FLM films - My Webpage

2003-02-19 01:30:47-05:00 - Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com>)


SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than she usually believes in anything. -- -Michelle Levin (Luna) http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna In the beginning, there was nothing. Then it exploded.

2003-02-19 01:30:47-05:00 - Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com>)


SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than she usually believes in anything. -- -Michelle Levin (Luna) http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna In the beginning, there was nothing. Then it exploded.

2003-02-19 06:00:54-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (barnett@shentel.net)


Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message news:<lunachick-EC96F6.01304219022003@news.mindspring.com>... > SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this > episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads > that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as > her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by > some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that > someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that > belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than > she usually believes in anything. Buffy does two things when tradegy strikes her. She becomes a bitch or she shuts herself off. It's jsut the way her personality is and we've been shown the bitch potentional since "When She Was Bad." She spent most of last season shut off, the bitch only showing up occasionally, and it didn't work. So she's trying the other way right now. Frankly there's only so many ways she can treat these girls and she's tried protecting them while showing them what they could be capable of in the second battle against the Ubervamp and that didn't work. JLB

2003-02-19 06:00:54-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (barnett@shentel.net)


Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message news:<lunachick-EC96F6.01304219022003@news.mindspring.com>... > SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this > episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads > that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as > her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by > some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that > someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that > belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than > she usually believes in anything. Buffy does two things when tradegy strikes her. She becomes a bitch or she shuts herself off. It's jsut the way her personality is and we've been shown the bitch potentional since "When She Was Bad." She spent most of last season shut off, the bitch only showing up occasionally, and it didn't work. So she's trying the other way right now. Frankly there's only so many ways she can treat these girls and she's tried protecting them while showing them what they could be capable of in the second battle against the Ubervamp and that didn't work. JLB

2003-02-19 09:11:26-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (solarchic8@yahoo.com)


I think Buffy has it in her head that she's like the all powerful ruler of who deserves to die and who deserves to live. I would really like to see everyone just leave her and let her fight the first on her own. Maybe then she would have to do her OWN research and find out information for herself and learn how to read ancient texts. Sure, Buffy can fight, but shes not so book smart. She shows no interest for anyone but herself. She doesn't even know the SIT's names yet...how much time has she been spending with them? "It is Chloe, right?" Pfft. And another thing-First she wants Spike as some puppy dog-non fighty-soul boy and now she wants him to get in touch with his inner demon? What's that all about?! She needs to realize that she isn't some god who can make people jump whenever she wants them to. A little too Glory-like if you ask me. Thats just my opinion.

2003-02-19 09:11:26-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (solarchic8@yahoo.com)


I think Buffy has it in her head that she's like the all powerful ruler of who deserves to die and who deserves to live. I would really like to see everyone just leave her and let her fight the first on her own. Maybe then she would have to do her OWN research and find out information for herself and learn how to read ancient texts. Sure, Buffy can fight, but shes not so book smart. She shows no interest for anyone but herself. She doesn't even know the SIT's names yet...how much time has she been spending with them? "It is Chloe, right?" Pfft. And another thing-First she wants Spike as some puppy dog-non fighty-soul boy and now she wants him to get in touch with his inner demon? What's that all about?! She needs to realize that she isn't some god who can make people jump whenever she wants them to. A little too Glory-like if you ask me. Thats just my opinion.

2003-02-19 09:40:47+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (tvfan87656@aol.comnospam)


>Luna lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com wrote: >SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. > >I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this >episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads >that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as >her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by >some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that >someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that >belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than >she usually believes in anything. Or they wanted to show that Buffy is a self-righteous control freak who, as always, has to lash out at other people because she hates herself so much. The writing for so many of the characters this week was godawful.

2003-02-19 09:40:47+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (tvfan87656@aol.comnospam)


>Luna lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com wrote: >SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. > >I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this >episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads >that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as >her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by >some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that >someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that >belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than >she usually believes in anything. Or they wanted to show that Buffy is a self-righteous control freak who, as always, has to lash out at other people because she hates herself so much. The writing for so many of the characters this week was godawful.

2003-02-19 11:38:46+01:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Peter Mogensen <apm-at-mutex-dot-dk@nospam.not>)


Luna wrote: > SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this > episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads > that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as > her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by > some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. Maybe... and maybe Buffy have actually figured that out for her self now... by rejecting the extra power and seeing the armies of evil. Peter

2003-02-19 11:38:46+01:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Peter Mogensen <apm-at-mutex-dot-dk@nospam.not>)


Luna wrote: > SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this > episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads > that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as > her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by > some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. Maybe... and maybe Buffy have actually figured that out for her self now... by rejecting the extra power and seeing the armies of evil. Peter

2003-02-19 11:49:10-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<%fM4a.9681$_c6.998111@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > I'm not too sure what to make of the "Big Bitch" speech(as a play on "Big > Bad"). For most of the show's history it's been written for the audience to > identify with Buffy herself, but I'm pretty sure in that scene that the > audience is supposed to identify with the rest of the gang and not with > Buffy. I really hope the writers provide some explanation for this change > in character at some point. Not necessarily. I imagine a lot of people have felt like others are relying on them to much at times. And that seemed to be Buffy's thing. JLB

2003-02-19 11:49:10-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<%fM4a.9681$_c6.998111@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > I'm not too sure what to make of the "Big Bitch" speech(as a play on "Big > Bad"). For most of the show's history it's been written for the audience to > identify with Buffy herself, but I'm pretty sure in that scene that the > audience is supposed to identify with the rest of the gang and not with > Buffy. I really hope the writers provide some explanation for this change > in character at some point. Not necessarily. I imagine a lot of people have felt like others are relying on them to much at times. And that seemed to be Buffy's thing. JLB

2003-02-19 12:53:55-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (rbmoney@library.syr.edu)


"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<%fM4a.9681$_c6.998111@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > I'm not too sure what to make of the "Big Bitch" speech(as a play on "Big > Bad"). For most of the show's history it's been written for the audience to > identify with Buffy herself, but I'm pretty sure in that scene that the > audience is supposed to identify with the rest of the gang and not with > Buffy. I really hope the writers provide some explanation for this change > in character at some point. Er ... They did. She had just buried someone she had been trying to protect. She was upset and feeling hopeless. I'm a bit surprised so few people see that she was reacting to an emotionally wrenching event, especially when the writers clearly set it up to show her as relaxed and amiable with Wood, Spike, Willow, the SITs and even with Andrew. What was neat about that speech -- even in its awkwardness -- was that she wasn't entirely wrong about Willow and Spike, though her harshness to the SITs and Anya was questionable. I'm not sure I'd call it a Patton-Motivational-Speech 101, but its wrongness was off-set a bit by her dead-on accuracy in stating what she needed -- a witch with her power under control and an ally with power who loves to fight. Randy M.

2003-02-19 12:53:55-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (rbmoney@library.syr.edu)


"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<%fM4a.9681$_c6.998111@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > I'm not too sure what to make of the "Big Bitch" speech(as a play on "Big > Bad"). For most of the show's history it's been written for the audience to > identify with Buffy herself, but I'm pretty sure in that scene that the > audience is supposed to identify with the rest of the gang and not with > Buffy. I really hope the writers provide some explanation for this change > in character at some point. Er ... They did. She had just buried someone she had been trying to protect. She was upset and feeling hopeless. I'm a bit surprised so few people see that she was reacting to an emotionally wrenching event, especially when the writers clearly set it up to show her as relaxed and amiable with Wood, Spike, Willow, the SITs and even with Andrew. What was neat about that speech -- even in its awkwardness -- was that she wasn't entirely wrong about Willow and Spike, though her harshness to the SITs and Anya was questionable. I'm not sure I'd call it a Patton-Motivational-Speech 101, but its wrongness was off-set a bit by her dead-on accuracy in stating what she needed -- a witch with her power under control and an ally with power who loves to fight. Randy M.

2003-02-19 13:27:28-06:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Estron <estron@tfs.net>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Luna wrote: > I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this > episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads > that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as > her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by > some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that > someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that > belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than > she usually believes in anything. It's been part of this show's stock in trade since the beginning to say one thing and then have the characters do the opposite. "Well, I'm sure Buffy's having the time of her life," followed by a hard cut to Buffy fighting for that life against five or so vampires. So, yeah. It's becoming obvious that power alone won't get it done, that "it's not enough," so something else (probably that no one saw coming) will be the determining factor. Like the re-cursing of Angelus, or the magical combination spell, or the revelation that Dawn's and Buffy's blood is the same, or the infusion of good magick into Dark Willow. -- All opinions expressed above are only that. Pax vobiscum. estron@tfs.net Kansas City, Missouri

2003-02-19 13:27:28-06:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Estron <estron@tfs.net>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Luna wrote: > I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this > episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads > that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as > her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by > some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that > someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that > belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than > she usually believes in anything. It's been part of this show's stock in trade since the beginning to say one thing and then have the characters do the opposite. "Well, I'm sure Buffy's having the time of her life," followed by a hard cut to Buffy fighting for that life against five or so vampires. So, yeah. It's becoming obvious that power alone won't get it done, that "it's not enough," so something else (probably that no one saw coming) will be the determining factor. Like the re-cursing of Angelus, or the magical combination spell, or the revelation that Dawn's and Buffy's blood is the same, or the infusion of good magick into Dark Willow. -- All opinions expressed above are only that. Pax vobiscum. estron@tfs.net Kansas City, Missouri

2003-02-19 14:04:05-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <d108134b.0302190911.72525035@posting.google.com>, Dacie <solarchic8@yahoo.com> wrote: > She doesn't even know the SIT's names > yet...how much time has she been spending with them? "It is Chloe, > right?" Pfft. It was dark, and Chloe had her face down. IDing her just from the sound of her cry was doing pretty good. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-02-19 14:04:05-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <d108134b.0302190911.72525035@posting.google.com>, Dacie <solarchic8@yahoo.com> wrote: > She doesn't even know the SIT's names > yet...how much time has she been spending with them? "It is Chloe, > right?" Pfft. It was dark, and Chloe had her face down. IDing her just from the sound of her cry was doing pretty good. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-02-19 14:11:07+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


I'm not too sure what to make of the "Big Bitch" speech(as a play on "Big Bad"). For most of the show's history it's been written for the audience to identify with Buffy herself, but I'm pretty sure in that scene that the audience is supposed to identify with the rest of the gang and not with Buffy. I really hope the writers provide some explanation for this change in character at some point.

2003-02-19 14:11:07+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


I'm not too sure what to make of the "Big Bitch" speech(as a play on "Big Bad"). For most of the show's history it's been written for the audience to identify with Buffy herself, but I'm pretty sure in that scene that the audience is supposed to identify with the rest of the gang and not with Buffy. I really hope the writers provide some explanation for this change in character at some point.

2003-02-19 14:16:12-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (DigitalVinyl <reader@internet.com>)


Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote: >SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. > >I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this >episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads >that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as >her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by >some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that >someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that >belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than >she usually believes in anything. Makes sense that they have to justify the whole superiority complex idea. Although I'm getting bored with her speeches.

2003-02-19 14:16:12-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (DigitalVinyl <reader@internet.com>)


Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote: >SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. > >I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this >episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads >that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as >her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by >some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that >someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that >belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than >she usually believes in anything. Makes sense that they have to justify the whole superiority complex idea. Although I'm getting bored with her speeches.

2003-02-19 16:11:11-06:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Estron <estron@tfs.net>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, I opined: > : So, yeah. It's becoming obvious that power alone won't get it done, that > : "it's not enough," so something else (probably that no one saw coming) > : will be the determining factor. Like the re-cursing of Angelus, or the > : magical combination spell, or the revelation that Dawn's and Buffy's > : blood is the same, or the infusion of good magick into Dark Willow. Shawn Hill responded: > Exactly. Thank you. I like this Hill. He agrees with me. > Now, the questions will be: > 1) Will it be effective and mind-blowing? Will it tie in with basic > themes of the show (as this week's reveal of the Slayer having been > created in bondage does)? > 2) or cheesy and deus-ex-machina? > 3) And will the newsgroup be able to tell the difference? 4) Will the usual crowd start 18 unique threads, all with slightly differing subject-line variations on "The Finale Sucked!" How many of those threads will spell "Finale" incorrectly? How many will follow "Sucked" with more than ten exclamation points? -- All opinions expressed above are only that. Pax vobiscum. estron@tfs.net Kansas City, Missouri

2003-02-19 16:11:11-06:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Estron <estron@tfs.net>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, I opined: > : So, yeah. It's becoming obvious that power alone won't get it done, that > : "it's not enough," so something else (probably that no one saw coming) > : will be the determining factor. Like the re-cursing of Angelus, or the > : magical combination spell, or the revelation that Dawn's and Buffy's > : blood is the same, or the infusion of good magick into Dark Willow. Shawn Hill responded: > Exactly. Thank you. I like this Hill. He agrees with me. > Now, the questions will be: > 1) Will it be effective and mind-blowing? Will it tie in with basic > themes of the show (as this week's reveal of the Slayer having been > created in bondage does)? > 2) or cheesy and deus-ex-machina? > 3) And will the newsgroup be able to tell the difference? 4) Will the usual crowd start 18 unique threads, all with slightly differing subject-line variations on "The Finale Sucked!" How many of those threads will spell "Finale" incorrectly? How many will follow "Sucked" with more than ten exclamation points? -- All opinions expressed above are only that. Pax vobiscum. estron@tfs.net Kansas City, Missouri

2003-02-19 16:21:39-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"Dacie" <solarchic8@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:d108134b.0302190911.72525035@posting.google.com... > I think Buffy has it in her head that she's like the all powerful > ruler of who deserves to die and who deserves to live. I would really No, I think Buffy has it in her head that she's the leader and general. Which she really is. > like to see everyone just leave her and let her fight the first on her > own. Maybe then she would have to do her OWN research and find out > information for herself and learn how to read ancient texts. Sure, > Buffy can fight, but shes not so book smart. She shows no interest She's also a good battle strategist, not just a good brawler. > for anyone but herself. She doesn't even know the SIT's names > yet...how much time has she been spending with them? "It is Chloe, She knows their names. She just couldn't identify her at first. > right?" Pfft. And another thing-First she wants Spike as some puppy > dog-non fighty-soul boy and now she wants him to get in touch with his > inner demon? What's that all about?! She needs to realize that she What it's about is that she wanted a man who could stand up for himself and kick butt when needed. She never asked for "puppy dog-non fighty-soul boy", and even if she did, that's not what she needs right now. The stakes are higher than even a couple of months ago, and she needs Spike's killer instinct more than before. > isn't some god who can make people jump whenever she wants them to. A > little too Glory-like if you ask me. Thats just my opinion. Arnold Kim

2003-02-19 16:21:39-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"Dacie" <solarchic8@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:d108134b.0302190911.72525035@posting.google.com... > I think Buffy has it in her head that she's like the all powerful > ruler of who deserves to die and who deserves to live. I would really No, I think Buffy has it in her head that she's the leader and general. Which she really is. > like to see everyone just leave her and let her fight the first on her > own. Maybe then she would have to do her OWN research and find out > information for herself and learn how to read ancient texts. Sure, > Buffy can fight, but shes not so book smart. She shows no interest She's also a good battle strategist, not just a good brawler. > for anyone but herself. She doesn't even know the SIT's names > yet...how much time has she been spending with them? "It is Chloe, She knows their names. She just couldn't identify her at first. > right?" Pfft. And another thing-First she wants Spike as some puppy > dog-non fighty-soul boy and now she wants him to get in touch with his > inner demon? What's that all about?! She needs to realize that she What it's about is that she wanted a man who could stand up for himself and kick butt when needed. She never asked for "puppy dog-non fighty-soul boy", and even if she did, that's not what she needs right now. The stakes are higher than even a couple of months ago, and she needs Spike's killer instinct more than before. > isn't some god who can make people jump whenever she wants them to. A > little too Glory-like if you ask me. Thats just my opinion. Arnold Kim

2003-02-19 16:42:06-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"Luna" <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message news:lunachick-EC96F6.01304219022003@news.mindspring.com... > SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this > episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads > that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as > her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by > some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that > someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that > belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than > she usually believes in anything. Not necessarily, IMO. First of all, she was just as steadfast at not letting Dawn die two years ago, and that's just exactly what happened. But now that I think of it, what it might be related to is corruption of power, especially in light of the final shot of "Lessons". I think that, a major theme over the next several episodes will be about using it responsibly, since one of the themes so far this season is Willow harnessing her magic, and Spike's just gotten reacquainted with his killer instinct. It also makes sense since it seems that Faith is coming back for the finale, and her story arc was all about corruption of power. This doesn't necessarily mean a nonviolent ending, though it could be, since I find it challenging to see how violence can work against something that's intangible and really can't be killed. Or it could be just Buffy as hard-assed leader, as I originally thought. But I'll admit your interpretation is viable, though, again in light of the ending of "Lessons". I wouldn't be surprised if, in the end, Joss reveals that it _isn't_ all about power. Arnold Kim

2003-02-19 16:42:06-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"Luna" <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message news:lunachick-EC96F6.01304219022003@news.mindspring.com... > SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this > episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads > that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as > her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by > some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that > someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that > belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than > she usually believes in anything. Not necessarily, IMO. First of all, she was just as steadfast at not letting Dawn die two years ago, and that's just exactly what happened. But now that I think of it, what it might be related to is corruption of power, especially in light of the final shot of "Lessons". I think that, a major theme over the next several episodes will be about using it responsibly, since one of the themes so far this season is Willow harnessing her magic, and Spike's just gotten reacquainted with his killer instinct. It also makes sense since it seems that Faith is coming back for the finale, and her story arc was all about corruption of power. This doesn't necessarily mean a nonviolent ending, though it could be, since I find it challenging to see how violence can work against something that's intangible and really can't be killed. Or it could be just Buffy as hard-assed leader, as I originally thought. But I'll admit your interpretation is viable, though, again in light of the ending of "Lessons". I wouldn't be surprised if, in the end, Joss reveals that it _isn't_ all about power. Arnold Kim

2003-02-19 17:15:12-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (himiko@animail.net)


Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<b30nkr$neo$2@news.fas.harvard.edu>... > Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: > : SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > > > However, the message of the episode was from the First Slayer "It's not > enough." Buffy often gets all extreme when she's panicked and stressed > (The Gift, Weight of the World, OMWF, etc.). I think, even in the > episode, she began to realize that violence wasn't the way. > > I think the way to defeat the legion of Chaka Khans is going to be > something other than hand-to-hand combat. Something magickal, maybe. But > I also think Buffy is going to have a Zen/nonviolence moment of passive > resistance. She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to > go Ghandi on him. > > shawn I agree. I think the shamans and their resorting to evil to fight evil were the metaphoric version of what Buffy was doing with her training sessions (well, Kennedy was doing them, but under Buffy's aegis) and harshness. In the last moment, she understood it was wrong and repudiated that approach. She understood that violence is not enough; a little late, of course, for Spike (but I think he'll be happier with some of the violence back anyway) and Willow who may be experiencing the Olivia syndrome in her love life as a result of this. himiko

2003-02-19 17:15:12-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (himiko@animail.net)


Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<b30nkr$neo$2@news.fas.harvard.edu>... > Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: > : SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > : . > > > However, the message of the episode was from the First Slayer "It's not > enough." Buffy often gets all extreme when she's panicked and stressed > (The Gift, Weight of the World, OMWF, etc.). I think, even in the > episode, she began to realize that violence wasn't the way. > > I think the way to defeat the legion of Chaka Khans is going to be > something other than hand-to-hand combat. Something magickal, maybe. But > I also think Buffy is going to have a Zen/nonviolence moment of passive > resistance. She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to > go Ghandi on him. > > shawn I agree. I think the shamans and their resorting to evil to fight evil were the metaphoric version of what Buffy was doing with her training sessions (well, Kennedy was doing them, but under Buffy's aegis) and harshness. In the last moment, she understood it was wrong and repudiated that approach. She understood that violence is not enough; a little late, of course, for Spike (but I think he'll be happier with some of the violence back anyway) and Willow who may be experiencing the Olivia syndrome in her love life as a result of this. himiko

2003-02-19 19:32:05+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Dan Solomon <dansolo@attbi.com>)


"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in news:%fM4a.9681$_c6.998111@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net: > I'm not too sure what to make of the "Big Bitch" speech(as a play on > "Big Bad"). For most of the show's history it's been written for the > audience to identify with Buffy herself, but I'm pretty sure in that > scene that the audience is supposed to identify with the rest of the > gang and not with Buffy. I really hope the writers provide some > explanation for this change in character at some point. It is not a change in character. Buffy has been this way since the very beginning. -- Dan Solomon

2003-02-19 19:32:05+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Dan Solomon <dansolo@attbi.com>)


"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in news:%fM4a.9681$_c6.998111@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net: > I'm not too sure what to make of the "Big Bitch" speech(as a play on > "Big Bad"). For most of the show's history it's been written for the > audience to identify with Buffy herself, but I'm pretty sure in that > scene that the audience is supposed to identify with the rest of the > gang and not with Buffy. I really hope the writers provide some > explanation for this change in character at some point. It is not a change in character. Buffy has been this way since the very beginning. -- Dan Solomon

2003-02-19 19:36:09+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Dan Solomon <dansolo@attbi.com>)


tvfan87656@aol.comnospam (James) wrote in news:20030219044047.05111.00000934@mb-cn.aol.com: >>Luna lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com wrote: > > > >>SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >> >>I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in >>this episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into >>our heads that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't >>fight as well as her, and then have it turn out later that the way to >>defeat the First is by some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. >>In order to show that someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to >>show them having that belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in >>everyone being useless than she usually believes in anything. > > Or they wanted to show that Buffy is a self-righteous control freak > who, as always, has to lash out at other people because she hates > herself so much. > > The writing for so many of the characters this week was godawful. I felt just the opposite. I thought the writing for the characters worked very well, and was very believable. I think that Buffy and Kennedy's behavior were very believable. Buffy has gone though this many times before, and Kennedy was intentionally annoying to set up her reaction to Willow cutting loose. I also really liked Xander and Dawn, and even Andrew. Dawn followed up with what happened in "Potential", and it was nice to have Andrew not serve as just a mouthpiece for a bunch of lame nerd jokes. -- Dan Solomon

2003-02-19 19:36:09+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Dan Solomon <dansolo@attbi.com>)


tvfan87656@aol.comnospam (James) wrote in news:20030219044047.05111.00000934@mb-cn.aol.com: >>Luna lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com wrote: > > > >>SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >> >>I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in >>this episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into >>our heads that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't >>fight as well as her, and then have it turn out later that the way to >>defeat the First is by some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. >>In order to show that someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to >>show them having that belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in >>everyone being useless than she usually believes in anything. > > Or they wanted to show that Buffy is a self-righteous control freak > who, as always, has to lash out at other people because she hates > herself so much. > > The writing for so many of the characters this week was godawful. I felt just the opposite. I thought the writing for the characters worked very well, and was very believable. I think that Buffy and Kennedy's behavior were very believable. Buffy has gone though this many times before, and Kennedy was intentionally annoying to set up her reaction to Willow cutting loose. I also really liked Xander and Dawn, and even Andrew. Dawn followed up with what happened in "Potential", and it was nice to have Andrew not serve as just a mouthpiece for a bunch of lame nerd jokes. -- Dan Solomon

2003-02-19 19:58:19+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: : SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this : episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads : that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as : her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by : some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that : someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that : belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than : she usually believes in anything. I think there's a milder version of this that is more true. Buffy was being harsh in order to scare anyone away from spending all night letting the First play on their fears. Chloe should have called for help, left the room, fessed up immediately like Andrew did last week. FE has no physical power, after all, only representatives and telepathy. Buffy was very very upset to have been bested again, not for the blow to her ego, but for the loss of a human in her care. However, the message of the episode was from the First Slayer "It's not enough." Buffy often gets all extreme when she's panicked and stressed (The Gift, Weight of the World, OMWF, etc.). I think, even in the episode, she began to realize that violence wasn't the way. I think the way to defeat the legion of Chaka Khans is going to be something other than hand-to-hand combat. Something magickal, maybe. But I also think Buffy is going to have a Zen/nonviolence moment of passive resistance. She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to go Ghandi on him. shawn

2003-02-19 19:58:19+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: : SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this : episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads : that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as : her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by : some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that : someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that : belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than : she usually believes in anything. I think there's a milder version of this that is more true. Buffy was being harsh in order to scare anyone away from spending all night letting the First play on their fears. Chloe should have called for help, left the room, fessed up immediately like Andrew did last week. FE has no physical power, after all, only representatives and telepathy. Buffy was very very upset to have been bested again, not for the blow to her ego, but for the loss of a human in her care. However, the message of the episode was from the First Slayer "It's not enough." Buffy often gets all extreme when she's panicked and stressed (The Gift, Weight of the World, OMWF, etc.). I think, even in the episode, she began to realize that violence wasn't the way. I think the way to defeat the legion of Chaka Khans is going to be something other than hand-to-hand combat. Something magickal, maybe. But I also think Buffy is going to have a Zen/nonviolence moment of passive resistance. She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to go Ghandi on him. shawn

2003-02-19 19:59:06+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


James <tvfan87656@aol.comnospam> wrote: :>Luna lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com wrote: :>SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :> :>I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this :>episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads :>that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as :>her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by :>some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that :>someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that :>belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than :>she usually believes in anything. : Or they wanted to show that Buffy is a self-righteous control freak who, as : always, has to lash out at other people because she hates herself so much. She was just a little bit upset over Chloe's death. I know none of us cared about her, but Buffy did. Shawn

2003-02-19 19:59:06+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


James <tvfan87656@aol.comnospam> wrote: :>Luna lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com wrote: :>SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :>. :> :>I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this :>episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads :>that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as :>her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by :>some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that :>someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that :>belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than :>she usually believes in anything. : Or they wanted to show that Buffy is a self-righteous control freak who, as : always, has to lash out at other people because she hates herself so much. She was just a little bit upset over Chloe's death. I know none of us cared about her, but Buffy did. Shawn

2003-02-19 20:04:23+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Dacie <solarchic8@yahoo.com> wrote: : Buffy can fight, but shes not so book smart. She shows no interest : for anyone but herself. She doesn't even know the SIT's names This is utter bullshit. Buffy has taken them into her home, has devoted herself to training them, and has already put herself through hell to protect them. I'm repeatedly amazed on this group by how frequently bitchy attitudes, bad moods or tantrums from our over-burdened heroic characters instantly equate to "god, she's a selfish bitch." Does context just fly out the window every time there's a scene change? : yet...how much time has she been spending with them? "It is Chloe, : right?" Pfft. And another thing-First she wants Spike as some puppy : dog-non fighty-soul boy and now she wants him to get in touch with his : inner demon? What's that all about?! She needs to realize that she Desperation? : isn't some god who can make people jump whenever she wants them to. A : little too Glory-like if you ask me. Thats just my opinion. And they need to realize the situation they're in; why should it all be on her shoulders? Shawn

2003-02-19 20:04:23+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Dacie <solarchic8@yahoo.com> wrote: : Buffy can fight, but shes not so book smart. She shows no interest : for anyone but herself. She doesn't even know the SIT's names This is utter bullshit. Buffy has taken them into her home, has devoted herself to training them, and has already put herself through hell to protect them. I'm repeatedly amazed on this group by how frequently bitchy attitudes, bad moods or tantrums from our over-burdened heroic characters instantly equate to "god, she's a selfish bitch." Does context just fly out the window every time there's a scene change? : yet...how much time has she been spending with them? "It is Chloe, : right?" Pfft. And another thing-First she wants Spike as some puppy : dog-non fighty-soul boy and now she wants him to get in touch with his : inner demon? What's that all about?! She needs to realize that she Desperation? : isn't some god who can make people jump whenever she wants them to. A : little too Glory-like if you ask me. Thats just my opinion. And they need to realize the situation they're in; why should it all be on her shoulders? Shawn

2003-02-19 20:06:15+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote: : I'm not too sure what to make of the "Big Bitch" speech(as a play on "Big : Bad"). For most of the show's history it's been written for the audience to : identify with Buffy herself, but I'm pretty sure in that scene that the : audience is supposed to identify with the rest of the gang and not with : Buffy. I really hope the writers provide some explanation for this change : in character at some point. I think we're supposed to be cognizant of the situation they're in. Just because your commanding officer berates you on the eve of battle doesn't mean he is irrational or full of hate. He could just be worried. As Willow said, kindness and cupcakes work, too, but she was aware Buffy was giving a motivational speech. Shawn

2003-02-19 20:06:15+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote: : I'm not too sure what to make of the "Big Bitch" speech(as a play on "Big : Bad"). For most of the show's history it's been written for the audience to : identify with Buffy herself, but I'm pretty sure in that scene that the : audience is supposed to identify with the rest of the gang and not with : Buffy. I really hope the writers provide some explanation for this change : in character at some point. I think we're supposed to be cognizant of the situation they're in. Just because your commanding officer berates you on the eve of battle doesn't mean he is irrational or full of hate. He could just be worried. As Willow said, kindness and cupcakes work, too, but she was aware Buffy was giving a motivational speech. Shawn

2003-02-19 20:08:46+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Estron <estron@tfs.net> wrote: : Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Luna wrote: :> I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this :> episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads :> that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as :> her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by :> some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that :> someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that :> belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than :> she usually believes in anything. : It's been part of this show's stock in trade since the beginning to say : one thing and then have the characters do the opposite. "Well, I'm sure : Buffy's having the time of her life," followed by a hard cut to Buffy : fighting for that life against five or so vampires. : So, yeah. It's becoming obvious that power alone won't get it done, that : "it's not enough," so something else (probably that no one saw coming) : will be the determining factor. Like the re-cursing of Angelus, or the : magical combination spell, or the revelation that Dawn's and Buffy's : blood is the same, or the infusion of good magick into Dark Willow. Exactly. Thank you. Now, the questions will be: 1) Will it be effective and mind-blowing? Will it tie in with basic themes of the show (as this week's reveal of the Slayer having been created in bondage does)? 2) or cheesy and deus-ex-machina? 3) And will the newsgroup be able to tell the difference? Shawn

2003-02-19 20:08:46+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Estron <estron@tfs.net> wrote: : Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Luna wrote: :> I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this :> episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads :> that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as :> her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by :> some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that :> someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that :> belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than :> she usually believes in anything. : It's been part of this show's stock in trade since the beginning to say : one thing and then have the characters do the opposite. "Well, I'm sure : Buffy's having the time of her life," followed by a hard cut to Buffy : fighting for that life against five or so vampires. : So, yeah. It's becoming obvious that power alone won't get it done, that : "it's not enough," so something else (probably that no one saw coming) : will be the determining factor. Like the re-cursing of Angelus, or the : magical combination spell, or the revelation that Dawn's and Buffy's : blood is the same, or the infusion of good magick into Dark Willow. Exactly. Thank you. Now, the questions will be: 1) Will it be effective and mind-blowing? Will it tie in with basic themes of the show (as this week's reveal of the Slayer having been created in bondage does)? 2) or cheesy and deus-ex-machina? 3) And will the newsgroup be able to tell the difference? Shawn

2003-02-19 20:23:10+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (sillyman@famous.com)


On 19 Feb 2003 19:58:19 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: >Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: >: SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . > >: She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to >go Ghandi on him. > Like the way she went Ghandi on Ken? I'd like to see that again! >

2003-02-19 20:23:10+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (sillyman@famous.com)


On 19 Feb 2003 19:58:19 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: >Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: >: SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . > >: She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to >go Ghandi on him. > Like the way she went Ghandi on Ken? I'd like to see that again! >

2003-02-19 21:28:36+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (klyfix@aol.comedy)


In article <lunachick-EC96F6.01304219022003@news.mindspring.com>, Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> writes: > >SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. > >I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this >episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads >that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as >her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by >some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that >someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that >belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than >she usually believes in anything. > If it turns out that the way to defeat The First is True Love I suspect that many viewers will scream and possibly destroy things. :) V. S. Greene : klyfix@aol.com : Boston, near Arkham... Eckzylon: http://m1.aol.com/klyfix/eckzylon.html A rodent with mad skillz, uh, no.

2003-02-19 21:28:36+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (klyfix@aol.comedy)


In article <lunachick-EC96F6.01304219022003@news.mindspring.com>, Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> writes: > >SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. > >I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this >episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads >that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as >her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by >some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that >someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that >belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than >she usually believes in anything. > If it turns out that the way to defeat The First is True Love I suspect that many viewers will scream and possibly destroy things. :) V. S. Greene : klyfix@aol.com : Boston, near Arkham... Eckzylon: http://m1.aol.com/klyfix/eckzylon.html A rodent with mad skillz, uh, no.

2003-02-19 22:57:31+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


sillyman@famous.com wrote: : On 19 Feb 2003 19:58:19 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: :>Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: :>: SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :> :>: She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to :>go Ghandi on him. :> : Like the way she went Ghandi on Ken? I'd like to see that again! Ken? Shawn

2003-02-19 22:57:31+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


sillyman@famous.com wrote: : On 19 Feb 2003 19:58:19 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: :>Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: :>: SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :>: . :> :>: She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to :>go Ghandi on him. :> : Like the way she went Ghandi on Ken? I'd like to see that again! Ken? Shawn

2003-02-19 23:27:22-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <b31j8k$qfl$4@news.fas.harvard.edu>, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: > himiko <himiko@animail.net> wrote: > : Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message > : news:<b30nkr$neo$2@news.fas.harvard.edu>... > :> Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: > :> : SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> > :> > : and repudiated that approach. She understood that violence is not > : enough; a little late, of course, for Spike (but I think he'll be > : happier with some of the violence back anyway) and Willow who may > : be experiencing the Olivia syndrome in her love life as a result of > : this. > > A little late, and she doubted herself in the final scene, too. As > Buffy always does after making a big decision. That's why her > assertions are so much fun; because you know how hardwon they are > when she actually makes one. > > What's "the Olivia syndrome?" I know Oedipus and Elektra, but not so > much Olivia. > > Shawn I suspect that's a reference to Giles' fourth season girlfriend Olivia, who dropped him like a hot potato when she found out he wasn't kidding about how dangerous his life was. Same thing Virginia did with Wesley. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-02-19 23:27:22-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <b31j8k$qfl$4@news.fas.harvard.edu>, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: > himiko <himiko@animail.net> wrote: > : Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message > : news:<b30nkr$neo$2@news.fas.harvard.edu>... > :> Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: > :> : SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> : . > :> > :> > : and repudiated that approach. She understood that violence is not > : enough; a little late, of course, for Spike (but I think he'll be > : happier with some of the violence back anyway) and Willow who may > : be experiencing the Olivia syndrome in her love life as a result of > : this. > > A little late, and she doubted herself in the final scene, too. As > Buffy always does after making a big decision. That's why her > assertions are so much fun; because you know how hardwon they are > when she actually makes one. > > What's "the Olivia syndrome?" I know Oedipus and Elektra, but not so > much Olivia. > > Shawn I suspect that's a reference to Giles' fourth season girlfriend Olivia, who dropped him like a hot potato when she found out he wasn't kidding about how dangerous his life was. Same thing Virginia did with Wesley. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-02-19 23:48:59+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (sillyman@famous.com)


On 19 Feb 2003 22:57:31 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: >:>: She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to >:>go Ghandi on him. >:> >: Like the way she went Ghandi on Ken? I'd like to see that again! The head demon from Anne. Wasn't his name Ken?

2003-02-19 23:48:59+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (sillyman@famous.com)


On 19 Feb 2003 22:57:31 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: >:>: She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to >:>go Ghandi on him. >:> >: Like the way she went Ghandi on Ken? I'd like to see that again! The head demon from Anne. Wasn't his name Ken?

2003-02-20 03:44:54+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Ken Arromdee <arromdee@mauve.rahul.net> wrote: : In article <b30o07$neo$4@news.fas.harvard.edu>, : Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: :>I'm repeatedly amazed on this group by how frequently bitchy attitudes, :>bad moods or tantrums from our over-burdened heroic characters instantly :>equate to "god, she's a selfish bitch." Does context just fly out the :>window every time there's a scene change? : No, no, the context *is* the problem. : Most of the time when a character is bitchy it gets presented as a good thing. : That's the problem--not that Buffy's bitchy, but that we're supposed to : identify with her and think how cool it would be to be a strong leader like : her. My thought, rather, was that we were supposed to notice how stressful her burden was in that scene. Not to wish to trade places with her, but to be glad we don't have to. Empathy, not emulation. Shawn

2003-02-20 03:44:54+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Ken Arromdee <arromdee@mauve.rahul.net> wrote: : In article <b30o07$neo$4@news.fas.harvard.edu>, : Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: :>I'm repeatedly amazed on this group by how frequently bitchy attitudes, :>bad moods or tantrums from our over-burdened heroic characters instantly :>equate to "god, she's a selfish bitch." Does context just fly out the :>window every time there's a scene change? : No, no, the context *is* the problem. : Most of the time when a character is bitchy it gets presented as a good thing. : That's the problem--not that Buffy's bitchy, but that we're supposed to : identify with her and think how cool it would be to be a strong leader like : her. My thought, rather, was that we were supposed to notice how stressful her burden was in that scene. Not to wish to trade places with her, but to be glad we don't have to. Empathy, not emulation. Shawn

2003-02-20 03:46:30+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


sillyman@famous.com wrote: : On 19 Feb 2003 22:57:31 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: :>:>: She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to :>:>go Ghandi on him. :>:> :>: Like the way she went Ghandi on Ken? I'd like to see that again! : The head demon from Anne. Wasn't his name Ken? Ah. Remember his face well, but not his name. Did she say somethig about Ghandi in that episode? Chanterelle was more passive than peaceful, IIRC. Shawn

2003-02-20 03:46:30+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


sillyman@famous.com wrote: : On 19 Feb 2003 22:57:31 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: :>:>: She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to :>:>go Ghandi on him. :>:> :>: Like the way she went Ghandi on Ken? I'd like to see that again! : The head demon from Anne. Wasn't his name Ken? Ah. Remember his face well, but not his name. Did she say somethig about Ghandi in that episode? Chanterelle was more passive than peaceful, IIRC. Shawn

2003-02-20 03:49:40+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


himiko <himiko@animail.net> wrote: : Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<b30nkr$neo$2@news.fas.harvard.edu>... :> Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: :> : SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> :> : and repudiated that approach. She understood that violence is not : enough; a little late, of course, for Spike (but I think he'll be : happier with some of the violence back anyway) and Willow who may be : experiencing the Olivia syndrome in her love life as a result of this. A little late, and she doubted herself in the final scene, too. As Buffy always does after making a big decision. That's why her assertions are so much fun; because you know how hardwon they are when she actually makes one. What's "the Olivia syndrome?" I know Oedipus and Elektra, but not so much Olivia. Shawn

2003-02-20 03:49:40+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


himiko <himiko@animail.net> wrote: : Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<b30nkr$neo$2@news.fas.harvard.edu>... :> Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: :> : SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> : . :> :> : and repudiated that approach. She understood that violence is not : enough; a little late, of course, for Spike (but I think he'll be : happier with some of the violence back anyway) and Willow who may be : experiencing the Olivia syndrome in her love life as a result of this. A little late, and she doubted herself in the final scene, too. As Buffy always does after making a big decision. That's why her assertions are so much fun; because you know how hardwon they are when she actually makes one. What's "the Olivia syndrome?" I know Oedipus and Elektra, but not so much Olivia. Shawn

2003-02-20 06:06:05+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: : In article <b31j8k$qfl$4@news.fas.harvard.edu>, Shawn Hill : <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: :> himiko <himiko@animail.net> wrote: :> : Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message :> : news:<b30nkr$neo$2@news.fas.harvard.edu>... :> :> Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: :> :> : SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> What's "the Olivia syndrome?" I know Oedipus and Elektra, but not so :> much Olivia. :> :> Shawn : I suspect that's a reference to Giles' fourth season girlfriend Olivia, : who dropped him like a hot potato when she found out he wasn't kidding : about how dangerous his life was. Same thing Virginia did with Wesley. Oh, thanks Don. That makes sense. I don't agree, then. Kennedy was a bit taken aback by her wake-up call regarding the uber-witch, but I think her lust for same will win out ultimately. Shawn

2003-02-20 06:06:05+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: : In article <b31j8k$qfl$4@news.fas.harvard.edu>, Shawn Hill : <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: :> himiko <himiko@animail.net> wrote: :> : Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message :> : news:<b30nkr$neo$2@news.fas.harvard.edu>... :> :> Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: :> :> : SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> : . :> :> What's "the Olivia syndrome?" I know Oedipus and Elektra, but not so :> much Olivia. :> :> Shawn : I suspect that's a reference to Giles' fourth season girlfriend Olivia, : who dropped him like a hot potato when she found out he wasn't kidding : about how dangerous his life was. Same thing Virginia did with Wesley. Oh, thanks Don. That makes sense. I don't agree, then. Kennedy was a bit taken aback by her wake-up call regarding the uber-witch, but I think her lust for same will win out ultimately. Shawn

2003-02-20 11:14:40-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu>)


Shawn Hill wrote: > Dacie <solarchic8@yahoo.com> wrote: > > : Buffy can fight, but shes not so book smart. She shows no interest > : for anyone but herself. She doesn't even know the SIT's names > > This is utter bullshit. Buffy has taken them into her home, has devoted > herself to training them, and has already put herself through hell to > protect them. > > I'm repeatedly amazed on this group by how frequently bitchy attitudes, > bad moods or tantrums from our over-burdened heroic characters instantly > equate to "god, she's a selfish bitch." Does context just fly out the > window every time there's a scene change? Apparently, yes. Even context within the episode. Buffy started the episode in good humor, amiable to Wood, Spike and Willow, tolerant of Andrew. I'm almost ready to go back and rate this one higher now because of what I think Buffy's speech actually accomplished: both Spike and Willow were jump-started out of their self-absorption and into doing something. Buffy managed, not entirely consciously, I think, to get them both re-evaluating what they were doing. In the process she was harsh to the others, but that wasn't necessarily all bad, either. Anya, in particular, got batted around, maybe not all that fairly, but frankly she's there out of fear for herself rather than out of comraderie or a desire to help. That's baggage I think Buffy would accept as long as Anya makes herself useful. Randy M.

2003-02-20 11:14:40-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu>)


Shawn Hill wrote: > Dacie <solarchic8@yahoo.com> wrote: > > : Buffy can fight, but shes not so book smart. She shows no interest > : for anyone but herself. She doesn't even know the SIT's names > > This is utter bullshit. Buffy has taken them into her home, has devoted > herself to training them, and has already put herself through hell to > protect them. > > I'm repeatedly amazed on this group by how frequently bitchy attitudes, > bad moods or tantrums from our over-burdened heroic characters instantly > equate to "god, she's a selfish bitch." Does context just fly out the > window every time there's a scene change? Apparently, yes. Even context within the episode. Buffy started the episode in good humor, amiable to Wood, Spike and Willow, tolerant of Andrew. I'm almost ready to go back and rate this one higher now because of what I think Buffy's speech actually accomplished: both Spike and Willow were jump-started out of their self-absorption and into doing something. Buffy managed, not entirely consciously, I think, to get them both re-evaluating what they were doing. In the process she was harsh to the others, but that wasn't necessarily all bad, either. Anya, in particular, got batted around, maybe not all that fairly, but frankly she's there out of fear for herself rather than out of comraderie or a desire to help. That's baggage I think Buffy would accept as long as Anya makes herself useful. Randy M.

2003-02-20 14:20:55-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu>)


Shawn Hill wrote: > Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> wrote: > > : others, but that wasn't necessarily all bad, either. Anya, in > : particular, got batted around, maybe not all that fairly, but frankly > : she's there out of fear for herself rather than out of comraderie or a > : desire to help. That's baggage I think Buffy would accept as long as > : Anya makes herself useful. > > Anya's made her use apparent time and again. She came up with all the > anti-Glory strategies in The Gift. That was then. > She's a truth sayer, cutting through > emotion to get at hard fact. She's smart and resourceful, a survivor if > there ever was one. Buffy was being unfair. But, her point, that Anya was > scared, was well taken. Being scared is reasonable. > > Shawn Agreed. But the naggy, defensive Anya isn't always useful. The main thing is, Buffy was overwrought and lashing out. But not all the lashing out was unnecessary, and some of it was right on target -- most pointedly, Willow and Spike. Randy M.

2003-02-20 14:20:55-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu>)


Shawn Hill wrote: > Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> wrote: > > : others, but that wasn't necessarily all bad, either. Anya, in > : particular, got batted around, maybe not all that fairly, but frankly > : she's there out of fear for herself rather than out of comraderie or a > : desire to help. That's baggage I think Buffy would accept as long as > : Anya makes herself useful. > > Anya's made her use apparent time and again. She came up with all the > anti-Glory strategies in The Gift. That was then. > She's a truth sayer, cutting through > emotion to get at hard fact. She's smart and resourceful, a survivor if > there ever was one. Buffy was being unfair. But, her point, that Anya was > scared, was well taken. Being scared is reasonable. > > Shawn Agreed. But the naggy, defensive Anya isn't always useful. The main thing is, Buffy was overwrought and lashing out. But not all the lashing out was unnecessary, and some of it was right on target -- most pointedly, Willow and Spike. Randy M.

2003-02-20 16:35:35+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net>)


Don Sample wrote: > Shawn Hill wrote: > >> himiko wrote: >>> Shawn Hill wrote ... >>>> Luna wrote: >>>>> SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>> >>> and repudiated that approach. She understood that violence is not >>> enough; a little late, of course, for Spike (but I think he'll be >>> happier with some of the violence back anyway) and Willow who may >>> be experiencing the Olivia syndrome in her love life as a result of >>> this. >> >> A little late, and she doubted herself in the final scene, too. As >> Buffy always does after making a big decision. That's why her >> assertions are so much fun; because you know how hardwon they are >> when she actually makes one. >> >> What's "the Olivia syndrome?" I know Oedipus and Elektra, but not so >> much Olivia. >> >> Shawn > > I suspect that's a reference to Giles' fourth season girlfriend > Olivia, who dropped him like a hot potato when she found out he > wasn't kidding about how dangerous his life was. Same thing Virginia > did with Wesley. I thought she dropped him when she found out that he wasn't really one of the original members of Pink Floyd. Paul Speaker-to-Customers

2003-02-20 16:35:35+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net>)


Don Sample wrote: > Shawn Hill wrote: > >> himiko wrote: >>> Shawn Hill wrote ... >>>> Luna wrote: >>>>> SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>>> . >>>> >>> and repudiated that approach. She understood that violence is not >>> enough; a little late, of course, for Spike (but I think he'll be >>> happier with some of the violence back anyway) and Willow who may >>> be experiencing the Olivia syndrome in her love life as a result of >>> this. >> >> A little late, and she doubted herself in the final scene, too. As >> Buffy always does after making a big decision. That's why her >> assertions are so much fun; because you know how hardwon they are >> when she actually makes one. >> >> What's "the Olivia syndrome?" I know Oedipus and Elektra, but not so >> much Olivia. >> >> Shawn > > I suspect that's a reference to Giles' fourth season girlfriend > Olivia, who dropped him like a hot potato when she found out he > wasn't kidding about how dangerous his life was. Same thing Virginia > did with Wesley. I thought she dropped him when she found out that he wasn't really one of the original members of Pink Floyd. Paul Speaker-to-Customers

2003-02-20 18:02:19+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> wrote: : others, but that wasn't necessarily all bad, either. Anya, in : particular, got batted around, maybe not all that fairly, but frankly : she's there out of fear for herself rather than out of comraderie or a : desire to help. That's baggage I think Buffy would accept as long as : Anya makes herself useful. Anya's made her use apparent time and again. She came up with all the anti-Glory strategies in The Gift. She's a truth sayer, cutting through emotion to get at hard fact. She's smart and resourceful, a survivor if there ever was one. Buffy was being unfair. But, her point, that Anya was scared, was well taken. Being scared is reasonable. Shawn

2003-02-20 18:02:19+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> wrote: : others, but that wasn't necessarily all bad, either. Anya, in : particular, got batted around, maybe not all that fairly, but frankly : she's there out of fear for herself rather than out of comraderie or a : desire to help. That's baggage I think Buffy would accept as long as : Anya makes herself useful. Anya's made her use apparent time and again. She came up with all the anti-Glory strategies in The Gift. She's a truth sayer, cutting through emotion to get at hard fact. She's smart and resourceful, a survivor if there ever was one. Buffy was being unfair. But, her point, that Anya was scared, was well taken. Being scared is reasonable. Shawn

2003-02-20 21:30:45+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> wrote: :> Anya's made her use apparent time and again. She came up with all the :> anti-Glory strategies in The Gift. : That was then. So Buffy's all Miss Jackson if you're nasty these days? "What Have You Done for me Lately?" Gotcha. : Agreed. But the naggy, defensive Anya isn't always useful. The main : thing is, Buffy was overwrought and lashing out. But not all the lashing : out was unnecessary, and some of it was right on target -- most : pointedly, Willow and Spike. Yup. Well, maybe. Like Giles, I'm still scared of Spike. Shawn

2003-02-20 21:30:45+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu>)


Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> wrote: :> Anya's made her use apparent time and again. She came up with all the :> anti-Glory strategies in The Gift. : That was then. So Buffy's all Miss Jackson if you're nasty these days? "What Have You Done for me Lately?" Gotcha. : Agreed. But the naggy, defensive Anya isn't always useful. The main : thing is, Buffy was overwrought and lashing out. But not all the lashing : out was unnecessary, and some of it was right on target -- most : pointedly, Willow and Spike. Yup. Well, maybe. Like Giles, I'm still scared of Spike. Shawn

2003-02-21 09:10:02-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu>)


Shawn Hill wrote: > Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> wrote: > > :> Anya's made her use apparent time and again. She came up with all the > :> anti-Glory strategies in The Gift. > > : That was then. > > So Buffy's all Miss Jackson if you're nasty these days? "What Have You > Done for me Lately?" Gotcha. Remember context of the ep., too: Anya had been doing nothing but complaining. When Buffy went off the deep end -- and I don't deny that she was lashing out, I just debate how unfair it was overall -- she was reacting to what had been going on around her that day as well as to the last few weeks. There's always been a strain between Anya & the Scoobs sometimes in spite of her helpfulness and her connection to Xander, sometimes because of her nearly supernatural ability to drive mild-mannered people into apoplexy via nattering. > : Agreed. But the naggy, defensive Anya isn't always useful. The main > : thing is, Buffy was overwrought and lashing out. But not all the lashing > : out was unnecessary, and some of it was right on target -- most > : pointedly, Willow and Spike. > > Yup. Well, maybe. Like Giles, I'm still scared of Spike. > > Shawn > And I think you should be. Well, not you, personally. Doubt you'll meet him. But Buffy and crew, yeah. Need to keep an eye on that guy, they do. Randy M.

2003-02-21 09:10:02-05:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu>)


Shawn Hill wrote: > Randy Money <rbmoney@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> wrote: > > :> Anya's made her use apparent time and again. She came up with all the > :> anti-Glory strategies in The Gift. > > : That was then. > > So Buffy's all Miss Jackson if you're nasty these days? "What Have You > Done for me Lately?" Gotcha. Remember context of the ep., too: Anya had been doing nothing but complaining. When Buffy went off the deep end -- and I don't deny that she was lashing out, I just debate how unfair it was overall -- she was reacting to what had been going on around her that day as well as to the last few weeks. There's always been a strain between Anya & the Scoobs sometimes in spite of her helpfulness and her connection to Xander, sometimes because of her nearly supernatural ability to drive mild-mannered people into apoplexy via nattering. > : Agreed. But the naggy, defensive Anya isn't always useful. The main > : thing is, Buffy was overwrought and lashing out. But not all the lashing > : out was unnecessary, and some of it was right on target -- most > : pointedly, Willow and Spike. > > Yup. Well, maybe. Like Giles, I'm still scared of Spike. > > Shawn > And I think you should be. Well, not you, personally. Doubt you'll meet him. But Buffy and crew, yeah. Need to keep an eye on that guy, they do. Randy M.

2003-02-21 19:55:27-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>)


1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Harold Groot wrote: > On 19 Feb 2003 19:58:19 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: > > > >I think the way to defeat the legion of Chaka Khans is going to be > >something other than hand-to-hand combat. Something magickal, maybe. But > >I also think Buffy is going to have a Zen/nonviolence moment of passive > >resistance. She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to > >go Ghandi on him. > > Ummm... do you mean like if Ghandi was really, really pissed? So if you purge yourself of all violent emotions Vulcan style, neither the First nor its minions can harm you? Spike will have a hard time purging himself of violent emotions!

2003-02-21 19:55:27-08:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>)


1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Harold Groot wrote: > On 19 Feb 2003 19:58:19 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: > > > >I think the way to defeat the legion of Chaka Khans is going to be > >something other than hand-to-hand combat. Something magickal, maybe. But > >I also think Buffy is going to have a Zen/nonviolence moment of passive > >resistance. She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to > >go Ghandi on him. > > Ummm... do you mean like if Ghandi was really, really pissed? So if you purge yourself of all violent emotions Vulcan style, neither the First nor its minions can harm you? Spike will have a hard time purging himself of violent emotions!

2003-02-22 02:30:12+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (quester@infi.net)


On 19 Feb 2003 19:58:19 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: >Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: >: SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . > >: I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this >: episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads >: that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as >: her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by >: some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that >: someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that >: belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than >: she usually believes in anything. > >I think there's a milder version of this that is more true. Buffy was >being harsh in order to scare anyone away from spending all night letting >the First play on their fears. Chloe should have called for help, left >the room, fessed up immediately like Andrew did last week. FE has no >physical power, after all, only representatives and telepathy. Buffy was >very very upset to have been bested again, not for the blow to her ego, >but for the loss of a human in her care. > >However, the message of the episode was from the First Slayer "It's not >enough." Buffy often gets all extreme when she's panicked and stressed >(The Gift, Weight of the World, OMWF, etc.). I think, even in the >episode, she began to realize that violence wasn't the way. > >I think the way to defeat the legion of Chaka Khans is going to be >something other than hand-to-hand combat. Something magickal, maybe. But >I also think Buffy is going to have a Zen/nonviolence moment of passive >resistance. She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to >go Ghandi on him. Ummm... do you mean like if Ghandi was really, really pissed? (For our British readers, that's using the American usage pissed=angry, not the British usage pissed=drunk.)

2003-02-22 02:30:12+00:00 - Re: Buffy's speech in Get it Done - (quester@infi.net)


On 19 Feb 2003 19:58:19 GMT, Shawn Hill <shill@fas.harvard.edu> wrote: >Luna <lunachick@nospammindspring.com> wrote: >: SPOILERS for Get it Done, 2-19-03 >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . >: . > >: I wonder if the unusual harshness of Buffy's speech to her army in this >: episode was so over the top for the purpose of hammering it into our heads >: that Buffy thinks everyone is useless, since they can't fight as well as >: her, and then have it turn out later that the way to defeat the First is by >: some non-violent means, thus proving her wrong. In order to show that >: someone was wrong in a belief, you first have to show them having that >: belief, and Buffy seemed to believe harder in everyone being useless than >: she usually believes in anything. > >I think there's a milder version of this that is more true. Buffy was >being harsh in order to scare anyone away from spending all night letting >the First play on their fears. Chloe should have called for help, left >the room, fessed up immediately like Andrew did last week. FE has no >physical power, after all, only representatives and telepathy. Buffy was >very very upset to have been bested again, not for the blow to her ego, >but for the loss of a human in her care. > >However, the message of the episode was from the First Slayer "It's not >enough." Buffy often gets all extreme when she's panicked and stressed >(The Gift, Weight of the World, OMWF, etc.). I think, even in the >episode, she began to realize that violence wasn't the way. > >I think the way to defeat the legion of Chaka Khans is going to be >something other than hand-to-hand combat. Something magickal, maybe. But >I also think Buffy is going to have a Zen/nonviolence moment of passive >resistance. She's not going to get Medieval on FE's ass; she's going to >go Ghandi on him. Ummm... do you mean like if Ghandi was really, really pissed? (For our British readers, that's using the American usage pissed=angry, not the British usage pissed=drunk.)