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2003-04-10 14:06:27-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 10 Apr 2003 17:29:54 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >>Subject: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>From: lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) >>Date: 4/10/2003 8:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time >>Message-id: <20030410113237.08855.00000933@mb-fj.aol.com> >> >>How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine >>who >>was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to >>revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. >> >>The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the >>background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But >>apparently >>since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. >>And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no >>I >>don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her >>intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an >>utter >>moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? >> > >Why is it that some people who don't care for Spike tend to think that the >world revolves around him? Not the world, the show. >I don't get the Spike Envy. I really don't. At least Xander has gotten laid >this season and has become a nicer, more mature person. He hasn't been punished >for trying to rape Buffy when he was an evil demonic creature. If they gave him >an actual storyline he, too, might merely be Buffy's stray pooch. It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me still around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly and the show has changed appreciably since making Spike a regular way back in season 4. It has nothing to do with lines per episode or who's getting laid. Treating Spike badly is still more treatment then anyone else has gotten. It has to do with Spike becoming Buffy's defacto confident and co-star and having his story of Buffy obsession/ redemption rival even her continuing story. For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. For others of us, not so much. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-10 14:06:27-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 10 Apr 2003 17:29:54 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >>Subject: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>From: lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) >>Date: 4/10/2003 8:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time >>Message-id: <20030410113237.08855.00000933@mb-fj.aol.com> >> >>How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine >>who >>was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to >>revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. >> >>The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the >>background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But >>apparently >>since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. >>And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no >>I >>don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her >>intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an >>utter >>moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? >> > >Why is it that some people who don't care for Spike tend to think that the >world revolves around him? Not the world, the show. >I don't get the Spike Envy. I really don't. At least Xander has gotten laid >this season and has become a nicer, more mature person. He hasn't been punished >for trying to rape Buffy when he was an evil demonic creature. If they gave him >an actual storyline he, too, might merely be Buffy's stray pooch. It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me still around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly and the show has changed appreciably since making Spike a regular way back in season 4. It has nothing to do with lines per episode or who's getting laid. Treating Spike badly is still more treatment then anyone else has gotten. It has to do with Spike becoming Buffy's defacto confident and co-star and having his story of Buffy obsession/ redemption rival even her continuing story. For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. For others of us, not so much. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-10 14:31:14-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 10 Apr 2003 18:12:02 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >EGK wrote: > >> >>It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me still >>around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly > >I'm not talking about people like you. I'm talking about people who don't like >Spike and who feel that the reason other characters don't get screen time, or >are changed in personality, is that Spike is a regular. That's just it. You get very defensive and think everyone is a Spike hater. I think there are a lot more fans like me who used to say he was one of their favorite characters until he was ruined. At the same time, they focused way too much of the show around him. >They feel that Spike fans are better off than fans of other characters, and I >feel it's not true. Spike has a storyline, but it's one that does no justice >to his character. Lots of the Spike fans seem to disagree with you and are very happy the show chose to focus much more attention on him. I think you would have been more then happy to have it be The Spike Show too. You just didn't like where they took the character any more then I have. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-10 14:31:14-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 10 Apr 2003 18:12:02 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >EGK wrote: > >> >>It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me still >>around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly > >I'm not talking about people like you. I'm talking about people who don't like >Spike and who feel that the reason other characters don't get screen time, or >are changed in personality, is that Spike is a regular. That's just it. You get very defensive and think everyone is a Spike hater. I think there are a lot more fans like me who used to say he was one of their favorite characters until he was ruined. At the same time, they focused way too much of the show around him. >They feel that Spike fans are better off than fans of other characters, and I >feel it's not true. Spike has a storyline, but it's one that does no justice >to his character. Lots of the Spike fans seem to disagree with you and are very happy the show chose to focus much more attention on him. I think you would have been more then happy to have it be The Spike Show too. You just didn't like where they took the character any more then I have. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-10 14:41:50-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:24:21 GMT, "Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote: > >"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >> It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me >still >> around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly >> and the show has changed appreciably since making Spike a regular way back >> in season 4. It has nothing to do with lines per episode or who's getting >> laid. Treating Spike badly is still more treatment then anyone else has >> gotten. It has to do with Spike becoming Buffy's defacto confident and >> co-star and having his story of Buffy obsession/ redemption rival even her >> continuing story. >> >> For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from >> BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >> For others of us, not so much. > >But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. >I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it >would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: >The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of >Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this >year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their >former selves. I disagree it's not the Spike Show. Even when Spike isn't on-screen, way too much of the plots are dependent on what's going on with him. Season 6 Buffy was all about her co-dependency on Spike and Spike's attempts to drag Buffy away from her friends. Spike even replaced Giles last year as the only person Buffy could talk to We had Spike and Buffy sex and beatings, Spike's rape attempt, Spike's soul quest. Only Willow had a story to rival Spike and that story sucked the big one. This season, a good portion of the plot has still revolved around Spike. Back from his soul quest. Is insane Spike still killing? The FE captures and tortures Spike. Buffy must rescue Spike. Buffy must get the chip out of Spike. Does the FE still control Spike? Spike is Buffy's best warrior. Giles doesn't trust Spike. Spike killed Nikki and Wood wants to kill Spike. Buffy protects Spike. Tell me again how the show isn't revolving around Spike? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-10 14:41:50-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:24:21 GMT, "Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote: > >"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >> It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me >still >> around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly >> and the show has changed appreciably since making Spike a regular way back >> in season 4. It has nothing to do with lines per episode or who's getting >> laid. Treating Spike badly is still more treatment then anyone else has >> gotten. It has to do with Spike becoming Buffy's defacto confident and >> co-star and having his story of Buffy obsession/ redemption rival even her >> continuing story. >> >> For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from >> BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >> For others of us, not so much. > >But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. >I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it >would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: >The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of >Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this >year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their >former selves. I disagree it's not the Spike Show. Even when Spike isn't on-screen, way too much of the plots are dependent on what's going on with him. Season 6 Buffy was all about her co-dependency on Spike and Spike's attempts to drag Buffy away from her friends. Spike even replaced Giles last year as the only person Buffy could talk to We had Spike and Buffy sex and beatings, Spike's rape attempt, Spike's soul quest. Only Willow had a story to rival Spike and that story sucked the big one. This season, a good portion of the plot has still revolved around Spike. Back from his soul quest. Is insane Spike still killing? The FE captures and tortures Spike. Buffy must rescue Spike. Buffy must get the chip out of Spike. Does the FE still control Spike? Spike is Buffy's best warrior. Giles doesn't trust Spike. Spike killed Nikki and Wood wants to kill Spike. Buffy protects Spike. Tell me again how the show isn't revolving around Spike? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-10 14:53:58-07:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) wrote in message news:<20030410113237.08855.00000933@mb-fj.aol.com>... > How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who > was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to > revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > > The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the > background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But apparently > since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. > And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no I > don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her > intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an utter > moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? > > This show used to be so amazing, you can't seriously tell me Season 6 [and > Season 7 whichis turning out to be much worse] could hold a candle to 1-5. I > find myself unable to watch whole episodes. I want to be angry and bitter, but > mostly I just feel really sad. I know what you mean. I think the peaked in the latter part of season two through to the end of season three. It began to lose itself through seasons 4 and 5 and finally hit rock bottom in the latter part of season 6. Season 7 has had two good episodes (SELFLESS and CWDP), but the nature in which ME has developed the B/S stuff ("I believe in you") has really hurt the season.

2003-04-10 14:53:58-07:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) wrote in message news:<20030410113237.08855.00000933@mb-fj.aol.com>... > How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who > was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to > revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > > The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the > background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But apparently > since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. > And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no I > don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her > intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an utter > moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? > > This show used to be so amazing, you can't seriously tell me Season 6 [and > Season 7 whichis turning out to be much worse] could hold a candle to 1-5. I > find myself unable to watch whole episodes. I want to be angry and bitter, but > mostly I just feel really sad. I know what you mean. I think the peaked in the latter part of season two through to the end of season three. It began to lose itself through seasons 4 and 5 and finally hit rock bottom in the latter part of season 6. Season 7 has had two good episodes (SELFLESS and CWDP), but the nature in which ME has developed the B/S stuff ("I believe in you") has really hurt the season.

2003-04-10 14:58:17-07:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message > news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... > > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from > > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. > > For others of us, not so much. > > But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. > I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it > would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: > The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of > Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this > year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character > left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their > former selves. I think there's an important point in this paragraph. I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season 5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to the criticism. But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME.

2003-04-10 14:58:17-07:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message > news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... > > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from > > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. > > For others of us, not so much. > > But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. > I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it > would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: > The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of > Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this > year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character > left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their > former selves. I think there's an important point in this paragraph. I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season 5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to the criticism. But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME.

2003-04-10 15:32:37+00:00 - BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (lyraangelica@aol.com)


How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But apparently since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no I don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an utter moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? This show used to be so amazing, you can't seriously tell me Season 6 [and Season 7 whichis turning out to be much worse] could hold a candle to 1-5. I find myself unable to watch whole episodes. I want to be angry and bitter, but mostly I just feel really sad.

2003-04-10 15:32:37+00:00 - BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (lyraangelica@aol.com)


How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But apparently since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no I don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an utter moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? This show used to be so amazing, you can't seriously tell me Season 6 [and Season 7 whichis turning out to be much worse] could hold a candle to 1-5. I find myself unable to watch whole episodes. I want to be angry and bitter, but mostly I just feel really sad.

2003-04-10 17:09:13-07:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (himiko@animail.net)


lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) wrote in message news:<20030410113237.08855.00000933@mb-fj.aol.com>... > How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who > was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to > revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > > The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the > background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But apparently > since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. > And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no I > don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her > intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an utter > moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? No on two counts: 1. If you still think Spike is Angel-lite or Angel-anything, you haven't been paying attention. 2. The reason Willow (who you totally forgot to mention), Xander, and Giles haven't gotten much of a story this season (and I agree with you on that) has nothing to do with Spike. The focus this season has been on Buffy, Buffy, and no one but Buffy. This is probably because it's her story in ME's opinion. The others exist only in terms of how they impact Buffy and/or how she sees them. Spike gets some time, enough for a decent story, because he is at the center of Buffy's world at the moment. She's young and trying to decide if she's in love with the guy...and if she should have any kind of relationship with him even if she is. Tell me you know any young woman of that age who doesn't focus a fair amount of attention on that sort of thing regardless of whatever else she may be doing. Wood gets more time than you'd think for a new character because he too is important to Buffy on several levels: romantic is milder than expected, but he's also a sign that a slayer can have a child, a link to her slayer heritage: simultaneously a cause for hope and a potential threat. Same with the SiTs. They are various aspects of younger Buffy and so get focused on now and then as needed to emphasize some aspect of Buffyness. Faith is returning for what she can reveal about slayage and a Buffy that could have been but isn't, one way or another. Buffy's dark shadow. Angel is returning, not for any plot purpose or he'd have brought more of the AI gang with him, but because of what he means to Buffy...probably her need for closure on a number of points. Giles actually is developing although not in a way Giles fans like...because that also has to do with him and Buffy and the whole breaking free of parental control thing. We don't see his personal story as much as I'd like and think would be appropriate. Xander and Dawn (who you also didn't mention) have no stories because Buffy takes them and their support for granted...and we see them through her eyes. I hope this turns out to be a mistake because I think it's a very unlikeable trait in Buffy, but it probably won't. Willow suffers the same fate but less explicably since she and her story could and should be equal to that of Spike. She's another strong warrior who isn't fighting up to strength and Buffy should be focusing on her a bit more...with the result that we should be seeing more of Willow fighting through her magic issues. himiko

2003-04-10 17:09:13-07:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (himiko@animail.net)


lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) wrote in message news:<20030410113237.08855.00000933@mb-fj.aol.com>... > How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who > was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to > revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > > The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the > background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But apparently > since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. > And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no I > don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her > intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an utter > moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? No on two counts: 1. If you still think Spike is Angel-lite or Angel-anything, you haven't been paying attention. 2. The reason Willow (who you totally forgot to mention), Xander, and Giles haven't gotten much of a story this season (and I agree with you on that) has nothing to do with Spike. The focus this season has been on Buffy, Buffy, and no one but Buffy. This is probably because it's her story in ME's opinion. The others exist only in terms of how they impact Buffy and/or how she sees them. Spike gets some time, enough for a decent story, because he is at the center of Buffy's world at the moment. She's young and trying to decide if she's in love with the guy...and if she should have any kind of relationship with him even if she is. Tell me you know any young woman of that age who doesn't focus a fair amount of attention on that sort of thing regardless of whatever else she may be doing. Wood gets more time than you'd think for a new character because he too is important to Buffy on several levels: romantic is milder than expected, but he's also a sign that a slayer can have a child, a link to her slayer heritage: simultaneously a cause for hope and a potential threat. Same with the SiTs. They are various aspects of younger Buffy and so get focused on now and then as needed to emphasize some aspect of Buffyness. Faith is returning for what she can reveal about slayage and a Buffy that could have been but isn't, one way or another. Buffy's dark shadow. Angel is returning, not for any plot purpose or he'd have brought more of the AI gang with him, but because of what he means to Buffy...probably her need for closure on a number of points. Giles actually is developing although not in a way Giles fans like...because that also has to do with him and Buffy and the whole breaking free of parental control thing. We don't see his personal story as much as I'd like and think would be appropriate. Xander and Dawn (who you also didn't mention) have no stories because Buffy takes them and their support for granted...and we see them through her eyes. I hope this turns out to be a mistake because I think it's a very unlikeable trait in Buffy, but it probably won't. Willow suffers the same fate but less explicably since she and her story could and should be equal to that of Spike. She's another strong warrior who isn't fighting up to strength and Buffy should be focusing on her a bit more...with the result that we should be seeing more of Willow fighting through her magic issues. himiko

2003-04-10 17:29:54+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) >Date: 4/10/2003 8:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030410113237.08855.00000933@mb-fj.aol.com> > >How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine >who >was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to >revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > >The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the >background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But >apparently >since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. >And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no >I >don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her >intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an >utter >moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? > Why is it that some people who don't care for Spike tend to think that the world revolves around him? Not enough screen time for Xander? It's because of Spike. [Never mind that lots of time has been devoted to Kennedy and Andrew who have been around for only one and two seasons, respectively. Never mind that Xander wasn't getting much quality screen time when Riley was the male lead, either.] Not as much humor lately? It's because Spike is too serious. Buffy being bitchy? She'd be sweet as pie if Spike weren't there. Giles acting weird? It's that darned Spike. When I was disliking Riley, I didn't blame his presence for Xander and Spike not getting enough screen time. I blamed the fact that the writers didn't feel Xander and Spike were important enough to give screen time to and a storyline to. Joss Whedon thought the fans took Xander too seriously in S2 so he made him a resident butt monkey, always destined to be a third apple in terms of getting quality stories. They usually give him one Xander-centric comedy ep per season but this year he didn't get one. Is that because of Spike? No. It's because they gave it to Andrew instead. Spike has gotten a storyline this year that more "plottie" than that of most of the other characters, but his character has not gotten an exceptional amount of screen time OR the respect of the writers. He's reduced to being Buffy's loyal eunuch and devoted guard/attack dog in order to punish him for Noxon and Whedon's decision to make him Buffy's attempted rapist. On the rare occasions when he's not His Master's Voice, he's exhibiting all the maturity of a 14 year old, puffing smoke in people's faces and saying neener neener my mommie loves me better than your mommy loved you. I don't get the Spike Envy. I really don't. At least Xander has gotten laid this season and has become a nicer, more mature person. He hasn't been punished for trying to rape Buffy when he was an evil demonic creature. If they gave him an actual storyline he, too, might merely be Buffy's stray pooch. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 17:29:54+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) >Date: 4/10/2003 8:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030410113237.08855.00000933@mb-fj.aol.com> > >How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine >who >was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to >revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > >The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the >background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But >apparently >since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. >And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no >I >don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her >intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an >utter >moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? > Why is it that some people who don't care for Spike tend to think that the world revolves around him? Not enough screen time for Xander? It's because of Spike. [Never mind that lots of time has been devoted to Kennedy and Andrew who have been around for only one and two seasons, respectively. Never mind that Xander wasn't getting much quality screen time when Riley was the male lead, either.] Not as much humor lately? It's because Spike is too serious. Buffy being bitchy? She'd be sweet as pie if Spike weren't there. Giles acting weird? It's that darned Spike. When I was disliking Riley, I didn't blame his presence for Xander and Spike not getting enough screen time. I blamed the fact that the writers didn't feel Xander and Spike were important enough to give screen time to and a storyline to. Joss Whedon thought the fans took Xander too seriously in S2 so he made him a resident butt monkey, always destined to be a third apple in terms of getting quality stories. They usually give him one Xander-centric comedy ep per season but this year he didn't get one. Is that because of Spike? No. It's because they gave it to Andrew instead. Spike has gotten a storyline this year that more "plottie" than that of most of the other characters, but his character has not gotten an exceptional amount of screen time OR the respect of the writers. He's reduced to being Buffy's loyal eunuch and devoted guard/attack dog in order to punish him for Noxon and Whedon's decision to make him Buffy's attempted rapist. On the rare occasions when he's not His Master's Voice, he's exhibiting all the maturity of a 14 year old, puffing smoke in people's faces and saying neener neener my mommie loves me better than your mommy loved you. I don't get the Spike Envy. I really don't. At least Xander has gotten laid this season and has become a nicer, more mature person. He hasn't been punished for trying to rape Buffy when he was an evil demonic creature. If they gave him an actual storyline he, too, might merely be Buffy's stray pooch. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 17:58:00+02:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Mister Binz <mrbinz@nospam.free>)


> How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who > was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to > revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. What baddie are you talking about ? The First Evil ? It first (^^) appeared in Amends, 10th episode in the 3rd season.

2003-04-10 17:58:00+02:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Mister Binz <mrbinz@nospam.free>)


> How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who > was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to > revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. What baddie are you talking about ? The First Evil ? It first (^^) appeared in Amends, 10th episode in the 3rd season.

2003-04-10 17:59:29+02:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Mister Binz <mrbinz@nospam.free>)


> Willow has lost all of her intelligence why that ?

2003-04-10 17:59:29+02:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Mister Binz <mrbinz@nospam.free>)


> Willow has lost all of her intelligence why that ?

2003-04-10 18:12:02+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


EGK wrote: > >It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me still >around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly I'm not talking about people like you. I'm talking about people who don't like Spike and who feel that the reason other characters don't get screen time, or are changed in personality, is that Spike is a regular. These people feel Spike is getting preferential treatment, and it's because of that, that Xander doesn't get a good storyline. Whereas I think the past makes it evident that if James Marsters had quit at the end of S5 and gone on to other things, Xander STILL wouldn't have had decent storylines in the past two years, because he didn't in S4 when Spike had little to do. They feel that Spike fans are better off than fans of other characters, and I feel it's not true. Spike has a storyline, but it's one that does no justice to his character. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 18:12:02+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


EGK wrote: > >It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me still >around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly I'm not talking about people like you. I'm talking about people who don't like Spike and who feel that the reason other characters don't get screen time, or are changed in personality, is that Spike is a regular. These people feel Spike is getting preferential treatment, and it's because of that, that Xander doesn't get a good storyline. Whereas I think the past makes it evident that if James Marsters had quit at the end of S5 and gone on to other things, Xander STILL wouldn't have had decent storylines in the past two years, because he didn't in S4 when Spike had little to do. They feel that Spike fans are better off than fans of other characters, and I feel it's not true. Spike has a storyline, but it's one that does no justice to his character. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 18:24:21+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... > It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me still > around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly > and the show has changed appreciably since making Spike a regular way back > in season 4. It has nothing to do with lines per episode or who's getting > laid. Treating Spike badly is still more treatment then anyone else has > gotten. It has to do with Spike becoming Buffy's defacto confident and > co-star and having his story of Buffy obsession/ redemption rival even her > continuing story. > > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. > For others of us, not so much. But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their former selves.

2003-04-10 18:24:21+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... > It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me still > around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly > and the show has changed appreciably since making Spike a regular way back > in season 4. It has nothing to do with lines per episode or who's getting > laid. Treating Spike badly is still more treatment then anyone else has > gotten. It has to do with Spike becoming Buffy's defacto confident and > co-star and having his story of Buffy obsession/ redemption rival even her > continuing story. > > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. > For others of us, not so much. But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their former selves.

2003-04-10 18:47:08+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (3D Master <3d.master@chello.nl>)


Rose wrote: >>Subject: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>From: lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) >>Date: 4/10/2003 8:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time >>Message-id: <20030410113237.08855.00000933@mb-fj.aol.com> >> >>How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine >>who >>was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to >>revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. >> >>The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the >>background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But >>apparently >>since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. >>And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no >>I >>don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her >>intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an >>utter >>moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? >> > > > Why is it that some people who don't care for Spike tend to think that the > world revolves around him? Not enough screen time for Xander? It's because of > Spike. [Never mind that lots of time has been devoted to Kennedy and Andrew > who have been around for only one and two seasons, respectively. Never mind > that Xander wasn't getting much quality screen time when Riley was the male > lead, either.] Not as much humor lately? It's because Spike is too serious. > Buffy being bitchy? She'd be sweet as pie if Spike weren't there. Giles acting > weird? It's that darned Spike. > > When I was disliking Riley, I didn't blame his presence for Xander and Spike > not getting enough screen time. I blamed the fact that the writers didn't feel > Xander and Spike were important enough to give screen time to and a storyline > to. Joss Whedon thought the fans took Xander too seriously in S2 so he made > him a resident butt monkey, always destined to be a third apple in terms of > getting quality stories. They usually give him one Xander-centric comedy ep per > season but this year he didn't get one. Is that because of Spike? No. It's > because they gave it to Andrew instead. > > Spike has gotten a storyline this year that more "plottie" than that of most of > the other characters, but his character has not gotten an exceptional amount of > screen time OR the respect of the writers. He's reduced to being Buffy's loyal > eunuch and devoted guard/attack dog in order to punish him for Noxon and > Whedon's decision to make him Buffy's attempted rapist. On the rare occasions > when he's not His Master's Voice, he's exhibiting all the maturity of a 14 year > old, puffing smoke in people's faces and saying neener neener my mommie loves > me better than your mommy loved you. > > I don't get the Spike Envy. I really don't. At least Xander has gotten laid > this season and has become a nicer, more mature person. He hasn't been punished > for trying to rape Buffy when he was an evil demonic creature. If they gave him > an actual storyline he, too, might merely be Buffy's stray pooch. Uhm, aren't you rather answering your own question? And it isn't envy, we just want the bastard gone, so the core group that it all started with can have a go. 3D Master -- ~~~~~ "I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!" - The Kurgan, Highlander "Give me some sugar, baby!" - Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness ~~~~~ Author of several stories, which can be found here: http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/

2003-04-10 18:47:08+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (3D Master <3d.master@chello.nl>)


Rose wrote: >>Subject: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>From: lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) >>Date: 4/10/2003 8:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time >>Message-id: <20030410113237.08855.00000933@mb-fj.aol.com> >> >>How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine >>who >>was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to >>revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. >> >>The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the >>background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But >>apparently >>since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. >>And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no >>I >>don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her >>intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an >>utter >>moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? >> > > > Why is it that some people who don't care for Spike tend to think that the > world revolves around him? Not enough screen time for Xander? It's because of > Spike. [Never mind that lots of time has been devoted to Kennedy and Andrew > who have been around for only one and two seasons, respectively. Never mind > that Xander wasn't getting much quality screen time when Riley was the male > lead, either.] Not as much humor lately? It's because Spike is too serious. > Buffy being bitchy? She'd be sweet as pie if Spike weren't there. Giles acting > weird? It's that darned Spike. > > When I was disliking Riley, I didn't blame his presence for Xander and Spike > not getting enough screen time. I blamed the fact that the writers didn't feel > Xander and Spike were important enough to give screen time to and a storyline > to. Joss Whedon thought the fans took Xander too seriously in S2 so he made > him a resident butt monkey, always destined to be a third apple in terms of > getting quality stories. They usually give him one Xander-centric comedy ep per > season but this year he didn't get one. Is that because of Spike? No. It's > because they gave it to Andrew instead. > > Spike has gotten a storyline this year that more "plottie" than that of most of > the other characters, but his character has not gotten an exceptional amount of > screen time OR the respect of the writers. He's reduced to being Buffy's loyal > eunuch and devoted guard/attack dog in order to punish him for Noxon and > Whedon's decision to make him Buffy's attempted rapist. On the rare occasions > when he's not His Master's Voice, he's exhibiting all the maturity of a 14 year > old, puffing smoke in people's faces and saying neener neener my mommie loves > me better than your mommy loved you. > > I don't get the Spike Envy. I really don't. At least Xander has gotten laid > this season and has become a nicer, more mature person. He hasn't been punished > for trying to rape Buffy when he was an evil demonic creature. If they gave him > an actual storyline he, too, might merely be Buffy's stray pooch. Uhm, aren't you rather answering your own question? And it isn't envy, we just want the bastard gone, so the core group that it all started with can have a go. 3D Master -- ~~~~~ "I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!" - The Kurgan, Highlander "Give me some sugar, baby!" - Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness ~~~~~ Author of several stories, which can be found here: http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/

2003-04-10 19:21:52+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: "Chris Zabel" alephnull@earthlink.net >Date: 4/10/2003 11:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > > >"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >> It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me >still >> around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly >> and the show has changed appreciably since making Spike a regular way back >> in season 4. It has nothing to do with lines per episode or who's getting >> laid. Treating Spike badly is still more treatment then anyone else has >> gotten. It has to do with Spike becoming Buffy's defacto confident and >> co-star and having his story of Buffy obsession/ redemption rival even her >> continuing story. >> >> For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from >> BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >> For others of us, not so much. > >But that's the problem. It hasn't been the >Spike Show for the past 2 years. Right. Spike was a mere Plot Device last year. He had no character development whatsoever, unless you consider sudden and unexplained fall from "nice guy for a vampire" to "skanky lounge lizard" between the musical and Smashed. This year, the show is All About the Plot with very little character development for anyone. Spike is getting some character development but he's not getting an inordinate amount of screen time... look at all of the eps in which he's only had cameos... nor is he even that important a part of the plot. At any rate, I don't know why people are getting their underwear bunched up over the "unfairness" of screen time and importance of a character who is NOT a new kid or a recent add-on, who has been around *for six seasons* -- almost as long as Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles -- when they should, imo, be saving their outrage for all the time devoted to newbies like Wood, Kennedy and Andrew. And for the importance and time given to Dawn two years ago. And the fact that Anya had a whole episode devoted to her in S7 when Xander didn't...even though she hasn't been around as long as Xander or Spike. And the fact that Angel, who hasn't been in the cast for four straight seasons, is going to take time from the regulars in the finale. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 19:21:52+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: "Chris Zabel" alephnull@earthlink.net >Date: 4/10/2003 11:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > > >"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >> It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me >still >> around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly >> and the show has changed appreciably since making Spike a regular way back >> in season 4. It has nothing to do with lines per episode or who's getting >> laid. Treating Spike badly is still more treatment then anyone else has >> gotten. It has to do with Spike becoming Buffy's defacto confident and >> co-star and having his story of Buffy obsession/ redemption rival even her >> continuing story. >> >> For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from >> BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >> For others of us, not so much. > >But that's the problem. It hasn't been the >Spike Show for the past 2 years. Right. Spike was a mere Plot Device last year. He had no character development whatsoever, unless you consider sudden and unexplained fall from "nice guy for a vampire" to "skanky lounge lizard" between the musical and Smashed. This year, the show is All About the Plot with very little character development for anyone. Spike is getting some character development but he's not getting an inordinate amount of screen time... look at all of the eps in which he's only had cameos... nor is he even that important a part of the plot. At any rate, I don't know why people are getting their underwear bunched up over the "unfairness" of screen time and importance of a character who is NOT a new kid or a recent add-on, who has been around *for six seasons* -- almost as long as Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles -- when they should, imo, be saving their outrage for all the time devoted to newbies like Wood, Kennedy and Andrew. And for the importance and time given to Dawn two years ago. And the fact that Anya had a whole episode devoted to her in S7 when Xander didn't...even though she hasn't been around as long as Xander or Spike. And the fact that Angel, who hasn't been in the cast for four straight seasons, is going to take time from the regulars in the finale. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 19:30:35+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: EGK me@privacy.net >Date: 4/10/2003 11:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <qdeb9vgelq9o2u4jsb1onhtgnn5sv6uca3@4ax.com> > >On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:24:21 GMT, "Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> >wrote: > >> >>"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >>> It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me >>still >>> around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly >>> and the show has changed appreciably since making Spike a regular way back >>> in season 4. It has nothing to do with lines per episode or who's getting >>> laid. Treating Spike badly is still more treatment then anyone else has >>> gotten. It has to do with Spike becoming Buffy's defacto confident and >>> co-star and having his story of Buffy obsession/ redemption rival even her >>> continuing story. >>> >>> For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from >>> BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >>> For others of us, not so much. >> >>But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. >>I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it >>would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: >>The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of >>Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this >>year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >>left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their >>former selves. > >I disagree it's not the Spike Show. Even when Spike isn't on-screen, way >too much of the plots are dependent on what's going on with him. Season 6 >Buffy was all about her co-dependency on Spike and Spike's attempts to drag >Buffy away from her friends. Oh man, is THAT the tail wagging the dog. Spike was a symptom, a drug if you will. He was there to illuminate how sick Buffy was. It wasn't "about" her being dependent on him at all. It was about her being a sick pup in general. >Spike even replaced Giles last year as the >only person Buffy could talk to It's really not ME's fault that Anthony Stewart Head wanted to go back to England. And since when has Giles been the only person Buffy could talk to? That's been Willow's role. She lost the role of confidant but she was such a major force in S6 that I don't think that's a sticking point. >We had Spike and Buffy sex and beatings, >Spike's rape attempt, Spike's soul quest. Only Willow had a story to rival >Spike and that story sucked the big one. > Willow's story was far more important than Spike's. She was the co-lead of the season, Spike was merely the most important "male". He was a plot device, Willow had a storyline all her own which culminated in her becoming the Big Bad. Willow was brought low and made bad in S6. So was Spike, in that all of his progress in S5 and early S6 was flushed down the toilet in Smashed. >This season, a good portion of the plot >has still revolved around Spike. Spike is a side issue. The plot revolves around Firstie and Buffy's attempt to train the SITs and fight Firstie. Spike adjusting to his soul and Buffy's relationship to him is a subplot. Yes, Spike is the only regular character besides Buffy with a real subplot (the other characters with subplots are Wood and Andrew), but the season does not revolve around him, it revolves around Buffy, Firstie and the SITs. Spike is a sideshow freak, as predicted in Restless. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 19:30:35+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: EGK me@privacy.net >Date: 4/10/2003 11:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <qdeb9vgelq9o2u4jsb1onhtgnn5sv6uca3@4ax.com> > >On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:24:21 GMT, "Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> >wrote: > >> >>"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >>> It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me >>still >>> around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly >>> and the show has changed appreciably since making Spike a regular way back >>> in season 4. It has nothing to do with lines per episode or who's getting >>> laid. Treating Spike badly is still more treatment then anyone else has >>> gotten. It has to do with Spike becoming Buffy's defacto confident and >>> co-star and having his story of Buffy obsession/ redemption rival even her >>> continuing story. >>> >>> For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from >>> BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >>> For others of us, not so much. >> >>But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. >>I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it >>would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: >>The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of >>Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this >>year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >>left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their >>former selves. > >I disagree it's not the Spike Show. Even when Spike isn't on-screen, way >too much of the plots are dependent on what's going on with him. Season 6 >Buffy was all about her co-dependency on Spike and Spike's attempts to drag >Buffy away from her friends. Oh man, is THAT the tail wagging the dog. Spike was a symptom, a drug if you will. He was there to illuminate how sick Buffy was. It wasn't "about" her being dependent on him at all. It was about her being a sick pup in general. >Spike even replaced Giles last year as the >only person Buffy could talk to It's really not ME's fault that Anthony Stewart Head wanted to go back to England. And since when has Giles been the only person Buffy could talk to? That's been Willow's role. She lost the role of confidant but she was such a major force in S6 that I don't think that's a sticking point. >We had Spike and Buffy sex and beatings, >Spike's rape attempt, Spike's soul quest. Only Willow had a story to rival >Spike and that story sucked the big one. > Willow's story was far more important than Spike's. She was the co-lead of the season, Spike was merely the most important "male". He was a plot device, Willow had a storyline all her own which culminated in her becoming the Big Bad. Willow was brought low and made bad in S6. So was Spike, in that all of his progress in S5 and early S6 was flushed down the toilet in Smashed. >This season, a good portion of the plot >has still revolved around Spike. Spike is a side issue. The plot revolves around Firstie and Buffy's attempt to train the SITs and fight Firstie. Spike adjusting to his soul and Buffy's relationship to him is a subplot. Yes, Spike is the only regular character besides Buffy with a real subplot (the other characters with subplots are Wood and Andrew), but the season does not revolve around him, it revolves around Buffy, Firstie and the SITs. Spike is a sideshow freak, as predicted in Restless. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 19:38:43-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 10 Apr 2003 14:58:17 -0700, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: >"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > >> "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >> news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... > > >> > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from >> > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >> > For others of us, not so much. >> >> But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. >> I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it >> would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: >> The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of >> Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this >> year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >> left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their >> former selves. > >I think there's an important point in this paragraph. > >I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around >Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. >However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't >think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. > >Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season >5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting >character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to >the criticism. > >But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME. I think that pretty much goes without saying, Ian. Most of us (notice I didn't say all) realize Spike is a fictional character and whatever he does is at the whim of the writers. :) I'm with Ken47. I'll probably get the first 3 seasons on DVD but frankly, I don't really care about any of the others where I'd want to pay money for it. The way this and Angel seem to be going now, it's also made me leery of following any other series from team Whedon. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-10 19:38:43-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 10 Apr 2003 14:58:17 -0700, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: >"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > >> "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >> news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... > > >> > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from >> > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >> > For others of us, not so much. >> >> But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. >> I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it >> would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: >> The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of >> Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this >> year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >> left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their >> former selves. > >I think there's an important point in this paragraph. > >I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around >Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. >However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't >think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. > >Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season >5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting >character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to >the criticism. > >But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME. I think that pretty much goes without saying, Ian. Most of us (notice I didn't say all) realize Spike is a fictional character and whatever he does is at the whim of the writers. :) I'm with Ken47. I'll probably get the first 3 seasons on DVD but frankly, I don't really care about any of the others where I'd want to pay money for it. The way this and Angel seem to be going now, it's also made me leery of following any other series from team Whedon. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-10 19:43:33+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: EGK me@privacy.net >Date: 4/10/2003 11:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <mndb9v068j01qkg5aqgqbk8gei9egiatl5@4ax.com> > >On 10 Apr 2003 18:12:02 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > >>EGK wrote: >> >>> >>>It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me >still >>>around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly >> >>I'm not talking about people like you. I'm talking about people who don't >like >>Spike and who feel that the reason other characters don't get screen time, >or >>are changed in personality, is that Spike is a regular. > >That's just it. You get very defensive and >think everyone is a Spike hater. Of course everyone isn't a Spike hater. You are not a Spike hater, so much as you are more of a hater of Spike's character development. However, I've read this lady's posts before, and she strikes me as someone who doesn't like Spike at all. I do think you greatly overattribute the show's problems to Spike's presence, but that is a bit of a different issue. You come from a place of a former Spike fan, not a B/A shipper who sees Spike as a threat to that, or someone who otherwise just doesn't want Spike around. BTW there is nothing wrong with being in either one of those categories. But I do think people in those categories, like you, tend to overblow Spike's importance. And in this instance, I'm not defensive. I just think that the "Spike is the problem" perspective is as wrong as the "Riley is the problem" theory was in Season 4. I was always saying that in spite of how much I disliked Riley, he wasn't the problem with S4, he was a symptom of the problem with S4. >I think there are a lot more fans like me who used to say he was one of >their favorite characters until he was ruined. At the same time, they >focused way too much of the show around him. > >>They feel that Spike fans are better off than fans of other characters, and >I >>feel it's not true. Spike has a storyline, but it's one that does no >justice >>to his character. > >Lots of the Spike fans seem to disagree with you and are very happy the show >chose to focus much more attention on him. > Actually, as someone who hangs out where a great many Spike fans are, they do not all tend to disagree with me as to his screen time and importance. Most of them do disagree with me re his character development this season, which I don't like but most of them do like. Some of them got pretty mad at me after my Lies commentary. >:0 >I think you would have been more then happy to have it be The Spike Show >too. If the Spike Show could have been done well, with great character development for Spike and interesting support work for the others, sure. If The Spike Show would have made use of the Spike development of S6 or S7, then yuck. I've always maintained that the best use of Spike would be one Spike-centric ep every 4-6 weeks, and ensemble work or cameos in the rest of the eps. Leave 'em wanting more, I say. I don't have a problem with Spike not getting a lot of screen time, I have a problem with the crappy way he's been used in the past year. You might notice that earlier this season, when Spike got little screen time, I was not one of those complaining. I thought the torture scenes were stupid and the "one too many basement scenes" got tedious, but that is a question of what they did with Spike's scenes, not how many of them there were. Two of the my favorite eps this season, Get it Done and Storyteller, used Spike as an ensemble player, not as a lead. Lies used Spike as a lead and I hated it. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 19:43:33+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: EGK me@privacy.net >Date: 4/10/2003 11:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <mndb9v068j01qkg5aqgqbk8gei9egiatl5@4ax.com> > >On 10 Apr 2003 18:12:02 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > >>EGK wrote: >> >>> >>>It's nothing to do with Sipke envy. There are a lot of people like me >still >>>around who used to love his character but feel he was best used sparingly >> >>I'm not talking about people like you. I'm talking about people who don't >like >>Spike and who feel that the reason other characters don't get screen time, >or >>are changed in personality, is that Spike is a regular. > >That's just it. You get very defensive and >think everyone is a Spike hater. Of course everyone isn't a Spike hater. You are not a Spike hater, so much as you are more of a hater of Spike's character development. However, I've read this lady's posts before, and she strikes me as someone who doesn't like Spike at all. I do think you greatly overattribute the show's problems to Spike's presence, but that is a bit of a different issue. You come from a place of a former Spike fan, not a B/A shipper who sees Spike as a threat to that, or someone who otherwise just doesn't want Spike around. BTW there is nothing wrong with being in either one of those categories. But I do think people in those categories, like you, tend to overblow Spike's importance. And in this instance, I'm not defensive. I just think that the "Spike is the problem" perspective is as wrong as the "Riley is the problem" theory was in Season 4. I was always saying that in spite of how much I disliked Riley, he wasn't the problem with S4, he was a symptom of the problem with S4. >I think there are a lot more fans like me who used to say he was one of >their favorite characters until he was ruined. At the same time, they >focused way too much of the show around him. > >>They feel that Spike fans are better off than fans of other characters, and >I >>feel it's not true. Spike has a storyline, but it's one that does no >justice >>to his character. > >Lots of the Spike fans seem to disagree with you and are very happy the show >chose to focus much more attention on him. > Actually, as someone who hangs out where a great many Spike fans are, they do not all tend to disagree with me as to his screen time and importance. Most of them do disagree with me re his character development this season, which I don't like but most of them do like. Some of them got pretty mad at me after my Lies commentary. >:0 >I think you would have been more then happy to have it be The Spike Show >too. If the Spike Show could have been done well, with great character development for Spike and interesting support work for the others, sure. If The Spike Show would have made use of the Spike development of S6 or S7, then yuck. I've always maintained that the best use of Spike would be one Spike-centric ep every 4-6 weeks, and ensemble work or cameos in the rest of the eps. Leave 'em wanting more, I say. I don't have a problem with Spike not getting a lot of screen time, I have a problem with the crappy way he's been used in the past year. You might notice that earlier this season, when Spike got little screen time, I was not one of those complaining. I thought the torture scenes were stupid and the "one too many basement scenes" got tedious, but that is a question of what they did with Spike's scenes, not how many of them there were. Two of the my favorite eps this season, Get it Done and Storyteller, used Spike as an ensemble player, not as a lead. Lies used Spike as a lead and I hated it. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 20:22:39-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:qdeb9vgelq9o2u4jsb1onhtgnn5sv6uca3@4ax.com... > On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:24:21 GMT, "Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> > wrote: > > > > >"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message > >news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... > > I disagree it's not the Spike Show. Even when Spike isn't on-screen, way > too much of the plots are dependent on what's going on with him. Season 6 > Buffy was all about her co-dependency on Spike and Spike's attempts to drag > Buffy away from her friends. Spike even replaced Giles last year as the > only person Buffy could talk to We had Spike and Buffy sex and beatings, > Spike's rape attempt, Spike's soul quest. Only Willow had a story to rival > Spike and that story sucked the big one. > > This season, a good portion of the plot has still revolved around Spike. > Back from his soul quest. Is insane Spike still killing? The FE captures > and tortures Spike. Buffy must rescue Spike. Buffy must get the chip out > of Spike. Does the FE still control Spike? Spike is Buffy's best warrior. > Giles doesn't trust Spike. Spike killed Nikki and Wood wants to kill > Spike. Buffy protects Spike. > I'd like to play Devil's advocate here, for a minute. Satan has the night off and he's asked me to fill in. Spike *is* a major part of the show, but a different take on your questions shows that he illustrates, or attempts to illustrate, much about the plot and the Buffyverse. Change your questions to Why is Spike insane? Is it because of the soul? Or the trigger? Is he still insane? Who planted that trigger, why, and how? Was it Lurky? If it was Lurky this story would illustrate the concept of free will vs controlled by evil very well. Spike made a good choice, he wanted to be different, to be better. that was free will. An agent of evil uses his desire to be good to make him even more an agent of evil than he was to start with. Now Spike is struggling against two evil forces, his own, and the one FE implanted. And his soul, which was supposed to be the "only" thing that could possibly ever make him be good (see L.U. for the definitive report), is used to make him not only more evil, but mindlessly evil. It has taken away his free will. Now we see Spike struggling, still, to be good despite his double evil handicap. And FE has just about had it with trying to turn this guy back to the dark side with very little avail. Then the question becomes, why is FE so interested in Spike? Spike really isn't that fascinating. I mean he's okay, but....and the answer is, it must be, that Spike is another souled vampire in the picture and whatever is supposed to happen that will allow FE to do what it wants only requires one souled vampire. Spike is a wild card and it's because of his free will. Even if FE has been playing it's controlling cards to the hilt these past seven seasons the free will actions of one evil, supposedly irredeemable, souless, thing, has thrown all of FE's best laid plans in the air. > > > -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-10 20:22:39-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:qdeb9vgelq9o2u4jsb1onhtgnn5sv6uca3@4ax.com... > On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:24:21 GMT, "Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> > wrote: > > > > >"EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message > >news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... > > I disagree it's not the Spike Show. Even when Spike isn't on-screen, way > too much of the plots are dependent on what's going on with him. Season 6 > Buffy was all about her co-dependency on Spike and Spike's attempts to drag > Buffy away from her friends. Spike even replaced Giles last year as the > only person Buffy could talk to We had Spike and Buffy sex and beatings, > Spike's rape attempt, Spike's soul quest. Only Willow had a story to rival > Spike and that story sucked the big one. > > This season, a good portion of the plot has still revolved around Spike. > Back from his soul quest. Is insane Spike still killing? The FE captures > and tortures Spike. Buffy must rescue Spike. Buffy must get the chip out > of Spike. Does the FE still control Spike? Spike is Buffy's best warrior. > Giles doesn't trust Spike. Spike killed Nikki and Wood wants to kill > Spike. Buffy protects Spike. > I'd like to play Devil's advocate here, for a minute. Satan has the night off and he's asked me to fill in. Spike *is* a major part of the show, but a different take on your questions shows that he illustrates, or attempts to illustrate, much about the plot and the Buffyverse. Change your questions to Why is Spike insane? Is it because of the soul? Or the trigger? Is he still insane? Who planted that trigger, why, and how? Was it Lurky? If it was Lurky this story would illustrate the concept of free will vs controlled by evil very well. Spike made a good choice, he wanted to be different, to be better. that was free will. An agent of evil uses his desire to be good to make him even more an agent of evil than he was to start with. Now Spike is struggling against two evil forces, his own, and the one FE implanted. And his soul, which was supposed to be the "only" thing that could possibly ever make him be good (see L.U. for the definitive report), is used to make him not only more evil, but mindlessly evil. It has taken away his free will. Now we see Spike struggling, still, to be good despite his double evil handicap. And FE has just about had it with trying to turn this guy back to the dark side with very little avail. Then the question becomes, why is FE so interested in Spike? Spike really isn't that fascinating. I mean he's okay, but....and the answer is, it must be, that Spike is another souled vampire in the picture and whatever is supposed to happen that will allow FE to do what it wants only requires one souled vampire. Spike is a wild card and it's because of his free will. Even if FE has been playing it's controlling cards to the hilt these past seven seasons the free will actions of one evil, supposedly irredeemable, souless, thing, has thrown all of FE's best laid plans in the air. > > > -- Shannon Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her." Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"

2003-04-10 20:51:34-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com>)


lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) wrote: >How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who >was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to >revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > >The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the >background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But apparently >since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. >And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no I >don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her >intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an utter >moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? > >This show used to be so amazing, you can't seriously tell me Season 6 [and >Season 7 whichis turning out to be much worse] could hold a candle to 1-5. I >find myself unable to watch whole episodes. I want to be angry and bitter, but >mostly I just feel really sad. Amen. Ken

2003-04-10 20:51:34-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (KenM47 <KenM47@ix.netcom.com>)


lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) wrote: >How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who >was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to >revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > >The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the >background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But apparently >since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. >And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no I >don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her >intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an utter >moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? > >This show used to be so amazing, you can't seriously tell me Season 6 [and >Season 7 whichis turning out to be much worse] could hold a candle to 1-5. I >find myself unable to watch whole episodes. I want to be angry and bitter, but >mostly I just feel really sad. Amen. Ken

2003-04-10 21:35:24+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


3d wrote: > >Uhm, aren't you rather answering your >own question? No. > And it isn't envy, >we just want the bastard gone, And people say no one hates Spike.... >so the core group that it all started >with can have a go. That's what I mean by Spike-envy. You think that the way for the core group to have a go is if Spike goes. If ME doesn't want to focus on the core group ME isn't going to focus on the core group whether Spike is there or not. The fact that ME devoted a whole episode to Andrew proves that the issue isn't Spike, the issue is ME's apparent boredom with the core group. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 21:35:24+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


3d wrote: > >Uhm, aren't you rather answering your >own question? No. > And it isn't envy, >we just want the bastard gone, And people say no one hates Spike.... >so the core group that it all started >with can have a go. That's what I mean by Spike-envy. You think that the way for the core group to have a go is if Spike goes. If ME doesn't want to focus on the core group ME isn't going to focus on the core group whether Spike is there or not. The fact that ME devoted a whole episode to Andrew proves that the issue isn't Spike, the issue is ME's apparent boredom with the core group. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-10 22:50:52+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (sirius259@aol.comeleon)


Roaz, the original poster referred to Spike in ONE sentence, and you write a novel-length one defending him, even when it's clear that she's referring to the writers' decisions regaring Spike and not the character itself. It's very tiring to read this same rant over and over every time you post. It's not a crime to dislike Spike, or blame the character/writing of him, or to not see things exactly the same as you.

2003-04-10 22:50:52+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (sirius259@aol.comeleon)


Roaz, the original poster referred to Spike in ONE sentence, and you write a novel-length one defending him, even when it's clear that she's referring to the writers' decisions regaring Spike and not the character itself. It's very tiring to read this same rant over and over every time you post. It's not a crime to dislike Spike, or blame the character/writing of him, or to not see things exactly the same as you.

2003-04-10 23:20:38+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (3D Master <3d.master@chello.nl>)


Rose wrote: > 3d wrote: > > >>Uhm, aren't you rather answering your >own question? > > > No. All right then, I'll explain it, you're a Spike fan, and you are woeing around about Spike is bad this, and Spike is bad in that way, and why couldn't they have done it differently. For people who don't like Spike to begin with, (or loved the character, and have begun to hate the bastard especially this last season, with Buffy going, oh, but he's got a soul now, he's strongest fighter we've got, crap, like me) only makes them want to see him staked even more. >>And it isn't envy, >>we just want the bastard gone, > > > And people say no one hates Spike... Yeah, most notably ME seem to believe that. 'Hey, as long as we show him shirtless and show of his bony ass and sheekbones, nobody will hate the evil murdering rapist.' They should listen more to the average fan, not the average Spike lover. >>so the core group that it all started >>with can have a go. > > > That's what I mean by Spike-envy. You think that the way for the core group to > have a go is if Spike goes. If ME doesn't want to focus on the core group ME > isn't going to focus on the core group whether Spike is there or not. The fact > that ME devoted a whole episode to Andrew proves that the issue isn't Spike, > the issue is ME's apparent boredom with the core group. ME should focus on the core group, but instead they stuff shirtless Spike, the blond wonder vamp down our throats, have Buffy go all googoo eyed of her attempted rapist, neglect all of her friends because of him, willing to sacrifice all of those lives (which incidentily have been saving her life since she got to sunnydale, and protecting the world right along side her, are far more powerful and far more valuable than mister 'I feel so bad about my mommy I turn into a murdering beast when I hear her song' gee, I really hope for Buffy's sake he doesn't have father issues also) except captain Peroxide because 'he's the most valuable fighter'. Yeah, real nice guy, reall valuable also, drinking blood, not caring a damn about whether he killed someone's mother once, and parading around in that mother's coat like a lovely trophy, not too mention the FE's string puppet. Ooh, but Buffy wuvs the cheekbones. Puke. Get it yet? We don't envy him, we hate his guts. 3D Master -- ~~~~~ "I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!" - The Kurgan, Highlander "Give me some sugar, baby!" - Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness ~~~~~ Author of several stories, which can be found here: http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/

2003-04-10 23:20:38+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (3D Master <3d.master@chello.nl>)


Rose wrote: > 3d wrote: > > >>Uhm, aren't you rather answering your >own question? > > > No. All right then, I'll explain it, you're a Spike fan, and you are woeing around about Spike is bad this, and Spike is bad in that way, and why couldn't they have done it differently. For people who don't like Spike to begin with, (or loved the character, and have begun to hate the bastard especially this last season, with Buffy going, oh, but he's got a soul now, he's strongest fighter we've got, crap, like me) only makes them want to see him staked even more. >>And it isn't envy, >>we just want the bastard gone, > > > And people say no one hates Spike... Yeah, most notably ME seem to believe that. 'Hey, as long as we show him shirtless and show of his bony ass and sheekbones, nobody will hate the evil murdering rapist.' They should listen more to the average fan, not the average Spike lover. >>so the core group that it all started >>with can have a go. > > > That's what I mean by Spike-envy. You think that the way for the core group to > have a go is if Spike goes. If ME doesn't want to focus on the core group ME > isn't going to focus on the core group whether Spike is there or not. The fact > that ME devoted a whole episode to Andrew proves that the issue isn't Spike, > the issue is ME's apparent boredom with the core group. ME should focus on the core group, but instead they stuff shirtless Spike, the blond wonder vamp down our throats, have Buffy go all googoo eyed of her attempted rapist, neglect all of her friends because of him, willing to sacrifice all of those lives (which incidentily have been saving her life since she got to sunnydale, and protecting the world right along side her, are far more powerful and far more valuable than mister 'I feel so bad about my mommy I turn into a murdering beast when I hear her song' gee, I really hope for Buffy's sake he doesn't have father issues also) except captain Peroxide because 'he's the most valuable fighter'. Yeah, real nice guy, reall valuable also, drinking blood, not caring a damn about whether he killed someone's mother once, and parading around in that mother's coat like a lovely trophy, not too mention the FE's string puppet. Ooh, but Buffy wuvs the cheekbones. Puke. Get it yet? We don't envy him, we hate his guts. 3D Master -- ~~~~~ "I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!" - The Kurgan, Highlander "Give me some sugar, baby!" - Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness ~~~~~ Author of several stories, which can be found here: http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/

2003-04-11 03:31:59+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Shorty <notrealshorty@hotmail.com>)


On 10 Apr 2003 15:32:37 GMT, lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) wrote: >How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who >was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to >revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > >The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the >background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But apparently >since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. >And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no I >don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her >intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an utter >moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? > >This show used to be so amazing, you can't seriously tell me Season 6 [and >Season 7 whichis turning out to be much worse] could hold a candle to 1-5. I >find myself unable to watch whole episodes. I want to be angry and bitter, but >mostly I just feel really sad. I agree completely. I'm not sure what happened but somewhere near the end of season 5 it just seemed like EVERYBODY stopped trying. The writing in season sux and seven has been far below the standards this show has set for itself in the past. In fact, I would go so far as to say the writing is no better than you would find on Dawon's Creek, Charmed, or Stargate Sg-1 nowadays. The last two year have succeeded in completely destroying all the characters I had grown to love. Instead of spending their very last season focusing on the characters we have been watching for 6 years they give us Andrew (cause they like him), Kennedy, Wood, and 15 SHITS. Buffy has turned from a lighthearted girl with a job no one should have to shoulder into a bitch. You said it with Xander. Andrew took his comedy role. Dawn is the normal character with no super powers. He doesnt seem to want to protect or care for Buffy much anymore. But he fixes a mean window I guess. Spike I liked much more when he received much less screen time. As it is now he is on nearly as much as Buffy herself. Willow....*sigh* where to begin. That sweet wallflower I loved is gone. She was buried when Buffy died. I can understand Willow coming out of her shell as she grew older, but instead the show turned her into a selfish, weak willed, sniveling bitch. She had the most complex and interesting character weaknesses coming into season 6: jealousy of Buffy, hatred of always being the sidekick, desire to have everything go the way she wants, and fear of being alone. Instead of exploring her dark side they gave her an afternoon special to deal with and hinted at her problems in the last two episodes. Then after all that, the come out and say she is gay because ME received some hate mail from a couple of lesbian organizations who only started watching the 'Willow and Tara' show in season 4. The sig says it all.... Shorty ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I used to believe these were real people -- well, not real people, because I'm eminently sane, but I believed that they could have been people I knew. But now? There's no interior life there. I don't get the sense that they think or feel really anything other than what the writers decide they should think or feel to get them from point A to point B, no matter how contradictory those thoughts and feelings are to the thoughts and feelings they had last week, last month, or last year." - http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=12&story=4599

2003-04-11 03:31:59+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Shorty <notrealshorty@hotmail.com>)


On 10 Apr 2003 15:32:37 GMT, lyraangelica@aol.com (Lyra Angelica) wrote: >How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who >was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to >revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > >The characters who have been there for seven years are relegated to the >background now. And sadly, THOSE are the people I care about. But apparently >since Xander's a sucessful window fixer, he only needs one line per episode. >And they just threw the Giles/Buffy relationship right out the window-and no I >don't trust ME to repair it somewhat decently. Willow has lost al of her >intelligence and Buffy is completely unlikeable now, she's turned into an utter >moron actually. All of this to prop up Angel-lite? > >This show used to be so amazing, you can't seriously tell me Season 6 [and >Season 7 whichis turning out to be much worse] could hold a candle to 1-5. I >find myself unable to watch whole episodes. I want to be angry and bitter, but >mostly I just feel really sad. I agree completely. I'm not sure what happened but somewhere near the end of season 5 it just seemed like EVERYBODY stopped trying. The writing in season sux and seven has been far below the standards this show has set for itself in the past. In fact, I would go so far as to say the writing is no better than you would find on Dawon's Creek, Charmed, or Stargate Sg-1 nowadays. The last two year have succeeded in completely destroying all the characters I had grown to love. Instead of spending their very last season focusing on the characters we have been watching for 6 years they give us Andrew (cause they like him), Kennedy, Wood, and 15 SHITS. Buffy has turned from a lighthearted girl with a job no one should have to shoulder into a bitch. You said it with Xander. Andrew took his comedy role. Dawn is the normal character with no super powers. He doesnt seem to want to protect or care for Buffy much anymore. But he fixes a mean window I guess. Spike I liked much more when he received much less screen time. As it is now he is on nearly as much as Buffy herself. Willow....*sigh* where to begin. That sweet wallflower I loved is gone. She was buried when Buffy died. I can understand Willow coming out of her shell as she grew older, but instead the show turned her into a selfish, weak willed, sniveling bitch. She had the most complex and interesting character weaknesses coming into season 6: jealousy of Buffy, hatred of always being the sidekick, desire to have everything go the way she wants, and fear of being alone. Instead of exploring her dark side they gave her an afternoon special to deal with and hinted at her problems in the last two episodes. Then after all that, the come out and say she is gay because ME received some hate mail from a couple of lesbian organizations who only started watching the 'Willow and Tara' show in season 4. The sig says it all.... Shorty ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I used to believe these were real people -- well, not real people, because I'm eminently sane, but I believed that they could have been people I knew. But now? There's no interior life there. I don't get the sense that they think or feel really anything other than what the writers decide they should think or feel to get them from point A to point B, no matter how contradictory those thoughts and feelings are to the thoughts and feelings they had last week, last month, or last year." - http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=12&story=4599

2003-04-11 03:53:24-07:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<cvvb9v0omtqr1egg56mkf84h74v1vs21lb@4ax.com>... > On 10 Apr 2003 14:58:17 -0700, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: > > >"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > > > >> "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message > >> news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... > > > > > >> > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from > >> > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. > >> > For others of us, not so much. > >> > >> But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. > >> I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it > >> would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: > >> The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of > >> Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this > >> year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character > >> left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their > >> former selves. > > > >I think there's an important point in this paragraph. > > > >I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around > >Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. > >However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't > >think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. > > > >Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season > >5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting > >character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to > >the criticism. > > > >But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME. > > I think that pretty much goes without saying, Ian. Sometimes I wonder.

2003-04-11 03:53:24-07:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<cvvb9v0omtqr1egg56mkf84h74v1vs21lb@4ax.com>... > On 10 Apr 2003 14:58:17 -0700, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: > > >"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > > > >> "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message > >> news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... > > > > > >> > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed from > >> > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. > >> > For others of us, not so much. > >> > >> But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 years. > >> I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it > >> would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got "Scoobies: > >> The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade of > >> Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this > >> year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character > >> left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of their > >> former selves. > > > >I think there's an important point in this paragraph. > > > >I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around > >Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. > >However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't > >think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. > > > >Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season > >5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting > >character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to > >the criticism. > > > >But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME. > > I think that pretty much goes without saying, Ian. Sometimes I wonder.

2003-04-11 06:41:27+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, himiko@animail.net wrote in article <c7902983.0304101609.60e62c58@posting.google.com>... [elided great character analyses] > > Willow suffers the same fate but less explicably since she and her > story could and should be equal to that of Spike. She's another > strong warrior who isn't fighting up to strength and Buffy should be > focusing on her a bit more...with the result that we should be seeing > more of Willow fighting through her magic issues. > > himiko > Willow still has an attachment to black magicks, or perhaps it is the other way around, and the reason we have not explored her much is that she is being held in reserve. There is still great darkness and rage contained within her and I expect the First Evil to tap those powers. My speculation is that she will be the medium through which the Hellmouth will be reopened. At this time I cannot guess who will be the First Evil's rook, knight, or bishop, but I bet Willow will play the queen in the end game. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-04-11 06:41:27+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, himiko@animail.net wrote in article <c7902983.0304101609.60e62c58@posting.google.com>... [elided great character analyses] > > Willow suffers the same fate but less explicably since she and her > story could and should be equal to that of Spike. She's another > strong warrior who isn't fighting up to strength and Buffy should be > focusing on her a bit more...with the result that we should be seeing > more of Willow fighting through her magic issues. > > himiko > Willow still has an attachment to black magicks, or perhaps it is the other way around, and the reason we have not explored her much is that she is being held in reserve. There is still great darkness and rage contained within her and I expect the First Evil to tap those powers. My speculation is that she will be the medium through which the Hellmouth will be reopened. At this time I cannot guess who will be the First Evil's rook, knight, or bishop, but I bet Willow will play the queen in the end game. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-04-11 07:05:28+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: sirius259@aol.comeleon (Sirius) >Date: 4/10/2003 3:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030410185052.05481.00001092@mb-fo.aol.com> > >Roaz, the original poster referred to Spike in ONE sentence, and you write a >novel-length one defending him, Actually I wasn't defending Spike, I was refuting a theory. But thanks for comparing my post to a novel. :) Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 07:05:28+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: sirius259@aol.comeleon (Sirius) >Date: 4/10/2003 3:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030410185052.05481.00001092@mb-fo.aol.com> > >Roaz, the original poster referred to Spike in ONE sentence, and you write a >novel-length one defending him, Actually I wasn't defending Spike, I was refuting a theory. But thanks for comparing my post to a novel. :) Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 07:06:53+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


3d wrote: > >Get it yet? We don't envy him, we hate his guts. > I think you just wish you were as cute as he is. :) :) Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 07:06:53+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


3d wrote: > >Get it yet? We don't envy him, we hate his guts. > I think you just wish you were as cute as he is. :) :) Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 08:49:16-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 11 Apr 2003 11:55:47 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>From: igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) >>Date: 4/11/2003 3:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time >>Message-id: <5aa58763.0304102338.15c11586@posting.google.com> >> >>EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>news:<cvvb9v0omtqr1egg56mkf84h74v1vs21lb@4ax.com>... >> >>> On 10 Apr 2003 14:58:17 -0700, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: >>> >>> >"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message >>news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... >>> > >>> >> "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>> >> news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >>> > >>> > >>> >> > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed >>from >>> >> > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >>> >> > For others of us, not so much. >>> >> >>> >> But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 >>years. >>> >> I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it >>> >> would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got >>"Scoobies: >>> >> The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade >>of >>> >> Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this >>> >> year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >>> >> left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of >>their >>> >> former selves. >>> > >>> >I think there's an important point in this paragraph. >>> > >>> >I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around >>> >Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. >>> >However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't >>> >think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. >>> > >>> >Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season >>> >5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting >>> >character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to >>> >the criticism. >>> > >>> >But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME. >>> >>> I think that pretty much goes without saying, Ian. >> >>Sometimes I wonder. >> > >Me too. Well, I did add in my post that I said most (notice I didn't say all) people realize Spike is just a character and not real. Obviously I'm not the only one thinking that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-11 08:49:16-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 11 Apr 2003 11:55:47 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>From: igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) >>Date: 4/11/2003 3:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time >>Message-id: <5aa58763.0304102338.15c11586@posting.google.com> >> >>EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>news:<cvvb9v0omtqr1egg56mkf84h74v1vs21lb@4ax.com>... >> >>> On 10 Apr 2003 14:58:17 -0700, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: >>> >>> >"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message >>news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... >>> > >>> >> "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>> >> news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >>> > >>> > >>> >> > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed >>from >>> >> > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >>> >> > For others of us, not so much. >>> >> >>> >> But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 >>years. >>> >> I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it >>> >> would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got >>"Scoobies: >>> >> The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade >>of >>> >> Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this >>> >> year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >>> >> left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of >>their >>> >> former selves. >>> > >>> >I think there's an important point in this paragraph. >>> > >>> >I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around >>> >Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. >>> >However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't >>> >think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. >>> > >>> >Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season >>> >5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting >>> >character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to >>> >the criticism. >>> > >>> >But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME. >>> >>> I think that pretty much goes without saying, Ian. >> >>Sometimes I wonder. >> > >Me too. Well, I did add in my post that I said most (notice I didn't say all) people realize Spike is just a character and not real. Obviously I'm not the only one thinking that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-11 11:55:47+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) >Date: 4/11/2003 3:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <5aa58763.0304102338.15c11586@posting.google.com> > >EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >news:<cvvb9v0omtqr1egg56mkf84h74v1vs21lb@4ax.com>... > >> On 10 Apr 2003 14:58:17 -0700, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: >> >> >"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message >news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... >> > >> >> "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >> >> news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >> > >> > >> >> > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed >from >> >> > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >> >> > For others of us, not so much. >> >> >> >> But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 >years. >> >> I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it >> >> would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got >"Scoobies: >> >> The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade >of >> >> Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this >> >> year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >> >> left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of >their >> >> former selves. >> > >> >I think there's an important point in this paragraph. >> > >> >I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around >> >Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. >> >However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't >> >think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. >> > >> >Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season >> >5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting >> >character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to >> >the criticism. >> > >> >But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME. >> >> I think that pretty much goes without saying, Ian. > >Sometimes I wonder. > Me too. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 11:55:47+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) >Date: 4/11/2003 3:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <5aa58763.0304102338.15c11586@posting.google.com> > >EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >news:<cvvb9v0omtqr1egg56mkf84h74v1vs21lb@4ax.com>... > >> On 10 Apr 2003 14:58:17 -0700, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: >> >> >"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message >news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... >> > >> >> "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >> >> news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >> > >> > >> >> > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title changed >from >> >> > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >> >> > For others of us, not so much. >> >> >> >> But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 >years. >> >> I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years it >> >> would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got >"Scoobies: >> >> The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and "Cavalcade >of >> >> Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil this >> >> year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >> >> left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of >their >> >> former selves. >> > >> >I think there's an important point in this paragraph. >> > >> >I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around >> >Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. >> >However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't >> >think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. >> > >> >Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season >> >5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting >> >character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to >> >the criticism. >> > >> >But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME. >> >> I think that pretty much goes without saying, Ian. > >Sometimes I wonder. > Me too. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 11:55:49-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"Mister Binz" <mrbinz@nospam.free> wrote in message news:3E959488.90700@nospam.free... > > How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who > > was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to > > revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > > What baddie are you talking about ? The First Evil ? > It first (^^) appeared in Amends, 10th episode in the 3rd season. Season 2 Little Bad. AKA Spike. Arnold Kim

2003-04-11 11:55:49-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"Mister Binz" <mrbinz@nospam.free> wrote in message news:3E959488.90700@nospam.free... > > How did this groundbreaking show about an apocolypse-stopping super heroine who > > was so human underneath-and her close knit support group, go from that to > > revolving around a season 2 little baddie? I don't get it. > > What baddie are you talking about ? The First Evil ? > It first (^^) appeared in Amends, 10th episode in the 3rd season. Season 2 Little Bad. AKA Spike. Arnold Kim

2003-04-11 12:04:36+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030411030528.08264.00000308@mb-cn.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way > >From: sirius259@aol.comeleon (Sirius) > >Date: 4/10/2003 3:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <20030410185052.05481.00001092@mb-fo.aol.com> > > > >Roaz, the original poster referred to Spike in ONE sentence, and you write a > >novel-length one defending him, > > Actually I wasn't defending Spike, I was refuting a theory. > > But thanks for comparing my post to a novel. :) You must be the Tolstoy of usenet then.

2003-04-11 12:04:36+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030411030528.08264.00000308@mb-cn.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way > >From: sirius259@aol.comeleon (Sirius) > >Date: 4/10/2003 3:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <20030410185052.05481.00001092@mb-fo.aol.com> > > > >Roaz, the original poster referred to Spike in ONE sentence, and you write a > >novel-length one defending him, > > Actually I wasn't defending Spike, I was refuting a theory. > > But thanks for comparing my post to a novel. :) You must be the Tolstoy of usenet then.

2003-04-11 12:34:08-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 11 Apr 2003 16:16:32 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>From: EGK me@privacy.net >>Date: 4/11/2003 5:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time >>Message-id: <6ded9vkmurhjrahpngternc545c8dpg5ht@4ax.com> >> >>On 11 Apr 2003 11:55:47 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >> >>>>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>>>From: igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) >>>>Sometimes I wonder. >>>> >>> >>>Me too. >> >>Well, I did add in my post that I said most (notice I didn't say all) people >>realize Spike is just a character and not real. Obviously I'm not the only >>one thinking that. > >How do you know you are not the only one thinking, the rest of us being mere >figments of your imagination? It would be possible except i'm a typical guy. Ian wouldnt be in my imagination at all and you'd have to be typing that in the nude. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-11 12:34:08-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (EGK <me@privacy.net>)


On 11 Apr 2003 16:16:32 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>From: EGK me@privacy.net >>Date: 4/11/2003 5:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time >>Message-id: <6ded9vkmurhjrahpngternc545c8dpg5ht@4ax.com> >> >>On 11 Apr 2003 11:55:47 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: >> >>>>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>>>From: igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) >>>>Sometimes I wonder. >>>> >>> >>>Me too. >> >>Well, I did add in my post that I said most (notice I didn't say all) people >>realize Spike is just a character and not real. Obviously I'm not the only >>one thinking that. > >How do you know you are not the only one thinking, the rest of us being mere >figments of your imagination? It would be possible except i'm a typical guy. Ian wouldnt be in my imagination at all and you'd have to be typing that in the nude. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There would be a lot more civility in this world if people didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you" - (Calvin and Hobbes) email: egk-nospam-@hotmail.com

2003-04-11 15:52:40+09:30 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Elfbard <elfbard@iprimus.com.au>)


> Whereas I think the past makes it evident that >if James Marsters had quit at the end of S5 and gone on to other things, Xander >STILL wouldn't have had decent storylines in the past two years, because he >didn't in S4 when Spike had little to do. If only that statement didn't have a ring of truth to it -.- oh well.

2003-04-11 15:52:40+09:30 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Elfbard <elfbard@iprimus.com.au>)


> Whereas I think the past makes it evident that >if James Marsters had quit at the end of S5 and gone on to other things, Xander >STILL wouldn't have had decent storylines in the past two years, because he >didn't in S4 when Spike had little to do. If only that statement didn't have a ring of truth to it -.- oh well.

2003-04-11 16:15:32+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: "Chris Zabel" alephnull@earthlink.net >Date: 4/11/2003 5:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <obyla.19280$4P1.1730115@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030411030528.08264.00000308@mb-cn.aol.com... >> >Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >> >From: sirius259@aol.comeleon (Sirius) >> >Date: 4/10/2003 3:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time >> >Message-id: <20030410185052.05481.00001092@mb-fo.aol.com> >> > >> >Roaz, the original poster referred to Spike in ONE sentence, and you >write a >> >novel-length one defending him, >> >> Actually I wasn't defending Spike, I was refuting a theory. >> >> But thanks for comparing my post to a novel. :) > > >You must be the Tolstoy of usenet then. > I prefer to be the George Sand of usenet. Where can I get me some of that hot Chopin bootie? > > > > > > > Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 16:15:32+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: "Chris Zabel" alephnull@earthlink.net >Date: 4/11/2003 5:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <obyla.19280$4P1.1730115@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030411030528.08264.00000308@mb-cn.aol.com... >> >Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >> >From: sirius259@aol.comeleon (Sirius) >> >Date: 4/10/2003 3:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time >> >Message-id: <20030410185052.05481.00001092@mb-fo.aol.com> >> > >> >Roaz, the original poster referred to Spike in ONE sentence, and you >write a >> >novel-length one defending him, >> >> Actually I wasn't defending Spike, I was refuting a theory. >> >> But thanks for comparing my post to a novel. :) > > >You must be the Tolstoy of usenet then. > I prefer to be the George Sand of usenet. Where can I get me some of that hot Chopin bootie? > > > > > > > Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 16:16:32+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: EGK me@privacy.net >Date: 4/11/2003 5:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <6ded9vkmurhjrahpngternc545c8dpg5ht@4ax.com> > >On 11 Apr 2003 11:55:47 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > >>>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>>From: igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) >>>Date: 4/11/2003 3:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time >>>Message-id: <5aa58763.0304102338.15c11586@posting.google.com> >>> >>>EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>>news:<cvvb9v0omtqr1egg56mkf84h74v1vs21lb@4ax.com>... >>> >>>> On 10 Apr 2003 14:58:17 -0700, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: >>>> >>>> >"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message >>>news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... >>>> > >>>> >> "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>>> >> news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title >changed >>>from >>>> >> > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >>>> >> > For others of us, not so much. >>>> >> >>>> >> But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 >>>years. >>>> >> I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years >it >>>> >> would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got >>>"Scoobies: >>>> >> The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and >"Cavalcade >>>of >>>> >> Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil >this >>>> >> year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >>>> >> left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of >>>their >>>> >> former selves. >>>> > >>>> >I think there's an important point in this paragraph. >>>> > >>>> >I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around >>>> >Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. >>>> >However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't >>>> >think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. >>>> > >>>> >Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season >>>> >5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting >>>> >character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to >>>> >the criticism. >>>> > >>>> >But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME. >>>> >>>> I think that pretty much goes without saying, Ian. >>> >>>Sometimes I wonder. >>> >> >>Me too. > >Well, I did add in my post that I said most (notice I didn't say all) people >realize Spike is just a character and not real. Obviously I'm not the only >one thinking that. How do you know you are not the only one thinking, the rest of us being mere figments of your imagination? Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 16:16:32+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >From: EGK me@privacy.net >Date: 4/11/2003 5:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <6ded9vkmurhjrahpngternc545c8dpg5ht@4ax.com> > >On 11 Apr 2003 11:55:47 GMT, fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote: > >>>Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way >>>From: igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) >>>Date: 4/11/2003 3:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time >>>Message-id: <5aa58763.0304102338.15c11586@posting.google.com> >>> >>>EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>>news:<cvvb9v0omtqr1egg56mkf84h74v1vs21lb@4ax.com>... >>> >>>> On 10 Apr 2003 14:58:17 -0700, igs622001@yahoo.com (Ian) wrote: >>>> >>>> >"Chris Zabel" <alephnull@earthlink.net> wrote in message >>>news:<pFila.17972$4P1.1609216@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... >>>> > >>>> >> "EGK" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message >>>> >> news:73cb9votts63rlu82o646utk65gcaa17rd@4ax.com... >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> > For some who would have been more then happy to see the title >changed >>>from >>>> >> > BTVS to The Spike show, I'm sure it's been a happy experience. >>>> >> > For others of us, not so much. >>>> >> >>>> >> But that's the problem. It hasn't been the Spike Show for the past 2 >>>years. >>>> >> I guarantee if the writers had focused on Spike more the past 2 years >it >>>> >> would have been a whole lot more entertaining. Instead we got >>>"Scoobies: >>>> >> The Depressed Years" as presented by Prozac in season 6, and >"Cavalcade >>>of >>>> >> Crappy New Characters No One Cares About" as presented by Clearasil >this >>>> >> year. It's not Spike's fault he's the only interesting character >>>> >> left...it's the writing staff who turned fan favorites into shells of >>>their >>>> >> former selves. >>>> > >>>> >I think there's an important point in this paragraph. >>>> > >>>> >I'm one of those who feel that the show really has revolved around >>>> >Spike this last couple of seasons and that that has damaged the show. >>>> >However, unless "Spike" is actually writing the scripts now, I don't >>>> >think it's fair to blame Spike for the show's decline. >>>> > >>>> >Spike *is* an interesting character and, for the latter part of season >>>> >5 and early part of season 6, he was pretty much the most interesting >>>> >character. But that's a statement of the problem, not an answer to >>>> >the criticism. >>>> > >>>> >But, be that as it may, blaming Spike is nonsensical. Blame ME. >>>> >>>> I think that pretty much goes without saying, Ian. >>> >>>Sometimes I wonder. >>> >> >>Me too. > >Well, I did add in my post that I said most (notice I didn't say all) people >realize Spike is just a character and not real. Obviously I'm not the only >one thinking that. How do you know you are not the only one thinking, the rest of us being mere figments of your imagination? Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 20:30:09+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


EGK wrote: > >It would be possible except i'm a typical guy. Ian wouldnt be in my >imagination at all and you'd have to be typing that in the nude. :) > Ouch, uncomfortable chair. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 20:30:09+00:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


EGK wrote: > >It would be possible except i'm a typical guy. Ian wouldnt be in my >imagination at all and you'd have to be typing that in the nude. :) > Ouch, uncomfortable chair. Rose "No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne Girls have human rights, too

2003-04-11 22:29:57-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (MiJM@webtv.net)


Amen!

2003-04-11 22:29:57-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (MiJM@webtv.net)


Amen!

2003-04-12 00:54:25-07:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<vhrd9vs2q401q5nfdb0l7h46g7k26o0597@4ax.com>... > It would be possible except i'm a typical guy. Ian wouldnt be in my > imagination at all and you'd have to be typing that in the nude. :) *poof* disappears

2003-04-12 00:54:25-07:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (igs622001@yahoo.com)


EGK <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<vhrd9vs2q401q5nfdb0l7h46g7k26o0597@4ax.com>... > It would be possible except i'm a typical guy. Ian wouldnt be in my > imagination at all and you'd have to be typing that in the nude. :) *poof* disappears

2003-04-12 01:00:41+01:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Sleeper <Unknown>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030410153035.05668.00001061@mb-fo.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way > >From: EGK me@privacy.net > >Date: 4/10/2003 11:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <qdeb9vgelq9o2u4jsb1onhtgnn5sv6uca3@4ax.com> > > >Spike even replaced Giles last year as the > >only person Buffy could talk to > > It's really not ME's fault that Anthony Stewart Head wanted to go back to > England. And since when has Giles been the only person Buffy could talk > to? That's been Willow's role. She lost the role of confidant but she was > such a major force in S6 that I don't think that's a sticking point. Well there was that repressed blaming all involved for pulling her out of Heaven thing working against confiding in Willow and Xander. For some reason not Tara. Maybe because she knew Tara had been against bringing her mother back from the dead. Giles was in the very episode that Buffy revealed she'd been in Heaven and in every subsequent one for quiet awhile. It's ME's fault for coming up with such a poor soap opera explanation for his later absence. I may be miss-remembering this but didn't Buffy promise to stop keeping secrets from Giles after the Angel back from Hell debacle or was it after Faith killed the deputy. You know, people have been complaining that Giles betrayed Buffy's trust by going behind her back in trying to kill Spike but it seems to me she betrayed his or never gave it to him in the first place. Sleeper -- 'It's a library; only the stupid and the evil are afraid of those.' The Bridge, Iain Banks

2003-04-12 01:00:41+01:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Sleeper <Unknown>)


Rose <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030410153035.05668.00001061@mb-fo.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way > >From: EGK me@privacy.net > >Date: 4/10/2003 11:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time > >Message-id: <qdeb9vgelq9o2u4jsb1onhtgnn5sv6uca3@4ax.com> > > >Spike even replaced Giles last year as the > >only person Buffy could talk to > > It's really not ME's fault that Anthony Stewart Head wanted to go back to > England. And since when has Giles been the only person Buffy could talk > to? That's been Willow's role. She lost the role of confidant but she was > such a major force in S6 that I don't think that's a sticking point. Well there was that repressed blaming all involved for pulling her out of Heaven thing working against confiding in Willow and Xander. For some reason not Tara. Maybe because she knew Tara had been against bringing her mother back from the dead. Giles was in the very episode that Buffy revealed she'd been in Heaven and in every subsequent one for quiet awhile. It's ME's fault for coming up with such a poor soap opera explanation for his later absence. I may be miss-remembering this but didn't Buffy promise to stop keeping secrets from Giles after the Angel back from Hell debacle or was it after Faith killed the deputy. You know, people have been complaining that Giles betrayed Buffy's trust by going behind her back in trying to kill Spike but it seems to me she betrayed his or never gave it to him in the first place. Sleeper -- 'It's a library; only the stupid and the evil are afraid of those.' The Bridge, Iain Banks

2003-04-12 16:22:54-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Gubira@webtv.net)


I whole heartly agree. The series is a shadow of it's former self. Sad. What a shame. It use to be a favorite.

2003-04-12 16:22:54-04:00 - Re: BTVS Lost Itself Somewhere Along the Way - (Gubira@webtv.net)


I whole heartly agree. The series is a shadow of it's former self. Sad. What a shame. It use to be a favorite.