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2003-05-13 19:57:35-07:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (vitruvian@globalfrequency.org)


> ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical > after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too > much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?").

2003-05-13 19:57:35-07:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (vitruvian@globalfrequency.org)


> ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical > after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too > much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?").

2003-05-13 22:47:05+00:00 - Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (thezanyrogue@aol.com)


...Buffy getting it on with Soulless Spike. No matter how many ways this is spun, I think it was too against the Buffy character, whether she "came back wrong" or not. Having a fling sure, having a fling with a reensouled Spike? sure. But NO WAY when only a stupid chip is the only thing keeping him from being a rabid killer. Now, this is complicated by the entire Chip/Riley/govt angle. Perhaps Riley should have been a regular BFriend, maybe in the govt but not a supersecret Govt agency that had anything to do with Vamps etc Perhaps the storyline should have been Spike getting his soul back in THAT season, which would made for more drama during the Glory Year (tm Bruce Springsteen) AND when Buffy died..again. ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. The really gutsy show and script is one for Willow to decide the lesbianism was just a reaction to her being hurt, and that she really ISN'T a lesbian. Even if they did an experimental angle...I just don't think its true to her character, from beginning to end. I wouldnt have went there in the first place, but even if they did, it should have just been experimental IMHO. There would be plenty of material for that....dealing with the Tara/Xander/Wolfie emotional issues than just shacking up with that annoying Kennedy, which in this crowded season looks like nothing more than filler. There is no backstory, no real emotion, and no TIME to develop that relationship even if they wanted to. Whether willow should be with Xander, have SG's character come back, a new guy, no guy...I just think those relationships should be more influential. Its almost as if they have completely forgotten Xander and Willow had a kinship way before Buffy and Giles ever came to town. This is less so, but Anya and Xander's dealings with each other post failed wedding attempt just seems way off to me. I think they wanted to keep Anya's character around, but had absolutely no idea what to do with the two of them. Plus, ultimately, I think they would up with So many disparate threads they couldn't possible keep them all going to their needed potential. Sometimes less is more. The logic of Dawn aside, I hated this at the time, but looking back, I dont think it really disrupted the flow of the show as much as other issues..at least to me. Its bigger PLOT wise, obviously, but in execution, not really so much. After it happened, Dawn was just....there. Buffy/Willow/Xander/Giles and Spike all morphed here and there....Really this is two shows....pre college and post college. I like them both, but really, its two different shows.

2003-05-13 22:47:05+00:00 - Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (thezanyrogue@aol.com)


...Buffy getting it on with Soulless Spike. No matter how many ways this is spun, I think it was too against the Buffy character, whether she "came back wrong" or not. Having a fling sure, having a fling with a reensouled Spike? sure. But NO WAY when only a stupid chip is the only thing keeping him from being a rabid killer. Now, this is complicated by the entire Chip/Riley/govt angle. Perhaps Riley should have been a regular BFriend, maybe in the govt but not a supersecret Govt agency that had anything to do with Vamps etc Perhaps the storyline should have been Spike getting his soul back in THAT season, which would made for more drama during the Glory Year (tm Bruce Springsteen) AND when Buffy died..again. ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. The really gutsy show and script is one for Willow to decide the lesbianism was just a reaction to her being hurt, and that she really ISN'T a lesbian. Even if they did an experimental angle...I just don't think its true to her character, from beginning to end. I wouldnt have went there in the first place, but even if they did, it should have just been experimental IMHO. There would be plenty of material for that....dealing with the Tara/Xander/Wolfie emotional issues than just shacking up with that annoying Kennedy, which in this crowded season looks like nothing more than filler. There is no backstory, no real emotion, and no TIME to develop that relationship even if they wanted to. Whether willow should be with Xander, have SG's character come back, a new guy, no guy...I just think those relationships should be more influential. Its almost as if they have completely forgotten Xander and Willow had a kinship way before Buffy and Giles ever came to town. This is less so, but Anya and Xander's dealings with each other post failed wedding attempt just seems way off to me. I think they wanted to keep Anya's character around, but had absolutely no idea what to do with the two of them. Plus, ultimately, I think they would up with So many disparate threads they couldn't possible keep them all going to their needed potential. Sometimes less is more. The logic of Dawn aside, I hated this at the time, but looking back, I dont think it really disrupted the flow of the show as much as other issues..at least to me. Its bigger PLOT wise, obviously, but in execution, not really so much. After it happened, Dawn was just....there. Buffy/Willow/Xander/Giles and Spike all morphed here and there....Really this is two shows....pre college and post college. I like them both, but really, its two different shows.

2003-05-13 23:28:44+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (nick010459@aol.command.com)


>.Buffy getting it on with Soulless Spike. No matter how many ways this is >spun, I think it was too against the Buffy character, whether she "came back >wrong" or not. Having a fling sure, having a fling with a reensouled Spike? >sure. But NO WAY when only a stupid chip is the only thing keeping him from >being a rabid killer. Now, this is complicated by the entire Chip/Riley/govt >angle. Perhaps Riley should have been a regular BFriend, maybe in the govt >but >not a supersecret Govt agency that had anything to do with Vamps etc Perhaps >the storyline should have been Spike getting his soul back in THAT season, >which would made for more drama during the Glory Year (tm Bruce Springsteen) >AND when Buffy died..again. Never got into the Buffy and Spike love affair. Seemed against the Buffy charactor. >..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too >illogical >after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too >much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. The >really gutsy show and script is one for Willow to decide the lesbianism was >just a reaction to her being hurt, and that she really ISN'T a lesbian. Even >if >they did an experimental angle...I just don't think its true to her >character, >from beginning to end. I wouldnt have went there in the first place, but even >if they did, it should have just been experimental IMHO. There would be >plenty >of material for that....dealing with the Tara/Xander/Wolfie emotional issues >than just shacking up with that annoying Kennedy, which in this crowded >season >looks like nothing more than filler. There is no backstory, no real emotion, >and no TIME to develop that relationship even if they wanted to. Whether >willow should be with Xander, have SG's character come back, a new guy, no >guy...I just think those relationships should be more influential. Its almost >as if they have completely forgotten Xander and Willow had a kinship way >before >Buffy and Giles ever came to town. This season would have been so much better with a return to the Willow/Xander arc. Willow's "Gay now" sounds more like she's trying to convince herself that she's gay. >This is less so, but Anya and Xander's dealings with each other post failed >wedding attempt just seems way off to me. I think they wanted to keep Anya's >character around, but had absolutely no idea what to do with the two of them. >Plus, ultimately, I think they would up with So many disparate threads they >couldn't possible keep them all going to their needed potential. Sometimes >less is more. Wish ME explored for this season the Giles and Anya relationship that clicked in Tabula Rasa. >The logic of Dawn aside, I hated this at the time, but looking back, I dont >think it really disrupted the flow of the show as much as other issues..at >least to me. Its bigger PLOT wise, obviously, but in execution, not really >so >much. After it happened, Dawn was just....there. Buffy/Willow/Xander/Giles >and >Spike all morphed here and there....Really this is two shows....pre college >and >post college. I like them both, but really, its two different shows. ME could have done more with Dawn and what ever the hell the Key is. A interesting charactor pretty much wasted with nothing to do. This season she's totally lost to view in the mob of SITs. > > > >

2003-05-13 23:28:44+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (nick010459@aol.command.com)


>.Buffy getting it on with Soulless Spike. No matter how many ways this is >spun, I think it was too against the Buffy character, whether she "came back >wrong" or not. Having a fling sure, having a fling with a reensouled Spike? >sure. But NO WAY when only a stupid chip is the only thing keeping him from >being a rabid killer. Now, this is complicated by the entire Chip/Riley/govt >angle. Perhaps Riley should have been a regular BFriend, maybe in the govt >but >not a supersecret Govt agency that had anything to do with Vamps etc Perhaps >the storyline should have been Spike getting his soul back in THAT season, >which would made for more drama during the Glory Year (tm Bruce Springsteen) >AND when Buffy died..again. Never got into the Buffy and Spike love affair. Seemed against the Buffy charactor. >..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too >illogical >after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too >much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. The >really gutsy show and script is one for Willow to decide the lesbianism was >just a reaction to her being hurt, and that she really ISN'T a lesbian. Even >if >they did an experimental angle...I just don't think its true to her >character, >from beginning to end. I wouldnt have went there in the first place, but even >if they did, it should have just been experimental IMHO. There would be >plenty >of material for that....dealing with the Tara/Xander/Wolfie emotional issues >than just shacking up with that annoying Kennedy, which in this crowded >season >looks like nothing more than filler. There is no backstory, no real emotion, >and no TIME to develop that relationship even if they wanted to. Whether >willow should be with Xander, have SG's character come back, a new guy, no >guy...I just think those relationships should be more influential. Its almost >as if they have completely forgotten Xander and Willow had a kinship way >before >Buffy and Giles ever came to town. This season would have been so much better with a return to the Willow/Xander arc. Willow's "Gay now" sounds more like she's trying to convince herself that she's gay. >This is less so, but Anya and Xander's dealings with each other post failed >wedding attempt just seems way off to me. I think they wanted to keep Anya's >character around, but had absolutely no idea what to do with the two of them. >Plus, ultimately, I think they would up with So many disparate threads they >couldn't possible keep them all going to their needed potential. Sometimes >less is more. Wish ME explored for this season the Giles and Anya relationship that clicked in Tabula Rasa. >The logic of Dawn aside, I hated this at the time, but looking back, I dont >think it really disrupted the flow of the show as much as other issues..at >least to me. Its bigger PLOT wise, obviously, but in execution, not really >so >much. After it happened, Dawn was just....there. Buffy/Willow/Xander/Giles >and >Spike all morphed here and there....Really this is two shows....pre college >and >post college. I like them both, but really, its two different shows. ME could have done more with Dawn and what ever the hell the Key is. A interesting charactor pretty much wasted with nothing to do. This season she's totally lost to view in the mob of SITs. > > > >

2003-05-14 01:25:00+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (johnfeer@aol.com)


Now me, I never got Willow the hyperationalist going in for sorcery...granted she's surrounded with the stuff, but it damaged her character for her to go the enchantress route. That is something I never got... :)

2003-05-14 01:25:00+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (johnfeer@aol.com)


Now me, I never got Willow the hyperationalist going in for sorcery...granted she's surrounded with the stuff, but it damaged her character for her to go the enchantress route. That is something I never got... :)

2003-05-14 02:45:37+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Fenster <FensterNMcManus@hotmail.com>)


On 13 May 2003, nick010459@aol.command.com (Nick010459) went to the cliffs of hope and faith and kicked the toll booth off: > Seemed against the Buffy charactor. I think that was the whole point. Buffy was dealing with being ripped from the cuddly womb of the afterlife and was feeling a bit lost. It was jarring to me as well, but in retrospect it made sense���even if the execution of the storyline was uneven.

2003-05-14 02:45:37+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Fenster <FensterNMcManus@hotmail.com>)


On 13 May 2003, nick010459@aol.command.com (Nick010459) went to the cliffs of hope and faith and kicked the toll booth off: > Seemed against the Buffy charactor. I think that was the whole point. Buffy was dealing with being ripped from the cuddly womb of the afterlife and was feeling a bit lost. It was jarring to me as well, but in retrospect it made sense���even if the execution of the storyline was uneven.

2003-05-14 03:26:16+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Daniel Day <danielday@sc.rr.com>)


"Vitruvian" <vitruvian@globalfrequency.org> wrote in message news:700af493.0305131857.1f3b4f7@posting.google.com... > > ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical > > after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too > > much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. > > But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara > never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear > that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so > the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the > creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers > ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?"). Actually, I think that was probably the idea behind the character all along, but after the backlash surrounding Tara's death, there was nothing ME could have done except make her 100% gay. Why Willow at this point in her life would be 100% sure about her sexuality is beyond me - its the one thing about her character shes sure about - is she evil or good?? Why should she have a devinitive answer about her sexuality?

2003-05-14 03:26:16+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Daniel Day <danielday@sc.rr.com>)


"Vitruvian" <vitruvian@globalfrequency.org> wrote in message news:700af493.0305131857.1f3b4f7@posting.google.com... > > ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical > > after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too > > much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. > > But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara > never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear > that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so > the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the > creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers > ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?"). Actually, I think that was probably the idea behind the character all along, but after the backlash surrounding Tara's death, there was nothing ME could have done except make her 100% gay. Why Willow at this point in her life would be 100% sure about her sexuality is beyond me - its the one thing about her character shes sure about - is she evil or good?? Why should she have a devinitive answer about her sexuality?

2003-05-14 03:39:53+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Vitruvian" <vitruvian@globalfrequency.org> wrote in message news:700af493.0305131857.1f3b4f7@posting.google.com... > > ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical > > after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too > > much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. > > But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara > never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear > that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so > the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the > creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers > ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?"). Personally, (and I really hate to get this argument started again, but...) I think it's not at all too complicated a thing for either the viewers *or* the writers. It's *Willow's* experience (or lack thereof, actually,) that makes it complicated for *her.* Willow is smart, strong-willed, etc, but not exactly what you'd call worldly...she has a crush on Xander, and later falls for Oz in a *big* way - so she's disturbed at her doppelganger's seemingly ambivalent sexuality. Then she meets Tara and falls *hard* - so she equates it to "Gay now." I suspect that a few years down the road, Willow would probably figure out that she likes boys *and* girls. Or not... JMO. -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-14 03:39:53+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com>)


"Vitruvian" <vitruvian@globalfrequency.org> wrote in message news:700af493.0305131857.1f3b4f7@posting.google.com... > > ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical > > after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too > > much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. > > But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara > never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear > that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so > the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the > creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers > ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?"). Personally, (and I really hate to get this argument started again, but...) I think it's not at all too complicated a thing for either the viewers *or* the writers. It's *Willow's* experience (or lack thereof, actually,) that makes it complicated for *her.* Willow is smart, strong-willed, etc, but not exactly what you'd call worldly...she has a crush on Xander, and later falls for Oz in a *big* way - so she's disturbed at her doppelganger's seemingly ambivalent sexuality. Then she meets Tara and falls *hard* - so she equates it to "Gay now." I suspect that a few years down the road, Willow would probably figure out that she likes boys *and* girls. Or not... JMO. -- Rowan Hawthorn

2003-05-14 17:30:49+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (slidge@slidge.com)


> ...Buffy getting it on with Soulless Spike. No matter how many ways > this is spun, I think it was too against the Buffy character, whether > she "came back wrong" or not. Not only against the Buffy character, but I also felt it was against Spike's character as well. That relationship was flawed from both sides.

2003-05-14 17:30:49+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (slidge@slidge.com)


> ...Buffy getting it on with Soulless Spike. No matter how many ways > this is spun, I think it was too against the Buffy character, whether > she "came back wrong" or not. Not only against the Buffy character, but I also felt it was against Spike's character as well. That relationship was flawed from both sides.

2003-05-16 02:58:49+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Starshadow <starshadow@starshadowlovesxenu.net>)


Vitruvian wrote: >>..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical >>after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too >>much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. > > > But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara > never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear > that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so > the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the > creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers > ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?"). Even lesbians sometimes fall in love with men before they realize who and what they are. It doesn't make them bisexual, any more than it makes a gay man bisexual who falls in love with a woman, marries her, realizes something is missing, and figures it out, sometimes falling in love with a man. I should know. I'm a lesbian who did in fact fall in love with a man, before I figured out that I was a lesbian. In retrospect, I'm glad it wound up not going anywhere as much for his sake as for mine. Bright Blessings, Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/goon-squad-follies.html for the High Crime of Disagreeing with self-made cult victim Gerry Armstrong and Caroline Letkeman. For the real truth about cults go to www.xenu.net to email remove "lovesxenu"

2003-05-16 02:58:49+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Starshadow <starshadow@starshadowlovesxenu.net>)


Vitruvian wrote: >>..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical >>after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too >>much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. > > > But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara > never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear > that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so > the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the > creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers > ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?"). Even lesbians sometimes fall in love with men before they realize who and what they are. It doesn't make them bisexual, any more than it makes a gay man bisexual who falls in love with a woman, marries her, realizes something is missing, and figures it out, sometimes falling in love with a man. I should know. I'm a lesbian who did in fact fall in love with a man, before I figured out that I was a lesbian. In retrospect, I'm glad it wound up not going anywhere as much for his sake as for mine. Bright Blessings, Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/goon-squad-follies.html for the High Crime of Disagreeing with self-made cult victim Gerry Armstrong and Caroline Letkeman. For the real truth about cults go to www.xenu.net to email remove "lovesxenu"

2003-05-16 03:25:40+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Ken Cobb <jkcobb@attbi.com>)


On Fri, 16 May 2003 02:58:49 GMT, Starshadow <starshadow@starshadowlovesxenu.net> wrote: > I should know. I'm a lesbian who did in fact fall in love with a man, >before I figured out that I was a lesbian. In retrospect, I'm glad it >wound up not going anywhere as much for his sake as for mine. > >Bright Blessings, > >Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page Damn. Yet another woman I have no chance with. At this rate I'll still be alone when I hit 50. Perhaps I should get a sex change and turn Lesbian, might up my chances. Ken

2003-05-16 03:25:40+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Ken Cobb <jkcobb@attbi.com>)


On Fri, 16 May 2003 02:58:49 GMT, Starshadow <starshadow@starshadowlovesxenu.net> wrote: > I should know. I'm a lesbian who did in fact fall in love with a man, >before I figured out that I was a lesbian. In retrospect, I'm glad it >wound up not going anywhere as much for his sake as for mine. > >Bright Blessings, > >Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page Damn. Yet another woman I have no chance with. At this rate I'll still be alone when I hit 50. Perhaps I should get a sex change and turn Lesbian, might up my chances. Ken

2003-05-16 03:55:06+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Shorty <notrealshorty@hotmail.com>)


>...Buffy getting it on with Soulless Spike. No matter how many ways this is >spun, I think it was too against the Buffy character, whether she "came back >wrong" or not. Having a fling sure, having a fling with a reensouled Spike? >sure. But NO WAY when only a stupid chip is the only thing keeping him from >being a rabid killer. Now, this is complicated by the entire Chip/Riley/govt >angle. Perhaps Riley should have been a regular BFriend, maybe in the govt but >not a supersecret Govt agency that had anything to do with Vamps etc Perhaps >the storyline should have been Spike getting his soul back in THAT season, >which would made for more drama during the Glory Year (tm Bruce Springsteen) >AND when Buffy died..again. Agreed with Spike getting the soul, but I can understand Buffy going for the Spike sex. She was disgusted with herself and using him to not only feel but to punish herself. >..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical >after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too >much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. The >really gutsy show and script is one for Willow to decide the lesbianism was >just a reaction to her being hurt, and that she really ISN'T a lesbian. Even if >they did an experimental angle...I just don't think its true to her character, >from beginning to end. I wouldnt have went there in the first place, but even >if they did, it should have just been experimental IMHO. There would be plenty >of material for that....dealing with the Tara/Xander/Wolfie emotional issues >than just shacking up with that annoying Kennedy, which in this crowded season >looks like nothing more than filler. There is no backstory, no real emotion, >and no TIME to develop that relationship even if they wanted to. Whether >willow should be with Xander, have SG's character come back, a new guy, no >guy...I just think those relationships should be more influential. Its almost >as if they have completely forgotten Xander and Willow had a kinship way before >Buffy and Giles ever came to town. This I never understood either. You dont cry for months and nearly commit suicide over somebody unless you are seriously emotionally attached (with Oz of course). Also, her attraction to Xander not only defined her character for 3 years but was also almost strong enough to pull her away from Oz despite knowing it was wrong. That doenst seem like a lite or misunderstood attraction to me. Willows reaction about Tara's death only became more powerful because: Tara died instead of left, Willow was 100 times stronger than before, and she was emotionally distraught over their breakup and recent reconciliation. I would have preferred they made her bi as the show seemed to support that and that was Joss original plan up until the Gay Hate Mail Campaign. In a perfect world the writers would have never came out and expessley had her character say "Hello Gay now". It always seemed to me she was trying to convince herself more than those around her. In this perfect world the individual viewer could have made up their own minds about her sexuality based upon what they saw on screen, and ME could have spared itself a lot of flak and us a lot of arguing. >The logic of Dawn aside, I hated this at the time, but looking back, I dont >think it really disrupted the flow of the show as much as other issues..at >least to me. Its bigger PLOT wise, obviously, but in execution, not really so >much. After it happened, Dawn was just....there. Buffy/Willow/Xander/Giles and >Spike all morphed here and there....Really this is two shows....pre college and >post college. I like them both, but really, its two different shows. I like Dawn now. Though I would have strangled her with her own intestines in season 6. Shorty

2003-05-16 03:55:06+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Shorty <notrealshorty@hotmail.com>)


>...Buffy getting it on with Soulless Spike. No matter how many ways this is >spun, I think it was too against the Buffy character, whether she "came back >wrong" or not. Having a fling sure, having a fling with a reensouled Spike? >sure. But NO WAY when only a stupid chip is the only thing keeping him from >being a rabid killer. Now, this is complicated by the entire Chip/Riley/govt >angle. Perhaps Riley should have been a regular BFriend, maybe in the govt but >not a supersecret Govt agency that had anything to do with Vamps etc Perhaps >the storyline should have been Spike getting his soul back in THAT season, >which would made for more drama during the Glory Year (tm Bruce Springsteen) >AND when Buffy died..again. Agreed with Spike getting the soul, but I can understand Buffy going for the Spike sex. She was disgusted with herself and using him to not only feel but to punish herself. >..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too illogical >after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she felt too >much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. The >really gutsy show and script is one for Willow to decide the lesbianism was >just a reaction to her being hurt, and that she really ISN'T a lesbian. Even if >they did an experimental angle...I just don't think its true to her character, >from beginning to end. I wouldnt have went there in the first place, but even >if they did, it should have just been experimental IMHO. There would be plenty >of material for that....dealing with the Tara/Xander/Wolfie emotional issues >than just shacking up with that annoying Kennedy, which in this crowded season >looks like nothing more than filler. There is no backstory, no real emotion, >and no TIME to develop that relationship even if they wanted to. Whether >willow should be with Xander, have SG's character come back, a new guy, no >guy...I just think those relationships should be more influential. Its almost >as if they have completely forgotten Xander and Willow had a kinship way before >Buffy and Giles ever came to town. This I never understood either. You dont cry for months and nearly commit suicide over somebody unless you are seriously emotionally attached (with Oz of course). Also, her attraction to Xander not only defined her character for 3 years but was also almost strong enough to pull her away from Oz despite knowing it was wrong. That doenst seem like a lite or misunderstood attraction to me. Willows reaction about Tara's death only became more powerful because: Tara died instead of left, Willow was 100 times stronger than before, and she was emotionally distraught over their breakup and recent reconciliation. I would have preferred they made her bi as the show seemed to support that and that was Joss original plan up until the Gay Hate Mail Campaign. In a perfect world the writers would have never came out and expessley had her character say "Hello Gay now". It always seemed to me she was trying to convince herself more than those around her. In this perfect world the individual viewer could have made up their own minds about her sexuality based upon what they saw on screen, and ME could have spared itself a lot of flak and us a lot of arguing. >The logic of Dawn aside, I hated this at the time, but looking back, I dont >think it really disrupted the flow of the show as much as other issues..at >least to me. Its bigger PLOT wise, obviously, but in execution, not really so >much. After it happened, Dawn was just....there. Buffy/Willow/Xander/Giles and >Spike all morphed here and there....Really this is two shows....pre college and >post college. I like them both, but really, its two different shows. I like Dawn now. Though I would have strangled her with her own intestines in season 6. Shorty

2003-05-16 12:43:32-07:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (bethany_levrault@yahoo.com)


"3D Master" -- What an absolutely hilarious comment! Is your last name Kinsey?? Why must people categorize these things? Tsk, tsk. We're all human. Isn't that enough? > There are really only three sexualities: > > Hetero: Truly hetero, and just the thought of you doing anything with > someone of the same sex makes you want to puke your guts out. (Doesn't > make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything against > homosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> <themselves> doing > it, is disgusting to them.) > > Homo: Truly homo, and just the thought of you doing anything with > someone of the opposite sex makes you want to puke your guts out. > (Doesn't make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything > against heterosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> > <themselves> doing it, is disgusting to them.) > > And everything in between is bisexual. > > 3D Master

2003-05-16 12:43:32-07:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (bethany_levrault@yahoo.com)


"3D Master" -- What an absolutely hilarious comment! Is your last name Kinsey?? Why must people categorize these things? Tsk, tsk. We're all human. Isn't that enough? > There are really only three sexualities: > > Hetero: Truly hetero, and just the thought of you doing anything with > someone of the same sex makes you want to puke your guts out. (Doesn't > make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything against > homosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> <themselves> doing > it, is disgusting to them.) > > Homo: Truly homo, and just the thought of you doing anything with > someone of the opposite sex makes you want to puke your guts out. > (Doesn't make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything > against heterosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> > <themselves> doing it, is disgusting to them.) > > And everything in between is bisexual. > > 3D Master

2003-05-16 14:30:01+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (3D Master <3d.master@chello.nl>)


Starshadow wrote: > Vitruvian wrote: > >>> ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too >>> illogical >>> after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she >>> felt too >>> much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. >> >> >> >> But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara >> never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear >> that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so >> the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the >> creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers >> ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?"). > > > Even lesbians sometimes fall in love with men before they realize who > and what they are. > It doesn't make them bisexual, any more than it makes a gay man > bisexual who falls in love with a woman, marries her, realizes something > is missing, and figures it out, sometimes falling in love with a man. Either he was never in love with her in the first place and just thought he was, or made himself believe he was because of expectations, he didn't know any better, or he's a bisexual. The moment you've fallen in love with both sexes you're bisexual, just because you don't like the other sex as much, and prefer to be with the other doesn't make you any less bisexual. > I should know. I'm a lesbian who did in fact fall in love with a man, > before I figured out that I was a lesbian. In retrospect, I'm glad it > wound up not going anywhere as much for his sake as for mine. > > Bright Blessings, Same thing goes for you. There are really only three sexualities: Hetero: Truly hetero, and just the thought of you doing anything with someone of the same sex makes you want to puke your guts out. (Doesn't make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything against homosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> <themselves> doing it, is disgusting to them.) Homo: Truly homo, and just the thought of you doing anything with someone of the opposite sex makes you want to puke your guts out. (Doesn't make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything against heterosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> <themselves> doing it, is disgusting to them.) And everything in between is bisexual. 3D Master -- ~~~~~ "I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!" - The Kurgan, Highlander "Give me some sugar, baby!" - Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness ~~~~~ Author of several stories, which can be found here: http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/

2003-05-16 14:30:01+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (3D Master <3d.master@chello.nl>)


Starshadow wrote: > Vitruvian wrote: > >>> ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay too >>> illogical >>> after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she >>> felt too >>> much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" IMHO. >> >> >> >> But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara >> never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear >> that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so >> the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the >> creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers >> ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?"). > > > Even lesbians sometimes fall in love with men before they realize who > and what they are. > It doesn't make them bisexual, any more than it makes a gay man > bisexual who falls in love with a woman, marries her, realizes something > is missing, and figures it out, sometimes falling in love with a man. Either he was never in love with her in the first place and just thought he was, or made himself believe he was because of expectations, he didn't know any better, or he's a bisexual. The moment you've fallen in love with both sexes you're bisexual, just because you don't like the other sex as much, and prefer to be with the other doesn't make you any less bisexual. > I should know. I'm a lesbian who did in fact fall in love with a man, > before I figured out that I was a lesbian. In retrospect, I'm glad it > wound up not going anywhere as much for his sake as for mine. > > Bright Blessings, Same thing goes for you. There are really only three sexualities: Hetero: Truly hetero, and just the thought of you doing anything with someone of the same sex makes you want to puke your guts out. (Doesn't make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything against homosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> <themselves> doing it, is disgusting to them.) Homo: Truly homo, and just the thought of you doing anything with someone of the opposite sex makes you want to puke your guts out. (Doesn't make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything against heterosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> <themselves> doing it, is disgusting to them.) And everything in between is bisexual. 3D Master -- ~~~~~ "I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!" - The Kurgan, Highlander "Give me some sugar, baby!" - Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness ~~~~~ Author of several stories, which can be found here: http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/

2003-05-16 15:20:27+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Starshadow <starshadow@starshadowlovesxenu.net>)


Ken Cobb wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 2003 02:58:49 GMT, Starshadow > <starshadow@starshadowlovesxenu.net> wrote: > > > >> I should know. I'm a lesbian who did in fact fall in love with a man, >>before I figured out that I was a lesbian. In retrospect, I'm glad it >>wound up not going anywhere as much for his sake as for mine. >> >>Bright Blessings, >> >>Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page > > > Damn. Yet another woman I have no chance with. At this rate I'll still > be alone when I hit 50. Perhaps I should get a sex change and turn > Lesbian, might up my chances. > Not likely. Either you're transgender or you aren't, and if you aren't and try to be, chances are lesbians would turn you down flat. --- Bright Blessings, Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/goon-squad-follies.html for the High Crime of Disagreeing with self-made cult victim Gerry Armstrong and Caroline Letkeman. For the real truth about cults go to www.xenu.net to email remove "lovesxenu"

2003-05-16 15:20:27+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Starshadow <starshadow@starshadowlovesxenu.net>)


Ken Cobb wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 2003 02:58:49 GMT, Starshadow > <starshadow@starshadowlovesxenu.net> wrote: > > > >> I should know. I'm a lesbian who did in fact fall in love with a man, >>before I figured out that I was a lesbian. In retrospect, I'm glad it >>wound up not going anywhere as much for his sake as for mine. >> >>Bright Blessings, >> >>Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page > > > Damn. Yet another woman I have no chance with. At this rate I'll still > be alone when I hit 50. Perhaps I should get a sex change and turn > Lesbian, might up my chances. > Not likely. Either you're transgender or you aren't, and if you aren't and try to be, chances are lesbians would turn you down flat. --- Bright Blessings, Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/goon-squad-follies.html for the High Crime of Disagreeing with self-made cult victim Gerry Armstrong and Caroline Letkeman. For the real truth about cults go to www.xenu.net to email remove "lovesxenu"

2003-05-16 15:28:53+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Starshadow <starshadow@starshadowlovesxenu.net>)


3D Master wrote: > Starshadow wrote: > >> Vitruvian wrote: >> >>>> ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay >>>> too illogical >>>> after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she >>>> felt too >>>> much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" >>>> IMHO. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara >>> never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear >>> that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so >>> the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the >>> creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers >>> ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?"). >> >> >> >> Even lesbians sometimes fall in love with men before they realize who >> and what they are. >> It doesn't make them bisexual, any more than it makes a gay man >> bisexual who falls in love with a woman, marries her, realizes >> something is missing, and figures it out, sometimes falling in love >> with a man. > > > Either he was never in love with her in the first place and just thought > he was, or made himself believe he was because of expectations, he > didn't know any better, or he's a bisexual. The moment you've fallen in > love with both sexes you're bisexual, just because you don't like the > other sex as much, and prefer to be with the other doesn't make you any > less bisexual. > >> I should know. I'm a lesbian who did in fact fall in love with a man, >> before I figured out that I was a lesbian. In retrospect, I'm glad it >> wound up not going anywhere as much for his sake as for mine. >> >> Bright Blessings, > > > Same thing goes for you. > > There are really only three sexualities: > > Hetero: Truly hetero, and just the thought of you doing anything with > someone of the same sex makes you want to puke your guts out. (Doesn't > make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything against > homosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> <themselves> doing > it, is disgusting to them.) > > Homo: Truly homo, and just the thought of you doing anything with > someone of the opposite sex makes you want to puke your guts out. > (Doesn't make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything > against heterosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> > <themselves> doing it, is disgusting to them.) > > And everything in between is bisexual. > Very, very simplistic and totally wrong. For one thing, you're also leaving out transgenders and intersexed people, as well as celibates. Bisexuality is actually when someone can go either way. People who are disgusted by being with whichever sex have other problems, as opposed to simply finding out that they don't get turned on by whichever sex. I've known gay mean who were disgusted with the thought of sex with women (and lesbians also so disgusted) --generally they have some problems with the other sex which have nothing to do with sexuality or sex, such as men who had a deep hatred of women, and vice versa. I've known heterosexuals (generally men) who were disgusted by the thought of homosexual sex, and generally, these were closet cases or just afraid of bisexual urges they themselves possessed. Where the difference is for me is orgasms. I never had 'em with men. Orgasms aren't necessary for love, even as there are celibate marriages with no sex at all necessary. Mind you, I didn't know that I didn't have them until I had my first. I just figured the hype about real orgasms was just hype. Willow may have done the same. I suspect the same is true for most men and women. If you want a clue about bisexuality, read "View From Another Closet". --- Bright Blessings, Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/goon-squad-follies.html for the High Crime of Disagreeing with self-made cult victim Gerry Armstrong and Caroline Letkeman. For the real truth about cults go to www.xenu.net to email remove "lovesxenu"

2003-05-16 15:28:53+00:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (Starshadow <starshadow@starshadowlovesxenu.net>)


3D Master wrote: > Starshadow wrote: > >> Vitruvian wrote: >> >>>> ..Willow becoming a lesbian. I just feel like this was waaaaaaaay >>>> too illogical >>>> after her loving Xander and Wolfie. Now, going down that road, she >>>> felt too >>>> much for both of them for her to suddenly "realize I am a lesbian" >>>> IMHO. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> But not to realize that she liked girls, too. The romance with Tara >>> never seemed forced or unconvincing to me, for one. Now, it was clear >>> that she was truly into both Xander and Oz at those earlier times, so >>> the show should probably just refer to Willow as bi. Perhaps the >>> creators felt such a thing was too complicated for most viewers >>> ("but... how can she not be just one thing or the other?"). >> >> >> >> Even lesbians sometimes fall in love with men before they realize who >> and what they are. >> It doesn't make them bisexual, any more than it makes a gay man >> bisexual who falls in love with a woman, marries her, realizes >> something is missing, and figures it out, sometimes falling in love >> with a man. > > > Either he was never in love with her in the first place and just thought > he was, or made himself believe he was because of expectations, he > didn't know any better, or he's a bisexual. The moment you've fallen in > love with both sexes you're bisexual, just because you don't like the > other sex as much, and prefer to be with the other doesn't make you any > less bisexual. > >> I should know. I'm a lesbian who did in fact fall in love with a man, >> before I figured out that I was a lesbian. In retrospect, I'm glad it >> wound up not going anywhere as much for his sake as for mine. >> >> Bright Blessings, > > > Same thing goes for you. > > There are really only three sexualities: > > Hetero: Truly hetero, and just the thought of you doing anything with > someone of the same sex makes you want to puke your guts out. (Doesn't > make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything against > homosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> <themselves> doing > it, is disgusting to them.) > > Homo: Truly homo, and just the thought of you doing anything with > someone of the opposite sex makes you want to puke your guts out. > (Doesn't make him or her a bigot, and they might not have anything > against heterosexuality, it's just that the thought of <they> > <themselves> doing it, is disgusting to them.) > > And everything in between is bisexual. > Very, very simplistic and totally wrong. For one thing, you're also leaving out transgenders and intersexed people, as well as celibates. Bisexuality is actually when someone can go either way. People who are disgusted by being with whichever sex have other problems, as opposed to simply finding out that they don't get turned on by whichever sex. I've known gay mean who were disgusted with the thought of sex with women (and lesbians also so disgusted) --generally they have some problems with the other sex which have nothing to do with sexuality or sex, such as men who had a deep hatred of women, and vice versa. I've known heterosexuals (generally men) who were disgusted by the thought of homosexual sex, and generally, these were closet cases or just afraid of bisexual urges they themselves possessed. Where the difference is for me is orgasms. I never had 'em with men. Orgasms aren't necessary for love, even as there are celibate marriages with no sex at all necessary. Mind you, I didn't know that I didn't have them until I had my first. I just figured the hype about real orgasms was just hype. Willow may have done the same. I suspect the same is true for most men and women. If you want a clue about bisexuality, read "View From Another Closet". --- Bright Blessings, Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/goon-squad-follies.html for the High Crime of Disagreeing with self-made cult victim Gerry Armstrong and Caroline Letkeman. For the real truth about cults go to www.xenu.net to email remove "lovesxenu"

2003-05-17 08:56:53-07:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (vitruvian@globalfrequency.org)


Very interesting discussion. I am certainly not about to question the validity of your experiences or self-identification as lesbian rather than bi, and hope you don't take any of my speculations about a fictional character as doing so. However, bringing it back to Buffy, it always seemed to me that the evidence of onscreen events in terms of Willow enjoying both 1) sexual pleasure and 2) emotional intimacy and attachment to both sexes strongly suggests that she is somewhere in the middle of the Kinsey scale, not on either extreme, and her current identification as gay rather than bi may (possibly)be a temporary thing based on seeing things in binary terms and her having lots of *other* personal issues (y'know,like turning all balcck-eyed and evil) to work out at the moment. Come to think of it, in the context of the series, Willows's at almost the exact age when a certain friend of mine had gone from teenage crushes with boys to being a politically somewhat radical, neo-pagan/Wiccan, declared lesbian. She later decided she was bi, and ended up marrying a guy last summer. Not to say that that's any more likely than your experience to apply to Willow's case. Anyway, here's hoping we all (in the real world) figure out what we really want and have the courage to go for it, and not worry so much about the wants and needs of fictional characters. Josh & Co. have left things fuzzy enough with Willow that we are all free to interpret things however we want, and with the last show coming up Tuesday, anybody who wants to can work it out for themselves in fan fiction ad infinitum (or ad nauseum, as the case may be). ;-) Blessed be. > Where the difference is for me is orgasms. I never had 'em with men. > Orgasms aren't necessary for love, even as there are celibate marriages > with no sex at all necessary. Mind you, I didn't know that I didn't have > them until I had my first. I just figured the hype about real orgasms > was just hype. Willow may have done the same. > > I suspect the same is true for most men and women. > > If you want a clue about bisexuality, read "View From Another Closet". > > > --- > Bright Blessings, > > Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page > http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/goon-squad-follies.html > for the High Crime of Disagreeing with self-made cult victim Gerry > Armstrong and Caroline Letkeman. > For the real truth about cults go to www.xenu.net > to email remove "lovesxenu"

2003-05-17 08:56:53-07:00 - Re: Things I never "bought" in BtVS... - (vitruvian@globalfrequency.org)


Very interesting discussion. I am certainly not about to question the validity of your experiences or self-identification as lesbian rather than bi, and hope you don't take any of my speculations about a fictional character as doing so. However, bringing it back to Buffy, it always seemed to me that the evidence of onscreen events in terms of Willow enjoying both 1) sexual pleasure and 2) emotional intimacy and attachment to both sexes strongly suggests that she is somewhere in the middle of the Kinsey scale, not on either extreme, and her current identification as gay rather than bi may (possibly)be a temporary thing based on seeing things in binary terms and her having lots of *other* personal issues (y'know,like turning all balcck-eyed and evil) to work out at the moment. Come to think of it, in the context of the series, Willows's at almost the exact age when a certain friend of mine had gone from teenage crushes with boys to being a politically somewhat radical, neo-pagan/Wiccan, declared lesbian. She later decided she was bi, and ended up marrying a guy last summer. Not to say that that's any more likely than your experience to apply to Willow's case. Anyway, here's hoping we all (in the real world) figure out what we really want and have the courage to go for it, and not worry so much about the wants and needs of fictional characters. Josh & Co. have left things fuzzy enough with Willow that we are all free to interpret things however we want, and with the last show coming up Tuesday, anybody who wants to can work it out for themselves in fan fiction ad infinitum (or ad nauseum, as the case may be). ;-) Blessed be. > Where the difference is for me is orgasms. I never had 'em with men. > Orgasms aren't necessary for love, even as there are celibate marriages > with no sex at all necessary. Mind you, I didn't know that I didn't have > them until I had my first. I just figured the hype about real orgasms > was just hype. Willow may have done the same. > > I suspect the same is true for most men and women. > > If you want a clue about bisexuality, read "View From Another Closet". > > > --- > Bright Blessings, > > Starshadow KoX, Sp4, and now on a "cult critic's" hate page > http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/goon-squad-follies.html > for the High Crime of Disagreeing with self-made cult victim Gerry > Armstrong and Caroline Letkeman. > For the real truth about cults go to www.xenu.net > to email remove "lovesxenu"