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2003-04-29 22:25:15-07:00 - Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and never pointed the gun at the SITs. Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole scene was very poorly done.

2003-04-29 22:25:15-07:00 - Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and never pointed the gun at the SITs. Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole scene was very poorly done.

2003-04-30 00:59:17-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>)


1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Carmikl wrote: > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole > scene was very poorly done. Why didn't Faith tell Buffy that the cops had gone nuts?

2003-04-30 00:59:17-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>)


1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Carmikl wrote: > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole > scene was very poorly done. Why didn't Faith tell Buffy that the cops had gone nuts?

2003-04-30 05:35:44-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k wrote: > > On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:25:15 -0700, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > >something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > >the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > >one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > >give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > >never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > Actually the cop inside was performing an illegal act. They were right > he can't stop them from going outside. If they want to wail on Faith > wait untill she is in a jail cell, where they can barr other people > from entering. Since when can't the police prevent a crowd from interfering in the apprehension of a criminal? > > >Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > >expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > >resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole > >scene was very poorly done.

2003-04-30 05:35:44-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k wrote: > > On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:25:15 -0700, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > >something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > >the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > >one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > >give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > >never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > Actually the cop inside was performing an illegal act. They were right > he can't stop them from going outside. If they want to wail on Faith > wait untill she is in a jail cell, where they can barr other people > from entering. Since when can't the police prevent a crowd from interfering in the apprehension of a criminal? > > >Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > >expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > >resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole > >scene was very poorly done.

2003-04-30 06:39:44-05:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > never pointed the gun at the SITs. That cop was clearly out of control. Firing a shotgun into the ceiling of a night club, causing the light fixture to come crashing down into the crowd... holding the entire club under house arrest without probable cause... verbally threatening to shoot them all...

2003-04-30 06:39:44-05:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > never pointed the gun at the SITs. That cop was clearly out of control. Firing a shotgun into the ceiling of a night club, causing the light fixture to come crashing down into the crowd... holding the entire club under house arrest without probable cause... verbally threatening to shoot them all...

2003-04-30 08:34:54+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k <o>, l, c, z, y, k@interaccess.com)


On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:25:15 -0700, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: >something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know >the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the >one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't >give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and >never pointed the gun at the SITs. > Actually the cop inside was performing an illegal act. They were right he can't stop them from going outside. If they want to wail on Faith wait untill she is in a jail cell, where they can barr other people from entering. >Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been >expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to >resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole >scene was very poorly done.

2003-04-30 08:34:54+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k <o>, l, c, z, y, k@interaccess.com)


On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:25:15 -0700, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: >something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know >the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the >one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't >give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and >never pointed the gun at the SITs. > Actually the cop inside was performing an illegal act. They were right he can't stop them from going outside. If they want to wail on Faith wait untill she is in a jail cell, where they can barr other people from entering. >Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been >expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to >resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole >scene was very poorly done.

2003-04-30 11:10:13-04:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com... > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > give them the right to attack him. Maybe not, but being fairly assured that three grown men were out there wacking the snot out of Faith was reason to attack him. Police don't have the right to imprison innocent citizens for any reason or for any length of time. They didn't charge Faith, they didn't arrest her, and they didn't read her rights. This was clearly a case of cops out of control with power, meteing out justice as they saw fit. Faith said "I'm not going back to jail" and their response, quite clearly, was "Who said anything about jail?" They weren't there to arrest her they were there to inflict their own brand of justice, getting their jollies by ganging up on a girl. In other words bad cops, and in this world there really is nothing more evil or more deserving of a good ass kicking. The scene was fairly well set-up by Giles and Willows interaction with the police at the beginning of the episode. The police are being influenced by the hellmouth, they are becoming abusive and vindictive, looking for reasons to inflict justice where and when they see fit. Corruption of power at it's vilest. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-30 11:10:13-04:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com... > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > give them the right to attack him. Maybe not, but being fairly assured that three grown men were out there wacking the snot out of Faith was reason to attack him. Police don't have the right to imprison innocent citizens for any reason or for any length of time. They didn't charge Faith, they didn't arrest her, and they didn't read her rights. This was clearly a case of cops out of control with power, meteing out justice as they saw fit. Faith said "I'm not going back to jail" and their response, quite clearly, was "Who said anything about jail?" They weren't there to arrest her they were there to inflict their own brand of justice, getting their jollies by ganging up on a girl. In other words bad cops, and in this world there really is nothing more evil or more deserving of a good ass kicking. The scene was fairly well set-up by Giles and Willows interaction with the police at the beginning of the episode. The police are being influenced by the hellmouth, they are becoming abusive and vindictive, looking for reasons to inflict justice where and when they see fit. Corruption of power at it's vilest. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-30 11:54:18-04:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <3EAFC320.212D6F6D@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k wrote: > > > > On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:25:15 -0700, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > > > >something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > >the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > >one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > >give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > >never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > > Actually the cop inside was performing an illegal act. They were right > > he can't stop them from going outside. If they want to wail on Faith > > wait untill she is in a jail cell, where they can barr other people > > from entering. > > Since when can't the police prevent a crowd from interfering in the > apprehension of a criminal? They never said they were going to interfere with the aprehension of a criminal. Faith had been aprehended. If the cops were doing their job she would have been hustled into the back of a patrol car in the time it took the guy on the door to say that he wasn't letting them out. And since when can a cop start firing a shotgun in a club when a girl says she's going to make a phone call? -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-04-30 11:54:18-04:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <3EAFC320.212D6F6D@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k wrote: > > > > On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:25:15 -0700, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > > > >something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > >the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > >one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > >give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > >never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > > Actually the cop inside was performing an illegal act. They were right > > he can't stop them from going outside. If they want to wail on Faith > > wait untill she is in a jail cell, where they can barr other people > > from entering. > > Since when can't the police prevent a crowd from interfering in the > apprehension of a criminal? They never said they were going to interfere with the aprehension of a criminal. Faith had been aprehended. If the cops were doing their job she would have been hustled into the back of a patrol car in the time it took the guy on the door to say that he wasn't letting them out. And since when can a cop start firing a shotgun in a club when a girl says she's going to make a phone call? -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-04-30 11:56:25-04:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <BTR1702-53BBCA.06394430042003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > In article <3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> > wrote: > > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > That cop was clearly out of control. Firing a shotgun into the ceiling > of a night club, causing the light fixture to come crashing down into > the crowd... holding the entire club under house arrest without probable > cause... verbally threatening to shoot them all... And the cop on the door, and one of the ones with Faith were beating on a guy who's crime seemed to be that he was slightly deranged a little earlier in the episode. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-04-30 11:56:25-04:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <BTR1702-53BBCA.06394430042003@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > In article <3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> > wrote: > > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > That cop was clearly out of control. Firing a shotgun into the ceiling > of a night club, causing the light fixture to come crashing down into > the crowd... holding the entire club under house arrest without probable > cause... verbally threatening to shoot them all... And the cop on the door, and one of the ones with Faith were beating on a guy who's crime seemed to be that he was slightly deranged a little earlier in the episode. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-04-30 12:40:58-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


DarkMagic wrote: > > "Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message > news:3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com... > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > give them the right to attack him. > > Maybe not, but being fairly assured that three grown men were out there > wacking the snot out of Faith was reason to attack him. The door closed before they started whacking on Faith. In fact, the only whacking that was done before the door closed was by Faith. > Police don't have > the right to imprison innocent citizens for any reason or for any length of > time. They can prevent a mob from interfering with and arrest. > They didn't charge Faith, they didn't arrest her, and they didn't > read her rights. They don't need to charge her, she's a convicted felon and escaped prisoner. Miranda rights don't apply. > This was clearly a case of cops out of control with power, > meteing out justice as they saw fit. Clear to who? Only Faith as far as I could tell. Faith was justified in what she did, but that doesn't explain the willingness of the SITs to interfere with an arrest, or why Buffy didn't even inquire about all of the police lying around. > Faith said "I'm not going back to > jail" and their response, quite clearly, was "Who said anything about jail?" > They weren't there to arrest her they were there to inflict their own brand > of justice, getting their jollies by ganging up on a girl. In other words > bad cops, and in this world there really is nothing more evil or more > deserving of a good ass kicking. > > The scene was fairly well set-up by Giles and Willows interaction with the > police at the beginning of the episode. The police are being influenced by > the hellmouth, they are becoming abusive and vindictive, looking for reasons > to inflict justice where and when they see fit. Corruption of power at it's > vilest. Set up for the viewers, but not for the characters who should react based on the information available within the story.

2003-04-30 12:40:58-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


DarkMagic wrote: > > "Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message > news:3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com... > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > give them the right to attack him. > > Maybe not, but being fairly assured that three grown men were out there > wacking the snot out of Faith was reason to attack him. The door closed before they started whacking on Faith. In fact, the only whacking that was done before the door closed was by Faith. > Police don't have > the right to imprison innocent citizens for any reason or for any length of > time. They can prevent a mob from interfering with and arrest. > They didn't charge Faith, they didn't arrest her, and they didn't > read her rights. They don't need to charge her, she's a convicted felon and escaped prisoner. Miranda rights don't apply. > This was clearly a case of cops out of control with power, > meteing out justice as they saw fit. Clear to who? Only Faith as far as I could tell. Faith was justified in what she did, but that doesn't explain the willingness of the SITs to interfere with an arrest, or why Buffy didn't even inquire about all of the police lying around. > Faith said "I'm not going back to > jail" and their response, quite clearly, was "Who said anything about jail?" > They weren't there to arrest her they were there to inflict their own brand > of justice, getting their jollies by ganging up on a girl. In other words > bad cops, and in this world there really is nothing more evil or more > deserving of a good ass kicking. > > The scene was fairly well set-up by Giles and Willows interaction with the > police at the beginning of the episode. The police are being influenced by > the hellmouth, they are becoming abusive and vindictive, looking for reasons > to inflict justice where and when they see fit. Corruption of power at it's > vilest. Set up for the viewers, but not for the characters who should react based on the information available within the story.

2003-04-30 13:50:01-07:00 - Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (himiko@animail.net)


Spoilers for Empty Places Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com> wrote in message news:<CIQra.675287$3D1.374506@sccrnsc01>... > > There were a couple of comments about cops "going hellmouth." I took > that to mean that people in general are acting up. They've cancelled > school, people are leaving town, and society in general is falling apart. Exactly. And this is also why the Scoobs and Dawn behaved so bizarrely and threw Buffy out. I'm sick of people saying it was uncharacteristic and illogical, and therefore bad writing. It was uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact that everyone was going hellmouth. himiko

2003-04-30 13:50:01-07:00 - Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (himiko@animail.net)


Spoilers for Empty Places Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com> wrote in message news:<CIQra.675287$3D1.374506@sccrnsc01>... > > There were a couple of comments about cops "going hellmouth." I took > that to mean that people in general are acting up. They've cancelled > school, people are leaving town, and society in general is falling apart. Exactly. And this is also why the Scoobs and Dawn behaved so bizarrely and threw Buffy out. I'm sick of people saying it was uncharacteristic and illogical, and therefore bad writing. It was uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact that everyone was going hellmouth. himiko

2003-04-30 14:03:14+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com>)


Carmikl wrote: > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole > scene was very poorly done. There were a couple of comments about cops "going hellmouth." I took that to mean that people in general are acting up. They've cancelled school, people are leaving town, and society in general is falling apart. Janine

2003-04-30 14:03:14+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com>)


Carmikl wrote: > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole > scene was very poorly done. There were a couple of comments about cops "going hellmouth." I took that to mean that people in general are acting up. They've cancelled school, people are leaving town, and society in general is falling apart. Janine

2003-04-30 15:40:04-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Don Sample wrote: > > > You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions > say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and > Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right > from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their > minds. > You couldn't see it at all in the episode because it wasn't there. Not everything that's in the script ends up on the screen. I have the script, so I was looking for the tape. Surprised that I didn't see it.

2003-04-30 15:40:04-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Don Sample wrote: > > > You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions > say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and > Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right > from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their > minds. > You couldn't see it at all in the episode because it wasn't there. Not everything that's in the script ends up on the screen. I have the script, so I was looking for the tape. Surprised that I didn't see it.

2003-04-30 16:23:41+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us wrote in article <3EAF8255.192A5438@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>... > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > > Carmikl wrote: > > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole > > scene was very poorly done. > > Why didn't Faith tell Buffy that the cops had gone nuts? > > > As far as Buffy was concerned, Faith had threatened her authority and Buffy would not hear anything that Faith, or Giles, or what anyone else, for that matter, had to say. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-04-30 16:23:41+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us wrote in article <3EAF8255.192A5438@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>... > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > > Carmikl wrote: > > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole > > scene was very poorly done. > > Why didn't Faith tell Buffy that the cops had gone nuts? > > > As far as Buffy was concerned, Faith had threatened her authority and Buffy would not hear anything that Faith, or Giles, or what anyone else, for that matter, had to say. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-04-30 16:30:33+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Carmikl@rcn.com wrote in article <3EAFC320.212D6F6D@rcn.com>... > T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k wrote: > > > > On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:25:15 -0700, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > > > >something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > >the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > >one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > >give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > >never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > > Actually the cop inside was performing an illegal act. They were right > > he can't stop them from going outside. If they want to wail on Faith > > wait untill she is in a jail cell, where they can barr other people > > from entering. > > Since when can't the police prevent a crowd from interfering in the > apprehension of a criminal? Since we, the audience, know that the police are intent on beating Faith senseless, or worse, the girls have our sympathy and blessings when they enter the fray. By the way, I think that Magnum Force plot twist was misplaced in what was otherwise an excellent episode. Portraying law enforcement personnel as blood thirsty hooligans has worn perilously thin with me. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-04-30 16:30:33+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Carmikl@rcn.com wrote in article <3EAFC320.212D6F6D@rcn.com>... > T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k wrote: > > > > On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:25:15 -0700, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > > > >something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > >the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > >one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > >give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > >never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > > Actually the cop inside was performing an illegal act. They were right > > he can't stop them from going outside. If they want to wail on Faith > > wait untill she is in a jail cell, where they can barr other people > > from entering. > > Since when can't the police prevent a crowd from interfering in the > apprehension of a criminal? Since we, the audience, know that the police are intent on beating Faith senseless, or worse, the girls have our sympathy and blessings when they enter the fray. By the way, I think that Magnum Force plot twist was misplaced in what was otherwise an excellent episode. Portraying law enforcement personnel as blood thirsty hooligans has worn perilously thin with me. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-04-30 16:58:47-05:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <y06dnSKjsLz8ejKjXTWcrg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message > news:3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com... > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, > > didn't > > give them the right to attack him. > > Maybe not, but being fairly assured that three grown men were out there > wacking the snot out of Faith was reason to attack him. Police don't > have the right to imprison innocent citizens for any reason or for any length > of time. They didn't charge Faith, they didn't arrest her, and they didn't > read her rights. They did arrest her. By detaining her and dragging her out of the bar, she was effectively under arrest and in their custody. And why would her Miranda warnings even be relevant? I arrest people all the time without reading them their rights. Nothing wrong with that. The only time you need to read a suspect/prisoner the Miranda warning is when you want to interrogate them and use their responses as evidence against them. If I have a videotape of a guy committing a murder, I don't *need* his confession so I can just arrest him and throw him into lockup. No Miranda warnings necessary.

2003-04-30 16:58:47-05:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <y06dnSKjsLz8ejKjXTWcrg@comcast.com>, "DarkMagic" <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message > news:3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com... > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, > > didn't > > give them the right to attack him. > > Maybe not, but being fairly assured that three grown men were out there > wacking the snot out of Faith was reason to attack him. Police don't > have the right to imprison innocent citizens for any reason or for any length > of time. They didn't charge Faith, they didn't arrest her, and they didn't > read her rights. They did arrest her. By detaining her and dragging her out of the bar, she was effectively under arrest and in their custody. And why would her Miranda warnings even be relevant? I arrest people all the time without reading them their rights. Nothing wrong with that. The only time you need to read a suspect/prisoner the Miranda warning is when you want to interrogate them and use their responses as evidence against them. If I have a videotape of a guy committing a murder, I don't *need* his confession so I can just arrest him and throw him into lockup. No Miranda warnings necessary.

2003-04-30 17:01:12-05:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <300420031154185958%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <3EAFC320.212D6F6D@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > > T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:25:15 -0700, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > > > > > >something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't > > > >know the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because > > > >the one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, > > > >didn't give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > > >never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > > > > Actually the cop inside was performing an illegal act. They were > > > right he can't stop them from going outside. If they want to wail on Faith > > > wait untill she is in a jail cell, where they can barr other people > > > from entering. > > > > Since when can't the police prevent a crowd from interfering in the > > apprehension of a criminal? > > They never said they were going to interfere with the aprehension of a > criminal. Faith had been aprehended. If the cops were doing their job > she would have been hustled into the back of a patrol car in the time > it took the guy on the door to say that he wasn't letting them out. > > And since when can a cop start firing a shotgun in a club when a girl > says she's going to make a phone call? Since never. Under California law, just doing that could be considered felony assault. Aggravated because it was committed with a firearm. And if the ceiling lamp fell on anyone and hurt them, then there's an aggravated battery also.

2003-04-30 17:01:12-05:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>)


In article <300420031154185958%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <3EAFC320.212D6F6D@rcn.com>, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > > T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:25:15 -0700, Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote: > > > > > > >something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't > > > >know the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because > > > >the one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, > > > >didn't give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > > >never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > > > > Actually the cop inside was performing an illegal act. They were > > > right he can't stop them from going outside. If they want to wail on Faith > > > wait untill she is in a jail cell, where they can barr other people > > > from entering. > > > > Since when can't the police prevent a crowd from interfering in the > > apprehension of a criminal? > > They never said they were going to interfere with the aprehension of a > criminal. Faith had been aprehended. If the cops were doing their job > she would have been hustled into the back of a patrol car in the time > it took the guy on the door to say that he wasn't letting them out. > > And since when can a cop start firing a shotgun in a club when a girl > says she's going to make a phone call? Since never. Under California law, just doing that could be considered felony assault. Aggravated because it was committed with a firearm. And if the ceiling lamp fell on anyone and hurt them, then there's an aggravated battery also.

2003-04-30 17:45:45-04:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:3EB026CA.9971184E@rcn.com... > DarkMagic wrote: > > > > "Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message > > news:3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com... > > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > > give them the right to attack him. > > > > Maybe not, but being fairly assured that three grown men were out there > > wacking the snot out of Faith was reason to attack him. > > The door closed before they started whacking on Faith. In fact, the only > whacking that was done before the door closed was by Faith. > Safe to assume, I believe, based on the policeman's attitude, that things weren't going to go well, or legal, for Faith once she was taken outside. Also, safe to say that Faith's ability to fight the apocalypse is considerably stronger than the evil policemen having fun with justice abilities are. Therefore, the S.i.T's made an executive decision that Faith staying out of jail was more important than whatever rights the police felt they had to detain her. > > Police don't have > > the right to imprison innocent citizens for any reason or for any length of > > time. > > They can prevent a mob from interfering with and arrest. > But, we've already established that it *wasn't* an arrest. Plus, a bunch of teenage girls aren't what I would consider a mob. And, even if the police's intent was to arrest Faith, the S.i.T's are justified in preventing that incident based on the information they have regarding Faith's abilities and what's going on in Sunnydale. Strange times call for strange action. > > They didn't charge Faith, they didn't arrest her, and they didn't > > read her rights. > > They don't need to charge her, she's a convicted felon and escaped > prisoner. Miranda rights don't apply. > Still, a moot point. > > This was clearly a case of cops out of control with power, > > meteing out justice as they saw fit. > > Clear to who? Well, clear to me, and obviously the S.i.T.'s who thought officer holding door was smirking just a little too much. > > Set up for the viewers, but not for the characters who should react > based on the information available within the story. The characters are reacting based on the fact that they know Faith is more good to the world *outside* of prison right now. The police would never believe it, force was required. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-30 17:45:45-04:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:3EB026CA.9971184E@rcn.com... > DarkMagic wrote: > > > > "Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message > > news:3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com... > > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > > give them the right to attack him. > > > > Maybe not, but being fairly assured that three grown men were out there > > wacking the snot out of Faith was reason to attack him. > > The door closed before they started whacking on Faith. In fact, the only > whacking that was done before the door closed was by Faith. > Safe to assume, I believe, based on the policeman's attitude, that things weren't going to go well, or legal, for Faith once she was taken outside. Also, safe to say that Faith's ability to fight the apocalypse is considerably stronger than the evil policemen having fun with justice abilities are. Therefore, the S.i.T's made an executive decision that Faith staying out of jail was more important than whatever rights the police felt they had to detain her. > > Police don't have > > the right to imprison innocent citizens for any reason or for any length of > > time. > > They can prevent a mob from interfering with and arrest. > But, we've already established that it *wasn't* an arrest. Plus, a bunch of teenage girls aren't what I would consider a mob. And, even if the police's intent was to arrest Faith, the S.i.T's are justified in preventing that incident based on the information they have regarding Faith's abilities and what's going on in Sunnydale. Strange times call for strange action. > > They didn't charge Faith, they didn't arrest her, and they didn't > > read her rights. > > They don't need to charge her, she's a convicted felon and escaped > prisoner. Miranda rights don't apply. > Still, a moot point. > > This was clearly a case of cops out of control with power, > > meteing out justice as they saw fit. > > Clear to who? Well, clear to me, and obviously the S.i.T.'s who thought officer holding door was smirking just a little too much. > > Set up for the viewers, but not for the characters who should react > based on the information available within the story. The characters are reacting based on the fact that they know Faith is more good to the world *outside* of prison right now. The police would never believe it, force was required. -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-30 18:16:05-04:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <nJWdnWu_SrGG2S2jXTWcog@comcast.com>, DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message > news:3EB026CA.9971184E@rcn.com... > > DarkMagic wrote: > > > > > > "Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message > > > news:3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com... > > > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy > > > > didn't know the cops were out of control and neither did the > > > > SITs. Just because the one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let > > > > the SITs out to interfere, didn't give them the right to attack > > > > him. They didn't attack him until he started firing his shotgun in a club full of kids, endangering them all. That lamp didn't come crashing down anywhere near the girls who were talking to him at the door. And why did he fire again? Because Dawn said she was going to go to the phone. > > > Maybe not, but being fairly assured that three grown men were out > > > there wacking the snot out of Faith was reason to attack him. > > > > The door closed before they started whacking on Faith. In fact, the > > only whacking that was done before the door closed was by Faith. > > > Safe to assume, I believe, based on the policeman's attitude, that > things weren't going to go well, or legal, for Faith once she was > taken outside. You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their minds. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-04-30 18:16:05-04:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <nJWdnWu_SrGG2S2jXTWcog@comcast.com>, DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net> wrote: > "Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message > news:3EB026CA.9971184E@rcn.com... > > DarkMagic wrote: > > > > > > "Carmikl" <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message > > > news:3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com... > > > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy > > > > didn't know the cops were out of control and neither did the > > > > SITs. Just because the one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let > > > > the SITs out to interfere, didn't give them the right to attack > > > > him. They didn't attack him until he started firing his shotgun in a club full of kids, endangering them all. That lamp didn't come crashing down anywhere near the girls who were talking to him at the door. And why did he fire again? Because Dawn said she was going to go to the phone. > > > Maybe not, but being fairly assured that three grown men were out > > > there wacking the snot out of Faith was reason to attack him. > > > > The door closed before they started whacking on Faith. In fact, the > > only whacking that was done before the door closed was by Faith. > > > Safe to assume, I believe, based on the policeman's attitude, that > things weren't going to go well, or legal, for Faith once she was > taken outside. You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their minds. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-04-30 21:28:10+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (mitchell aster <master@iNiOiSiPiA.nMu.invalid>)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us wrote > in article <3EAF8255.192A5438@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>... >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> >> Carmikl wrote: >> >> > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know >> > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the >> > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't >> > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and >> > never pointed the gun at the SITs. >> > >> > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been >> > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to >> > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole >> > scene was very poorly done. >> >> Why didn't Faith tell Buffy that the cops had gone nuts? > As far as Buffy was concerned, Faith had threatened her authority and > Buffy would not hear anything that Faith, or Giles, or what anyone else, > for that matter, had to say. that's not the point. faith didn't even give her anything not to listen to. buffy asked her what was going on, and faith's answer was something like "i needed to get my jollies by beating some cops". that's not a good reason, while the truth - "they attacked me" - obviously is. but faith didn't even bring it up. i was sitting there going "tell her they attacked you! christ!" it's just casually bad writing - trump up tension at any cost. the only other possible exlpanation - that faith was being intentionally evasive and contrary to cheese off buffy for fun - doesn't really make sense when you consider that this is a "reformed faith" storyline. look at the (similarly awful) end of the episode - she was the only person giving buffy any love at all. she's supposedly taking this stuff seriously. this season has become a phantom menace experience. i'm just watching out of intellectual curiousity now, it's not actually enjoyable. m.

2003-04-30 21:28:10+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (mitchell aster <master@iNiOiSiPiA.nMu.invalid>)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us wrote > in article <3EAF8255.192A5438@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>... >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> 1 >> >> Carmikl wrote: >> >> > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know >> > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the >> > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't >> > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and >> > never pointed the gun at the SITs. >> > >> > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been >> > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to >> > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. The whole >> > scene was very poorly done. >> >> Why didn't Faith tell Buffy that the cops had gone nuts? > As far as Buffy was concerned, Faith had threatened her authority and > Buffy would not hear anything that Faith, or Giles, or what anyone else, > for that matter, had to say. that's not the point. faith didn't even give her anything not to listen to. buffy asked her what was going on, and faith's answer was something like "i needed to get my jollies by beating some cops". that's not a good reason, while the truth - "they attacked me" - obviously is. but faith didn't even bring it up. i was sitting there going "tell her they attacked you! christ!" it's just casually bad writing - trump up tension at any cost. the only other possible exlpanation - that faith was being intentionally evasive and contrary to cheese off buffy for fun - doesn't really make sense when you consider that this is a "reformed faith" storyline. look at the (similarly awful) end of the episode - she was the only person giving buffy any love at all. she's supposedly taking this stuff seriously. this season has become a phantom menace experience. i'm just watching out of intellectual curiousity now, it's not actually enjoyable. m.

2003-04-30 21:33:28-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (DanielArmato@aol.com)


Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>... > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. It IS Faith! > The whole > scene was very poorly done. Right now, I think that falls below the radar. More important things are going on. Side note: The cops were clearly under FE control due to their superhuman strength and recuperative abilities (I hope). That, or the writers really have no idea what they are doing.

2003-04-30 21:33:28-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (DanielArmato@aol.com)


Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>... > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. It IS Faith! > The whole > scene was very poorly done. Right now, I think that falls below the radar. More important things are going on. Side note: The cops were clearly under FE control due to their superhuman strength and recuperative abilities (I hope). That, or the writers really have no idea what they are doing.

2003-04-30 22:10:15-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Growltiger wrote: > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Carmikl@rcn.com wrote in article > <3EB050C4.2CBBA36F@rcn.com>... > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions > > > say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and > > > Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right > > > from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their > > > minds. > > > > > You couldn't see it at all in the episode because it wasn't there. Not > > everything that's in the script ends up on the screen. > > > > I have the script, so I was looking for the tape. Surprised that I > > didn't see it. > > > > I have not read the script, but tape on the badges is news to me. Well > not even news since you are right and there is not tape to be seen on > any of their badges. Some police where name tags, but why tape them > when you can just remove them? > -- It was something the police did during the Vietnam antiwar protests so their badge numbers couldn't be read. Removing the badge is too obvious at a distance. Tape was harder for TV cameras to pick up. It doesn't make much sense in this context so I was surprised to see it in the script.

2003-04-30 22:10:15-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Growltiger wrote: > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Carmikl@rcn.com wrote in article > <3EB050C4.2CBBA36F@rcn.com>... > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions > > > say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and > > > Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right > > > from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their > > > minds. > > > > > You couldn't see it at all in the episode because it wasn't there. Not > > everything that's in the script ends up on the screen. > > > > I have the script, so I was looking for the tape. Surprised that I > > didn't see it. > > > > I have not read the script, but tape on the badges is news to me. Well > not even news since you are right and there is not tape to be seen on > any of their badges. Some police where name tags, but why tape them > when you can just remove them? > -- It was something the police did during the Vietnam antiwar protests so their badge numbers couldn't be read. Removing the badge is too obvious at a distance. Tape was harder for TV cameras to pick up. It doesn't make much sense in this context so I was surprised to see it in the script.

2003-04-30 23:07:56+00:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (stardreamer@mindspring.com)


In article <c7902983.0304301250.61d448eb@posting.google.com>, himiko@animail.net says... > >Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com> wrote in message news:<CIQra.675287$ >3D1.374506@sccrnsc01>... >> >> There were a couple of comments about cops "going hellmouth." I took >> that to mean that people in general are acting up. They've cancelled >> school, people are leaving town, and society in general is falling apart. > >Exactly. And this is also why the Scoobs and Dawn behaved so >bizarrely and threw Buffy out. I'm sick of people saying it was >uncharacteristic and illogical, and therefore bad writing. It was >uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact >that everyone was going hellmouth. Excellent point! We've been seeing what the hellmouth emanations do to everyone *else* in town; why do we assume that Buffy and her friends are exempt from this effect? That might even explain Giles going behind Buffy's back to set up Spike's death. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

2003-04-30 23:07:56+00:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (stardreamer@mindspring.com)


In article <c7902983.0304301250.61d448eb@posting.google.com>, himiko@animail.net says... > >Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com> wrote in message news:<CIQra.675287$ >3D1.374506@sccrnsc01>... >> >> There were a couple of comments about cops "going hellmouth." I took >> that to mean that people in general are acting up. They've cancelled >> school, people are leaving town, and society in general is falling apart. > >Exactly. And this is also why the Scoobs and Dawn behaved so >bizarrely and threw Buffy out. I'm sick of people saying it was >uncharacteristic and illogical, and therefore bad writing. It was >uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact >that everyone was going hellmouth. Excellent point! We've been seeing what the hellmouth emanations do to everyone *else* in town; why do we assume that Buffy and her friends are exempt from this effect? That might even explain Giles going behind Buffy's back to set up Spike's death. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

2003-04-30 23:17:47-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>)


Carmikl wrote: > Growltiger wrote: > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Carmikl@rcn.com wrote in article > > <3EB050C4.2CBBA36F@rcn.com>... > > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions > > > > say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and > > > > Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right > > > > from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their > > > > minds. > > > > > > > You couldn't see it at all in the episode because it wasn't there. Not > > > everything that's in the script ends up on the screen. > > > > > > I have the script, so I was looking for the tape. Surprised that I > > > didn't see it. > > > > > > > I have not read the script, but tape on the badges is news to me. Well > > not even news since you are right and there is not tape to be seen on > > any of their badges. Some police where name tags, but why tape them > > when you can just remove them? > > -- > It was something the police did during the Vietnam antiwar protests so > their badge numbers couldn't be read. Removing the badge is too obvious > at a distance. Tape was harder for TV cameras to pick up. It doesn't > make much sense in this context so I was surprised to see it in the > script. Were the Vietnam era police afraid the protesters would track them down via their badge numbers and attack them?

2003-04-30 23:17:47-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>)


Carmikl wrote: > Growltiger wrote: > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Carmikl@rcn.com wrote in article > > <3EB050C4.2CBBA36F@rcn.com>... > > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions > > > > say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and > > > > Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right > > > > from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their > > > > minds. > > > > > > > You couldn't see it at all in the episode because it wasn't there. Not > > > everything that's in the script ends up on the screen. > > > > > > I have the script, so I was looking for the tape. Surprised that I > > > didn't see it. > > > > > > > I have not read the script, but tape on the badges is news to me. Well > > not even news since you are right and there is not tape to be seen on > > any of their badges. Some police where name tags, but why tape them > > when you can just remove them? > > -- > It was something the police did during the Vietnam antiwar protests so > their badge numbers couldn't be read. Removing the badge is too obvious > at a distance. Tape was harder for TV cameras to pick up. It doesn't > make much sense in this context so I was surprised to see it in the > script. Were the Vietnam era police afraid the protesters would track them down via their badge numbers and attack them?

2003-05-01 00:02:39-05:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <eae61bb0.0304302033.11f4ef09@posting.google.com>, DanielArmato@aol.com (Dan Armato) wrote: > Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>... > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. > > It IS Faith! > > > The whole > > scene was very poorly done. > > Right now, I think that falls below the radar. More important things > are going on. > > Side note: The cops were clearly under FE control due to their > superhuman strength and recuperative abilities (I hope). That, or the > writers really have no idea what they are doing. The cops didn't seem that strong since the SITs were kicking their collective asses, it was Faith that was greatly weakened in the fight.

2003-05-01 00:02:39-05:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <eae61bb0.0304302033.11f4ef09@posting.google.com>, DanielArmato@aol.com (Dan Armato) wrote: > Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>... > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. > > It IS Faith! > > > The whole > > scene was very poorly done. > > Right now, I think that falls below the radar. More important things > are going on. > > Side note: The cops were clearly under FE control due to their > superhuman strength and recuperative abilities (I hope). That, or the > writers really have no idea what they are doing. The cops didn't seem that strong since the SITs were kicking their collective asses, it was Faith that was greatly weakened in the fight.

2003-05-01 02:55:56+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Carmikl@rcn.com wrote in article <3EB050C4.2CBBA36F@rcn.com>... > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > > You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions > > say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and > > Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right > > from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their > > minds. > > > You couldn't see it at all in the episode because it wasn't there. Not > everything that's in the script ends up on the screen. > > I have the script, so I was looking for the tape. Surprised that I > didn't see it. > I have not read the script, but tape on the badges is news to me. Well not even news since you are right and there is not tape to be seen on any of their badges. Some police where name tags, but why tape them when you can just remove them? -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-01 02:55:56+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Carmikl@rcn.com wrote in article <3EB050C4.2CBBA36F@rcn.com>... > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > > You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions > > say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and > > Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right > > from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their > > minds. > > > You couldn't see it at all in the episode because it wasn't there. Not > everything that's in the script ends up on the screen. > > I have the script, so I was looking for the tape. Surprised that I > didn't see it. > I have not read the script, but tape on the badges is news to me. Well not even news since you are right and there is not tape to be seen on any of their badges. Some police where name tags, but why tape them when you can just remove them? -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-01 05:49:04-07:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (kbrown@his.com)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030501022130.24980.00000358@mb-m02.aol.com>... > >Subject: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something > >(Empty Places Spoilers) > >From: himiko@animail.net (himiko) > >Date: 4/30/2003 1:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <c7902983.0304301250.61d448eb@posting.google.com> > > > >Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then why was Faith so reasonable? > Because she is the one true slayer? I like it!

2003-05-01 05:49:04-07:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (kbrown@his.com)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030501022130.24980.00000358@mb-m02.aol.com>... > >Subject: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something > >(Empty Places Spoilers) > >From: himiko@animail.net (himiko) > >Date: 4/30/2003 1:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <c7902983.0304301250.61d448eb@posting.google.com> > > > >Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then why was Faith so reasonable? > Because she is the one true slayer? I like it!

2003-05-01 06:21:30+00:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something >(Empty Places Spoilers) >From: himiko@animail.net (himiko) >Date: 4/30/2003 1:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <c7902983.0304301250.61d448eb@posting.google.com> > >Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was >uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact >that everyone was going hellmouth. > Then why was Faith so reasonable? > > > > > > Rose Buffy, Spike and Angel: Existentialist heroes. Now I get it. Shutting up now. Save me Jasmine!

2003-05-01 06:21:30+00:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something >(Empty Places Spoilers) >From: himiko@animail.net (himiko) >Date: 4/30/2003 1:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <c7902983.0304301250.61d448eb@posting.google.com> > >Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was >uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact >that everyone was going hellmouth. > Then why was Faith so reasonable? > > > > > > Rose Buffy, Spike and Angel: Existentialist heroes. Now I get it. Shutting up now. Save me Jasmine!

2003-05-01 08:33:23-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Dan Armato wrote: > > Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>... > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. > > It IS Faith! > > > The whole > > scene was very poorly done. > > Right now, I think that falls below the radar. More important things > are going on. > Why would it fall below the radar? All Buffy saw was unconscious cops. She didn't know they were bad, and she doesn't really need another enemy now, like the Sunnydale police.

2003-05-01 08:33:23-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Dan Armato wrote: > > Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>... > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. > > It IS Faith! > > > The whole > > scene was very poorly done. > > Right now, I think that falls below the radar. More important things > are going on. > Why would it fall below the radar? All Buffy saw was unconscious cops. She didn't know they were bad, and she doesn't really need another enemy now, like the Sunnydale police.

2003-05-01 09:15:00+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (3D Master <3d.master@chello.nl>)


Darwin Fish wrote: > In article <eae61bb0.0304302033.11f4ef09@posting.google.com>, > DanielArmato@aol.com (Dan Armato) wrote: > > >>Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>... >> >>>something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know >>>the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the >>>one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't >>>give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and >>>never pointed the gun at the SITs. >>> >>>Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been >>>expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to >>>resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. >> >>It IS Faith! >> >> >>>The whole >>>scene was very poorly done. >> >>Right now, I think that falls below the radar. More important things >>are going on. >> >>Side note: The cops were clearly under FE control due to their >>superhuman strength and recuperative abilities (I hope). That, or the >>writers really have no idea what they are doing. > > > The cops didn't seem that strong since the SITs were kicking their > collective asses, it was Faith that was greatly weakened in the fight. More like she doesn't want to seriously hurt humans again so she held back I guess. 3D Master -- ~~~~~ "I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!" - The Kurgan, Highlander "Give me some sugar, baby!" - Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness ~~~~~ Author of several stories, which can be found here: http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/

2003-05-01 09:15:00+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (3D Master <3d.master@chello.nl>)


Darwin Fish wrote: > In article <eae61bb0.0304302033.11f4ef09@posting.google.com>, > DanielArmato@aol.com (Dan Armato) wrote: > > >>Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>... >> >>>something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know >>>the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the >>>one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't >>>give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and >>>never pointed the gun at the SITs. >>> >>>Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been >>>expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to >>>resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. >> >>It IS Faith! >> >> >>>The whole >>>scene was very poorly done. >> >>Right now, I think that falls below the radar. More important things >>are going on. >> >>Side note: The cops were clearly under FE control due to their >>superhuman strength and recuperative abilities (I hope). That, or the >>writers really have no idea what they are doing. > > > The cops didn't seem that strong since the SITs were kicking their > collective asses, it was Faith that was greatly weakened in the fight. More like she doesn't want to seriously hurt humans again so she held back I guess. 3D Master -- ~~~~~ "I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!" - The Kurgan, Highlander "Give me some sugar, baby!" - Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness ~~~~~ Author of several stories, which can be found here: http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/

2003-05-01 13:41:04-07:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030501022130.24980.00000358@mb-m02.aol.com>... > >Subject: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something > >(Empty Places Spoilers) > >From: himiko@animail.net (himiko) > >Date: 4/30/2003 1:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <c7902983.0304301250.61d448eb@posting.google.com> > > > >Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was > >uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact > >that everyone was going hellmouth. > > > > Then why was Faith so reasonable? Because she doesn't have the emotional investment the others do. And she's probably become rather more adept than we've given her credit for at handling tough psychological situations from her time in prison. Or maybe she hasn't been around long enough for it to really affect her. Personally, I'd see the Hellmouth as amplifying the negative feelings the characters have been harboring for a long time. The sense of helplessness, of futility, of fear that's been building for the past few months. Everyone has reason to be frayed, emotionally speaking, and this frustration is getting redirected at those around them, with the Hellmouth helpfully adding to and amplifying the affects (sort of how it turns those who feel socially isolated invisible, f'r instance). Faith, as a relative newcomer to the current situation, hasn't been driven to the depths that the others have been, and so is comparatively more stable. Admittedly, it's fanwank, but I think it makes sense <shrugs>

2003-05-01 13:41:04-07:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030501022130.24980.00000358@mb-m02.aol.com>... > >Subject: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something > >(Empty Places Spoilers) > >From: himiko@animail.net (himiko) > >Date: 4/30/2003 1:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <c7902983.0304301250.61d448eb@posting.google.com> > > > >Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was > >uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact > >that everyone was going hellmouth. > > > > Then why was Faith so reasonable? Because she doesn't have the emotional investment the others do. And she's probably become rather more adept than we've given her credit for at handling tough psychological situations from her time in prison. Or maybe she hasn't been around long enough for it to really affect her. Personally, I'd see the Hellmouth as amplifying the negative feelings the characters have been harboring for a long time. The sense of helplessness, of futility, of fear that's been building for the past few months. Everyone has reason to be frayed, emotionally speaking, and this frustration is getting redirected at those around them, with the Hellmouth helpfully adding to and amplifying the affects (sort of how it turns those who feel socially isolated invisible, f'r instance). Faith, as a relative newcomer to the current situation, hasn't been driven to the depths that the others have been, and so is comparatively more stable. Admittedly, it's fanwank, but I think it makes sense <shrugs>

2003-05-01 16:56:01-07:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth, not the way to end it all (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


himiko wrote: > > Spoilers for Empty Places > > Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com> wrote in message news:<CIQra.675287$3D1.374506@sccrnsc01>... > > > > There were a couple of comments about cops "going hellmouth." I took > > that to mean that people in general are acting up. They've cancelled > > school, people are leaving town, and society in general is falling apart. > > Exactly. And this is also why the Scoobs and Dawn behaved so > bizarrely and threw Buffy out. I'm sick of people saying it was > uncharacteristic and illogical, and therefore bad writing. It was > uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact > that everyone was going hellmouth. > > himiko Then we should look for hellmouth behavior until it's finally shut down. That means regardless of what the characters do from now on, you can't take it seriously, because it just might be the hellmouth effect. Hard to sew up story lines when everyone's motivation is suspect.

2003-05-01 16:56:01-07:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth, not the way to end it all (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


himiko wrote: > > Spoilers for Empty Places > > Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com> wrote in message news:<CIQra.675287$3D1.374506@sccrnsc01>... > > > > There were a couple of comments about cops "going hellmouth." I took > > that to mean that people in general are acting up. They've cancelled > > school, people are leaving town, and society in general is falling apart. > > Exactly. And this is also why the Scoobs and Dawn behaved so > bizarrely and threw Buffy out. I'm sick of people saying it was > uncharacteristic and illogical, and therefore bad writing. It was > uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact > that everyone was going hellmouth. > > himiko Then we should look for hellmouth behavior until it's finally shut down. That means regardless of what the characters do from now on, you can't take it seriously, because it just might be the hellmouth effect. Hard to sew up story lines when everyone's motivation is suspect.

2003-05-01 22:56:14-04:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com>)


In article <20030501022130.24980.00000358@mb-m02.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > >Subject: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something > >(Empty Places Spoilers) > >From: himiko@animail.net (himiko) > >Date: 4/30/2003 1:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <c7902983.0304301250.61d448eb@posting.google.com> > > > >Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was > >uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact > >that everyone was going hellmouth. > > > > Then why was Faith so reasonable? Maybe Faith is still feeling pretty bad about herself? -- Yes, I'm now munging my email address, the domain is just creeknet.com Strip off the 'tg' or your email be _silently_ discarded.

2003-05-01 22:56:14-04:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com>)


In article <20030501022130.24980.00000358@mb-m02.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > >Subject: Going Hellmouth (was Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something > >(Empty Places Spoilers) > >From: himiko@animail.net (himiko) > >Date: 4/30/2003 1:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <c7902983.0304301250.61d448eb@posting.google.com> > > > >Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was > >uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact > >that everyone was going hellmouth. > > > > Then why was Faith so reasonable? Maybe Faith is still feeling pretty bad about herself? -- Yes, I'm now munging my email address, the domain is just creeknet.com Strip off the 'tg' or your email be _silently_ discarded.

2003-05-02 01:29:00+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us wrote in article <3EB0BC0A.F62D11D1@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>... > > > Carmikl wrote: > > > Growltiger wrote: > > > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Carmikl@rcn.com wrote in article > > > <3EB050C4.2CBBA36F@rcn.com>... > > > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions > > > > > say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and > > > > > Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right > > > > > from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their > > > > > minds. > > > > > > > > > You couldn't see it at all in the episode because it wasn't there. Not > > > > everything that's in the script ends up on the screen. > > > > > > > > I have the script, so I was looking for the tape. Surprised that I > > > > didn't see it. > > > > > > > > > > I have not read the script, but tape on the badges is news to me. Well > > > not even news since you are right and there is not tape to be seen on > > > any of their badges. Some police where name tags, but why tape them > > > when you can just remove them? > > > -- > > It was something the police did during the Vietnam antiwar protests so > > their badge numbers couldn't be read. Removing the badge is too obvious > > at a distance. Tape was harder for TV cameras to pick up. It doesn't > > make much sense in this context so I was surprised to see it in the > > script. > > Were the Vietnam era police afraid the protesters would track them down via > their badge numbers and attack them? > > > If you mean have them arrested, then yes. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-02 01:29:00+00:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us wrote in article <3EB0BC0A.F62D11D1@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>... > > > Carmikl wrote: > > > Growltiger wrote: > > > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Carmikl@rcn.com wrote in article > > > <3EB050C4.2CBBA36F@rcn.com>... > > > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't really see it well in the episode, but the script directions > > > > > say that the cops have all got their badge numbers taped over, and > > > > > Faith notices that before they start dragging her outside, so right > > > > > from the start she knows that they don't have arresting her on their > > > > > minds. > > > > > > > > > You couldn't see it at all in the episode because it wasn't there. Not > > > > everything that's in the script ends up on the screen. > > > > > > > > I have the script, so I was looking for the tape. Surprised that I > > > > didn't see it. > > > > > > > > > > I have not read the script, but tape on the badges is news to me. Well > > > not even news since you are right and there is not tape to be seen on > > > any of their badges. Some police where name tags, but why tape them > > > when you can just remove them? > > > -- > > It was something the police did during the Vietnam antiwar protests so > > their badge numbers couldn't be read. Removing the badge is too obvious > > at a distance. Tape was harder for TV cameras to pick up. It doesn't > > make much sense in this context so I was surprised to see it in the > > script. > > Were the Vietnam era police afraid the protesters would track them down via > their badge numbers and attack them? > > > If you mean have them arrested, then yes. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-02 16:21:18-07:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth, not the way to end it all (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Caleb <Caleb@notthere.com>)


Carmikl wrote: > > himiko wrote: > > > > Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com> wrote in message news:<CIQra.675287$3D1.374506@sccrnsc01>... > > > > > > There were a couple of comments about cops "going hellmouth." I took > > > that to mean that people in general are acting up. They've cancelled > > > school, people are leaving town, and society in general is falling apart. > > > > Exactly. And this is also why the Scoobs and Dawn behaved so > > bizarrely and threw Buffy out. I'm sick of people saying it was > > uncharacteristic and illogical, and therefore bad writing. It was > > uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact > > that everyone was going hellmouth. > > > > himiko > > Then we should look for hellmouth behavior until it's finally shut down. > That means regardless of what the characters do from now on, you can't > take it seriously, because it just might be the hellmouth effect. Hard > to sew up story lines when everyone's motivation is suspect. Whatever Spike or Buffy may do between now and the finale may just be the result of Going Hellmouth, and maybe the participants won't even remember when it's all over.

2003-05-02 16:21:18-07:00 - Re: Going Hellmouth, not the way to end it all (Empty Places Spoilers) - (Caleb <Caleb@notthere.com>)


Carmikl wrote: > > himiko wrote: > > > > Spoilers for Empty Places > > > > Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com> wrote in message news:<CIQra.675287$3D1.374506@sccrnsc01>... > > > > > > There were a couple of comments about cops "going hellmouth." I took > > > that to mean that people in general are acting up. They've cancelled > > > school, people are leaving town, and society in general is falling apart. > > > > Exactly. And this is also why the Scoobs and Dawn behaved so > > bizarrely and threw Buffy out. I'm sick of people saying it was > > uncharacteristic and illogical, and therefore bad writing. It was > > uncharacteristic and illogical but it was fully explained by the fact > > that everyone was going hellmouth. > > > > himiko > > Then we should look for hellmouth behavior until it's finally shut down. > That means regardless of what the characters do from now on, you can't > take it seriously, because it just might be the hellmouth effect. Hard > to sew up story lines when everyone's motivation is suspect. Whatever Spike or Buffy may do between now and the finale may just be the result of Going Hellmouth, and maybe the participants won't even remember when it's all over.

2003-05-02 20:45:22-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (DanielArmato@aol.com)


Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EB13E43.DA25DD04@rcn.com>... > Dan Armato wrote: > > > > Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>... > > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > > > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > > > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. > > > > It IS Faith! > > > > > The whole > > > scene was very poorly done. > > > > Right now, I think that falls below the radar. More important things > > are going on. > > > Why would it fall below the radar? All Buffy saw was unconscious cops. > She didn't know they were bad, and she doesn't really need another enemy > now, like the Sunnydale police. Caleb, UberVamps, First Evil...........right now, a few unconscious cops aren't a real priority

2003-05-02 20:45:22-07:00 - Re: Seems like Buffy should have said something (Empty Places Spoilers) - (DanielArmato@aol.com)


Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EB13E43.DA25DD04@rcn.com>... > Dan Armato wrote: > > > > Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3EAF5E3B.489544BB@rcn.com>... > > > something to Faith about beating up a bunch of cops. Buffy didn't know > > > the cops were out of control and neither did the SITs. Just because the > > > one cop inside the Bronze wouldn't let the SITs out to interfere, didn't > > > give them the right to attack him. The cop shot into the ceiling and > > > never pointed the gun at the SITs. > > > > > > Faith was a wanted criminal, they all knew that. They should have been > > > expecting the cops to pick her up. Faith announced her intentions to > > > resist arrest, before she knew the cops were out of control. > > > > It IS Faith! > > > > > The whole > > > scene was very poorly done. > > > > Right now, I think that falls below the radar. More important things > > are going on. > > > Why would it fall below the radar? All Buffy saw was unconscious cops. > She didn't know they were bad, and she doesn't really need another enemy > now, like the Sunnydale police. Caleb, UberVamps, First Evil...........right now, a few unconscious cops aren't a real priority