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2003-05-15 14:41:59+02:00 - On Spike and love - (Intybus <Intybus@ifrance.com>)


Spoilers for End of days and for the finale In End of days Spike never said he hasn't loved anyone before, he said he's never been close to anyone before. There's a huge difference between Love , Closeness or Intimacy. William loved Cecily in a romantic young non-knowing her at all way. Soulless Spike loved Dru but her insanity prevented closeness because it's very difficult to feel close to someone who is crazy unless you have the same disease yourself. Spike loves Buffy, with or without his soul. He couldn't be close to her last year emotionnally because she kept rejecting him. Now she's shown him trust by deactivating his chip and being on his side against Giles and Principal Wood. She's asked him to hold her and keep her safe when her friends had rejected her and lust wasn't part of the equation so in that regard Spike can feel close to her. Moreover he's the only one who is standing by her side at this point. In End of days Buffy's conversation with Faith shows the loneliness of the slayer. Sometimes, realizing and expressing something to someone else is a start in trying to change things. Buffy tried to make Spike go with her to the Guardian but she's really not gifted at asking for closeness or help because it's all very new to her. She looks disappointed when Spike ends the consversation because he's trying to protect himself. She was there with him during their chaste night and felt closeness too. At the end of the episode when she kisses Angel, she does not do it to hurt Spike because he's not supposed to see this, I think Angel asked for the kiss with his words to her, Angel has always been very able to ask for what he wants despite his broody ways. He 's a pusher, lacking sensitivity and a selfish vampire.Liam was a selfish man too. His desires always come first. As Buffy is facing difficult apocalyptic times and changing emotionally, it's not really surprising to see her "obeying" him with a big smile. It doesn't mean she loves him or not, it's just a spontaneus thing maybe meaning she's getting more in touch with her heart and slowly letting down her guard. What she's shared with Spike these past four years is more real and deeper than what she shared with Angel. Buffy and Angel don't know each other. She knows Spike and he knows her. Hence the closeness he can feel now. Of course she has betrayed this by kissing Angel and Spike so doesn't need to be hurt again. I think 45 minutes left is not enough to make amends for this but I hope Spike gets some apologies from Buffy, probably non verbal ones. She knows he's a good soul and she should show him she approves him.

2003-05-15 14:41:59+02:00 - On Spike and love - (Intybus <Intybus@ifrance.com>)


Spoilers for End of days and for the finale In End of days Spike never said he hasn't loved anyone before, he said he's never been close to anyone before. There's a huge difference between Love , Closeness or Intimacy. William loved Cecily in a romantic young non-knowing her at all way. Soulless Spike loved Dru but her insanity prevented closeness because it's very difficult to feel close to someone who is crazy unless you have the same disease yourself. Spike loves Buffy, with or without his soul. He couldn't be close to her last year emotionnally because she kept rejecting him. Now she's shown him trust by deactivating his chip and being on his side against Giles and Principal Wood. She's asked him to hold her and keep her safe when her friends had rejected her and lust wasn't part of the equation so in that regard Spike can feel close to her. Moreover he's the only one who is standing by her side at this point. In End of days Buffy's conversation with Faith shows the loneliness of the slayer. Sometimes, realizing and expressing something to someone else is a start in trying to change things. Buffy tried to make Spike go with her to the Guardian but she's really not gifted at asking for closeness or help because it's all very new to her. She looks disappointed when Spike ends the consversation because he's trying to protect himself. She was there with him during their chaste night and felt closeness too. At the end of the episode when she kisses Angel, she does not do it to hurt Spike because he's not supposed to see this, I think Angel asked for the kiss with his words to her, Angel has always been very able to ask for what he wants despite his broody ways. He 's a pusher, lacking sensitivity and a selfish vampire.Liam was a selfish man too. His desires always come first. As Buffy is facing difficult apocalyptic times and changing emotionally, it's not really surprising to see her "obeying" him with a big smile. It doesn't mean she loves him or not, it's just a spontaneus thing maybe meaning she's getting more in touch with her heart and slowly letting down her guard. What she's shared with Spike these past four years is more real and deeper than what she shared with Angel. Buffy and Angel don't know each other. She knows Spike and he knows her. Hence the closeness he can feel now. Of course she has betrayed this by kissing Angel and Spike so doesn't need to be hurt again. I think 45 minutes left is not enough to make amends for this but I hope Spike gets some apologies from Buffy, probably non verbal ones. She knows he's a good soul and she should show him she approves him.

2003-05-15 18:35:37+00:00 - Re: On Spike and love - (HeKS <heks_@hotmail.com>)


"Intybus" <Intybus@ifrance.com> wrote in message news:3ec38b14$0$24916$626a54ce@news.free.fr... > Spoilers for End of days and for the finale > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In End of days Spike never said he hasn't loved anyone before, he said > he's never been close to anyone before. > > There's a huge difference between Love , Closeness or Intimacy. William > loved Cecily in a romantic young non-knowing her at all way. Soulless Spike > loved Dru but her insanity prevented closeness because it's very difficult > to feel close to someone who is crazy unless you have the same disease > yourself. > > Spike loves Buffy, with or without his soul. He couldn't be close to her > last year emotionnally because she kept rejecting him. > Now she's shown him trust by deactivating his chip and being on his side > against Giles and Principal Wood. She's asked him to hold her and keep her > safe when her friends had rejected her and lust wasn't part of the equation > so in that regard Spike can feel close to her. Moreover he's the only one > who is standing by her side at this point. > > In End of days Buffy's conversation with Faith shows the loneliness of the > slayer. Sometimes, realizing and expressing something to someone else is a > start in trying to change things. Buffy tried to make Spike go with her to > the Guardian but she's really not gifted at asking for closeness or help > because it's all very new to her. She looks disappointed when Spike ends the > consversation because he's trying to protect himself. She was there with him > during their chaste night and felt closeness too. > > At the end of the episode when she kisses Angel, she does not do it to > hurt Spike because he's not supposed to see this, I think Angel asked for > the kiss with his words to her, Angel has always been very able to ask for > what he wants despite his broody ways. He 's a pusher, lacking sensitivity > and a selfish vampire.Liam was a selfish man too. His desires always come > first. As Buffy is facing difficult apocalyptic times and changing > emotionally, it's not really surprising to see her "obeying" him with a big > smile. It doesn't mean she loves him or not, it's just a spontaneus thing > maybe meaning she's getting more in touch with her heart and slowly letting > down her guard. > > What she's shared with Spike these past four years is more real and > deeper than what she shared with Angel. Buffy and Angel don't know each > other. She knows Spike and he knows her. Hence the closeness he can feel > now. Of course she has betrayed this by kissing Angel and Spike so doesn't > need to be hurt again. I think 45 minutes left is not enough to make amends > for this but I hope Spike gets some apologies from Buffy, probably non > verbal ones. She knows he's a good soul and she should show him she approves > him. > I agree with some of what you said . . . but I don't believe Angel is selfish . . . especially not just because Liam was selfish. As I've said in a previous post, I find Spike with a soul to still be almost a completely different character than when he was William. He may have some left over insecurities but he doesn't have the same personality or purposes. Likewise, I don't find Angel with a soul to be the same as Liam. Both Angel and Spike have had hundreds of years to gain wisdom and experience and they are both very different for it. I also don't think it makes sense to say that Angel doesn't know Buffy and Spike does. I would say Angel knows Buffy at least as well and probably better than Spike. Both Angel and Angelus have shown an aptitude for psychology and seeing into the heart of the matter and understanding what a person is feeling and what drives them. Look how well Angelus played with Buffy. He knew you couldn't kill her by fighting her . . . you needed to kill her by loving her. On the flip side, look how well he was able to help Faith. He could understand what she was going through and pulled her back from the edge . . . would have done it sooner if Wes hadn't interrupted that time. Anyways, I think Angel knows Buffy plenty well, even intimately since they slept together out of love before Angel turned whereas she slept with Spike out of desperation and self-loathing. She may not know Angel as he is now as well as she did when he was in Sunnydale, but she still knows him. I also don't think he was commanding her to kiss him by saying, "At least you could say you're happy to see me." after she told him she didn't need his help in the fight. HeKS

2003-05-15 18:35:37+00:00 - Re: On Spike and love - (HeKS <heks_@hotmail.com>)


"Intybus" <Intybus@ifrance.com> wrote in message news:3ec38b14$0$24916$626a54ce@news.free.fr... > Spoilers for End of days and for the finale > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In End of days Spike never said he hasn't loved anyone before, he said > he's never been close to anyone before. > > There's a huge difference between Love , Closeness or Intimacy. William > loved Cecily in a romantic young non-knowing her at all way. Soulless Spike > loved Dru but her insanity prevented closeness because it's very difficult > to feel close to someone who is crazy unless you have the same disease > yourself. > > Spike loves Buffy, with or without his soul. He couldn't be close to her > last year emotionnally because she kept rejecting him. > Now she's shown him trust by deactivating his chip and being on his side > against Giles and Principal Wood. She's asked him to hold her and keep her > safe when her friends had rejected her and lust wasn't part of the equation > so in that regard Spike can feel close to her. Moreover he's the only one > who is standing by her side at this point. > > In End of days Buffy's conversation with Faith shows the loneliness of the > slayer. Sometimes, realizing and expressing something to someone else is a > start in trying to change things. Buffy tried to make Spike go with her to > the Guardian but she's really not gifted at asking for closeness or help > because it's all very new to her. She looks disappointed when Spike ends the > consversation because he's trying to protect himself. She was there with him > during their chaste night and felt closeness too. > > At the end of the episode when she kisses Angel, she does not do it to > hurt Spike because he's not supposed to see this, I think Angel asked for > the kiss with his words to her, Angel has always been very able to ask for > what he wants despite his broody ways. He 's a pusher, lacking sensitivity > and a selfish vampire.Liam was a selfish man too. His desires always come > first. As Buffy is facing difficult apocalyptic times and changing > emotionally, it's not really surprising to see her "obeying" him with a big > smile. It doesn't mean she loves him or not, it's just a spontaneus thing > maybe meaning she's getting more in touch with her heart and slowly letting > down her guard. > > What she's shared with Spike these past four years is more real and > deeper than what she shared with Angel. Buffy and Angel don't know each > other. She knows Spike and he knows her. Hence the closeness he can feel > now. Of course she has betrayed this by kissing Angel and Spike so doesn't > need to be hurt again. I think 45 minutes left is not enough to make amends > for this but I hope Spike gets some apologies from Buffy, probably non > verbal ones. She knows he's a good soul and she should show him she approves > him. > I agree with some of what you said . . . but I don't believe Angel is selfish . . . especially not just because Liam was selfish. As I've said in a previous post, I find Spike with a soul to still be almost a completely different character than when he was William. He may have some left over insecurities but he doesn't have the same personality or purposes. Likewise, I don't find Angel with a soul to be the same as Liam. Both Angel and Spike have had hundreds of years to gain wisdom and experience and they are both very different for it. I also don't think it makes sense to say that Angel doesn't know Buffy and Spike does. I would say Angel knows Buffy at least as well and probably better than Spike. Both Angel and Angelus have shown an aptitude for psychology and seeing into the heart of the matter and understanding what a person is feeling and what drives them. Look how well Angelus played with Buffy. He knew you couldn't kill her by fighting her . . . you needed to kill her by loving her. On the flip side, look how well he was able to help Faith. He could understand what she was going through and pulled her back from the edge . . . would have done it sooner if Wes hadn't interrupted that time. Anyways, I think Angel knows Buffy plenty well, even intimately since they slept together out of love before Angel turned whereas she slept with Spike out of desperation and self-loathing. She may not know Angel as he is now as well as she did when he was in Sunnydale, but she still knows him. I also don't think he was commanding her to kiss him by saying, "At least you could say you're happy to see me." after she told him she didn't need his help in the fight. HeKS

2003-05-15 22:41:18+02:00 - Re: On Spike and love - (Intybus <Intybus@ifrance.com>)


Spoilers for End of days HeKs said: ""I agree with some of what you said . . . but I don't believe Angel is selfish . . . especially not just because Liam was selfish. As I've said in a previous post, I find Spike with a soul to still be almost a completely different character than when he was William. He may have some left over insecurities but he doesn't have the same personality or purposes. "" I think Angel has a tendency to choose for people what he thinks is best for them. He's even bordering on being obsessed with power when events turn too dramatic,which happens a lot in LA. Maybe he's different from Liam because the soul the Gypsies gave him is not his originel one but I believe some part of Angel tries to control events and people because since his father told him he was a failure he has control insecurities. HeKs said: ""Likewise, I don't find Angel with a soul to be the same as Liam. Both Angel and Spike have had hundreds of years to gain wisdom and experience and they are both very different for it."" Twentieth century Sunnydale is also very different from old Ireland or old England. Vampires are survivors so they have to adapt to modern times, plus it's true that living for so long teaches oneself a lot and changes beings. HeKs said: "" I also don't think it makes sense to say that Angel doesn't know Buffy and Spike does. I would say Angel knows Buffy at least as well and probably better than Spike. Both Angel and Angelus have shown an aptitude for psychology and seeing into the heart of the matter and understanding what a person is feeling and what drives them. Look how well Angelus played with Buffy. He knew you couldn't kill her by fighting her . . . you needed to kill her by loving her."" The Buffy Angel knew is dead and resurrected. She's no longer full of spontaneity. Angel and Angelus had immediate responses when dealing with the old Buffy whereas the new one holds everything inside to the point of self destruction. Spike was here to see her change, Angel wasn't. As for killing her, Spike doesn't want her to die, he wants her to enjoy life, one huge point in his favour! HeKs said: "" On the flip side, look how well he was able to help Faith. He could understand what she was going through and pulled her back from the edge . . . would have done it sooner if Wes hadn't interrupted that time. Anyways, I think Angel knows Buffy plenty well, even intimately since they slept together out of love before Angel turned whereas she slept with Spike out of desperation and self-loathing. She may not know Angel as he is now as well as she did when he was in Sunnydale, but she still knows him."" Faith hadn't spent time in jail yet and hadn't really grown up when Angel dealt with her. Faith is a less complex character than Buffy and Angel saw her more often than Buffy. As for Buffy, her first time put her on her way to womanhood and eventhough I'm sure intimacy and the magic of the first time was there with Angel, what followed kind of broke the spell. Angel may know "Buffy the teenager" but Spike knows "Buffy the woman". HeKs said: ""I also don't think he was commanding her to kiss him by saying, "At least you could say you're happy to see me." after she told him she didn't need his help in the fight."" It looked like "fishing" to me. She was happy to be alive and Angel's presence was unexpected but I don't know what she would have done if Angel Hadn't said anything. Eve

2003-05-15 22:41:18+02:00 - Re: On Spike and love - (Intybus <Intybus@ifrance.com>)


Spoilers for End of days HeKs said: ""I agree with some of what you said . . . but I don't believe Angel is selfish . . . especially not just because Liam was selfish. As I've said in a previous post, I find Spike with a soul to still be almost a completely different character than when he was William. He may have some left over insecurities but he doesn't have the same personality or purposes. "" I think Angel has a tendency to choose for people what he thinks is best for them. He's even bordering on being obsessed with power when events turn too dramatic,which happens a lot in LA. Maybe he's different from Liam because the soul the Gypsies gave him is not his originel one but I believe some part of Angel tries to control events and people because since his father told him he was a failure he has control insecurities. HeKs said: ""Likewise, I don't find Angel with a soul to be the same as Liam. Both Angel and Spike have had hundreds of years to gain wisdom and experience and they are both very different for it."" Twentieth century Sunnydale is also very different from old Ireland or old England. Vampires are survivors so they have to adapt to modern times, plus it's true that living for so long teaches oneself a lot and changes beings. HeKs said: "" I also don't think it makes sense to say that Angel doesn't know Buffy and Spike does. I would say Angel knows Buffy at least as well and probably better than Spike. Both Angel and Angelus have shown an aptitude for psychology and seeing into the heart of the matter and understanding what a person is feeling and what drives them. Look how well Angelus played with Buffy. He knew you couldn't kill her by fighting her . . . you needed to kill her by loving her."" The Buffy Angel knew is dead and resurrected. She's no longer full of spontaneity. Angel and Angelus had immediate responses when dealing with the old Buffy whereas the new one holds everything inside to the point of self destruction. Spike was here to see her change, Angel wasn't. As for killing her, Spike doesn't want her to die, he wants her to enjoy life, one huge point in his favour! HeKs said: "" On the flip side, look how well he was able to help Faith. He could understand what she was going through and pulled her back from the edge . . . would have done it sooner if Wes hadn't interrupted that time. Anyways, I think Angel knows Buffy plenty well, even intimately since they slept together out of love before Angel turned whereas she slept with Spike out of desperation and self-loathing. She may not know Angel as he is now as well as she did when he was in Sunnydale, but she still knows him."" Faith hadn't spent time in jail yet and hadn't really grown up when Angel dealt with her. Faith is a less complex character than Buffy and Angel saw her more often than Buffy. As for Buffy, her first time put her on her way to womanhood and eventhough I'm sure intimacy and the magic of the first time was there with Angel, what followed kind of broke the spell. Angel may know "Buffy the teenager" but Spike knows "Buffy the woman". HeKs said: ""I also don't think he was commanding her to kiss him by saying, "At least you could say you're happy to see me." after she told him she didn't need his help in the fight."" It looked like "fishing" to me. She was happy to be alive and Angel's presence was unexpected but I don't know what she would have done if Angel Hadn't said anything. Eve