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2003-01-26 18:03:57-05:00 - Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL SOMETHING. I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the possessive hold it has on him.

2003-01-26 18:03:57-05:00 - Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL SOMETHING. I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the possessive hold it has on him.

2003-01-26 18:19:25-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com>)


david wrote: > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? 'cause the writers said so > I know they > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > SOMETHING. > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > possessive hold it has on him. Well, Buffy is supposed to be a big "role-reversal" thing. Buffy is the typical hero, Xander the damsel in distress, etc. In typical romances, women frequently fall "in love" with men who treat them like shit - realistic or not, for some reason it's a popular fantasy. Most movies, books, etc. leave the audience wondering "what possible reason would she have for loving him? He was mean to her the whole way through. But, sigh, it's so romantic..." Therefore, Spike fell in love with someone who treated him like shit.

2003-01-26 18:19:25-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com>)


david wrote: > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? 'cause the writers said so > I know they > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > SOMETHING. > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > possessive hold it has on him. Well, Buffy is supposed to be a big "role-reversal" thing. Buffy is the typical hero, Xander the damsel in distress, etc. In typical romances, women frequently fall "in love" with men who treat them like shit - realistic or not, for some reason it's a popular fantasy. Most movies, books, etc. leave the audience wondering "what possible reason would she have for loving him? He was mean to her the whole way through. But, sigh, it's so romantic..." Therefore, Spike fell in love with someone who treated him like shit.

2003-01-26 19:10:13-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:19:25 -0500, Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com> wrote: > > >david wrote: >> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? > >'cause the writers said so > >> I know they >> say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >> strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >> SOMETHING. >> >> I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >> there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >> possessive hold it has on him. > >Well, Buffy is supposed to be a big "role-reversal" thing. Buffy is the >typical hero, Xander the damsel in distress, etc. In typical romances, >women frequently fall "in love" with men who treat them like shit - >realistic or not, for some reason it's a popular fantasy. Most movies, >books, etc. leave the audience wondering "what possible reason would she >have for loving him? He was mean to her the whole way through. But, >sigh, it's so romantic..." > >Therefore, Spike fell in love with someone who treated him like shit. I don't know. He was treated badly because he is a bad guy. Spike fell in love for other reasons I think.

2003-01-26 19:10:13-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:19:25 -0500, Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com> wrote: > > >david wrote: >> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? > >'cause the writers said so > >> I know they >> say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >> strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >> SOMETHING. >> >> I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >> there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >> possessive hold it has on him. > >Well, Buffy is supposed to be a big "role-reversal" thing. Buffy is the >typical hero, Xander the damsel in distress, etc. In typical romances, >women frequently fall "in love" with men who treat them like shit - >realistic or not, for some reason it's a popular fantasy. Most movies, >books, etc. leave the audience wondering "what possible reason would she >have for loving him? He was mean to her the whole way through. But, >sigh, it's so romantic..." > >Therefore, Spike fell in love with someone who treated him like shit. I don't know. He was treated badly because he is a bad guy. Spike fell in love for other reasons I think.

2003-01-26 19:18:11-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com>)


david wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:19:25 -0500, Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com> > wrote: > > >> >>david wrote: >> >>>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? >> >>'cause the writers said so >> >> >>>I know they >>>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >>>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >>>SOMETHING. >>> >>>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >>>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >>>possessive hold it has on him. >> >>Well, Buffy is supposed to be a big "role-reversal" thing. Buffy is the >>typical hero, Xander the damsel in distress, etc. In typical romances, >>women frequently fall "in love" with men who treat them like shit - >>realistic or not, for some reason it's a popular fantasy. Most movies, >>books, etc. leave the audience wondering "what possible reason would she >>have for loving him? He was mean to her the whole way through. But, >>sigh, it's so romantic..." >> >>Therefore, Spike fell in love with someone who treated him like shit. > > > I don't know. He was treated badly because he is a bad guy. Spike > fell in love for other reasons I think. What reasons? He was treated bad because he was a bad guy. He "fell in love" because it was convenient (from a point of view outside of the show), and because he was treated bad (from a point of view inside the show). He and Buffy had no positive interaction before he had a sex dream about her and thus decided he was in love with her. There was no real reason for him to "love" her. After he "fell in love" with her and they started having some decent interaction, the relationship didn't seem so ridiculous, but there was no reason for him to love her before he "fell in love" with her.

2003-01-26 19:18:11-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com>)


david wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:19:25 -0500, Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com> > wrote: > > >> >>david wrote: >> >>>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? >> >>'cause the writers said so >> >> >>>I know they >>>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >>>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >>>SOMETHING. >>> >>>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >>>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >>>possessive hold it has on him. >> >>Well, Buffy is supposed to be a big "role-reversal" thing. Buffy is the >>typical hero, Xander the damsel in distress, etc. In typical romances, >>women frequently fall "in love" with men who treat them like shit - >>realistic or not, for some reason it's a popular fantasy. Most movies, >>books, etc. leave the audience wondering "what possible reason would she >>have for loving him? He was mean to her the whole way through. But, >>sigh, it's so romantic..." >> >>Therefore, Spike fell in love with someone who treated him like shit. > > > I don't know. He was treated badly because he is a bad guy. Spike > fell in love for other reasons I think. What reasons? He was treated bad because he was a bad guy. He "fell in love" because it was convenient (from a point of view outside of the show), and because he was treated bad (from a point of view inside the show). He and Buffy had no positive interaction before he had a sex dream about her and thus decided he was in love with her. There was no real reason for him to "love" her. After he "fell in love" with her and they started having some decent interaction, the relationship didn't seem so ridiculous, but there was no reason for him to love her before he "fell in love" with her.

2003-01-26 19:26:12-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com>)


Ken Arromdee wrote: > In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >>SOMETHING. >> >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >>possessive hold it has on him. > > > No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a turn on, > and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate turn-on for > vampires. Yeah, but being turned on by someone isn't the same as LOVING them.

2003-01-26 19:26:12-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com>)


Ken Arromdee wrote: > In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >>SOMETHING. >> >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >>possessive hold it has on him. > > > No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a turn on, > and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate turn-on for > vampires. Yeah, but being turned on by someone isn't the same as LOVING them.

2003-01-26 19:52:31-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <260120032025521874%robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net>, Rob Myers <robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net> wrote: > In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, david > <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > SOMETHING. > > > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > possessive hold it has on him. > > I think it was because he thought he'd met an exciting and dangerous > side of Buffy when he encountered Fuffy. I wonder if Faith will bring the subject up when she arrives? That would be a hoot! NeoSpike finds out that Buffy was never really into Spike and Buffy discovers that it was Faith that first got Spike's motor running. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-01-26 19:52:31-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <260120032025521874%robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net>, Rob Myers <robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net> wrote: > In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, david > <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > SOMETHING. > > > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > possessive hold it has on him. > > I think it was because he thought he'd met an exciting and dangerous > side of Buffy when he encountered Fuffy. I wonder if Faith will bring the subject up when she arrives? That would be a hoot! NeoSpike finds out that Buffy was never really into Spike and Buffy discovers that it was Faith that first got Spike's motor running. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-01-26 20:21:27-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > SOMETHING. Why Do Fools Fall In Love (F. Lymon/G. Goldner) Ooh wah, ooh wah Ooh wah, ooh wah Ooh wah, ooh wah Why do fools fall in love? Why do birds sing so gay And lovers await the break of the day Why do they fall in love? Why does the rain fall from up above? Why do fools fall in love? Why do they fall in love? Love is a losing game Love can be a shame I know, I'm a fool you see For that fool is me Tell me why Tell me why Why do birds sing so gay And lovers await the break of the day Why do they fall in love? Why does the rain fall from up above? Why do fools fall in love? Why do they fall in love? Why does my heart Skip a crazy beat? For I know It will reach defeat Tell me why Tell me why Why do fools fall in love? Tell me why Tell me why -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-01-26 20:21:27-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > SOMETHING. Why Do Fools Fall In Love (F. Lymon/G. Goldner) Ooh wah, ooh wah Ooh wah, ooh wah Ooh wah, ooh wah Why do fools fall in love? Why do birds sing so gay And lovers await the break of the day Why do they fall in love? Why does the rain fall from up above? Why do fools fall in love? Why do they fall in love? Love is a losing game Love can be a shame I know, I'm a fool you see For that fool is me Tell me why Tell me why Why do birds sing so gay And lovers await the break of the day Why do they fall in love? Why does the rain fall from up above? Why do fools fall in love? Why do they fall in love? Why does my heart Skip a crazy beat? For I know It will reach defeat Tell me why Tell me why Why do fools fall in love? Tell me why Tell me why -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-01-26 21:41:24-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote: >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >>SOMETHING. >> >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >>possessive hold it has on him. > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a turn on, >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate turn-on for >vampires. Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. I guess the start of him having a soul.

2003-01-26 21:41:24-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote: >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >>SOMETHING. >> >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >>possessive hold it has on him. > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a turn on, >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate turn-on for >vampires. Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. I guess the start of him having a soul.

2003-01-27 01:21:48+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Rob Myers <robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net>)


In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > SOMETHING. > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > possessive hold it has on him. I think it was because he thought he'd met an exciting and dangerous side of Buffy when he encountered Fuffy. -- rob m at rob myers dot net

2003-01-27 01:21:48+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Rob Myers <robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net>)


In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > SOMETHING. > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > possessive hold it has on him. I think it was because he thought he'd met an exciting and dangerous side of Buffy when he encountered Fuffy. -- rob m at rob myers dot net

2003-01-27 02:06:50+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net>)


Rob Myers wrote: >david wrote: > >> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know >> they say that there is no difference between love and hate - they >> are both strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you >> FEEL SOMETHING. >> >> I think it was because he realised after living among the living, >> that there are good people in the world. The demon has started to >> lose the possessive hold it has on him. > > I think it was because he thought he'd met an exciting and dangerous > side of Buffy when he encountered Fuffy. Doubt it. In "Crush" we saw Dru saying that she had felt it as far back as the events immediately prior to "Lovers Walk"; long before he ever met Fuffy. I saw hints of it when I first saw "Lovers Walk" itself; but at the time I thought it was just my imagination. At most, Fuffy began the process of Spike's conscious realisation of the feelings which were already growing subconsciously. He admires and respects her, and has done even in Season 2. He enjoyed fighting alongside her in "Lovers Walk", long before the chip forced him to fight alongside her or not fight at all. However, I think that the real trigger was "Something Blue". They were just so right together; all us B/S shippers saw it, and I think something inside Spike saw it too. It's not so unusual. Two people ... in the workplace ... feelings develop. Paul Speaker-to-Customers

2003-01-27 02:06:50+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net>)


Rob Myers wrote: >david wrote: > >> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know >> they say that there is no difference between love and hate - they >> are both strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you >> FEEL SOMETHING. >> >> I think it was because he realised after living among the living, >> that there are good people in the world. The demon has started to >> lose the possessive hold it has on him. > > I think it was because he thought he'd met an exciting and dangerous > side of Buffy when he encountered Fuffy. Doubt it. In "Crush" we saw Dru saying that she had felt it as far back as the events immediately prior to "Lovers Walk"; long before he ever met Fuffy. I saw hints of it when I first saw "Lovers Walk" itself; but at the time I thought it was just my imagination. At most, Fuffy began the process of Spike's conscious realisation of the feelings which were already growing subconsciously. He admires and respects her, and has done even in Season 2. He enjoyed fighting alongside her in "Lovers Walk", long before the chip forced him to fight alongside her or not fight at all. However, I think that the real trigger was "Something Blue". They were just so right together; all us B/S shippers saw it, and I think something inside Spike saw it too. It's not so unusual. Two people ... in the workplace ... feelings develop. Paul Speaker-to-Customers

2003-01-27 02:47:09+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com>)


david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in news:r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com: > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? Well, he was around this super-powerful girl who was no longer quite his enemy (or, at least, she wasn't trying to kill him anymore). She's beautiful and loves to fight. With Dru out of the picture, she seems exactly what he would want. As I understand it, Spike loved Dru so there's no reason to think he couldn't love a non-vamp. -- Dan a.a. #1617

2003-01-27 02:47:09+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com>)


david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in news:r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com: > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? Well, he was around this super-powerful girl who was no longer quite his enemy (or, at least, she wasn't trying to kill him anymore). She's beautiful and loves to fight. With Dru out of the picture, she seems exactly what he would want. As I understand it, Spike loved Dru so there's no reason to think he couldn't love a non-vamp. -- Dan a.a. #1617

2003-01-27 07:34:58-08:00 - Re: Why did Angel fall in love? - (jillun@hotmail.com)


"Prodigy" <ProdigyUK1@aol.com> wrote in message news:<3e34d2fb@nexus.comcen.com.au>... > > > > I'd like to ask the same question re Angel. Why did he fall in love with > > Buffy? > > Because Buffy was a 'good version' of Darla, and Angel has had some sort of > thing with Darla. Both were about the same height, both were strong > fighters that could speak for themselves. Except Buffy never stole babies > in China to snack on. See, I was thinking a more general why. And we know he didn't get deeply into Cordelia until she cut her hair short and dyed it blonde.

2003-01-27 07:34:58-08:00 - Re: Why did Angel fall in love? - (jillun@hotmail.com)


"Prodigy" <ProdigyUK1@aol.com> wrote in message news:<3e34d2fb@nexus.comcen.com.au>... > > > > I'd like to ask the same question re Angel. Why did he fall in love with > > Buffy? > > Because Buffy was a 'good version' of Darla, and Angel has had some sort of > thing with Darla. Both were about the same height, both were strong > fighters that could speak for themselves. Except Buffy never stole babies > in China to snack on. See, I was thinking a more general why. And we know he didn't get deeply into Cordelia until she cut her hair short and dyed it blonde.

2003-01-27 08:10:55+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net>)


If you go back and watch Angel season one, you'll find an interesting comment in the episode "the Prodigal". Darla tells Angel: "What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts - even if they no longer beat. Simple death won't change that." I don't think that William was ever a bad guy. Not really. And little by little that has slipped out and shows in Spike. Liam, on the other hand, was always a angry guy that felt the sting of his father's hatred for him. To Liam, nothing was good enough for his father. Liam could never win against his father. That anger made Angelus a nasty guy. Nastier than he might have been if he'd started off as an overly romantic writer of bad poems.

2003-01-27 08:10:55+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net>)


If you go back and watch Angel season one, you'll find an interesting comment in the episode "the Prodigal". Darla tells Angel: "What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts - even if they no longer beat. Simple death won't change that." I don't think that William was ever a bad guy. Not really. And little by little that has slipped out and shows in Spike. Liam, on the other hand, was always a angry guy that felt the sting of his father's hatred for him. To Liam, nothing was good enough for his father. Liam could never win against his father. That anger made Angelus a nasty guy. Nastier than he might have been if he'd started off as an overly romantic writer of bad poems.

2003-01-27 08:40:26-06:00 - Re: Why did Angel fall in love? - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <3e34d2fb@nexus.comcen.com.au>, "Prodigy" <ProdigyUK1@aol.com> wrote: > > > > I'd like to ask the same question re Angel. Why did he fall in love with > > Buffy? > > Because Buffy was a 'good version' of Darla, and Angel has had some sort of > thing with Darla. Both were about the same height, both were strong > fighters that could speak for themselves. Except Buffy never stole babies > in China to snack on. You're right.... she send Giles to China to do that for her. Nothing like a little Chinese take-out... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-01-27 08:40:26-06:00 - Re: Why did Angel fall in love? - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <3e34d2fb@nexus.comcen.com.au>, "Prodigy" <ProdigyUK1@aol.com> wrote: > > > > I'd like to ask the same question re Angel. Why did he fall in love with > > Buffy? > > Because Buffy was a 'good version' of Darla, and Angel has had some sort of > thing with Darla. Both were about the same height, both were strong > fighters that could speak for themselves. Except Buffy never stole babies > in China to snack on. You're right.... she send Giles to China to do that for her. Nothing like a little Chinese take-out... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-01-27 10:44:58-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message news:c7902983.0301262109.8cb7f75@posting.google.com... > Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com> wrote in message news:<3E346CFD.3000801@baerana.com>... > > david wrote: > > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? > > > > Well, Buffy is supposed to be a big "role-reversal" thing. Buffy is the > > typical hero, Xander the damsel in distress, etc. In typical romances, > > women frequently fall "in love" with men who treat them like shit - > > realistic or not, for some reason it's a popular fantasy. Most movies, > > books, etc. leave the audience wondering "what possible reason would she > > have for loving him? He was mean to her the whole way through. But, > > sigh, it's so romantic..." > > > > Therefore, Spike fell in love with someone who treated him like shit. > > LOL. I think you're absolutely right. Buffy admitted this early on > in Crush when she told Joyce that she had offered him some > encouragement: "I do beat him up a lot. For Spike, that's like, third > base." Spike has been portrayed from the very beginning as being an individual that equates love and devotion with pain. His relationship with Dru has S&M written all over it. And in Potential, she admitted again that she knows damn well > she's being unnecessarily mean to Spike...in her ramble to Amanda. I don't recall her admitting she was mean to Spike. In fact, all she pretty much said was bad, bad, bad. Which, it was. The whole fiasco from beginning to end was nothing but bad. I always maintained that it was wrong for Buffy to use Spike for sex and that she went way overboard in "Dead Things." Other than that, I think she gave as good as she got. Spike wasn't exactly Prince Charming. > > Spike, of course, was always on the masochistic side. I mean, over a > century with Dru? But I think that may be changing. Spike's soul may > be the beginning of a feminist consciousness raising. Right now he's > so hangdog about other stuff (like his impressive body count), that he > hasn't done much about it, but he told her pretty bluntly in Sleeper > that he hadn't understood before how badly she was treating him or had > the sense/awareness to realize it demeaned both of them, but he got it > now. Of course, his focus was still on his own self-hatred for > letting her do that to him His self-hatred was about "Oh yes, I am a murderous, blood-sucking monster, so good of my soul to remind me." My take on that conversation, different from yours (and who's shocked about that?), was that Spike now understood that Buffy didn't love him. Before his soul he equated ill treatment and pain with love. The crueler she was to him the more convinced he was that she cared. Now he gets it. It was never about her feelings for him, it was about her feelings towards herself. but when he gets his rocks back (and I'm > sure he will), they're going to have to have this out. > I have a feeling we've seen the last of that discussion. Like so many other issues that have been simply glossed over this season I think that was ME's last word on "the why is Buffy so mean to Spike?" thing. > Interestingly, Buffy's reaction to their relationship is exactly the > same as Spike's: "I let him do things to me..." And like Spike, she > does have cause; Spike didn't treat her all that well either. This, I > think is where it gets away from the strict gender reversal and more > into what Amanda was describing: being mean to each other because you > like each other. > That's twisted, even in childhood, maybe even especially in childhood. Abuse, any kind of abuse, does not correlate with affection. Buffy and Spike were brutally abusive to one another, physically, emotionally, and sexually. Being mean is about power. Having power, wanting power, over another being. I think Buffy makes that clear to Amanda in "Potential". Bad, Bad, Bad. > That can, actually, result in a decent relationship if they can change > from "mean" to simply "challenging and irreverend." And they should > probably stop hitting each other except, perhaps, in sexual play. > Ewwwww. Decent relationships are founded on trust, respect, caring and kindness, period. No relationship is perfect, obviously, but any relationship between Buffy and Spike is always going to be fatally flawed. -- Shannon If loving Buffy is wrong, I don't want to be right.

2003-01-27 10:44:58-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"himiko" <himiko@animail.net> wrote in message news:c7902983.0301262109.8cb7f75@posting.google.com... > Eeyore48 <eeyore48@baerana.com> wrote in message news:<3E346CFD.3000801@baerana.com>... > > david wrote: > > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? > > > > Well, Buffy is supposed to be a big "role-reversal" thing. Buffy is the > > typical hero, Xander the damsel in distress, etc. In typical romances, > > women frequently fall "in love" with men who treat them like shit - > > realistic or not, for some reason it's a popular fantasy. Most movies, > > books, etc. leave the audience wondering "what possible reason would she > > have for loving him? He was mean to her the whole way through. But, > > sigh, it's so romantic..." > > > > Therefore, Spike fell in love with someone who treated him like shit. > > LOL. I think you're absolutely right. Buffy admitted this early on > in Crush when she told Joyce that she had offered him some > encouragement: "I do beat him up a lot. For Spike, that's like, third > base." Spike has been portrayed from the very beginning as being an individual that equates love and devotion with pain. His relationship with Dru has S&M written all over it. And in Potential, she admitted again that she knows damn well > she's being unnecessarily mean to Spike...in her ramble to Amanda. I don't recall her admitting she was mean to Spike. In fact, all she pretty much said was bad, bad, bad. Which, it was. The whole fiasco from beginning to end was nothing but bad. I always maintained that it was wrong for Buffy to use Spike for sex and that she went way overboard in "Dead Things." Other than that, I think she gave as good as she got. Spike wasn't exactly Prince Charming. > > Spike, of course, was always on the masochistic side. I mean, over a > century with Dru? But I think that may be changing. Spike's soul may > be the beginning of a feminist consciousness raising. Right now he's > so hangdog about other stuff (like his impressive body count), that he > hasn't done much about it, but he told her pretty bluntly in Sleeper > that he hadn't understood before how badly she was treating him or had > the sense/awareness to realize it demeaned both of them, but he got it > now. Of course, his focus was still on his own self-hatred for > letting her do that to him His self-hatred was about "Oh yes, I am a murderous, blood-sucking monster, so good of my soul to remind me." My take on that conversation, different from yours (and who's shocked about that?), was that Spike now understood that Buffy didn't love him. Before his soul he equated ill treatment and pain with love. The crueler she was to him the more convinced he was that she cared. Now he gets it. It was never about her feelings for him, it was about her feelings towards herself. but when he gets his rocks back (and I'm > sure he will), they're going to have to have this out. > I have a feeling we've seen the last of that discussion. Like so many other issues that have been simply glossed over this season I think that was ME's last word on "the why is Buffy so mean to Spike?" thing. > Interestingly, Buffy's reaction to their relationship is exactly the > same as Spike's: "I let him do things to me..." And like Spike, she > does have cause; Spike didn't treat her all that well either. This, I > think is where it gets away from the strict gender reversal and more > into what Amanda was describing: being mean to each other because you > like each other. > That's twisted, even in childhood, maybe even especially in childhood. Abuse, any kind of abuse, does not correlate with affection. Buffy and Spike were brutally abusive to one another, physically, emotionally, and sexually. Being mean is about power. Having power, wanting power, over another being. I think Buffy makes that clear to Amanda in "Potential". Bad, Bad, Bad. > That can, actually, result in a decent relationship if they can change > from "mean" to simply "challenging and irreverend." And they should > probably stop hitting each other except, perhaps, in sexual play. > Ewwwww. Decent relationships are founded on trust, respect, caring and kindness, period. No relationship is perfect, obviously, but any relationship between Buffy and Spike is always going to be fatally flawed. -- Shannon If loving Buffy is wrong, I don't want to be right.

2003-01-27 10:48:02-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Don Sample" <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:260120032021276089%dsample@synapse.net... > In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, david > <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > SOMETHING. > > Why Do Fools Fall In Love > (F. Lymon/G. Goldner) > > Ooh wah, ooh wah > Ooh wah, ooh wah > Ooh wah, ooh wah > Why do fools fall in love? > > Why do birds sing so gay > And lovers await the break of the day > Why do they fall in love? > Why does the rain fall from up above? > Why do fools fall in love? > Why do they fall in love? > > Love is a losing game > Love can be a shame > I know, I'm a fool you see > For that fool is me > Tell me why > Tell me why > > Why do birds sing so gay > And lovers await the break of the day > Why do they fall in love? > Why does the rain fall from up above? > Why do fools fall in love? > Why do they fall in love? > > Why does my heart > Skip a crazy beat? > For I know > It will reach defeat > Tell me why > Tell me why > > Why do fools fall in love? > Tell me why > Tell me why I was thinking Love Stinks! Yeah! Yeah! Love Stinks! Yeah! Yeah! or You gotta be cruel to be kind in the right measure cruel to be kind it's a very good sign > -- Shannon If loving Buffy is wrong, I don't want to be right.

2003-01-27 10:48:02-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Don Sample" <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:260120032021276089%dsample@synapse.net... > In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, david > <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > SOMETHING. > > Why Do Fools Fall In Love > (F. Lymon/G. Goldner) > > Ooh wah, ooh wah > Ooh wah, ooh wah > Ooh wah, ooh wah > Why do fools fall in love? > > Why do birds sing so gay > And lovers await the break of the day > Why do they fall in love? > Why does the rain fall from up above? > Why do fools fall in love? > Why do they fall in love? > > Love is a losing game > Love can be a shame > I know, I'm a fool you see > For that fool is me > Tell me why > Tell me why > > Why do birds sing so gay > And lovers await the break of the day > Why do they fall in love? > Why does the rain fall from up above? > Why do fools fall in love? > Why do they fall in love? > > Why does my heart > Skip a crazy beat? > For I know > It will reach defeat > Tell me why > Tell me why > > Why do fools fall in love? > Tell me why > Tell me why I was thinking Love Stinks! Yeah! Yeah! Love Stinks! Yeah! Yeah! or You gotta be cruel to be kind in the right measure cruel to be kind it's a very good sign > -- Shannon If loving Buffy is wrong, I don't want to be right.

2003-01-27 10:49:33-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Rob Myers" <robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net> wrote in message news:260120032025521874%robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net... > In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, david > <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > SOMETHING. > > > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > possessive hold it has on him. > > I think it was because he thought he'd met an exciting and dangerous > side of Buffy when he encountered Fuffy. Definitely. Spikes encounter with Fuffy was the Buffy-love kick-off. It was what made him think that she actually was attracted to him and that some type of relationship, however bizarre and twisted, was possible between them. > -- Shannon If loving Buffy is wrong, I don't want to be right.

2003-01-27 10:49:33-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"Rob Myers" <robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net> wrote in message news:260120032025521874%robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net... > In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, david > <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > SOMETHING. > > > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > possessive hold it has on him. > > I think it was because he thought he'd met an exciting and dangerous > side of Buffy when he encountered Fuffy. Definitely. Spikes encounter with Fuffy was the Buffy-love kick-off. It was what made him think that she actually was attracted to him and that some type of relationship, however bizarre and twisted, was possible between them. > -- Shannon If loving Buffy is wrong, I don't want to be right.

2003-01-27 11:51:37-08:00 - Re: Why did Angel fall in love? - (bergeg@parl.gc.ca)


"Prodigy" <ProdigyUK1@aol.com> wrote in message news:<3e34d2fb@nexus.comcen.com.au>... > > > > I'd like to ask the same question re Angel. Why did he fall in love with > > Buffy? Angel fell in love with Buffy because she was his salvation. When Angel got a soul and started his 100-year guilt trip, he lost whatever good he had in his life and dwelled in his misery. He had no desires, no urge, no driving force. He was a shell. When Whistler met up with him and showed him Buffy, he gave Angel something that he could use. Angel never believed that as a vampire he could make a difference, never thought that he could get past his past misdeeds, yet he got that chance through Buffy. And the fact that she saw past it as well, and actually cared about him finally gave him a reason to live. In Buffy was his newfound life, she represented everything that was good about him. Every good deed he did he lay at her feet. In the end, Buffy was his everything. Until he found that they could never be together again, and (with her help) was able to see that he could do good by himself.

2003-01-27 11:51:37-08:00 - Re: Why did Angel fall in love? - (bergeg@parl.gc.ca)


"Prodigy" <ProdigyUK1@aol.com> wrote in message news:<3e34d2fb@nexus.comcen.com.au>... > > > > I'd like to ask the same question re Angel. Why did he fall in love with > > Buffy? Angel fell in love with Buffy because she was his salvation. When Angel got a soul and started his 100-year guilt trip, he lost whatever good he had in his life and dwelled in his misery. He had no desires, no urge, no driving force. He was a shell. When Whistler met up with him and showed him Buffy, he gave Angel something that he could use. Angel never believed that as a vampire he could make a difference, never thought that he could get past his past misdeeds, yet he got that chance through Buffy. And the fact that she saw past it as well, and actually cared about him finally gave him a reason to live. In Buffy was his newfound life, she represented everything that was good about him. Every good deed he did he lay at her feet. In the end, Buffy was his everything. Until he found that they could never be together again, and (with her help) was able to see that he could do good by himself.

2003-01-27 12:23:56-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (lynxa101@aol.com)


PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<antarian-6E7127.00113027012003@newssvr16-ext.news.prodigy.com>... > I don't think that William was ever a bad guy. Not really. And little by > little that has slipped out and shows in Spike. > I think it must have been there all along. Spike's disinclination towards torture, while Darla, Angelus and Drusilla loved it. (Spike at times would even grimace when Angelus or Drusilla rhapsodied on about it.) In Spike's very first appearence even, it was there, when Joyce slammed him over the head and told him to get away from her daughter he jumped back in shock and ran away, then later was freaking out about a Slayer having a family and friends that cared about her. Spike had seen the Slayer as much as monster, a threat to his family and friends as the Slayer did him. All his interactions with Buffy following that were colored by that realization. Showing first in the way he acted toward Joyce, in Becomming he's more respectful towards Joyce than Buffy is! And in Lover's Walk he's practically acting she's his mother as he pours out his tale of woe about how Drusilla dumped him. Drusilla dumped him because he was already falling in love with Buffy.

2003-01-27 12:23:56-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (lynxa101@aol.com)


PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<antarian-6E7127.00113027012003@newssvr16-ext.news.prodigy.com>... > I don't think that William was ever a bad guy. Not really. And little by > little that has slipped out and shows in Spike. > I think it must have been there all along. Spike's disinclination towards torture, while Darla, Angelus and Drusilla loved it. (Spike at times would even grimace when Angelus or Drusilla rhapsodied on about it.) In Spike's very first appearence even, it was there, when Joyce slammed him over the head and told him to get away from her daughter he jumped back in shock and ran away, then later was freaking out about a Slayer having a family and friends that cared about her. Spike had seen the Slayer as much as monster, a threat to his family and friends as the Slayer did him. All his interactions with Buffy following that were colored by that realization. Showing first in the way he acted toward Joyce, in Becomming he's more respectful towards Joyce than Buffy is! And in Lover's Walk he's practically acting she's his mother as he pours out his tale of woe about how Drusilla dumped him. Drusilla dumped him because he was already falling in love with Buffy.

2003-01-27 13:22:30-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>... > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > SOMETHING. > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > possessive hold it has on him. I'm afraid I just don't see it. Spike's initial feelings for Buffy may have been honest and true, but he never showed even a moment's desire to repent his evil, or to even really change his ways. I think the more basic reason is a little more obvious: Spike loved Buffy because he saw something in her personality that he found compelling, and something that was more basic than "good" or "evil." Buffy, in many respects like Drusilla, was possessed of an occassionally fiery personality. She was never intimidated by Spike, and remained an almost consistently even match for him, personality-wise. Mix in perhaps a small amount of Stockholm Syndrome (Spike was basically a "hostage" to the Scoobies while his chip was still operating, to some degree relying on them both as his primary social group and for protection), and I think Spike's behavior and reactions begin to make sense.

2003-01-27 13:22:30-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>... > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > SOMETHING. > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > possessive hold it has on him. I'm afraid I just don't see it. Spike's initial feelings for Buffy may have been honest and true, but he never showed even a moment's desire to repent his evil, or to even really change his ways. I think the more basic reason is a little more obvious: Spike loved Buffy because he saw something in her personality that he found compelling, and something that was more basic than "good" or "evil." Buffy, in many respects like Drusilla, was possessed of an occassionally fiery personality. She was never intimidated by Spike, and remained an almost consistently even match for him, personality-wise. Mix in perhaps a small amount of Stockholm Syndrome (Spike was basically a "hostage" to the Scoobies while his chip was still operating, to some degree relying on them both as his primary social group and for protection), and I think Spike's behavior and reactions begin to make sense.

2003-01-27 13:45:42-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (reldevik@usa.net)


Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:<postmaster-2C0E30.21015026012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > In article <01793v05e4larja2stu64n1l9c2utgrm2u@4ax.com>, > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net > > (Ken Arromdee) wrote: > > > > >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, > > >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > >>SOMETHING. > > >> > > >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > >>possessive hold it has on him. > > > > > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a turn on, > > >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate turn-on for > > >vampires. > > > > Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way > > to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he > > has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. > > I guess the start of him having a soul. > > > > Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it worked, > he got some. --Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the "getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. Oddly enough, people who actually love and care about other people sometimes are nice and kind just for the beloved's benefit, not in order to "get some." Maybe not in your life -- but in the world at large it's a fairly well known phenomenon. Clairel

2003-01-27 13:45:42-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (reldevik@usa.net)


Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:<postmaster-2C0E30.21015026012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > In article <01793v05e4larja2stu64n1l9c2utgrm2u@4ax.com>, > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net > > (Ken Arromdee) wrote: > > > > >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, > > >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > >>SOMETHING. > > >> > > >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > >>possessive hold it has on him. > > > > > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a turn on, > > >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate turn-on for > > >vampires. > > > > Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way > > to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he > > has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. > > I guess the start of him having a soul. > > > > Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it worked, > he got some. --Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the "getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. Oddly enough, people who actually love and care about other people sometimes are nice and kind just for the beloved's benefit, not in order to "get some." Maybe not in your life -- but in the world at large it's a fairly well known phenomenon. Clairel

2003-01-27 13:56:54-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


"napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote in message news:<zj1Z9.5362$d66.487931@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > SOMETHING. > > > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > possessive hold it has on him. > > > > First of all, I don't think Spike was totally evil the way Angelus was. I think it kind of ran in his "family," actually. He, Darla, and Angelus (well, the original Angelus before his restoration in S2), practically reeked of humanity. Even the Master (his great-grandsire) essentially modelled his practices on a sort of perverted human familial hierarchy. I'm just not sure this made them notably less evil, particularly in the worldview of the Buffyverse. Humanity, of course, can be perfectly evil, even within accepted social norms: look at Mayor Wilkins, who represented society itself, and routinely described himself as a "family man," and who, just coincidentally, wanted to become a hideous snake demon and destroy the city. > teamed up with Buffy in "Becoming" because he didn't want the world to be > sucked into hell and he liked "Manchester bloody United' and all those > "happy meals on legs". Two things to consider here: is wanting to keep humanity around because you find them tasty (and probably, judging by the tone, a far inferior form of life) showing much absence of evil? And, secondly, how many vampires actually do actively participate in an attempted apocalypse? Drusilla did, but Drusilla was mad, and basically just followed along a plan devised by Angelus. And Angelus had lasted a good century and a half as a completely evil demon with absolutely no soul before he tried to bring about armageddon, so something had definitely changed in that dynamic. Angelus was in a qualifiably different situation than Spike at the time: his entire world had changed, and he felt dirtied and compromised by his century with a soul. Spike and Drusilla both comment on his unhealthy fixation with Buffy and her friends during this period, suggesting that it was a little out of the norm, even given Angelus's usual MO (he gets really sloppy following Jenny Calendar's death, and nearly dies for it). He felt used, and I think there's a fair enough reason to doubt his mental stability: he needs to prove, to himself primarily, that he's still the big bad he once was, and this obsession overrides his usual reason and common sense, even, to a degree, his own self-preservation. He is, in his own way, almost as mad as Drusilla. This was not normal for him. Which is an important distinction because Spike, at the time, was at the most just a little frustrated. He was annoyed at the attention Drusilla had been paying Angelus, upset at his injury, and angry that he couldn't seem to defeat Buffy, but it was just a temporary thing. He firmly believed, as became clear in his deal with Buffy, that if he could just get himself and Drusilla out of Sunnydale, things would start looking up once more. He didn't have the obsessions eating at his mind like Angelus did, and was still essentially rational. And the perfectly normal, rational behavior for a creature with no moral code whatsoever is self-preservation: he had no reason (like Angelus) to prove anything by bringing about Hell on earth, and didn't like the change in his routine it would entail. So it made perfect sense for him to struggle to save his usual stomping grounds. Nobility or goodness don't enter into the picture. Everyone always says that Spike was never as evil as Angelus, but I think that seriously misreads the situation. They were both evil to the core. Furthermore, they absolutely loved reminding others of that fact. All Spike's temporary alliance with Buffy in "Becoming" proved was that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, it said nothing about Spike's goodness or evilness. > He still retained some of his humanity after he > became a vamp. Even the judge ruled that he reeked of humanity. Very true, but it doesn't say much. Humanity is not a antonym for "evil" in the Buffyverse. Humans can and do commit evil acts in full possession of their souls, and with malice aforethought. All that saying Spike reeked of humanity implied is what was later confirmed in "Becoming": that Spike had an emotional investment in certain aspects of human society. But, so did the Mayor. Hell, so did Glory. > He was unable to defeat her, and she became his obsession. This obsession > moved from hatred to grudging respect and admiration. No doubt. I think Spike had this pretty early on, if only because he admired that Buffy's ability to stand up to him, and ability to, well, not get killed. And I think its a key to his eventual feelings towards her. But I think this is more of a respect for basic personality traits like courage, bravery, loyalty, etc., none of which really have anything inherently connecting them with good or evil.

2003-01-27 13:56:54-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


"napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote in message news:<zj1Z9.5362$d66.487931@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > SOMETHING. > > > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > possessive hold it has on him. > > > > First of all, I don't think Spike was totally evil the way Angelus was. I think it kind of ran in his "family," actually. He, Darla, and Angelus (well, the original Angelus before his restoration in S2), practically reeked of humanity. Even the Master (his great-grandsire) essentially modelled his practices on a sort of perverted human familial hierarchy. I'm just not sure this made them notably less evil, particularly in the worldview of the Buffyverse. Humanity, of course, can be perfectly evil, even within accepted social norms: look at Mayor Wilkins, who represented society itself, and routinely described himself as a "family man," and who, just coincidentally, wanted to become a hideous snake demon and destroy the city. > teamed up with Buffy in "Becoming" because he didn't want the world to be > sucked into hell and he liked "Manchester bloody United' and all those > "happy meals on legs". Two things to consider here: is wanting to keep humanity around because you find them tasty (and probably, judging by the tone, a far inferior form of life) showing much absence of evil? And, secondly, how many vampires actually do actively participate in an attempted apocalypse? Drusilla did, but Drusilla was mad, and basically just followed along a plan devised by Angelus. And Angelus had lasted a good century and a half as a completely evil demon with absolutely no soul before he tried to bring about armageddon, so something had definitely changed in that dynamic. Angelus was in a qualifiably different situation than Spike at the time: his entire world had changed, and he felt dirtied and compromised by his century with a soul. Spike and Drusilla both comment on his unhealthy fixation with Buffy and her friends during this period, suggesting that it was a little out of the norm, even given Angelus's usual MO (he gets really sloppy following Jenny Calendar's death, and nearly dies for it). He felt used, and I think there's a fair enough reason to doubt his mental stability: he needs to prove, to himself primarily, that he's still the big bad he once was, and this obsession overrides his usual reason and common sense, even, to a degree, his own self-preservation. He is, in his own way, almost as mad as Drusilla. This was not normal for him. Which is an important distinction because Spike, at the time, was at the most just a little frustrated. He was annoyed at the attention Drusilla had been paying Angelus, upset at his injury, and angry that he couldn't seem to defeat Buffy, but it was just a temporary thing. He firmly believed, as became clear in his deal with Buffy, that if he could just get himself and Drusilla out of Sunnydale, things would start looking up once more. He didn't have the obsessions eating at his mind like Angelus did, and was still essentially rational. And the perfectly normal, rational behavior for a creature with no moral code whatsoever is self-preservation: he had no reason (like Angelus) to prove anything by bringing about Hell on earth, and didn't like the change in his routine it would entail. So it made perfect sense for him to struggle to save his usual stomping grounds. Nobility or goodness don't enter into the picture. Everyone always says that Spike was never as evil as Angelus, but I think that seriously misreads the situation. They were both evil to the core. Furthermore, they absolutely loved reminding others of that fact. All Spike's temporary alliance with Buffy in "Becoming" proved was that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, it said nothing about Spike's goodness or evilness. > He still retained some of his humanity after he > became a vamp. Even the judge ruled that he reeked of humanity. Very true, but it doesn't say much. Humanity is not a antonym for "evil" in the Buffyverse. Humans can and do commit evil acts in full possession of their souls, and with malice aforethought. All that saying Spike reeked of humanity implied is what was later confirmed in "Becoming": that Spike had an emotional investment in certain aspects of human society. But, so did the Mayor. Hell, so did Glory. > He was unable to defeat her, and she became his obsession. This obsession > moved from hatred to grudging respect and admiration. No doubt. I think Spike had this pretty early on, if only because he admired that Buffy's ability to stand up to him, and ability to, well, not get killed. And I think its a key to his eventual feelings towards her. But I think this is more of a respect for basic personality traits like courage, bravery, loyalty, etc., none of which really have anything inherently connecting them with good or evil.

2003-01-27 14:05:28-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<antarian-6E7127.00113027012003@newssvr16-ext.news.prodigy.com>... > Liam, on the other hand, was always a angry guy that felt the sting of > his father's hatred for him. To Liam, nothing was good enough for his > father. Liam could never win against his father. That anger made Angelus > a nasty guy. Nastier than he might have been if he'd started off as an > overly romantic writer of bad poems. Liam almost certainly had a harder edge to him, true. But both Liam and William shared one thing: just as Liam could never win again his father, and felt that sting forever, Spike's entire persona seems to have been concieved against the taunts and rejections he recieved as a human. People mocked his poetry, saying it was like having a railroad spike driven through their heads? Spike would show them what that *really* felt like. Even Spike's status as "big bad" could be concievably viewed as a reaction to Cecily's deeming of William as "beneath her." Liam may have started out nastier, but William almost certainly fell harder. Spike is all the creativity and imagination of a poet (even a notoriously bad one) twisted into a dark reflection of itself. So he probably did retain some of the humanistic qualities of William, and its quite possible that's what him the "fool for love" he's always been, but I kind of think that, for the most part, when this humanism emerged from Spike, it was usually not a particularly good thing (see the railroad spike example, for instance). The moral of the story, kiddies, is don't go pissing off any poets :)

2003-01-27 14:05:28-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<antarian-6E7127.00113027012003@newssvr16-ext.news.prodigy.com>... > Liam, on the other hand, was always a angry guy that felt the sting of > his father's hatred for him. To Liam, nothing was good enough for his > father. Liam could never win against his father. That anger made Angelus > a nasty guy. Nastier than he might have been if he'd started off as an > overly romantic writer of bad poems. Liam almost certainly had a harder edge to him, true. But both Liam and William shared one thing: just as Liam could never win again his father, and felt that sting forever, Spike's entire persona seems to have been concieved against the taunts and rejections he recieved as a human. People mocked his poetry, saying it was like having a railroad spike driven through their heads? Spike would show them what that *really* felt like. Even Spike's status as "big bad" could be concievably viewed as a reaction to Cecily's deeming of William as "beneath her." Liam may have started out nastier, but William almost certainly fell harder. Spike is all the creativity and imagination of a poet (even a notoriously bad one) twisted into a dark reflection of itself. So he probably did retain some of the humanistic qualities of William, and its quite possible that's what him the "fool for love" he's always been, but I kind of think that, for the most part, when this humanism emerged from Spike, it was usually not a particularly good thing (see the railroad spike example, for instance). The moral of the story, kiddies, is don't go pissing off any poets :)

2003-01-27 17:39:37-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <f259cf95.0301271356.7481e511@posting.google.com>, sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu (Sean Daugherty) wrote: > "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote in message > news:<zj1Z9.5362$d66.487931@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > > SOMETHING. > > > > > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > > possessive hold it has on him. > > > > > > > First of all, I don't think Spike was totally evil the way Angelus was. > > I think it kind of ran in his "family," actually. He, Darla, and > Angelus (well, the original Angelus before his restoration in S2), > practically reeked of humanity. Even the Master (his great-grandsire) > essentially modelled his practices on a sort of perverted human > familial hierarchy. I'm just not sure this made them notably less > evil, particularly in the worldview of the Buffyverse. Humanity, of > course, can be perfectly evil, even within accepted social norms: look > at Mayor Wilkins, who represented society itself, and routinely > described himself as a "family man," and who, just coincidentally, > wanted to become a hideous snake demon and destroy the city. > > > teamed up with Buffy in "Becoming" because he didn't want the world to be > > sucked into hell and he liked "Manchester bloody United' and all those > > "happy meals on legs". > > Two things to consider here: is wanting to keep humanity around > because you find them tasty (and probably, judging by the tone, a far > inferior form of life) showing much absence of evil? And, secondly, > how many vampires actually do actively participate in an attempted > apocalypse? Drusilla did, but Drusilla was mad, and basically just > followed along a plan devised by Angelus. And Angelus had lasted a > good century and a half as a completely evil demon with absolutely no > soul before he tried to bring about armageddon, so something had > definitely changed in that dynamic. What changed was the fact that Angelus had been imprisoned by the soul the gypsies forced on him. For over a hundred years he had to feel the guilt and remorse it forced upon him. Makes sense that after he was freed he'd do anything to prevent that from happening again, even going so far as to end the world. If I had to guess I'd say it was being forced to live with Liam's soul that burned all the humanity out of Angelus. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-01-27 17:39:37-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <f259cf95.0301271356.7481e511@posting.google.com>, sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu (Sean Daugherty) wrote: > "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote in message > news:<zj1Z9.5362$d66.487931@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > > > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > > SOMETHING. > > > > > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > > possessive hold it has on him. > > > > > > > First of all, I don't think Spike was totally evil the way Angelus was. > > I think it kind of ran in his "family," actually. He, Darla, and > Angelus (well, the original Angelus before his restoration in S2), > practically reeked of humanity. Even the Master (his great-grandsire) > essentially modelled his practices on a sort of perverted human > familial hierarchy. I'm just not sure this made them notably less > evil, particularly in the worldview of the Buffyverse. Humanity, of > course, can be perfectly evil, even within accepted social norms: look > at Mayor Wilkins, who represented society itself, and routinely > described himself as a "family man," and who, just coincidentally, > wanted to become a hideous snake demon and destroy the city. > > > teamed up with Buffy in "Becoming" because he didn't want the world to be > > sucked into hell and he liked "Manchester bloody United' and all those > > "happy meals on legs". > > Two things to consider here: is wanting to keep humanity around > because you find them tasty (and probably, judging by the tone, a far > inferior form of life) showing much absence of evil? And, secondly, > how many vampires actually do actively participate in an attempted > apocalypse? Drusilla did, but Drusilla was mad, and basically just > followed along a plan devised by Angelus. And Angelus had lasted a > good century and a half as a completely evil demon with absolutely no > soul before he tried to bring about armageddon, so something had > definitely changed in that dynamic. What changed was the fact that Angelus had been imprisoned by the soul the gypsies forced on him. For over a hundred years he had to feel the guilt and remorse it forced upon him. Makes sense that after he was freed he'd do anything to prevent that from happening again, even going so far as to end the world. If I had to guess I'd say it was being forced to live with Liam's soul that burned all the humanity out of Angelus. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-01-27 17:44:27-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <1faed770.0301271345.1ddc6452@posting.google.com>, reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: > Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message > news:<postmaster-2C0E30.21015026012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > In article <01793v05e4larja2stu64n1l9c2utgrm2u@4ax.com>, > > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net > > > (Ken Arromdee) wrote: > > > > > > >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, > > > >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > > >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > > >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > > >>SOMETHING. > > > >> > > > >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > > >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > > >>possessive hold it has on him. > > > > > > > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a turn > > > >on, > > > >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate turn-on > > > >for > > > >vampires. > > > > > > Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way > > > to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he > > > has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. > > > I guess the start of him having a soul. > > > > > > > Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it worked, > > he got some. > > --Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was > going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when > he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to > make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting > Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the > "getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. > He stood up to Glory so he could spit in her eye. He knew she'd kill him regardless of what he said because that's what he'd do to her if the situation was turned. He didn't want to give her the satifaction, that way even death would be a victory.

2003-01-27 17:44:27-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <1faed770.0301271345.1ddc6452@posting.google.com>, reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: > Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message > news:<postmaster-2C0E30.21015026012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > In article <01793v05e4larja2stu64n1l9c2utgrm2u@4ax.com>, > > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net > > > (Ken Arromdee) wrote: > > > > > > >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, > > > >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > > >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > > >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > > >>SOMETHING. > > > >> > > > >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > > >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > > >>possessive hold it has on him. > > > > > > > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a turn > > > >on, > > > >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate turn-on > > > >for > > > >vampires. > > > > > > Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way > > > to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he > > > has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. > > > I guess the start of him having a soul. > > > > > > > Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it worked, > > he got some. > > --Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was > going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when > he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to > make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting > Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the > "getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. > He stood up to Glory so he could spit in her eye. He knew she'd kill him regardless of what he said because that's what he'd do to her if the situation was turned. He didn't want to give her the satifaction, that way even death would be a victory.

2003-01-27 18:25:17-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On 27 Jan 2003 13:45:42 -0800, reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: >> >> Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it worked, >> he got some. > >--Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was >going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when >he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to >make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting >Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the >"getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. > >Oddly enough, people who actually love and care about other people >sometimes are nice and kind just for the beloved's benefit, not in >order to "get some." Maybe not in your life -- but in the world at >large it's a fairly well known phenomenon. > >Clairel I agree 100%. Saying he was doing it for 'sex' is pretty black and white. He did alot of things for Buffy that had nothing to do with sex. I doubt he would have cried over her - and like Dangerous Liaisons (in the beginning) she would have been just another conquest. But as time went on, he began to see her anew. He fell in love with the fact that she was strong (remember in 1977 in New York, he killed a slayer that he said he could have danced with all night). He loves the strong-willed - and the fact that she is gentle and giving is something that he is not used to. In fact, it has rubbed off on him - making him gentle and good-natured. If he was truly trying to get some, it would have all been an act.

2003-01-27 18:25:17-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On 27 Jan 2003 13:45:42 -0800, reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: >> >> Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it worked, >> he got some. > >--Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was >going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when >he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to >make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting >Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the >"getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. > >Oddly enough, people who actually love and care about other people >sometimes are nice and kind just for the beloved's benefit, not in >order to "get some." Maybe not in your life -- but in the world at >large it's a fairly well known phenomenon. > >Clairel I agree 100%. Saying he was doing it for 'sex' is pretty black and white. He did alot of things for Buffy that had nothing to do with sex. I doubt he would have cried over her - and like Dangerous Liaisons (in the beginning) she would have been just another conquest. But as time went on, he began to see her anew. He fell in love with the fact that she was strong (remember in 1977 in New York, he killed a slayer that he said he could have danced with all night). He loves the strong-willed - and the fact that she is gentle and giving is something that he is not used to. In fact, it has rubbed off on him - making him gentle and good-natured. If he was truly trying to get some, it would have all been an act.

2003-01-27 18:26:29-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On 27 Jan 2003 02:47:09 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com> wrote: >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in >news:r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com: > >> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? > >Well, he was around this super-powerful girl who was no longer quite >his enemy (or, at least, she wasn't trying to kill him anymore). She's >beautiful and loves to fight. With Dru out of the picture, she seems >exactly what he would want. As I understand it, Spike loved Dru so >there's no reason to think he couldn't love a non-vamp. But he was thinking about Buffy even when he was with Dru. Remember the South America Flashback in Fool for Love? She says he is always thinking about her and cannot get away from her.

2003-01-27 18:26:29-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On 27 Jan 2003 02:47:09 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com> wrote: >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in >news:r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com: > >> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? > >Well, he was around this super-powerful girl who was no longer quite >his enemy (or, at least, she wasn't trying to kill him anymore). She's >beautiful and loves to fight. With Dru out of the picture, she seems >exactly what he would want. As I understand it, Spike loved Dru so >there's no reason to think he couldn't love a non-vamp. But he was thinking about Buffy even when he was with Dru. Remember the South America Flashback in Fool for Love? She says he is always thinking about her and cannot get away from her.

2003-01-27 18:28:21-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 03:02:55 GMT, "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote: >> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they >> say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >> strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >> SOMETHING. >> >> I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >> there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >> possessive hold it has on him. >> > >First of all, I don't think Spike was totally evil the way Angelus was. He >teamed up with Buffy in "Becoming" because he didn't want the world to be >sucked into hell and he liked "Manchester bloody United' and all those >"happy meals on legs". He still retained some of his humanity after he >became a vamp. Even the judge ruled that he reeked of humanity. >He was unable to defeat her, and she became his obsession. This obsession >moved from hatred to grudging respect and admiration. I think her >qualities--bravery, loyalty, etc.-- touched something deep within him: the >humanity he still retained after being vamped. > I agree on some points, but Spike was a victim of love himself. When he wrote poetry and was laughed at - by his love and his peers. Then Dru hypnotised him, bit him and he became larger than ever. He was always ignored and laughed at - now the demon had him and he was able to best anyone (hence his addiction to killing slayers). But in the end, I think Spike wanted to be loved more than anything else.

2003-01-27 18:28:21-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 03:02:55 GMT, "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote: >> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they >> say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >> strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >> SOMETHING. >> >> I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >> there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >> possessive hold it has on him. >> > >First of all, I don't think Spike was totally evil the way Angelus was. He >teamed up with Buffy in "Becoming" because he didn't want the world to be >sucked into hell and he liked "Manchester bloody United' and all those >"happy meals on legs". He still retained some of his humanity after he >became a vamp. Even the judge ruled that he reeked of humanity. >He was unable to defeat her, and she became his obsession. This obsession >moved from hatred to grudging respect and admiration. I think her >qualities--bravery, loyalty, etc.-- touched something deep within him: the >humanity he still retained after being vamped. > I agree on some points, but Spike was a victim of love himself. When he wrote poetry and was laughed at - by his love and his peers. Then Dru hypnotised him, bit him and he became larger than ever. He was always ignored and laughed at - now the demon had him and he was able to best anyone (hence his addiction to killing slayers). But in the end, I think Spike wanted to be loved more than anything else.

2003-01-27 19:09:47-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sam_14042@yahoo.com)


Spike fell in love with Buffy for a number of reasons. One is relatively straightforward: He had strong feelings of lust toward her right from the getgo, even when they were mortal enemies. It was played as subtext from "School Hard" on, and became actual text in "Fool For Love" -- Spike's obsession with Slayers, right from the beginning, was an erotic one. For Spike, killing a Slayer and having sex with one were very nearly interchangeable. (Note the specific use of the "dance" metaphor in "Fool For Love", where Spike uses the term to apply to both his murders of the previous two Slayers and his desires toward Buffy.) Second is, as many have pointed out, the obsession that built and built when he found himself repeatedly stymied by this particular Slayer. Homicidal lust turned into homicidal obsession. And then he got the chip, and suddenly he still had all that obsession and homicidal lust... except that he couldn't perform homicide anymore. Then throw in a third factor. And this is something that was repeated more than once (including at least once to Spike's face, at which point he seemed to accept it as a valid statement.) The idea that as twisted and demonic as he was, Spike's love of pain is what made him develop affection for Buffy initially. She was better than anyone he ever met at inflicting pain on him, and in Spike's mind, that equated to romantic behavior. The thing is, despite all its twisted and demonic origins, Spike was in fact still human enough to be capable of actual love. It was buried in a nest of sadism and masochism and psychotic temper and, well, evil, but eventually actual love formed inside of all of that. So you get a progression from homicidal lust to homicidal obsession to non-homicidal obsession to love of pain to actual love of Buffy.

2003-01-27 19:09:47-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sam_14042@yahoo.com)


Spike fell in love with Buffy for a number of reasons. One is relatively straightforward: He had strong feelings of lust toward her right from the getgo, even when they were mortal enemies. It was played as subtext from "School Hard" on, and became actual text in "Fool For Love" -- Spike's obsession with Slayers, right from the beginning, was an erotic one. For Spike, killing a Slayer and having sex with one were very nearly interchangeable. (Note the specific use of the "dance" metaphor in "Fool For Love", where Spike uses the term to apply to both his murders of the previous two Slayers and his desires toward Buffy.) Second is, as many have pointed out, the obsession that built and built when he found himself repeatedly stymied by this particular Slayer. Homicidal lust turned into homicidal obsession. And then he got the chip, and suddenly he still had all that obsession and homicidal lust... except that he couldn't perform homicide anymore. Then throw in a third factor. And this is something that was repeated more than once (including at least once to Spike's face, at which point he seemed to accept it as a valid statement.) The idea that as twisted and demonic as he was, Spike's love of pain is what made him develop affection for Buffy initially. She was better than anyone he ever met at inflicting pain on him, and in Spike's mind, that equated to romantic behavior. The thing is, despite all its twisted and demonic origins, Spike was in fact still human enough to be capable of actual love. It was buried in a nest of sadism and masochism and psychotic temper and, well, evil, but eventually actual love formed inside of all of that. So you get a progression from homicidal lust to homicidal obsession to non-homicidal obsession to love of pain to actual love of Buffy.

2003-01-27 19:50:24-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <Xns9310CD201F454dannyboymcnyhotmailc@130.133.1.4>, Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com> wrote: > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in > news:00gb3vcqknb0r6srqp9nt8hh16fh0ftumu@4ax.com: > > > On 27 Jan 2003 02:47:09 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >>david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in > >>news:r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com: > >> > >>> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? > >> > >>Well, he was around this super-powerful girl who was no longer quite > >>his enemy (or, at least, she wasn't trying to kill him anymore). > >>She's beautiful and loves to fight. With Dru out of the picture, she > >>seems exactly what he would want. As I understand it, Spike loved > >>Dru so there's no reason to think he couldn't love a non-vamp. > > > > But he was thinking about Buffy even when he was with Dru. Remember > > the South America Flashback in Fool for Love? She says he is always > > thinking about her and cannot get away from her. > > Maybe, but I don't think Spike loved her at that time. Most likely > Spike hated Buffy at that point and was angry because she was able to > defeat him. He didn't start to fall for Buffy until he was back in > Sunnydale and "living" with Harmony. Yeah... he was obsessing about Buffy big time back then... but it was mostly because she kept on defeating his dastardly deeds.

2003-01-27 19:50:24-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <Xns9310CD201F454dannyboymcnyhotmailc@130.133.1.4>, Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com> wrote: > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in > news:00gb3vcqknb0r6srqp9nt8hh16fh0ftumu@4ax.com: > > > On 27 Jan 2003 02:47:09 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >>david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in > >>news:r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com: > >> > >>> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? > >> > >>Well, he was around this super-powerful girl who was no longer quite > >>his enemy (or, at least, she wasn't trying to kill him anymore). > >>She's beautiful and loves to fight. With Dru out of the picture, she > >>seems exactly what he would want. As I understand it, Spike loved > >>Dru so there's no reason to think he couldn't love a non-vamp. > > > > But he was thinking about Buffy even when he was with Dru. Remember > > the South America Flashback in Fool for Love? She says he is always > > thinking about her and cannot get away from her. > > Maybe, but I don't think Spike loved her at that time. Most likely > Spike hated Buffy at that point and was angry because she was able to > defeat him. He didn't start to fall for Buffy until he was back in > Sunnydale and "living" with Harmony. Yeah... he was obsessing about Buffy big time back then... but it was mostly because she kept on defeating his dastardly deeds.

2003-01-27 19:54:34+00:00 - Re: Why did Angel fall in love? - (mandrake <rmdy@ADDAGATTHESTART.yahoo.co.uk>)


bergeg@parl.gc.ca (NightBaron) wrote in news:24ab6293.0301271151.41983331@posting.google.com: > "Prodigy" <ProdigyUK1@aol.com> wrote in message > news:<3e34d2fb@nexus.comcen.com.au>... >> > >> > I'd like to ask the same question re Angel. Why did he fall in love >> > with Buffy? > > Angel fell in love with Buffy because she was his salvation. When > Angel got a soul and started his 100-year guilt trip, he lost whatever > good he had in his life and dwelled in his misery. He had no desires, > no urge, no driving force. He was a shell. > > When Whistler met up with him and showed him Buffy, he gave Angel > something that he could use. Angel never believed that as a vampire > he could make a difference, never thought that he could get past his > past misdeeds, yet he got that chance through Buffy. And the fact > that she saw past it as well, and actually cared about him finally > gave him a reason to live. > > In Buffy was his newfound life, she represented everything that was > good about him. Every good deed he did he lay at her feet. In the > end, Buffy was his everything. Until he found that they could never > be together again, and (with her help) was able to see that he could > do good by himself. > That's a good summation, food for thought. Kudos.

2003-01-27 19:54:34+00:00 - Re: Why did Angel fall in love? - (mandrake <rmdy@ADDAGATTHESTART.yahoo.co.uk>)


bergeg@parl.gc.ca (NightBaron) wrote in news:24ab6293.0301271151.41983331@posting.google.com: > "Prodigy" <ProdigyUK1@aol.com> wrote in message > news:<3e34d2fb@nexus.comcen.com.au>... >> > >> > I'd like to ask the same question re Angel. Why did he fall in love >> > with Buffy? > > Angel fell in love with Buffy because she was his salvation. When > Angel got a soul and started his 100-year guilt trip, he lost whatever > good he had in his life and dwelled in his misery. He had no desires, > no urge, no driving force. He was a shell. > > When Whistler met up with him and showed him Buffy, he gave Angel > something that he could use. Angel never believed that as a vampire > he could make a difference, never thought that he could get past his > past misdeeds, yet he got that chance through Buffy. And the fact > that she saw past it as well, and actually cared about him finally > gave him a reason to live. > > In Buffy was his newfound life, she represented everything that was > good about him. Every good deed he did he lay at her feet. In the > end, Buffy was his everything. Until he found that they could never > be together again, and (with her help) was able to see that he could > do good by himself. > That's a good summation, food for thought. Kudos.

2003-01-27 19:57:37-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>: >So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they >say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >SOMETHING. > >I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >possessive hold it has on him. So nobody thinks or ever thought it was a side-effect of the chip? I thought that for a long time. And I thought that's why Spike went to Africa to get the chip out -- so that he could lose the feelings he had for Buffy. I suppose plot developments have proven that idea wrong, but if ME wanted they could still go there. I think :) -- "Ours is not an easy age, we're like tigers in a cage. What a town without pity can do!" -- D. Tiomkin and N. Washington

2003-01-27 19:57:37-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>: >So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they >say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >SOMETHING. > >I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >possessive hold it has on him. So nobody thinks or ever thought it was a side-effect of the chip? I thought that for a long time. And I thought that's why Spike went to Africa to get the chip out -- so that he could lose the feelings he had for Buffy. I suppose plot developments have proven that idea wrong, but if ME wanted they could still go there. I think :) -- "Ours is not an easy age, we're like tigers in a cage. What a town without pity can do!" -- D. Tiomkin and N. Washington

2003-01-27 21:39:35-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <21ced21e.0301271909.57c8a93f@posting.google.com>, sam_14042@yahoo.com (Sam) wrote: > Spike fell in love with Buffy for a number of reasons. > > One is relatively straightforward: He had strong feelings of lust > toward her right from the getgo, even when they were mortal enemies. > It was played as subtext from "School Hard" on, and became actual text > in "Fool For Love" -- Spike's obsession with Slayers, right from the > beginning, was an erotic one. For Spike, killing a Slayer and having > sex with one were very nearly interchangeable. (Note the specific use > of the "dance" metaphor in "Fool For Love", where Spike uses the term > to apply to both his murders of the previous two Slayers and his > desires toward Buffy.) > > Second is, as many have pointed out, the obsession that built and > built when he found himself repeatedly stymied by this particular > Slayer. Homicidal lust turned into homicidal obsession. > > And then he got the chip, and suddenly he still had all that obsession > and homicidal lust... except that he couldn't perform homicide > anymore. > > Then throw in a third factor. And this is something that was repeated > more than once (including at least once to Spike's face, at which > point he seemed to accept it as a valid statement.) The idea that as > twisted and demonic as he was, Spike's love of pain is what made him > develop affection for Buffy initially. She was better than anyone he > ever met at inflicting pain on him, and in Spike's mind, that equated > to romantic behavior. > > The thing is, despite all its twisted and demonic origins, Spike was > in fact still human enough to be capable of actual love. No one is arging that vampires can't feel love. They've stated that themselves... they just don't do it wisely, as Spike proved very well himself. --

2003-01-27 21:39:35-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <21ced21e.0301271909.57c8a93f@posting.google.com>, sam_14042@yahoo.com (Sam) wrote: > Spike fell in love with Buffy for a number of reasons. > > One is relatively straightforward: He had strong feelings of lust > toward her right from the getgo, even when they were mortal enemies. > It was played as subtext from "School Hard" on, and became actual text > in "Fool For Love" -- Spike's obsession with Slayers, right from the > beginning, was an erotic one. For Spike, killing a Slayer and having > sex with one were very nearly interchangeable. (Note the specific use > of the "dance" metaphor in "Fool For Love", where Spike uses the term > to apply to both his murders of the previous two Slayers and his > desires toward Buffy.) > > Second is, as many have pointed out, the obsession that built and > built when he found himself repeatedly stymied by this particular > Slayer. Homicidal lust turned into homicidal obsession. > > And then he got the chip, and suddenly he still had all that obsession > and homicidal lust... except that he couldn't perform homicide > anymore. > > Then throw in a third factor. And this is something that was repeated > more than once (including at least once to Spike's face, at which > point he seemed to accept it as a valid statement.) The idea that as > twisted and demonic as he was, Spike's love of pain is what made him > develop affection for Buffy initially. She was better than anyone he > ever met at inflicting pain on him, and in Spike's mind, that equated > to romantic behavior. > > The thing is, despite all its twisted and demonic origins, Spike was > in fact still human enough to be capable of actual love. No one is arging that vampires can't feel love. They've stated that themselves... they just don't do it wisely, as Spike proved very well himself. --

2003-01-27 22:34:13-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (lynxa101@aol.com)


Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1blb3v02khlhov4o5vjne5bemliab9mgsn@4ax.com>... > > So nobody thinks or ever thought it was a side-effect of the chip? I > thought that for a long time. And I thought that's why Spike went to > Africa to get the chip out -- so that he could lose the feelings he > had for Buffy. > Er no, Spike went to Africa to get his soul back so Buffy would see him as a man, and would love him as much as he loved her. It's in the episodes. And as others have said he had feelings for Buffy way before the chip, Drusilla even dumped him because of that. I think it was just because William's spirit was a lot stronger that unlike most vampires he could hold the demon in check to a degree. Notice how much quicker Spike adjusted to having his soul back than Angel did, in spite of the First Evil really messing around with his head. I'd say prechip William was in control maybe 30% of the time, with the chip 60%, with his soul back but bonkers and the First Evil mucking around in his head- via the chip around 90%, and at this point we're probably around 95%, and if the rumors about what's going to happen are true and the chip is removed William will be 100% in control. Some people complain about how "wimpy" Spike became after he fell for Buffy, but I feel different, I think the character is much more stronger- more a man, since he broke free of Drusilla's hold on him.

2003-01-27 22:34:13-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (lynxa101@aol.com)


Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1blb3v02khlhov4o5vjne5bemliab9mgsn@4ax.com>... > > So nobody thinks or ever thought it was a side-effect of the chip? I > thought that for a long time. And I thought that's why Spike went to > Africa to get the chip out -- so that he could lose the feelings he > had for Buffy. > Er no, Spike went to Africa to get his soul back so Buffy would see him as a man, and would love him as much as he loved her. It's in the episodes. And as others have said he had feelings for Buffy way before the chip, Drusilla even dumped him because of that. I think it was just because William's spirit was a lot stronger that unlike most vampires he could hold the demon in check to a degree. Notice how much quicker Spike adjusted to having his soul back than Angel did, in spite of the First Evil really messing around with his head. I'd say prechip William was in control maybe 30% of the time, with the chip 60%, with his soul back but bonkers and the First Evil mucking around in his head- via the chip around 90%, and at this point we're probably around 95%, and if the rumors about what's going to happen are true and the chip is removed William will be 100% in control. Some people complain about how "wimpy" Spike became after he fell for Buffy, but I feel different, I think the character is much more stronger- more a man, since he broke free of Drusilla's hold on him.

2003-01-27 22:50:01-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


"napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote in message news:<4OmZ9.7315$U27.677782@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > I think that after being chipped and hanging with the Scoobs, he did change > his ways a bit. After Joyce died he took flowers over because she had always > been good to him. You can argue that it was just to get Buffy, but if you > take his statement at face value it was just a decent thing to do. No, I agree. But I think where we differ is in whether or not this is an inherently good thing. He liked Joyce, and was sorry she passed away, but this did not make him a good person any more than his most likely genuine love for Drusilla made him one. He still considered himself evil, and the only things preventing him from acting on that were a combination of the chip and his desire to impress Buffy. Remember, the Master cried over the loss of Darla, and Mayor Wilkins was horrified at what happened to Faith, and both were pretty much unrepentantly evil. The problem I had with a lot of redemptionist talk at the time was that Spike's selfish desire to maintain a social group made him "good." Or even that emotions like remorse don't neccessarily imply goodness. Spike may very well have been sad that Joyce was gone, but its only specific remorse for his own misdeeds that implies any degree of redemption on his part. > Also, after being rejected by Buffy he pleaded with her that "a man can > change". She dismisses him as an evil thing, and he goes off and tries to > prove it. This occurs after he hit Buffy and felt no pain. When he corners > his intended victim, he has to talk himself into hurting her, convincing > himself that he is evil. You can sense how reluctant he was. Again, I'm not entirely sure what was at work in that scene, but I think its deeper than you're giving it credit for. I think Spike's reaction is more significantly a sign of nervousness and uncertainty, and, at best, I think his hesitation stems more from a concern over how it affects his relationship with Buffy and the Scoobies. What people tend to forget about that scene is Spike's motivation for going after a victim in the first place. If he were truly concerned with issues of good and evil, right and wrong, why attack her to begin with? I think a lot of things were going through Spike's head at the time, and I think it did go to show a lot about where Spike's character had evolved to, but I don't think it said much about whether or not he still qualified as evil. > I think he saw Buffy as noble and wanted to be worthy of her and made an > effort to genuinely change. I think he did, as well, but I don't think he ever really made that change beyond a surface level. He wore the white hat, but he never really felt it. It was essentially a conditioned response to what he believed Buffy would find desirable in a partner. Naturally, this involved not colluding with world destroying entities, selling out her friends, or randomly attacking passersby. Buffy saw through this (as, indeed, did almost everyone other than Spike himself, and, very briefly, Dawn) and this is why Buffy continually rejected him. Spike's love didn't make him good, and he was still to dangerous to trust, let alone reciprocate feelings for. This is how Spike's feelings for Buffy have been portrayed from the beginning: he was sincere, but sincerity wasn't the issue. At his core, he never wanted to be good, he wanted to please Buffy. All told, he probably would have considered it preferable if Buffy were to just embrace evil herself. Spike, pre-soul, was never noble, and never acted out of altruistic intent, which is what I would consider prerequisites for "goodness." He was a romantic, a fool for love. He would, and did, move mountains to prove his devotion to Buffy. But what he never understood, and what I think he only began to grasp during after the attempted rape, was that proving his devotion wasn't enough. Buffy *knew* that (and probably figured out sometime late in S5), but it didn't change her position.

2003-01-27 22:50:01-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


"napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote in message news:<4OmZ9.7315$U27.677782@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > I think that after being chipped and hanging with the Scoobs, he did change > his ways a bit. After Joyce died he took flowers over because she had always > been good to him. You can argue that it was just to get Buffy, but if you > take his statement at face value it was just a decent thing to do. No, I agree. But I think where we differ is in whether or not this is an inherently good thing. He liked Joyce, and was sorry she passed away, but this did not make him a good person any more than his most likely genuine love for Drusilla made him one. He still considered himself evil, and the only things preventing him from acting on that were a combination of the chip and his desire to impress Buffy. Remember, the Master cried over the loss of Darla, and Mayor Wilkins was horrified at what happened to Faith, and both were pretty much unrepentantly evil. The problem I had with a lot of redemptionist talk at the time was that Spike's selfish desire to maintain a social group made him "good." Or even that emotions like remorse don't neccessarily imply goodness. Spike may very well have been sad that Joyce was gone, but its only specific remorse for his own misdeeds that implies any degree of redemption on his part. > Also, after being rejected by Buffy he pleaded with her that "a man can > change". She dismisses him as an evil thing, and he goes off and tries to > prove it. This occurs after he hit Buffy and felt no pain. When he corners > his intended victim, he has to talk himself into hurting her, convincing > himself that he is evil. You can sense how reluctant he was. Again, I'm not entirely sure what was at work in that scene, but I think its deeper than you're giving it credit for. I think Spike's reaction is more significantly a sign of nervousness and uncertainty, and, at best, I think his hesitation stems more from a concern over how it affects his relationship with Buffy and the Scoobies. What people tend to forget about that scene is Spike's motivation for going after a victim in the first place. If he were truly concerned with issues of good and evil, right and wrong, why attack her to begin with? I think a lot of things were going through Spike's head at the time, and I think it did go to show a lot about where Spike's character had evolved to, but I don't think it said much about whether or not he still qualified as evil. > I think he saw Buffy as noble and wanted to be worthy of her and made an > effort to genuinely change. I think he did, as well, but I don't think he ever really made that change beyond a surface level. He wore the white hat, but he never really felt it. It was essentially a conditioned response to what he believed Buffy would find desirable in a partner. Naturally, this involved not colluding with world destroying entities, selling out her friends, or randomly attacking passersby. Buffy saw through this (as, indeed, did almost everyone other than Spike himself, and, very briefly, Dawn) and this is why Buffy continually rejected him. Spike's love didn't make him good, and he was still to dangerous to trust, let alone reciprocate feelings for. This is how Spike's feelings for Buffy have been portrayed from the beginning: he was sincere, but sincerity wasn't the issue. At his core, he never wanted to be good, he wanted to please Buffy. All told, he probably would have considered it preferable if Buffy were to just embrace evil herself. Spike, pre-soul, was never noble, and never acted out of altruistic intent, which is what I would consider prerequisites for "goodness." He was a romantic, a fool for love. He would, and did, move mountains to prove his devotion to Buffy. But what he never understood, and what I think he only began to grasp during after the attempted rape, was that proving his devotion wasn't enough. Buffy *knew* that (and probably figured out sometime late in S5), but it didn't change her position.

2003-01-27 23:37:24+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sillyman@famous.com)


On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:25:17 -0500, david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > >I agree 100%. Saying he was doing it for 'sex' is pretty black and >white. He did alot of things for Buffy that had nothing to do with >sex. I doubt he would have cried over her - and like Dangerous >Liaisons (in the beginning) she would have been just another conquest. >But as time went on, he began to see her anew. You probably have something there. That doesn't rule out his better behaviour in the beginning as a tactic to get into her pants. > He loves >the strong-willed - and the fact that she is gentle and giving is >something that he is not used to. Um . . . if Buffy is strong willed why did she keep giving it up for a murderous monster when she had to know that only self destructive and other bad things could come from it? As for gentle, Buffy herself has said she treated him cruelly. Many other posters have gone at length about what a bitca she was last season. > In fact, it has rubbed off on him - >making him gentle and good-natured. If her behaviour has rubbed off on him, well, God help the Scoobies.

2003-01-27 23:37:24+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sillyman@famous.com)


On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:25:17 -0500, david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > >I agree 100%. Saying he was doing it for 'sex' is pretty black and >white. He did alot of things for Buffy that had nothing to do with >sex. I doubt he would have cried over her - and like Dangerous >Liaisons (in the beginning) she would have been just another conquest. >But as time went on, he began to see her anew. You probably have something there. That doesn't rule out his better behaviour in the beginning as a tactic to get into her pants. > He loves >the strong-willed - and the fact that she is gentle and giving is >something that he is not used to. Um . . . if Buffy is strong willed why did she keep giving it up for a murderous monster when she had to know that only self destructive and other bad things could come from it? As for gentle, Buffy herself has said she treated him cruelly. Many other posters have gone at length about what a bitca she was last season. > In fact, it has rubbed off on him - >making him gentle and good-natured. If her behaviour has rubbed off on him, well, God help the Scoobies.

2003-01-27 23:42:48-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (himiko@animail.net)


sam_14042@yahoo.com (Sam) wrote in message news:<21ced21e.0301271909.57c8a93f@posting.google.com>... > Spike fell in love with Buffy for a number of reasons. > > One is relatively straightforward: He had strong feelings of lust > toward her right from the getgo, even when they were mortal enemies. > It was played as subtext from "School Hard" on, and became actual text > in "Fool For Love" -- Spike's obsession with Slayers, right from the > beginning, was an erotic one. For Spike, killing a Slayer and having > sex with one were very nearly interchangeable. (Note the specific use > of the "dance" metaphor in "Fool For Love", where Spike uses the term > to apply to both his murders of the previous two Slayers and his > desires toward Buffy.) > > Second is, as many have pointed out, the obsession that built and > built when he found himself repeatedly stymied by this particular > Slayer. Homicidal lust turned into homicidal obsession. > > And then he got the chip, and suddenly he still had all that obsession > and homicidal lust... except that he couldn't perform homicide > anymore. > > Then throw in a third factor. And this is something that was repeated > more than once (including at least once to Spike's face, at which > point he seemed to accept it as a valid statement.) The idea that as > twisted and demonic as he was, Spike's love of pain is what made him > develop affection for Buffy initially. She was better than anyone he > ever met at inflicting pain on him, and in Spike's mind, that equated > to romantic behavior. > > The thing is, despite all its twisted and demonic origins, Spike was > in fact still human enough to be capable of actual love. It was buried > in a nest of sadism and masochism and psychotic temper and, well, > evil, but eventually actual love formed inside of all of that. > > So you get a progression from homicidal lust to homicidal obsession to > non-homicidal obsession to love of pain to actual love of Buffy. Wow. Really great synopsis of Spike's story arc. himiko

2003-01-27 23:42:48-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (himiko@animail.net)


sam_14042@yahoo.com (Sam) wrote in message news:<21ced21e.0301271909.57c8a93f@posting.google.com>... > Spike fell in love with Buffy for a number of reasons. > > One is relatively straightforward: He had strong feelings of lust > toward her right from the getgo, even when they were mortal enemies. > It was played as subtext from "School Hard" on, and became actual text > in "Fool For Love" -- Spike's obsession with Slayers, right from the > beginning, was an erotic one. For Spike, killing a Slayer and having > sex with one were very nearly interchangeable. (Note the specific use > of the "dance" metaphor in "Fool For Love", where Spike uses the term > to apply to both his murders of the previous two Slayers and his > desires toward Buffy.) > > Second is, as many have pointed out, the obsession that built and > built when he found himself repeatedly stymied by this particular > Slayer. Homicidal lust turned into homicidal obsession. > > And then he got the chip, and suddenly he still had all that obsession > and homicidal lust... except that he couldn't perform homicide > anymore. > > Then throw in a third factor. And this is something that was repeated > more than once (including at least once to Spike's face, at which > point he seemed to accept it as a valid statement.) The idea that as > twisted and demonic as he was, Spike's love of pain is what made him > develop affection for Buffy initially. She was better than anyone he > ever met at inflicting pain on him, and in Spike's mind, that equated > to romantic behavior. > > The thing is, despite all its twisted and demonic origins, Spike was > in fact still human enough to be capable of actual love. It was buried > in a nest of sadism and masochism and psychotic temper and, well, > evil, but eventually actual love formed inside of all of that. > > So you get a progression from homicidal lust to homicidal obsession to > non-homicidal obsession to love of pain to actual love of Buffy. Wow. Really great synopsis of Spike's story arc. himiko

2003-01-27 23:49:10+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Rob Myers <robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net>)


In article <b1245d$ucqor$1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de>, Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net> wrote: > However, I think that the real trigger was "Something Blue". They were just > so right together; all us B/S shippers saw it, and I think something inside > Spike saw it too. Can I be blind too? -- rob m at rob myers dot net

2003-01-27 23:49:10+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Rob Myers <robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net>)


In article <b1245d$ucqor$1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de>, Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net> wrote: > However, I think that the real trigger was "Something Blue". They were just > so right together; all us B/S shippers saw it, and I think something inside > Spike saw it too. Can I be blind too? -- rob m at rob myers dot net

2003-01-28 00:06:51-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On 27 Jan 2003 12:23:56 -0800, lynxa101@aol.com (Keri) wrote: >PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<antarian-6E7127.00113027012003@newssvr16-ext.news.prodigy.com>... > >> I don't think that William was ever a bad guy. Not really. And little by >> little that has slipped out and shows in Spike. >> > >I think it must have been there all along. Spike's disinclination >towards torture, while Darla, Angelus and Drusilla loved it. (Spike at >times would even grimace when Angelus or Drusilla rhapsodied on about >it.) In Spike's very first appearence even, it was there, when Joyce >slammed him over the head and told him to get away from her daughter >he jumped back in shock and ran away, then later was freaking out >about a Slayer having a family and friends that cared about her. Spike >had seen the Slayer as much as monster, a threat to his family and >friends as the Slayer did him. All his interactions with Buffy >following that were colored by that realization. Showing first in the >way he acted toward Joyce, in Becomming he's more respectful towards >Joyce than Buffy is! And in Lover's Walk he's practically acting she's >his mother as he pours out his tale of woe about how Drusilla dumped >him. Drusilla dumped him because he was already falling in love with >Buffy. Excellent points and well put.

2003-01-28 00:06:51-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On 27 Jan 2003 12:23:56 -0800, lynxa101@aol.com (Keri) wrote: >PJ Browning <antarian@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<antarian-6E7127.00113027012003@newssvr16-ext.news.prodigy.com>... > >> I don't think that William was ever a bad guy. Not really. And little by >> little that has slipped out and shows in Spike. >> > >I think it must have been there all along. Spike's disinclination >towards torture, while Darla, Angelus and Drusilla loved it. (Spike at >times would even grimace when Angelus or Drusilla rhapsodied on about >it.) In Spike's very first appearence even, it was there, when Joyce >slammed him over the head and told him to get away from her daughter >he jumped back in shock and ran away, then later was freaking out >about a Slayer having a family and friends that cared about her. Spike >had seen the Slayer as much as monster, a threat to his family and >friends as the Slayer did him. All his interactions with Buffy >following that were colored by that realization. Showing first in the >way he acted toward Joyce, in Becomming he's more respectful towards >Joyce than Buffy is! And in Lover's Walk he's practically acting she's >his mother as he pours out his tale of woe about how Drusilla dumped >him. Drusilla dumped him because he was already falling in love with >Buffy. Excellent points and well put.

2003-01-28 00:09:23-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 03:29:04 GMT, "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote: >> > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they >> > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >> > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >> > SOMETHING. >> > >> > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >> > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >> > possessive hold it has on him. >> >> I'm afraid I just don't see it. Spike's initial feelings for Buffy may >> have been honest and true, but he never showed even a moment's desire >> to repent his evil, or to even really change his ways. > >I think that after being chipped and hanging with the Scoobs, he did change >his ways a bit. After Joyce died he took flowers over because she had always >been good to him. You can argue that it was just to get Buffy, but if you >take his statement at face value it was just a decent thing to do. >Also, after being rejected by Buffy he pleaded with her that "a man can >change". She dismisses him as an evil thing, and he goes off and tries to >prove it. This occurs after he hit Buffy and felt no pain. When he corners >his intended victim, he has to talk himself into hurting her, convincing >himself that he is evil. You can sense how reluctant he was. >I think he saw Buffy as noble and wanted to be worthy of her and made an >effort to genuinely change. >He never repented for his past victims though, but on step at a time. :) True, before this point, gestures of kindness and goodwill were seen as weakness in his eyes. But all of a sudden, he starts to see those gesture as so much more. BTW - which episode is it that Spike says 'A man can change'?

2003-01-28 00:09:23-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com>)


On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 03:29:04 GMT, "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote: >> > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they >> > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both >> > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >> > SOMETHING. >> > >> > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that >> > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the >> > possessive hold it has on him. >> >> I'm afraid I just don't see it. Spike's initial feelings for Buffy may >> have been honest and true, but he never showed even a moment's desire >> to repent his evil, or to even really change his ways. > >I think that after being chipped and hanging with the Scoobs, he did change >his ways a bit. After Joyce died he took flowers over because she had always >been good to him. You can argue that it was just to get Buffy, but if you >take his statement at face value it was just a decent thing to do. >Also, after being rejected by Buffy he pleaded with her that "a man can >change". She dismisses him as an evil thing, and he goes off and tries to >prove it. This occurs after he hit Buffy and felt no pain. When he corners >his intended victim, he has to talk himself into hurting her, convincing >himself that he is evil. You can sense how reluctant he was. >I think he saw Buffy as noble and wanted to be worthy of her and made an >effort to genuinely change. >He never repented for his past victims though, but on step at a time. :) True, before this point, gestures of kindness and goodwill were seen as weakness in his eyes. But all of a sudden, he starts to see those gesture as so much more. BTW - which episode is it that Spike says 'A man can change'?

2003-01-28 00:34:10+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (nimue <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com>)


Rob Myers wrote: > In article <b1245d$ucqor$1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de>, > Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net> wrote: > >> However, I think that the real trigger was "Something Blue". They >> were just so right together; all us B/S shippers saw it, and I think >> something inside Spike saw it too. > > Can I be blind too? No, Xander, sorry. And it will only get worse for you -- oh, never mind. You'll find out in Season 6. -- nimue "The schools are not as good as they used to be, and never were." - Will Rogers -

2003-01-28 00:34:10+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (nimue <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com>)


Rob Myers wrote: > In article <b1245d$ucqor$1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de>, > Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net> wrote: > >> However, I think that the real trigger was "Something Blue". They >> were just so right together; all us B/S shippers saw it, and I think >> something inside Spike saw it too. > > Can I be blind too? No, Xander, sorry. And it will only get worse for you -- oh, never mind. You'll find out in Season 6. -- nimue "The schools are not as good as they used to be, and never were." - Will Rogers -

2003-01-28 01:09:52+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com>)


david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in news:00gb3vcqknb0r6srqp9nt8hh16fh0ftumu@4ax.com: > On 27 Jan 2003 02:47:09 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >>david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in >>news:r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com: >> >>> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? >> >>Well, he was around this super-powerful girl who was no longer quite >>his enemy (or, at least, she wasn't trying to kill him anymore). >>She's beautiful and loves to fight. With Dru out of the picture, she >>seems exactly what he would want. As I understand it, Spike loved >>Dru so there's no reason to think he couldn't love a non-vamp. > > But he was thinking about Buffy even when he was with Dru. Remember > the South America Flashback in Fool for Love? She says he is always > thinking about her and cannot get away from her. Maybe, but I don't think Spike loved her at that time. Most likely Spike hated Buffy at that point and was angry because she was able to defeat him. He didn't start to fall for Buffy until he was back in Sunnydale and "living" with Harmony. -- Dan a.a. #1617

2003-01-28 01:09:52+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com>)


david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in news:00gb3vcqknb0r6srqp9nt8hh16fh0ftumu@4ax.com: > On 27 Jan 2003 02:47:09 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >>david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in >>news:r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com: >> >>> So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? >> >>Well, he was around this super-powerful girl who was no longer quite >>his enemy (or, at least, she wasn't trying to kill him anymore). >>She's beautiful and loves to fight. With Dru out of the picture, she >>seems exactly what he would want. As I understand it, Spike loved >>Dru so there's no reason to think he couldn't love a non-vamp. > > But he was thinking about Buffy even when he was with Dru. Remember > the South America Flashback in Fool for Love? She says he is always > thinking about her and cannot get away from her. Maybe, but I don't think Spike loved her at that time. Most likely Spike hated Buffy at that point and was angry because she was able to defeat him. He didn't start to fall for Buffy until he was back in Sunnydale and "living" with Harmony. -- Dan a.a. #1617

2003-01-28 03:29:04+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > SOMETHING. > > > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > possessive hold it has on him. > > I'm afraid I just don't see it. Spike's initial feelings for Buffy may > have been honest and true, but he never showed even a moment's desire > to repent his evil, or to even really change his ways. I think that after being chipped and hanging with the Scoobs, he did change his ways a bit. After Joyce died he took flowers over because she had always been good to him. You can argue that it was just to get Buffy, but if you take his statement at face value it was just a decent thing to do. Also, after being rejected by Buffy he pleaded with her that "a man can change". She dismisses him as an evil thing, and he goes off and tries to prove it. This occurs after he hit Buffy and felt no pain. When he corners his intended victim, he has to talk himself into hurting her, convincing himself that he is evil. You can sense how reluctant he was. I think he saw Buffy as noble and wanted to be worthy of her and made an effort to genuinely change. He never repented for his past victims though, but on step at a time. :) > > I think the more basic reason is a little more obvious: Spike loved > Buffy because he saw something in her personality that he found > compelling, and something that was more basic than "good" or "evil." > Buffy, in many respects like Drusilla, was possessed of an > occassionally fiery personality. She was never intimidated by Spike, > and remained an almost consistently even match for him, > personality-wise. Mix in perhaps a small amount of Stockholm Syndrome > (Spike was basically a "hostage" to the Scoobies while his chip was > still operating, to some degree relying on them both as his primary > social group and for protection), and I think Spike's behavior and > reactions begin to make sense.

2003-01-28 03:29:04+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> > So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > SOMETHING. > > > > I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > possessive hold it has on him. > > I'm afraid I just don't see it. Spike's initial feelings for Buffy may > have been honest and true, but he never showed even a moment's desire > to repent his evil, or to even really change his ways. I think that after being chipped and hanging with the Scoobs, he did change his ways a bit. After Joyce died he took flowers over because she had always been good to him. You can argue that it was just to get Buffy, but if you take his statement at face value it was just a decent thing to do. Also, after being rejected by Buffy he pleaded with her that "a man can change". She dismisses him as an evil thing, and he goes off and tries to prove it. This occurs after he hit Buffy and felt no pain. When he corners his intended victim, he has to talk himself into hurting her, convincing himself that he is evil. You can sense how reluctant he was. I think he saw Buffy as noble and wanted to be worthy of her and made an effort to genuinely change. He never repented for his past victims though, but on step at a time. :) > > I think the more basic reason is a little more obvious: Spike loved > Buffy because he saw something in her personality that he found > compelling, and something that was more basic than "good" or "evil." > Buffy, in many respects like Drusilla, was possessed of an > occassionally fiery personality. She was never intimidated by Spike, > and remained an almost consistently even match for him, > personality-wise. Mix in perhaps a small amount of Stockholm Syndrome > (Spike was basically a "hostage" to the Scoobies while his chip was > still operating, to some degree relying on them both as his primary > social group and for protection), and I think Spike's behavior and > reactions begin to make sense.

2003-01-28 04:30:45+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> > > > First of all, I don't think Spike was totally evil the way Angelus was. > > I think it kind of ran in his "family," actually. He, Darla, and > Angelus (well, the original Angelus before his restoration in S2), > practically reeked of humanity. Even the Master (his great-grandsire) > essentially modelled his practices on a sort of perverted human > familial hierarchy. I'm just not sure this made them notably less > evil, particularly in the worldview of the Buffyverse. Humanity, of > course, can be perfectly evil, even within accepted social norms: look > at Mayor Wilkins, who represented society itself, and routinely > described himself as a "family man," and who, just coincidentally, > wanted to become a hideous snake demon and destroy the city. I think in the Buffyverse worldview, humanity, in the sense that the judge meant it, is a good thing. Humans can be evil, but I believe the judge meant that Spike was capable of being good or of posessing nobler human traits and emotions such as love, altruism etc. He did go on to demonstrate these in later seasons. Mayor Wilkins was evil; his family man act was just a front. He did have paternal feelings for Faith though. > > > teamed up with Buffy in "Becoming" because he didn't want the world to be > > sucked into hell and he liked "Manchester bloody United' and all those > > "happy meals on legs". > > Two things to consider here: is wanting to keep humanity around > because you find them tasty (and probably, judging by the tone, a far > inferior form of life) showing much absence of evil? Yes, true. I pulled his exact quote from buffyguide.com. Here it is: Spike: "We like to talk big, vampires do. 'I'm going to destroy the world.' It's just tough guy talk. Strut round with your friends over a pint of blood... the truth is I like this world. You've got dog racing. Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here." I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say he wasn't totally evil since he did like dog racing and ManU. Apart from taste, I think he did like humanity for humanity's sake. Does a fondness for humanity constitute a non-totality of evil? IMO, yes. Also, how can we forget he watched "Passions". OK maybe the last would be evidence of evil. And, secondly, > how many vampires actually do actively participate in an attempted > apocalypse? Drusilla did, but Drusilla was mad, and basically just > followed along a plan devised by Angelus. There were a number of other vamps working with them. Remember in the Library when Dru killed Kendra?. When Buffy attacked the mansion to stop the ceremony there there were Vamps providing security as well. They were all Angel's boys and they were all in on it. And Angelus had lasted a > good century and a half as a completely evil demon with absolutely no > soul before he tried to bring about armageddon, so something had > definitely changed in that dynamic. I don't think he ever had the opportunity before. He may have if the chance presented itself. We can only speculate. > > Angelus was in a qualifiably different situation than Spike at the > time: his entire world had changed, and he felt dirtied and > compromised by his century with a soul. Spike and Drusilla both > comment on his unhealthy fixation with Buffy and her friends during > this period, suggesting that it was a little out of the norm, even > given Angelus's usual MO (he gets really sloppy following Jenny > Calendar's death, and nearly dies for it). He felt used, and I think > there's a fair enough reason to doubt his mental stability: he needs > to prove, to himself primarily, that he's still the big bad he once > was, and this obsession overrides his usual reason and common sense, > even, to a degree, his own self-preservation. He is, in his own way, > almost as mad as Drusilla. This was not normal for him. Arguable. > > Which is an important distinction because Spike, at the time, was at > the most just a little frustrated. He was annoyed at the attention > Drusilla had been paying Angelus, upset at his injury, and angry that > he couldn't seem to defeat Buffy, but it was just a temporary thing. > He firmly believed, as became clear in his deal with Buffy, that if he > could just get himself and Drusilla out of Sunnydale, things would > start looking up once more. He didn't have the obsessions eating at > his mind like Angelus did, and was still essentially rational. And the > perfectly normal, rational behavior for a creature with no moral code > whatsoever is self-preservation: he had no reason (like Angelus) to > prove anything by bringing about Hell on earth, and didn't like the > change in his routine it would entail. So it made perfect sense for > him to struggle to save his usual stomping grounds. Nobility or > goodness don't enter into the picture. I'm not sure, but I think sucking the world into the demonic reality would have been bad for humans--eternal torment and all that, but good for demons. It would be seen by most vamps and demons as an upgrade. This is arguable to be sure. The fact that Spike goes against this "upgrade" to maintain the status quo indicates some positive feeling towards humanity. > > Everyone always says that Spike was never as evil as Angelus, but I > think that seriously misreads the situation. They were both evil to > the core. Furthermore, they absolutely loved reminding others of that > fact. Just big vamp talk:"I'm more evil than you" "No, I am"etc, All Spike's temporary alliance with Buffy in "Becoming" proved > was that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, it said nothing about > Spike's goodness or evilness. Perhaps > > > He still retained some of his humanity after he > > became a vamp. Even the judge ruled that he reeked of humanity. > > Very true, but it doesn't say much. Humanity is not a antonym for > "evil" in the Buffyverse. I think it is, as I explained above. Humans can and do commit evil acts in full > possession of their souls, and with malice aforethought. All that > saying Spike reeked of humanity implied is what was later confirmed in > "Becoming": that Spike had an emotional investment in certain aspects > of human society. But, so did the Mayor. Hell, so did Glory. Yes, the nature and depth of his emotional investment is what's important. > > > He was unable to defeat her, and she became his obsession. This obsession > > moved from hatred to grudging respect and admiration. > > No doubt. I think Spike had this pretty early on, if only because he > admired that Buffy's ability to stand up to him, and ability to, well, > not get killed. And I think its a key to his eventual feelings towards > her. But I think this is more of a respect for basic personality > traits like courage, bravery, loyalty, etc., none of which really have > anything inherently connecting them with good or evil. I think there's a moral component to bravery and courage. IMO they imply altruism and are inherently good.

2003-01-28 04:30:45+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> > > > First of all, I don't think Spike was totally evil the way Angelus was. > > I think it kind of ran in his "family," actually. He, Darla, and > Angelus (well, the original Angelus before his restoration in S2), > practically reeked of humanity. Even the Master (his great-grandsire) > essentially modelled his practices on a sort of perverted human > familial hierarchy. I'm just not sure this made them notably less > evil, particularly in the worldview of the Buffyverse. Humanity, of > course, can be perfectly evil, even within accepted social norms: look > at Mayor Wilkins, who represented society itself, and routinely > described himself as a "family man," and who, just coincidentally, > wanted to become a hideous snake demon and destroy the city. I think in the Buffyverse worldview, humanity, in the sense that the judge meant it, is a good thing. Humans can be evil, but I believe the judge meant that Spike was capable of being good or of posessing nobler human traits and emotions such as love, altruism etc. He did go on to demonstrate these in later seasons. Mayor Wilkins was evil; his family man act was just a front. He did have paternal feelings for Faith though. > > > teamed up with Buffy in "Becoming" because he didn't want the world to be > > sucked into hell and he liked "Manchester bloody United' and all those > > "happy meals on legs". > > Two things to consider here: is wanting to keep humanity around > because you find them tasty (and probably, judging by the tone, a far > inferior form of life) showing much absence of evil? Yes, true. I pulled his exact quote from buffyguide.com. Here it is: Spike: "We like to talk big, vampires do. 'I'm going to destroy the world.' It's just tough guy talk. Strut round with your friends over a pint of blood... the truth is I like this world. You've got dog racing. Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here." I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say he wasn't totally evil since he did like dog racing and ManU. Apart from taste, I think he did like humanity for humanity's sake. Does a fondness for humanity constitute a non-totality of evil? IMO, yes. Also, how can we forget he watched "Passions". OK maybe the last would be evidence of evil. And, secondly, > how many vampires actually do actively participate in an attempted > apocalypse? Drusilla did, but Drusilla was mad, and basically just > followed along a plan devised by Angelus. There were a number of other vamps working with them. Remember in the Library when Dru killed Kendra?. When Buffy attacked the mansion to stop the ceremony there there were Vamps providing security as well. They were all Angel's boys and they were all in on it. And Angelus had lasted a > good century and a half as a completely evil demon with absolutely no > soul before he tried to bring about armageddon, so something had > definitely changed in that dynamic. I don't think he ever had the opportunity before. He may have if the chance presented itself. We can only speculate. > > Angelus was in a qualifiably different situation than Spike at the > time: his entire world had changed, and he felt dirtied and > compromised by his century with a soul. Spike and Drusilla both > comment on his unhealthy fixation with Buffy and her friends during > this period, suggesting that it was a little out of the norm, even > given Angelus's usual MO (he gets really sloppy following Jenny > Calendar's death, and nearly dies for it). He felt used, and I think > there's a fair enough reason to doubt his mental stability: he needs > to prove, to himself primarily, that he's still the big bad he once > was, and this obsession overrides his usual reason and common sense, > even, to a degree, his own self-preservation. He is, in his own way, > almost as mad as Drusilla. This was not normal for him. Arguable. > > Which is an important distinction because Spike, at the time, was at > the most just a little frustrated. He was annoyed at the attention > Drusilla had been paying Angelus, upset at his injury, and angry that > he couldn't seem to defeat Buffy, but it was just a temporary thing. > He firmly believed, as became clear in his deal with Buffy, that if he > could just get himself and Drusilla out of Sunnydale, things would > start looking up once more. He didn't have the obsessions eating at > his mind like Angelus did, and was still essentially rational. And the > perfectly normal, rational behavior for a creature with no moral code > whatsoever is self-preservation: he had no reason (like Angelus) to > prove anything by bringing about Hell on earth, and didn't like the > change in his routine it would entail. So it made perfect sense for > him to struggle to save his usual stomping grounds. Nobility or > goodness don't enter into the picture. I'm not sure, but I think sucking the world into the demonic reality would have been bad for humans--eternal torment and all that, but good for demons. It would be seen by most vamps and demons as an upgrade. This is arguable to be sure. The fact that Spike goes against this "upgrade" to maintain the status quo indicates some positive feeling towards humanity. > > Everyone always says that Spike was never as evil as Angelus, but I > think that seriously misreads the situation. They were both evil to > the core. Furthermore, they absolutely loved reminding others of that > fact. Just big vamp talk:"I'm more evil than you" "No, I am"etc, All Spike's temporary alliance with Buffy in "Becoming" proved > was that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, it said nothing about > Spike's goodness or evilness. Perhaps > > > He still retained some of his humanity after he > > became a vamp. Even the judge ruled that he reeked of humanity. > > Very true, but it doesn't say much. Humanity is not a antonym for > "evil" in the Buffyverse. I think it is, as I explained above. Humans can and do commit evil acts in full > possession of their souls, and with malice aforethought. All that > saying Spike reeked of humanity implied is what was later confirmed in > "Becoming": that Spike had an emotional investment in certain aspects > of human society. But, so did the Mayor. Hell, so did Glory. Yes, the nature and depth of his emotional investment is what's important. > > > He was unable to defeat her, and she became his obsession. This obsession > > moved from hatred to grudging respect and admiration. > > No doubt. I think Spike had this pretty early on, if only because he > admired that Buffy's ability to stand up to him, and ability to, well, > not get killed. And I think its a key to his eventual feelings towards > her. But I think this is more of a respect for basic personality > traits like courage, bravery, loyalty, etc., none of which really have > anything inherently connecting them with good or evil. I think there's a moral component to bravery and courage. IMO they imply altruism and are inherently good.

2003-01-28 11:08:36-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love?-Spikes OTHER daydream - (carsten1@webtv.net)


http://www.ariesmultimedia.com/spikesfantasy.jpg (screencap)

2003-01-28 11:08:36-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love?-Spikes OTHER daydream - (carsten1@webtv.net)


http://www.ariesmultimedia.com/spikesfantasy.jpg (screencap)

2003-01-28 11:32:27-05:00 - Re: Why did Angel fall in love? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"NightBaron" <bergeg@parl.gc.ca> wrote in message news:24ab6293.0301271151.41983331@posting.google.com... > "Prodigy" <ProdigyUK1@aol.com> wrote in message news:<3e34d2fb@nexus.comcen.com.au>... > > > > > > I'd like to ask the same question re Angel. Why did he fall in love with > > > Buffy? > > Angel fell in love with Buffy because she was his salvation. When > Angel got a soul and started his 100-year guilt trip, he lost whatever > good he had in his life and dwelled in his misery. He had no desires, > no urge, no driving force. He was a shell. > > When Whistler met up with him and showed him Buffy, he gave Angel > something that he could use. Angel never believed that as a vampire > he could make a difference, never thought that he could get past his > past misdeeds, yet he got that chance through Buffy. And the fact > that she saw past it as well, and actually cared about him finally > gave him a reason to live. > > In Buffy was his newfound life, she represented everything that was > good about him. Every good deed he did he lay at her feet. In the > end, Buffy was his everything. Until he found that they could never > be together again, and (with her help) was able to see that he could > do good by himself. I give that essay an A+. -- Shannon If loving Buffy is wrong, I don't want to be right.

2003-01-28 11:32:27-05:00 - Re: Why did Angel fall in love? - (DarkMagic <slnospambilan@comcast.net>)


"NightBaron" <bergeg@parl.gc.ca> wrote in message news:24ab6293.0301271151.41983331@posting.google.com... > "Prodigy" <ProdigyUK1@aol.com> wrote in message news:<3e34d2fb@nexus.comcen.com.au>... > > > > > > I'd like to ask the same question re Angel. Why did he fall in love with > > > Buffy? > > Angel fell in love with Buffy because she was his salvation. When > Angel got a soul and started his 100-year guilt trip, he lost whatever > good he had in his life and dwelled in his misery. He had no desires, > no urge, no driving force. He was a shell. > > When Whistler met up with him and showed him Buffy, he gave Angel > something that he could use. Angel never believed that as a vampire > he could make a difference, never thought that he could get past his > past misdeeds, yet he got that chance through Buffy. And the fact > that she saw past it as well, and actually cared about him finally > gave him a reason to live. > > In Buffy was his newfound life, she represented everything that was > good about him. Every good deed he did he lay at her feet. In the > end, Buffy was his everything. Until he found that they could never > be together again, and (with her help) was able to see that he could > do good by himself. I give that essay an A+. -- Shannon If loving Buffy is wrong, I don't want to be right.

2003-01-28 13:22:09-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <postmaster-8BAB9F.21393527012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote: > No one is arging that vampires can't feel love. They've stated that > themselves... they just don't do it wisely, as Spike proved very well > himself. "No one" is a dangerous phase to toss out on usenet. :) The one vampire we knew of with a soul, prior to Spike, stated that as a soulless vampire he was incapable of love. Darla: "Oh, you bet your ass it was! There was a time, in the early years, when you would have said I was the definition of bliss! - Buffy wasn't happiness. - She was just new!" Angel: "You know - you are getting awfully bent over this, Darla. I couldn't feel that with you, because I didn't have a soul." Vampires can experience something that they call "love" but Angel seems to think that it's a pale imitation of the real thing. Spike hasn't said anything on the subject since he got his soul back. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-01-28 13:22:09-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <postmaster-8BAB9F.21393527012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote: > No one is arging that vampires can't feel love. They've stated that > themselves... they just don't do it wisely, as Spike proved very well > himself. "No one" is a dangerous phase to toss out on usenet. :) The one vampire we knew of with a soul, prior to Spike, stated that as a soulless vampire he was incapable of love. Darla: "Oh, you bet your ass it was! There was a time, in the early years, when you would have said I was the definition of bliss! - Buffy wasn't happiness. - She was just new!" Angel: "You know - you are getting awfully bent over this, Darla. I couldn't feel that with you, because I didn't have a soul." Vampires can experience something that they call "love" but Angel seems to think that it's a pale imitation of the real thing. Spike hasn't said anything on the subject since he got his soul back. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-01-28 14:13:28+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> Spike fell in love with Buffy for a number of reasons. > > One is relatively straightforward: He had strong feelings of lust > toward her right from the getgo, even when they were mortal enemies. > It was played as subtext from "School Hard" on, and became actual text > in "Fool For Love" -- Spike's obsession with Slayers, right from the > beginning, was an erotic one. For Spike, killing a Slayer and having > sex with one were very nearly interchangeable. (Note the specific use > of the "dance" metaphor in "Fool For Love", where Spike uses the term > to apply to both his murders of the previous two Slayers and his > desires toward Buffy.) > > Second is, as many have pointed out, the obsession that built and > built when he found himself repeatedly stymied by this particular > Slayer. Homicidal lust turned into homicidal obsession. > > And then he got the chip, and suddenly he still had all that obsession > and homicidal lust... except that he couldn't perform homicide > anymore. > > Then throw in a third factor. And this is something that was repeated > more than once (including at least once to Spike's face, at which > point he seemed to accept it as a valid statement.) The idea that as > twisted and demonic as he was, Spike's love of pain is what made him > develop affection for Buffy initially. She was better than anyone he > ever met at inflicting pain on him, and in Spike's mind, that equated > to romantic behavior. > > The thing is, despite all its twisted and demonic origins, Spike was > in fact still human enough to be capable of actual love. It was buried > in a nest of sadism and masochism and psychotic temper and, well, > evil, but eventually actual love formed inside of all of that. > > So you get a progression from homicidal lust to homicidal obsession to > non-homicidal obsession to love of pain to actual love of Buffy. Good analysis.

2003-01-28 14:13:28+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> Spike fell in love with Buffy for a number of reasons. > > One is relatively straightforward: He had strong feelings of lust > toward her right from the getgo, even when they were mortal enemies. > It was played as subtext from "School Hard" on, and became actual text > in "Fool For Love" -- Spike's obsession with Slayers, right from the > beginning, was an erotic one. For Spike, killing a Slayer and having > sex with one were very nearly interchangeable. (Note the specific use > of the "dance" metaphor in "Fool For Love", where Spike uses the term > to apply to both his murders of the previous two Slayers and his > desires toward Buffy.) > > Second is, as many have pointed out, the obsession that built and > built when he found himself repeatedly stymied by this particular > Slayer. Homicidal lust turned into homicidal obsession. > > And then he got the chip, and suddenly he still had all that obsession > and homicidal lust... except that he couldn't perform homicide > anymore. > > Then throw in a third factor. And this is something that was repeated > more than once (including at least once to Spike's face, at which > point he seemed to accept it as a valid statement.) The idea that as > twisted and demonic as he was, Spike's love of pain is what made him > develop affection for Buffy initially. She was better than anyone he > ever met at inflicting pain on him, and in Spike's mind, that equated > to romantic behavior. > > The thing is, despite all its twisted and demonic origins, Spike was > in fact still human enough to be capable of actual love. It was buried > in a nest of sadism and masochism and psychotic temper and, well, > evil, but eventually actual love formed inside of all of that. > > So you get a progression from homicidal lust to homicidal obsession to > non-homicidal obsession to love of pain to actual love of Buffy. Good analysis.

2003-01-28 14:47:18+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Rob Myers <robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net>)


In article <6ekZ9.53837$Oj7.11496110@twister.nyc.rr.com>, nimue <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote: > Rob Myers wrote: > > In article <b1245d$ucqor$1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de>, > > Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net> wrote: > > > >> However, I think that the real trigger was "Something Blue". They > >> were just so right together; all us B/S shippers saw it, and I think > >> something inside Spike saw it too. > > > > Can I be blind too? > > No, Xander, sorry. And it will only get worse for you -- oh, never mind. > You'll find out in Season 6. Thanks goodness Buffy finally opens her own eyes to what a shameful and disgusting thing she was doing. -- rob m at rob myers dot net

2003-01-28 14:47:18+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Rob Myers <robm@robmyers.removethisspamblocker.net>)


In article <6ekZ9.53837$Oj7.11496110@twister.nyc.rr.com>, nimue <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote: > Rob Myers wrote: > > In article <b1245d$ucqor$1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de>, > > Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net> wrote: > > > >> However, I think that the real trigger was "Something Blue". They > >> were just so right together; all us B/S shippers saw it, and I think > >> something inside Spike saw it too. > > > > Can I be blind too? > > No, Xander, sorry. And it will only get worse for you -- oh, never mind. > You'll find out in Season 6. Thanks goodness Buffy finally opens her own eyes to what a shameful and disgusting thing she was doing. -- rob m at rob myers dot net

2003-01-28 15:54:18-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (reldevik@usa.net)


Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:<postmaster-C92A6D.17442727012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > In article <1faed770.0301271345.1ddc6452@posting.google.com>, > reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: > > > Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message > > news:<postmaster-2C0E30.21015026012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > > In article <01793v05e4larja2stu64n1l9c2utgrm2u@4ax.com>, > > > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net > > > > (Ken Arromdee) wrote: > > > > > > > > >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, > > > > >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > > > >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > > > >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > > > >>SOMETHING. > > > > >> > > > > >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > > > >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > > > >>possessive hold it has on him. > > > > > > > > > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a turn > > > > >on, > > > > >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate turn-on > > > > >for > > > > >vampires. > > > > > > > > Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way > > > > to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he > > > > has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. > > > > I guess the start of him having a soul. > > > > > > > > > > Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it worked, > > > he got some. > > > > --Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was > > going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when > > he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to > > make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting > > Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the > > "getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. > > > > He stood up to Glory so he could spit in her eye. He knew she'd kill him > regardless of what he said because that's what he'd do to her if the > situation was turned. He didn't want to give her the satifaction, that > way even death would be a victory. --Even if defiance is part of the reason why Spike threw himself into the anti-Glory effort, that still doesn't mean that the nice things Spike did in season 5 were all about "getting some." I don't know how you can watch the Buffy/Spike conversation in her house in The Gift and still think that. Can it be possible Spike's genuine caring and concern for Buffy in that scene just eludes your perception? "Till the end of the world -- even if that happens to be tonight." "I know you'll never love me." Have you got The Gift on tape? Rewatch it, for heaven's sake. Clairel

2003-01-28 15:54:18-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (reldevik@usa.net)


Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:<postmaster-C92A6D.17442727012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > In article <1faed770.0301271345.1ddc6452@posting.google.com>, > reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: > > > Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message > > news:<postmaster-2C0E30.21015026012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > > In article <01793v05e4larja2stu64n1l9c2utgrm2u@4ax.com>, > > > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net > > > > (Ken Arromdee) wrote: > > > > > > > > >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, > > > > >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know they > > > > >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are both > > > > >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > > > >>SOMETHING. > > > > >> > > > > >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, that > > > > >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose the > > > > >>possessive hold it has on him. > > > > > > > > > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a turn > > > > >on, > > > > >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate turn-on > > > > >for > > > > >vampires. > > > > > > > > Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way > > > > to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he > > > > has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. > > > > I guess the start of him having a soul. > > > > > > > > > > Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it worked, > > > he got some. > > > > --Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was > > going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when > > he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to > > make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting > > Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the > > "getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. > > > > He stood up to Glory so he could spit in her eye. He knew she'd kill him > regardless of what he said because that's what he'd do to her if the > situation was turned. He didn't want to give her the satifaction, that > way even death would be a victory. --Even if defiance is part of the reason why Spike threw himself into the anti-Glory effort, that still doesn't mean that the nice things Spike did in season 5 were all about "getting some." I don't know how you can watch the Buffy/Spike conversation in her house in The Gift and still think that. Can it be possible Spike's genuine caring and concern for Buffy in that scene just eludes your perception? "Till the end of the world -- even if that happens to be tonight." "I know you'll never love me." Have you got The Gift on tape? Rewatch it, for heaven's sake. Clairel

2003-01-28 15:59:44-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (reldevik@usa.net)


david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<cqfb3vgqueoc5336o5ujf2s111qd65tbb2@4ax.com>... > On 27 Jan 2003 13:45:42 -0800, reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: > > > >> > >> Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it worked, > >> he got some. > > > >--Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was > >going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when > >he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to > >make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting > >Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the > >"getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. > > > >Oddly enough, people who actually love and care about other people > >sometimes are nice and kind just for the beloved's benefit, not in > >order to "get some." Maybe not in your life -- but in the world at > >large it's a fairly well known phenomenon. > > > >Clairel > > I agree 100%. Saying he was doing it for 'sex' is pretty black and > white. He did alot of things for Buffy that had nothing to do with > sex. I doubt he would have cried over her - and like Dangerous > Liaisons (in the beginning) she would have been just another conquest. --I agree with the above; thanks for saying it. > But as time went on, he began to see her anew. He fell in love with > the fact that she was strong (remember in 1977 in New York, he killed > a slayer that he said he could have danced with all night). He loves > the strong-willed - and the fact that she is gentle and giving is > something that he is not used to. In fact, it has rubbed off on him - > making him gentle and good-natured. --This I have problems with. I don't think Spike got to see many examples of Buffy being gentle and giving. And in season 2 we saw lots of examples of Spike being gentle and tender towards the frail Drusilla, anyway. A capacity for tenderness and affection is something Spike always had in him. He didn't learn it from Buffy. If he was truly trying to get > some, it would have all been an act. --I think that's the argument being made by the post we're responding to. But that argument is all wrong, of course. Clairel

2003-01-28 15:59:44-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (reldevik@usa.net)


david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<cqfb3vgqueoc5336o5ujf2s111qd65tbb2@4ax.com>... > On 27 Jan 2003 13:45:42 -0800, reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: > > > >> > >> Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it worked, > >> he got some. > > > >--Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was > >going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when > >he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to > >make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting > >Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the > >"getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. > > > >Oddly enough, people who actually love and care about other people > >sometimes are nice and kind just for the beloved's benefit, not in > >order to "get some." Maybe not in your life -- but in the world at > >large it's a fairly well known phenomenon. > > > >Clairel > > I agree 100%. Saying he was doing it for 'sex' is pretty black and > white. He did alot of things for Buffy that had nothing to do with > sex. I doubt he would have cried over her - and like Dangerous > Liaisons (in the beginning) she would have been just another conquest. --I agree with the above; thanks for saying it. > But as time went on, he began to see her anew. He fell in love with > the fact that she was strong (remember in 1977 in New York, he killed > a slayer that he said he could have danced with all night). He loves > the strong-willed - and the fact that she is gentle and giving is > something that he is not used to. In fact, it has rubbed off on him - > making him gentle and good-natured. --This I have problems with. I don't think Spike got to see many examples of Buffy being gentle and giving. And in season 2 we saw lots of examples of Spike being gentle and tender towards the frail Drusilla, anyway. A capacity for tenderness and affection is something Spike always had in him. He didn't learn it from Buffy. If he was truly trying to get > some, it would have all been an act. --I think that's the argument being made by the post we're responding to. But that argument is all wrong, of course. Clairel

2003-01-28 16:50:26+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> I think that after being chipped and hanging with the Scoobs, he did change > > his ways a bit. After Joyce died he took flowers over because she had always > > been good to him. You can argue that it was just to get Buffy, but if you > > take his statement at face value it was just a decent thing to do. > > No, I agree. But I think where we differ is in whether or not this is > an inherently good thing. He liked Joyce, and was sorry she passed > away, but this did not make him a good person any more than his most > likely genuine love for Drusilla made him one. He still considered > himself evil, and the only things preventing him from acting on that > were a combination of the chip and his desire to impress Buffy. > Remember, the Master cried over the loss of Darla, and Mayor Wilkins > was horrified at what happened to Faith, and both were pretty much > unrepentantly evil. In the case of the Master/Darla and Mayor/Faith, they all have something in common: They're evil! Their affection for each other is genuine, however it's a perverse mirror image of what is normal and good. It's based on them having certain things in common: causing pain and suffering amongst humanity (the good) being high on the list. There is a stark dichotomy between good and evil on the show. They don't mix, and they don't care about each other's well-being. For Spike to have breached that schism and felt genuine remorse for Joyce's death indicates that he was not totally evil, and capable of genuine good. > > The problem I had with a lot of redemptionist talk at the time was > that Spike's selfish desire to maintain a social group made him > "good." Or even that emotions like remorse don't neccessarily imply > goodness. Spike may very well have been sad that Joyce was gone, but > its only specific remorse for his own misdeeds that implies any degree > of redemption on his part. I think remorse implies a degree of goodness. He wasn't looking for redemption, he saw himself for what he was: evil, a predator of humans. However he was still capable of sometimes empathizing with humans which is a component of conscience. > > > Also, after being rejected by Buffy he pleaded with her that "a man can > > change". She dismisses him as an evil thing, and he goes off and tries to > > prove it. This occurs after he hit Buffy and felt no pain. When he corners > > his intended victim, he has to talk himself into hurting her, convincing > > himself that he is evil. You can sense how reluctant he was. > > Again, I'm not entirely sure what was at work in that scene, but I > think its deeper than you're giving it credit for. I think Spike's > reaction is more significantly a sign of nervousness and uncertainty, > and, at best, I think his hesitation stems more from a concern over > how it affects his relationship with Buffy and the Scoobies. > > What people tend to forget about that scene is Spike's motivation for > going after a victim in the first place. If he were truly concerned > with issues of good and evil, right and wrong, why attack her to begin > with? I think a lot of things were going through Spike's head at the > time, and I think it did go to show a lot about where Spike's > character had evolved to, but I don't think it said much about whether > or not he still qualified as evil. Spike operates on several contradictory levels. That scene demonstrsted the battle between good and evil going on within him. > > > I think he saw Buffy as noble and wanted to be worthy of her and made an > > effort to genuinely change. > > I think he did, as well, but I don't think he ever really made that > change beyond a surface level. He wore the white hat, but he never > really felt it. It was essentially a conditioned response to what he > believed Buffy would find desirable in a partner. Naturally, this > involved not colluding with world destroying entities, selling out her > friends, or randomly attacking passersby. Buffy saw through this (as, > indeed, did almost everyone other than Spike himself, and, very > briefly, Dawn) and this is why Buffy continually rejected him. Spike's > love didn't make him good, and he was still to dangerous to trust, let > alone reciprocate feelings for. It's arguable, but I don't think you're giving him enough credit. After Glory tortures him nearly to death, this is what he said about why he didn't tell who the key was: Because Buffy - the other, not-so-pleasant Buffy... anything happened to Dawn, it'd destroy her, and I couldn't live with her being in that much pain. I'd let Glory kill me first. Nearly bloody did. That he'd rather die than be the cause of such pain to Buffy, to me, indicates that he has nobility, and his feelings for her were not a sham. > > This is how Spike's feelings for Buffy have been portrayed from the > beginning: he was sincere, but sincerity wasn't the issue. At his > core, he never wanted to be good, he wanted to please Buffy. All told, > he probably would have considered it preferable if Buffy were to just > embrace evil herself. Spike, pre-soul, was never noble, and never > acted out of altruistic intent, which is what I would consider > prerequisites for "goodness." He was a romantic, a fool for love. He > would, and did, move mountains to prove his devotion to Buffy. But > what he never understood, and what I think he only began to grasp > during after the attempted rape, was that proving his devotion wasn't > enough. Buffy *knew* that (and probably figured out sometime late in > S5), but it didn't change her position. Why I'd give him credit for attempting to become good is that after Buffy died, he continued working alongside the Scoobies and looking after Dawn. He continued doing good even though the object of his love and affection was gone.

2003-01-28 16:50:26+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> I think that after being chipped and hanging with the Scoobs, he did change > > his ways a bit. After Joyce died he took flowers over because she had always > > been good to him. You can argue that it was just to get Buffy, but if you > > take his statement at face value it was just a decent thing to do. > > No, I agree. But I think where we differ is in whether or not this is > an inherently good thing. He liked Joyce, and was sorry she passed > away, but this did not make him a good person any more than his most > likely genuine love for Drusilla made him one. He still considered > himself evil, and the only things preventing him from acting on that > were a combination of the chip and his desire to impress Buffy. > Remember, the Master cried over the loss of Darla, and Mayor Wilkins > was horrified at what happened to Faith, and both were pretty much > unrepentantly evil. In the case of the Master/Darla and Mayor/Faith, they all have something in common: They're evil! Their affection for each other is genuine, however it's a perverse mirror image of what is normal and good. It's based on them having certain things in common: causing pain and suffering amongst humanity (the good) being high on the list. There is a stark dichotomy between good and evil on the show. They don't mix, and they don't care about each other's well-being. For Spike to have breached that schism and felt genuine remorse for Joyce's death indicates that he was not totally evil, and capable of genuine good. > > The problem I had with a lot of redemptionist talk at the time was > that Spike's selfish desire to maintain a social group made him > "good." Or even that emotions like remorse don't neccessarily imply > goodness. Spike may very well have been sad that Joyce was gone, but > its only specific remorse for his own misdeeds that implies any degree > of redemption on his part. I think remorse implies a degree of goodness. He wasn't looking for redemption, he saw himself for what he was: evil, a predator of humans. However he was still capable of sometimes empathizing with humans which is a component of conscience. > > > Also, after being rejected by Buffy he pleaded with her that "a man can > > change". She dismisses him as an evil thing, and he goes off and tries to > > prove it. This occurs after he hit Buffy and felt no pain. When he corners > > his intended victim, he has to talk himself into hurting her, convincing > > himself that he is evil. You can sense how reluctant he was. > > Again, I'm not entirely sure what was at work in that scene, but I > think its deeper than you're giving it credit for. I think Spike's > reaction is more significantly a sign of nervousness and uncertainty, > and, at best, I think his hesitation stems more from a concern over > how it affects his relationship with Buffy and the Scoobies. > > What people tend to forget about that scene is Spike's motivation for > going after a victim in the first place. If he were truly concerned > with issues of good and evil, right and wrong, why attack her to begin > with? I think a lot of things were going through Spike's head at the > time, and I think it did go to show a lot about where Spike's > character had evolved to, but I don't think it said much about whether > or not he still qualified as evil. Spike operates on several contradictory levels. That scene demonstrsted the battle between good and evil going on within him. > > > I think he saw Buffy as noble and wanted to be worthy of her and made an > > effort to genuinely change. > > I think he did, as well, but I don't think he ever really made that > change beyond a surface level. He wore the white hat, but he never > really felt it. It was essentially a conditioned response to what he > believed Buffy would find desirable in a partner. Naturally, this > involved not colluding with world destroying entities, selling out her > friends, or randomly attacking passersby. Buffy saw through this (as, > indeed, did almost everyone other than Spike himself, and, very > briefly, Dawn) and this is why Buffy continually rejected him. Spike's > love didn't make him good, and he was still to dangerous to trust, let > alone reciprocate feelings for. It's arguable, but I don't think you're giving him enough credit. After Glory tortures him nearly to death, this is what he said about why he didn't tell who the key was: Because Buffy - the other, not-so-pleasant Buffy... anything happened to Dawn, it'd destroy her, and I couldn't live with her being in that much pain. I'd let Glory kill me first. Nearly bloody did. That he'd rather die than be the cause of such pain to Buffy, to me, indicates that he has nobility, and his feelings for her were not a sham. > > This is how Spike's feelings for Buffy have been portrayed from the > beginning: he was sincere, but sincerity wasn't the issue. At his > core, he never wanted to be good, he wanted to please Buffy. All told, > he probably would have considered it preferable if Buffy were to just > embrace evil herself. Spike, pre-soul, was never noble, and never > acted out of altruistic intent, which is what I would consider > prerequisites for "goodness." He was a romantic, a fool for love. He > would, and did, move mountains to prove his devotion to Buffy. But > what he never understood, and what I think he only began to grasp > during after the attempted rape, was that proving his devotion wasn't > enough. Buffy *knew* that (and probably figured out sometime late in > S5), but it didn't change her position. Why I'd give him credit for attempting to become good is that after Buffy died, he continued working alongside the Scoobies and looking after Dawn. He continued doing good even though the object of his love and affection was gone.

2003-01-28 19:06:00-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <1faed770.0301281554.37ade81a@posting.google.com>, Clairel <reldevik@usa.net> wrote: > Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message > news:<postmaster-C92A6D.17442727012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > In article <1faed770.0301271345.1ddc6452@posting.google.com>, > > reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: > > > > > Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message > > > news:<postmaster-2C0E30.21015026012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > > > In article <01793v05e4larja2stu64n1l9c2utgrm2u@4ax.com>, > > > > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net > > > > > (Ken Arromdee) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, > > > > > >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know > > > > > >>they > > > > > >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are > > > > > >>both > > > > > >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > > > > >>SOMETHING. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, > > > > > >>that > > > > > >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose > > > > > >>the > > > > > >>possessive hold it has on him. > > > > > > > > > > > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a > > > > > >turn > > > > > >on, > > > > > >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate > > > > > >turn-on > > > > > >for > > > > > >vampires. > > > > > > > > > > Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way > > > > > to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he > > > > > has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. > > > > > I guess the start of him having a soul. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it > > > > worked, > > > > he got some. > > > > > > --Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was > > > going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when > > > he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to > > > make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting > > > Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the > > > "getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. > > > > > > > He stood up to Glory so he could spit in her eye. He knew she'd kill him > > regardless of what he said because that's what he'd do to her if the > > situation was turned. He didn't want to give her the satifaction, that > > way even death would be a victory. > > --Even if defiance is part of the reason why Spike threw himself into > the anti-Glory effort, that still doesn't mean that the nice things > Spike did in season 5 were all about "getting some." I don't know how > you can watch the Buffy/Spike conversation in her house in The Gift > and still think that. Can it be possible Spike's genuine caring and > concern for Buffy in that scene just eludes your perception? > > "Till the end of the world -- even if that happens to be tonight." "I > know you'll never love me." > > Have you got The Gift on tape? Rewatch it, for heaven's sake. > > Clairel I think that the monks brainwashed him into becoming Dawn's backup protector. That's also the reason no one has staked him since the beginning of season 5, and everyone trusted him with Dawn. They'd all been brainwashed too. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-01-28 19:06:00-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <1faed770.0301281554.37ade81a@posting.google.com>, Clairel <reldevik@usa.net> wrote: > Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message > news:<postmaster-C92A6D.17442727012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > In article <1faed770.0301271345.1ddc6452@posting.google.com>, > > reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: > > > > > Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message > > > news:<postmaster-2C0E30.21015026012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... > > > > In article <01793v05e4larja2stu64n1l9c2utgrm2u@4ax.com>, > > > > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net > > > > > (Ken Arromdee) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, > > > > > >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know > > > > > >>they > > > > > >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are > > > > > >>both > > > > > >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL > > > > > >>SOMETHING. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, > > > > > >>that > > > > > >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose > > > > > >>the > > > > > >>possessive hold it has on him. > > > > > > > > > > > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a > > > > > >turn > > > > > >on, > > > > > >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate > > > > > >turn-on > > > > > >for > > > > > >vampires. > > > > > > > > > > Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way > > > > > to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he > > > > > has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. > > > > > I guess the start of him having a soul. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it > > > > worked, > > > > he got some. > > > > > > --Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was > > > going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when > > > he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to > > > make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting > > > Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the > > > "getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. > > > > > > > He stood up to Glory so he could spit in her eye. He knew she'd kill him > > regardless of what he said because that's what he'd do to her if the > > situation was turned. He didn't want to give her the satifaction, that > > way even death would be a victory. > > --Even if defiance is part of the reason why Spike threw himself into > the anti-Glory effort, that still doesn't mean that the nice things > Spike did in season 5 were all about "getting some." I don't know how > you can watch the Buffy/Spike conversation in her house in The Gift > and still think that. Can it be possible Spike's genuine caring and > concern for Buffy in that scene just eludes your perception? > > "Till the end of the world -- even if that happens to be tonight." "I > know you'll never love me." > > Have you got The Gift on tape? Rewatch it, for heaven's sake. > > Clairel I think that the monks brainwashed him into becoming Dawn's backup protector. That's also the reason no one has staked him since the beginning of season 5, and everyone trusted him with Dawn. They'd all been brainwashed too. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-01-28 19:22:57+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Spike <spike@bloodyawfulpoetSPAMSTOP.me.uk>)


"Sam" <sam_14042@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:21ced21e.0301271909.57c8a93f@posting.google.com... > Spike fell in love with Buffy for a number of reasons. > > One is relatively straightforward: He had strong feelings of lust > toward her right from the getgo, even when they were mortal enemies. > It was played as subtext from "School Hard" on, and became actual text > in "Fool For Love" -- Spike's obsession with Slayers, right from the > beginning, was an erotic one. For Spike, killing a Slayer and having > sex with one were very nearly interchangeable. (Note the specific use > of the "dance" metaphor in "Fool For Love", where Spike uses the term > to apply to both his murders of the previous two Slayers and his > desires toward Buffy.) > > Second is, as many have pointed out, the obsession that built and > built when he found himself repeatedly stymied by this particular > Slayer. Homicidal lust turned into homicidal obsession. > > And then he got the chip, and suddenly he still had all that obsession > and homicidal lust... except that he couldn't perform homicide > anymore. > > Then throw in a third factor. And this is something that was repeated > more than once (including at least once to Spike's face, at which > point he seemed to accept it as a valid statement.) The idea that as > twisted and demonic as he was, Spike's love of pain is what made him > develop affection for Buffy initially. She was better than anyone he > ever met at inflicting pain on him, and in Spike's mind, that equated > to romantic behavior. > > The thing is, despite all its twisted and demonic origins, Spike was > in fact still human enough to be capable of actual love. It was buried > in a nest of sadism and masochism and psychotic temper and, well, > evil, but eventually actual love formed inside of all of that. > > So you get a progression from homicidal lust to homicidal obsession to > non-homicidal obsession to love of pain to actual love of Buffy. But apart from the "biographical" reasons there is also a basic personal compatibility between the two that Spike picks up on earlier than Buffy. They are both essentially pragmatists and individualists, despite having a "mythic" side to their natures (slayer/vampire) they refuse to renounce their human normality and become subsumed into the stereotype. The younger Buffy wd have liked nothing better than becoming a cheerleader, the older one often wishes she had a "normal" life, Spike watches TV, likes chicken wings, the Sex Pistols and Man U. They are distrustful of authority figures preferring to rely on their own hunches or gut feelings being more instinctual than intellectual. They are both hyperactive, impulsive and distractable, in fact they both very much have the feel of being adult ADDERS (attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder personalities). They share a zany, off-beat sense of humour. Finally, they have strong and impulsive sex drives, that Spike tends towards the M while Buffy is more towards the S only enhances their compatibility. Spike

2003-01-28 19:22:57+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Spike <spike@bloodyawfulpoetSPAMSTOP.me.uk>)


"Sam" <sam_14042@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:21ced21e.0301271909.57c8a93f@posting.google.com... > Spike fell in love with Buffy for a number of reasons. > > One is relatively straightforward: He had strong feelings of lust > toward her right from the getgo, even when they were mortal enemies. > It was played as subtext from "School Hard" on, and became actual text > in "Fool For Love" -- Spike's obsession with Slayers, right from the > beginning, was an erotic one. For Spike, killing a Slayer and having > sex with one were very nearly interchangeable. (Note the specific use > of the "dance" metaphor in "Fool For Love", where Spike uses the term > to apply to both his murders of the previous two Slayers and his > desires toward Buffy.) > > Second is, as many have pointed out, the obsession that built and > built when he found himself repeatedly stymied by this particular > Slayer. Homicidal lust turned into homicidal obsession. > > And then he got the chip, and suddenly he still had all that obsession > and homicidal lust... except that he couldn't perform homicide > anymore. > > Then throw in a third factor. And this is something that was repeated > more than once (including at least once to Spike's face, at which > point he seemed to accept it as a valid statement.) The idea that as > twisted and demonic as he was, Spike's love of pain is what made him > develop affection for Buffy initially. She was better than anyone he > ever met at inflicting pain on him, and in Spike's mind, that equated > to romantic behavior. > > The thing is, despite all its twisted and demonic origins, Spike was > in fact still human enough to be capable of actual love. It was buried > in a nest of sadism and masochism and psychotic temper and, well, > evil, but eventually actual love formed inside of all of that. > > So you get a progression from homicidal lust to homicidal obsession to > non-homicidal obsession to love of pain to actual love of Buffy. But apart from the "biographical" reasons there is also a basic personal compatibility between the two that Spike picks up on earlier than Buffy. They are both essentially pragmatists and individualists, despite having a "mythic" side to their natures (slayer/vampire) they refuse to renounce their human normality and become subsumed into the stereotype. The younger Buffy wd have liked nothing better than becoming a cheerleader, the older one often wishes she had a "normal" life, Spike watches TV, likes chicken wings, the Sex Pistols and Man U. They are distrustful of authority figures preferring to rely on their own hunches or gut feelings being more instinctual than intellectual. They are both hyperactive, impulsive and distractable, in fact they both very much have the feel of being adult ADDERS (attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder personalities). They share a zany, off-beat sense of humour. Finally, they have strong and impulsive sex drives, that Spike tends towards the M while Buffy is more towards the S only enhances their compatibility. Spike

2003-01-28 20:07:05-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>: >In article <1faed770.0301281554.37ade81a@posting.google.com>, Clairel ><reldevik@usa.net> wrote: > >> Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message >> news:<postmaster-C92A6D.17442727012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... >> > In article <1faed770.0301271345.1ddc6452@posting.google.com>, >> > reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: >> > >> > > Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message >> > > news:<postmaster-2C0E30.21015026012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... >> > > > In article <01793v05e4larja2stu64n1l9c2utgrm2u@4ax.com>, >> > > > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net >> > > > > (Ken Arromdee) wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, >> > > > > >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > > > > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know >> > > > > >>they >> > > > > >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are >> > > > > >>both >> > > > > >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >> > > > > >>SOMETHING. >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, >> > > > > >>that >> > > > > >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose >> > > > > >>the >> > > > > >>possessive hold it has on him. >> > > > > > >> > > > > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a >> > > > > >turn >> > > > > >on, >> > > > > >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate >> > > > > >turn-on >> > > > > >for >> > > > > >vampires. >> > > > > >> > > > > Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way >> > > > > to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he >> > > > > has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. >> > > > > I guess the start of him having a soul. >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it >> > > > worked, >> > > > he got some. >> > > >> > > --Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was >> > > going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when >> > > he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to >> > > make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting >> > > Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the >> > > "getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. >> > > >> > >> > He stood up to Glory so he could spit in her eye. He knew she'd kill him >> > regardless of what he said because that's what he'd do to her if the >> > situation was turned. He didn't want to give her the satifaction, that >> > way even death would be a victory. >> >> --Even if defiance is part of the reason why Spike threw himself into >> the anti-Glory effort, that still doesn't mean that the nice things >> Spike did in season 5 were all about "getting some." I don't know how >> you can watch the Buffy/Spike conversation in her house in The Gift >> and still think that. Can it be possible Spike's genuine caring and >> concern for Buffy in that scene just eludes your perception? >> >> "Till the end of the world -- even if that happens to be tonight." "I >> know you'll never love me." >> >> Have you got The Gift on tape? Rewatch it, for heaven's sake. >> >> Clairel > >I think that the monks brainwashed him into becoming Dawn's backup >protector. That's also the reason no one has staked him since the >beginning of season 5, and everyone trusted him with Dawn. They'd all >been brainwashed too. So they're all basically dupes from Season 5 forward? I mean, it's consistent, and it meets the facts as we know them, but sort of lowers the Hero Factor somewhat. Which makes it all kind of less satisfying unless they WAKE UP before the series ends :) -- First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin.

2003-01-28 20:07:05-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Ebie <sybil5000@yahoo.com>)


Thus spake Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>: >In article <1faed770.0301281554.37ade81a@posting.google.com>, Clairel ><reldevik@usa.net> wrote: > >> Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message >> news:<postmaster-C92A6D.17442727012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... >> > In article <1faed770.0301271345.1ddc6452@posting.google.com>, >> > reldevik@usa.net (Clairel) wrote: >> > >> > > Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net> wrote in message >> > > news:<postmaster-2C0E30.21015026012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>... >> > > > In article <01793v05e4larja2stu64n1l9c2utgrm2u@4ax.com>, >> > > > david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:18 +0000 (UTC), arromdee@mauve-new.rahul.net >> > > > > (Ken Arromdee) wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > >In article <r6q83v8sfor66i8t2bef638htirqtbb4a3@4ax.com>, >> > > > > >david <johnsonholding@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > > > > >>So why does everyone think Spike fell in love with Buffy? I know >> > > > > >>they >> > > > > >>say that there is no difference between love and hate - they are >> > > > > >>both >> > > > > >>strong emotions and feeling either for someone means you FEEL >> > > > > >>SOMETHING. >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >>I think it was because he realised after living among the living, >> > > > > >>that >> > > > > >>there are good people in the world. The demon has started to lose >> > > > > >>the >> > > > > >>possessive hold it has on him. >> > > > > > >> > > > > >No, he fell in love with Buffy because for a demon, violence is a >> > > > > >turn >> > > > > >on, >> > > > > >and the Slayer, who constantly kills vampires, is the ultimate >> > > > > >turn-on >> > > > > >for >> > > > > >vampires. >> > > > > >> > > > > Well being turned on by her would not cause him to go out of his way >> > > > > to do things for her - kind things. Instead, he would stalk (which he >> > > > > has), but even that turned to a kinder and more gentle type of love. >> > > > > I guess the start of him having a soul. >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > Oh please... he started acting nice so he could get some. And it >> > > > worked, >> > > > he got some. >> > > >> > > --Life must be so simple for you. I suppose when Spike thought he was >> > > going to die opposing Glory in Intervention (and in The Gift too, when >> > > he told Buffy he knew she would never love him but he was willing to >> > > make a last stand against Glory anyway for the sake of protecting >> > > Dawn), that was all about "getting some"? Please explain when the >> > > "getting some" was supposed to happen before Spike's demise. >> > > >> > >> > He stood up to Glory so he could spit in her eye. He knew she'd kill him >> > regardless of what he said because that's what he'd do to her if the >> > situation was turned. He didn't want to give her the satifaction, that >> > way even death would be a victory. >> >> --Even if defiance is part of the reason why Spike threw himself into >> the anti-Glory effort, that still doesn't mean that the nice things >> Spike did in season 5 were all about "getting some." I don't know how >> you can watch the Buffy/Spike conversation in her house in The Gift >> and still think that. Can it be possible Spike's genuine caring and >> concern for Buffy in that scene just eludes your perception? >> >> "Till the end of the world -- even if that happens to be tonight." "I >> know you'll never love me." >> >> Have you got The Gift on tape? Rewatch it, for heaven's sake. >> >> Clairel > >I think that the monks brainwashed him into becoming Dawn's backup >protector. That's also the reason no one has staked him since the >beginning of season 5, and everyone trusted him with Dawn. They'd all >been brainwashed too. So they're all basically dupes from Season 5 forward? I mean, it's consistent, and it meets the facts as we know them, but sort of lowers the Hero Factor somewhat. Which makes it all kind of less satisfying unless they WAKE UP before the series ends :) -- First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin.

2003-01-28 20:44:11-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


"napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote in message news:<mxyZ9.330$Wu1.51791@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > In the case of the Master/Darla and Mayor/Faith, they all have something in > common: They're evil! Their affection for each other is genuine, however > it's a perverse mirror image of what is normal and good. It's based on them > having certain things in common: causing pain and suffering amongst > humanity (the good) being high on the list. I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps with the Master and Darla (any glimpse of that relationship's dynamic was neccessarily short), but the Mayor had genuine fatherly affection for Faith that went beyond just the neccessities of being sadistically evil. If that were all it were, then its hard to explain his little "provisions" for Faith in season four. Saying its based on something they had in common is irrelevant: Spike felt affection for Joyce because they had certain things in common as well. That the specific character traits Spike shared with Joyce tended to have less to do with summoning a big smelly demon to wreck general havoc is kind of besides the point, really. Spike may well an extremely unusual case among the vampires and the demons we've seen on the show, but I think most of these differences are neither entirely unique, or, in and of themselves, particularly noteworthy. He wears his heart on his sleeve and always has done, sure, but that says absolutely nothing about whether or not he's evil or not, or can feel genuine sorrow. Even the most evil creatures on the show can show some sorrow arising out of a sense of self-interest. > There is a stark dichotomy between good and evil on the show. I disagree here, as well. We're *told* there's a stark dichotomy, but there never really has been a specific explanation of the division. Metaphysically, sure, there may be a greater entity who rewards good and punishes evil (or vice versa), but, in practice, on the ground level, good people do evil things, and evil people do good things. Really, it's been that way since the first season. The last season, in particular, illustrated this at great length, as did, to a lesser extent, season three. Indeed, the individuals and group who generally adhere to this constant, unchanging definition have been universally portrayed as ineffectual, dangerous, or both (see: Council of Watchers, The and Initiative, The). > They don't mix, and they don't care about each other's well-being. Again, this just isn't true. The Mayor cared for Faith. Spike cared for Drusilla back when everyone considered him evil without much comment. Then, if you'll permit me to switch series temporarily, there was the vampire couple from the third season premiere of ANGEL. The greatest practical change the absence of a soul seems to indicate is no independent ethical code. Vampires and other soulless beings act out of pure selfishness, interested primarily in doing what serves their interests best. So, yeah, they don't mix well, but they can, on occassion, care about others if they feel some sort of emotional attachment to that individual. Love isn't noble, and love isn't altruistic. It's selfishness at its most extreme level, when you get right down to it. Spike, in his way (and in a strictly platonic sense) loved Joyce. But this was, at best, of only cursory interest in any study of Spike's status as evil. > For Spike to have > breached that schism and felt genuine remorse for Joyce's death indicates > that he was not totally evil, and capable of genuine good. "Capable of good" is different from *being* good. Spike performed acts of genuine good throughout his time with the Scooby Gang. What matters, ultimately, is his motivation. He had two main reasons for performing good deeds: to prevent himself from being staked, and to impress Buffy. Buffy recognized he was "capable of good" in late season five, at the end of the whole Buffybot ordeal. But he still wasn't a good person, he was a selfishly-motivated person who just happened, at that moment, to be working towards a goal that meshed with the Scooby Gang's genuine "goodness." > I think remorse implies a degree of goodness. He wasn't looking for > redemption, he saw himself for what he was: evil, a predator of humans. > However he was still capable of sometimes empathizing with humans which is a > component of conscience. True, but somewhat irrelevant. It was only a small component of conscience, it meant nothing on its own. For Spike's redemption, remorse only meant something when it was actual, internal remorse for his own actions. And he never showed this, without a soul. The closest he ever got was right before he went on his soul quest, and, even though, it was likely just as much a reaction to Buffy's disgust than honest recognition of wrongdoing on his part. > Spike operates on several contradictory levels. That scene demonstrsted the > battle between good and evil going on within him. Eh. I don't think Spike ever had a true battle between good and evil going on within him until after his soul was restored. His "contradictions" make perfect sense for a self-oriented being, even if they're unusual actions for a vampire (but then, Spike was in an unusual situation to begin with). > That he'd rather die than be the cause of such pain to Buffy, to me, > indicates that he has nobility, and his feelings for her were not a sham. I've never argued that they were. But listen again to Spike's reasoning, because it all came back to him. *He* couldn't live to see Buffy in such pain, etc. He cared for Buffy, and worked to please Buffy. What pleased Buffy was goodness (so to speak). So he tried to be good. But his only motivation to ever do good was to please her and those around her. Everything he did was driven towards that goal. Which, don't get me wrong, doesn't make him a villain. Better for him to do good for selfish reasons than to do bad for whatever reasons. But it doesn't make him inherently good, nor does it represent a significant change from the Spike we saw in early S2. > Why I'd give him credit for attempting to become good is that after Buffy > died, he continued working alongside the Scoobies and looking after Dawn. He > continued doing good even though the object of his love and affection was > gone. I don't buy it, really, although I see the argument. But there are other factors to consider: Spike was still reliant on the Scooby Gang for some degree of protection, and though the object of his greatest emotional attachment was gone, he did have other people in that social group whom he considered relatively important as friends (Joyce, Dawn, etc.). When you think about it, what, on a practical level, had changed for Spike from before? He had reason to stick around the Scoobies before he realized his feelings for Buffy, and those reasons remained following this realization, as well.

2003-01-28 20:44:11-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu)


"napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote in message news:<mxyZ9.330$Wu1.51791@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > In the case of the Master/Darla and Mayor/Faith, they all have something in > common: They're evil! Their affection for each other is genuine, however > it's a perverse mirror image of what is normal and good. It's based on them > having certain things in common: causing pain and suffering amongst > humanity (the good) being high on the list. I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps with the Master and Darla (any glimpse of that relationship's dynamic was neccessarily short), but the Mayor had genuine fatherly affection for Faith that went beyond just the neccessities of being sadistically evil. If that were all it were, then its hard to explain his little "provisions" for Faith in season four. Saying its based on something they had in common is irrelevant: Spike felt affection for Joyce because they had certain things in common as well. That the specific character traits Spike shared with Joyce tended to have less to do with summoning a big smelly demon to wreck general havoc is kind of besides the point, really. Spike may well an extremely unusual case among the vampires and the demons we've seen on the show, but I think most of these differences are neither entirely unique, or, in and of themselves, particularly noteworthy. He wears his heart on his sleeve and always has done, sure, but that says absolutely nothing about whether or not he's evil or not, or can feel genuine sorrow. Even the most evil creatures on the show can show some sorrow arising out of a sense of self-interest. > There is a stark dichotomy between good and evil on the show. I disagree here, as well. We're *told* there's a stark dichotomy, but there never really has been a specific explanation of the division. Metaphysically, sure, there may be a greater entity who rewards good and punishes evil (or vice versa), but, in practice, on the ground level, good people do evil things, and evil people do good things. Really, it's been that way since the first season. The last season, in particular, illustrated this at great length, as did, to a lesser extent, season three. Indeed, the individuals and group who generally adhere to this constant, unchanging definition have been universally portrayed as ineffectual, dangerous, or both (see: Council of Watchers, The and Initiative, The). > They don't mix, and they don't care about each other's well-being. Again, this just isn't true. The Mayor cared for Faith. Spike cared for Drusilla back when everyone considered him evil without much comment. Then, if you'll permit me to switch series temporarily, there was the vampire couple from the third season premiere of ANGEL. The greatest practical change the absence of a soul seems to indicate is no independent ethical code. Vampires and other soulless beings act out of pure selfishness, interested primarily in doing what serves their interests best. So, yeah, they don't mix well, but they can, on occassion, care about others if they feel some sort of emotional attachment to that individual. Love isn't noble, and love isn't altruistic. It's selfishness at its most extreme level, when you get right down to it. Spike, in his way (and in a strictly platonic sense) loved Joyce. But this was, at best, of only cursory interest in any study of Spike's status as evil. > For Spike to have > breached that schism and felt genuine remorse for Joyce's death indicates > that he was not totally evil, and capable of genuine good. "Capable of good" is different from *being* good. Spike performed acts of genuine good throughout his time with the Scooby Gang. What matters, ultimately, is his motivation. He had two main reasons for performing good deeds: to prevent himself from being staked, and to impress Buffy. Buffy recognized he was "capable of good" in late season five, at the end of the whole Buffybot ordeal. But he still wasn't a good person, he was a selfishly-motivated person who just happened, at that moment, to be working towards a goal that meshed with the Scooby Gang's genuine "goodness." > I think remorse implies a degree of goodness. He wasn't looking for > redemption, he saw himself for what he was: evil, a predator of humans. > However he was still capable of sometimes empathizing with humans which is a > component of conscience. True, but somewhat irrelevant. It was only a small component of conscience, it meant nothing on its own. For Spike's redemption, remorse only meant something when it was actual, internal remorse for his own actions. And he never showed this, without a soul. The closest he ever got was right before he went on his soul quest, and, even though, it was likely just as much a reaction to Buffy's disgust than honest recognition of wrongdoing on his part. > Spike operates on several contradictory levels. That scene demonstrsted the > battle between good and evil going on within him. Eh. I don't think Spike ever had a true battle between good and evil going on within him until after his soul was restored. His "contradictions" make perfect sense for a self-oriented being, even if they're unusual actions for a vampire (but then, Spike was in an unusual situation to begin with). > That he'd rather die than be the cause of such pain to Buffy, to me, > indicates that he has nobility, and his feelings for her were not a sham. I've never argued that they were. But listen again to Spike's reasoning, because it all came back to him. *He* couldn't live to see Buffy in such pain, etc. He cared for Buffy, and worked to please Buffy. What pleased Buffy was goodness (so to speak). So he tried to be good. But his only motivation to ever do good was to please her and those around her. Everything he did was driven towards that goal. Which, don't get me wrong, doesn't make him a villain. Better for him to do good for selfish reasons than to do bad for whatever reasons. But it doesn't make him inherently good, nor does it represent a significant change from the Spike we saw in early S2. > Why I'd give him credit for attempting to become good is that after Buffy > died, he continued working alongside the Scoobies and looking after Dawn. He > continued doing good even though the object of his love and affection was > gone. I don't buy it, really, although I see the argument. But there are other factors to consider: Spike was still reliant on the Scooby Gang for some degree of protection, and though the object of his greatest emotional attachment was gone, he did have other people in that social group whom he considered relatively important as friends (Joyce, Dawn, etc.). When you think about it, what, on a practical level, had changed for Spike from before? He had reason to stick around the Scoobies before he realized his feelings for Buffy, and those reasons remained following this realization, as well.

2003-01-28 23:04:02+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (nimue <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com>)


Rob Myers wrote: > In article <6ekZ9.53837$Oj7.11496110@twister.nyc.rr.com>, nimue > <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Rob Myers wrote: >>> In article <b1245d$ucqor$1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de>, >>> Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net> wrote: >>> >>>> However, I think that the real trigger was "Something Blue". They >>>> were just so right together; all us B/S shippers saw it, and I >>>> think something inside Spike saw it too. >>> >>> Can I be blind too? >> >> No, Xander, sorry. And it will only get worse for you -- oh, never >> mind. You'll find out in Season 6. > > Thanks goodness Buffy finally opens her own eyes to what a shameful > and disgusting thing she was doing. When she broke up with Spike? Well -- it seems as if she *is* starting to realize it. -- nimue "The schools are not as good as they used to be, and never were." - Will Rogers -

2003-01-28 23:04:02+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (nimue <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com>)


Rob Myers wrote: > In article <6ekZ9.53837$Oj7.11496110@twister.nyc.rr.com>, nimue > <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Rob Myers wrote: >>> In article <b1245d$ucqor$1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de>, >>> Speaker-to-Customers <greebo@manx.net> wrote: >>> >>>> However, I think that the real trigger was "Something Blue". They >>>> were just so right together; all us B/S shippers saw it, and I >>>> think something inside Spike saw it too. >>> >>> Can I be blind too? >> >> No, Xander, sorry. And it will only get worse for you -- oh, never >> mind. You'll find out in Season 6. > > Thanks goodness Buffy finally opens her own eyes to what a shameful > and disgusting thing she was doing. When she broke up with Spike? Well -- it seems as if she *is* starting to realize it. -- nimue "The schools are not as good as they used to be, and never were." - Will Rogers -

2003-01-29 14:05:37+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"Don Sample" <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:280120031906000287%dsample@synapse.net... > I think that the monks brainwashed him into becoming Dawn's backup > protector. That's also the reason no one has staked him since the > beginning of season 5, and everyone trusted him with Dawn. They'd all > been brainwashed too. > I always thought along those lines too. Even though it would hurt Spike's redemption story, it would explain why soulless Spike violated ME's canon when he fell in love with Buffy. My idea was that the Monks took a part of Buffy's soul and gave it to Dawn to create her. But realizing they needed a backup in case Buffy was taken out in protecting Dawn, they did a magic spell(ala Willow in Something Blue) that made Spike love Buffy and the part of Buffy in Dawn made Spike want to protect Dawn. It would also explain why Buffy was so dead set on protecting Dawn when she learned Dawn wasn't real(because Dawn was actually a part of Buffy even though Buffy herself didn't realize it). It's really the only way you can have all the events shown in season 5 without violating the show's canon in a serious way.

2003-01-29 14:05:37+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Chris Zabel <alephnull@earthlink.net>)


"Don Sample" <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:280120031906000287%dsample@synapse.net... > I think that the monks brainwashed him into becoming Dawn's backup > protector. That's also the reason no one has staked him since the > beginning of season 5, and everyone trusted him with Dawn. They'd all > been brainwashed too. > I always thought along those lines too. Even though it would hurt Spike's redemption story, it would explain why soulless Spike violated ME's canon when he fell in love with Buffy. My idea was that the Monks took a part of Buffy's soul and gave it to Dawn to create her. But realizing they needed a backup in case Buffy was taken out in protecting Dawn, they did a magic spell(ala Willow in Something Blue) that made Spike love Buffy and the part of Buffy in Dawn made Spike want to protect Dawn. It would also explain why Buffy was so dead set on protecting Dawn when she learned Dawn wasn't real(because Dawn was actually a part of Buffy even though Buffy herself didn't realize it). It's really the only way you can have all the events shown in season 5 without violating the show's canon in a serious way.

2003-01-29 18:20:45+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (pence234@aol.comwhomp)


Sigh. What is love? Why does anybody fall in love? 1. Biological---Buffy has a great body, great intelligence...should appeal to all humanoid males as good breeding material. 2. Sociological--She's not boring. 3. Psychological....men really want what they can't/shouldn't have...it challenges the warrior in them. So...not so surprising after all. PennyB Been in love 4 times... married 32 years to the same man!

2003-01-29 18:20:45+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (pence234@aol.comwhomp)


Sigh. What is love? Why does anybody fall in love? 1. Biological---Buffy has a great body, great intelligence...should appeal to all humanoid males as good breeding material. 2. Sociological--She's not boring. 3. Psychological....men really want what they can't/shouldn't have...it challenges the warrior in them. So...not so surprising after all. PennyB Been in love 4 times... married 32 years to the same man!

2003-01-30 08:03:51+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> > In the case of the Master/Darla and Mayor/Faith, they all have something in > > common: They're evil! Their affection for each other is genuine, however > > it's a perverse mirror image of what is normal and good. It's based on them > > having certain things in common: causing pain and suffering amongst > > humanity (the good) being high on the list. > > I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps with the Master and Darla (any glimpse > of that relationship's dynamic was neccessarily short), but the Mayor > had genuine fatherly affection for Faith that went beyond just the > neccessities of being sadistically evil. If that were all it were, > then its hard to explain his little "provisions" for Faith in season > four. I think the Mayor was just using Faith, preying on her insecurities. Any affection he felt for her is of the perverse mirror image type I wrote of above. He sent her out to knife an old defenceless Prof. for gods sake! What kind of father figure would do that? As for the provisions he left for her in season 4, he could have left money, false papers, stuff for her to get away and start a new life. Instead he tells her it's all over for her, and that she should go out with a bang, and leaves a device with which she could wreak more havoc. I think this was just his way of perpetuating evil from beyond the grave. > > Saying its based on something they had in common is irrelevant: Spike > felt affection for Joyce because they had certain things in common as > well. That the specific character traits Spike shared with Joyce > tended to have less to do with summoning a big smelly demon to wreck > general havoc is kind of besides the point, really. I don't Spike had anything in common with Joyce. > > Spike may well an extremely unusual case among the vampires and the > demons we've seen on the show, but I think most of these differences > are neither entirely unique, or, in and of themselves, particularly > noteworthy. He wears his heart on his sleeve and always has done, > sure, but that says absolutely nothing about whether or not he's evil > or not, or can feel genuine sorrow. Even the most evil creatures on > the show can show some sorrow arising out of a sense of self-interest > > > There is a stark dichotomy between good and evil on the show. > > I disagree here, as well. We're *told* there's a stark dichotomy, but > there never really has been a specific explanation of the division. > Metaphysically, sure, there may be a greater entity who rewards good > and punishes evil (or vice versa), but, in practice, on the ground > level, good people do evil things, and evil people do good things. > Really, it's been that way since the first season. The last season, in > particular, illustrated this at great length, as did, to a lesser > extent, season three. Indeed, the individuals and group who generally > adhere to this constant, unchanging definition have been universally > portrayed as ineffectual, dangerous, or both (see: Council of > Watchers, The and Initiative, The). > > > They don't mix, and they don't care about each other's well-being. > > Again, this just isn't true. The Mayor cared for Faith. Spike cared > for Drusilla back when everyone considered him evil without much > comment. Then, if you'll permit me to switch series temporarily, there > was the vampire couple from the third season premiere of ANGEL. > > The greatest practical change the absence of a soul seems to indicate > is no independent ethical code. Vampires and other soulless beings act > out of pure selfishness, interested primarily in doing what serves > their interests best. The way I understand the Buffyverse paradigm, is that humans have souls and are inherently good, and vampires lack souls and are inherently evil. Evil in the Buffyverse preys on good and tries to destroy it. It's a compulsion; it's not optional. Because of this, good and evil simply can't get along, it's always going to be a fight to the death. That's why a dichotomy exists. Now, humans can act in an evil manner. They have a free will in this sense that vampires don't. Vampires don't have the free will to do good, unless they become ensouled. > > > For Spike to have > > breached that schism and felt genuine remorse for Joyce's death indicates > > that he was not totally evil, and capable of genuine good. > > "Capable of good" is different from *being* good. Spike performed acts > of genuine good throughout his time with the Scooby Gang. What > matters, ultimately, is his motivation. He had two main reasons for > performing good deeds: to prevent himself from being staked, and to > impress Buffy. Buffy recognized he was "capable of good" in late > season five, at the end of the whole Buffybot ordeal. But he still > wasn't a good person, he was a selfishly-motivated person who just > happened, at that moment, to be working towards a goal that meshed > with the Scooby Gang's genuine "goodness." I'd never argue that Spike was a good person, only that he wasn't totally evil as other vampires are. The humanity he retained after being vamped allowed him to empathize with the good, and bridge that good/evil chasm. Given that vamps are inherently evil, that's quite an accomplishment. > > > I think remorse implies a degree of goodness. He wasn't looking for > > redemption, he saw himself for what he was: evil, a predator of humans. > > However he was still capable of sometimes empathizing with humans which is a > > component of conscience. > > True, but somewhat irrelevant. It was only a small component of > conscience, it meant nothing on its own. For Spike's redemption, > remorse only meant something when it was actual, internal remorse for > his own actions. And he never showed this, without a soul. The closest > he ever got was right before he went on his soul quest, and, even > though, it was likely just as much a reaction to Buffy's disgust than > honest recognition of wrongdoing on his part. > > > Spike operates on several contradictory levels. That scene demonstrsted the > > battle between good and evil going on within him. > > Eh. I don't think Spike ever had a true battle between good and evil > going on within him until after his soul was restored. His > "contradictions" make perfect sense for a self-oriented being, even if > they're unusual actions for a vampire (but then, Spike was in an > unusual situation to begin with). I disagree, he put his existence in jeopardy on a number of occasions. Self-interest would cause him to save himself, yet he was willing to sacrifice his life. > > > That he'd rather die than be the cause of such pain to Buffy, to me, > > indicates that he has nobility, and his feelings for her were not a sham. > > I've never argued that they were. But listen again to Spike's > reasoning, because it all came back to him. *He* couldn't live to see > Buffy in such pain, etc. He cared for Buffy, and worked to please > Buffy. What pleased Buffy was goodness (so to speak). So he tried to > be good. But his only motivation to ever do good was to please her and > those around her. Everything he did was driven towards that goal. > > Which, don't get me wrong, doesn't make him a villain. Better for him > to do good for selfish reasons than to do bad for whatever reasons. > But it doesn't make him inherently good, nor does it represent a > significant change from the Spike we saw in early S2. No, he's inherently evil, which makes any altruistic act all the more impressive. Willing to die rather than having Buffy in pain goes beyond any false feelings or selfish reasons. Seems to me to be genuine love. I think it's a significant change from early Spike. > > > Why I'd give him credit for attempting to become good is that after Buffy > > died, he continued working alongside the Scoobies and looking after Dawn. He > > continued doing good even though the object of his love and affection was > > gone. > > I don't buy it, really, although I see the argument. But there are > other factors to consider: Spike was still reliant on the Scooby Gang > for some degree of protection, and though the object of his greatest > emotional attachment was gone, he did have other people in that social > group whom he considered relatively important as friends (Joyce, Dawn, > etc.). When you think about it, what, on a practical level, had > changed for Spike from before? He had reason to stick around the > Scoobies before he realized his feelings for Buffy, and those reasons > remained following this realization, as well. He could have skipped town. He didn't need the Scoobies for protection, the Initiative was no longer around. He didn't care for Xander or Giles or even Willow. Only perhaps Dawn. That he stuck around to help them indicates that he had changed.

2003-01-30 08:03:51+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> > In the case of the Master/Darla and Mayor/Faith, they all have something in > > common: They're evil! Their affection for each other is genuine, however > > it's a perverse mirror image of what is normal and good. It's based on them > > having certain things in common: causing pain and suffering amongst > > humanity (the good) being high on the list. > > I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps with the Master and Darla (any glimpse > of that relationship's dynamic was neccessarily short), but the Mayor > had genuine fatherly affection for Faith that went beyond just the > neccessities of being sadistically evil. If that were all it were, > then its hard to explain his little "provisions" for Faith in season > four. I think the Mayor was just using Faith, preying on her insecurities. Any affection he felt for her is of the perverse mirror image type I wrote of above. He sent her out to knife an old defenceless Prof. for gods sake! What kind of father figure would do that? As for the provisions he left for her in season 4, he could have left money, false papers, stuff for her to get away and start a new life. Instead he tells her it's all over for her, and that she should go out with a bang, and leaves a device with which she could wreak more havoc. I think this was just his way of perpetuating evil from beyond the grave. > > Saying its based on something they had in common is irrelevant: Spike > felt affection for Joyce because they had certain things in common as > well. That the specific character traits Spike shared with Joyce > tended to have less to do with summoning a big smelly demon to wreck > general havoc is kind of besides the point, really. I don't Spike had anything in common with Joyce. > > Spike may well an extremely unusual case among the vampires and the > demons we've seen on the show, but I think most of these differences > are neither entirely unique, or, in and of themselves, particularly > noteworthy. He wears his heart on his sleeve and always has done, > sure, but that says absolutely nothing about whether or not he's evil > or not, or can feel genuine sorrow. Even the most evil creatures on > the show can show some sorrow arising out of a sense of self-interest > > > There is a stark dichotomy between good and evil on the show. > > I disagree here, as well. We're *told* there's a stark dichotomy, but > there never really has been a specific explanation of the division. > Metaphysically, sure, there may be a greater entity who rewards good > and punishes evil (or vice versa), but, in practice, on the ground > level, good people do evil things, and evil people do good things. > Really, it's been that way since the first season. The last season, in > particular, illustrated this at great length, as did, to a lesser > extent, season three. Indeed, the individuals and group who generally > adhere to this constant, unchanging definition have been universally > portrayed as ineffectual, dangerous, or both (see: Council of > Watchers, The and Initiative, The). > > > They don't mix, and they don't care about each other's well-being. > > Again, this just isn't true. The Mayor cared for Faith. Spike cared > for Drusilla back when everyone considered him evil without much > comment. Then, if you'll permit me to switch series temporarily, there > was the vampire couple from the third season premiere of ANGEL. > > The greatest practical change the absence of a soul seems to indicate > is no independent ethical code. Vampires and other soulless beings act > out of pure selfishness, interested primarily in doing what serves > their interests best. The way I understand the Buffyverse paradigm, is that humans have souls and are inherently good, and vampires lack souls and are inherently evil. Evil in the Buffyverse preys on good and tries to destroy it. It's a compulsion; it's not optional. Because of this, good and evil simply can't get along, it's always going to be a fight to the death. That's why a dichotomy exists. Now, humans can act in an evil manner. They have a free will in this sense that vampires don't. Vampires don't have the free will to do good, unless they become ensouled. > > > For Spike to have > > breached that schism and felt genuine remorse for Joyce's death indicates > > that he was not totally evil, and capable of genuine good. > > "Capable of good" is different from *being* good. Spike performed acts > of genuine good throughout his time with the Scooby Gang. What > matters, ultimately, is his motivation. He had two main reasons for > performing good deeds: to prevent himself from being staked, and to > impress Buffy. Buffy recognized he was "capable of good" in late > season five, at the end of the whole Buffybot ordeal. But he still > wasn't a good person, he was a selfishly-motivated person who just > happened, at that moment, to be working towards a goal that meshed > with the Scooby Gang's genuine "goodness." I'd never argue that Spike was a good person, only that he wasn't totally evil as other vampires are. The humanity he retained after being vamped allowed him to empathize with the good, and bridge that good/evil chasm. Given that vamps are inherently evil, that's quite an accomplishment. > > > I think remorse implies a degree of goodness. He wasn't looking for > > redemption, he saw himself for what he was: evil, a predator of humans. > > However he was still capable of sometimes empathizing with humans which is a > > component of conscience. > > True, but somewhat irrelevant. It was only a small component of > conscience, it meant nothing on its own. For Spike's redemption, > remorse only meant something when it was actual, internal remorse for > his own actions. And he never showed this, without a soul. The closest > he ever got was right before he went on his soul quest, and, even > though, it was likely just as much a reaction to Buffy's disgust than > honest recognition of wrongdoing on his part. > > > Spike operates on several contradictory levels. That scene demonstrsted the > > battle between good and evil going on within him. > > Eh. I don't think Spike ever had a true battle between good and evil > going on within him until after his soul was restored. His > "contradictions" make perfect sense for a self-oriented being, even if > they're unusual actions for a vampire (but then, Spike was in an > unusual situation to begin with). I disagree, he put his existence in jeopardy on a number of occasions. Self-interest would cause him to save himself, yet he was willing to sacrifice his life. > > > That he'd rather die than be the cause of such pain to Buffy, to me, > > indicates that he has nobility, and his feelings for her were not a sham. > > I've never argued that they were. But listen again to Spike's > reasoning, because it all came back to him. *He* couldn't live to see > Buffy in such pain, etc. He cared for Buffy, and worked to please > Buffy. What pleased Buffy was goodness (so to speak). So he tried to > be good. But his only motivation to ever do good was to please her and > those around her. Everything he did was driven towards that goal. > > Which, don't get me wrong, doesn't make him a villain. Better for him > to do good for selfish reasons than to do bad for whatever reasons. > But it doesn't make him inherently good, nor does it represent a > significant change from the Spike we saw in early S2. No, he's inherently evil, which makes any altruistic act all the more impressive. Willing to die rather than having Buffy in pain goes beyond any false feelings or selfish reasons. Seems to me to be genuine love. I think it's a significant change from early Spike. > > > Why I'd give him credit for attempting to become good is that after Buffy > > died, he continued working alongside the Scoobies and looking after Dawn. He > > continued doing good even though the object of his love and affection was > > gone. > > I don't buy it, really, although I see the argument. But there are > other factors to consider: Spike was still reliant on the Scooby Gang > for some degree of protection, and though the object of his greatest > emotional attachment was gone, he did have other people in that social > group whom he considered relatively important as friends (Joyce, Dawn, > etc.). When you think about it, what, on a practical level, had > changed for Spike from before? He had reason to stick around the > Scoobies before he realized his feelings for Buffy, and those reasons > remained following this realization, as well. He could have skipped town. He didn't need the Scoobies for protection, the Initiative was no longer around. He didn't care for Xander or Giles or even Willow. Only perhaps Dawn. That he stuck around to help them indicates that he had changed.

2003-01-30 08:08:24-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <H%4_9.4261$wd2.329954@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote: > > > In the case of the Master/Darla and Mayor/Faith, they all have something > in > > > common: They're evil! Their affection for each other is genuine, however > > > it's a perverse mirror image of what is normal and good. It's based on > them > > > having certain things in common: causing pain and suffering amongst > > > humanity (the good) being high on the list. > > > > I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps with the Master and Darla (any glimpse > > of that relationship's dynamic was neccessarily short), but the Mayor > > had genuine fatherly affection for Faith that went beyond just the > > neccessities of being sadistically evil. If that were all it were, > > then its hard to explain his little "provisions" for Faith in season > > four. > > I think the Mayor was just using Faith, preying on her insecurities. Any > affection he felt for her is of the perverse mirror image type I wrote of > above. He sent her out to knife an old defenceless Prof. for gods sake! What > kind of father figure would do that? > As for the provisions he left for her in season 4, he could have left money, > false papers, stuff for her to get away and start a new life. Instead he > tells her it's all over for her, and that she should go out with a bang, and > leaves a device with which she could wreak more havoc. I think this was just > his way of perpetuating evil from beyond the grave. Ummmm.... he did leave her money, false papers (passport) and stuff for her to get away. The Mayor knew that when she awoke she'd have a record. The had her picture, fingerprints and DNA.... if the police didn't find her at some point the Council would have. She would have been hunted for the rest of her life without a good disguise. The Mayor provided her with the best one he could think of.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-01-30 08:08:24-06:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <H%4_9.4261$wd2.329954@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote: > > > In the case of the Master/Darla and Mayor/Faith, they all have something > in > > > common: They're evil! Their affection for each other is genuine, however > > > it's a perverse mirror image of what is normal and good. It's based on > them > > > having certain things in common: causing pain and suffering amongst > > > humanity (the good) being high on the list. > > > > I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps with the Master and Darla (any glimpse > > of that relationship's dynamic was neccessarily short), but the Mayor > > had genuine fatherly affection for Faith that went beyond just the > > neccessities of being sadistically evil. If that were all it were, > > then its hard to explain his little "provisions" for Faith in season > > four. > > I think the Mayor was just using Faith, preying on her insecurities. Any > affection he felt for her is of the perverse mirror image type I wrote of > above. He sent her out to knife an old defenceless Prof. for gods sake! What > kind of father figure would do that? > As for the provisions he left for her in season 4, he could have left money, > false papers, stuff for her to get away and start a new life. Instead he > tells her it's all over for her, and that she should go out with a bang, and > leaves a device with which she could wreak more havoc. I think this was just > his way of perpetuating evil from beyond the grave. Ummmm.... he did leave her money, false papers (passport) and stuff for her to get away. The Mayor knew that when she awoke she'd have a record. The had her picture, fingerprints and DNA.... if the police didn't find her at some point the Council would have. She would have been hunted for the rest of her life without a good disguise. The Mayor provided her with the best one he could think of.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-01-30 12:14:40-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <a-66A4AA.08082430012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote: > In article <H%4_9.4261$wd2.329954@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, > "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote: > > I think the Mayor was just using Faith, preying on her insecurities. Any > > affection he felt for her is of the perverse mirror image type I wrote of > > above. He sent her out to knife an old defenceless Prof. for gods sake! What > > kind of father figure would do that? > > As for the provisions he left for her in season 4, he could have left money, > > false papers, stuff for her to get away and start a new life. Instead he > > tells her it's all over for her, and that she should go out with a bang, and > > leaves a device with which she could wreak more havoc. I think this was just > > his way of perpetuating evil from beyond the grave. > > Ummmm.... he did leave her money, false papers (passport) and stuff for > her to get away. I suppose, if you can call her happening to find Buffy's passport, and the little bit of cash in Joyce's purse "leaving her with money and false papers.) A *real* fake passport with Faith's photo on it, and a million dollars would have been more useful to her. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-01-30 12:14:40-05:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <a-66A4AA.08082430012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote: > In article <H%4_9.4261$wd2.329954@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, > "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote: > > I think the Mayor was just using Faith, preying on her insecurities. Any > > affection he felt for her is of the perverse mirror image type I wrote of > > above. He sent her out to knife an old defenceless Prof. for gods sake! What > > kind of father figure would do that? > > As for the provisions he left for her in season 4, he could have left money, > > false papers, stuff for her to get away and start a new life. Instead he > > tells her it's all over for her, and that she should go out with a bang, and > > leaves a device with which she could wreak more havoc. I think this was just > > his way of perpetuating evil from beyond the grave. > > Ummmm.... he did leave her money, false papers (passport) and stuff for > her to get away. I suppose, if you can call her happening to find Buffy's passport, and the little bit of cash in Joyce's purse "leaving her with money and false papers.) A *real* fake passport with Faith's photo on it, and a million dollars would have been more useful to her. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-01-30 19:01:07+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> > Ummmm.... he did leave her money, false papers (passport) and stuff for > > her to get away. > > I suppose, if you can call her happening to find Buffy's passport, and > the little bit of cash in Joyce's purse "leaving her with money and > false papers.) > > A *real* fake passport with Faith's photo on it, and a million dollars > would have been more useful to her. > Id have to check up on it, but I thought the only thing he left her was the switcharoo thingy.

2003-01-30 19:01:07+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> > Ummmm.... he did leave her money, false papers (passport) and stuff for > > her to get away. > > I suppose, if you can call her happening to find Buffy's passport, and > the little bit of cash in Joyce's purse "leaving her with money and > false papers.) > > A *real* fake passport with Faith's photo on it, and a million dollars > would have been more useful to her. > Id have to check up on it, but I thought the only thing he left her was the switcharoo thingy.

2003-01-30 22:38:47-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (catwoman@marvin.lhi2.net)


Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:<300120031214400624%dsample@synapse.net>... > In article <a-66A4AA.08082430012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Darwin Fish > <a@a.edu> wrote: > > > In article <H%4_9.4261$wd2.329954@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, > > "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote: > > > > I think the Mayor was just using Faith, preying on her insecurities. Any > > > affection he felt for her is of the perverse mirror image type I wrote of > > > above. He sent her out to knife an old defenceless Prof. for gods sake! What > > > kind of father figure would do that? > > > As for the provisions he left for her in season 4, he could have left money, > > > false papers, stuff for her to get away and start a new life. Instead he > > > tells her it's all over for her, and that she should go out with a bang, and > > > leaves a device with which she could wreak more havoc. I think this was just > > > his way of perpetuating evil from beyond the grave. > > > > Ummmm.... he did leave her money, false papers (passport) and stuff for > > her to get away. > > I suppose, if you can call her happening to find Buffy's passport, and > the little bit of cash in Joyce's purse "leaving her with money and > false papers.) > > A *real* fake passport with Faith's photo on it, and a million dollars > would have been more useful to her. How would that be useful to her when she was in *Buffy's* body?.... I've never believed the Mayor actually intended for Faith to "go out with a bang" -- he gave her a body switching device, not a bomb or poison. It was something expressly designed to give Faith a new face, new background-- better than any passport would've. As far as the Mayor faking his feelings for Faith-- come on, they were *depending* on him wanting revenge for Faith so they could trick him into the school. If anyone was faking in that relationship, I find it easier to believe it was Faith, going undercover and gaining the Mayor's trust to win favor with Buffy and the gang. Kind of makes you almost feel bad for the guy-- he was screwed from the get-go.

2003-01-30 22:38:47-08:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (catwoman@marvin.lhi2.net)


Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message news:<300120031214400624%dsample@synapse.net>... > In article <a-66A4AA.08082430012003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, Darwin Fish > <a@a.edu> wrote: > > > In article <H%4_9.4261$wd2.329954@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, > > "napier" <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote: > > > > I think the Mayor was just using Faith, preying on her insecurities. Any > > > affection he felt for her is of the perverse mirror image type I wrote of > > > above. He sent her out to knife an old defenceless Prof. for gods sake! What > > > kind of father figure would do that? > > > As for the provisions he left for her in season 4, he could have left money, > > > false papers, stuff for her to get away and start a new life. Instead he > > > tells her it's all over for her, and that she should go out with a bang, and > > > leaves a device with which she could wreak more havoc. I think this was just > > > his way of perpetuating evil from beyond the grave. > > > > Ummmm.... he did leave her money, false papers (passport) and stuff for > > her to get away. > > I suppose, if you can call her happening to find Buffy's passport, and > the little bit of cash in Joyce's purse "leaving her with money and > false papers.) > > A *real* fake passport with Faith's photo on it, and a million dollars > would have been more useful to her. How would that be useful to her when she was in *Buffy's* body?.... I've never believed the Mayor actually intended for Faith to "go out with a bang" -- he gave her a body switching device, not a bomb or poison. It was something expressly designed to give Faith a new face, new background-- better than any passport would've. As far as the Mayor faking his feelings for Faith-- come on, they were *depending* on him wanting revenge for Faith so they could trick him into the school. If anyone was faking in that relationship, I find it easier to believe it was Faith, going undercover and gaining the Mayor's trust to win favor with Buffy and the gang. Kind of makes you almost feel bad for the guy-- he was screwed from the get-go.

2003-01-31 02:52:21+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (James Craine <JamesCraine@Hotmail.com>)


david wrote: > >He never repented for his past victims though, but on step at a time. :) > > True, before this point, gestures of kindness and goodwill were seen > as weakness in his eyes. But all of a sudden, he starts to see those > gesture as so much more. > > BTW - which episode is it that Spike says 'A man can change'? And then, it is said, his heart grew 3 sizes that day. (Which made it a bigger target.)

2003-01-31 02:52:21+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (James Craine <JamesCraine@Hotmail.com>)


david wrote: > >He never repented for his past victims though, but on step at a time. :) > > True, before this point, gestures of kindness and goodwill were seen > as weakness in his eyes. But all of a sudden, he starts to see those > gesture as so much more. > > BTW - which episode is it that Spike says 'A man can change'? And then, it is said, his heart grew 3 sizes that day. (Which made it a bigger target.)

2003-01-31 08:56:52+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> He was just trying to set things right. > As Faith put it when she met Buffy on campus, > "YOU TOOK MY LIFE!". > In Enemies she also said "This was MY town!". What a psycho...how could Sunnydale be her town? > > He just provided the means for Faith to take back > what was rightfully hers. What she deserved. > And for Buffy to get the punishment she deserved > in prison.

2003-01-31 08:56:52+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> He was just trying to set things right. > As Faith put it when she met Buffy on campus, > "YOU TOOK MY LIFE!". > In Enemies she also said "This was MY town!". What a psycho...how could Sunnydale be her town? > > He just provided the means for Faith to take back > what was rightfully hers. What she deserved. > And for Buffy to get the punishment she deserved > in prison.

2003-01-31 08:57:41+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> > How would that be useful to her when she was in *Buffy's* body?.... > > I've never believed the Mayor actually intended for Faith to "go out > with a bang" -- he gave her a body switching device, not a bomb or > poison. It was something expressly designed to give Faith a new face, > new background-- better than any passport would've. > As far as the Mayor faking his feelings for Faith-- come on, they were > *depending* on him wanting revenge for Faith so they could trick him > into the school. Good point.

2003-01-31 08:57:41+00:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (napier <somebody@somewhere.com>)


> > How would that be useful to her when she was in *Buffy's* body?.... > > I've never believed the Mayor actually intended for Faith to "go out > with a bang" -- he gave her a body switching device, not a bomb or > poison. It was something expressly designed to give Faith a new face, > new background-- better than any passport would've. > As far as the Mayor faking his feelings for Faith-- come on, they were > *depending* on him wanting revenge for Faith so they could trick him > into the school. Good point.

2003-01-31 18:08:22+11:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (John <jw@nospam.unico.com.au>)


napier wrote: > > > > Ummmm.... he did leave her money, false papers (passport) and stuff for > > > her to get away. > > > > I suppose, if you can call her happening to find Buffy's passport, and > > the little bit of cash in Joyce's purse "leaving her with money and > > false papers.) > > > > A *real* fake passport with Faith's photo on it, and a million dollars > > would have been more useful to her. > > > Id have to check up on it, but I thought the only thing he left her was the > switcharoo thingy. He was just trying to set things right. As Faith put it when she met Buffy on campus, "YOU TOOK MY LIFE!". In Enemies she also said "This was MY town!". He just provided the means for Faith to take back what was rightfully hers. What she deserved. And for Buffy to get the punishment she deserved in prison.

2003-01-31 18:08:22+11:00 - Re: Why did Spike fall in love? - (John <jw@nospam.unico.com.au>)


napier wrote: > > > > Ummmm.... he did leave her money, false papers (passport) and stuff for > > > her to get away. > > > > I suppose, if you can call her happening to find Buffy's passport, and > > the little bit of cash in Joyce's purse "leaving her with money and > > false papers.) > > > > A *real* fake passport with Faith's photo on it, and a million dollars > > would have been more useful to her. > > > Id have to check up on it, but I thought the only thing he left her was the > switcharoo thingy. He was just trying to set things right. As Faith put it when she met Buffy on campus, "YOU TOOK MY LIFE!". In Enemies she also said "This was MY town!". He just provided the means for Faith to take back what was rightfully hers. What she deserved. And for Buffy to get the punishment she deserved in prison.