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2003-03-25 20:40:24-07:00 - Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com>)


There's battlelines being drawn Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a 'lofty' goal (he's wrong) Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad about it (he's wrong) Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin (he's wrong) Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret is a good idea (she's wrong) Andrew thinks that Fred guy sounds effeminate (finally, someone is right). Buffy's sparring session in the graveyard (it would give Richard way too much credit to call it a fight) was kinda fun. For all those who have felt that Cordy/Connor is squicky (and it is), now we see real true squickiness. Next week we get the laff a minute comedy riot, Sleeper (leastways that's what it looks like in the UPN promo) -- DAWN: ... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem. (deleted scene from the shooting script of BtVS:Lessons)

2003-03-25 20:40:24-07:00 - Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com>)


There's battlelines being drawn Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a 'lofty' goal (he's wrong) Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad about it (he's wrong) Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin (he's wrong) Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret is a good idea (she's wrong) Andrew thinks that Fred guy sounds effeminate (finally, someone is right). Buffy's sparring session in the graveyard (it would give Richard way too much credit to call it a fight) was kinda fun. For all those who have felt that Cordy/Connor is squicky (and it is), now we see real true squickiness. Next week we get the laff a minute comedy riot, Sleeper (leastways that's what it looks like in the UPN promo) -- DAWN: ... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem. (deleted scene from the shooting script of BtVS:Lessons)

2003-03-25 23:17:23-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >There's battlelines being drawn >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong This is a very good take on what happened but what happens to the viewers who have no one left to root for because everyone is wrong and acting like assholes to boot? Maybe we're all wrong for watching. My one hope is Faith returns and does what's right by kicking all their respective asses. Who would ever have thought after season 3 that Faith's return might herald the last chance of returning a sense of morality to the show? >Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > >Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the >eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad >about it (he's wrong) > >Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification >toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) > >Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange >reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on >Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) > >Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin >(he's wrong) > >Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret >is a good idea (she's wrong) > >Andrew thinks that Fred guy sounds effeminate (finally, someone is >right). > >Buffy's sparring session in the graveyard (it would give Richard way >too much credit to call it a fight) was kinda fun. > >For all those who have felt that Cordy/Connor is squicky (and it is), >now we see real true squickiness. > >Next week we get the laff a minute comedy riot, Sleeper (leastways >that's what it looks like in the UPN promo) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-25 23:17:23-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >There's battlelines being drawn >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong This is a very good take on what happened but what happens to the viewers who have no one left to root for because everyone is wrong and acting like assholes to boot? Maybe we're all wrong for watching. My one hope is Faith returns and does what's right by kicking all their respective asses. Who would ever have thought after season 3 that Faith's return might herald the last chance of returning a sense of morality to the show? >Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > >Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the >eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad >about it (he's wrong) > >Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification >toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) > >Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange >reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on >Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) > >Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin >(he's wrong) > >Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret >is a good idea (she's wrong) > >Andrew thinks that Fred guy sounds effeminate (finally, someone is >right). > >Buffy's sparring session in the graveyard (it would give Richard way >too much credit to call it a fight) was kinda fun. > >For all those who have felt that Cordy/Connor is squicky (and it is), >now we see real true squickiness. > >Next week we get the laff a minute comedy riot, Sleeper (leastways >that's what it looks like in the UPN promo) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-25 23:25:37-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote > (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): > > > > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > > about it (he's wrong) > > He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel > guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him just for that.

2003-03-25 23:25:37-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote > (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): > > > > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > > about it (he's wrong) > > He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel > guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him just for that.

2003-03-26 00:56:54-07:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com>)


>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>There's battlelines being drawn >>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >> >>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost (see Holtz on Angel for another version of Wood). People who believe they are engaging in evil to accomplish good are deluding themselves, all they are doing is engaging in evil. When Giles suffocated Ben, he didn't save the world, he just killed a guy. Everything we know says that if Glory couldn't get through the portal at that precise moment, she was no longer a threat. In fact, we were explicitly told just two episodes earlier that she would fade into Ben and never be able to manifest again, finally dying when he did. >>Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > >No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >doing so will save countless others? I think it's wrong to devote your life to vengeance, losing track of everything else. That was what Wood was doing. Everything he said was just justification and excuse for doing what he really wanted, which was to torture and maim (and ultimately, but only ultimately) kill Spike. If he was just high-mindedly trying to save innocents by removing a dangerous creature of evil, there were lots more effective ways to go about it than how he did in the garage. In fact, his being consumed by vengeance was what caused him to fail in his attempt. Since Holtz is no longer available, maybe the Kalderash clan should try recruiting Wood. -- DAWN: ... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem. (deleted scene from the shooting script of BtVS:Lessons)

2003-03-26 00:56:54-07:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com>)


>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>There's battlelines being drawn >>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >> >>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost (see Holtz on Angel for another version of Wood). People who believe they are engaging in evil to accomplish good are deluding themselves, all they are doing is engaging in evil. When Giles suffocated Ben, he didn't save the world, he just killed a guy. Everything we know says that if Glory couldn't get through the portal at that precise moment, she was no longer a threat. In fact, we were explicitly told just two episodes earlier that she would fade into Ben and never be able to manifest again, finally dying when he did. >>Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > >No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >doing so will save countless others? I think it's wrong to devote your life to vengeance, losing track of everything else. That was what Wood was doing. Everything he said was just justification and excuse for doing what he really wanted, which was to torture and maim (and ultimately, but only ultimately) kill Spike. If he was just high-mindedly trying to save innocents by removing a dangerous creature of evil, there were lots more effective ways to go about it than how he did in the garage. In fact, his being consumed by vengeance was what caused him to fail in his attempt. Since Holtz is no longer available, maybe the Kalderash clan should try recruiting Wood. -- DAWN: ... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem. (deleted scene from the shooting script of BtVS:Lessons)

2003-03-26 03:08:34-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Zombie Elvis <DELETE-ME-2-REPLY-robertocastillo@ameritech.net>)


For what it's worth: William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote in <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>: > There's battlelines being drawn > Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong There's a man with a cross over there Tellin' me I got to beware > > Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > > Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > 'lofty' goal (he's wrong) Paranoia strikes deep Into your life it will creep > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > about it (he's wrong) > > Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification > toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) It starts when you're always afraid Step out of line, the man come and take you away > > Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange > reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on > Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) > > Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin > (he's wrong) > > Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret > is a good idea (she's wrong) It's time we stop! Hey, what's that sound Everybody look, what's goin' down > Buffy's sparring session in the graveyard (it would give Richard way > too much credit to call it a fight) was kinda fun. Great fun. > > For all those who have felt that Cordy/Connor is squicky (and it is), > now we see real true squickiness. Most disturbing. > > Next week we get the laff a minute comedy riot, Sleeper (leastways > that's what it looks like in the UPN promo) Hey, who doesn't love bad boy Spike? -- "Now, wait a minute. You think I'm evil if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and *don't* touch them?" -- Rupert Giles Roberto Castillo robertocastillo@ameritech.net http://www.enteract.com/~castillo

2003-03-26 03:08:34-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Zombie Elvis <DELETE-ME-2-REPLY-robertocastillo@ameritech.net>)


For what it's worth: William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote in <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>: > There's battlelines being drawn > Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong There's a man with a cross over there Tellin' me I got to beware > > Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > > Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > 'lofty' goal (he's wrong) Paranoia strikes deep Into your life it will creep > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > about it (he's wrong) > > Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification > toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) It starts when you're always afraid Step out of line, the man come and take you away > > Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange > reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on > Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) > > Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin > (he's wrong) > > Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret > is a good idea (she's wrong) It's time we stop! Hey, what's that sound Everybody look, what's goin' down > Buffy's sparring session in the graveyard (it would give Richard way > too much credit to call it a fight) was kinda fun. Great fun. > > For all those who have felt that Cordy/Connor is squicky (and it is), > now we see real true squickiness. Most disturbing. > > Next week we get the laff a minute comedy riot, Sleeper (leastways > that's what it looks like in the UPN promo) Hey, who doesn't love bad boy Spike? -- "Now, wait a minute. You think I'm evil if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and *don't* touch them?" -- Rupert Giles Roberto Castillo robertocastillo@ameritech.net http://www.enteract.com/~castillo

2003-03-26 03:58:02-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <3e814f46.24775519@news.telusplanet.net>, David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote: > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson > <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > > >There's battlelines being drawn > >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > > > >Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. Not in this case. Giles screwed up. > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down > and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when > doing so will save countless others? The vampire that killed his mother died in a cave in Africa. > >Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > >eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > >about it (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. There were thousands of victims he killed who never > had a chance, including his own mother. At least it was a fair fight > with Nikki. > > > > >Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification > >toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) > > Partially. Being prepared to take losses IS good leadership. But all shes doing is making pretentious speeches. She's losing them. About the only people she hasn't alienated yet are Willow, Xander and Dawn. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-03-26 03:58:02-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <3e814f46.24775519@news.telusplanet.net>, David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote: > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson > <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > > >There's battlelines being drawn > >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > > > >Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. Not in this case. Giles screwed up. > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down > and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when > doing so will save countless others? The vampire that killed his mother died in a cave in Africa. > >Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > >eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > >about it (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. There were thousands of victims he killed who never > had a chance, including his own mother. At least it was a fair fight > with Nikki. > > > > >Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification > >toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) > > Partially. Being prepared to take losses IS good leadership. But all shes doing is making pretentious speeches. She's losing them. About the only people she hasn't alienated yet are Willow, Xander and Dawn. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-03-26 05:11:54-08:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


EGK wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson > <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > > >There's battlelines being drawn > >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > > This is a very good take on what happened but what happens to the viewers > who have no one left to root for because everyone is wrong and acting like > assholes to boot? > > Maybe we're all wrong for watching. My one hope is Faith returns and does > what's right by kicking all their respective asses. > > Who would ever have thought after season 3 that Faith's return might herald > the last chance of returning a sense of morality to the show? > I certainly wouldn't have seen it that way at the beginning of last season, but I do agree now. The writers for Angel let Faith be heroic. The Buffy writers will probably destroy her too.

2003-03-26 05:11:54-08:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


EGK wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson > <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > > >There's battlelines being drawn > >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > > This is a very good take on what happened but what happens to the viewers > who have no one left to root for because everyone is wrong and acting like > assholes to boot? > > Maybe we're all wrong for watching. My one hope is Faith returns and does > what's right by kicking all their respective asses. > > Who would ever have thought after season 3 that Faith's return might herald > the last chance of returning a sense of morality to the show? > I certainly wouldn't have seen it that way at the beginning of last season, but I do agree now. The writers for Angel let Faith be heroic. The Buffy writers will probably destroy her too.

2003-03-26 05:52:08-08:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Don Sample wrote: > > In article <3e814f46.24775519@news.telusplanet.net>, David Johnston > <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote: > > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson > > <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > > > > The vampire that killed his mother died in a cave in Africa. > No he didn't. That demon is still alive in a suppressed state in Spike, and comes to life every time Spike vamps out.

2003-03-26 05:52:08-08:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Don Sample wrote: > > In article <3e814f46.24775519@news.telusplanet.net>, David Johnston > <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote: > > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson > > <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > > > > The vampire that killed his mother died in a cave in Africa. > No he didn't. That demon is still alive in a suppressed state in Spike, and comes to life every time Spike vamps out.

2003-03-26 05:56:06-08:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (crc@crcdesign.net)


rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote in message news:<3e814f46.24775519@news.telusplanet.net>... > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson > <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > > >There's battlelines being drawn > >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > > > >Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. Especially such extreme Ends. Note that Buffy also feels this way - she just has a different opinion on the necessary means. > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down > and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when > doing so will save countless others? *May* save countless others. Also *may* be an important victory for the First. Let's not forget who made sure RW knew who killed his mother. > >Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > >eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > >about it (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. There were thousands of victims he killed who never > had a chance, including his own mother. At least it was a fair fight > with Nikki. I'm a bit ambivilent on this one. I'd say that of all the people Spike killed, the Slayers are among those he should feel least bad about. > >Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification > >toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) > > Partially. Being prepared to take losses IS good leadership. > > > > >Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange > >reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on > >Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) > > No he isn't. Buffy has boundless wells of forgiveness. > > > > >Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin > >(he's wrong) > > Maybe, maybe not. It is true that Spike had a monopoly on his > mother's attention, and Robin didn't. However, I'm not sure that > matters. Just because Spike says something, doesn't mean he > believes it. Spike has two important character traits. He's > romantically obsessive, and he's vengeful. Guess which trait > was in play? On some level I suspect he believed it. On some level he was just trying to be hurtful. And on some level he was projecting his feelings about Buffy. Slayers can have lovers, sons, sisters, friends and allies - but in the end, none of them matter. It's just the Slayer and her mission. > >Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret > >is a good idea (she's wrong) > > Oh please. That's just showing some consideration for viewers who > don't get the other station. And even in story, this is a rare occasion where the chronic lack of communication made some sense. The folks (er, at least Wesley) over on Ats didn't want Angel dead. Had Willow told Buffy what was going on she likely would have dropped Sunnydale for an LA hunting trip. Bad for Sunnydale. Bad for LA. Bad for the world. Now, had Willow failed and Faith been killed... then it would be better if Buffy had known.

2003-03-26 05:56:06-08:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (crc@crcdesign.net)


rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote in message news:<3e814f46.24775519@news.telusplanet.net>... > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson > <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > > >There's battlelines being drawn > >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > > > >Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. Especially such extreme Ends. Note that Buffy also feels this way - she just has a different opinion on the necessary means. > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down > and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when > doing so will save countless others? *May* save countless others. Also *may* be an important victory for the First. Let's not forget who made sure RW knew who killed his mother. > >Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > >eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > >about it (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. There were thousands of victims he killed who never > had a chance, including his own mother. At least it was a fair fight > with Nikki. I'm a bit ambivilent on this one. I'd say that of all the people Spike killed, the Slayers are among those he should feel least bad about. > >Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification > >toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) > > Partially. Being prepared to take losses IS good leadership. > > > > >Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange > >reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on > >Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) > > No he isn't. Buffy has boundless wells of forgiveness. > > > > >Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin > >(he's wrong) > > Maybe, maybe not. It is true that Spike had a monopoly on his > mother's attention, and Robin didn't. However, I'm not sure that > matters. Just because Spike says something, doesn't mean he > believes it. Spike has two important character traits. He's > romantically obsessive, and he's vengeful. Guess which trait > was in play? On some level I suspect he believed it. On some level he was just trying to be hurtful. And on some level he was projecting his feelings about Buffy. Slayers can have lovers, sons, sisters, friends and allies - but in the end, none of them matter. It's just the Slayer and her mission. > >Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret > >is a good idea (she's wrong) > > Oh please. That's just showing some consideration for viewers who > don't get the other station. And even in story, this is a rare occasion where the chronic lack of communication made some sense. The folks (er, at least Wesley) over on Ats didn't want Angel dead. Had Willow told Buffy what was going on she likely would have dropped Sunnydale for an LA hunting trip. Bad for Sunnydale. Bad for LA. Bad for the world. Now, had Willow failed and Faith been killed... then it would be better if Buffy had known.

2003-03-26 07:00:40+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >There's battlelines being drawn >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > >Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when doing so will save countless others? > >Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the >eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad >about it (he's wrong) No, he isn't. There were thousands of victims he killed who never had a chance, including his own mother. At least it was a fair fight with Nikki. > >Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification >toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) Partially. Being prepared to take losses IS good leadership. > >Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange >reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on >Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) No he isn't. Buffy has boundless wells of forgiveness. > >Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin >(he's wrong) Maybe, maybe not. It is true that Spike had a monopoly on his mother's attention, and Robin didn't. However, I'm not sure that matters. Just because Spike says something, doesn't mean he believes it. Spike has two important character traits. He's romantically obsessive, and he's vengeful. Guess which trait was in play? > >Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret >is a good idea (she's wrong) Oh please. That's just showing some consideration for viewers who don't get the other station.

2003-03-26 07:00:40+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >There's battlelines being drawn >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > >Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when doing so will save countless others? > >Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the >eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad >about it (he's wrong) No, he isn't. There were thousands of victims he killed who never had a chance, including his own mother. At least it was a fair fight with Nikki. > >Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification >toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) Partially. Being prepared to take losses IS good leadership. > >Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange >reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on >Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) No he isn't. Buffy has boundless wells of forgiveness. > >Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin >(he's wrong) Maybe, maybe not. It is true that Spike had a monopoly on his mother's attention, and Robin didn't. However, I'm not sure that matters. Just because Spike says something, doesn't mean he believes it. Spike has two important character traits. He's romantically obsessive, and he's vengeful. Guess which trait was in play? > >Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret >is a good idea (she's wrong) Oh please. That's just showing some consideration for viewers who don't get the other station.

2003-03-26 07:53:43-08:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


William George Ferguson wrote: > > There's battlelines being drawn > Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > > Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > > Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > 'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > about it (he's wrong) > > Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification > toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) > > Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange > reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on > Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) > > Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin > (he's wrong) > > Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret > is a good idea (she's wrong) > > Andrew thinks that Fred guy sounds effeminate (finally, someone is > right). > > Buffy's sparring session in the graveyard (it would give Richard way > too much credit to call it a fight) was kinda fun. > > For all those who have felt that Cordy/Connor is squicky (and it is), > now we see real true squickiness. > > Next week we get the laff a minute comedy riot, Sleeper (leastways > that's what it looks like in the UPN promo) > I agree with most of this post and the minor disagreements I have aren't worth the quibble.

2003-03-26 07:53:43-08:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


William George Ferguson wrote: > > There's battlelines being drawn > Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > > Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > > Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > 'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > about it (he's wrong) > > Buffy thinks overblown speeches and harshness and objectification > toward her friends and charges equals good leadership (she's wrong) > > Giles thinks that if they manage to stake Spike that (for some strange > reason) it won't completely and permanently remove them from being on > Buffy's side in the fight, as far she's concerned (he's wrong) > > Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin > (he's wrong) > > Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret > is a good idea (she's wrong) > > Andrew thinks that Fred guy sounds effeminate (finally, someone is > right). > > Buffy's sparring session in the graveyard (it would give Richard way > too much credit to call it a fight) was kinda fun. > > For all those who have felt that Cordy/Connor is squicky (and it is), > now we see real true squickiness. > > Next week we get the laff a minute comedy riot, Sleeper (leastways > that's what it looks like in the UPN promo) > I agree with most of this post and the minor disagreements I have aren't worth the quibble.

2003-03-26 08:23:25-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <260320030358029011%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <3e814f46.24775519@news.telusplanet.net>, David Johnston > <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote: > > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson > > <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > > > > >There's battlelines being drawn > > >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > > > > > >Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > > > > No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. > > Not in this case. Giles screwed up. > > > > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > > >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > > > No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down > > and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when > > doing so will save countless others? > > The vampire that killed his mother died in a cave in Africa. > No.... it still lives deep inside and only need a song to be brought forth.

2003-03-26 08:23:25-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <260320030358029011%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <3e814f46.24775519@news.telusplanet.net>, David Johnston > <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote: > > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson > > <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > > > > >There's battlelines being drawn > > >Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > > > > > >Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) > > > > No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. > > Not in this case. Giles screwed up. > > > > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > > >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > > > No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down > > and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when > > doing so will save countless others? > > The vampire that killed his mother died in a cave in Africa. > No.... it still lives deep inside and only need a song to be brought forth.

2003-03-26 08:28:11+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers >From: EGK me@privacy.net >Date: 3/25/2003 8:17 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <3aa28vc3rd017h0foqd0o9sp1dbnc8nbt1@4ax.com> > >On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson ><wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > >>There's battlelines being drawn >>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > >This is a very good take on what happened but what happens to the viewers >who have no one left to root for because everyone is wrong and acting like >assholes to boot? > We ought to be pros at this after Season 6. Me, I find it kind of a relief. I read certain spoilers that just tore my heart out of my chest and now that this silly ep has aired, my heart is back in my chest. Not caring so much about Spike is better for the psyche. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-26 08:28:11+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers >From: EGK me@privacy.net >Date: 3/25/2003 8:17 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <3aa28vc3rd017h0foqd0o9sp1dbnc8nbt1@4ax.com> > >On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson ><wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > >>There's battlelines being drawn >>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong > >This is a very good take on what happened but what happens to the viewers >who have no one left to root for because everyone is wrong and acting like >assholes to boot? > We ought to be pros at this after Season 6. Me, I find it kind of a relief. I read certain spoilers that just tore my heart out of my chest and now that this silly ep has aired, my heart is back in my chest. Not caring so much about Spike is better for the psyche. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-26 09:47:37+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 00:56:54 -0700, William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >>> >>>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) >> >rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >>No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. > >Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. >Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, >if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost Buffy uses Evil's "methods" every day by committing violence. Hell, her whole shtick is rooted in a power that is, by it's nature, Evil. (see Holtz on >Angel for another version of Wood). > >People who believe they are engaging in evil to accomplish good are >deluding themselves, all they are doing is engaging in evil. When >Giles suffocated Ben, he didn't save the world, he just killed a guy. >Everything we know says that if Glory couldn't get through the portal >at that precise moment, she was no longer a threat. In fact, we were >explicitly told just two episodes earlier that she would fade into Ben >and never be able to manifest again, finally dying when he did. I don't remember that. Not sure I buy it either. > >>>Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>>'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >> >>No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >>and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >>doing so will save countless others? > >I think it's wrong to devote your life to vengeance, losing track of >everything else. That was what Wood was doing. Everything he said >was just justification and excuse for doing what he really wanted, >which was to torture and maim (and ultimately, but only ultimately) >kill Spike. If he was just high-mindedly trying to save innocents by >removing a dangerous creature of evil, there were lots more effective >ways to go about it than how he did in the garage. It was Wood's conscience that drove him to use that particular method. By triggering Spike, he would turn Spike into a legitimate menace to be fought or at least prove that was what Spike was, that his vengeance really did serve a higher purpose. Otherwise he would have just taken out Spike on one of the occasions when Spike was unaware of the threat.

2003-03-26 09:47:37+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 00:56:54 -0700, William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >>> >>>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) >> >rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >>No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. > >Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. >Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, >if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost Buffy uses Evil's "methods" every day by committing violence. Hell, her whole shtick is rooted in a power that is, by it's nature, Evil. (see Holtz on >Angel for another version of Wood). > >People who believe they are engaging in evil to accomplish good are >deluding themselves, all they are doing is engaging in evil. When >Giles suffocated Ben, he didn't save the world, he just killed a guy. >Everything we know says that if Glory couldn't get through the portal >at that precise moment, she was no longer a threat. In fact, we were >explicitly told just two episodes earlier that she would fade into Ben >and never be able to manifest again, finally dying when he did. I don't remember that. Not sure I buy it either. > >>>Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>>'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >> >>No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >>and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >>doing so will save countless others? > >I think it's wrong to devote your life to vengeance, losing track of >everything else. That was what Wood was doing. Everything he said >was just justification and excuse for doing what he really wanted, >which was to torture and maim (and ultimately, but only ultimately) >kill Spike. If he was just high-mindedly trying to save innocents by >removing a dangerous creature of evil, there were lots more effective >ways to go about it than how he did in the garage. It was Wood's conscience that drove him to use that particular method. By triggering Spike, he would turn Spike into a legitimate menace to be fought or at least prove that was what Spike was, that his vengeance really did serve a higher purpose. Otherwise he would have just taken out Spike on one of the occasions when Spike was unaware of the threat.

2003-03-26 11:36:20-07:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (William George Ferguson <william.george.ferguson@domail.maricopa.edu>)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:13:42 GMT, Dan Solomon <dansolo@attbi.com> wrote: >William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote in >news:82m28vst1p76kbk6uosn2e0oabgolnkkom@4ax.com: > >>>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >>>> >>>>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) >>> >> rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >>>No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. >> >> Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. >> Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, >> if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost (see Holtz on >> Angel for another version of Wood). > >But isn't Buffy guilty of this as well? She was perfectly willing to >allow Spike to roam free, knowing that at any time he could fall under >the First's control and start killing people? While Buffy is right that >they need as many allies as they can, she was an idiot to keep going on >about Spikes soul, when she knew for a fact that Spike's soul did not >make him immune to the First's control. Hence 'nobody's right if everyone is wrong'. This is a case of two wrongs, not three lefts. -- "Oh Buffy, you really do need to have every square inch of your ass kicked." - Willow Rosenberg

2003-03-26 11:36:20-07:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (William George Ferguson <william.george.ferguson@domail.maricopa.edu>)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:13:42 GMT, Dan Solomon <dansolo@attbi.com> wrote: >William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote in >news:82m28vst1p76kbk6uosn2e0oabgolnkkom@4ax.com: > >>>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >>>> >>>>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) >>> >> rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >>>No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. >> >> Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. >> Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, >> if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost (see Holtz on >> Angel for another version of Wood). > >But isn't Buffy guilty of this as well? She was perfectly willing to >allow Spike to roam free, knowing that at any time he could fall under >the First's control and start killing people? While Buffy is right that >they need as many allies as they can, she was an idiot to keep going on >about Spikes soul, when she knew for a fact that Spike's soul did not >make him immune to the First's control. Hence 'nobody's right if everyone is wrong'. This is a case of two wrongs, not three lefts. -- "Oh Buffy, you really do need to have every square inch of your ass kicked." - Willow Rosenberg

2003-03-26 12:01:16-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 26 Mar 2003 08:28:11 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >>Subject: Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers >>From: EGK me@privacy.net >>Date: 3/25/2003 8:17 PM Pacific Standard Time >>Message-id: <3aa28vc3rd017h0foqd0o9sp1dbnc8nbt1@4ax.com> >> >>On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson >><wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >> >>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >> >>This is a very good take on what happened but what happens to the viewers >>who have no one left to root for because everyone is wrong and acting like >>assholes to boot? >> > >We ought to be pros at this after Season 6. > >Me, I find it kind of a relief. I read certain spoilers that just tore my >heart out of my chest and now that this silly ep has aired, my heart is back in >my chest. Not caring so much about Spike is better for the psyche. I'm resisting reading spoilers but to be honest, after this episode i'm not caring about them winning the battle any longer. This episode made me really hate Buffy and she's been on thin ice for a long while. That's what happened to me in season 6. If I no longer care about them winning then it's mostly just watching to see how it turns out for the sake of closure. That's usually when i've started to read spoilers just to get it over with. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-26 12:01:16-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 26 Mar 2003 08:28:11 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >>Subject: Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers >>From: EGK me@privacy.net >>Date: 3/25/2003 8:17 PM Pacific Standard Time >>Message-id: <3aa28vc3rd017h0foqd0o9sp1dbnc8nbt1@4ax.com> >> >>On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:40:24 -0700, William George Ferguson >><wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >> >>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >> >>This is a very good take on what happened but what happens to the viewers >>who have no one left to root for because everyone is wrong and acting like >>assholes to boot? >> > >We ought to be pros at this after Season 6. > >Me, I find it kind of a relief. I read certain spoilers that just tore my >heart out of my chest and now that this silly ep has aired, my heart is back in >my chest. Not caring so much about Spike is better for the psyche. I'm resisting reading spoilers but to be honest, after this episode i'm not caring about them winning the battle any longer. This episode made me really hate Buffy and she's been on thin ice for a long while. That's what happened to me in season 6. If I no longer care about them winning then it's mostly just watching to see how it turns out for the sake of closure. That's usually when i've started to read spoilers just to get it over with. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-26 12:05:13-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 05:11:54 -0800, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: >EGK wrote: >> Who would ever have thought after season 3 that Faith's return might herald >> the last chance of returning a sense of morality to the show? >> >I certainly wouldn't have seen it that way at the beginning of last >season, but I do agree now. The writers for Angel let Faith be heroic. >The Buffy writers will probably destroy her too. That's exactly what i was thinking when I said Faith has turned to Buffy and Buffy to Faith. They let Faith be heroic on Angel. She was no longer "ends justify the means" girl. That's now Buffy and if that's the case I don't understand what it is she's fighting the FE for any longer. She's become the FE. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-26 12:05:13-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 05:11:54 -0800, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: >EGK wrote: >> Who would ever have thought after season 3 that Faith's return might herald >> the last chance of returning a sense of morality to the show? >> >I certainly wouldn't have seen it that way at the beginning of last >season, but I do agree now. The writers for Angel let Faith be heroic. >The Buffy writers will probably destroy her too. That's exactly what i was thinking when I said Faith has turned to Buffy and Buffy to Faith. They let Faith be heroic on Angel. She was no longer "ends justify the means" girl. That's now Buffy and if that's the case I don't understand what it is she's fighting the FE for any longer. She's become the FE. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-26 18:13:42+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Dan Solomon <dansolo@attbi.com>)


William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote in news:82m28vst1p76kbk6uosn2e0oabgolnkkom@4ax.com: >>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >>> >>>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) >> > rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >>No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. > > Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. > Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, > if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost (see Holtz on > Angel for another version of Wood). But isn't Buffy guilty of this as well? She was perfectly willing to allow Spike to roam free, knowing that at any time he could fall under the First's control and start killing people? While Buffy is right that they need as many allies as they can, she was an idiot to keep going on about Spikes soul, when she knew for a fact that Spike's soul did not make him immune to the First's control. -- Dan Solomon

2003-03-26 18:13:42+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Dan Solomon <dansolo@attbi.com>)


William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote in news:82m28vst1p76kbk6uosn2e0oabgolnkkom@4ax.com: >>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >>> >>>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) >> > rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >>No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. > > Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. > Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, > if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost (see Holtz on > Angel for another version of Wood). But isn't Buffy guilty of this as well? She was perfectly willing to allow Spike to roam free, knowing that at any time he could fall under the First's control and start killing people? While Buffy is right that they need as many allies as they can, she was an idiot to keep going on about Spikes soul, when she knew for a fact that Spike's soul did not make him immune to the First's control. -- Dan Solomon

2003-03-26 19:46:46-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <3E8245E2.39F9D613@yahoo.com>, AliceFromHell <alicefrommyclotheshell@yahoo.com> wrote: > Darwin Fish wrote: > > > In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, > > LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote > > > (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): > > > > > > > > > > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > > > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > > > > about it (he's wrong) > > > > > > He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel > > > guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. > > > > But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him > > just for that. > > He didn't have to take the coat, he could have taken any number of body parts > to carry around as a trophy. I approve of the coat. > The demon could have. But for Spike to have taken the coat, last night, shows he does not give a damn. Wood is alive because Spike realized Buffy would have killed if he had died. Taking the coat was just a way for Spike to rub Wood's failure in his face. Wood believed that Spike was still a danger to the group because of the First, now he thinks that Spike is simply a monster.

2003-03-26 19:46:46-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <3E8245E2.39F9D613@yahoo.com>, AliceFromHell <alicefrommyclotheshell@yahoo.com> wrote: > Darwin Fish wrote: > > > In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, > > LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote > > > (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): > > > > > > > > > > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > > > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > > > > about it (he's wrong) > > > > > > He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel > > > guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. > > > > But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him > > just for that. > > He didn't have to take the coat, he could have taken any number of body parts > to carry around as a trophy. I approve of the coat. > The demon could have. But for Spike to have taken the coat, last night, shows he does not give a damn. Wood is alive because Spike realized Buffy would have killed if he had died. Taking the coat was just a way for Spike to rub Wood's failure in his face. Wood believed that Spike was still a danger to the group because of the First, now he thinks that Spike is simply a monster.

2003-03-26 21:33:24-07:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com>)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:47:37 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 00:56:54 -0700, William George Ferguson ><wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > >>>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >>>> >>>>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) >>> >>rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >>>No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. >> >>Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. >>Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, >>if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost > >Buffy uses Evil's "methods" every day by committing violence. >Hell, her whole shtick is rooted in a power that is, by it's nature, >Evil. The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or 'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety of your family or tribe, that it is okay to rape and murder the enemy women in Kosovo, if the end is to establish a safe homeland for your people, and, well, that's where 'the ends justify the means' leads. The fact they they are 'them' and you are 'you' doesn't make it okay for you to take that position when it's wrong for them. If it's wrong, it's wrong. Specifically, Giles talks about 'hard choices', and sometimes hard choices are necessary, but hard choices aren't the same as evil actions. When Wood set up and and executed the trap in his garage, complete with 'trigger song' and cestas, he wasn't making a hard choice to try and accomplish good, he was making a very easy choice to go after vengeances, damn all costs. >(see Holtz on >>Angel for another version of Wood). >> >>People who believe they are engaging in evil to accomplish good are >>deluding themselves, all they are doing is engaging in evil. When >>Giles suffocated Ben, he didn't save the world, he just killed a guy. >>Everything we know says that if Glory couldn't get through the portal >>at that precise moment, she was no longer a threat. In fact, we were >>explicitly told just two episodes earlier that she would fade into Ben >>and never be able to manifest again, finally dying when he did. > >I don't remember that. Not sure I buy it either. Why? Everything in the last half of season 5, established that Glory was on a tight schedule. The entire strategy of the fight the scoobies put up in The Gift was based on the recognition that delay and prevention of the bloodletting from occurring at sunrise was sufficient to defeat Glory. The didn't have to beat her, just delay her until it was too late to do the ritual. The least two episodes, they showed us Glory losing control and being less able to hold her manifestation without being over-ridden by Ben. Everything we saw and heard supported what Gregor told Ben, that if Glory was unable to use the key at that point, she would fade back into her human atavar and be lost. Understand, I'm not defending Spike or Buffy here, there are no heroes in this piece. As I, and Steven Stills, said, nobody's right if everyone is wrong. -- DAWN: ... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem. (deleted scene from the shooting script of BtVS:Lessons)

2003-03-26 21:33:24-07:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com>)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:47:37 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 00:56:54 -0700, William George Ferguson ><wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: > >>>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >>>> >>>>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) >>> >>rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >>>No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. >> >>Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. >>Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, >>if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost > >Buffy uses Evil's "methods" every day by committing violence. >Hell, her whole shtick is rooted in a power that is, by it's nature, >Evil. The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or 'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety of your family or tribe, that it is okay to rape and murder the enemy women in Kosovo, if the end is to establish a safe homeland for your people, and, well, that's where 'the ends justify the means' leads. The fact they they are 'them' and you are 'you' doesn't make it okay for you to take that position when it's wrong for them. If it's wrong, it's wrong. Specifically, Giles talks about 'hard choices', and sometimes hard choices are necessary, but hard choices aren't the same as evil actions. When Wood set up and and executed the trap in his garage, complete with 'trigger song' and cestas, he wasn't making a hard choice to try and accomplish good, he was making a very easy choice to go after vengeances, damn all costs. >(see Holtz on >>Angel for another version of Wood). >> >>People who believe they are engaging in evil to accomplish good are >>deluding themselves, all they are doing is engaging in evil. When >>Giles suffocated Ben, he didn't save the world, he just killed a guy. >>Everything we know says that if Glory couldn't get through the portal >>at that precise moment, she was no longer a threat. In fact, we were >>explicitly told just two episodes earlier that she would fade into Ben >>and never be able to manifest again, finally dying when he did. > >I don't remember that. Not sure I buy it either. Why? Everything in the last half of season 5, established that Glory was on a tight schedule. The entire strategy of the fight the scoobies put up in The Gift was based on the recognition that delay and prevention of the bloodletting from occurring at sunrise was sufficient to defeat Glory. The didn't have to beat her, just delay her until it was too late to do the ritual. The least two episodes, they showed us Glory losing control and being less able to hold her manifestation without being over-ridden by Ben. Everything we saw and heard supported what Gregor told Ben, that if Glory was unable to use the key at that point, she would fade back into her human atavar and be lost. Understand, I'm not defending Spike or Buffy here, there are no heroes in this piece. As I, and Steven Stills, said, nobody's right if everyone is wrong. -- DAWN: ... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem. (deleted scene from the shooting script of BtVS:Lessons)

2003-03-27 00:29:33+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (AliceFromHell <alicefrommyclotheshell@yahoo.com>)


Darwin Fish wrote: > In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, > LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote > > (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): > > > > > > > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > > > about it (he's wrong) > > > > He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel > > guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. > > But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him > just for that. He didn't have to take the coat, he could have taken any number of body parts to carry around as a trophy. I approve of the coat. -- Remove my clothes to reply. "Love isn't brains, children, it's blood: blood screaming inside you to work its will." --Spike, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," season 03, episode 08, "Lover's Walk"

2003-03-27 00:29:33+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (AliceFromHell <alicefrommyclotheshell@yahoo.com>)


Darwin Fish wrote: > In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, > LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote > > (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): > > > > > > > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > > > about it (he's wrong) > > > > He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel > > guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. > > But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him > just for that. He didn't have to take the coat, he could have taken any number of body parts to carry around as a trophy. I approve of the coat. -- Remove my clothes to reply. "Love isn't brains, children, it's blood: blood screaming inside you to work its will." --Spike, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," season 03, episode 08, "Lover's Walk"

2003-03-27 01:28:08-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (FakeAddress@aol.com)


Alicat wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:25:37 -0600, Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote: > > >In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, > > LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote > >> (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): > >> > >> > > >> > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > >> > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > >> > about it (he's wrong) > >> > >> He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel > >> guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. > > > >But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him > >just for that. > What is it with everyone and the bloody coat???? > > Spike makes it clear that he really, really likes that coat. Not as a > sign of victory (because he comments on it before he defeats Nikki) > but as just an attractive item of clothing. > > So, of course he is going to keep it! I have lots of clothing that is > "previously owned" and lots of antique jewelry that was obviously worn > by other people before me. I really don't care what the story is > behind this stuff (I'm not superstitious and I don't think that a > material object can be "invested" or "haunted" by other people's > energy or whatever). Assuming that our souled Spike doesn't need to > feel especial remorse about Nikki (and I think he doesn't, as she was > a Slayer and therefore a combatant, not an innocent victim), why not > keep the coat since it looks so good and its not going to fit Wood > anyway? :) > adios, > alicat I think people are missing the significance of the coat. In "Beneath You" (in the church) Spike makes a big deal out of having changed his shirt in an attempt to be a new person. Then after Buffy yells at him for being a wimp (forget which ep.), the first thing he does (in order to turn himself into a warrior again) is go find the coat in the school basement. Psychologically, I think he needs the coat to be bring out Warrior Spike (rather than remorseful incapacitated Spike) and be ready for the upcoming fight. Not that they'll do it, but a great gesture would be him returning the coat to Wood once the fight is over and he no longer needs it. - FA

2003-03-27 01:28:08-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (FakeAddress@aol.com)


Alicat wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:25:37 -0600, Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote: > > >In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, > > LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote > >> (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): > >> > >> > > >> > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > >> > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > >> > about it (he's wrong) > >> > >> He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel > >> guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. > > > >But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him > >just for that. > What is it with everyone and the bloody coat???? > > Spike makes it clear that he really, really likes that coat. Not as a > sign of victory (because he comments on it before he defeats Nikki) > but as just an attractive item of clothing. > > So, of course he is going to keep it! I have lots of clothing that is > "previously owned" and lots of antique jewelry that was obviously worn > by other people before me. I really don't care what the story is > behind this stuff (I'm not superstitious and I don't think that a > material object can be "invested" or "haunted" by other people's > energy or whatever). Assuming that our souled Spike doesn't need to > feel especial remorse about Nikki (and I think he doesn't, as she was > a Slayer and therefore a combatant, not an innocent victim), why not > keep the coat since it looks so good and its not going to fit Wood > anyway? :) > adios, > alicat I think people are missing the significance of the coat. In "Beneath You" (in the church) Spike makes a big deal out of having changed his shirt in an attempt to be a new person. Then after Buffy yells at him for being a wimp (forget which ep.), the first thing he does (in order to turn himself into a warrior again) is go find the coat in the school basement. Psychologically, I think he needs the coat to be bring out Warrior Spike (rather than remorseful incapacitated Spike) and be ready for the upcoming fight. Not that they'll do it, but a great gesture would be him returning the coat to Wood once the fight is over and he no longer needs it. - FA

2003-03-27 04:03:20+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Aethelrede <aethelrede@worldnet.att.net>)


AliceFromHell wrote in message <3E8245E2.39F9D613@yahoo.com>... > > >Darwin Fish wrote: > >> In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, >> LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: >> >> > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote >> > (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): >> > >> > > >> > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the >> > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad >> > > about it (he's wrong) >> > >> > He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel >> > guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. >> >> But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him >> just for that. > >He didn't have to take the coat, he could have taken any number of body parts >to carry around as a trophy. I approve of the coat. It's certainly stylish and wears better than Slayer parts would: 30 and 100 year old ears wouldn't be nice, and teeth take too long to remove and they're a bugger to get clean. Besides, that coat was so much of what made Spike's character, along with the hair. That led to one of my favourite lines: "What is that, and why is its hair that colour?".

2003-03-27 04:03:20+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Aethelrede <aethelrede@worldnet.att.net>)


AliceFromHell wrote in message <3E8245E2.39F9D613@yahoo.com>... > > >Darwin Fish wrote: > >> In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, >> LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: >> >> > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote >> > (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): >> > >> > > >> > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the >> > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad >> > > about it (he's wrong) >> > >> > He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel >> > guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. >> >> But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him >> just for that. > >He didn't have to take the coat, he could have taken any number of body parts >to carry around as a trophy. I approve of the coat. It's certainly stylish and wears better than Slayer parts would: 30 and 100 year old ears wouldn't be nice, and teeth take too long to remove and they're a bugger to get clean. Besides, that coat was so much of what made Spike's character, along with the hair. That led to one of my favourite lines: "What is that, and why is its hair that colour?".

2003-03-27 04:49:40-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> This episode made me really hate Buffy... How so?

2003-03-27 04:49:40-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> This episode made me really hate Buffy... How so?

2003-03-27 04:49:47-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> >...just tore my heart out of my chest and now that this silly ep has aired, my heart is back in my chest... Why? >> Not caring so much about Spike is better for the psyche... How so, not caring for Spike?

2003-03-27 04:49:47-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> >...just tore my heart out of my chest and now that this silly ep has aired, my heart is back in my chest... Why? >> Not caring so much about Spike is better for the psyche... How so, not caring for Spike?

2003-03-27 05:00:58-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk > doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends > justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a > puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to > say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or > 'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes > into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety > of your family or tribe, that it is okay to rape and murder the enemy > women in Kosovo, if the end is to establish a safe homeland for your > people, and, well, that's where 'the ends justify the means' leads. You are using the evil/negative connotation of the phrase 'the ends justify the means'. The phrase applies to busting your ass in the gym to get in shape. The ends, being in shape/looking good, justify the means, physical hell. Or to apply it to a more military context, all officers need to understand that the decisions they make are based on the ends justifying the means. The officer might need to sacrifice a man or two to save the whole platoon. If they do not do it then they are deficient commanders. Or, in Buffy's context, it is ok to sacrifice Andrew, a potential, Spike, Wood, Giles, Herself, or even <gasp> Dawn, if it means saving the world. Ten lives are worth more than one, trillions are definately worth more than a few...

2003-03-27 05:00:58-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk > doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends > justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a > puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to > say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or > 'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes > into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety > of your family or tribe, that it is okay to rape and murder the enemy > women in Kosovo, if the end is to establish a safe homeland for your > people, and, well, that's where 'the ends justify the means' leads. You are using the evil/negative connotation of the phrase 'the ends justify the means'. The phrase applies to busting your ass in the gym to get in shape. The ends, being in shape/looking good, justify the means, physical hell. Or to apply it to a more military context, all officers need to understand that the decisions they make are based on the ends justifying the means. The officer might need to sacrifice a man or two to save the whole platoon. If they do not do it then they are deficient commanders. Or, in Buffy's context, it is ok to sacrifice Andrew, a potential, Spike, Wood, Giles, Herself, or even <gasp> Dawn, if it means saving the world. Ten lives are worth more than one, trillions are definately worth more than a few...

2003-03-27 05:02:40-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> ... and only need a song to be brought forth. Not anymore...

2003-03-27 05:02:40-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> ... and only need a song to be brought forth. Not anymore...

2003-03-27 05:08:52-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > about it (he's wrong) Actually, I kind of agree with that... The slayer knows what she is getting into and he was William the Bloody then, now he is just William [mostly]. > Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin > (he's wrong) You do not know that for sure. It is not possible to know... > Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret > is a good idea (she's wrong) It is/was. If Buffy knew she would have run off to LA with Willow. She was needed there [mainly to stop Spike from being killed] and would have messed things up in LA anyway.

2003-03-27 05:08:52-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > about it (he's wrong) Actually, I kind of agree with that... The slayer knows what she is getting into and he was William the Bloody then, now he is just William [mostly]. > Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin > (he's wrong) You do not know that for sure. It is not possible to know... > Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret > is a good idea (she's wrong) It is/was. If Buffy knew she would have run off to LA with Willow. She was needed there [mainly to stop Spike from being killed] and would have messed things up in LA anyway.

2003-03-27 05:11:05-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down > and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when > doing so will save countless others? How will killing Spike save anyone? If he wants to save people he should be trying to cure Spike so the FE can't control him. Wood killing Spike is exactly what the FE wants...

2003-03-27 05:11:05-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down > and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when > doing so will save countless others? How will killing Spike save anyone? If he wants to save people he should be trying to cure Spike so the FE can't control him. Wood killing Spike is exactly what the FE wants...

2003-03-27 07:29:22+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 21:33:24 -0700, William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:47:37 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David >Johnston) wrote: > >>On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 00:56:54 -0700, William George Ferguson >><wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >> >>>>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>>>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >>>>> >>>>>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) >>>> >>>rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >>>>No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. >>> >>>Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. >>>Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, >>>if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost >> >>Buffy uses Evil's "methods" every day by committing violence. >>Hell, her whole shtick is rooted in a power that is, by it's nature, >>Evil. > >The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk >doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends >justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a >puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to >say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or >'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes >into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety >of your family or tribe, That of course depends on whether your means actually work to reach that end. >Specifically, Giles talks about 'hard choices', and sometimes hard >choices are necessary, but hard choices aren't the same as evil >actions. When Wood set up and and executed the trap in his garage, >complete with 'trigger song' and cestas, he wasn't making a hard >choice to try and accomplish good, he was making a very easy choice to >go after vengeances, damn all costs. I wasn't talking about Wood. Wood was wrong, because the course he chose was inefficient and therefore likely to fail. > >>(see Holtz on >>>Angel for another version of Wood). >>> >>>People who believe they are engaging in evil to accomplish good are >>>deluding themselves, all they are doing is engaging in evil. When >>>Giles suffocated Ben, he didn't save the world, he just killed a guy. >>>Everything we know says that if Glory couldn't get through the portal >>>at that precise moment, she was no longer a threat. In fact, we were >>>explicitly told just two episodes earlier that she would fade into Ben >>>and never be able to manifest again, finally dying when he did. >> >>I don't remember that. Not sure I buy it either. > >Why? Everything in the last half of season 5, established that Glory >was on a tight schedule. The entire strategy of the fight the >scoobies put up in The Gift was based on the recognition that delay >and prevention of the bloodletting from occurring at sunrise was >sufficient to defeat Glory. The didn't have to beat her, just delay >her until it was too late to do the ritual. The least two episodes, >they showed us Glory losing control and being less able to hold her >manifestation without being over-ridden by Ben. I don't remember that either. Glory was increasingly capable of suppressing Ben for longer periods as I recall it.

2003-03-27 07:29:22+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 21:33:24 -0700, William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:47:37 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David >Johnston) wrote: > >>On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 00:56:54 -0700, William George Ferguson >><wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >> >>>>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote: >>>>>There's battlelines being drawn >>>>>Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong >>>>> >>>>>Giles thinks the ends justify the means (he's wrong) >>>> >>>rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >>>>No, he isn't. Ends can justify means. >>> >>>Buffy and Giles live in a universe where 'Good' and 'Evil' exist. >>>Buffy is engaged in a moral battle against 'Evil'. In such a battle, >>>if you use 'Evil's methods, you've become evil, and lost >> >>Buffy uses Evil's "methods" every day by committing violence. >>Hell, her whole shtick is rooted in a power that is, by it's nature, >>Evil. > >The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk >doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends >justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a >puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to >say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or >'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes >into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety >of your family or tribe, That of course depends on whether your means actually work to reach that end. >Specifically, Giles talks about 'hard choices', and sometimes hard >choices are necessary, but hard choices aren't the same as evil >actions. When Wood set up and and executed the trap in his garage, >complete with 'trigger song' and cestas, he wasn't making a hard >choice to try and accomplish good, he was making a very easy choice to >go after vengeances, damn all costs. I wasn't talking about Wood. Wood was wrong, because the course he chose was inefficient and therefore likely to fail. > >>(see Holtz on >>>Angel for another version of Wood). >>> >>>People who believe they are engaging in evil to accomplish good are >>>deluding themselves, all they are doing is engaging in evil. When >>>Giles suffocated Ben, he didn't save the world, he just killed a guy. >>>Everything we know says that if Glory couldn't get through the portal >>>at that precise moment, she was no longer a threat. In fact, we were >>>explicitly told just two episodes earlier that she would fade into Ben >>>and never be able to manifest again, finally dying when he did. >> >>I don't remember that. Not sure I buy it either. > >Why? Everything in the last half of season 5, established that Glory >was on a tight schedule. The entire strategy of the fight the >scoobies put up in The Gift was based on the recognition that delay >and prevention of the bloodletting from occurring at sunrise was >sufficient to defeat Glory. The didn't have to beat her, just delay >her until it was too late to do the ritual. The least two episodes, >they showed us Glory losing control and being less able to hold her >manifestation without being over-ridden by Ben. I don't remember that either. Glory was increasingly capable of suppressing Ben for longer periods as I recall it.

2003-03-27 08:31:59-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <b5uinn$6kp$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, "Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: > > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > > >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > > > No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down > > and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when > > doing so will save countless others? > > > > How will killing Spike save anyone? If he wants to save people he should be > trying to cure Spike so the FE can't control him. Wood killing Spike is > exactly what the FE wants... Giles wanted to help Spike. But Buffy stopped them. Since Buffy wouldn't left them do what was needed to cure Spike and continued to treat him as if he wasn't a threat to everyone Wood and Giles had little choice but to try and kill him. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim!

2003-03-27 08:31:59-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <b5uinn$6kp$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, "Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: > > >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a > > >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) > > > > No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down > > and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when > > doing so will save countless others? > > > > How will killing Spike save anyone? If he wants to save people he should be > trying to cure Spike so the FE can't control him. Wood killing Spike is > exactly what the FE wants... Giles wanted to help Spike. But Buffy stopped them. Since Buffy wouldn't left them do what was needed to cure Spike and continued to treat him as if he wasn't a threat to everyone Wood and Giles had little choice but to try and kill him. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim!

2003-03-27 08:33:49-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <b5uijl$6kc$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, "Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > > about it (he's wrong) > > > Actually, I kind of agree with that... The slayer knows what she is getting > into and he was William the Bloody then, now he is just William [mostly]. > > > > Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin > > (he's wrong) > > > You do not know that for sure. It is not possible to know... > > > > Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret > > is a good idea (she's wrong) > > > It is/was. If Buffy knew she would have run off to LA with Willow. She was > needed there [mainly to stop Spike from being killed] and would have messed > things up in LA anyway. Actually, if Buffy wasn't there Giles might have been able to work with Spike and force the issue about him Mom and detrigger him. Buffy was the one that forced everyone's hands. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim!

2003-03-27 08:33:49-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <b5uijl$6kc$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, "Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad > > about it (he's wrong) > > > Actually, I kind of agree with that... The slayer knows what she is getting > into and he was William the Bloody then, now he is just William [mostly]. > > > > Spike thinks that his mother loved him more than Nikki loved Robin > > (he's wrong) > > > You do not know that for sure. It is not possible to know... > > > > Willow thinks keeping important facts (the Angel/Faith stuff) a secret > > is a good idea (she's wrong) > > > It is/was. If Buffy knew she would have run off to LA with Willow. She was > needed there [mainly to stop Spike from being killed] and would have messed > things up in LA anyway. Actually, if Buffy wasn't there Giles might have been able to work with Spike and force the issue about him Mom and detrigger him. Buffy was the one that forced everyone's hands. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim!

2003-03-27 08:34:37-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <b5ui7u$6iu$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, "Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: > > ... and only need a song to be brought forth. > > > > Not anymore... > > But Wood and Giles didn't know that, which is the whole point.

2003-03-27 08:34:37-06:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <b5ui7u$6iu$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, "Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: > > ... and only need a song to be brought forth. > > > > Not anymore... > > But Wood and Giles didn't know that, which is the whole point.

2003-03-27 09:11:44-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Tante Joan <tantejoan@SoftHome.net>)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:46:46 -0600, Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote: >In article <3E8245E2.39F9D613@yahoo.com>, > AliceFromHell <alicefrommyclotheshell@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Darwin Fish wrote: >> >> > In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, >> > LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: >> > >> > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote >> > > (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): >> > > >> > > > >> > > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the >> > > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad >> > > > about it (he's wrong) >> > > >> > > He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel >> > > guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. >> > >> > But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him >> > just for that. >> >> He didn't have to take the coat, he could have taken any number of body parts >> to carry around as a trophy. I approve of the coat. >> > >The demon could have. But for Spike to have taken the coat, last night, >shows he does not give a damn. Wood is alive because Spike realized >Buffy would have killed if he had died. Taking the coat was just a way >for Spike to rub Wood's failure in his face. Wood believed that Spike >was still a danger to the group because of the First, now he thinks that >Spike is simply a monster. Geez Louise! The coat, by now, is as much tied to who Spike is, or was, as it is to Nikki Wood. To her, in life, is was just a freaking coat, after all. To Spike the Big Bad with two Slayers' deaths to his credit (or debit), the coat was a trophy of an exhilarating kill. Spike has progressed far beyond that point, which even Robin Wood recognized: he had to activate the trigger FE implanted in ensouled Spike in order to recreate the conditions under which he could kill his mother's murderer. That was, IMO, a despicable act perpetrated by an obsessed human, one the state of whose soul is fairly iffy. To me, Spike's taking back the coat was as much about redressing his own loss of self -- his new self -- in the face of humiliation and betrayal by a supposed ally. Coat, shmoat. I simply don't understand how taking back Nikki Wood's coat is an act so heinous as to forever besmirch Spike in the minds of his former adherents. TJ posting to all and Sundry [Who he? He helps me shave my legs with Occam's Razor]

2003-03-27 09:11:44-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Tante Joan <tantejoan@SoftHome.net>)


On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:46:46 -0600, Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote: >In article <3E8245E2.39F9D613@yahoo.com>, > AliceFromHell <alicefrommyclotheshell@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Darwin Fish wrote: >> >> > In article <0001HW.BAA69175002AF3FB07ACE990@news-server.nc.rr.com>, >> > LyndaNP <LyndaNP@nospam.com> wrote: >> > >> > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:40:24 -0500, William George Ferguson wrote >> > > (in message <ja728v0oalbpnc84n7ejueq5mk0ili8v7n@4ax.com>): >> > > >> > > > >> > > > Spike thinks that since killing Nikki Wood was just part of the >> > > > eternal dance between Slayer and vampire, he doesn't need to feel bad >> > > > about it (he's wrong) >> > > >> > > He is right as ge is a different person now....he should not feel >> > > guilty about that as he is not the person he is now. >> > >> > But he shouldn't have walked off with her coat. Wood should kill him >> > just for that. >> >> He didn't have to take the coat, he could have taken any number of body parts >> to carry around as a trophy. I approve of the coat. >> > >The demon could have. But for Spike to have taken the coat, last night, >shows he does not give a damn. Wood is alive because Spike realized >Buffy would have killed if he had died. Taking the coat was just a way >for Spike to rub Wood's failure in his face. Wood believed that Spike >was still a danger to the group because of the First, now he thinks that >Spike is simply a monster. Geez Louise! The coat, by now, is as much tied to who Spike is, or was, as it is to Nikki Wood. To her, in life, is was just a freaking coat, after all. To Spike the Big Bad with two Slayers' deaths to his credit (or debit), the coat was a trophy of an exhilarating kill. Spike has progressed far beyond that point, which even Robin Wood recognized: he had to activate the trigger FE implanted in ensouled Spike in order to recreate the conditions under which he could kill his mother's murderer. That was, IMO, a despicable act perpetrated by an obsessed human, one the state of whose soul is fairly iffy. To me, Spike's taking back the coat was as much about redressing his own loss of self -- his new self -- in the face of humiliation and betrayal by a supposed ally. Coat, shmoat. I simply don't understand how taking back Nikki Wood's coat is an act so heinous as to forever besmirch Spike in the minds of his former adherents. TJ posting to all and Sundry [Who he? He helps me shave my legs with Occam's Razor]

2003-03-27 12:46:02-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:25:20 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:11:05 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" ><Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: > >>> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>> >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >>> >>> No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >>> and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >>> doing so will save countless others? >> >> >> >>How will killing Spike save anyone? > >That is not the issue. The issue is whether it is okay to seek >vengeance as long as it can tie into a more important goal. >Wood was wrong in this case, primarily because he was letting >the First Evil put thoughts into his head. But vengeance can >be justified, if the act of vengeance really does serve a higher >cause. I didn't get the impression the First put any thoughts in Wood's head. The First merely showed Wood who it was who killed his mother. All the thoughts of revenge had already been there for a long time. Did you miss Wood talking about how he had searched for his mother's killer for a long time but never found him? That was the whole reason he had become a vampire hunter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-27 12:46:02-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:25:20 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:11:05 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" ><Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: > >>> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>> >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >>> >>> No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >>> and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >>> doing so will save countless others? >> >> >> >>How will killing Spike save anyone? > >That is not the issue. The issue is whether it is okay to seek >vengeance as long as it can tie into a more important goal. >Wood was wrong in this case, primarily because he was letting >the First Evil put thoughts into his head. But vengeance can >be justified, if the act of vengeance really does serve a higher >cause. I didn't get the impression the First put any thoughts in Wood's head. The First merely showed Wood who it was who killed his mother. All the thoughts of revenge had already been there for a long time. Did you miss Wood talking about how he had searched for his mother's killer for a long time but never found him? That was the whole reason he had become a vampire hunter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-27 13:55:34-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com>)


In article <b5ui4s$6il$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com says... > > The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk > > doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends > > justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a > > puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to > > say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or > > 'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes > > into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety > > of your family or tribe, that it is okay to rape and murder the enemy > > women in Kosovo, if the end is to establish a safe homeland for your > > people, and, well, that's where 'the ends justify the means' leads. > > > > You are using the evil/negative connotation of the phrase 'the ends justify > the means'. The phrase applies to busting your ass in the gym to get in > shape. The ends, being in shape/looking good, justify the means, physical > hell. Or to apply it to a more military context, all officers need to > understand that the decisions they make are based on the ends justifying the > means. The officer might need to sacrifice a man or two to save the whole > platoon. If they do not do it then they are deficient commanders. Or, in > Buffy's context, it is ok to sacrifice Andrew, a potential, Spike, Wood, > Giles, Herself, or even <gasp> Dawn, if it means saving the world. Ten > lives are worth more than one, trillions are definately worth more than a > few... > That's not what the phrase 'The ends justify the means' mean. In fact, the phrase is usually used in reverse, as in 'The ends don't justify the means'. It doesn't have anything to do with giving up something to gain something else, you don't 'justify' that at all. That's just a trade off. To 'justify' something, you have to give a reason for it, you have to explain why you did it and why it was okay to do. Saying 'The ends justify the means' means you're allowing any methods as long as the desired end was reached.

2003-03-27 13:55:34-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com>)


In article <b5ui4s$6il$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com says... > > The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk > > doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends > > justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a > > puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to > > say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or > > 'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes > > into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety > > of your family or tribe, that it is okay to rape and murder the enemy > > women in Kosovo, if the end is to establish a safe homeland for your > > people, and, well, that's where 'the ends justify the means' leads. > > > > You are using the evil/negative connotation of the phrase 'the ends justify > the means'. The phrase applies to busting your ass in the gym to get in > shape. The ends, being in shape/looking good, justify the means, physical > hell. Or to apply it to a more military context, all officers need to > understand that the decisions they make are based on the ends justifying the > means. The officer might need to sacrifice a man or two to save the whole > platoon. If they do not do it then they are deficient commanders. Or, in > Buffy's context, it is ok to sacrifice Andrew, a potential, Spike, Wood, > Giles, Herself, or even <gasp> Dawn, if it means saving the world. Ten > lives are worth more than one, trillions are definately worth more than a > few... > That's not what the phrase 'The ends justify the means' mean. In fact, the phrase is usually used in reverse, as in 'The ends don't justify the means'. It doesn't have anything to do with giving up something to gain something else, you don't 'justify' that at all. That's just a trade off. To 'justify' something, you have to give a reason for it, you have to explain why you did it and why it was okay to do. Saying 'The ends justify the means' means you're allowing any methods as long as the desired end was reached.

2003-03-27 15:08:34-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:56:10 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:46:02 -0500, EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote: > >>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:25:20 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) >>wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:11:05 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" >>><Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>>>> >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >>>>> >>>>> No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >>>>> and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >>>>> doing so will save countless others? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>How will killing Spike save anyone? >>> >>>That is not the issue. The issue is whether it is okay to seek >>>vengeance as long as it can tie into a more important goal. >>>Wood was wrong in this case, primarily because he was letting >>>the First Evil put thoughts into his head. But vengeance can >>>be justified, if the act of vengeance really does serve a higher >>>cause. >> >>I didn't get the impression the First put any thoughts in Wood's head. The >>First merely showed Wood who it was who killed his mother. > >That was the thought that the First put in Wood's head. But you were talking about vengence. Wood already had that in his head and had apparently spent a long time trying to find the person to take it out on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-27 15:08:34-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:56:10 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote: >On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:46:02 -0500, EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote: > >>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:25:20 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) >>wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:11:05 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" >>><Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>>>> >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >>>>> >>>>> No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >>>>> and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >>>>> doing so will save countless others? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>How will killing Spike save anyone? >>> >>>That is not the issue. The issue is whether it is okay to seek >>>vengeance as long as it can tie into a more important goal. >>>Wood was wrong in this case, primarily because he was letting >>>the First Evil put thoughts into his head. But vengeance can >>>be justified, if the act of vengeance really does serve a higher >>>cause. >> >>I didn't get the impression the First put any thoughts in Wood's head. The >>First merely showed Wood who it was who killed his mother. > >That was the thought that the First put in Wood's head. But you were talking about vengence. Wood already had that in his head and had apparently spent a long time trying to find the person to take it out on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-03-27 15:25:08-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com>)


In article <3e835619.157614093@news.telusplanet.net>, rgorman@telusplanet.net says... > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:55:34 -0500, David Cheatham > <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > > >In article <b5ui4s$6il$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com says... > >> > The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk > >> > doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends > >> > justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a > >> > puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to > >> > say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or > >> > 'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes > >> > into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety > >> > of your family or tribe, that it is okay to rape and murder the enemy > >> > women in Kosovo, if the end is to establish a safe homeland for your > >> > people, and, well, that's where 'the ends justify the means' leads. > >> > >> > >> > >> You are using the evil/negative connotation of the phrase 'the ends justify > >> the means'. The phrase applies to busting your ass in the gym to get in > >> shape. The ends, being in shape/looking good, justify the means, physical > >> hell. Or to apply it to a more military context, all officers need to > >> understand that the decisions they make are based on the ends justifying the > >> means. The officer might need to sacrifice a man or two to save the whole > >> platoon. If they do not do it then they are deficient commanders. Or, in > >> Buffy's context, it is ok to sacrifice Andrew, a potential, Spike, Wood, > >> Giles, Herself, or even <gasp> Dawn, if it means saving the world. Ten > >> lives are worth more than one, trillions are definately worth more than a > >> few... > >> > > > >That's not what the phrase 'The ends justify the means' mean. In fact, the phrase is usually > >used in reverse, as in 'The ends don't justify the means'. > > > >It doesn't have anything to do with giving up something to gain something else, you don't > >'justify' that at all. That's just a trade off. > > That is what justification is. A trade off is not justification. A hypothetical: I have 20 dollars to spend, and I'm planning on having a frozen pizza for supper and seeing a movie later today. As a tradeoff, I can purchase a pizza from Papa John's, and not see a movie. Alternately, I can purchase a book instead of a movie ticket. Or I can eat at Taco Bell and get a book and see a movie. None of those need 'justification', even to myself. They are just trade offs. Justification is when you have to explain your actions, either to yourself or other, and, yes, it can involve a trade off, although it doesn't have to. Note I didn't say you have to provide a *good* or reasonable explanation, just an explanation. (And although telling people you killed a guy because 'I didn't like his shirt' might *technically* be a justification of killing him, it's not going to go over too well with other people.) A justification is not an action, it's a moral or legal explanation of an action, either to yourself or others. > >To 'justify' something, you have to give a reason for it, you have to explain why you did it > >and why it was okay to do. Saying 'The ends justify the means' means you're allowing any > >methods as long as the desired end was reached. > > No it doesn't. The ends must not be merely desired, they must be of > such a nature as to provide justification, and the harm of the means > must not outweight the ends desired, and must be relevant to the ends > desired. Anyone who engages in warfare _must_ accept that ends > justify means. It's the only way they can fight at all. Nothing 'provides justification' for anything, it's just a claim that is made. Justification is just a fancy way to say 'the reason that something you did, or will do, was the correct thing to do'. It's purely a moral argument, it's not even as objective as the *reason* you did something, which is itself fairly vague. It's arguing why an action is 'allowable'. And '...the harm of the means must not outweigh the ends desired...', is explicitly *not* included in the concept of the ends justifying the means. Saying 'The ends justify the means' means *exactly* what it sounds like, that whatever means you used to reach the ends are justified as long as you're trying to reach the end. And people engaged in warfare normally don't, in fact, agree with that. For example, torture isn't used, attacking under a flag of truce isn't used, collecting civilians to use as hostages isn't used, certain classes of weapons aren't used, terrorizing civilians isn't used...

2003-03-27 15:25:08-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com>)


In article <3e835619.157614093@news.telusplanet.net>, rgorman@telusplanet.net says... > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:55:34 -0500, David Cheatham > <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > > >In article <b5ui4s$6il$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com says... > >> > The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk > >> > doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends > >> > justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a > >> > puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to > >> > say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or > >> > 'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes > >> > into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety > >> > of your family or tribe, that it is okay to rape and murder the enemy > >> > women in Kosovo, if the end is to establish a safe homeland for your > >> > people, and, well, that's where 'the ends justify the means' leads. > >> > >> > >> > >> You are using the evil/negative connotation of the phrase 'the ends justify > >> the means'. The phrase applies to busting your ass in the gym to get in > >> shape. The ends, being in shape/looking good, justify the means, physical > >> hell. Or to apply it to a more military context, all officers need to > >> understand that the decisions they make are based on the ends justifying the > >> means. The officer might need to sacrifice a man or two to save the whole > >> platoon. If they do not do it then they are deficient commanders. Or, in > >> Buffy's context, it is ok to sacrifice Andrew, a potential, Spike, Wood, > >> Giles, Herself, or even <gasp> Dawn, if it means saving the world. Ten > >> lives are worth more than one, trillions are definately worth more than a > >> few... > >> > > > >That's not what the phrase 'The ends justify the means' mean. In fact, the phrase is usually > >used in reverse, as in 'The ends don't justify the means'. > > > >It doesn't have anything to do with giving up something to gain something else, you don't > >'justify' that at all. That's just a trade off. > > That is what justification is. A trade off is not justification. A hypothetical: I have 20 dollars to spend, and I'm planning on having a frozen pizza for supper and seeing a movie later today. As a tradeoff, I can purchase a pizza from Papa John's, and not see a movie. Alternately, I can purchase a book instead of a movie ticket. Or I can eat at Taco Bell and get a book and see a movie. None of those need 'justification', even to myself. They are just trade offs. Justification is when you have to explain your actions, either to yourself or other, and, yes, it can involve a trade off, although it doesn't have to. Note I didn't say you have to provide a *good* or reasonable explanation, just an explanation. (And although telling people you killed a guy because 'I didn't like his shirt' might *technically* be a justification of killing him, it's not going to go over too well with other people.) A justification is not an action, it's a moral or legal explanation of an action, either to yourself or others. > >To 'justify' something, you have to give a reason for it, you have to explain why you did it > >and why it was okay to do. Saying 'The ends justify the means' means you're allowing any > >methods as long as the desired end was reached. > > No it doesn't. The ends must not be merely desired, they must be of > such a nature as to provide justification, and the harm of the means > must not outweight the ends desired, and must be relevant to the ends > desired. Anyone who engages in warfare _must_ accept that ends > justify means. It's the only way they can fight at all. Nothing 'provides justification' for anything, it's just a claim that is made. Justification is just a fancy way to say 'the reason that something you did, or will do, was the correct thing to do'. It's purely a moral argument, it's not even as objective as the *reason* you did something, which is itself fairly vague. It's arguing why an action is 'allowable'. And '...the harm of the means must not outweigh the ends desired...', is explicitly *not* included in the concept of the ends justifying the means. Saying 'The ends justify the means' means *exactly* what it sounds like, that whatever means you used to reach the ends are justified as long as you're trying to reach the end. And people engaged in warfare normally don't, in fact, agree with that. For example, torture isn't used, attacking under a flag of truce isn't used, collecting civilians to use as hostages isn't used, certain classes of weapons aren't used, terrorizing civilians isn't used...

2003-03-27 16:39:00-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com>)


In article <3e836a40.162774284@news.telusplanet.net>, rgorman@telusplanet.net says... > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:25:08 -0500, David Cheatham > <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > > > > > > >And '...the harm of the means must not outweigh the ends desired...', is explicitly *not* > >included in the concept of the ends justifying the means. > > Who says? Definitely not the Jesuits who coined the expression. As > far they were concerned, the "ends justifying the means" was a > doctrine explaining that if, for example, you are a priest going > around to provide religious services to secret catholics in a > protestant country, lying about your religion is acceptable, even > though lying is not in general a good thing to do. > > Without know what the means or the ends involved are, how can you say > whether the ends justify the means? I didn't say the ends didn't justify the means, or vice versa, I said that was what the expression means. It doesn't have anything in there about a moral judgement, and nothing about the harm outweighing the good. When you said 'the ends justify the means' about your actions, you're saying 'The means I am, right now, considering using or am using, are justified by the end result'. This is obviously much too general to say it's correct or incorrect. *However*, the expression is generally used when you're out of *other* reasons to justify something, when you use a lot of force or use unethical behavior and feel the need to justify it. In other words, it's generally used when others *would* consider the harm you're doing outweighing the good you're doing, and you're trying to justify the harm with the good. Which is how the common claim 'The ends do not justify the means' arose.

2003-03-27 16:39:00-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com>)


In article <3e836a40.162774284@news.telusplanet.net>, rgorman@telusplanet.net says... > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:25:08 -0500, David Cheatham > <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > > > > > > >And '...the harm of the means must not outweigh the ends desired...', is explicitly *not* > >included in the concept of the ends justifying the means. > > Who says? Definitely not the Jesuits who coined the expression. As > far they were concerned, the "ends justifying the means" was a > doctrine explaining that if, for example, you are a priest going > around to provide religious services to secret catholics in a > protestant country, lying about your religion is acceptable, even > though lying is not in general a good thing to do. > > Without know what the means or the ends involved are, how can you say > whether the ends justify the means? I didn't say the ends didn't justify the means, or vice versa, I said that was what the expression means. It doesn't have anything in there about a moral judgement, and nothing about the harm outweighing the good. When you said 'the ends justify the means' about your actions, you're saying 'The means I am, right now, considering using or am using, are justified by the end result'. This is obviously much too general to say it's correct or incorrect. *However*, the expression is generally used when you're out of *other* reasons to justify something, when you use a lot of force or use unethical behavior and feel the need to justify it. In other words, it's generally used when others *would* consider the harm you're doing outweighing the good you're doing, and you're trying to justify the harm with the good. Which is how the common claim 'The ends do not justify the means' arose.

2003-03-27 17:25:20+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:11:05 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: >> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >> >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >> >> No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >> and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >> doing so will save countless others? > > > >How will killing Spike save anyone? That is not the issue. The issue is whether it is okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a more important goal. Wood was wrong in this case, primarily because he was letting the First Evil put thoughts into his head. But vengeance can be justified, if the act of vengeance really does serve a higher cause.

2003-03-27 17:25:20+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:11:05 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: >> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >> >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >> >> No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >> and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >> doing so will save countless others? > > > >How will killing Spike save anyone? That is not the issue. The issue is whether it is okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a more important goal. Wood was wrong in this case, primarily because he was letting the First Evil put thoughts into his head. But vengeance can be justified, if the act of vengeance really does serve a higher cause.

2003-03-27 18:11:12-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> But Wood and Giles didn't know that, which is the whole point. Wood does [or at least should] because he saw spike play the song and not change...

2003-03-27 18:11:12-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com>)


> But Wood and Giles didn't know that, which is the whole point. Wood does [or at least should] because he saw spike play the song and not change...

2003-03-27 19:05:39+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers >From: "Lord Phoenix" Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com >Date: 3/27/2003 1:49 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <b5uhpl$6hb$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu> > >> >...just tore my heart out of my chest and now that this silly ep has >aired, my heart is back in my chest... > > >Why? > Because after viewing the ep I felt less sorry for Spike. > >>> Not caring so much about Spike is better for the psyche... > > >How so, not caring for Spike? > Nope, sorry, not going there again. Posted about 70 times on this topic yesterday. Do a google. :) Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-27 19:05:39+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers >From: "Lord Phoenix" Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com >Date: 3/27/2003 1:49 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <b5uhpl$6hb$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu> > >> >...just tore my heart out of my chest and now that this silly ep has >aired, my heart is back in my chest... > > >Why? > Because after viewing the ep I felt less sorry for Spike. > >>> Not caring so much about Spike is better for the psyche... > > >How so, not caring for Spike? > Nope, sorry, not going there again. Posted about 70 times on this topic yesterday. Do a google. :) Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-03-27 19:54:54+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:55:34 -0500, David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com> wrote: >In article <b5ui4s$6il$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com says... >> > The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk >> > doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends >> > justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a >> > puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to >> > say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or >> > 'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes >> > into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety >> > of your family or tribe, that it is okay to rape and murder the enemy >> > women in Kosovo, if the end is to establish a safe homeland for your >> > people, and, well, that's where 'the ends justify the means' leads. >> >> >> >> You are using the evil/negative connotation of the phrase 'the ends justify >> the means'. The phrase applies to busting your ass in the gym to get in >> shape. The ends, being in shape/looking good, justify the means, physical >> hell. Or to apply it to a more military context, all officers need to >> understand that the decisions they make are based on the ends justifying the >> means. The officer might need to sacrifice a man or two to save the whole >> platoon. If they do not do it then they are deficient commanders. Or, in >> Buffy's context, it is ok to sacrifice Andrew, a potential, Spike, Wood, >> Giles, Herself, or even <gasp> Dawn, if it means saving the world. Ten >> lives are worth more than one, trillions are definately worth more than a >> few... >> > >That's not what the phrase 'The ends justify the means' mean. In fact, the phrase is usually >used in reverse, as in 'The ends don't justify the means'. > >It doesn't have anything to do with giving up something to gain something else, you don't >'justify' that at all. That's just a trade off. That is what justification is. > >To 'justify' something, you have to give a reason for it, you have to explain why you did it >and why it was okay to do. Saying 'The ends justify the means' means you're allowing any >methods as long as the desired end was reached. No it doesn't. The ends must not be merely desired, they must be of such a nature as to provide justification, and the harm of the means must not outweight the ends desired, and must be relevant to the ends desired. Anyone who engages in warfare _must_ accept that ends justify means. It's the only way they can fight at all.

2003-03-27 19:54:54+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:55:34 -0500, David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com> wrote: >In article <b5ui4s$6il$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com says... >> > The fact that 'evil' uses feet to walk and Buffy uses feet to walk >> > doesn't mean 'Buffy uses Evil's methods'. The phrase 'the ends >> > justify the means' isn't generally used to say that it's okay to pet a >> > puppy dog if your end is to make people happy. It's generally used to >> > say that it's okay to do something that is considered 'wrong' or >> > 'evil' if your goal is 'good'. For example, it's okay to crash planes >> > into skyscrapers if the end you are seeking is the freedom and safety >> > of your family or tribe, that it is okay to rape and murder the enemy >> > women in Kosovo, if the end is to establish a safe homeland for your >> > people, and, well, that's where 'the ends justify the means' leads. >> >> >> >> You are using the evil/negative connotation of the phrase 'the ends justify >> the means'. The phrase applies to busting your ass in the gym to get in >> shape. The ends, being in shape/looking good, justify the means, physical >> hell. Or to apply it to a more military context, all officers need to >> understand that the decisions they make are based on the ends justifying the >> means. The officer might need to sacrifice a man or two to save the whole >> platoon. If they do not do it then they are deficient commanders. Or, in >> Buffy's context, it is ok to sacrifice Andrew, a potential, Spike, Wood, >> Giles, Herself, or even <gasp> Dawn, if it means saving the world. Ten >> lives are worth more than one, trillions are definately worth more than a >> few... >> > >That's not what the phrase 'The ends justify the means' mean. In fact, the phrase is usually >used in reverse, as in 'The ends don't justify the means'. > >It doesn't have anything to do with giving up something to gain something else, you don't >'justify' that at all. That's just a trade off. That is what justification is. > >To 'justify' something, you have to give a reason for it, you have to explain why you did it >and why it was okay to do. Saying 'The ends justify the means' means you're allowing any >methods as long as the desired end was reached. No it doesn't. The ends must not be merely desired, they must be of such a nature as to provide justification, and the harm of the means must not outweight the ends desired, and must be relevant to the ends desired. Anyone who engages in warfare _must_ accept that ends justify means. It's the only way they can fight at all.

2003-03-27 19:56:10+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:46:02 -0500, EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote: >On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:25:20 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) >wrote: > >>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:11:05 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" >><Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>>> >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >>>> >>>> No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >>>> and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >>>> doing so will save countless others? >>> >>> >>> >>>How will killing Spike save anyone? >> >>That is not the issue. The issue is whether it is okay to seek >>vengeance as long as it can tie into a more important goal. >>Wood was wrong in this case, primarily because he was letting >>the First Evil put thoughts into his head. But vengeance can >>be justified, if the act of vengeance really does serve a higher >>cause. > >I didn't get the impression the First put any thoughts in Wood's head. The >First merely showed Wood who it was who killed his mother. That was the thought that the First put in Wood's head.

2003-03-27 19:56:10+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:46:02 -0500, EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote: >On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:25:20 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) >wrote: > >>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:11:05 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" >><Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>>> >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >>>> >>>> No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >>>> and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >>>> doing so will save countless others? >>> >>> >>> >>>How will killing Spike save anyone? >> >>That is not the issue. The issue is whether it is okay to seek >>vengeance as long as it can tie into a more important goal. >>Wood was wrong in this case, primarily because he was letting >>the First Evil put thoughts into his head. But vengeance can >>be justified, if the act of vengeance really does serve a higher >>cause. > >I didn't get the impression the First put any thoughts in Wood's head. The >First merely showed Wood who it was who killed his mother. That was the thought that the First put in Wood's head.

2003-03-27 21:14:07+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:25:08 -0500, David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > > >And '...the harm of the means must not outweigh the ends desired...', is explicitly *not* >included in the concept of the ends justifying the means. Who says? Definitely not the Jesuits who coined the expression. As far they were concerned, the "ends justifying the means" was a doctrine explaining that if, for example, you are a priest going around to provide religious services to secret catholics in a protestant country, lying about your religion is acceptable, even though lying is not in general a good thing to do. Without know what the means or the ends involved are, how can you say whether the ends justify the means?

2003-03-27 21:14:07+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:25:08 -0500, David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > > >And '...the harm of the means must not outweigh the ends desired...', is explicitly *not* >included in the concept of the ends justifying the means. Who says? Definitely not the Jesuits who coined the expression. As far they were concerned, the "ends justifying the means" was a doctrine explaining that if, for example, you are a priest going around to provide religious services to secret catholics in a protestant country, lying about your religion is acceptable, even though lying is not in general a good thing to do. Without know what the means or the ends involved are, how can you say whether the ends justify the means?

2003-03-27 23:47:41+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:39:00 -0500, David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com> wrote: >In article <3e836a40.162774284@news.telusplanet.net>, rgorman@telusplanet.net says... >> On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:25:08 -0500, David Cheatham >> <david@creeknet.com> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >And '...the harm of the means must not outweigh the ends desired...', is explicitly *not* >> >included in the concept of the ends justifying the means. >> >> Who says? Definitely not the Jesuits who coined the expression. As >> far they were concerned, the "ends justifying the means" was a >> doctrine explaining that if, for example, you are a priest going >> around to provide religious services to secret catholics in a >> protestant country, lying about your religion is acceptable, even >> though lying is not in general a good thing to do. >> >> Without know what the means or the ends involved are, how can you say >> whether the ends justify the means? > >I didn't say the ends didn't justify the means, or vice versa, I said that was what the >expression means. It doesn't have anything in there about a moral judgement, and nothing about >the harm outweighing the good. > > >When you said 'the ends justify the means' about your actions, you're saying 'The means I am, >right now, considering using or am using, are justified by the end result'. This is obviously >much too general to say it's correct or incorrect. But therefore it is possible to say that the statement "The ends do not justify the means" is false. Sometimes they do.

2003-03-27 23:47:41+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:39:00 -0500, David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com> wrote: >In article <3e836a40.162774284@news.telusplanet.net>, rgorman@telusplanet.net says... >> On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:25:08 -0500, David Cheatham >> <david@creeknet.com> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >And '...the harm of the means must not outweigh the ends desired...', is explicitly *not* >> >included in the concept of the ends justifying the means. >> >> Who says? Definitely not the Jesuits who coined the expression. As >> far they were concerned, the "ends justifying the means" was a >> doctrine explaining that if, for example, you are a priest going >> around to provide religious services to secret catholics in a >> protestant country, lying about your religion is acceptable, even >> though lying is not in general a good thing to do. >> >> Without know what the means or the ends involved are, how can you say >> whether the ends justify the means? > >I didn't say the ends didn't justify the means, or vice versa, I said that was what the >expression means. It doesn't have anything in there about a moral judgement, and nothing about >the harm outweighing the good. > > >When you said 'the ends justify the means' about your actions, you're saying 'The means I am, >right now, considering using or am using, are justified by the end result'. This is obviously >much too general to say it's correct or incorrect. But therefore it is possible to say that the statement "The ends do not justify the means" is false. Sometimes they do.

2003-03-27 23:48:45+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 18:11:12 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: >> But Wood and Giles didn't know that, which is the whole point. > > > >Wood does [or at least should] because he saw spike play the song and not >change... So what? Wood's attempt to kill Spike was already over. And Wood did confirm that Spike could still be triggered before trying to kill him.

2003-03-27 23:48:45+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 18:11:12 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: >> But Wood and Giles didn't know that, which is the whole point. > > > >Wood does [or at least should] because he saw spike play the song and not >change... So what? Wood's attempt to kill Spike was already over. And Wood did confirm that Spike could still be triggered before trying to kill him.

2003-03-28 01:29:34+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:08:34 -0500, EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote: >On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:56:10 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) >wrote: > >>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:46:02 -0500, EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:25:20 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:11:05 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" >>>><Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>>>>> >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >>>>>> >>>>>> No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >>>>>> and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >>>>>> doing so will save countless others? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>How will killing Spike save anyone? >>>> >>>>That is not the issue. The issue is whether it is okay to seek >>>>vengeance as long as it can tie into a more important goal. >>>>Wood was wrong in this case, primarily because he was letting >>>>the First Evil put thoughts into his head. But vengeance can >>>>be justified, if the act of vengeance really does serve a higher >>>>cause. >>> >>>I didn't get the impression the First put any thoughts in Wood's head. The >>>First merely showed Wood who it was who killed his mother. >> >>That was the thought that the First put in Wood's head. > >But you were talking about vengence. Wood already had that in his head and >had apparently spent a long time trying to find the person to take it out >on. > Yup. But when the First Evil points out the target of your vengeance, it's time to reconsider your course of action.

2003-03-28 01:29:34+00:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (rgorman@telusplanet.net)


On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:08:34 -0500, EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote: >On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:56:10 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) >wrote: > >>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:46:02 -0500, EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:25:20 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:11:05 -0500, "Lord Phoenix" >>>><Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >Wood thinks it's okay to seek vengeance as long as it can tie into a >>>>>> >'lofty' goal (he's wrong) >>>>>> >>>>>> No, he isn't. Can you seriously argue that it is wrong to hunt down >>>>>> and destroy the vampire who killed the person you love, even when >>>>>> doing so will save countless others? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>How will killing Spike save anyone? >>>> >>>>That is not the issue. The issue is whether it is okay to seek >>>>vengeance as long as it can tie into a more important goal. >>>>Wood was wrong in this case, primarily because he was letting >>>>the First Evil put thoughts into his head. But vengeance can >>>>be justified, if the act of vengeance really does serve a higher >>>>cause. >>> >>>I didn't get the impression the First put any thoughts in Wood's head. The >>>First merely showed Wood who it was who killed his mother. >> >>That was the thought that the First put in Wood's head. > >But you were talking about vengence. Wood already had that in his head and >had apparently spent a long time trying to find the person to take it out >on. > Yup. But when the First Evil points out the target of your vengeance, it's time to reconsider your course of action.

2003-03-29 16:08:39-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com>)


In article <3e838f62.172281701@news.telusplanet.net>, rgorman@telusplanet.net says... > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:39:00 -0500, David Cheatham > <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > > >In article <3e836a40.162774284@news.telusplanet.net>, rgorman@telusplanet.net says... > >> On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:25:08 -0500, David Cheatham > >> <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> >And '...the harm of the means must not outweigh the ends desired...', is explicitly *not* > >> >included in the concept of the ends justifying the means. > >> > >> Who says? Definitely not the Jesuits who coined the expression. As > >> far they were concerned, the "ends justifying the means" was a > >> doctrine explaining that if, for example, you are a priest going > >> around to provide religious services to secret catholics in a > >> protestant country, lying about your religion is acceptable, even > >> though lying is not in general a good thing to do. > >> > >> Without know what the means or the ends involved are, how can you say > >> whether the ends justify the means? > > > >I didn't say the ends didn't justify the means, or vice versa, I said that was what the > >expression means. It doesn't have anything in there about a moral judgement, and nothing about > >the harm outweighing the good. > > > > > >When you said 'the ends justify the means' about your actions, you're saying 'The means I am, > >right now, considering using or am using, are justified by the end result'. This is obviously > >much too general to say it's correct or incorrect. > > But therefore it is possible to say that the statement "The ends do > not justify the means" is false. Sometimes they do. Yeah, and? I've never claimed the ends can't justify the means. I just said that the expression is usually used as a last resort to justify something. And, in fact, the reason you talk about 'the mean' is usually because you don't want to *say* what you're doing. You don't want to say 'Finding out if Angelus was here justifies torturing a completely innocent and rather pathetic drug addict.' (Wait, wrong newsgroup.), so you say 'The ends justify the means.'

2003-03-29 16:08:39-05:00 - Re: Lies My Mother Told Me - Random Comments - spoilers - (David Cheatham <david@creeknet.com>)


In article <3e838f62.172281701@news.telusplanet.net>, rgorman@telusplanet.net says... > On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:39:00 -0500, David Cheatham > <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > > >In article <3e836a40.162774284@news.telusplanet.net>, rgorman@telusplanet.net says... > >> On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:25:08 -0500, David Cheatham > >> <david@creeknet.com> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> >And '...the harm of the means must not outweigh the ends desired...', is explicitly *not* > >> >included in the concept of the ends justifying the means. > >> > >> Who says? Definitely not the Jesuits who coined the expression. As > >> far they were concerned, the "ends justifying the means" was a > >> doctrine explaining that if, for example, you are a priest going > >> around to provide religious services to secret catholics in a > >> protestant country, lying about your religion is acceptable, even > >> though lying is not in general a good thing to do. > >> > >> Without know what the means or the ends involved are, how can you say > >> whether the ends justify the means? > > > >I didn't say the ends didn't justify the means, or vice versa, I said that was what the > >expression means. It doesn't have anything in there about a moral judgement, and nothing about > >the harm outweighing the good. > > > > > >When you said 'the ends justify the means' about your actions, you're saying 'The means I am, > >right now, considering using or am using, are justified by the end result'. This is obviously > >much too general to say it's correct or incorrect. > > But therefore it is possible to say that the statement "The ends do > not justify the means" is false. Sometimes they do. Yeah, and? I've never claimed the ends can't justify the means. I just said that the expression is usually used as a last resort to justify something. And, in fact, the reason you talk about 'the mean' is usually because you don't want to *say* what you're doing. You don't want to say 'Finding out if Angelus was here justifies torturing a completely innocent and rather pathetic drug addict.' (Wait, wrong newsgroup.), so you say 'The ends justify the means.'