don Sample" <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:210520030157438734%dsample@synapse.net... > In article <a-7DCFFA.00212121052003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Darwin Fish > <a@a.edu> wrote: > > > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? > > It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* > I tend to agree that it was the First, rather than Joyce, but I think it actually told the truth, damn its black little heart. "When it's bad, Buffy won't choose you." Well...it got bad, and she didn't choose Dawn - *to fight beside her,* did she? Instead, she asked Xander to smuggle Dawn away. I'd say the First, like a lot of real-world evil beings, likes to take the truth and put its own spin on it, in this case to sow the seeds of discord. -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-22 09:24:48-07:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (luke@onlinescam.com)


> > > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > > > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > > > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > > > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > > > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > > > > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? > > > > It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* > > > > I tend to agree that it was the First, rather than Joyce, but I think it > actually told the truth, damn its black little heart. "When it's bad, Buffy > won't choose you." Well...it got bad, and she didn't choose Dawn - *to > fight beside her,* did she? Instead, she asked Xander to smuggle Dawn away. > I'd say the First, like a lot of real-world evil beings, likes to take the > truth and put its own spin on it, in this case to sow the seeds of discord. But...thats so lame. I do thoroughly belive that there is a writing continuity error here. The whole point of dawns part in that episode was that Joyce could deliver that message. now people are trying to interpret what that actually meant? This isnt Twin Peaks. They were setting up for something great then either couldnt do it or forgot about it. Didnt Buffy say at some point that she would sacrifice Dawn if it came to it again? Personally I think that Buffy should have failed and died. She should've just broke under the pressure, paniced and tried to use Dawn somehow that would kill her. I wanted to see it all fall apart in the end, not this predictable 'we have a plan - its a long shot but it might just work...oh, look at that, it worked' rubbish. Luke

2003-05-22 09:24:48-07:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (luke@onlinescam.com)


> > > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > > > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > > > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > > > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > > > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > > > > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? > > > > It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* > > > > I tend to agree that it was the First, rather than Joyce, but I think it > actually told the truth, damn its black little heart. "When it's bad, Buffy > won't choose you." Well...it got bad, and she didn't choose Dawn - *to > fight beside her,* did she? Instead, she asked Xander to smuggle Dawn away. > I'd say the First, like a lot of real-world evil beings, likes to take the > truth and put its own spin on it, in this case to sow the seeds of discord. But...thats so lame. I do thoroughly belive that there is a writing continuity error here. The whole point of dawns part in that episode was that Joyce could deliver that message. now people are trying to interpret what that actually meant? This isnt Twin Peaks. They were setting up for something great then either couldnt do it or forgot about it. Didnt Buffy say at some point that she would sacrifice Dawn if it came to it again? Personally I think that Buffy should have failed and died. She should've just broke under the pressure, paniced and tried to use Dawn somehow that would kill her. I wanted to see it all fall apart in the end, not this predictable 'we have a plan - its a long shot but it might just work...oh, look at that, it worked' rubbish. Luke

2003-05-22 20:20:51+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message news:c485bf9f.0305220824.1c574899@posting.google.com... > > > > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > > > > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > > > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > > > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > > > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > > > > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > > > > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > > > > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > > > > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > > > > > > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? > > > > > > It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* > > > > > > > I tend to agree that it was the First, rather than Joyce, but I think it > > actually told the truth, damn its black little heart. "When it's bad, Buffy > > won't choose you." Well...it got bad, and she didn't choose Dawn - *to > > fight beside her,* did she? Instead, she asked Xander to smuggle Dawn away. > > I'd say the First, like a lot of real-world evil beings, likes to take the > > truth and put its own spin on it, in this case to sow the seeds of discord. > > But...thats so lame. I do thoroughly belive that there is a writing > continuity error here. <shrug> YMMV. It's perfectly consistent with the way we've seen the First work, all the way back to the beginning. It tempts, it plants doubts and fears, and then it *works* on those doubts and fears. > The whole point of dawns part in that episode > was that Joyce could deliver that message. now people are trying to > interpret what that actually meant? Kinda like you just did. There's no real evidence that what Dawn saw was actually Joyce. > This isnt Twin Peaks. They were > setting up for something great then either couldnt do it or forgot > about it. Again, YMMV. > Didnt Buffy say at some point that she would sacrifice Dawn if it came > to it again? Yes. > Personally I think that Buffy should have failed and died. She > should've just broke under the pressure, paniced and tried to use Dawn > somehow that would kill her. I wanted to see it all fall apart in the > end, not this predictable 'we have a plan - its a long shot but it > might just work...oh, look at that, it worked' rubbish. > Okay, so then, bottom line, it's "lame" because it's not the way you wanted the story to end. Gotcha. -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-22 20:20:51+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message news:c485bf9f.0305220824.1c574899@posting.google.com... > > > > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > > > > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > > > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling > > > > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS > > > > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > > > > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, > > > > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. > > > > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to > > > > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > > > > > > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? > > > > > > It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* > > > > > > > I tend to agree that it was the First, rather than Joyce, but I think it > > actually told the truth, damn its black little heart. "When it's bad, Buffy > > won't choose you." Well...it got bad, and she didn't choose Dawn - *to > > fight beside her,* did she? Instead, she asked Xander to smuggle Dawn away. > > I'd say the First, like a lot of real-world evil beings, likes to take the > > truth and put its own spin on it, in this case to sow the seeds of discord. > > But...thats so lame. I do thoroughly belive that there is a writing > continuity error here. <shrug> YMMV. It's perfectly consistent with the way we've seen the First work, all the way back to the beginning. It tempts, it plants doubts and fears, and then it *works* on those doubts and fears. > The whole point of dawns part in that episode > was that Joyce could deliver that message. now people are trying to > interpret what that actually meant? Kinda like you just did. There's no real evidence that what Dawn saw was actually Joyce. > This isnt Twin Peaks. They were > setting up for something great then either couldnt do it or forgot > about it. Again, YMMV. > Didnt Buffy say at some point that she would sacrifice Dawn if it came > to it again? Yes. > Personally I think that Buffy should have failed and died. She > should've just broke under the pressure, paniced and tried to use Dawn > somehow that would kill her. I wanted to see it all fall apart in the > end, not this predictable 'we have a plan - its a long shot but it > might just work...oh, look at that, it worked' rubbish. > Okay, so then, bottom line, it's "lame" because it's not the way you wanted the story to end. Gotcha. -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-23 05:17:44-07:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (luke@onlinescam.com)


"Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Ciaza.218497$JN1.3210158@news.easynews.com>... > "Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message > news:c485bf9f.0305220824.1c574899@posting.google.com... > > > > > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > > > > > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > > > > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon > stangling > > > > > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > > > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It > WAS > > > > > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > > > > > > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the > Bringers, > > > > > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its > bidding. > > > > > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, > to > > > > > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > > > > > > > > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? > > > > > > > > It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* > > > > > > > > > > I tend to agree that it was the First, rather than Joyce, but I think it > > > actually told the truth, damn its black little heart. "When it's bad, > Buffy > > > won't choose you." Well...it got bad, and she didn't choose Dawn - *to > > > fight beside her,* did she? Instead, she asked Xander to smuggle Dawn > away. > > > I'd say the First, like a lot of real-world evil beings, likes to take > the > > > truth and put its own spin on it, in this case to sow the seeds of > discord. > > > > But...thats so lame. I do thoroughly belive that there is a writing > > continuity error here. > > > <shrug> YMMV. It's perfectly consistent with the way we've seen the First > work, all the way back to the beginning. It tempts, it plants doubts and > fears, and then it *works* on those doubts and fears. But still - why is this left to the audiance to interpret this? If there was an attempted play on Dawn by the First, why was it not followed up? If it wasnt, then why did nothing come of what Joyce said? Either way, this was not mentioned again and such a big point of this episode was to deliver that message, regardless of who was delivering it. > > The whole point of dawns part in that episode > > was that Joyce could deliver that message. now people are trying to > > interpret what that actually meant? > > Kinda like you just did. There's no real evidence that what Dawn saw was > actually Joyce. > > > > This isnt Twin Peaks. They were > > setting up for something great then either couldnt do it or forgot > > about it. > > Again, YMMV. > > > > Didnt Buffy say at some point that she would sacrifice Dawn if it came > > to it again? > > Yes. > > > Personally I think that Buffy should have failed and died. She > > should've just broke under the pressure, paniced and tried to use Dawn > > somehow that would kill her. I wanted to see it all fall apart in the > > end, not this predictable 'we have a plan - its a long shot but it > > might just work...oh, look at that, it worked' rubbish. > > > > Okay, so then, bottom line, it's "lame" because it's not the way you wanted > the story to end. Gotcha. No (and yes), I think its lame because they seemed to set up for something then it wasnt really mentioned again. In all other episodes everything is explained explicitly - but not here, why? You are right in saying that one reason why I dont like it is that it didnt turn out the way that I wanted. It was just that I hoped Joss was going to do something against the grain of Hollywood, something unexpected. I guess that I had become accustomed to expecting the unexpected from this show. And in the finale, it did exactly what I thought it would do. Thats my reasoning for being dissapointed. I dont think that I'm wrong in saying that the beggining on this series was setting up for something a little more significant to occur at the end, but it did not. It is just my opinion, but I know of many people who feel the same.

2003-05-23 05:17:44-07:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (luke@onlinescam.com)


"Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Ciaza.218497$JN1.3210158@news.easynews.com>... > "Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message > news:c485bf9f.0305220824.1c574899@posting.google.com... > > > > > In article <210520030108211049%dsample@synapse.net>, > > > > > Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 > > > > > > <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon > stangling > > > > > > > her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the > > > > > > > incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It > WAS > > > > > > > more loose thread, more bad writing. > > > > > > > > > > > > The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the > Bringers, > > > > > > Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its > bidding. > > > > > > The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, > to > > > > > > set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > > > > > > > > > > What didn't Buffy chose Dawn for? Did I miss something? > > > > > > > > It was *The First* giving that message. It was *Lying!* > > > > > > > > > > I tend to agree that it was the First, rather than Joyce, but I think it > > > actually told the truth, damn its black little heart. "When it's bad, > Buffy > > > won't choose you." Well...it got bad, and she didn't choose Dawn - *to > > > fight beside her,* did she? Instead, she asked Xander to smuggle Dawn > away. > > > I'd say the First, like a lot of real-world evil beings, likes to take > the > > > truth and put its own spin on it, in this case to sow the seeds of > discord. > > > > But...thats so lame. I do thoroughly belive that there is a writing > > continuity error here. > > > <shrug> YMMV. It's perfectly consistent with the way we've seen the First > work, all the way back to the beginning. It tempts, it plants doubts and > fears, and then it *works* on those doubts and fears. But still - why is this left to the audiance to interpret this? If there was an attempted play on Dawn by the First, why was it not followed up? If it wasnt, then why did nothing come of what Joyce said? Either way, this was not mentioned again and such a big point of this episode was to deliver that message, regardless of who was delivering it. > > The whole point of dawns part in that episode > > was that Joyce could deliver that message. now people are trying to > > interpret what that actually meant? > > Kinda like you just did. There's no real evidence that what Dawn saw was > actually Joyce. > > > > This isnt Twin Peaks. They were > > setting up for something great then either couldnt do it or forgot > > about it. > > Again, YMMV. > > > > Didnt Buffy say at some point that she would sacrifice Dawn if it came > > to it again? > > Yes. > > > Personally I think that Buffy should have failed and died. She > > should've just broke under the pressure, paniced and tried to use Dawn > > somehow that would kill her. I wanted to see it all fall apart in the > > end, not this predictable 'we have a plan - its a long shot but it > > might just work...oh, look at that, it worked' rubbish. > > > > Okay, so then, bottom line, it's "lame" because it's not the way you wanted > the story to end. Gotcha. No (and yes), I think its lame because they seemed to set up for something then it wasnt really mentioned again. In all other episodes everything is explained explicitly - but not here, why? You are right in saying that one reason why I dont like it is that it didnt turn out the way that I wanted. It was just that I hoped Joss was going to do something against the grain of Hollywood, something unexpected. I guess that I had become accustomed to expecting the unexpected from this show. And in the finale, it did exactly what I thought it would do. Thats my reasoning for being dissapointed. I dont think that I'm wrong in saying that the beggining on this series was setting up for something a little more significant to occur at the end, but it did not. It is just my opinion, but I know of many people who feel the same.

2003-05-23 14:15:30-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <c485bf9f.0305230417.14b8370e@posting.google.com>, Luka <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote: > "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:<Ciaza.218497$JN1.3210158@news.easynews.com>... > > <shrug> YMMV. It's perfectly consistent with the way we've seen the First > > work, all the way back to the beginning. It tempts, it plants doubts and > > fears, and then it *works* on those doubts and fears. > > But still - why is this left to the audiance to interpret this? If > there was an attempted play on Dawn by the First, why was it not > followed up? If it wasnt, then why did nothing come of what Joyce > said? Either way, this was not mentioned again and such a big point of > this episode was to deliver that message, regardless of who was > delivering it. The First has always been sparing with its appearances, preferring to operate on people who were unaware of its nature, or the weak minded like Andrew. Once Dawn knew that the First was playing mind games with her showing up again would have been counter productive. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-23 14:15:30-04:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <c485bf9f.0305230417.14b8370e@posting.google.com>, Luka <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote: > "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:<Ciaza.218497$JN1.3210158@news.easynews.com>... > > <shrug> YMMV. It's perfectly consistent with the way we've seen the First > > work, all the way back to the beginning. It tempts, it plants doubts and > > fears, and then it *works* on those doubts and fears. > > But still - why is this left to the audiance to interpret this? If > there was an attempted play on Dawn by the First, why was it not > followed up? If it wasnt, then why did nothing come of what Joyce > said? Either way, this was not mentioned again and such a big point of > this episode was to deliver that message, regardless of who was > delivering it. The First has always been sparing with its appearances, preferring to operate on people who were unaware of its nature, or the weak minded like Andrew. Once Dawn knew that the First was playing mind games with her showing up again would have been counter productive. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-23 16:47:45-07:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (luke@onlinescam.com)


Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:<230520031415308346%dsample@synapse.net>... > In article <c485bf9f.0305230417.14b8370e@posting.google.com>, Luka > <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote: > > > "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:<Ciaza.218497$JN1.3210158@news.easynews.com>... > > > > <shrug> YMMV. It's perfectly consistent with the way we've seen the First > > > work, all the way back to the beginning. It tempts, it plants doubts and > > > fears, and then it *works* on those doubts and fears. > > > > But still - why is this left to the audiance to interpret this? If > > there was an attempted play on Dawn by the First, why was it not > > followed up? If it wasnt, then why did nothing come of what Joyce > > said? Either way, this was not mentioned again and such a big point of > > this episode was to deliver that message, regardless of who was > > delivering it. > > The First has always been sparing with its appearances, preferring to > operate on people who were unaware of its nature, or the weak minded > like Andrew. Once Dawn knew that the First was playing mind games with > her showing up again would have been counter productive. That is very true. And dont get me wrong people, the last episode was good, just not as...um, viseral as I had expected :) Back to the point: Simply due to the fact that this issue is subject to discussion and opinion implies that it was not explained well enough, or at all in my opinion. Though what you are saying is true - this is the way that the first works, so I do not necessarily disagree with you, I just would've liked the series to explain it to me is all. Also in a previous post it is stated that the nature of Joyce's appearance was so much different from the first's others that all were led to belive that it was in fact Joyce speaking, not the first. I guess this is just gonna become a debate. Oh well :) Luke

2003-05-23 16:47:45-07:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (luke@onlinescam.com)


Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:<230520031415308346%dsample@synapse.net>... > In article <c485bf9f.0305230417.14b8370e@posting.google.com>, Luka > <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote: > > > "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:<Ciaza.218497$JN1.3210158@news.easynews.com>... > > > > <shrug> YMMV. It's perfectly consistent with the way we've seen the First > > > work, all the way back to the beginning. It tempts, it plants doubts and > > > fears, and then it *works* on those doubts and fears. > > > > But still - why is this left to the audiance to interpret this? If > > there was an attempted play on Dawn by the First, why was it not > > followed up? If it wasnt, then why did nothing come of what Joyce > > said? Either way, this was not mentioned again and such a big point of > > this episode was to deliver that message, regardless of who was > > delivering it. > > The First has always been sparing with its appearances, preferring to > operate on people who were unaware of its nature, or the weak minded > like Andrew. Once Dawn knew that the First was playing mind games with > her showing up again would have been counter productive. That is very true. And dont get me wrong people, the last episode was good, just not as...um, viseral as I had expected :) Back to the point: Simply due to the fact that this issue is subject to discussion and opinion implies that it was not explained well enough, or at all in my opinion. Though what you are saying is true - this is the way that the first works, so I do not necessarily disagree with you, I just would've liked the series to explain it to me is all. Also in a previous post it is stated that the nature of Joyce's appearance was so much different from the first's others that all were led to belive that it was in fact Joyce speaking, not the first. I guess this is just gonna become a debate. Oh well :) Luke

2003-05-23 23:15:09+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message news:c485bf9f.0305230417.14b8370e@posting.google.com... > "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Ciaza.218497$JN1.3210158@news.easynews.com>... > > "Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message > > news:c485bf9f.0305220824.1c574899@posting.google.com... <snip> > > > > > But...thats so lame. I do thoroughly belive that there is a writing > > > continuity error here. > > > > > > <shrug> YMMV. It's perfectly consistent with the way we've seen the First > > work, all the way back to the beginning. It tempts, it plants doubts and > > fears, and then it *works* on those doubts and fears. > > But still - why is this left to the audiance to interpret this? If Why not? Given the way the message was delivered, and the clear intent of *every other appearance* the First made to the Scoobies and the SiTs, it doesn't seem that difficult to me. > there was an attempted play on Dawn by the First, why was it not > followed up? Maybe for the same reason it never followed up with Willow. Once they're on their guard, they're not as easily manipulated as, say, a frightened 12-year-old (Chloe.) <snip> > > > > Personally I think that Buffy should have failed and died. She > > > should've just broke under the pressure, paniced and tried to use Dawn > > > somehow that would kill her. I wanted to see it all fall apart in the > > > end, not this predictable 'we have a plan - its a long shot but it > > > might just work...oh, look at that, it worked' rubbish. > > > > > > > Okay, so then, bottom line, it's "lame" because it's not the way you wanted > > the story to end. Gotcha. > > No (and yes), I think its lame because they seemed to set up for > something then it wasnt really mentioned again. In all other episodes > everything is explained explicitly - but not here, why? Really? Like - the snowfall in "Amends" that prevents Angel from seeing the sunrise, for example? If everything else in the show is explained explicitly, there are a helluva lot of wasted threads on this newsgroup asking, "Why?" and "Why not?" and "How?" > You are right in saying that one reason why I dont like it is that it > didnt turn out the way that I wanted. It was just that I hoped Joss > was going to do something against the grain of Hollywood, something > unexpected. I guess that I had become accustomed to expecting the > unexpected from this show. And in the finale, it did exactly what I > thought it would do. Thats my reasoning for being dissapointed. > I dont think that I'm wrong in saying that the beggining on this > series was setting up for something a little more significant to occur > at the end, but it did not. It is just my opinion, but I know of many > people who feel the same. What can I say? *I'd* have been disappointed if they'd killed off the entire cast. Now, that *doesn't* mean that there aren't things I'd like to have seen some other way, but the people who didn't like Joss's script wouldn't have liked mine, either... -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-23 23:15:09+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message news:c485bf9f.0305230417.14b8370e@posting.google.com... > "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Ciaza.218497$JN1.3210158@news.easynews.com>... > > "Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message > > news:c485bf9f.0305220824.1c574899@posting.google.com... <snip> > > > > > But...thats so lame. I do thoroughly belive that there is a writing > > > continuity error here. > > > > > > <shrug> YMMV. It's perfectly consistent with the way we've seen the First > > work, all the way back to the beginning. It tempts, it plants doubts and > > fears, and then it *works* on those doubts and fears. > > But still - why is this left to the audiance to interpret this? If Why not? Given the way the message was delivered, and the clear intent of *every other appearance* the First made to the Scoobies and the SiTs, it doesn't seem that difficult to me. > there was an attempted play on Dawn by the First, why was it not > followed up? Maybe for the same reason it never followed up with Willow. Once they're on their guard, they're not as easily manipulated as, say, a frightened 12-year-old (Chloe.) <snip> > > > > Personally I think that Buffy should have failed and died. She > > > should've just broke under the pressure, paniced and tried to use Dawn > > > somehow that would kill her. I wanted to see it all fall apart in the > > > end, not this predictable 'we have a plan - its a long shot but it > > > might just work...oh, look at that, it worked' rubbish. > > > > > > > Okay, so then, bottom line, it's "lame" because it's not the way you wanted > > the story to end. Gotcha. > > No (and yes), I think its lame because they seemed to set up for > something then it wasnt really mentioned again. In all other episodes > everything is explained explicitly - but not here, why? Really? Like - the snowfall in "Amends" that prevents Angel from seeing the sunrise, for example? If everything else in the show is explained explicitly, there are a helluva lot of wasted threads on this newsgroup asking, "Why?" and "Why not?" and "How?" > You are right in saying that one reason why I dont like it is that it > didnt turn out the way that I wanted. It was just that I hoped Joss > was going to do something against the grain of Hollywood, something > unexpected. I guess that I had become accustomed to expecting the > unexpected from this show. And in the finale, it did exactly what I > thought it would do. Thats my reasoning for being dissapointed. > I dont think that I'm wrong in saying that the beggining on this > series was setting up for something a little more significant to occur > at the end, but it did not. It is just my opinion, but I know of many > people who feel the same. What can I say? *I'd* have been disappointed if they'd killed off the entire cast. Now, that *doesn't* mean that there aren't things I'd like to have seen some other way, but the people who didn't like Joss's script wouldn't have liked mine, either... -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-24 00:17:05+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message news:c485bf9f.0305231547.2d7ae3c@posting.google.com... <snip> > I guess this is just gonna become a debate. Oh well :) > Heh. Don't know why this should be any different from any other little detail... <g> -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-24 00:17:05+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message news:c485bf9f.0305231547.2d7ae3c@posting.google.com... <snip> > I guess this is just gonna become a debate. Oh well :) > Heh. Don't know why this should be any different from any other little detail... <g> -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-24 04:31:15-07:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (luke@onlinescam.com)


> > But still - why is this left to the audiance to interpret this? If > > Why not? Given the way the message was delivered, and the clear intent of > *every other appearance* the First made to the Scoobies and the SiTs, it > doesn't seem that difficult to me. > > > there was an attempted play on Dawn by the First, why was it not > > followed up? > > Maybe for the same reason it never followed up with Willow. Once they're on > their guard, they're not as easily manipulated as, say, a frightened > 12-year-old (Chloe.) > > > <snip> > > > > Okay, so then, bottom line, it's "lame" because it's not the way you > wanted > > > the story to end. Gotcha. > > > > No (and yes), I think its lame because they seemed to set up for > > something then it wasnt really mentioned again. In all other episodes > > everything is explained explicitly - but not here, why? > > Really? Like - the snowfall in "Amends" that prevents Angel from seeing the > sunrise, for example? If everything else in the show is explained > explicitly, there are a helluva lot of wasted threads on this newsgroup > asking, "Why?" and "Why not?" and "How?" > > > > You are right in saying that one reason why I dont like it is that it > > didnt turn out the way that I wanted. It was just that I hoped Joss > > was going to do something against the grain of Hollywood, something > > unexpected. I guess that I had become accustomed to expecting the > > unexpected from this show. And in the finale, it did exactly what I > > thought it would do. Thats my reasoning for being dissapointed. > > I dont think that I'm wrong in saying that the beggining on this > > series was setting up for something a little more significant to occur > > at the end, but it did not. It is just my opinion, but I know of many > > people who feel the same. > > What can I say? *I'd* have been disappointed if they'd killed off the > entire cast. Now, that *doesn't* mean that there aren't things I'd like to > have seen some other way, but the people who didn't like Joss's script > wouldn't have liked mine, either... Hmmm, I totally see your point Rowan. I dunno, I guess (like everything) its all down to opinion and to be honest, the more I think about the last episode, the more I like it. However, I think that my problem is that I wasn't left with enough closure on certain things (like the one Im babbling on about). Guess Im just a dumbass who needs everything explicitly explained to me :) Luke

2003-05-24 04:31:15-07:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (luke@onlinescam.com)


> > But still - why is this left to the audiance to interpret this? If > > Why not? Given the way the message was delivered, and the clear intent of > *every other appearance* the First made to the Scoobies and the SiTs, it > doesn't seem that difficult to me. > > > there was an attempted play on Dawn by the First, why was it not > > followed up? > > Maybe for the same reason it never followed up with Willow. Once they're on > their guard, they're not as easily manipulated as, say, a frightened > 12-year-old (Chloe.) > > > <snip> > > > > Okay, so then, bottom line, it's "lame" because it's not the way you > wanted > > > the story to end. Gotcha. > > > > No (and yes), I think its lame because they seemed to set up for > > something then it wasnt really mentioned again. In all other episodes > > everything is explained explicitly - but not here, why? > > Really? Like - the snowfall in "Amends" that prevents Angel from seeing the > sunrise, for example? If everything else in the show is explained > explicitly, there are a helluva lot of wasted threads on this newsgroup > asking, "Why?" and "Why not?" and "How?" > > > > You are right in saying that one reason why I dont like it is that it > > didnt turn out the way that I wanted. It was just that I hoped Joss > > was going to do something against the grain of Hollywood, something > > unexpected. I guess that I had become accustomed to expecting the > > unexpected from this show. And in the finale, it did exactly what I > > thought it would do. Thats my reasoning for being dissapointed. > > I dont think that I'm wrong in saying that the beggining on this > > series was setting up for something a little more significant to occur > > at the end, but it did not. It is just my opinion, but I know of many > > people who feel the same. > > What can I say? *I'd* have been disappointed if they'd killed off the > entire cast. Now, that *doesn't* mean that there aren't things I'd like to > have seen some other way, but the people who didn't like Joss's script > wouldn't have liked mine, either... Hmmm, I totally see your point Rowan. I dunno, I guess (like everything) its all down to opinion and to be honest, the more I think about the last episode, the more I like it. However, I think that my problem is that I wasn't left with enough closure on certain things (like the one Im babbling on about). Guess Im just a dumbass who needs everything explicitly explained to me :) Luke

2003-05-24 13:09:55+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message news:c485bf9f.0305240331.3756d0cc@posting.google.com... <snip> > Hmmm, I totally see your point Rowan. I dunno, I guess (like > everything) its all down to opinion and to be honest, the more I think > about the last episode, the more I like it. However, I think that my > problem is that I wasn't left with enough closure on certain things > (like the one Im babbling on about). Guess Im just a dumbass who needs > everything explicitly explained to me :) > Well, there are some things *I'd* like to have seen tied up, too, but given the open-ended way the series closed, I can live with it. Even if there's never any spin-off/movie/sequel, I can assume that *most* of those issues would be dealt with somewhere down the line in the Buffyverse - whether we actually get to see it or not. (Willow and Oz meeting on a street in Istanbul??) -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-24 13:09:55+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message news:c485bf9f.0305240331.3756d0cc@posting.google.com... <snip> > Hmmm, I totally see your point Rowan. I dunno, I guess (like > everything) its all down to opinion and to be honest, the more I think > about the last episode, the more I like it. However, I think that my > problem is that I wasn't left with enough closure on certain things > (like the one Im babbling on about). Guess Im just a dumbass who needs > everything explicitly explained to me :) > Well, there are some things *I'd* like to have seen tied up, too, but given the open-ended way the series closed, I can live with it. Even if there's never any spin-off/movie/sequel, I can assume that *most* of those issues would be dealt with somewhere down the line in the Buffyverse - whether we actually get to see it or not. (Willow and Oz meeting on a street in Istanbul??) -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-24 17:11:20-04:00 - RE: Conversations with Dead People - ("Julia M. White" <jmwhit02@mailbox.syr.edu>)


Plus the fact that Joyce was always bathed in this "heavenly (or whatever)" light, that the other manifestations of the First weren't . . . and she usually appeared (except to Dawn) in Slayer dreams . . . >===== Original Message From "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> ===== >"Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message >news:c485bf9f.0305231547.2d7ae3c@posting.google.com... ><snip> >> I guess this is just gonna become a debate. Oh well :) >> > >Heh. Don't know why this should be any different from any other little >detail... <g> > >-- >Rowan Hawthorn >

2003-05-24 17:11:20-04:00 - RE: Conversations with Dead People - ("Julia M. White" <jmwhit02@mailbox.syr.edu>)


Plus the fact that Joyce was always bathed in this "heavenly (or whatever)" light, that the other manifestations of the First weren't . . . and she usually appeared (except to Dawn) in Slayer dreams . . . >===== Original Message From "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> ===== >"Luka" <luke@onlinescam.com> wrote in message >news:c485bf9f.0305231547.2d7ae3c@posting.google.com... ><snip> >> I guess this is just gonna become a debate. Oh well :) >> > >Heh. Don't know why this should be any different from any other little >detail... <g> > >-- >Rowan Hawthorn >

2003-05-27 00:49:05+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Smelsch@nospam.com.au)


On Wed, 21 May 2003 01:24:08 -0400, KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > >>In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 >><KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >> >>> "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in >>> >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: >>> > >>> >> Hi, >>> >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about >>> >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead >>> >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. >>> >> >>> >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message >>> >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it >>> >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? >>> >> >>> >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ >>> >> Willow at the time. >>> >> >>> >> ur opinion ? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent >>> >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. >>> >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the >>> >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to >>> >please. >>> > >>> >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do >>> >we have any reason to think otherwise? >>> >>> And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling >>> her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the >>> incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS >>> more loose thread, more bad writing. >> >>The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, >>Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. >>The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to >>set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > >That's not what we saw. Not a Bringer to be seen, but lots of horror >movie spooky effects from invisible forces. Something I don't recall >The First doing elsewhere. And for the other defender of that >"writing," nor did we ever see The First appear as more than one >person in one location at a time. If it had such powers, odd to >display them only once. > In CWDP the 1st appeared at the same time to Willow as Cassie, and to Andrew as Warren. I think that Joyce's appearance WAS supposed to be different to the First's appearances because it wasn't the First. We all know that dead spirits exist in the Buffyverse so why couldn't it have really been Ghost Joyce? I feel that her appearance was quite deliberately set uo as different because they were going to go somewhere with it later on but decided against it. We probably won't know the writers intent until the DVD commentary comes out with the S.7 box-set. I was disappointed by the subsequent lack of followup (apart from some Joyce appearances in Buffy's dreams that probably WERE The 1st). H H >The UPN years are the shameful ones. The WB exec who said pass on >Season 6 (and therefore 7 too) turned out to be a genius, IMO. He/she >saw they were out of steam already. > >Ken

2003-05-27 00:49:05+00:00 - Re: Conversations with Dead People - (Smelsch@nospam.com.au)


On Wed, 21 May 2003 01:24:08 -0400, KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > >>In article <o30mcv8ap3cj2qfjbe2512fsr9osjd8knc@4ax.com>, KenM47 >><KenM47@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >> >>> "K.L." <xs10shul_remove_@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >"Clayton Chow" <stacktown@hotmail.com> wrote in >>> >news:avCya.34954$3C2.1045107@news3.calgary.shaw.ca: >>> > >>> >> Hi, >>> >> So after seeing the rest of season 7, I'm still a bit confused about >>> >> if actually the ghost of Joyce Summers in "Conversations with Dead >>> >> People" was actually Joyce Summers or was the first. >>> >> >>> >> Cause if it was actually the real Joyce, then was her message >>> >> concerning the whole coup with the potentials over Buffy, or was it >>> >> concerning the fact Buffy tried to send Dawn away ? >>> >> >>> >> I didin't think it was the First because the First was busy talking w/ >>> >> Willow at the time. >>> >> >>> >> ur opinion ? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> >It was most probably the First. It appeared to everyone with the intent >>> >of sapping their will to fight and, failing that, to fight effectively. >>> >The First as Joyce hit Buffy right where it hurt... where she felt the >>> >most guilt and where the First could exploit Buffy's willingness to >>> >please. >>> > >>> >As for the First appearing to two people at once... why the hell not? Do >>> >we have any reason to think otherwise? >>> >>> And we dismiss that it appeared as both Joyce AND a demon stangling >>> her at the same time? And we dismiss all the physical damage the >>> incorporeal "First" did to Casa Summers. It wasn't The First. It WAS >>> more loose thread, more bad writing. >> >>The First has always had corporeal minions. It's had the Bringers, >>Caleb, and no doubt dozens of other demons willing to do its bidding. >>The little dustup at Casa Summers would be easy for it to arrange, to >>set up for it's showing up at the end as Joyce. > >That's not what we saw. Not a Bringer to be seen, but lots of horror >movie spooky effects from invisible forces. Something I don't recall >The First doing elsewhere. And for the other defender of that >"writing," nor did we ever see The First appear as more than one >person in one location at a time. If it had such powers, odd to >display them only once. > In CWDP the 1st appeared at the same time to Willow as Cassie, and to Andrew as Warren. I think that Joyce's appearance WAS supposed to be different to the First's appearances because it wasn't the First. We all know that dead spirits exist in the Buffyverse so why couldn't it have really been Ghost Joyce? I feel that her appearance was quite deliberately set uo as different because they were going to go somewhere with it later on but decided against it. We probably won't know the writers intent until the DVD commentary comes out with the S.7 box-set. I was disappointed by the subsequent lack of followup (apart from some Joyce appearances in Buffy's dreams that probably WERE The 1st). H H >The UPN years are the shameful ones. The WB exec who said pass on >Season 6 (and therefore 7 too) turned out to be a genius, IMO. He/she >saw they were out of steam already. > >Ken