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2003-05-19 16:37:26-07:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Ben Anspach wrote: > > > Anyway, moving on, this time everyone thinks this plan to get them all > killed for no good reason is the bested plan ever. Maybe it's because > Buffy didn't use the "it's a gut instinct" argument. Oh and in-between > Willow is declared the most powerful Witch ever. I'd complain about how > she once was supposed to be only fairly weak because she wasn't a > natural born witch bu then I remember Season sucks and I don't want to, > so I won't dwell on it. > > So we move on the school. Everyone splits up, sits down, weak humans > above. Not guarding the exit fo the seal. You know where they could take > the �bies on one by one but as far away from each other as possible. > Sure. Oh and they put Anya/Andrew in one team and Wood/Giles in another. > Because it always makes sense to have one completely weak side and one > side with trained fighters. Moving on again.... I don't understand why they didn't blow up the school of knock it down with a wrecking ball. Xander could have handled that. If the seal was exposed to sunlight there would be no Ubies leaking out. Would have saved Anya at least. > > We then get a huge fight between basically everyone and the �bies. > Remember when Buffy had humongous difficulty fighting one �bervamp? Well > as we already saw last week, that must have been the end level boss > getting confused, because these one are so weak Human!Anya, Xander and > Dawn > have no trouble slaying them. I pointed this out in another thread. Some of the SITs were killing them with a ordinary wooden stake. Makes Buffy's earlier Ubie encounters look pretty silly. > > Which brings me to my next plot hole. If they didn't know what the > medallion was going to do, what was the plan? Spend a couple of days > killing the 20.000 �bie's? And what if there where a couple of million, > you know, the kind of number you'd need to actually successfully invade > earth? Wouldn't have been a problem if they could have retreated into the sunlight and closed the seal. That's the point of blowing up the school first. Then they could go to plan B, something like Napalm down the hole.

2003-05-19 16:37:26-07:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Ben Anspach wrote: > > > Anyway, moving on, this time everyone thinks this plan to get them all > killed for no good reason is the bested plan ever. Maybe it's because > Buffy didn't use the "it's a gut instinct" argument. Oh and in-between > Willow is declared the most powerful Witch ever. I'd complain about how > she once was supposed to be only fairly weak because she wasn't a > natural born witch bu then I remember Season sucks and I don't want to, > so I won't dwell on it. > > So we move on the school. Everyone splits up, sits down, weak humans > above. Not guarding the exit fo the seal. You know where they could take > the �bies on one by one but as far away from each other as possible. > Sure. Oh and they put Anya/Andrew in one team and Wood/Giles in another. > Because it always makes sense to have one completely weak side and one > side with trained fighters. Moving on again.... I don't understand why they didn't blow up the school of knock it down with a wrecking ball. Xander could have handled that. If the seal was exposed to sunlight there would be no Ubies leaking out. Would have saved Anya at least. > > We then get a huge fight between basically everyone and the �bies. > Remember when Buffy had humongous difficulty fighting one �bervamp? Well > as we already saw last week, that must have been the end level boss > getting confused, because these one are so weak Human!Anya, Xander and > Dawn > have no trouble slaying them. I pointed this out in another thread. Some of the SITs were killing them with a ordinary wooden stake. Makes Buffy's earlier Ubie encounters look pretty silly. > > Which brings me to my next plot hole. If they didn't know what the > medallion was going to do, what was the plan? Spend a couple of days > killing the 20.000 �bie's? And what if there where a couple of million, > you know, the kind of number you'd need to actually successfully invade > earth? Wouldn't have been a problem if they could have retreated into the sunlight and closed the seal. That's the point of blowing up the school first. Then they could go to plan B, something like Napalm down the hole.

2003-05-19 21:00:22-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ken Ream <kream@zbzoom.net>)


"Ben Anspach" <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com... > much ranting omitted< > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > series. That really just > says it all. Uhm, watch the Grrrr! Aarrg! again closely. There's a notable variation. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

2003-05-19 21:00:22-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ken Ream <kream@zbzoom.net>)


"Ben Anspach" <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com... > much ranting omitted< > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > series. That really just > says it all. Uhm, watch the Grrrr! Aarrg! again closely. There's a notable variation. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

2003-05-19 21:02:57-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (t r a c y <totallyfake@ddress.com>)


> Some loose ends: > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > series. That really just > says it all. > well then i guess it says a whole lot more than you were expecting because there was indeed a special grrr argh at the end. our favourite little monster breaks the fourth wall and turns his full face to the audience as he grrr arghs. he's never done that before has he...? t r a c y http://playfortoday.com

2003-05-19 21:02:57-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (t r a c y <totallyfake@ddress.com>)


> Some loose ends: > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > series. That really just > says it all. > well then i guess it says a whole lot more than you were expecting because there was indeed a special grrr argh at the end. our favourite little monster breaks the fourth wall and turns his full face to the audience as he grrr arghs. he's never done that before has he...? t r a c y http://playfortoday.com

2003-05-19 21:48:18-07:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (watsiyem1@yahoo.com)


I just have to say, I never thought I'd see a Strongbad reference on Buffy. That was just odd, if funny. TROGDOR!!!!

2003-05-19 21:48:18-07:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (watsiyem1@yahoo.com)


I just have to say, I never thought I'd see a Strongbad reference on Buffy. That was just odd, if funny. TROGDOR!!!!

2003-05-19 21:54:33-05:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <190520032208582958%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>, Ben Anspach > <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Some loose ends: > > > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > > series. That really just > > says it all. > > Watch it again. > > > > > > - Ok a First Moron Recap: What was his plan? Why was Caleb going to do?, > > was "From beneath you it Devours" supposed to mean the ���bies? (in which > > case, very silly phrase), why did FE give Spike a a trigger (it > > certainly wasn't to stop him using the medallion since > > a) Buffy didn't have it, she didn't even know about it and > > b) There's Angel.) > > Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It > never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > > > > What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and > > then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? > > What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing > > Everyone keeps mentioning? > > See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer > relevant. We may never find out. Gee.... that's entertaining!

2003-05-19 21:54:33-05:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <190520032208582958%dsample@synapse.net>, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote: > In article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>, Ben Anspach > <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Some loose ends: > > > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > > series. That really just > > says it all. > > Watch it again. > > > > > > - Ok a First Moron Recap: What was his plan? Why was Caleb going to do?, > > was "From beneath you it Devours" supposed to mean the ���bies? (in which > > case, very silly phrase), why did FE give Spike a a trigger (it > > certainly wasn't to stop him using the medallion since > > a) Buffy didn't have it, she didn't even know about it and > > b) There's Angel.) > > Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It > never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > > > > What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and > > then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? > > What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing > > Everyone keeps mentioning? > > See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer > relevant. We may never find out. Gee.... that's entertaining!

2003-05-19 22:08:58-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>, Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote: > Some loose ends: > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > series. That really just > says it all. Watch it again. > > - Ok a First Moron Recap: What was his plan? Why was Caleb going to do?, > was "From beneath you it Devours" supposed to mean the �bies? (in which > case, very silly phrase), why did FE give Spike a a trigger (it > certainly wasn't to stop him using the medallion since > a) Buffy didn't have it, she didn't even know about it and > b) There's Angel.) Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and > then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? > What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing > Everyone keeps mentioning? See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer relevant. We may never find out. > - "Think happy things [..] bunnies" "Bunnies. Happy. Floppy eared. > Bunnies" Die hard Anya rules! "Hoppy" not "Happy." -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-19 22:08:58-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>, Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote: > Some loose ends: > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > series. That really just > says it all. Watch it again. > > - Ok a First Moron Recap: What was his plan? Why was Caleb going to do?, > was "From beneath you it Devours" supposed to mean the �bies? (in which > case, very silly phrase), why did FE give Spike a a trigger (it > certainly wasn't to stop him using the medallion since > a) Buffy didn't have it, she didn't even know about it and > b) There's Angel.) Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and > then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? > What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing > Everyone keeps mentioning? See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer relevant. We may never find out. > - "Think happy things [..] bunnies" "Bunnies. Happy. Floppy eared. > Bunnies" Die hard Anya rules! "Hoppy" not "Happy." -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-19 22:46:44+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Slauerr wrote: > >I hoped this beeing the last episode ever >would stop the prejudice whining. Nor did it stop you from quoting 17 paragraphs just to make a comment about the post in general rather than specific points amongst the 17 paragraphs. "I scorn your idea of love." Jane Eyre

2003-05-19 22:46:44+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Slauerr wrote: > >I hoped this beeing the last episode ever >would stop the prejudice whining. Nor did it stop you from quoting 17 paragraphs just to make a comment about the post in general rather than specific points amongst the 17 paragraphs. "I scorn your idea of love." Jane Eyre

2003-05-19 22:56:25+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Shorty <notrealshorty@hotmail.com>)


On Tue, 20 May 2003 00:35:17 +0200, Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote: ><snip article> > >(please cut unnecessary quoting) > >> I hoped this beeing the last episode ever would stop the prejudice whining. >> Guess it didn't. > >I assume with prejudice whining you mean I haven't seen the ep? I have. >It disappointed. I wrote. It's pretty much the point of the newsgroup. > >> But on the bright side, at least it will be the last whining. :) >> You're in luck, you'll never have to watch again. > >I am quite pleased about that, yes. > >Ben That was worthy of Television Without Pity. You were mostly wrong but we each have our opinions. Shorty

2003-05-19 22:56:25+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Shorty <notrealshorty@hotmail.com>)


On Tue, 20 May 2003 00:35:17 +0200, Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote: ><snip article> > >(please cut unnecessary quoting) > >> I hoped this beeing the last episode ever would stop the prejudice whining. >> Guess it didn't. > >I assume with prejudice whining you mean I haven't seen the ep? I have. >It disappointed. I wrote. It's pretty much the point of the newsgroup. > >> But on the bright side, at least it will be the last whining. :) >> You're in luck, you'll never have to watch again. > >I am quite pleased about that, yes. > >Ben That was worthy of Television Without Pity. You were mostly wrong but we each have our opinions. Shorty

2003-05-19 23:09:47+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Crazy Cat <khlua35001@sneakemail.com>)


"slauerrr" <slauerrr@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3ec9600b$0$76756$1b62eedf@news.wanadoo.nl: > > "Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > news:20030519184644.14518.00000386@mb-m03.aol.com... >> Slauerr wrote: >> >> > >> >I hoped this beeing the last episode ever >would stop the prejudice > whining. >> >> Nor did it stop you from quoting 17 paragraphs just to make a comment > about the >> post in general rather than specific points amongst the 17 paragraphs. > > Buffy's over. All netiquettes are gone. It's pure chaos now. > I've been polite for two years now in this group. You could cut me some > slack, given the emotional state I'm in... :( > > > Buffy may be gone, but usenet (and thus netiquette) lives forever ! You may quote may on that, Crazy

2003-05-19 23:09:47+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Crazy Cat <khlua35001@sneakemail.com>)


"slauerrr" <slauerrr@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3ec9600b$0$76756$1b62eedf@news.wanadoo.nl: > > "Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message > news:20030519184644.14518.00000386@mb-m03.aol.com... >> Slauerr wrote: >> >> > >> >I hoped this beeing the last episode ever >would stop the prejudice > whining. >> >> Nor did it stop you from quoting 17 paragraphs just to make a comment > about the >> post in general rather than specific points amongst the 17 paragraphs. > > Buffy's over. All netiquettes are gone. It's pure chaos now. > I've been polite for two years now in this group. You could cut me some > slack, given the emotional state I'm in... :( > > > Buffy may be gone, but usenet (and thus netiquette) lives forever ! You may quote may on that, Crazy

2003-05-19 23:30:07+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") >From: "slauerrr" slauerrr@hotmail.com >Date: 5/19/2003 3:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <3ec9600b$0$76756$1b62eedf@news.wanadoo.nl> > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030519184644.14518.00000386@mb-m03.aol.com... >> Slauerr wrote: >> >> > >> >I hoped this beeing the last episode ever >would stop the prejudice >whining. >> >> Nor did it stop you from quoting 17 paragraphs just to make a comment >about the >> post in general rather than specific points amongst the 17 paragraphs. > >Buffy's over. All netiquettes are gone. It's pure chaos now. >I've been polite for two years now in this group. You could cut me some >slack, given the emotional state I'm in... :( > Sorry, I didn't know you were in pain. There's always Angel for one more year. Think of it as methadone. "I scorn your idea of love." Jane Eyre

2003-05-19 23:30:07+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") >From: "slauerrr" slauerrr@hotmail.com >Date: 5/19/2003 3:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <3ec9600b$0$76756$1b62eedf@news.wanadoo.nl> > > >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030519184644.14518.00000386@mb-m03.aol.com... >> Slauerr wrote: >> >> > >> >I hoped this beeing the last episode ever >would stop the prejudice >whining. >> >> Nor did it stop you from quoting 17 paragraphs just to make a comment >about the >> post in general rather than specific points amongst the 17 paragraphs. > >Buffy's over. All netiquettes are gone. It's pure chaos now. >I've been polite for two years now in this group. You could cut me some >slack, given the emotional state I'm in... :( > Sorry, I didn't know you were in pain. There's always Angel for one more year. Think of it as methadone. "I scorn your idea of love." Jane Eyre

2003-05-19 23:35:00+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Ben wrote: > >I guess in the end the problem is that I always felt Buffy was really >about the core four. With all due respect, I don't think that's been true since S4, in which Riley was the true protagonist because he was lead character who underwent true change. S5 featured Dawn, Tara and Spike more than Xander in terms of story importance. S6 was about Buffy and Willow, with Giles gone and Xander having a backgroundie subplot. (Tara and Spike were props in S6... props with a lot of lines.) S7 was about the SITs and Spike more than about Xander or Giles, with Willow and Kennedy coming in third to SITs and Spike. S1-S3 was The Core Four. S4 ended that forever. And this episode wasn't. Perhaps that's my problem, >but I'd say it's a valid complaint nonetheless. > "I scorn your idea of love." Jane Eyre

2003-05-19 23:35:00+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Ben wrote: > >I guess in the end the problem is that I always felt Buffy was really >about the core four. With all due respect, I don't think that's been true since S4, in which Riley was the true protagonist because he was lead character who underwent true change. S5 featured Dawn, Tara and Spike more than Xander in terms of story importance. S6 was about Buffy and Willow, with Giles gone and Xander having a backgroundie subplot. (Tara and Spike were props in S6... props with a lot of lines.) S7 was about the SITs and Spike more than about Xander or Giles, with Willow and Kennedy coming in third to SITs and Spike. S1-S3 was The Core Four. S4 ended that forever. And this episode wasn't. Perhaps that's my problem, >but I'd say it's a valid complaint nonetheless. > "I scorn your idea of love." Jane Eyre

2003-05-19 23:45:14+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (mrsfrench <vze3gw385@verizon.net>)


"Ben Anspach" <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3EC96573.5F3EF2F0@hotmail.com... > > slauerrr wrote: > > > > I have seen the episode, and it was all it could be, after a lackluster > > season. > > I just mean that this is the end, and it's a good one. > > I expected more from this last season, but the finale was all that it could > > and should be, and I think it's time to stop wallowing over the chances this > > season had, and just respect a good finale. > > Or are you gonna tell me, that with the material the season gave it, this > > wasn't a good finale? If so, then I'm officially stunned. > > Well prepare to be stunned. Yes I don't think this was a good finale. > > First of all I don't grade on a curve. Second this whole season screamed > "Just wait until you see what we cooked up". Or at least that is how I > choose interpret the whole "lets sit around for 10 episodes doing almost > nothing" during the middle of the season. I assumed that ME once again > hand the idea for some big finish and hadn't thought out how to get > there. > > But most importantly are two things. One I expected better from Joss > Wheadon. No I'm not one of those who think he's a god among writers. I > thought _Family_ was quite bad and that _The Body_ is greatly overrated. > But I do think he has a good handle on both the characters and the their > interaction. And I assumed he would like to give the show that really > gave him his rise to glory a nice send off. > > The other is that I do think this episode could have been better. I've > summed up half a dozen plot holes in the episode that have little to > nothing to do with what has gone on before. The show wasted valuable > screen time on the secondary and tertiary characters. Yes the set-up > sucked (and ME was there for the whole time. At worst they could have > done damage control in the last few eps) but in that case you can pull > out the emergency break. I'd complain about ignoring past plotholes just > as much, but I would have liked the ep so much better. > > I guess in the end the problem is that I always felt Buffy was really > about the core four. And this episode wasn't. Perhaps that's my problem, > but I'd say it's a valid complaint nonetheless. > > Ben I think Joss is creatively tapped out, is still in mourning over Firefly being cancelled (I think that did some serious damage to his overrated opinion of himself) and he saw writing the last EP as a chore. I mean really, if this is the grand finale, the ending of a critically acclaimed television series that's touted for it's writing more than anything, wouldn't you expect better? Cookie dough analogies? The two most interesting characters dying horrible and in Anya's case senseless deaths? I mean why not kill off Dawn? Why Not? I ask you once again - why not Dawn? Joss needs a long vacation.

2003-05-19 23:45:14+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (mrsfrench <vze3gw385@verizon.net>)


"Ben Anspach" <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3EC96573.5F3EF2F0@hotmail.com... > > slauerrr wrote: > > > > I have seen the episode, and it was all it could be, after a lackluster > > season. > > I just mean that this is the end, and it's a good one. > > I expected more from this last season, but the finale was all that it could > > and should be, and I think it's time to stop wallowing over the chances this > > season had, and just respect a good finale. > > Or are you gonna tell me, that with the material the season gave it, this > > wasn't a good finale? If so, then I'm officially stunned. > > Well prepare to be stunned. Yes I don't think this was a good finale. > > First of all I don't grade on a curve. Second this whole season screamed > "Just wait until you see what we cooked up". Or at least that is how I > choose interpret the whole "lets sit around for 10 episodes doing almost > nothing" during the middle of the season. I assumed that ME once again > hand the idea for some big finish and hadn't thought out how to get > there. > > But most importantly are two things. One I expected better from Joss > Wheadon. No I'm not one of those who think he's a god among writers. I > thought _Family_ was quite bad and that _The Body_ is greatly overrated. > But I do think he has a good handle on both the characters and the their > interaction. And I assumed he would like to give the show that really > gave him his rise to glory a nice send off. > > The other is that I do think this episode could have been better. I've > summed up half a dozen plot holes in the episode that have little to > nothing to do with what has gone on before. The show wasted valuable > screen time on the secondary and tertiary characters. Yes the set-up > sucked (and ME was there for the whole time. At worst they could have > done damage control in the last few eps) but in that case you can pull > out the emergency break. I'd complain about ignoring past plotholes just > as much, but I would have liked the ep so much better. > > I guess in the end the problem is that I always felt Buffy was really > about the core four. And this episode wasn't. Perhaps that's my problem, > but I'd say it's a valid complaint nonetheless. > > Ben I think Joss is creatively tapped out, is still in mourning over Firefly being cancelled (I think that did some serious damage to his overrated opinion of himself) and he saw writing the last EP as a chore. I mean really, if this is the grand finale, the ending of a critically acclaimed television series that's touted for it's writing more than anything, wouldn't you expect better? Cookie dough analogies? The two most interesting characters dying horrible and in Anya's case senseless deaths? I mean why not kill off Dawn? Why Not? I ask you once again - why not Dawn? Joss needs a long vacation.

2003-05-20 00:00:43+02:00 - It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


Sweet holly mother of Zeus, can't wait for the TWoP recap on this one. At least I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy that. Remember when Joss would write really great episodes filled with plot and great characters interaction both? Well this isn't one of them. This has more holes and more threads thrown into the wind than cut up 16th century fishnet. It does have the classic lines we've all grown so incredibly fond of: - "But he has a soul know" - "Champion" "ChampionChampionChampionChampionChampion" (And here you though only _Angel_ suffered from this one) So where to begin? How about Angel. After disposing of Caleb, Buffy is filled in by Angel on his Cliff Notes On The Apocalypse (Now With A Toy Present Medallion With Every filofolder!) and offers to help her fight. Remember "I need Spike around 'cause he's the strongest fighter" we have Buffy? Well when Angel comes over it's "I need you to go away, 'cause your a strong fighter". I guess we should at least be happy that Angel's cross over was true to all the other Buffy/Angel crossovers: a minimal appearance that was absolutely pointless. Well not entirely pointless, he does bring over the amulet. "Behold! The Amulet of Macguffin! A trinket that comes out of nowhere, is really important, and can only be worn by a super powerful being with a soul. But not Buffy. Or Angel. Or Faith." Oh hell, just engrave the anvil with "Spike's big prop" and be done with it. Truly, on the day the word MacGuffin was reinvented we stood in awe and watched. Then we get to spend 5 minutes of screentime, almost 10% of the *entire* *final* episode of _Buffy_ on a Dawson's Creek moment; Angel wants to know about Spike and Spike want to know about Angel. The fact that Angel even mentions that it's very DC doesn't help anymore than it helped them when Andrew agreed that Buffy's speeches are boring. Buffy actually apologizes for kissing Angel. And explains how much tongue was involved. After some more quality vampire nap time (it's really good for the skin) it's time for the moral of the evening. First!Buffy comes to tell Buffy (again) that she will die alone. Which of course gives her a brilliant idea (Run for hills!). You know, this would have been nice sentiment if it hadn't been taken so literally. It's nice and all that there will be hundreds of Slayers all over the world, but from the character/emotional side, the point is/should be that she isn't alone because she has her friends. It's a pity then that we don't actually get to see her re-connect with those friends. But then those kind of scenes have been passported all season so why start now? Any way, Next morning Buffy lays down her sagacious plan: They will open the seal into the hellmouth and attack the �bervamps. *sigh* Ok number one: since when is the seal a way to the hellmouth? Last I recall the hellmouth opened up to tentacle monster dimension (which makes sense considering it's underneath a High School, albeit without school uniforms). But fine we can scrap that one to Buffy, since she's not too bright. Two: I know I've whined about this before on the group but seeing as this was the final episode and it didn't explain anything I feel I can whine full out: *WHY*? Caleb's dead. The seal is... well Sealed. And you can't kill FE because it's not only incorporeal but is also a manifestation of all evil in the world, even if it's dumber than the most stupid Bond villain. So at this point in the episode it's not more of a threat than before this whole season started and at the end of this episode it isn't any less of a threat. Anyway, moving on, this time everyone thinks this plan to get them all killed for no good reason is the bested plan ever. Maybe it's because Buffy didn't use the "it's a gut instinct" argument. Oh and in-between Willow is declared the most powerful Witch ever. I'd complain about how she once was supposed to be only fairly weak because she wasn't a natural born witch bu then I remember Season sucks and I don't want to, so I won't dwell on it. So we move on the school. Everyone splits up, sits down, weak humans above. Not guarding the exit fo the seal. You know where they could take the �bies on one by one but as far away from each other as possible. Sure. Oh and they put Anya/Andrew in one team and Wood/Giles in another. Because it always makes sense to have one completely weak side and one side with trained fighters. Moving on again.... We then get a huge fight between basically everyone and the �bies. Remember when Buffy had humongous difficulty fighting one �bervamp? Well as we already saw last week, that must have been the end level boss getting confused, because these one are so weak Human!Anya, Xander and Dawn have no trouble slaying them. Which brings me to my next plot hole. If they didn't know what the medallion was going to do, what was the plan? Spend a couple of days killing the 20.000 �bie's? And what if there where a couple of million, you know, the kind of number you'd need to actually successfully invade earth? Meanwhile, Willow gives all the SiT's (including a number of younger ones around the globe) Slayer powers giving her white hair. (Avilicious? ME? Never). Shortly after almost everyone gets mortally wounded. Buffy dramatically falls to the ground after being stabbed through the back, only to get taunted by First!Buffy. This pisses her off so much, she returns from the (almost) dead for the 34th time in a blaze of Staple!Actionmovie! glory. And apparently everyone feels the same way since they rise up as well. Er.... I know I shouldn't ask this but, did they all die and then get better? Is it the newfangled Axe!Scythe!Slayerpowers? Is it mind over matter (unlikely in Buffy's case) Is it their wheatie breakfast? No one knows. I'm starting to wonder if MN thought up the plot to this one. Anyway, Spike's medallion doubles as electroshock therapy and he discovers he really has a soul. He announces it to the world. "My Soul, it's really there" Which is good to know since apart from Buffy's endless affirmation that he ws different it was hard to tell. Meanwhile, Anya dies. No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way that you can't actually tell. Back in Mordor, Spike's Amulet of Yendor (so that's what it does!) starts a light house routine and destroys the �bies al around. A badly stabbed Wood drives the get-away car. Which makes sense, since it's unlikely he'll die and drive against a wall or anything, right? After some driving away, they stop and watch the crater where once was Sunnydale. Then we get some heartfelt agonizing over Anya: "She died saving my life" "That's my girl. Always doing the stupid thing" Ah yes, such a wonderful way to end this relationship which it now seems was dragged out for no particular reason except the fact that they didn't know what to use Xander or Anya for. Giles asks who made the big crater. Buffy: "Spike". Erm... no, the MacGuffin Medallion did it Buffy. BTW it should be interesting to see how in the world they will explain Spike being on _Angel_ since be pretty much burned up, instead of diving into a portal like the spoilers said. (and when I say interesting I mean it in a "Oh my Osiris, what sort of horrible monstrosity will they come with!" way) Next we get the gang cracks some silly joke about malls being destroyed. It's too bad Anya just died a few fucking minutes ago (plus I assume a at least a couple of SiT's) but I'm glad we can crack jokes about. The gang asks Buffy what she is going to do now that there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Slayers. She gives a creepy smile ...... and End. That was Buffy the Vampire Slyer. Aren't you all glad you stuck with the show for all these years? You know I had some small hope left. Seemed silly after 4+ years of disappointment, but it was there. Not a lot of hope. Certainly not that this ep would would fix all the problems the show has build up over the last few years. Just that this would be decent episode that would make me remember why I used to love this series. This wasn't it. But that's good. Now I can finally let go. Some loose ends: - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the series. That really just says it all. - Ok a First Moron Recap: What was his plan? Why was Caleb going to do?, was "From beneath you it Devours" supposed to mean the �bies? (in which case, very silly phrase), why did FE give Spike a a trigger (it certainly wasn't to stop him using the medallion since a) Buffy didn't have it, she didn't even know about it and b) There's Angel.) What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing Everyone keeps mentioning? At least they had a good reason for having all those people flee. Oh I forgot, they didn't. They just had them leave for no good reason so they could have there cool moment of a city being destroyed without all the pesky realism of it being sad because people where dying. You know like a CNN war. - "If this thing blows the world could be next, I need a second front" (actually that would be a fall back line, a second front would involve Angel actually fighting at the same time as the rest of them. But lets not point out Joss's or Buffy's lack of understanding of the military. We've had enough of that all season) - No follow up between Dawn and Xander. A throwaway moment between Buffy and Dawn. So what was the point of that whole escapade, apart from making Xander look both like a no brain minion of Buffy and a weakling who gets overpowered by 16 year olds? - No mention of the CoW being destroyed. Seems somewhat important now that there are hundreds of Slayers to track down and instruct. Some Good things: - "He had to split. Whaahahha" Buffy finally cracking up after one of her punny Slayer lines. - Giles playing D&D - "The Earth is definitely doomed" and "There's another [hellmouth] in Cleveland" Continuity = good. - "Think happy things [..] bunnies" "Bunnies. Happy. Floppy eared. Bunnies" Die hard Anya rules! - The Music - the whole "You know I started it. The whole having a soul...." Angel speech. Other Bad things: - the whole "You know I started it. The whole having a soul...." Angel speech. Highly inappropriate timing. - "Part in my eye-socket and everyone is invited. Sometimes I shouldn't say words" Well I guess even Joss likes making Xander be an idiot now. Ben

2003-05-20 00:00:43+02:00 - It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


Sweet holly mother of Zeus, can't wait for the TWoP recap on this one. At least I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy that. Remember when Joss would write really great episodes filled with plot and great characters interaction both? Well this isn't one of them. This has more holes and more threads thrown into the wind than cut up 16th century fishnet. It does have the classic lines we've all grown so incredibly fond of: - "But he has a soul know" - "Champion" "ChampionChampionChampionChampionChampion" (And here you though only _Angel_ suffered from this one) So where to begin? How about Angel. After disposing of Caleb, Buffy is filled in by Angel on his Cliff Notes On The Apocalypse (Now With A Toy Present Medallion With Every filofolder!) and offers to help her fight. Remember "I need Spike around 'cause he's the strongest fighter" we have Buffy? Well when Angel comes over it's "I need you to go away, 'cause your a strong fighter". I guess we should at least be happy that Angel's cross over was true to all the other Buffy/Angel crossovers: a minimal appearance that was absolutely pointless. Well not entirely pointless, he does bring over the amulet. "Behold! The Amulet of Macguffin! A trinket that comes out of nowhere, is really important, and can only be worn by a super powerful being with a soul. But not Buffy. Or Angel. Or Faith." Oh hell, just engrave the anvil with "Spike's big prop" and be done with it. Truly, on the day the word MacGuffin was reinvented we stood in awe and watched. Then we get to spend 5 minutes of screentime, almost 10% of the *entire* *final* episode of _Buffy_ on a Dawson's Creek moment; Angel wants to know about Spike and Spike want to know about Angel. The fact that Angel even mentions that it's very DC doesn't help anymore than it helped them when Andrew agreed that Buffy's speeches are boring. Buffy actually apologizes for kissing Angel. And explains how much tongue was involved. After some more quality vampire nap time (it's really good for the skin) it's time for the moral of the evening. First!Buffy comes to tell Buffy (again) that she will die alone. Which of course gives her a brilliant idea (Run for hills!). You know, this would have been nice sentiment if it hadn't been taken so literally. It's nice and all that there will be hundreds of Slayers all over the world, but from the character/emotional side, the point is/should be that she isn't alone because she has her friends. It's a pity then that we don't actually get to see her re-connect with those friends. But then those kind of scenes have been passported all season so why start now? Any way, Next morning Buffy lays down her sagacious plan: They will open the seal into the hellmouth and attack the �bervamps. *sigh* Ok number one: since when is the seal a way to the hellmouth? Last I recall the hellmouth opened up to tentacle monster dimension (which makes sense considering it's underneath a High School, albeit without school uniforms). But fine we can scrap that one to Buffy, since she's not too bright. Two: I know I've whined about this before on the group but seeing as this was the final episode and it didn't explain anything I feel I can whine full out: *WHY*? Caleb's dead. The seal is... well Sealed. And you can't kill FE because it's not only incorporeal but is also a manifestation of all evil in the world, even if it's dumber than the most stupid Bond villain. So at this point in the episode it's not more of a threat than before this whole season started and at the end of this episode it isn't any less of a threat. Anyway, moving on, this time everyone thinks this plan to get them all killed for no good reason is the bested plan ever. Maybe it's because Buffy didn't use the "it's a gut instinct" argument. Oh and in-between Willow is declared the most powerful Witch ever. I'd complain about how she once was supposed to be only fairly weak because she wasn't a natural born witch bu then I remember Season sucks and I don't want to, so I won't dwell on it. So we move on the school. Everyone splits up, sits down, weak humans above. Not guarding the exit fo the seal. You know where they could take the �bies on one by one but as far away from each other as possible. Sure. Oh and they put Anya/Andrew in one team and Wood/Giles in another. Because it always makes sense to have one completely weak side and one side with trained fighters. Moving on again.... We then get a huge fight between basically everyone and the �bies. Remember when Buffy had humongous difficulty fighting one �bervamp? Well as we already saw last week, that must have been the end level boss getting confused, because these one are so weak Human!Anya, Xander and Dawn have no trouble slaying them. Which brings me to my next plot hole. If they didn't know what the medallion was going to do, what was the plan? Spend a couple of days killing the 20.000 �bie's? And what if there where a couple of million, you know, the kind of number you'd need to actually successfully invade earth? Meanwhile, Willow gives all the SiT's (including a number of younger ones around the globe) Slayer powers giving her white hair. (Avilicious? ME? Never). Shortly after almost everyone gets mortally wounded. Buffy dramatically falls to the ground after being stabbed through the back, only to get taunted by First!Buffy. This pisses her off so much, she returns from the (almost) dead for the 34th time in a blaze of Staple!Actionmovie! glory. And apparently everyone feels the same way since they rise up as well. Er.... I know I shouldn't ask this but, did they all die and then get better? Is it the newfangled Axe!Scythe!Slayerpowers? Is it mind over matter (unlikely in Buffy's case) Is it their wheatie breakfast? No one knows. I'm starting to wonder if MN thought up the plot to this one. Anyway, Spike's medallion doubles as electroshock therapy and he discovers he really has a soul. He announces it to the world. "My Soul, it's really there" Which is good to know since apart from Buffy's endless affirmation that he ws different it was hard to tell. Meanwhile, Anya dies. No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way that you can't actually tell. Back in Mordor, Spike's Amulet of Yendor (so that's what it does!) starts a light house routine and destroys the �bies al around. A badly stabbed Wood drives the get-away car. Which makes sense, since it's unlikely he'll die and drive against a wall or anything, right? After some driving away, they stop and watch the crater where once was Sunnydale. Then we get some heartfelt agonizing over Anya: "She died saving my life" "That's my girl. Always doing the stupid thing" Ah yes, such a wonderful way to end this relationship which it now seems was dragged out for no particular reason except the fact that they didn't know what to use Xander or Anya for. Giles asks who made the big crater. Buffy: "Spike". Erm... no, the MacGuffin Medallion did it Buffy. BTW it should be interesting to see how in the world they will explain Spike being on _Angel_ since be pretty much burned up, instead of diving into a portal like the spoilers said. (and when I say interesting I mean it in a "Oh my Osiris, what sort of horrible monstrosity will they come with!" way) Next we get the gang cracks some silly joke about malls being destroyed. It's too bad Anya just died a few fucking minutes ago (plus I assume a at least a couple of SiT's) but I'm glad we can crack jokes about. The gang asks Buffy what she is going to do now that there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Slayers. She gives a creepy smile ...... and End. That was Buffy the Vampire Slyer. Aren't you all glad you stuck with the show for all these years? You know I had some small hope left. Seemed silly after 4+ years of disappointment, but it was there. Not a lot of hope. Certainly not that this ep would would fix all the problems the show has build up over the last few years. Just that this would be decent episode that would make me remember why I used to love this series. This wasn't it. But that's good. Now I can finally let go. Some loose ends: - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the series. That really just says it all. - Ok a First Moron Recap: What was his plan? Why was Caleb going to do?, was "From beneath you it Devours" supposed to mean the �bies? (in which case, very silly phrase), why did FE give Spike a a trigger (it certainly wasn't to stop him using the medallion since a) Buffy didn't have it, she didn't even know about it and b) There's Angel.) What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing Everyone keeps mentioning? At least they had a good reason for having all those people flee. Oh I forgot, they didn't. They just had them leave for no good reason so they could have there cool moment of a city being destroyed without all the pesky realism of it being sad because people where dying. You know like a CNN war. - "If this thing blows the world could be next, I need a second front" (actually that would be a fall back line, a second front would involve Angel actually fighting at the same time as the rest of them. But lets not point out Joss's or Buffy's lack of understanding of the military. We've had enough of that all season) - No follow up between Dawn and Xander. A throwaway moment between Buffy and Dawn. So what was the point of that whole escapade, apart from making Xander look both like a no brain minion of Buffy and a weakling who gets overpowered by 16 year olds? - No mention of the CoW being destroyed. Seems somewhat important now that there are hundreds of Slayers to track down and instruct. Some Good things: - "He had to split. Whaahahha" Buffy finally cracking up after one of her punny Slayer lines. - Giles playing D&D - "The Earth is definitely doomed" and "There's another [hellmouth] in Cleveland" Continuity = good. - "Think happy things [..] bunnies" "Bunnies. Happy. Floppy eared. Bunnies" Die hard Anya rules! - The Music - the whole "You know I started it. The whole having a soul...." Angel speech. Other Bad things: - the whole "You know I started it. The whole having a soul...." Angel speech. Highly inappropriate timing. - "Part in my eye-socket and everyone is invited. Sometimes I shouldn't say words" Well I guess even Joss likes making Xander be an idiot now. Ben

2003-05-20 00:29:47+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (slauerrr <slauerrr@hotmail.com>)


"Ben Anspach" <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com... > Sweet holly mother of Zeus, can't wait for the TWoP recap on this one. > At least I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy that. > > Remember when Joss would write really great episodes filled with plot > and great characters interaction both? Well this isn't one of them. This > has more holes and more threads thrown into the wind than cut up 16th > century fishnet. > > It does have the classic lines we've all grown so incredibly fond of: > > - "But he has a soul know" > > - "Champion" "ChampionChampionChampionChampionChampion" (And here you > though only _Angel_ suffered from this one) > > So where to begin? How about Angel. After disposing of Caleb, Buffy is > filled in by Angel on his Cliff Notes On The Apocalypse (Now With A Toy > Present Medallion With Every filofolder!) and offers to help her fight. > > Remember "I need Spike around 'cause he's the strongest fighter" we have > Buffy? Well when Angel comes over it's "I need you to go away, 'cause > your a strong fighter". > > I guess we should at least be happy that Angel's cross over was true to > all the other Buffy/Angel crossovers: a minimal appearance that was > absolutely pointless. > > Well not entirely pointless, he does bring over the amulet. > > "Behold! The Amulet of Macguffin! A trinket that comes out of nowhere, > is really important, and can only be worn by a super powerful being with > a soul. But not Buffy. Or Angel. Or Faith." > > Oh hell, just engrave the anvil with "Spike's big prop" and be done with > it. Truly, on the day the word MacGuffin was reinvented we stood in awe > and watched. > > Then we get to spend 5 minutes of screentime, almost 10% of the *entire* > *final* episode of _Buffy_ on a Dawson's Creek moment; Angel wants to > know about Spike and Spike want to know about Angel. The fact that Angel > even mentions that it's very DC doesn't help anymore than it helped them > when Andrew agreed that Buffy's speeches are boring. Buffy actually > apologizes for kissing Angel. And explains how much tongue was > involved. > > After some more quality vampire nap time (it's really good for the skin) > it's time for the moral of the evening. First!Buffy comes to tell Buffy > (again) that she will die alone. Which of course gives her a brilliant > idea (Run for hills!). > > You know, this would have been nice sentiment if it hadn't been taken so > literally. It's nice and all that there will be hundreds of Slayers all > over the world, but from the character/emotional side, the point > is/should be that she isn't alone because she has her friends. It's a > pity then that we don't actually get to see her re-connect with those > friends. But then those kind of scenes have been passported all season > so why start now? > > Any way, Next morning Buffy lays down her sagacious plan: They will open > the seal into the hellmouth and attack the ���bervamps. > > *sigh* > > Ok number one: since when is the seal a way to the hellmouth? Last I > recall the hellmouth opened up to tentacle monster dimension (which > makes sense considering it's underneath a High School, albeit without > school uniforms). But fine we can scrap that one to Buffy, since she's > not > too bright. > > Two: I know I've whined about this before on the group but seeing as > this was the final episode and it didn't explain anything I feel I can > whine full out: *WHY*? > > Caleb's dead. The seal is... well Sealed. And you can't kill FE because > it's not only incorporeal but is also a manifestation of all evil in the > world, even if it's dumber than the most stupid Bond villain. So at this > point in the episode it's not more of a threat than before this whole > season started and at the end of this episode it isn't any less of a > threat. > > Anyway, moving on, this time everyone thinks this plan to get them all > killed for no good reason is the bested plan ever. Maybe it's because > Buffy didn't use the "it's a gut instinct" argument. Oh and in-between > Willow is declared the most powerful Witch ever. I'd complain about how > she once was supposed to be only fairly weak because she wasn't a > natural born witch bu then I remember Season sucks and I don't want to, > so I won't dwell on it. > > So we move on the school. Everyone splits up, sits down, weak humans > above. Not guarding the exit fo the seal. You know where they could take > the ���bies on one by one but as far away from each other as possible. > Sure. Oh and they put Anya/Andrew in one team and Wood/Giles in another. > Because it always makes sense to have one completely weak side and one > side with trained fighters. Moving on again.... > > We then get a huge fight between basically everyone and the ���bies. > Remember when Buffy had humongous difficulty fighting one ���bervamp? Well > as we already saw last week, that must have been the end level boss > getting confused, because these one are so weak Human!Anya, Xander and > Dawn > have no trouble slaying them. > > Which brings me to my next plot hole. If they didn't know what the > medallion was going to do, what was the plan? Spend a couple of days > killing the 20.000 ���bie's? And what if there where a couple of million, > you know, the kind of number you'd need to actually successfully invade > earth? > > Meanwhile, Willow gives all the SiT's (including a number of younger > ones around the globe) Slayer powers giving her white hair. (Avilicious? > ME? Never). Shortly after almost everyone gets mortally wounded. Buffy > dramatically falls to the ground after being stabbed through the back, > only to get taunted by First!Buffy. This pisses her off so much, she > returns from the (almost) dead for the 34th time in a blaze of > Staple!Actionmovie! glory. And apparently everyone feels the same way > since they rise up as well. > > Er.... I know I shouldn't ask this but, did they all die and then get > better? Is it the newfangled Axe!Scythe!Slayerpowers? Is it mind over > matter (unlikely in Buffy's case) Is it their wheatie breakfast? No one > knows. I'm starting to wonder if MN thought up the plot to this one. > > Anyway, Spike's medallion doubles as electroshock therapy and he > discovers he really has a soul. He announces it to the world. "My Soul, > it's really there" Which is good to know since apart from Buffy's > endless affirmation that he ws different it was hard to tell. > > Meanwhile, Anya dies. > > No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ > Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to > say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to > her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she > dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way > that you can't actually tell. > > Back in Mordor, Spike's Amulet of Yendor (so that's what it does!) > starts a light house routine and destroys the ���bies al around. A badly > stabbed Wood drives the get-away car. Which makes sense, since it's > unlikely he'll die and drive against a wall or anything, right? > > After some driving away, they stop and watch the crater where once was > Sunnydale. > > Then we get some heartfelt agonizing over Anya: "She died saving my > life" > "That's my girl. Always doing the stupid thing" Ah yes, such a wonderful > way to end this relationship which it now seems was dragged out for no > particular reason except the fact that they didn't know what to use > Xander or Anya for. > > Giles asks who made the big crater. Buffy: "Spike". Erm... no, the > MacGuffin Medallion did it Buffy. > > BTW it should be interesting to see how in the world they will explain > Spike being on _Angel_ since be pretty much burned up, instead of diving > into a portal like the spoilers > said. (and when I say interesting I mean it in a "Oh my Osiris, what > sort of horrible monstrosity will they come with!" way) > > Next we get the gang cracks some silly joke about malls being destroyed. > It's too bad Anya just died a few fucking minutes ago (plus I assume a > at least a couple of SiT's) but I'm glad we can crack jokes about. > > The gang asks Buffy what she is going to do now that there are hundreds, > perhaps thousands of Slayers. She gives a creepy smile ...... and End. > That was Buffy the Vampire Slyer. Aren't you all glad you stuck with the > show for all these years? > > You know I had some small hope left. Seemed silly after 4+ years of > disappointment, but it was there. Not a lot of hope. Certainly not that > this ep would would fix all the problems the show has build up over the > last few years. Just that this would be decent episode that would make > me remember why I used to love this series. This wasn't it. But that's > good. Now I can finally let go. > > > Some loose ends: > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > series. That really just > says it all. > > - Ok a First Moron Recap: What was his plan? Why was Caleb going to do?, > was "From beneath you it Devours" supposed to mean the ���bies? (in which > case, very silly phrase), why did FE give Spike a a trigger (it > certainly wasn't to stop him using the medallion since > a) Buffy didn't have it, she didn't even know about it and > b) There's Angel.) > What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and > then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? > What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing > Everyone keeps mentioning? > > At least they had a good reason for having all those people flee. Oh I > forgot, they didn't. They just had them leave for no good reason so they > could have there cool moment of a city being destroyed without all the > pesky realism of it being sad because people where dying. You know like > a CNN war. > > - "If this thing blows the world could be next, I need a second front" > (actually that would be a fall back line, a second front would involve > Angel actually fighting at the same time as the rest of them. But lets > not point out Joss's or Buffy's lack of understanding of the military. > We've had enough of that all season) > > - No follow up between Dawn and Xander. A throwaway moment between Buffy > and Dawn. So what was the point of that whole escapade, apart from > making Xander look both like a no brain minion of Buffy and a weakling > who gets overpowered by 16 year olds? > > - No mention of the CoW being destroyed. Seems somewhat important now > that there are hundreds of Slayers to track down and instruct. > > Some Good things: > > - "He had to split. Whaahahha" Buffy finally cracking up after one of > her punny Slayer lines. > > - Giles playing D&D > > - "The Earth is definitely doomed" and "There's another [hellmouth] in > Cleveland" Continuity = good. > > - "Think happy things [..] bunnies" "Bunnies. Happy. Floppy eared. > Bunnies" Die hard Anya rules! > > - The Music > > - the whole "You know I started it. The whole having a soul...." Angel > speech. > > Other Bad things: > > - the whole "You know I started it. The whole having a soul...." Angel > speech. Highly inappropriate timing. > > - "Part in my eye-socket and everyone is invited. Sometimes I shouldn't > say words" Well I guess even Joss likes making Xander be an idiot now. > > > > Ben I hoped this beeing the last episode ever would stop the prejudice whining. Guess it didn't. But on the bright side, at least it will be the last whining. :) You're in luck, you'll never have to watch again.

2003-05-20 00:29:47+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (slauerrr <slauerrr@hotmail.com>)


"Ben Anspach" <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com... > Sweet holly mother of Zeus, can't wait for the TWoP recap on this one. > At least I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy that. > > Remember when Joss would write really great episodes filled with plot > and great characters interaction both? Well this isn't one of them. This > has more holes and more threads thrown into the wind than cut up 16th > century fishnet. > > It does have the classic lines we've all grown so incredibly fond of: > > - "But he has a soul know" > > - "Champion" "ChampionChampionChampionChampionChampion" (And here you > though only _Angel_ suffered from this one) > > So where to begin? How about Angel. After disposing of Caleb, Buffy is > filled in by Angel on his Cliff Notes On The Apocalypse (Now With A Toy > Present Medallion With Every filofolder!) and offers to help her fight. > > Remember "I need Spike around 'cause he's the strongest fighter" we have > Buffy? Well when Angel comes over it's "I need you to go away, 'cause > your a strong fighter". > > I guess we should at least be happy that Angel's cross over was true to > all the other Buffy/Angel crossovers: a minimal appearance that was > absolutely pointless. > > Well not entirely pointless, he does bring over the amulet. > > "Behold! The Amulet of Macguffin! A trinket that comes out of nowhere, > is really important, and can only be worn by a super powerful being with > a soul. But not Buffy. Or Angel. Or Faith." > > Oh hell, just engrave the anvil with "Spike's big prop" and be done with > it. Truly, on the day the word MacGuffin was reinvented we stood in awe > and watched. > > Then we get to spend 5 minutes of screentime, almost 10% of the *entire* > *final* episode of _Buffy_ on a Dawson's Creek moment; Angel wants to > know about Spike and Spike want to know about Angel. The fact that Angel > even mentions that it's very DC doesn't help anymore than it helped them > when Andrew agreed that Buffy's speeches are boring. Buffy actually > apologizes for kissing Angel. And explains how much tongue was > involved. > > After some more quality vampire nap time (it's really good for the skin) > it's time for the moral of the evening. First!Buffy comes to tell Buffy > (again) that she will die alone. Which of course gives her a brilliant > idea (Run for hills!). > > You know, this would have been nice sentiment if it hadn't been taken so > literally. It's nice and all that there will be hundreds of Slayers all > over the world, but from the character/emotional side, the point > is/should be that she isn't alone because she has her friends. It's a > pity then that we don't actually get to see her re-connect with those > friends. But then those kind of scenes have been passported all season > so why start now? > > Any way, Next morning Buffy lays down her sagacious plan: They will open > the seal into the hellmouth and attack the ���bervamps. > > *sigh* > > Ok number one: since when is the seal a way to the hellmouth? Last I > recall the hellmouth opened up to tentacle monster dimension (which > makes sense considering it's underneath a High School, albeit without > school uniforms). But fine we can scrap that one to Buffy, since she's > not > too bright. > > Two: I know I've whined about this before on the group but seeing as > this was the final episode and it didn't explain anything I feel I can > whine full out: *WHY*? > > Caleb's dead. The seal is... well Sealed. And you can't kill FE because > it's not only incorporeal but is also a manifestation of all evil in the > world, even if it's dumber than the most stupid Bond villain. So at this > point in the episode it's not more of a threat than before this whole > season started and at the end of this episode it isn't any less of a > threat. > > Anyway, moving on, this time everyone thinks this plan to get them all > killed for no good reason is the bested plan ever. Maybe it's because > Buffy didn't use the "it's a gut instinct" argument. Oh and in-between > Willow is declared the most powerful Witch ever. I'd complain about how > she once was supposed to be only fairly weak because she wasn't a > natural born witch bu then I remember Season sucks and I don't want to, > so I won't dwell on it. > > So we move on the school. Everyone splits up, sits down, weak humans > above. Not guarding the exit fo the seal. You know where they could take > the ���bies on one by one but as far away from each other as possible. > Sure. Oh and they put Anya/Andrew in one team and Wood/Giles in another. > Because it always makes sense to have one completely weak side and one > side with trained fighters. Moving on again.... > > We then get a huge fight between basically everyone and the ���bies. > Remember when Buffy had humongous difficulty fighting one ���bervamp? Well > as we already saw last week, that must have been the end level boss > getting confused, because these one are so weak Human!Anya, Xander and > Dawn > have no trouble slaying them. > > Which brings me to my next plot hole. If they didn't know what the > medallion was going to do, what was the plan? Spend a couple of days > killing the 20.000 ���bie's? And what if there where a couple of million, > you know, the kind of number you'd need to actually successfully invade > earth? > > Meanwhile, Willow gives all the SiT's (including a number of younger > ones around the globe) Slayer powers giving her white hair. (Avilicious? > ME? Never). Shortly after almost everyone gets mortally wounded. Buffy > dramatically falls to the ground after being stabbed through the back, > only to get taunted by First!Buffy. This pisses her off so much, she > returns from the (almost) dead for the 34th time in a blaze of > Staple!Actionmovie! glory. And apparently everyone feels the same way > since they rise up as well. > > Er.... I know I shouldn't ask this but, did they all die and then get > better? Is it the newfangled Axe!Scythe!Slayerpowers? Is it mind over > matter (unlikely in Buffy's case) Is it their wheatie breakfast? No one > knows. I'm starting to wonder if MN thought up the plot to this one. > > Anyway, Spike's medallion doubles as electroshock therapy and he > discovers he really has a soul. He announces it to the world. "My Soul, > it's really there" Which is good to know since apart from Buffy's > endless affirmation that he ws different it was hard to tell. > > Meanwhile, Anya dies. > > No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ > Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to > say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to > her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she > dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way > that you can't actually tell. > > Back in Mordor, Spike's Amulet of Yendor (so that's what it does!) > starts a light house routine and destroys the ���bies al around. A badly > stabbed Wood drives the get-away car. Which makes sense, since it's > unlikely he'll die and drive against a wall or anything, right? > > After some driving away, they stop and watch the crater where once was > Sunnydale. > > Then we get some heartfelt agonizing over Anya: "She died saving my > life" > "That's my girl. Always doing the stupid thing" Ah yes, such a wonderful > way to end this relationship which it now seems was dragged out for no > particular reason except the fact that they didn't know what to use > Xander or Anya for. > > Giles asks who made the big crater. Buffy: "Spike". Erm... no, the > MacGuffin Medallion did it Buffy. > > BTW it should be interesting to see how in the world they will explain > Spike being on _Angel_ since be pretty much burned up, instead of diving > into a portal like the spoilers > said. (and when I say interesting I mean it in a "Oh my Osiris, what > sort of horrible monstrosity will they come with!" way) > > Next we get the gang cracks some silly joke about malls being destroyed. > It's too bad Anya just died a few fucking minutes ago (plus I assume a > at least a couple of SiT's) but I'm glad we can crack jokes about. > > The gang asks Buffy what she is going to do now that there are hundreds, > perhaps thousands of Slayers. She gives a creepy smile ...... and End. > That was Buffy the Vampire Slyer. Aren't you all glad you stuck with the > show for all these years? > > You know I had some small hope left. Seemed silly after 4+ years of > disappointment, but it was there. Not a lot of hope. Certainly not that > this ep would would fix all the problems the show has build up over the > last few years. Just that this would be decent episode that would make > me remember why I used to love this series. This wasn't it. But that's > good. Now I can finally let go. > > > Some loose ends: > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > series. That really just > says it all. > > - Ok a First Moron Recap: What was his plan? Why was Caleb going to do?, > was "From beneath you it Devours" supposed to mean the ���bies? (in which > case, very silly phrase), why did FE give Spike a a trigger (it > certainly wasn't to stop him using the medallion since > a) Buffy didn't have it, she didn't even know about it and > b) There's Angel.) > What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and > then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? > What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing > Everyone keeps mentioning? > > At least they had a good reason for having all those people flee. Oh I > forgot, they didn't. They just had them leave for no good reason so they > could have there cool moment of a city being destroyed without all the > pesky realism of it being sad because people where dying. You know like > a CNN war. > > - "If this thing blows the world could be next, I need a second front" > (actually that would be a fall back line, a second front would involve > Angel actually fighting at the same time as the rest of them. But lets > not point out Joss's or Buffy's lack of understanding of the military. > We've had enough of that all season) > > - No follow up between Dawn and Xander. A throwaway moment between Buffy > and Dawn. So what was the point of that whole escapade, apart from > making Xander look both like a no brain minion of Buffy and a weakling > who gets overpowered by 16 year olds? > > - No mention of the CoW being destroyed. Seems somewhat important now > that there are hundreds of Slayers to track down and instruct. > > Some Good things: > > - "He had to split. Whaahahha" Buffy finally cracking up after one of > her punny Slayer lines. > > - Giles playing D&D > > - "The Earth is definitely doomed" and "There's another [hellmouth] in > Cleveland" Continuity = good. > > - "Think happy things [..] bunnies" "Bunnies. Happy. Floppy eared. > Bunnies" Die hard Anya rules! > > - The Music > > - the whole "You know I started it. The whole having a soul...." Angel > speech. > > Other Bad things: > > - the whole "You know I started it. The whole having a soul...." Angel > speech. Highly inappropriate timing. > > - "Part in my eye-socket and everyone is invited. Sometimes I shouldn't > say words" Well I guess even Joss likes making Xander be an idiot now. > > > > Ben I hoped this beeing the last episode ever would stop the prejudice whining. Guess it didn't. But on the bright side, at least it will be the last whining. :) You're in luck, you'll never have to watch again.

2003-05-20 00:35:17+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


<snip article> (please cut unnecessary quoting) > I hoped this beeing the last episode ever would stop the prejudice whining. > Guess it didn't. I assume with prejudice whining you mean I haven't seen the ep? I have. It disappointed. I wrote. It's pretty much the point of the newsgroup. > But on the bright side, at least it will be the last whining. :) > You're in luck, you'll never have to watch again. I am quite pleased about that, yes. Ben

2003-05-20 00:35:17+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


<snip article> (please cut unnecessary quoting) > I hoped this beeing the last episode ever would stop the prejudice whining. > Guess it didn't. I assume with prejudice whining you mean I haven't seen the ep? I have. It disappointed. I wrote. It's pretty much the point of the newsgroup. > But on the bright side, at least it will be the last whining. :) > You're in luck, you'll never have to watch again. I am quite pleased about that, yes. Ben

2003-05-20 00:44:24+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (slauerrr <slauerrr@hotmail.com>)


"Ben Anspach" <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3EC95C25.FDE460E3@hotmail.com... > <snip article> > > (please cut unnecessary quoting) > > > I hoped this beeing the last episode ever would stop the prejudice whining. > > Guess it didn't. > > I assume with prejudice whining you mean I haven't seen the ep? I have. > It disappointed. I wrote. It's pretty much the point of the newsgroup. > > > But on the bright side, at least it will be the last whining. :) > > You're in luck, you'll never have to watch again. > > I am quite pleased about that, yes. > > Ben I have seen the episode, and it was all it could be, after a lackluster season. I just mean that this is the end, and it's a good one. I expected more from this last season, but the finale was all that it could and should be, and I think it's time to stop wallowing over the chances this season had, and just respect a good finale. Or are you gonna tell me, that with the material the season gave it, this wasn't a good finale? If so, then I'm officially stunned.

2003-05-20 00:44:24+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (slauerrr <slauerrr@hotmail.com>)


"Ben Anspach" <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3EC95C25.FDE460E3@hotmail.com... > <snip article> > > (please cut unnecessary quoting) > > > I hoped this beeing the last episode ever would stop the prejudice whining. > > Guess it didn't. > > I assume with prejudice whining you mean I haven't seen the ep? I have. > It disappointed. I wrote. It's pretty much the point of the newsgroup. > > > But on the bright side, at least it will be the last whining. :) > > You're in luck, you'll never have to watch again. > > I am quite pleased about that, yes. > > Ben I have seen the episode, and it was all it could be, after a lackluster season. I just mean that this is the end, and it's a good one. I expected more from this last season, but the finale was all that it could and should be, and I think it's time to stop wallowing over the chances this season had, and just respect a good finale. Or are you gonna tell me, that with the material the season gave it, this wasn't a good finale? If so, then I'm officially stunned.

2003-05-20 00:51:58+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (slauerrr <slauerrr@hotmail.com>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030519184644.14518.00000386@mb-m03.aol.com... > Slauerr wrote: > > > > >I hoped this beeing the last episode ever >would stop the prejudice whining. > > Nor did it stop you from quoting 17 paragraphs just to make a comment about the > post in general rather than specific points amongst the 17 paragraphs. Buffy's over. All netiquettes are gone. It's pure chaos now. I've been polite for two years now in this group. You could cut me some slack, given the emotional state I'm in... :(

2003-05-20 00:51:58+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (slauerrr <slauerrr@hotmail.com>)


"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message news:20030519184644.14518.00000386@mb-m03.aol.com... > Slauerr wrote: > > > > >I hoped this beeing the last episode ever >would stop the prejudice whining. > > Nor did it stop you from quoting 17 paragraphs just to make a comment about the > post in general rather than specific points amongst the 17 paragraphs. Buffy's over. All netiquettes are gone. It's pure chaos now. I've been polite for two years now in this group. You could cut me some slack, given the emotional state I'm in... :(

2003-05-20 01:14:59+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


slauerrr wrote: > > I have seen the episode, and it was all it could be, after a lackluster > season. > I just mean that this is the end, and it's a good one. > I expected more from this last season, but the finale was all that it could > and should be, and I think it's time to stop wallowing over the chances this > season had, and just respect a good finale. > Or are you gonna tell me, that with the material the season gave it, this > wasn't a good finale? If so, then I'm officially stunned. Well prepare to be stunned. Yes I don't think this was a good finale. First of all I don't grade on a curve. Second this whole season screamed "Just wait until you see what we cooked up". Or at least that is how I choose interpret the whole "lets sit around for 10 episodes doing almost nothing" during the middle of the season. I assumed that ME once again hand the idea for some big finish and hadn't thought out how to get there. But most importantly are two things. One I expected better from Joss Wheadon. No I'm not one of those who think he's a god among writers. I thought _Family_ was quite bad and that _The Body_ is greatly overrated. But I do think he has a good handle on both the characters and the their interaction. And I assumed he would like to give the show that really gave him his rise to glory a nice send off. The other is that I do think this episode could have been better. I've summed up half a dozen plot holes in the episode that have little to nothing to do with what has gone on before. The show wasted valuable screen time on the secondary and tertiary characters. Yes the set-up sucked (and ME was there for the whole time. At worst they could have done damage control in the last few eps) but in that case you can pull out the emergency break. I'd complain about ignoring past plotholes just as much, but I would have liked the ep so much better. I guess in the end the problem is that I always felt Buffy was really about the core four. And this episode wasn't. Perhaps that's my problem, but I'd say it's a valid complaint nonetheless. Ben

2003-05-20 01:14:59+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


slauerrr wrote: > > I have seen the episode, and it was all it could be, after a lackluster > season. > I just mean that this is the end, and it's a good one. > I expected more from this last season, but the finale was all that it could > and should be, and I think it's time to stop wallowing over the chances this > season had, and just respect a good finale. > Or are you gonna tell me, that with the material the season gave it, this > wasn't a good finale? If so, then I'm officially stunned. Well prepare to be stunned. Yes I don't think this was a good finale. First of all I don't grade on a curve. Second this whole season screamed "Just wait until you see what we cooked up". Or at least that is how I choose interpret the whole "lets sit around for 10 episodes doing almost nothing" during the middle of the season. I assumed that ME once again hand the idea for some big finish and hadn't thought out how to get there. But most importantly are two things. One I expected better from Joss Wheadon. No I'm not one of those who think he's a god among writers. I thought _Family_ was quite bad and that _The Body_ is greatly overrated. But I do think he has a good handle on both the characters and the their interaction. And I assumed he would like to give the show that really gave him his rise to glory a nice send off. The other is that I do think this episode could have been better. I've summed up half a dozen plot holes in the episode that have little to nothing to do with what has gone on before. The show wasted valuable screen time on the secondary and tertiary characters. Yes the set-up sucked (and ME was there for the whole time. At worst they could have done damage control in the last few eps) but in that case you can pull out the emergency break. I'd complain about ignoring past plotholes just as much, but I would have liked the ep so much better. I guess in the end the problem is that I always felt Buffy was really about the core four. And this episode wasn't. Perhaps that's my problem, but I'd say it's a valid complaint nonetheless. Ben

2003-05-20 02:16:33+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


Rose wrote: > > Ben wrote: > > > >I guess in the end the problem is that I always felt Buffy was really > >about the core four. > > With all due respect, I don't think that's been true since S4, in which Riley > was the true protagonist because he was lead character who underwent true > change. S5 featured Dawn, Tara and Spike more than Xander in terms of story > importance. S6 was about Buffy and Willow, with Giles gone and Xander having a > backgroundie subplot. (Tara and Spike were props in S6... props with a lot of > lines.) S7 was about the SITs and Spike more than about Xander or Giles, with > Willow and Kennedy coming in third to SITs and Spike. . > S1-S3 was The Core Four. S4 ended that forever. > Oh I know. That is my ultimate shame. I've been watching Buffy on and off for 4 years because of little glimpses of the old interplay. but mostly because of hope. The hope that at some point, next episode, next season, at the end of the series, we would get at least some of the old interplay back. THat some, certainly not all but some, of the old threads would be picked up. That JW was even 10% as good as the fanboys have said he was. It's been an excruciating experience, even more so as a Xanderista. But on wit's clear there's isn't going to be a better tomorrow this is it. I've wondered at times why I was able to stop watching the X-files completely by season 6, even though there where still the occasional high point, but had to continue watching at least some eps of every season, including six, of Buffy. Time to move to egypt. Ben "To bad Buffy was cancelled after season 3, it's later season could have been so good" Anspach

2003-05-20 02:16:33+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


Rose wrote: > > Ben wrote: > > > >I guess in the end the problem is that I always felt Buffy was really > >about the core four. > > With all due respect, I don't think that's been true since S4, in which Riley > was the true protagonist because he was lead character who underwent true > change. S5 featured Dawn, Tara and Spike more than Xander in terms of story > importance. S6 was about Buffy and Willow, with Giles gone and Xander having a > backgroundie subplot. (Tara and Spike were props in S6... props with a lot of > lines.) S7 was about the SITs and Spike more than about Xander or Giles, with > Willow and Kennedy coming in third to SITs and Spike. . > S1-S3 was The Core Four. S4 ended that forever. > Oh I know. That is my ultimate shame. I've been watching Buffy on and off for 4 years because of little glimpses of the old interplay. but mostly because of hope. The hope that at some point, next episode, next season, at the end of the series, we would get at least some of the old interplay back. THat some, certainly not all but some, of the old threads would be picked up. That JW was even 10% as good as the fanboys have said he was. It's been an excruciating experience, even more so as a Xanderista. But on wit's clear there's isn't going to be a better tomorrow this is it. I've wondered at times why I was able to stop watching the X-files completely by season 6, even though there where still the occasional high point, but had to continue watching at least some eps of every season, including six, of Buffy. Time to move to egypt. Ben "To bad Buffy was cancelled after season 3, it's later season could have been so good" Anspach

2003-05-20 02:21:13+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


mrsfrench wrote: > > > I think Joss is creatively tapped out, is still in mourning over Firefly > being cancelled (I think that did some serious damage to his overrated > opinion of himself) and he saw writing the last EP as a chore. I mean > really, if this is the grand finale, the ending of a critically acclaimed > television series that's touted for it's writing more than anything, > wouldn't you expect better? Cookie dough analogies? The two most > interesting characters dying horrible and in Anya's case senseless deaths? > I mean why not kill off Dawn? Why Not? I ask you once again - why not > Dawn? Joss needs a long vacation. Gods, I forgot about the horrible cookie dough metaphor. Yeah, I think you're probably right. I think he invested a tremendous amount of energy and emotion into Firefly, and I get the feeling he really thought it was fantastic. And it's been clear for years he isn't really all that interested in _Buffy_ anymore. I wonder if the only reason he could get so enthused about _Once More, With feeling_ was the idea of writing a musical. Overall it makes me glad the animated series died and that _Ripper_ is in pre-production hell. Ben

2003-05-20 02:21:13+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


mrsfrench wrote: > > > I think Joss is creatively tapped out, is still in mourning over Firefly > being cancelled (I think that did some serious damage to his overrated > opinion of himself) and he saw writing the last EP as a chore. I mean > really, if this is the grand finale, the ending of a critically acclaimed > television series that's touted for it's writing more than anything, > wouldn't you expect better? Cookie dough analogies? The two most > interesting characters dying horrible and in Anya's case senseless deaths? > I mean why not kill off Dawn? Why Not? I ask you once again - why not > Dawn? Joss needs a long vacation. Gods, I forgot about the horrible cookie dough metaphor. Yeah, I think you're probably right. I think he invested a tremendous amount of energy and emotion into Firefly, and I get the feeling he really thought it was fantastic. And it's been clear for years he isn't really all that interested in _Buffy_ anymore. I wonder if the only reason he could get so enthused about _Once More, With feeling_ was the idea of writing a musical. Overall it makes me glad the animated series died and that _Ripper_ is in pre-production hell. Ben

2003-05-20 04:33:20+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (HeKS <heks_@hotmail.com>)


"Ben Anspach" <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3EC974F9.A3FE94D2@hotmail.com... > mrsfrench wrote: > > > > > > I think Joss is creatively tapped out, is still in mourning over Firefly > > being cancelled (I think that did some serious damage to his overrated > > opinion of himself) and he saw writing the last EP as a chore. I mean > > really, if this is the grand finale, the ending of a critically acclaimed > > television series that's touted for it's writing more than anything, > > wouldn't you expect better? Cookie dough analogies? The two most > > interesting characters dying horrible and in Anya's case senseless deaths? > > I mean why not kill off Dawn? Why Not? I ask you once again - why not > > Dawn? Joss needs a long vacation. > > Gods, I forgot about the horrible cookie dough metaphor. > > Yeah, I think you're probably right. I think he invested a tremendous > amount of energy and emotion into Firefly, and I get the feeling he > really thought it was fantastic. And it's been clear for years he isn't > really all that interested in _Buffy_ anymore. I wonder if the only > reason he could get so enthused about _Once More, With feeling_ was the > idea of writing a musical. > > Overall it makes me glad the animated series died and that _Ripper_ is > in pre-production hell. > > Ben I think I'm possibly in Denial. I see what you're saying about the past 4 seasons. The show definitely lost the edge it had after S3. Though there were a few really great episodes afterwards (like HUSH). I did feel kinda disappointed by the finale. But I can't seem to fully admit it to myself. Stupid isn't it. I tell myself (and I don't think I'm entirely wrong) that there's still supposed to be a movie. If that's the case then it wouldn't work to resolve everything in the series. And a 2 hour big budget no commercials movie might be a much better way to end it for the fans than a 45 minute somewhat lackluster episode. That having been said, I found it annoying that not only did the ep not resolve EVERYTHING . . . it hardly resolved ANYTHING. And I hated the brief appearance of Angel because 1) in last weeks ep when he arrived he didn't seem like himself at all. 2) It was way too damn short. I think this season spiraled downhill and there wasn't much left that the finale could do to salvage that. I still hold my hopes for a good finale in a movie. On the flip side, I'm still thoroughly enjoying Angel and I'm interested in seeing what happens with it. HeKS

2003-05-20 04:33:20+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (HeKS <heks_@hotmail.com>)


"Ben Anspach" <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3EC974F9.A3FE94D2@hotmail.com... > mrsfrench wrote: > > > > > > I think Joss is creatively tapped out, is still in mourning over Firefly > > being cancelled (I think that did some serious damage to his overrated > > opinion of himself) and he saw writing the last EP as a chore. I mean > > really, if this is the grand finale, the ending of a critically acclaimed > > television series that's touted for it's writing more than anything, > > wouldn't you expect better? Cookie dough analogies? The two most > > interesting characters dying horrible and in Anya's case senseless deaths? > > I mean why not kill off Dawn? Why Not? I ask you once again - why not > > Dawn? Joss needs a long vacation. > > Gods, I forgot about the horrible cookie dough metaphor. > > Yeah, I think you're probably right. I think he invested a tremendous > amount of energy and emotion into Firefly, and I get the feeling he > really thought it was fantastic. And it's been clear for years he isn't > really all that interested in _Buffy_ anymore. I wonder if the only > reason he could get so enthused about _Once More, With feeling_ was the > idea of writing a musical. > > Overall it makes me glad the animated series died and that _Ripper_ is > in pre-production hell. > > Ben I think I'm possibly in Denial. I see what you're saying about the past 4 seasons. The show definitely lost the edge it had after S3. Though there were a few really great episodes afterwards (like HUSH). I did feel kinda disappointed by the finale. But I can't seem to fully admit it to myself. Stupid isn't it. I tell myself (and I don't think I'm entirely wrong) that there's still supposed to be a movie. If that's the case then it wouldn't work to resolve everything in the series. And a 2 hour big budget no commercials movie might be a much better way to end it for the fans than a 45 minute somewhat lackluster episode. That having been said, I found it annoying that not only did the ep not resolve EVERYTHING . . . it hardly resolved ANYTHING. And I hated the brief appearance of Angel because 1) in last weeks ep when he arrived he didn't seem like himself at all. 2) It was way too damn short. I think this season spiraled downhill and there wasn't much left that the finale could do to salvage that. I still hold my hopes for a good finale in a movie. On the flip side, I'm still thoroughly enjoying Angel and I'm interested in seeing what happens with it. HeKS

2003-05-20 06:42:52-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Brett Todd <btodd@NOSPAMripnet.com>)


"Don Sample" <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:190520032208582958%dsample@synapse.net... > Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It > never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > > > What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and > > then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? > > What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing > > Everyone keeps mentioning? > > See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer > relevant. We may never find out. How dramatically fulfilling! The Big Bad barely even appears in the finale. We never get to see what the plan really was, and all the "I'll be corporeal stuff" -- which was an obvious tease all along for a "Buffy vs. Buffy" fight -- came to nothing. None of it made any dramatic sense, and it hardly matched up with anything that went on earlier in the season. It's painfully obvious that this last episode was just hacked together and that the creators had no idea how to end this season since they were kept up in the air about what was going on with renewal/spinoff potential until after Xmas. This season was an absolute trainwreck. The last episode was just the capper on how awful the show could get. I've never been so disappointed in the ending of a TV show. I'd really like to forget that I ever watched the show. I used to defend Buffy to people, who thought it was a little girl's show. Now I just feel embarrassed that I devoted so much time to the thing over the past seven years. Whedon made fools of us all in the end. He just threw crap up onto the screen to get the show over with, paying no attention to anything that had been established in all the previous episodes this season. I can't even enjoy the early seasons now. I've bought the first two seasons on DVD and can't even bear to watch them. Maybe a year or two of the show being off the air will allow me to again enjoy what the show once was. Brett

2003-05-20 06:42:52-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Brett Todd <btodd@NOSPAMripnet.com>)


"Don Sample" <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:190520032208582958%dsample@synapse.net... > Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It > never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > > > What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and > > then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? > > What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing > > Everyone keeps mentioning? > > See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer > relevant. We may never find out. How dramatically fulfilling! The Big Bad barely even appears in the finale. We never get to see what the plan really was, and all the "I'll be corporeal stuff" -- which was an obvious tease all along for a "Buffy vs. Buffy" fight -- came to nothing. None of it made any dramatic sense, and it hardly matched up with anything that went on earlier in the season. It's painfully obvious that this last episode was just hacked together and that the creators had no idea how to end this season since they were kept up in the air about what was going on with renewal/spinoff potential until after Xmas. This season was an absolute trainwreck. The last episode was just the capper on how awful the show could get. I've never been so disappointed in the ending of a TV show. I'd really like to forget that I ever watched the show. I used to defend Buffy to people, who thought it was a little girl's show. Now I just feel embarrassed that I devoted so much time to the thing over the past seven years. Whedon made fools of us all in the end. He just threw crap up onto the screen to get the show over with, paying no attention to anything that had been established in all the previous episodes this season. I can't even enjoy the early seasons now. I've bought the first two seasons on DVD and can't even bear to watch them. Maybe a year or two of the show being off the air will allow me to again enjoy what the show once was. Brett

2003-05-20 14:33:35+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") >From: "Brett Todd" btodd@NOSPAMripnet.com >Date: 5/20/2003 3:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <aKudnTRg39h-m1ejXTWcqg@ripnet.com> > >"Don Sample" <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message >news:190520032208582958%dsample@synapse.net... >> Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It >> never got the chance to put its full plan into action. >> >> > What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and >> > then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? >> > What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing >> > Everyone keeps mentioning? >> >> See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer >> relevant. We may never find out. > >How dramatically fulfilling! The Big Bad barely even appears in the finale. >We never get to see what the plan really was, and all the "I'll be corporeal >stuff" -- which was an obvious tease all along for a "Buffy vs. Buffy" >fight -- came to nothing. I read in an interview that they were considering that and changed their minds, hence Caleb. Word to ME: your first instinct is usually the right one. See the Willow storyline in S6 for an illustration of this point. "I scorn your idea of love." Jane Eyre

2003-05-20 14:33:35+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") >From: "Brett Todd" btodd@NOSPAMripnet.com >Date: 5/20/2003 3:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <aKudnTRg39h-m1ejXTWcqg@ripnet.com> > >"Don Sample" <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message >news:190520032208582958%dsample@synapse.net... >> Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It >> never got the chance to put its full plan into action. >> >> > What was the point of Killing al those SiT's, blowing up the CoW and >> > then leaving Buffy alone for 10 episodes? >> > What was that big scary thing on the horizon? You know the thing >> > Everyone keeps mentioning? >> >> See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer >> relevant. We may never find out. > >How dramatically fulfilling! The Big Bad barely even appears in the finale. >We never get to see what the plan really was, and all the "I'll be corporeal >stuff" -- which was an obvious tease all along for a "Buffy vs. Buffy" >fight -- came to nothing. I read in an interview that they were considering that and changed their minds, hence Caleb. Word to ME: your first instinct is usually the right one. See the Willow storyline in S6 for an illustration of this point. "I scorn your idea of love." Jane Eyre

2003-05-20 17:21:49+09:30 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Elfbard <elfbard@iprimus.com.au>)


>I hoped this beeing the last episode ever would stop the prejudice whining. >Guess it didn't. >But on the bright side, at least it will be the last whining. :) >You're in luck, you'll never have to watch again. ... There are no hands in cyberspace and I must slap you...

2003-05-20 17:21:49+09:30 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Elfbard <elfbard@iprimus.com.au>)


>I hoped this beeing the last episode ever would stop the prejudice whining. >Guess it didn't. >But on the bright side, at least it will be the last whining. :) >You're in luck, you'll never have to watch again. ... There are no hands in cyberspace and I must slap you...

2003-05-21 08:52:27+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... [elided] > > "Behold! The Amulet of Macguffin! A trinket that comes out of nowhere, > is really important, and can only be worn by a super powerful being with > a soul. But not Buffy. Or Angel. Or Faith." > [elided] The amulet is not a true MacGuffin. A MacGuffin something we, the audience, never experience directly. It is an object of desire on the parts of the characters and even they may not be entirely clear on the concept of what that object is. A MacGuffin is, in essence, bait to lead on the audience and motivate the characters but like bait it may be ersatz and, so far as the story's resolution is concerned, even irrelevant. Alfred Hitchcock was fond of using a MacGuffin to propel forward his stories of espionage and intrigue. There were secret papers, scientific formulas, or microfilm that the characters coveted for one reason or another. But the contents of the secret papers or what have you were irrelevant to the audience. They just had to be there to get things going. Quentin Tarantino used a MacGuffin to great effect in Pulp Fiction. Remember the box that Jules and Vincent carried around with them throughout the movie? We never found out what was in the box, other than it had a golden glow on the visages of those who peered into the box. We were teased by it but we did not need to know what was inside the box. We only cared that Jules and Vincent were capable of going to extremes to keep hold of it. We do not understand what the amulet in "Chosen" is exactly, but it is not irrelevant to the story. It is certainly not irrelevant to Spike once it becomes active: it kills him. It also destroys the Sunnydale Hellmouth. So by the end of "Chosen," we not only know that the amulet is important, we know what it can do. The amulet is not a MacGuffin. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-21 08:52:27+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... [elided] > > "Behold! The Amulet of Macguffin! A trinket that comes out of nowhere, > is really important, and can only be worn by a super powerful being with > a soul. But not Buffy. Or Angel. Or Faith." > [elided] The amulet is not a true MacGuffin. A MacGuffin something we, the audience, never experience directly. It is an object of desire on the parts of the characters and even they may not be entirely clear on the concept of what that object is. A MacGuffin is, in essence, bait to lead on the audience and motivate the characters but like bait it may be ersatz and, so far as the story's resolution is concerned, even irrelevant. Alfred Hitchcock was fond of using a MacGuffin to propel forward his stories of espionage and intrigue. There were secret papers, scientific formulas, or microfilm that the characters coveted for one reason or another. But the contents of the secret papers or what have you were irrelevant to the audience. They just had to be there to get things going. Quentin Tarantino used a MacGuffin to great effect in Pulp Fiction. Remember the box that Jules and Vincent carried around with them throughout the movie? We never found out what was in the box, other than it had a golden glow on the visages of those who peered into the box. We were teased by it but we did not need to know what was inside the box. We only cared that Jules and Vincent were capable of going to extremes to keep hold of it. We do not understand what the amulet in "Chosen" is exactly, but it is not irrelevant to the story. It is certainly not irrelevant to Spike once it becomes active: it kills him. It also destroys the Sunnydale Hellmouth. So by the end of "Chosen," we not only know that the amulet is important, we know what it can do. The amulet is not a MacGuffin. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-21 09:08:38+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... [elided] > > Meanwhile, Anya dies. > > No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ > Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to > say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to > her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she > dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way > that you can't actually tell. > [elided] I do agree that it is not clear that Anya died saving Andrew. I think Andrew confabulated that for Xander's sake. I remarked elsewhere that although the fog of battle was great in this intense battle, Andrew was surrounded at the time the Bringer sliced Anya from her shoulder to her abdomen. So I think somehow, someway he saved himself. But saving Andrew or not, I thought Anya's death was heroic and meaningful. I think Anya made amends for her past in a way that was beyond her comprehension if you consider her state of mind in "Selfless." She cared enough for her friends and humanity to offer her life up in a last stand situation. Anya's and Andrew's conversation in the hospital during "End of Days" set up the reasons for her sacrifice quite well. Anya's actions are defined as gallant in my book. Her death was meaningful and I will miss this character. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-21 09:08:38+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... [elided] > > Meanwhile, Anya dies. > > No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ > Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to > say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to > her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she > dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way > that you can't actually tell. > [elided] I do agree that it is not clear that Anya died saving Andrew. I think Andrew confabulated that for Xander's sake. I remarked elsewhere that although the fog of battle was great in this intense battle, Andrew was surrounded at the time the Bringer sliced Anya from her shoulder to her abdomen. So I think somehow, someway he saved himself. But saving Andrew or not, I thought Anya's death was heroic and meaningful. I think Anya made amends for her past in a way that was beyond her comprehension if you consider her state of mind in "Selfless." She cared enough for her friends and humanity to offer her life up in a last stand situation. Anya's and Andrew's conversation in the hospital during "End of Days" set up the reasons for her sacrifice quite well. Anya's actions are defined as gallant in my book. Her death was meaningful and I will miss this character. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-21 13:29:25-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <MPG.1934e1f59eb5f26598a241@netnews.attbi.com>, Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in > article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... > [elided] > > > > Meanwhile, Anya dies. > > > > No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ > > Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to > > say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to > > her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she > > dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way > > that you can't actually tell. > > > [elided] > > I do agree that it is not clear that Anya died saving Andrew. I think > Andrew confabulated that for Xander's sake. I remarked elsewhere that > although the fog of battle was great in this intense battle, Andrew was > surrounded at the time the Bringer sliced Anya from her shoulder to her > abdomen. So I think somehow, someway he saved himself. > > But saving Andrew or not, I thought Anya's death was heroic and > meaningful. I think Anya made amends for her past in a way that was > beyond her comprehension if you consider her state of mind in > "Selfless." She cared enough for her friends and humanity to offer her > life up in a last stand situation. Anya's and Andrew's conversation in > the hospital during "End of Days" set up the reasons for her sacrifice > quite well. Anya's actions are defined as gallant in my book. Her > death was meaningful and I will miss this character. And even if you can't point to one incident on screen that is definately "Anya saves Andrew" (but I do think that they cut from a Bringer about to introduce Andrew to a knife, to Anya putting her sword through that Bringer's back, just before she herself gets stabbed) how long do you think he'd have lived if she wasn't there to draw some of the heat? -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-21 13:29:25-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <MPG.1934e1f59eb5f26598a241@netnews.attbi.com>, Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote: > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in > article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... > [elided] > > > > Meanwhile, Anya dies. > > > > No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ > > Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to > > say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to > > her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she > > dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way > > that you can't actually tell. > > > [elided] > > I do agree that it is not clear that Anya died saving Andrew. I think > Andrew confabulated that for Xander's sake. I remarked elsewhere that > although the fog of battle was great in this intense battle, Andrew was > surrounded at the time the Bringer sliced Anya from her shoulder to her > abdomen. So I think somehow, someway he saved himself. > > But saving Andrew or not, I thought Anya's death was heroic and > meaningful. I think Anya made amends for her past in a way that was > beyond her comprehension if you consider her state of mind in > "Selfless." She cared enough for her friends and humanity to offer her > life up in a last stand situation. Anya's and Andrew's conversation in > the hospital during "End of Days" set up the reasons for her sacrifice > quite well. Anya's actions are defined as gallant in my book. Her > death was meaningful and I will miss this character. And even if you can't point to one incident on screen that is definately "Anya saves Andrew" (but I do think that they cut from a Bringer about to introduce Andrew to a knife, to Anya putting her sword through that Bringer's back, just before she herself gets stabbed) how long do you think he'd have lived if she wasn't there to draw some of the heat? -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-21 15:41:33+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (danzig138 <danzig138@NOSPAMcox.net>)


Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3ECB84FB.9FE467E9@hotmail.com: > I might agree if there had been any attention paid to her death. Any > attention to what would turn out to be her last few moments with the > others (or Xander at the very least). And most of all if any of the > characters sowed any frelling grief over her death. By the end of the episode, the gang really hadn't had the time to spill a little for their homies. Frankly, I love that she didn't have a drawn out death scene, with dying words to Xander and crew. . .One of the things I like about Buffy, and Angel,is that sometimes, they show battle as brutal, violent, and quick. . .Anya's death was just that. An extended death scene is not automatically dramatic, nor necessary in some cases. The attention paid to her death was appropriate for the amount of time available. . .Xander tried to find her, but at some point, he had to leave, especially with someone pulling him along. When he speaks to Andrew about it, you can see the flash of pain on his face when he cracks a joke. . .Once the adrenalin quits flowing, I'm sure he will grieve in a more "proper" fashion. Sorry you didn't care for it, but I thought it was masterfully done. danzig138 "Buffy even knows that, and still she wouldn't take a human life. Because she's a hero, you see. She's not like us." ---Rupert Giles

2003-05-21 15:41:33+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (danzig138 <danzig138@NOSPAMcox.net>)


Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3ECB84FB.9FE467E9@hotmail.com: > I might agree if there had been any attention paid to her death. Any > attention to what would turn out to be her last few moments with the > others (or Xander at the very least). And most of all if any of the > characters sowed any frelling grief over her death. By the end of the episode, the gang really hadn't had the time to spill a little for their homies. Frankly, I love that she didn't have a drawn out death scene, with dying words to Xander and crew. . .One of the things I like about Buffy, and Angel,is that sometimes, they show battle as brutal, violent, and quick. . .Anya's death was just that. An extended death scene is not automatically dramatic, nor necessary in some cases. The attention paid to her death was appropriate for the amount of time available. . .Xander tried to find her, but at some point, he had to leave, especially with someone pulling him along. When he speaks to Andrew about it, you can see the flash of pain on his face when he cracks a joke. . .Once the adrenalin quits flowing, I'm sure he will grieve in a more "proper" fashion. Sorry you didn't care for it, but I thought it was masterfully done. danzig138 "Buffy even knows that, and still she wouldn't take a human life. Because she's a hero, you see. She's not like us." ---Rupert Giles

2003-05-21 15:54:03+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


Growltiger wrote: > > Ben Anspach wrote: > > Meanwhile, Anya dies. > > > > No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ > > Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to > > say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to > > her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she > > dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way > > that you can't actually tell. > I do agree that it is not clear that Anya died saving Andrew. I think > Andrew confabulated that for Xander's sake. I remarked elsewhere that > although the fog of battle was great in this intense battle, Andrew was > surrounded at the time the Bringer sliced Anya from her shoulder to her > abdomen. So I think somehow, someway he saved himself. Well, after watching the extremely brief scene a couple of times, this is what I think happens. Andrew slashes at a �bervamp, the �bie storms him and sort of holds him bent down. Another �bie draws a curved knife, ready to cut his head/ears/face off. Camera change to Anya who is immediately seen stabbing a �ntervamp, standing with her sword held up and is then cut down. The whole thing last literally 4 seconds. I'm not sure what is supposed to have happened. At first I thought the cut to Anya was meant to show her taking out the �ntervamp that was about to kill Andrew and that this is what Andrew meant at the end. The only problem is that the wall Andrew's standing before is the one he retreats to earlier when the Subvamps attack, which is to the left of the hallway, while Anya slashes to the right. perhaps it was just supposed to be something Andrew made up (Why?) or ME edited to create the impression that Anya had saved Andrew (but then why make it so unclear?) Either way the idiotically short sequence is very undignified for character that has been part of the show for over 4 years. > But saving Andrew or not, I thought Anya's death was heroic and > meaningful. I think Anya made amends for her past in a way that was > beyond her comprehension if you consider her state of mind in > "Selfless." She cared enough for her friends and humanity to offer her > life up in a last stand situation. Anya's and Andrew's conversation in > the hospital during "End of Days" set up the reasons for her sacrifice > quite well. Anya's actions are defined as gallant in my book. Her > death was meaningful and I will miss this character. I might agree if there had been any attention paid to her death. Any attention to what would turn out to be her last few moments with the others (or Xander at the very least). And most of all if any of the characters sowed any frelling grief over her death. Ben

2003-05-21 15:54:03+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


Growltiger wrote: > > Ben Anspach wrote: > > Meanwhile, Anya dies. > > > > No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ > > Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to > > say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to > > her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she > > dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way > > that you can't actually tell. > I do agree that it is not clear that Anya died saving Andrew. I think > Andrew confabulated that for Xander's sake. I remarked elsewhere that > although the fog of battle was great in this intense battle, Andrew was > surrounded at the time the Bringer sliced Anya from her shoulder to her > abdomen. So I think somehow, someway he saved himself. Well, after watching the extremely brief scene a couple of times, this is what I think happens. Andrew slashes at a �bervamp, the �bie storms him and sort of holds him bent down. Another �bie draws a curved knife, ready to cut his head/ears/face off. Camera change to Anya who is immediately seen stabbing a �ntervamp, standing with her sword held up and is then cut down. The whole thing last literally 4 seconds. I'm not sure what is supposed to have happened. At first I thought the cut to Anya was meant to show her taking out the �ntervamp that was about to kill Andrew and that this is what Andrew meant at the end. The only problem is that the wall Andrew's standing before is the one he retreats to earlier when the Subvamps attack, which is to the left of the hallway, while Anya slashes to the right. perhaps it was just supposed to be something Andrew made up (Why?) or ME edited to create the impression that Anya had saved Andrew (but then why make it so unclear?) Either way the idiotically short sequence is very undignified for character that has been part of the show for over 4 years. > But saving Andrew or not, I thought Anya's death was heroic and > meaningful. I think Anya made amends for her past in a way that was > beyond her comprehension if you consider her state of mind in > "Selfless." She cared enough for her friends and humanity to offer her > life up in a last stand situation. Anya's and Andrew's conversation in > the hospital during "End of Days" set up the reasons for her sacrifice > quite well. Anya's actions are defined as gallant in my book. Her > death was meaningful and I will miss this character. I might agree if there had been any attention paid to her death. Any attention to what would turn out to be her last few moments with the others (or Xander at the very least). And most of all if any of the characters sowed any frelling grief over her death. Ben

2003-05-21 16:04:01+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


Growltiger wrote: > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in > article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... > [elided] > > > > "Behold! The Amulet of Macguffin! A trinket that comes out of nowhere, > > is really important, and can only be worn by a super powerful being with > > a soul. But not Buffy. Or Angel. Or Faith." > > > [elided] > > The amulet is not a true MacGuffin. A MacGuffin something we, the > audience, never experience directly. It is an object of desire on the > parts of the characters and even they may not be entirely clear on the > concept of what that object is. A MacGuffin is, in essence, bait to > lead on the audience and motivate the characters but like bait it may be > ersatz and, so far as the story's resolution is concerned, even > irrelevant. > > Alfred Hitchcock was fond of using a MacGuffin to propel forward his > stories of espionage and intrigue. There were secret papers, scientific > formulas, or microfilm that the characters coveted for one reason or > another. But the contents of the secret papers or what have you were > irrelevant to the audience. They just had to be there to get things > going. Quentin Tarantino used a MacGuffin to great effect in Pulp > Fiction. Remember the box that Jules and Vincent carried around with > them throughout the movie? We never found out what was in the box, > other than it had a golden glow on the visages of those who peered into > the box. We were teased by it but we did not need to know what was > inside the box. We only cared that Jules and Vincent were capable of > going to extremes to keep hold of it. > > We do not understand what the amulet in "Chosen" is exactly, but it is > not irrelevant to the story. It is certainly not irrelevant to Spike > once it becomes active: it kills him. It also destroys the Sunnydale > Hellmouth. So by the end of "Chosen," we not only know that the amulet > is important, we know what it can do. The amulet is not a MacGuffin. The problem with language (and even more so with neologisms/slang) is that ultimately the meaning of words is defined by the majority. Very few people used "Decimated" as meaning "losing 10%". "Jumping the shark" has about three widely used definitions (The point after which a show started sucked, The point at which a show sucks so much it can't be saved, the point which really *shows* the show now sucks). And the correct usage of Deus Ex Machina is discussed almost every time anyone uses the term in educated company. What I'm trying to say is this; with "the amulet is a MacGuffin" I mean that it comes from, makes no sense and is only a means to an end. IT is part of the story, but not an organic part, it is forced into the story so the writers don't have to do too much thinking. Ben

2003-05-21 16:04:01+02:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com>)


Growltiger wrote: > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in > article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... > [elided] > > > > "Behold! The Amulet of Macguffin! A trinket that comes out of nowhere, > > is really important, and can only be worn by a super powerful being with > > a soul. But not Buffy. Or Angel. Or Faith." > > > [elided] > > The amulet is not a true MacGuffin. A MacGuffin something we, the > audience, never experience directly. It is an object of desire on the > parts of the characters and even they may not be entirely clear on the > concept of what that object is. A MacGuffin is, in essence, bait to > lead on the audience and motivate the characters but like bait it may be > ersatz and, so far as the story's resolution is concerned, even > irrelevant. > > Alfred Hitchcock was fond of using a MacGuffin to propel forward his > stories of espionage and intrigue. There were secret papers, scientific > formulas, or microfilm that the characters coveted for one reason or > another. But the contents of the secret papers or what have you were > irrelevant to the audience. They just had to be there to get things > going. Quentin Tarantino used a MacGuffin to great effect in Pulp > Fiction. Remember the box that Jules and Vincent carried around with > them throughout the movie? We never found out what was in the box, > other than it had a golden glow on the visages of those who peered into > the box. We were teased by it but we did not need to know what was > inside the box. We only cared that Jules and Vincent were capable of > going to extremes to keep hold of it. > > We do not understand what the amulet in "Chosen" is exactly, but it is > not irrelevant to the story. It is certainly not irrelevant to Spike > once it becomes active: it kills him. It also destroys the Sunnydale > Hellmouth. So by the end of "Chosen," we not only know that the amulet > is important, we know what it can do. The amulet is not a MacGuffin. The problem with language (and even more so with neologisms/slang) is that ultimately the meaning of words is defined by the majority. Very few people used "Decimated" as meaning "losing 10%". "Jumping the shark" has about three widely used definitions (The point after which a show started sucked, The point at which a show sucks so much it can't be saved, the point which really *shows* the show now sucks). And the correct usage of Deus Ex Machina is discussed almost every time anyone uses the term in educated company. What I'm trying to say is this; with "the amulet is a MacGuffin" I mean that it comes from, makes no sense and is only a means to an end. IT is part of the story, but not an organic part, it is forced into the story so the writers don't have to do too much thinking. Ben

2003-05-21 16:19:06+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Clotilde <Dodge@ev1.net>)


danzig138 <danzig138@NOSPAMcox.net> wrote: >Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in >news:3ECB84FB.9FE467E9@hotmail.com: > >> I might agree if there had been any attention paid to her death. Any >> attention to what would turn out to be her last few moments with the >> others (or Xander at the very least). And most of all if any of the >> characters sowed any frelling grief over her death. > >By the end of the episode, the gang really hadn't had the time to spill a >little for their homies. Frankly, I love that she didn't have a drawn out >death scene, with dying words to Xander and crew. . .One of the things I >like about Buffy, and Angel,is that sometimes, they show battle as >brutal, violent, and quick. . .Anya's death was just that. An extended >death scene is not automatically dramatic, nor necessary in some cases. >The attention paid to her death was appropriate for the amount of time >available. . .Xander tried to find her, but at some point, he had to >leave, especially with someone pulling him along. When he speaks to >Andrew about it, you can see the flash of pain on his face when he cracks >a joke. . .Once the adrenalin quits flowing, I'm sure he will grieve in a >more "proper" fashion. Sorry you didn't care for it, but I thought it was >masterfully done. > >danzig138 >"Buffy even knows that, and still she wouldn't take a human life. >Because she's a hero, you see. >She's not like us." >---Rupert Giles > > The one thing I especially liked about Anya's death was that speech where Andrew is trying to calm her down just before the fight. Think about your good space. Think about good things like bunny rabbits. And she gets all. Yeah. Bunny Rabbits. Fluffy. Little. Soft. Cotton tail. Wriggly in that hatred way. AND the final scene while jarring with her just lying there - she obviously had taken a lot of them with her. - - ��� is akin to dropping rose petals into the Grand Canyon and waiting to hear the boom. -Neil Gaiman

2003-05-21 16:19:06+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Clotilde <Dodge@ev1.net>)


danzig138 <danzig138@NOSPAMcox.net> wrote: >Ben Anspach <Anspenremove@hotmail.com> wrote in >news:3ECB84FB.9FE467E9@hotmail.com: > >> I might agree if there had been any attention paid to her death. Any >> attention to what would turn out to be her last few moments with the >> others (or Xander at the very least). And most of all if any of the >> characters sowed any frelling grief over her death. > >By the end of the episode, the gang really hadn't had the time to spill a >little for their homies. Frankly, I love that she didn't have a drawn out >death scene, with dying words to Xander and crew. . .One of the things I >like about Buffy, and Angel,is that sometimes, they show battle as >brutal, violent, and quick. . .Anya's death was just that. An extended >death scene is not automatically dramatic, nor necessary in some cases. >The attention paid to her death was appropriate for the amount of time >available. . .Xander tried to find her, but at some point, he had to >leave, especially with someone pulling him along. When he speaks to >Andrew about it, you can see the flash of pain on his face when he cracks >a joke. . .Once the adrenalin quits flowing, I'm sure he will grieve in a >more "proper" fashion. Sorry you didn't care for it, but I thought it was >masterfully done. > >danzig138 >"Buffy even knows that, and still she wouldn't take a human life. >Because she's a hero, you see. >She's not like us." >---Rupert Giles > > The one thing I especially liked about Anya's death was that speech where Andrew is trying to calm her down just before the fight. Think about your good space. Think about good things like bunny rabbits. And she gets all. Yeah. Bunny Rabbits. Fluffy. Little. Soft. Cotton tail. Wriggly in that hatred way. AND the final scene while jarring with her just lying there - she obviously had taken a lot of them with her. - - ��� is akin to dropping rose petals into the Grand Canyon and waiting to hear the boom. -Neil Gaiman

2003-05-21 17:16:12+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (stardreamer@mindspring.com)


In article <MPG.1934e1f59eb5f26598a241@netnews.attbi.com>, tyger@never.invalid says... > >Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in >article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... >[elided] >> >> Meanwhile, Anya dies. >> >> No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ >> Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to >> say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to >> her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she >> dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way >> that you can't actually tell. >> >[elided] > >I do agree that it is not clear that Anya died saving Andrew. I think >Andrew confabulated that for Xander's sake. I remarked elsewhere that >although the fog of battle was great in this intense battle, Andrew was >surrounded at the time the Bringer sliced Anya from her shoulder to her >abdomen. So I think somehow, someway he saved himself. I just re-watched that scene. The last thing Anya does before the Bringer's sword slices her apart is to take out one of the ones around Andrew. So his comment is, at worst, an exaggeration; I prefer to think of it as putting the strongest possible interpretation on what happened for Xander's sake. As to how Andrew was saved -- I suspect that this is a time-related issue, and that Anya went down only seconds before Spike lit up. It's hard to show a lot of things happening simultaneously when each one takes up screen time. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

2003-05-21 17:16:12+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (stardreamer@mindspring.com)


In article <MPG.1934e1f59eb5f26598a241@netnews.attbi.com>, tyger@never.invalid says... > >Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in >article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... >[elided] >> >> Meanwhile, Anya dies. >> >> No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ >> Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to >> say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to >> her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she >> dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way >> that you can't actually tell. >> >[elided] > >I do agree that it is not clear that Anya died saving Andrew. I think >Andrew confabulated that for Xander's sake. I remarked elsewhere that >although the fog of battle was great in this intense battle, Andrew was >surrounded at the time the Bringer sliced Anya from her shoulder to her >abdomen. So I think somehow, someway he saved himself. I just re-watched that scene. The last thing Anya does before the Bringer's sword slices her apart is to take out one of the ones around Andrew. So his comment is, at worst, an exaggeration; I prefer to think of it as putting the strongest possible interpretation on what happened for Xander's sake. As to how Andrew was saved -- I suspect that this is a time-related issue, and that Anya went down only seconds before Spike lit up. It's hard to show a lot of things happening simultaneously when each one takes up screen time. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

2003-05-21 18:02:31+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Clotilde <Dodge@ev1.net>)


stardreamer@mindspring.com (Lee S. Billings) wrote: >In article <MPG.1934e1f59eb5f26598a241@netnews.attbi.com>, tyger@never.invalid >says... >> >>Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in >>article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... >>[elided] >>> >>> Meanwhile, Anya dies. >>> >>> No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ >>> Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to >>> say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to >>> her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she >>> dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way >>> that you can't actually tell. >>> >>[elided] >> >>I do agree that it is not clear that Anya died saving Andrew. I think >>Andrew confabulated that for Xander's sake. I remarked elsewhere that >>although the fog of battle was great in this intense battle, Andrew was >>surrounded at the time the Bringer sliced Anya from her shoulder to her >>abdomen. So I think somehow, someway he saved himself. > >I just re-watched that scene. The last thing Anya does before the Bringer's >sword slices her apart is to take out one of the ones around Andrew. So his >comment is, at worst, an exaggeration; I prefer to think of it as putting the >strongest possible interpretation on what happened for Xander's sake. > >As to how Andrew was saved -- I suspect that this is a time-related issue, and >that Anya went down only seconds before Spike lit up. It's hard to show a lot >of things happening simultaneously when each one takes up screen time. > >Celine > >-- >Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat >"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." >-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_ > And even so, she took a lot of the bad guys with her. Of all the group she has always been the weakest fighter - except Andrew. - - ��� is akin to dropping rose petals into the Grand Canyon and waiting to hear the boom. -Neil Gaiman

2003-05-21 18:02:31+00:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Clotilde <Dodge@ev1.net>)


stardreamer@mindspring.com (Lee S. Billings) wrote: >In article <MPG.1934e1f59eb5f26598a241@netnews.attbi.com>, tyger@never.invalid >says... >> >>Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Anspenremove@hotmail.com wrote in >>article <3EC9540B.973E5559@hotmail.com>... >>[elided] >>> >>> Meanwhile, Anya dies. >>> >>> No reason, she just dies. Oh, and she dies because apparently 15+ >>> Slayers and a vamp can't defend one narrow staircase. Does she get to >>> say goodbye in any meaningful way? No. Is there any deeper meaning to >>> her death? No. Does she die Heroically? Well sort of. Supposedly she >>> dies saving Andrew (why? in Odins name why?) but it's shot in such a way >>> that you can't actually tell. >>> >>[elided] >> >>I do agree that it is not clear that Anya died saving Andrew. I think >>Andrew confabulated that for Xander's sake. I remarked elsewhere that >>although the fog of battle was great in this intense battle, Andrew was >>surrounded at the time the Bringer sliced Anya from her shoulder to her >>abdomen. So I think somehow, someway he saved himself. > >I just re-watched that scene. The last thing Anya does before the Bringer's >sword slices her apart is to take out one of the ones around Andrew. So his >comment is, at worst, an exaggeration; I prefer to think of it as putting the >strongest possible interpretation on what happened for Xander's sake. > >As to how Andrew was saved -- I suspect that this is a time-related issue, and >that Anya went down only seconds before Spike lit up. It's hard to show a lot >of things happening simultaneously when each one takes up screen time. > >Celine > >-- >Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat >"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." >-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_ > And even so, she took a lot of the bad guys with her. Of all the group she has always been the weakest fighter - except Andrew. - - ��� is akin to dropping rose petals into the Grand Canyon and waiting to hear the boom. -Neil Gaiman

2003-05-21 20:43:18-04:00 - RE: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - ("Julia M. White" <jmwhit02@mailbox.syr.edu>)


I disagree with you--I think that this season (as well as season 6) was brilliant--nothing in life is tied up in neat little packeages, so why should Buffy and Spike's relationship and the finale be any different? >===== Original Message From "slauerrr" <slauerrr@hotmail.com> ===== >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030519184644.14518.00000386@mb-m03.aol.com... >> Slauerr wrote: >> >> > >> >I hoped this beeing the last episode ever >would stop the prejudice >whining. >> >> Nor did it stop you from quoting 17 paragraphs just to make a comment >about the >> post in general rather than specific points amongst the 17 paragraphs. > >Buffy's over. All netiquettes are gone. It's pure chaos now. >I've been polite for two years now in this group. You could cut me some >slack, given the emotional state I'm in... :( >

2003-05-21 20:43:18-04:00 - RE: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - ("Julia M. White" <jmwhit02@mailbox.syr.edu>)


I disagree with you--I think that this season (as well as season 6) was brilliant--nothing in life is tied up in neat little packeages, so why should Buffy and Spike's relationship and the finale be any different? >===== Original Message From "slauerrr" <slauerrr@hotmail.com> ===== >"Rose" <fylmfan@aol.comspam> wrote in message >news:20030519184644.14518.00000386@mb-m03.aol.com... >> Slauerr wrote: >> >> > >> >I hoped this beeing the last episode ever >would stop the prejudice >whining. >> >> Nor did it stop you from quoting 17 paragraphs just to make a comment >about the >> post in general rather than specific points amongst the 17 paragraphs. > >Buffy's over. All netiquettes are gone. It's pure chaos now. >I've been polite for two years now in this group. You could cut me some >slack, given the emotional state I'm in... :( >

2003-05-22 08:02:58+00:00 - RE: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: RE: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") >From: "Julia M. White" jmwhit02@mailbox.syr.edu >Date: 5/21/2003 5:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <3EDC6D03@OrangeMail> > >I disagree with you--I think that this season (as well as season 6) was >brilliant--nothing in life is tied up in neat little packeages, so why >should >Buffy and Spike's relationship and the >finale be any different? There is always debate about how true to life drama should be. Some realism is good because it helps us relate and avoids cliches. Too much realism and it compromises the artistry of the work. Art is a reflection of life, not an exact reproduction of it. If all we wanted was real life we would just watch the news and documentaries. "God had tempered judgment with mercy." -- Jane Eyre

2003-05-22 08:02:58+00:00 - RE: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: RE: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") >From: "Julia M. White" jmwhit02@mailbox.syr.edu >Date: 5/21/2003 5:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <3EDC6D03@OrangeMail> > >I disagree with you--I think that this season (as well as season 6) was >brilliant--nothing in life is tied up in neat little packeages, so why >should >Buffy and Spike's relationship and the >finale be any different? There is always debate about how true to life drama should be. Some realism is good because it helps us relate and avoids cliches. Too much realism and it compromises the artistry of the work. Art is a reflection of life, not an exact reproduction of it. If all we wanted was real life we would just watch the news and documentaries. "God had tempered judgment with mercy." -- Jane Eyre

2003-05-22 11:29:45-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com>)


In article <3ECA1AC8.57401FD3@hotmail.com>, Anspenremove@hotmail.com says... > > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > Ben Anspach wrote: > > > > > > Some loose ends: > > > > > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > > > series. That really just > > > says it all. > > > > Watch it again. > > Yeah, I caught after some prodding. We turns his head. Cute. But it's > still a great metaphor for season 7/the finale; That's it? > > > Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It > > never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > > > See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer > > relevant. We may never find out. > > Yes, and that's the problem. We've had 22 episodes with a Big Bad that > never seemed to have a clear plan. Who consistently did stupid things > while the good guys waxed about how terrifying he was. All the time > people are told, "just wait until you see his plan, then it will make > sense". And then.... nothing. > > It's tremendously bad storytelling. The fact that ME decided to ignore > the mess they've created doesn't mean it suddenly makes sense It may be bad storytelling, but it's actually a logical way to fight a battle. Every season they end up waiting for the big bad's plan to start, and then attacking. Everything the First did was just a delaying action. (In addition to killing SITs.) Whereas, in reality, attacking first makes a lot more sense. And the *big* plan was obviously 'from beneath you, it devours'. That's what the Ubervamps were for...coming up from beneath to devour the town, when the First got enough of them. (And, obviously, at night.;) ) As for what the 'get rid of the slayers' plan was, we don't know. Presumably, that was just 'kill all the SITs'. -- Strip off the 'tg' or your email will be discarded.

2003-05-22 11:29:45-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com>)


In article <3ECA1AC8.57401FD3@hotmail.com>, Anspenremove@hotmail.com says... > > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > Ben Anspach wrote: > > > > > > Some loose ends: > > > > > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > > > series. That really just > > > says it all. > > > > Watch it again. > > Yeah, I caught after some prodding. We turns his head. Cute. But it's > still a great metaphor for season 7/the finale; That's it? > > > Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It > > never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > > > See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer > > relevant. We may never find out. > > Yes, and that's the problem. We've had 22 episodes with a Big Bad that > never seemed to have a clear plan. Who consistently did stupid things > while the good guys waxed about how terrifying he was. All the time > people are told, "just wait until you see his plan, then it will make > sense". And then.... nothing. > > It's tremendously bad storytelling. The fact that ME decided to ignore > the mess they've created doesn't mean it suddenly makes sense It may be bad storytelling, but it's actually a logical way to fight a battle. Every season they end up waiting for the big bad's plan to start, and then attacking. Everything the First did was just a delaying action. (In addition to killing SITs.) Whereas, in reality, attacking first makes a lot more sense. And the *big* plan was obviously 'from beneath you, it devours'. That's what the Ubervamps were for...coming up from beneath to devour the town, when the First got enough of them. (And, obviously, at night.;) ) As for what the 'get rid of the slayers' plan was, we don't know. Presumably, that was just 'kill all the SITs'. -- Strip off the 'tg' or your email will be discarded.

2003-05-22 11:53:52-05:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <MPG.1936b6f392757e7d989758@130.133.1.4>, David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com> wrote: > In article <3ECA1AC8.57401FD3@hotmail.com>, Anspenremove@hotmail.com > says... > > > > > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > Ben Anspach wrote: > > > > > > > > > Some loose ends: > > > > > > > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > > > > series. That really just > > > > says it all. > > > > > > Watch it again. > > > > Yeah, I caught after some prodding. We turns his head. Cute. But it's > > still a great metaphor for season 7/the finale; That's it? > > > > > Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It > > > never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > > > > > See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer > > > relevant. We may never find out. > > > > Yes, and that's the problem. We've had 22 episodes with a Big Bad that > > never seemed to have a clear plan. Who consistently did stupid things > > while the good guys waxed about how terrifying he was. All the time > > people are told, "just wait until you see his plan, then it will make > > sense". And then.... nothing. > > > > It's tremendously bad storytelling. The fact that ME decided to ignore > > the mess they've created doesn't mean it suddenly makes sense > > It may be bad storytelling, but it's actually a logical way to fight a > battle. Every season they end up waiting for the big bad's plan to start, > and then attacking. Everything the First did was just a delaying action. > (In addition to killing SITs.) > > Whereas, in reality, attacking first makes a lot more sense. > > And the *big* plan was obviously 'from beneath you, it devours'. That's > what the Ubervamps were for...coming up from beneath to devour the town, > when the First got enough of them. (And, obviously, at night.;) ) > > As for what the 'get rid of the slayers' plan was, we don't know. > Presumably, that was just 'kill all the SITs'. And bring attention to our masterful plan which the Slayer would never have noticed if we didn't blow up the Council of Watchers, try to murder all of the world's potentials and to top things off appear to all of her friends and family as dead realtives and saying "Boo!".

2003-05-22 11:53:52-05:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <MPG.1936b6f392757e7d989758@130.133.1.4>, David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com> wrote: > In article <3ECA1AC8.57401FD3@hotmail.com>, Anspenremove@hotmail.com > says... > > > > > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > Ben Anspach wrote: > > > > > > > > > Some loose ends: > > > > > > > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > > > > series. That really just > > > > says it all. > > > > > > Watch it again. > > > > Yeah, I caught after some prodding. We turns his head. Cute. But it's > > still a great metaphor for season 7/the finale; That's it? > > > > > Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It > > > never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > > > > > See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer > > > relevant. We may never find out. > > > > Yes, and that's the problem. We've had 22 episodes with a Big Bad that > > never seemed to have a clear plan. Who consistently did stupid things > > while the good guys waxed about how terrifying he was. All the time > > people are told, "just wait until you see his plan, then it will make > > sense". And then.... nothing. > > > > It's tremendously bad storytelling. The fact that ME decided to ignore > > the mess they've created doesn't mean it suddenly makes sense > > It may be bad storytelling, but it's actually a logical way to fight a > battle. Every season they end up waiting for the big bad's plan to start, > and then attacking. Everything the First did was just a delaying action. > (In addition to killing SITs.) > > Whereas, in reality, attacking first makes a lot more sense. > > And the *big* plan was obviously 'from beneath you, it devours'. That's > what the Ubervamps were for...coming up from beneath to devour the town, > when the First got enough of them. (And, obviously, at night.;) ) > > As for what the 'get rid of the slayers' plan was, we don't know. > Presumably, that was just 'kill all the SITs'. And bring attention to our masterful plan which the Slayer would never have noticed if we didn't blow up the Council of Watchers, try to murder all of the world's potentials and to top things off appear to all of her friends and family as dead realtives and saying "Boo!".

2003-05-25 11:20:34-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com>)


In article <a-C513E2.11535222052003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, a@a.edu says... > In article <MPG.1936b6f392757e7d989758@130.133.1.4>, > David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com> wrote: > > > In article <3ECA1AC8.57401FD3@hotmail.com>, Anspenremove@hotmail.com > > says... > > > > > > > > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > > > Ben Anspach wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Some loose ends: > > > > > > > > > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > > > > > series. That really just > > > > > says it all. > > > > > > > > Watch it again. > > > > > > Yeah, I caught after some prodding. We turns his head. Cute. But it's > > > still a great metaphor for season 7/the finale; That's it? > > > > > > > Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It > > > > never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > > > > > > > See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer > > > > relevant. We may never find out. > > > > > > Yes, and that's the problem. We've had 22 episodes with a Big Bad that > > > never seemed to have a clear plan. Who consistently did stupid things > > > while the good guys waxed about how terrifying he was. All the time > > > people are told, "just wait until you see his plan, then it will make > > > sense". And then.... nothing. > > > > > > It's tremendously bad storytelling. The fact that ME decided to ignore > > > the mess they've created doesn't mean it suddenly makes sense > > > > It may be bad storytelling, but it's actually a logical way to fight a > > battle. Every season they end up waiting for the big bad's plan to start, > > and then attacking. Everything the First did was just a delaying action. > > (In addition to killing SITs.) > > > > Whereas, in reality, attacking first makes a lot more sense. > > > > And the *big* plan was obviously 'from beneath you, it devours'. That's > > what the Ubervamps were for...coming up from beneath to devour the town, > > when the First got enough of them. (And, obviously, at night.;) ) > > > > As for what the 'get rid of the slayers' plan was, we don't know. > > Presumably, that was just 'kill all the SITs'. > > And bring attention to our masterful plan which the Slayer would never > have noticed if we didn't blow up the Council of Watchers, try to murder > all of the world's potentials and to top things off appear to all of her > friends and family as dead realtives and saying "Boo!". The problem was having two plans at once. There's no way to do the 'destroy the Slayer line by killing all the SITs' plan without the Slayer noticing. But that plan wasn't really important...that was just a side plan when the FE noticed that, hey, Buffy managed to screw the line up. Let's call this the DtSL (Destroy the Slayer Line) Plan. I, for one, think DtSL was just intended to be a distraction from the very start, or happen years down the line. If Buffy had followed what she normally did each season, she would have waited until the First attacked at the very last stage of this plan, then foiled it...and meanwhile the other place is completely ignored. Luckily, she *didn't* do this. And the only reason she noticed the *other* plan, the FBYID (From Beneath You It Devours) plan, was due to that magic Slayer box that showed her all the Ubervamps. That didn't have anything to do with the First Evil. Sure, you can argue that if she wasn't fighting the First she wouldn't have looked in the box, but she could have anyway, or just been informed in some other mythological way, like a Slayer Dream(TM). She really just looked in the box because she *got* the box. Now, ironically, the defense against DtSL (collect the SITS in one place) manage to be the offense against FBYID. But that wasn't really something the First could foresee. -- Strip off the 'tg' or your email will be discarded.

2003-05-25 11:20:34-04:00 - Re: It's all over. Thank the Gods (Spoilers for 7x22 "Chosen") - (David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com>)


In article <a-C513E2.11535222052003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, a@a.edu says... > In article <MPG.1936b6f392757e7d989758@130.133.1.4>, > David Cheatham <david@tg.creeknet.com> wrote: > > > In article <3ECA1AC8.57401FD3@hotmail.com>, Anspenremove@hotmail.com > > says... > > > > > > > > > Don Sample wrote: > > > > > > > > Ben Anspach wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Some loose ends: > > > > > > > > > > - There's no special Grrrr! Aarrg! for this. The final episode of the > > > > > series. That really just > > > > > says it all. > > > > > > > > Watch it again. > > > > > > Yeah, I caught after some prodding. We turns his head. Cute. But it's > > > still a great metaphor for season 7/the finale; That's it? > > > > > > > Buffy's plan to attack first preempted whatever plan the First had. It > > > > never got the chance to put its full plan into action. > > > > > > > See above. Buffy scuttled the First's plan. What it was is no longer > > > > relevant. We may never find out. > > > > > > Yes, and that's the problem. We've had 22 episodes with a Big Bad that > > > never seemed to have a clear plan. Who consistently did stupid things > > > while the good guys waxed about how terrifying he was. All the time > > > people are told, "just wait until you see his plan, then it will make > > > sense". And then.... nothing. > > > > > > It's tremendously bad storytelling. The fact that ME decided to ignore > > > the mess they've created doesn't mean it suddenly makes sense > > > > It may be bad storytelling, but it's actually a logical way to fight a > > battle. Every season they end up waiting for the big bad's plan to start, > > and then attacking. Everything the First did was just a delaying action. > > (In addition to killing SITs.) > > > > Whereas, in reality, attacking first makes a lot more sense. > > > > And the *big* plan was obviously 'from beneath you, it devours'. That's > > what the Ubervamps were for...coming up from beneath to devour the town, > > when the First got enough of them. (And, obviously, at night.;) ) > > > > As for what the 'get rid of the slayers' plan was, we don't know. > > Presumably, that was just 'kill all the SITs'. > > And bring attention to our masterful plan which the Slayer would never > have noticed if we didn't blow up the Council of Watchers, try to murder > all of the world's potentials and to top things off appear to all of her > friends and family as dead realtives and saying "Boo!". The problem was having two plans at once. There's no way to do the 'destroy the Slayer line by killing all the SITs' plan without the Slayer noticing. But that plan wasn't really important...that was just a side plan when the FE noticed that, hey, Buffy managed to screw the line up. Let's call this the DtSL (Destroy the Slayer Line) Plan. I, for one, think DtSL was just intended to be a distraction from the very start, or happen years down the line. If Buffy had followed what she normally did each season, she would have waited until the First attacked at the very last stage of this plan, then foiled it...and meanwhile the other place is completely ignored. Luckily, she *didn't* do this. And the only reason she noticed the *other* plan, the FBYID (From Beneath You It Devours) plan, was due to that magic Slayer box that showed her all the Ubervamps. That didn't have anything to do with the First Evil. Sure, you can argue that if she wasn't fighting the First she wouldn't have looked in the box, but she could have anyway, or just been informed in some other mythological way, like a Slayer Dream(TM). She really just looked in the box because she *got* the box. Now, ironically, the defense against DtSL (collect the SITS in one place) manage to be the offense against FBYID. But that wasn't really something the First could foresee. -- Strip off the 'tg' or your email will be discarded.