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2003-01-28 11:20:57-05:00 - What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? If not, how would you describe the difference? -- "First we'll take Manhattan, Then we'll take Berlin."

2003-01-28 11:20:57-05:00 - What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? If not, how would you describe the difference? -- "First we'll take Manhattan, Then we'll take Berlin."

2003-01-28 13:00:38-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - ("Mathew R. Ignash" <mathewignash@comcast.net>)


On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:20:57 -0500, Ebie wrote: > > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > If not, how would you describe the difference? On Angel the tortured form bad ass vampire with a soul who women like with his shirt off and is now in love with a former cheerleader turned precog non-human monster fighter... has dark hair. On BTVS the tortured former bad ass vampire with a soul who women like with his shirt off and is now in love with a former cheerleader turned precog non-human monster fighter... is a blonde. It's like the old commercial. How can you tell McDonalds fish sandwiches from hamburgers? It's it's square it's fish, if it's round it's a burger! -- Mathew Homepage - http://mathew.fcpages.com/ Angel web site - http://angel.fcpages.com/

2003-01-28 13:00:38-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - ("Mathew R. Ignash" <mathewignash@comcast.net>)


On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:20:57 -0500, Ebie wrote: > > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > If not, how would you describe the difference? On Angel the tortured form bad ass vampire with a soul who women like with his shirt off and is now in love with a former cheerleader turned precog non-human monster fighter... has dark hair. On BTVS the tortured former bad ass vampire with a soul who women like with his shirt off and is now in love with a former cheerleader turned precog non-human monster fighter... is a blonde. It's like the old commercial. How can you tell McDonalds fish sandwiches from hamburgers? It's it's square it's fish, if it's round it's a burger! -- Mathew Homepage - http://mathew.fcpages.com/ Angel web site - http://angel.fcpages.com/

2003-01-28 15:11:00-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake "Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net>: >I've always thought AtS was more of a plot driven series, whereas BtVS >seemed more of a character driven show(well at least until season 7 anyway). >The tone of AtS seems slightly different. More comic book elements, etc. It's the questions of tone that I'm mostly interested in. I think :) For example, several people have said that Buffy has gotten darker during the past two seasons, and I agree with that. But *the way* it's gotten darker seems different to me from the "dark" tone that Angel has. For me, I think it might be melodrama vs. film noir. But that's not exactly right, and I'm hoping somebody here can articulate the difference a little more coherently. -- First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin.

2003-01-28 15:11:00-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake "Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net>: >I've always thought AtS was more of a plot driven series, whereas BtVS >seemed more of a character driven show(well at least until season 7 anyway). >The tone of AtS seems slightly different. More comic book elements, etc. It's the questions of tone that I'm mostly interested in. I think :) For example, several people have said that Buffy has gotten darker during the past two seasons, and I agree with that. But *the way* it's gotten darker seems different to me from the "dark" tone that Angel has. For me, I think it might be melodrama vs. film noir. But that's not exactly right, and I'm hoping somebody here can articulate the difference a little more coherently. -- First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin.

2003-01-28 15:37:30-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com>)


Angel is darker and for older people than the Buffy audience. Plus, its a better show.

2003-01-28 15:37:30-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Rupert Pupkin <gringo@yahoo.com>)


Angel is darker and for older people than the Buffy audience. Plus, its a better show.

2003-01-28 15:53:58-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"Ebie" <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:hood3v4dfd23rpnhi5s1ghpjtlbdbkkf7p@4ax.com... > Thus spake "Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net>: > > >I've always thought AtS was more of a plot driven series, whereas BtVS > >seemed more of a character driven show(well at least until season 7 anyway). > >The tone of AtS seems slightly different. More comic book elements, etc. > > It's the questions of tone that I'm mostly interested in. I think :) > > For example, several people have said that Buffy has gotten darker > during the past two seasons, and I agree with that. But *the way* it's > gotten darker seems different to me from the "dark" tone that Angel > has. For me, I think it might be melodrama vs. film noir. But that's > not exactly right, and I'm hoping somebody here can articulate the > difference a little more coherently. Actually, that, to me, just about sums it up. BtVS is more about life, and about how we might deal with some of the crazy things that Buffy has been through. Angel, OTOH, is more like Sam Spade with demons. Which isn't a bad thing, mind you. Arnold Kim

2003-01-28 15:53:58-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"Ebie" <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:hood3v4dfd23rpnhi5s1ghpjtlbdbkkf7p@4ax.com... > Thus spake "Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net>: > > >I've always thought AtS was more of a plot driven series, whereas BtVS > >seemed more of a character driven show(well at least until season 7 anyway). > >The tone of AtS seems slightly different. More comic book elements, etc. > > It's the questions of tone that I'm mostly interested in. I think :) > > For example, several people have said that Buffy has gotten darker > during the past two seasons, and I agree with that. But *the way* it's > gotten darker seems different to me from the "dark" tone that Angel > has. For me, I think it might be melodrama vs. film noir. But that's > not exactly right, and I'm hoping somebody here can articulate the > difference a little more coherently. Actually, that, to me, just about sums it up. BtVS is more about life, and about how we might deal with some of the crazy things that Buffy has been through. Angel, OTOH, is more like Sam Spade with demons. Which isn't a bad thing, mind you. Arnold Kim

2003-01-28 17:23:43-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake "Rupert Pupkin" <gringo@yahoo.com>: >Angel is darker and for older people than the Buffy audience. Plus, its a >better show. Darker how? Darker meaning what? Why do you say it's for older audiences? What are the things about AtS that make it this way? Characters? Plots? Cinematic devices, like the funky zooming and flashcuts they do? I'm not trying to nag, I'm just looking for as much description as I can get. Thanks. -- First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin.

2003-01-28 17:23:43-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake "Rupert Pupkin" <gringo@yahoo.com>: >Angel is darker and for older people than the Buffy audience. Plus, its a >better show. Darker how? Darker meaning what? Why do you say it's for older audiences? What are the things about AtS that make it this way? Characters? Plots? Cinematic devices, like the funky zooming and flashcuts they do? I'm not trying to nag, I'm just looking for as much description as I can get. Thanks. -- First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin.

2003-01-28 18:21:15-06:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - ("Rev. Cyohtee - O'k�home Ehohatse" <cyohtee@barbarian.org>)


Out of the ether Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> rose up and issued forth: > >Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? >If not, how would you describe the difference? AtS has a dark, gritty, Film Noir detective feeling while BtVS has more of a normal mainstream feel to it. -- Cyo cyohtee@ucan.foad.org http://www.barbarian.org/~cyohtee http://www.barbarian.org "Life is like a box of chocolates - a cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift that nobody ever asks for. Unreturnable because all you get in return is another box of chocolates..." - Cigarette Smoking Man

2003-01-28 18:21:15-06:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - ("Rev. Cyohtee - O'k�home Ehohatse" <cyohtee@barbarian.org>)


Out of the ether Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> rose up and issued forth: > >Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? >If not, how would you describe the difference? AtS has a dark, gritty, Film Noir detective feeling while BtVS has more of a normal mainstream feel to it. -- Cyo cyohtee@ucan.foad.org http://www.barbarian.org/~cyohtee http://www.barbarian.org "Life is like a box of chocolates - a cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift that nobody ever asks for. Unreturnable because all you get in return is another box of chocolates..." - Cigarette Smoking Man

2003-01-28 19:18:44+00:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (kszonew@aol.com)


During the first season of Angel, the whole big city thing made it feel different. These days, it still has a different feeling, but it isn't the same fresh feeling which seperated it from Buffy during the Angel series' earlier days.

2003-01-28 19:18:44+00:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (kszonew@aol.com)


During the first season of Angel, the whole big city thing made it feel different. These days, it still has a different feeling, but it isn't the same fresh feeling which seperated it from Buffy during the Angel series' earlier days.

2003-01-28 19:35:09+01:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Wouter Valentijn <Wouter.ValentijnNOT@12move.nl>)


"Mathew R. Ignash" <mathewignash@comcast.net> schreef in bericht news:915878025372603.NC-1.55.mathewignash@news.mi.comcast.giganews.com... > On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:20:57 -0500, Ebie wrote: > > > > > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > > If not, how would you describe the difference? > > On Angel the tortured form bad ass vampire with a soul who women like with his > shirt off and is now in love with a former cheerleader turned precog non-human > monster fighter... has dark hair. > > On BTVS the tortured former bad ass vampire with a soul who women like with his > shirt off and is now in love with a former cheerleader turned precog non-human > monster fighter... is a blonde. You forgot that on BTVS both aren't natural blondes! > > It's like the old commercial. How can you tell McDonalds fish sandwiches from > hamburgers? It's it's square it's fish, if it's round it's a burger! > > -- > Mathew > Homepage - http://mathew.fcpages.com/ > Angel web site - http://angel.fcpages.com/ -- Wouter Valentijn www.ZeppoDunsel.nl Delete NOT in e-mail address >

2003-01-28 19:35:09+01:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Wouter Valentijn <Wouter.ValentijnNOT@12move.nl>)


"Mathew R. Ignash" <mathewignash@comcast.net> schreef in bericht news:915878025372603.NC-1.55.mathewignash@news.mi.comcast.giganews.com... > On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:20:57 -0500, Ebie wrote: > > > > > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > > If not, how would you describe the difference? > > On Angel the tortured form bad ass vampire with a soul who women like with his > shirt off and is now in love with a former cheerleader turned precog non-human > monster fighter... has dark hair. > > On BTVS the tortured former bad ass vampire with a soul who women like with his > shirt off and is now in love with a former cheerleader turned precog non-human > monster fighter... is a blonde. You forgot that on BTVS both aren't natural blondes! > > It's like the old commercial. How can you tell McDonalds fish sandwiches from > hamburgers? It's it's square it's fish, if it's round it's a burger! > > -- > Mathew > Homepage - http://mathew.fcpages.com/ > Angel web site - http://angel.fcpages.com/ -- Wouter Valentijn www.ZeppoDunsel.nl Delete NOT in e-mail address >

2003-01-28 19:39:02+00:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net>)


In article <kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote: > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > If not, how would you describe the difference? prior to last year, I would have said that Angel is darker in tone than buffy. but buffy is catching up. Angel is a guy who had a lousy start on life. he was destined to badness. Becoming a vamp only heightened the path he was set on. Strangely enough, the gypsy curse has been a blessing. Because he has a chance at redemption. So far, he's doing pretty well. But he's still on the edge. There is always a chance that the monster will return and permenantly replace the man. buffy is a coming of age story at its core. About getting rid of the childish things and all that. About learning to stand on your own two feet. Intensified of course, but still there.

2003-01-28 19:39:02+00:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net>)


In article <kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>, Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote: > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > If not, how would you describe the difference? prior to last year, I would have said that Angel is darker in tone than buffy. but buffy is catching up. Angel is a guy who had a lousy start on life. he was destined to badness. Becoming a vamp only heightened the path he was set on. Strangely enough, the gypsy curse has been a blessing. Because he has a chance at redemption. So far, he's doing pretty well. But he's still on the edge. There is always a chance that the monster will return and permenantly replace the man. buffy is a coming of age story at its core. About getting rid of the childish things and all that. About learning to stand on your own two feet. Intensified of course, but still there.

2003-01-28 19:44:11+00:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


I've always thought AtS was more of a plot driven series, whereas BtVS seemed more of a character driven show(well at least until season 7 anyway). The tone of AtS seems slightly different. More comic book elements, etc.

2003-01-28 19:44:11+00:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


I've always thought AtS was more of a plot driven series, whereas BtVS seemed more of a character driven show(well at least until season 7 anyway). The tone of AtS seems slightly different. More comic book elements, etc.

2003-01-28 20:18:44-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (NickKnight <NickKnightonFKNOSPAM@hotmail.com>)


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2003-01-28 20:18:44-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (NickKnight <NickKnightonFKNOSPAM@hotmail.com>)


>Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? About 25 hours? -------------------------------------------- To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

2003-01-29 08:44:42-08:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (smaug86@yahoo.com)


Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>... > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > If not, how would you describe the difference? At this time and point BtVS does not have Angel on it. That's nothing but a good thing, IMNSHO. Smaug69

2003-01-29 08:44:42-08:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (smaug86@yahoo.com)


Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>... > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > If not, how would you describe the difference? At this time and point BtVS does not have Angel on it. That's nothing but a good thing, IMNSHO. Smaug69

2003-01-29 13:19:47-08:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (himiko@animail.net)


Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>... > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > If not, how would you describe the difference? AtS is a far simpler, more formulaic show compared to BTVS...although it still stands out as complex and original compared to most action fantasies: E.G. Beastmaster, Lost World, Relic Hunter, etc.. It does include some metaphors mostly in relation to Angel's redemption story arc and more character-relationship focus than most action shows, but it still is an action drama first. And it's mostly drama. There are humorous moments, but overall AtS is not a comedy and almost never includes the occasional funny episode as BTVS does; the Pylea arc was about as close to full comedy as it ever got. Too bad too, because comedy is where DB excels. BTVS, OTOH, is incredibly complex and impossible to catagorize. It includes multiple arcs (the overall growing up story arc, the seasonal big bad story arcs, and the interwoven relationship story arcs) with metaphors from each crashing into each other as they fly about. Sometimes it's a serious horror show, sometimes it's a parody of a horror show. Sometimes it's a serious teen soap, sometimes it's a parody of same. We've had parodies of just about every known genre, some real life tragedy, some total fantasy, some science fiction, plenty of action drama...you name it, BTVS did it...sometimes in a single episode. The dialogue is pure theater of the absurd and so are many of the situations. If BTVS continues as FTVS or somebody else the vampire slayer, I suspect the result will be more like AtS: an unusually creative action show with complex, interesting characters in ever-changing relationships. But it won't be BTVS. What I'd prefer to see in a spin-off is a whole new concept or at least the old concept (growing up portrayed as action fantasy) applied to an existing character. They could easily continue Willow's growing up saga, just shifting the metaphors from vampire slaying to magic; this would mean less action in the mix, but would allow for great metaphors for being gay in America. Spike would be a bit harder; possibly a coping with mental illness and recovery metaphor mixed in with the (now restarted) growing up? Xander? I don't know. I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, but still, it's a tradition. himiko

2003-01-29 13:19:47-08:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (himiko@animail.net)


Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>... > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > If not, how would you describe the difference? AtS is a far simpler, more formulaic show compared to BTVS...although it still stands out as complex and original compared to most action fantasies: E.G. Beastmaster, Lost World, Relic Hunter, etc.. It does include some metaphors mostly in relation to Angel's redemption story arc and more character-relationship focus than most action shows, but it still is an action drama first. And it's mostly drama. There are humorous moments, but overall AtS is not a comedy and almost never includes the occasional funny episode as BTVS does; the Pylea arc was about as close to full comedy as it ever got. Too bad too, because comedy is where DB excels. BTVS, OTOH, is incredibly complex and impossible to catagorize. It includes multiple arcs (the overall growing up story arc, the seasonal big bad story arcs, and the interwoven relationship story arcs) with metaphors from each crashing into each other as they fly about. Sometimes it's a serious horror show, sometimes it's a parody of a horror show. Sometimes it's a serious teen soap, sometimes it's a parody of same. We've had parodies of just about every known genre, some real life tragedy, some total fantasy, some science fiction, plenty of action drama...you name it, BTVS did it...sometimes in a single episode. The dialogue is pure theater of the absurd and so are many of the situations. If BTVS continues as FTVS or somebody else the vampire slayer, I suspect the result will be more like AtS: an unusually creative action show with complex, interesting characters in ever-changing relationships. But it won't be BTVS. What I'd prefer to see in a spin-off is a whole new concept or at least the old concept (growing up portrayed as action fantasy) applied to an existing character. They could easily continue Willow's growing up saga, just shifting the metaphors from vampire slaying to magic; this would mean less action in the mix, but would allow for great metaphors for being gay in America. Spike would be a bit harder; possibly a coping with mental illness and recovery metaphor mixed in with the (now restarted) growing up? Xander? I don't know. I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, but still, it's a tradition. himiko

2003-01-29 13:34:17-08:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Rwill84@msn.com)


"Rupert Pupkin" <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<0qycnZQGZYVZd6ujXTWcqw@comcast.com>... > Angel is darker and for older people than the Buffy audience. Plus, its a > better show. Angel is not all that darker than Buffy and I don't think you will get allot of people agreeing with your assesment that it's a better show. I would say up until the middle of Angels second season it was an incredibly good show but it has never really come close to being as good as BTVS.

2003-01-29 13:34:17-08:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Rwill84@msn.com)


"Rupert Pupkin" <gringo@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<0qycnZQGZYVZd6ujXTWcqw@comcast.com>... > Angel is darker and for older people than the Buffy audience. Plus, its a > better show. Angel is not all that darker than Buffy and I don't think you will get allot of people agreeing with your assesment that it's a better show. I would say up until the middle of Angels second season it was an incredibly good show but it has never really come close to being as good as BTVS.

2003-01-29 14:00:28+11:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Prodigy <ProdigyUK1@aol.com>)


Rev. Cyohtee - O'k���home Ehohatse <cyohtee@barbarian.org> wrote in message news:uh7e3vgdrqkmf8mh6eu2u2l4ra04qkqtkk@4ax.com... > Out of the ether Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> rose up and issued forth: > > > > >Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > >If not, how would you describe the difference? > > AtS has a dark, gritty, Film Noir detective feeling Sure. At least the 1st season of Angel was like that. But now, it's hardly dark and gritty, and it's hardly Film Noirish.

2003-01-29 14:00:28+11:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Prodigy <ProdigyUK1@aol.com>)


Rev. Cyohtee - O'k���home Ehohatse <cyohtee@barbarian.org> wrote in message news:uh7e3vgdrqkmf8mh6eu2u2l4ra04qkqtkk@4ax.com... > Out of the ether Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> rose up and issued forth: > > > > >Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > >If not, how would you describe the difference? > > AtS has a dark, gritty, Film Noir detective feeling Sure. At least the 1st season of Angel was like that. But now, it's hardly dark and gritty, and it's hardly Film Noirish.

2003-01-29 20:36:25-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake himiko@animail.net (himiko): >Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>... >> Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? >> If not, how would you describe the difference? > >AtS is a far simpler, more formulaic show compared to BTVS... [much thoughtful analysis snipped] Thanks for the usual deep inspection of the issue at hand. It very much helps me articulate my similar thoughts about the differences between the two shows. -- First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin.

2003-01-29 20:36:25-05:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake himiko@animail.net (himiko): >Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>... >> Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? >> If not, how would you describe the difference? > >AtS is a far simpler, more formulaic show compared to BTVS... [much thoughtful analysis snipped] Thanks for the usual deep inspection of the issue at hand. It very much helps me articulate my similar thoughts about the differences between the two shows. -- First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin.

2003-01-30 00:01:19+01:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Wouter Valentijn <Wouter.ValentijnNOT@12move.nl>)


"himiko" <himiko@animail.net> schreef in bericht news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... > Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>... > > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > > If not, how would you describe the difference? > > AtS is a far simpler, more formulaic show compared to BTVS...although > it still stands out as complex and original compared to most action > fantasies: E.G. Beastmaster, Lost World, Relic Hunter, etc.. It does > include some metaphors mostly in relation to Angel's redemption story > arc and more character-relationship focus than most action shows, but > it still is an action drama first. > > And it's mostly drama. There are humorous moments, but overall AtS is > not a comedy and almost never includes the occasional funny episode as > BTVS does; the Pylea arc was about as close to full comedy as it ever > got. Too bad too, because comedy is where DB excels. > > BTVS, OTOH, is incredibly complex and impossible to catagorize. It > includes multiple arcs (the overall growing up story arc, the seasonal > big bad story arcs, and the interwoven relationship story arcs) with > metaphors > from each crashing into each other as they fly about. Sometimes it's > a serious horror show, sometimes it's a parody of a horror show. > Sometimes it's a serious teen soap, sometimes it's a parody of same. > We've had parodies of just about every known genre, some real life > tragedy, some total fantasy, some science fiction, plenty of action > drama...you name it, BTVS did it...sometimes in a single episode. The > dialogue is pure theater of the absurd and so are many of the > situations. > > If BTVS continues as FTVS or somebody else the vampire slayer, I > suspect the result will be more like AtS: an unusually creative action > show with complex, interesting characters in ever-changing > relationships. But it won't be BTVS. > > What I'd prefer to see in a spin-off is a whole new concept or at > least the old concept (growing up portrayed as action fantasy) applied > to an existing character. They could easily continue Willow's growing > up saga, just shifting the metaphors from vampire slaying to magic; > this would mean less action in the mix, but would allow for great > metaphors for being gay in America. Spike would be a bit harder; > possibly a coping with mental illness and recovery metaphor mixed in > with the (now restarted) growing up? Xander? I don't know. > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, > but still, it's a tradition. Don't know about Spike (wouldn't Xander want to dust him in the end?), but I could definitely see a 'Willow and Xander' sitcom. BTW, tonight I saw the season 6 finale. I had read about it, but still it blew me away. Great episode, one of the best ever! -- Wouter Valentijn www.ZeppoDunsel.nl Delete NOT in e-mail address

2003-01-30 00:01:19+01:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Wouter Valentijn <Wouter.ValentijnNOT@12move.nl>)


"himiko" <himiko@animail.net> schreef in bericht news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... > Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>... > > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > > If not, how would you describe the difference? > > AtS is a far simpler, more formulaic show compared to BTVS...although > it still stands out as complex and original compared to most action > fantasies: E.G. Beastmaster, Lost World, Relic Hunter, etc.. It does > include some metaphors mostly in relation to Angel's redemption story > arc and more character-relationship focus than most action shows, but > it still is an action drama first. > > And it's mostly drama. There are humorous moments, but overall AtS is > not a comedy and almost never includes the occasional funny episode as > BTVS does; the Pylea arc was about as close to full comedy as it ever > got. Too bad too, because comedy is where DB excels. > > BTVS, OTOH, is incredibly complex and impossible to catagorize. It > includes multiple arcs (the overall growing up story arc, the seasonal > big bad story arcs, and the interwoven relationship story arcs) with > metaphors > from each crashing into each other as they fly about. Sometimes it's > a serious horror show, sometimes it's a parody of a horror show. > Sometimes it's a serious teen soap, sometimes it's a parody of same. > We've had parodies of just about every known genre, some real life > tragedy, some total fantasy, some science fiction, plenty of action > drama...you name it, BTVS did it...sometimes in a single episode. The > dialogue is pure theater of the absurd and so are many of the > situations. > > If BTVS continues as FTVS or somebody else the vampire slayer, I > suspect the result will be more like AtS: an unusually creative action > show with complex, interesting characters in ever-changing > relationships. But it won't be BTVS. > > What I'd prefer to see in a spin-off is a whole new concept or at > least the old concept (growing up portrayed as action fantasy) applied > to an existing character. They could easily continue Willow's growing > up saga, just shifting the metaphors from vampire slaying to magic; > this would mean less action in the mix, but would allow for great > metaphors for being gay in America. Spike would be a bit harder; > possibly a coping with mental illness and recovery metaphor mixed in > with the (now restarted) growing up? Xander? I don't know. > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, > but still, it's a tradition. Don't know about Spike (wouldn't Xander want to dust him in the end?), but I could definitely see a 'Willow and Xander' sitcom. BTW, tonight I saw the season 6 finale. I had read about it, but still it blew me away. Great episode, one of the best ever! -- Wouter Valentijn www.ZeppoDunsel.nl Delete NOT in e-mail address

2003-01-30 09:12:38-06:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


> "himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message > news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... > > > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support > > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female > > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, > > but still, it's a tradition. Two Guys, a Witch and a Pizza Place? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-01-30 09:12:38-06:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


> "himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message > news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... > > > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support > > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female > > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, > > but still, it's a tradition. Two Guys, a Witch and a Pizza Place? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-01-30 10:28:34-08:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (himiko@animail.net)


Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote in message news:<a-63F4C8.09123830012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > "himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message > > news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... > > > > > > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support > > > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female > > > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, > > > but still, it's a tradition. > > Two Guys, a Witch and a Pizza Place? The Witch, The Vampire, and the Carpenter. I don't know if that's a take on Narnia or Through the Looking Glass. himiko

2003-01-30 10:28:34-08:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (himiko@animail.net)


Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote in message news:<a-63F4C8.09123830012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > "himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message > > news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... > > > > > > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support > > > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female > > > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, > > > but still, it's a tradition. > > Two Guys, a Witch and a Pizza Place? The Witch, The Vampire, and the Carpenter. I don't know if that's a take on Narnia or Through the Looking Glass. himiko

2003-01-30 14:20:48+00:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... > Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>... > > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > > If not, how would you describe the difference? > > AtS is a far simpler, more formulaic show compared to BTVS...although > it still stands out as complex and original compared to most action > fantasies: E.G. Beastmaster, Lost World, Relic Hunter, etc.. It does > include some metaphors mostly in relation to Angel's redemption story > arc and more character-relationship focus than most action shows, but > it still is an action drama first. > > And it's mostly drama. There are humorous moments, but overall AtS is > not a comedy and almost never includes the occasional funny episode as > BTVS does; the Pylea arc was about as close to full comedy as it ever > got. Too bad too, because comedy is where DB excels. > > BTVS, OTOH, is incredibly complex and impossible to catagorize. It > includes multiple arcs (the overall growing up story arc, the seasonal > big bad story arcs, and the interwoven relationship story arcs) with > metaphors > from each crashing into each other as they fly about. Sometimes it's > a serious horror show, sometimes it's a parody of a horror show. > Sometimes it's a serious teen soap, sometimes it's a parody of same. > We've had parodies of just about every known genre, some real life > tragedy, some total fantasy, some science fiction, plenty of action > drama...you name it, BTVS did it...sometimes in a single episode. The > dialogue is pure theater of the absurd and so are many of the > situations. > > If BTVS continues as FTVS or somebody else the vampire slayer, I > suspect the result will be more like AtS: an unusually creative action > show with complex, interesting characters in ever-changing > relationships. But it won't be BTVS. > > What I'd prefer to see in a spin-off is a whole new concept or at > least the old concept (growing up portrayed as action fantasy) applied > to an existing character. They could easily continue Willow's growing > up saga, just shifting the metaphors from vampire slaying to magic; > this would mean less action in the mix, but would allow for great > metaphors for being gay in America. Spike would be a bit harder; > possibly a coping with mental illness and recovery metaphor mixed in > with the (now restarted) growing up? Xander? I don't know. > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, > but still, it's a tradition. > > himiko Great analysis of the 2 shows. At this point in each show's life, I think AtS works better as pure entertainment than Buffy, but AtS has never had the depth of BtVS, and probably never will.

2003-01-30 14:20:48+00:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... > Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com>... > > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > > If not, how would you describe the difference? > > AtS is a far simpler, more formulaic show compared to BTVS...although > it still stands out as complex and original compared to most action > fantasies: E.G. Beastmaster, Lost World, Relic Hunter, etc.. It does > include some metaphors mostly in relation to Angel's redemption story > arc and more character-relationship focus than most action shows, but > it still is an action drama first. > > And it's mostly drama. There are humorous moments, but overall AtS is > not a comedy and almost never includes the occasional funny episode as > BTVS does; the Pylea arc was about as close to full comedy as it ever > got. Too bad too, because comedy is where DB excels. > > BTVS, OTOH, is incredibly complex and impossible to catagorize. It > includes multiple arcs (the overall growing up story arc, the seasonal > big bad story arcs, and the interwoven relationship story arcs) with > metaphors > from each crashing into each other as they fly about. Sometimes it's > a serious horror show, sometimes it's a parody of a horror show. > Sometimes it's a serious teen soap, sometimes it's a parody of same. > We've had parodies of just about every known genre, some real life > tragedy, some total fantasy, some science fiction, plenty of action > drama...you name it, BTVS did it...sometimes in a single episode. The > dialogue is pure theater of the absurd and so are many of the > situations. > > If BTVS continues as FTVS or somebody else the vampire slayer, I > suspect the result will be more like AtS: an unusually creative action > show with complex, interesting characters in ever-changing > relationships. But it won't be BTVS. > > What I'd prefer to see in a spin-off is a whole new concept or at > least the old concept (growing up portrayed as action fantasy) applied > to an existing character. They could easily continue Willow's growing > up saga, just shifting the metaphors from vampire slaying to magic; > this would mean less action in the mix, but would allow for great > metaphors for being gay in America. Spike would be a bit harder; > possibly a coping with mental illness and recovery metaphor mixed in > with the (now restarted) growing up? Xander? I don't know. > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, > but still, it's a tradition. > > himiko Great analysis of the 2 shows. At this point in each show's life, I think AtS works better as pure entertainment than Buffy, but AtS has never had the depth of BtVS, and probably never will.

2003-01-30 15:54:40-06:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - ("Rev. Cyohtee - O'k�home Ehohatse" <cyohtee@barbarian.org>)


Out of the ether himiko@animail.net (himiko) rose up and issued forth: >Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote in message news:<a-63F4C8.09123830012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... >> > "himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message >> > news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... >> >> > > >> > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support >> > > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female >> > > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, >> > > but still, it's a tradition. >> >> Two Guys, a Witch and a Pizza Place? > >The Witch, The Vampire, and the Carpenter. I don't know if that's a >take on Narnia or Through the Looking Glass. > >himiko The Vampire, The Witch, and The Wardrobe Builder. -- Cyo cyohtee@ucan.foad.org http://www.barbarian.org/~cyohtee http://www.barbarian.org "You're dead, this is the afterlife -- and I'm God" -- Q (Tapestry)

2003-01-30 15:54:40-06:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - ("Rev. Cyohtee - O'k�home Ehohatse" <cyohtee@barbarian.org>)


Out of the ether himiko@animail.net (himiko) rose up and issued forth: >Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote in message news:<a-63F4C8.09123830012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... >> > "himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message >> > news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... >> >> > > >> > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support >> > > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female >> > > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, >> > > but still, it's a tradition. >> >> Two Guys, a Witch and a Pizza Place? > >The Witch, The Vampire, and the Carpenter. I don't know if that's a >take on Narnia or Through the Looking Glass. > >himiko The Vampire, The Witch, and The Wardrobe Builder. -- Cyo cyohtee@ucan.foad.org http://www.barbarian.org/~cyohtee http://www.barbarian.org "You're dead, this is the afterlife -- and I'm God" -- Q (Tapestry)

2003-01-30 23:28:40-08:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (wallyrosenberg@hotmail.com)


himiko@animail.net (himiko) wrote in message news:<c7902983.0301301028.53ccb3c2@posting.google.com>... > Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote in message news:<a-63F4C8.09123830012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > > "himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message > > > news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... > > > > > > > > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support > > > > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female > > > > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, > > > > but still, it's a tradition. > > > > Two Guys, a Witch and a Pizza Place? > > The Witch, The Vampire, and the Carpenter. I don't know if that's a > take on Narnia or Through the Looking Glass. > > himiko Going with the Lewis Carroll reference, and assuming Xander's weight follows the historical trend, I give you his solo spin-off: Walrus/Carpenter.

2003-01-30 23:28:40-08:00 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (wallyrosenberg@hotmail.com)


himiko@animail.net (himiko) wrote in message news:<c7902983.0301301028.53ccb3c2@posting.google.com>... > Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote in message news:<a-63F4C8.09123830012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > > "himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message > > > news:c7902983.0301291319.4a860d51@posting.google.com... > > > > > > > > > I think Willow as lead with the two guys as her bickering support > > > > would work best, and also continue the BTVS tradition of a female > > > > action lead...not so radical now as it was when the show first aired, > > > > but still, it's a tradition. > > > > Two Guys, a Witch and a Pizza Place? > > The Witch, The Vampire, and the Carpenter. I don't know if that's a > take on Narnia or Through the Looking Glass. > > himiko Going with the Lewis Carroll reference, and assuming Xander's weight follows the historical trend, I give you his solo spin-off: Walrus/Carpenter.

2003-02-01 22:37:15+10:30 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Tim Cunnings <tcunnings@austarnet.com.au>)


"Ebie" <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com... > > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > If not, how would you describe the difference? Angel pulls off a grown up feel much better, and generally tackles life issues far better also. With Angel you can have regular joe people playing a part in the 'good fight' without having to have everyone be a kind of super hero or something. OK, so Cordi got the power of the visions, but thats not really giving her any kind of super powers like say, Willow. Wes is a normal Joe (apart from being ex watched, but unlike Giles is not a black arts man with extra powers). Gunn is very normal. Fred is just a brainy girl who is still kinda shaken up from being both a nerd for her life, and having been in a weird place for 5 years. You also have regular joe (kate) cops, social workers, street gang members, lawyers etc. On Buffy, you don't get a look in unless you are a slayer, witch, ex (demon) vampire, ball of energy, ex arch villain, son of a slayer, specially trained military demon hunter or a pre selected slayer in training or a man who was trained from an early age to fight the forces of evil. Poor old Xander feels left out, as should he... Angel deals better with having the crew live more normal lives, homes, a place of work etc. The often complex storylines of Buffy are its strength, but often end up creating more issues that seem somewhat unrealistic. Xander is placed in what seems to be the most perfect job with skills that really can't be explained. How does Willow live? There has never been a hint that her parents still foot the bill. Even if they did, they could not possibly have missed the dark willow of season 6. How the hell can Buffy really be working at the high school. Son of a slayer or not, the principal could not, in any real world scenario explain her employment. OK, so Buffy is just a TV show and its made up right? Well true, but the writers of Angel seem to try and keep the show grounded in reality more than the Buffy writers. Buffy can at times be a bit too out there. Without knowing it, Buffy is a little like late series X-files, while Angel is still more like the first seasons X-Files... As to which I prefer. Hard...I am and always will be a Buffymaniac, but I really have grown to love Angel. I actually feel it has the stronger cast (character and actor wise) of the two shows. David B is amazing. He pulls of emotional scenes better than SMG now I think, and is a lot funnier any day of the week. Cordi is just magic. The character grew so much in season 1 and 2 of Angel, it was great to show how she left school behind and became a caring young woman. If you compare her to I suppose Willow in the lead sidekick role, they changed the character a bit too unexplained I feel. Willow went from Nerdy girl to cool college chick, to dark witch and back again in a way I did not like. If you line up Wes against I suppose both Xander for the comedy and Giles for the British smarts and fighting skills, I would say Wes pulls of the job well. Gunn is a little like the extra player at times, somewhat in the front and then a supporting man. I would say he is almost a bit Tara like. But he is very well used. Anya was brought in to replace the witty mouth and attitude of Cordi, and to fill the void left by her and give Xander something to be interested in. While I actually really like Anya, she kinda pales to season 1-3 Cordi. I like Dawn, and her role in season 5-6 was pivotal, but she maybe is a bit of a sidekick now, and I wasted I think. Fred is a similar type, and the character is still a bit too new to really compare. I hope she is used more. Lorne Gives Angel a massive boost with witty comedy and weirdness. Leaving me with Spike. While I love spike and the attitude he brings, the way the writers have used him as Buffy's love interest/sidekick kinda has removed much of the charm of the 4 key vamps in the Buffyverse. Darla and Dru are (were) still very icy evil cool. Angel has not really changed that much other than that is seems Cordi, Wes, Gunn and co have been better for him in helping him become more 'human' than the Buffy crew ever did. But poor old spike really has been ruined a bit, made look like a twit, and generally demystified too much. The final big difference, you are more likely to see a Vampire get killed on Angel. despite having Vampire in the name, Buffy kinda stopped being about Vampires and the end of season 2. Angel never was about fighting Vamps as a main focus, but at least you still get some. -- Tim Cunnings "My email is powered by an AMD Athlon!"

2003-02-01 22:37:15+10:30 - Re: What's the difference between AtS and BtVS? - (Tim Cunnings <tcunnings@austarnet.com.au>)


"Ebie" <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:kdbd3v0i33ml9bh4skt2gbmkg736ec0q0i@4ax.com... > > Does AtS have the same *tone* that BtVS does? > If not, how would you describe the difference? Angel pulls off a grown up feel much better, and generally tackles life issues far better also. With Angel you can have regular joe people playing a part in the 'good fight' without having to have everyone be a kind of super hero or something. OK, so Cordi got the power of the visions, but thats not really giving her any kind of super powers like say, Willow. Wes is a normal Joe (apart from being ex watched, but unlike Giles is not a black arts man with extra powers). Gunn is very normal. Fred is just a brainy girl who is still kinda shaken up from being both a nerd for her life, and having been in a weird place for 5 years. You also have regular joe (kate) cops, social workers, street gang members, lawyers etc. On Buffy, you don't get a look in unless you are a slayer, witch, ex (demon) vampire, ball of energy, ex arch villain, son of a slayer, specially trained military demon hunter or a pre selected slayer in training or a man who was trained from an early age to fight the forces of evil. Poor old Xander feels left out, as should he... Angel deals better with having the crew live more normal lives, homes, a place of work etc. The often complex storylines of Buffy are its strength, but often end up creating more issues that seem somewhat unrealistic. Xander is placed in what seems to be the most perfect job with skills that really can't be explained. How does Willow live? There has never been a hint that her parents still foot the bill. Even if they did, they could not possibly have missed the dark willow of season 6. How the hell can Buffy really be working at the high school. Son of a slayer or not, the principal could not, in any real world scenario explain her employment. OK, so Buffy is just a TV show and its made up right? Well true, but the writers of Angel seem to try and keep the show grounded in reality more than the Buffy writers. Buffy can at times be a bit too out there. Without knowing it, Buffy is a little like late series X-files, while Angel is still more like the first seasons X-Files... As to which I prefer. Hard...I am and always will be a Buffymaniac, but I really have grown to love Angel. I actually feel it has the stronger cast (character and actor wise) of the two shows. David B is amazing. He pulls of emotional scenes better than SMG now I think, and is a lot funnier any day of the week. Cordi is just magic. The character grew so much in season 1 and 2 of Angel, it was great to show how she left school behind and became a caring young woman. If you compare her to I suppose Willow in the lead sidekick role, they changed the character a bit too unexplained I feel. Willow went from Nerdy girl to cool college chick, to dark witch and back again in a way I did not like. If you line up Wes against I suppose both Xander for the comedy and Giles for the British smarts and fighting skills, I would say Wes pulls of the job well. Gunn is a little like the extra player at times, somewhat in the front and then a supporting man. I would say he is almost a bit Tara like. But he is very well used. Anya was brought in to replace the witty mouth and attitude of Cordi, and to fill the void left by her and give Xander something to be interested in. While I actually really like Anya, she kinda pales to season 1-3 Cordi. I like Dawn, and her role in season 5-6 was pivotal, but she maybe is a bit of a sidekick now, and I wasted I think. Fred is a similar type, and the character is still a bit too new to really compare. I hope she is used more. Lorne Gives Angel a massive boost with witty comedy and weirdness. Leaving me with Spike. While I love spike and the attitude he brings, the way the writers have used him as Buffy's love interest/sidekick kinda has removed much of the charm of the 4 key vamps in the Buffyverse. Darla and Dru are (were) still very icy evil cool. Angel has not really changed that much other than that is seems Cordi, Wes, Gunn and co have been better for him in helping him become more 'human' than the Buffy crew ever did. But poor old spike really has been ruined a bit, made look like a twit, and generally demystified too much. The final big difference, you are more likely to see a Vampire get killed on Angel. despite having Vampire in the name, Buffy kinda stopped being about Vampires and the end of season 2. Angel never was about fighting Vamps as a main focus, but at least you still get some. -- Tim Cunnings "My email is powered by an AMD Athlon!"