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2003-03-02 16:54:59-07:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (slapfish <slapfish@yahoo.com>)


> Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last time the > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very interesting > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that Whedon > won't squander this opportunity. IMO Spikes redemption is far more interesting than Angels. Spike chose to regain his sould because he was in love. This means that even as a heartless, evil demon that he could make sacrifices for love. Angel on the other hand never make the choice to regain his soul. It was done to him as a punishment and for a long time he rejected it.

2003-03-02 16:54:59-07:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (slapfish <slapfish@yahoo.com>)


> Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last time the > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very interesting > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that Whedon > won't squander this opportunity. IMO Spikes redemption is far more interesting than Angels. Spike chose to regain his sould because he was in love. This means that even as a heartless, evil demon that he could make sacrifices for love. Angel on the other hand never make the choice to regain his soul. It was done to him as a punishment and for a long time he rejected it.

2003-03-02 17:12:01-06:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <20030302175457.22596.00000291@mb-fg.aol.com>, unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) wrote: > >From: rat rat@the.zoo > > > > > >>Unbound wrote: > > > >> I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things > >> out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic > >character > >> and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- > >> likely trying to save Buffy. > > > >*Become* tragic? When was he anything but? > > > > > > > True, but he's been on tragic overdrive the past couple of years in > particular in my opinion. :) > > > > > > > >SoulSpike(William) has taken on a lot of the personality traits of Spike > >and even retains the fake accent he adopted as Spike. I don't think the > >antipathy to Angel has survived the melding of personalities. The > >masochism remained, but he had to work himself back up to the love of > >the fight that was Spike's outlet for that masochism. > > > >The ME universe has a "heaven" and "hell", but Spike as he is right now > >is probably still doomed to a hell. I think if Spike redeems himself it > >will be so he can become human, die, and be reincarnated as human for > >another shot at the karma-go-round. > > > > > > > Which, if I'm not mistaken, is part of the prophecy that most of us assume > pertains only to Angel. Perhaps ME has other plans. Actually the prophecy was already fulfilled. Angel became human but rejected his humanity so he'd have the strength to continue the good fight and be there when Buffy needed him. It's just a little bit of irony that he didn't find out about the prophecy until he had already rejected it. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-03-02 17:12:01-06:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <20030302175457.22596.00000291@mb-fg.aol.com>, unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) wrote: > >From: rat rat@the.zoo > > > > > >>Unbound wrote: > > > >> I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things > >> out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic > >character > >> and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- > >> likely trying to save Buffy. > > > >*Become* tragic? When was he anything but? > > > > > > > True, but he's been on tragic overdrive the past couple of years in > particular in my opinion. :) > > > > > > > >SoulSpike(William) has taken on a lot of the personality traits of Spike > >and even retains the fake accent he adopted as Spike. I don't think the > >antipathy to Angel has survived the melding of personalities. The > >masochism remained, but he had to work himself back up to the love of > >the fight that was Spike's outlet for that masochism. > > > >The ME universe has a "heaven" and "hell", but Spike as he is right now > >is probably still doomed to a hell. I think if Spike redeems himself it > >will be so he can become human, die, and be reincarnated as human for > >another shot at the karma-go-round. > > > > > > > Which, if I'm not mistaken, is part of the prophecy that most of us assume > pertains only to Angel. Perhaps ME has other plans. Actually the prophecy was already fulfilled. Angel became human but rejected his humanity so he'd have the strength to continue the good fight and be there when Buffy needed him. It's just a little bit of irony that he didn't find out about the prophecy until he had already rejected it. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-03-02 17:58:44-06:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <v6566mgh12t74e@corp.supernews.com>, "slapfish" <slapfish@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last > time the > > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very > interesting > > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that > Whedon > > won't squander this opportunity. > > IMO Spikes redemption is far more interesting than Angels. Spike chose to > regain his sould because he was in love. This means that even as a > heartless, evil demon that he could make sacrifices for love. Angel on the > other hand never make the choice to regain his soul. It was done to him as > a punishment and for a long time he rejected it. But did demon Spike see it as a sacrifice, or was he so cocky that he thought he could handle it? SoulySpike even painfully lamented to Buffy about why didn't Angel warn him? It seems clear, IMHO, that Spike got more then he bargained for. He thought he could handle a soul, unlike nancy-boy Angel. He just saw it as a means to an end, a way to get the girl, not as any noble sacrifice. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-03-02 17:58:44-06:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <v6566mgh12t74e@corp.supernews.com>, "slapfish" <slapfish@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last > time the > > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very > interesting > > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that > Whedon > > won't squander this opportunity. > > IMO Spikes redemption is far more interesting than Angels. Spike chose to > regain his sould because he was in love. This means that even as a > heartless, evil demon that he could make sacrifices for love. Angel on the > other hand never make the choice to regain his soul. It was done to him as > a punishment and for a long time he rejected it. But did demon Spike see it as a sacrifice, or was he so cocky that he thought he could handle it? SoulySpike even painfully lamented to Buffy about why didn't Angel warn him? It seems clear, IMHO, that Spike got more then he bargained for. He thought he could handle a soul, unlike nancy-boy Angel. He just saw it as a means to an end, a way to get the girl, not as any noble sacrifice. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-03-02 17:59:20-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - ("Chris L." <chrisel@prodigy.net>)


Unbound I wrote: > Personally, although I like the character of Spike, I'm far more interested > in Angel's potential redemption than Spike's. That's what the show AtS is for, and it's a good story. But I really don't need to see Angel's brooding taking up the valuable last few eps at BtVS as well. I also don't see how Angel's redemption is furthered by whatever may happen if he crosses over onto BtVS. When you say "Angel's redemption" do you really mean "Angel & Buffy 4eva?" Because I doubt ME is going to have some big development in Angel's soul progress happen on BtVS. > One of the interesting aspects of Spike's possible attempt at redemption is > that I believe he has gotten his soul back for all the wrong reasons. This is a question that philosophers can't answer, and the people on this group certainly are never going to agree. But it's just seems so cold and wrong to me. "Why did you save that woman from the burning building?" "Because she's my wife and I love her." "Bzzzt... wrong reason!" It's one thing to say that a stranger should help another stranger just because it's the Right Thing To Do. But if the person you're trying to help is someone you love, does the Right Thing become the Wrong Thing because you love that person? And just how was Spike supposed to know the Right Thing To Do before he got a soul anyway (per ME's version of soul as moral compass)? Anyway, Spike seeking a soul out of love is a hell of a better reason than being cursed with one because you raped and killed a young girl. And since those are the only two souled vampires we know of, it's kind of the best reason we've been given so far. > I would like to see it hit home that he > continues to chase Angel's ghost and until he stops, his life will never be > complete. He doesn't need to be Angel to be the man he wants most to be, or the > man he believes Buffy wants him to be. He merely needs to be true to himself. Spike being true to himself includes being in love. ME has been telling us that from School Hard on. Remember the love's bitch speech? The episode Fool for Love? About how "his life will never be complete" ... well, Angel doesn't seem to have a chip on his shoulder about other vampires, and he's seemingly moved on from BuffyLove to CordyLove, and *his* life isn't complete, so why would Spike putting Angel or Buffy behind him make his life complete? One of the best lines this year re: Spike and his soul was his answer "in progress" to Wood's interrogation about how the soul thing was going. Angel and Spike are both works in progress; the fact that Spike understands that is pretty major considering he hasn't had 100 years to figure it out. > And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel > returns to the scene? > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last time the > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very interesting > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that Whedon > won't squander this opportunity. ... by trying to convince us that a girl's only true love is the guy she drooled over when she was 16, who coincidentally has moved on with his own life, is in love with another woman, and hasn't even bothered to make contact in two years. Gag. -- Chris "Evil used to lurk. Now it posts."

2003-03-02 17:59:20-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - ("Chris L." <chrisel@prodigy.net>)


Unbound I wrote: > Personally, although I like the character of Spike, I'm far more interested > in Angel's potential redemption than Spike's. That's what the show AtS is for, and it's a good story. But I really don't need to see Angel's brooding taking up the valuable last few eps at BtVS as well. I also don't see how Angel's redemption is furthered by whatever may happen if he crosses over onto BtVS. When you say "Angel's redemption" do you really mean "Angel & Buffy 4eva?" Because I doubt ME is going to have some big development in Angel's soul progress happen on BtVS. > One of the interesting aspects of Spike's possible attempt at redemption is > that I believe he has gotten his soul back for all the wrong reasons. This is a question that philosophers can't answer, and the people on this group certainly are never going to agree. But it's just seems so cold and wrong to me. "Why did you save that woman from the burning building?" "Because she's my wife and I love her." "Bzzzt... wrong reason!" It's one thing to say that a stranger should help another stranger just because it's the Right Thing To Do. But if the person you're trying to help is someone you love, does the Right Thing become the Wrong Thing because you love that person? And just how was Spike supposed to know the Right Thing To Do before he got a soul anyway (per ME's version of soul as moral compass)? Anyway, Spike seeking a soul out of love is a hell of a better reason than being cursed with one because you raped and killed a young girl. And since those are the only two souled vampires we know of, it's kind of the best reason we've been given so far. > I would like to see it hit home that he > continues to chase Angel's ghost and until he stops, his life will never be > complete. He doesn't need to be Angel to be the man he wants most to be, or the > man he believes Buffy wants him to be. He merely needs to be true to himself. Spike being true to himself includes being in love. ME has been telling us that from School Hard on. Remember the love's bitch speech? The episode Fool for Love? About how "his life will never be complete" ... well, Angel doesn't seem to have a chip on his shoulder about other vampires, and he's seemingly moved on from BuffyLove to CordyLove, and *his* life isn't complete, so why would Spike putting Angel or Buffy behind him make his life complete? One of the best lines this year re: Spike and his soul was his answer "in progress" to Wood's interrogation about how the soul thing was going. Angel and Spike are both works in progress; the fact that Spike understands that is pretty major considering he hasn't had 100 years to figure it out. > And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel > returns to the scene? > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last time the > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very interesting > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that Whedon > won't squander this opportunity. ... by trying to convince us that a girl's only true love is the guy she drooled over when she was 16, who coincidentally has moved on with his own life, is in love with another woman, and hasn't even bothered to make contact in two years. Gag. -- Chris "Evil used to lurk. Now it posts."

2003-03-02 19:59:13+00:00 - Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


Two vampires with a soul, one cursed, the other self-inflicted. Is there redemption for both of them? Which story is more interesting? Does one of them deserve redemption whereas the other does not? Personally, although I like the character of Spike, I'm far more interested in Angel's potential redemption than Spike's. When I see Spike, I see him having a big fat Angel chip on his shoulder. He had it when Angelus was around in Season 2 of "Buffy," he had it long before then and I think he has it to this day. Why did he get his soul back? Because he believed it's what Buffy wanted. And why would he believe that? Because of her undying devotion (she spelled that out in no uncertain terms this season) to another vampire with a soul -- Angel. Spike's not blind. In fact, he's often had a much better read on the Buffy-Angel relationship than the two of them combined. It's one of his many gifts – and charms. One of the interesting aspects of Spike's possible attempt at redemption is that I believe he has gotten his soul back for all the wrong reasons. And once again I believe that, perhaps only sub-consciously, it is a reflection of Angel inferiority complex. Spike has always wanted to best Angel in every conceivable way. And at almost every turn, he has failed to do so. This is merely his latest attempt. It would actually be nice if Spike had this moment of self-realization at some point. I would like to see it hit home that he continues to chase Angel's ghost and until he stops, his life will never be complete. He doesn't need to be Angel to be the man he wants most to be, or the man he believes Buffy wants him to be. He merely needs to be true to himself. And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel returns to the scene? Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last time the three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that Whedon won't squander this opportunity. Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-02 19:59:13+00:00 - Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


Two vampires with a soul, one cursed, the other self-inflicted. Is there redemption for both of them? Which story is more interesting? Does one of them deserve redemption whereas the other does not? Personally, although I like the character of Spike, I'm far more interested in Angel's potential redemption than Spike's. When I see Spike, I see him having a big fat Angel chip on his shoulder. He had it when Angelus was around in Season 2 of "Buffy," he had it long before then and I think he has it to this day. Why did he get his soul back? Because he believed it's what Buffy wanted. And why would he believe that? Because of her undying devotion (she spelled that out in no uncertain terms this season) to another vampire with a soul -- Angel. Spike's not blind. In fact, he's often had a much better read on the Buffy-Angel relationship than the two of them combined. It's one of his many gifts – and charms. One of the interesting aspects of Spike's possible attempt at redemption is that I believe he has gotten his soul back for all the wrong reasons. And once again I believe that, perhaps only sub-consciously, it is a reflection of Angel inferiority complex. Spike has always wanted to best Angel in every conceivable way. And at almost every turn, he has failed to do so. This is merely his latest attempt. It would actually be nice if Spike had this moment of self-realization at some point. I would like to see it hit home that he continues to chase Angel's ghost and until he stops, his life will never be complete. He doesn't need to be Angel to be the man he wants most to be, or the man he believes Buffy wants him to be. He merely needs to be true to himself. And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel returns to the scene? Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last time the three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that Whedon won't squander this opportunity. Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-02 22:09:40+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Egad. Must the Angel Importance Field extends its reach to Spike? Spike has been on BtVS for the past four (4) (IV) seasons. For the past four (4) (IV) seasons Angel has not. BtVS is not Angel's show. It is Buffy's show and for four years, and has been secondarily Xander's, Willow's, and Spike's show. It is no longer Angel's show at all. He has his own show. It's named after him. It's called "Angel." Isn't that enough? Let Angel be the center of Angel's world. For Angel to come trotting back after four years as a Mary Sue, helping other characters reach earth-shattering personal revelations and changing the Scoobies' lives would be ludicrous. Is BtVS sending Xander over to "Angel" to help, say, Cordelia understand herself in ways that everyone else has failed to do after three 1/2 years? If Spike isn't his own man, and is still Buffy (or, as in Unbound's opinion, Angel's) bitch by the finale, there is no hope for him. I doubt there is a damn thing Angel can do. PS, yes of course Spike got his soul for the wrong reasons. As an evil, soulless vampire he was incapable of doing anything for the right reasons. Geez, am I the only one who reads ME's interviews? Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-02 22:09:40+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Egad. Must the Angel Importance Field extends its reach to Spike? Spike has been on BtVS for the past four (4) (IV) seasons. For the past four (4) (IV) seasons Angel has not. BtVS is not Angel's show. It is Buffy's show and for four years, and has been secondarily Xander's, Willow's, and Spike's show. It is no longer Angel's show at all. He has his own show. It's named after him. It's called "Angel." Isn't that enough? Let Angel be the center of Angel's world. For Angel to come trotting back after four years as a Mary Sue, helping other characters reach earth-shattering personal revelations and changing the Scoobies' lives would be ludicrous. Is BtVS sending Xander over to "Angel" to help, say, Cordelia understand herself in ways that everyone else has failed to do after three 1/2 years? If Spike isn't his own man, and is still Buffy (or, as in Unbound's opinion, Angel's) bitch by the finale, there is no hope for him. I doubt there is a damn thing Angel can do. PS, yes of course Spike got his soul for the wrong reasons. As an evil, soulless vampire he was incapable of doing anything for the right reasons. Geez, am I the only one who reads ME's interviews? Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-02 22:17:17-06:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <MPG.18cc93a1e8754e2e9897f3@news.earthlink.net>, buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote: > In article <a-59506A.17120102032003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, a@a.edu says... > > In article <20030302175457.22596.00000291@mb-fg.aol.com>, > > unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) wrote: > > > > > >From: rat rat@the.zoo > > > > > > > > > > > >>Unbound wrote: > > > > > > > >> I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays > > > >> things > > > >> out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic > > > >character > > > >> and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the > > > >> finale -- > > > >> likely trying to save Buffy. > > > > > > > >*Become* tragic? When was he anything but? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, but he's been on tragic overdrive the past couple of years in > > > particular in my opinion. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >SoulSpike(William) has taken on a lot of the personality traits of Spike > > > >and even retains the fake accent he adopted as Spike. I don't think the > > > >antipathy to Angel has survived the melding of personalities. The > > > >masochism remained, but he had to work himself back up to the love of > > > >the fight that was Spike's outlet for that masochism. > > > > > > > >The ME universe has a "heaven" and "hell", but Spike as he is right now > > > >is probably still doomed to a hell. I think if Spike redeems himself it > > > >will be so he can become human, die, and be reincarnated as human for > > > >another shot at the karma-go-round. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which, if I'm not mistaken, is part of the prophecy that most of us > > > assume > > > pertains only to Angel. Perhaps ME has other plans. > > > > Actually the prophecy was already fulfilled. Angel became human but > > rejected his humanity so he'd have the strength to continue the good > > fight and be there when Buffy needed him. It's just a little bit of > > irony that he didn't find out about the prophecy until he had already > > rejected it. > > > ---- > I need a refresher: When did Angel become human? I mean physically and > not methaphorically (since I consider him human spiritually since he > has a soul. Spike too). I recall him smashing the ring that would had > made him nigh invulnerable but I have clean forgotten about him > turning down a chance to become mortal again. First season, episode #8 "I Will Remember you". Buffy comes to LA and she and Angel kill a Mohra demon. Some of the demon's blood mixes with Angel's from a cut on his hand and he becomes human. It's "veins run with the blood of eternity" and have "regenerative properties" to quote the show. Anyway.... Angel comes to realize that as a normal human being he can't be there for Buffy, that he won't be able to protect her when the end comes unless he's a vampire. Therefore he begs the Powers That Be to fold back time so he never became human in the first place - the price being that he is the only person who remembers the day he and Buffy spent together while human. A pretty dumb episode since it implies that all Angel (or Spike) has to do to become human again is find another Mohra demon and drain it of its blood. Is the mother of your child an evil vampire babe? Just a few drops of Mohra blood and she'll be baking apple pies in no time. Is your true love dead and buried in a public park? Just soak her corpse in Mohra blood to put that spring back into her step! Is your former girlfriend screwing your former, undead bestfriend? Just spike his tea with a little Mohra blood and he'll a normal (and boring) human in no time! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-03-02 22:17:17-06:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Darwin Fish <a@a.edu>)


In article <MPG.18cc93a1e8754e2e9897f3@news.earthlink.net>, buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote: > In article <a-59506A.17120102032003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, a@a.edu says... > > In article <20030302175457.22596.00000291@mb-fg.aol.com>, > > unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) wrote: > > > > > >From: rat rat@the.zoo > > > > > > > > > > > >>Unbound wrote: > > > > > > > >> I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays > > > >> things > > > >> out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic > > > >character > > > >> and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the > > > >> finale -- > > > >> likely trying to save Buffy. > > > > > > > >*Become* tragic? When was he anything but? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, but he's been on tragic overdrive the past couple of years in > > > particular in my opinion. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >SoulSpike(William) has taken on a lot of the personality traits of Spike > > > >and even retains the fake accent he adopted as Spike. I don't think the > > > >antipathy to Angel has survived the melding of personalities. The > > > >masochism remained, but he had to work himself back up to the love of > > > >the fight that was Spike's outlet for that masochism. > > > > > > > >The ME universe has a "heaven" and "hell", but Spike as he is right now > > > >is probably still doomed to a hell. I think if Spike redeems himself it > > > >will be so he can become human, die, and be reincarnated as human for > > > >another shot at the karma-go-round. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which, if I'm not mistaken, is part of the prophecy that most of us > > > assume > > > pertains only to Angel. Perhaps ME has other plans. > > > > Actually the prophecy was already fulfilled. Angel became human but > > rejected his humanity so he'd have the strength to continue the good > > fight and be there when Buffy needed him. It's just a little bit of > > irony that he didn't find out about the prophecy until he had already > > rejected it. > > > ---- > I need a refresher: When did Angel become human? I mean physically and > not methaphorically (since I consider him human spiritually since he > has a soul. Spike too). I recall him smashing the ring that would had > made him nigh invulnerable but I have clean forgotten about him > turning down a chance to become mortal again. First season, episode #8 "I Will Remember you". Buffy comes to LA and she and Angel kill a Mohra demon. Some of the demon's blood mixes with Angel's from a cut on his hand and he becomes human. It's "veins run with the blood of eternity" and have "regenerative properties" to quote the show. Anyway.... Angel comes to realize that as a normal human being he can't be there for Buffy, that he won't be able to protect her when the end comes unless he's a vampire. Therefore he begs the Powers That Be to fold back time so he never became human in the first place - the price being that he is the only person who remembers the day he and Buffy spent together while human. A pretty dumb episode since it implies that all Angel (or Spike) has to do to become human again is find another Mohra demon and drain it of its blood. Is the mother of your child an evil vampire babe? Just a few drops of Mohra blood and she'll be baking apple pies in no time. Is your true love dead and buried in a public park? Just soak her corpse in Mohra blood to put that spring back into her step! Is your former girlfriend screwing your former, undead bestfriend? Just spike his tea with a little Mohra blood and he'll a normal (and boring) human in no time! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the Darwin Fishes swim! www.darwin-fish.com/fish.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003-03-02 22:23:04+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > > >Unbound wrote: > >> And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel >>returns to the scene? > >Egad. Must the Angel Importance Field extends its reach to Spike? > > > In this particular instance, I think it's pretty unavoidable -- especially with Angel returning for the "Buffy" finale. > > > >Spike has been on BtVS for the past four (4) (IV) seasons. For the past four >(4) (IV) seasons Angel has not. BtVS is not Angel's show. It is Buffy's >show >and for four years, and has been secondarily Xander's, Willow's, and Spike's >show. It is no longer Angel's show at all. He has his own show. It's named >after him. It's called "Angel." Isn't that enough? > > > Of course. But you are aware of the incredible similarities between Spike and Angel, are you not? You are aware of the fact Angel is returning for the "Buffy" series finale, are you not? If ME is going to take the time to construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous character in numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make use of everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a (hopefully) satisfying conclusion. > > > >Let Angel be the center of Angel's world. For Angel to come trotting back >after four years as a Mary Sue, helping other characters reach >earth-shattering >personal revelations and changing the Scoobies' lives would be ludicrous. Is >BtVS sending Xander over to "Angel" to help, say, Cordelia understand herself >in ways that everyone else has failed to do after three 1/2 years? > > > So what exactly do you propose we see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? You want him to just show up, throw a few punches, wave to everyone and then take off? Maybe that works for you, but I'd much rather see the character utilized in an effective way that furthers the stories and characterizations we've already been given. And to assume Angel's return won't impact Spike and Buffy and their relationship in *some* way is a tad bit naive in my opinion. > > > >If Spike isn't his own man, and is still Buffy (or, as in Unbound's opinion, >Angel's) bitch by the finale, there is no hope for him. I doubt there is a >damn thing Angel can do. > > > I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic character and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- likely trying to save Buffy. I'm not saying that's what I want to see, but it certainly fits thematically. > > > >PS, yes of course Spike got his soul for the wrong reasons. As an evil, >soulless vampire he was incapable of doing anything for the right reasons. >Geez, am I the only one who reads ME's interviews? > > > If you are, will you win a prize? <g> Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-02 22:23:04+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > > >Unbound wrote: > >> And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel >>returns to the scene? > >Egad. Must the Angel Importance Field extends its reach to Spike? > > > In this particular instance, I think it's pretty unavoidable -- especially with Angel returning for the "Buffy" finale. > > > >Spike has been on BtVS for the past four (4) (IV) seasons. For the past four >(4) (IV) seasons Angel has not. BtVS is not Angel's show. It is Buffy's >show >and for four years, and has been secondarily Xander's, Willow's, and Spike's >show. It is no longer Angel's show at all. He has his own show. It's named >after him. It's called "Angel." Isn't that enough? > > > Of course. But you are aware of the incredible similarities between Spike and Angel, are you not? You are aware of the fact Angel is returning for the "Buffy" series finale, are you not? If ME is going to take the time to construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous character in numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make use of everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a (hopefully) satisfying conclusion. > > > >Let Angel be the center of Angel's world. For Angel to come trotting back >after four years as a Mary Sue, helping other characters reach >earth-shattering >personal revelations and changing the Scoobies' lives would be ludicrous. Is >BtVS sending Xander over to "Angel" to help, say, Cordelia understand herself >in ways that everyone else has failed to do after three 1/2 years? > > > So what exactly do you propose we see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? You want him to just show up, throw a few punches, wave to everyone and then take off? Maybe that works for you, but I'd much rather see the character utilized in an effective way that furthers the stories and characterizations we've already been given. And to assume Angel's return won't impact Spike and Buffy and their relationship in *some* way is a tad bit naive in my opinion. > > > >If Spike isn't his own man, and is still Buffy (or, as in Unbound's opinion, >Angel's) bitch by the finale, there is no hope for him. I doubt there is a >damn thing Angel can do. > > > I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic character and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- likely trying to save Buffy. I'm not saying that's what I want to see, but it certainly fits thematically. > > > >PS, yes of course Spike got his soul for the wrong reasons. As an evil, >soulless vampire he was incapable of doing anything for the right reasons. >Geez, am I the only one who reads ME's interviews? > > > If you are, will you win a prize? <g> Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-02 22:39:06+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >From: unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) >Date: 3/2/2003 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <20030302172304.20658.00000062@mb-mm.aol.com> > >>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) >> >> >>Unbound wrote: >> >>> And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel >>>returns to the scene? >> >>Egad. Must the Angel Importance Field extends its reach to Spike? >> >> >> > In this particular instance, I think it's pretty unavoidable -- especially >with Angel returning for the "Buffy" finale. >> It's avoidable. Angel has guest starred before on Buffy without being the Mary Sue who solves longterm personal problems no one else could. He can contribute his knowledge, help with the Big Fight, and even rekindle his romance with Buffy without being made to look like The Most Important BtVS Character Ever. >> >> >>Spike has been on BtVS for the past four (4) (IV) seasons. For the past >four >>(4) (IV) seasons Angel has not. BtVS is not Angel's show. It is Buffy's >>show >>and for four years, and has been secondarily Xander's, Willow's, and Spike's >>show. It is no longer Angel's show at all. He has his own show. It's >named >>after him. It's called "Angel." Isn't that enough? >> >> >> > Of course. But you are aware of the incredible similarities between Spike >and Angel, are you not? I don't think they are incredibly similar, no. One reason they clashed was that they were so different. >You are aware of the fact Angel is returning for the >"Buffy" series finale, are you not? Yes. That doesn't mean that at that point Spike is destined to suddenly realize that his whole vampire existence has been about Angel, and now that he's seen Angel's face again and heard his pearls of wisdom, at last he can be happy and free. >If ME is going to take the time to >construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous character >in >numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for >storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make use >of >everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a >(hopefully) >satisfying conclusion. >> For Spike's story to be that he was all about Angel all this time would be so pathetic as to be incredibly unsatisfying. Please, ME, kill Spike off rather than do that. Let him go out with some dignity. >>Let Angel be the center of Angel's world. For Angel to come trotting back >>after four years as a Mary Sue, helping other characters reach >>earth-shattering >>personal revelations and changing the Scoobies' lives would be ludicrous. >Is >>BtVS sending Xander over to "Angel" to help, say, Cordelia understand >herself >>in ways that everyone else has failed to do after three 1/2 years? >> >> >> > So what exactly do you propose we >see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? I'd prefer he not come back at all to tell the truth, but since he is coming back, he can be part of the team and help out. And work out his long term Buffy issues. And they will probably rekindle their love, etc. But do I want him to be a Mary Sue to the other regulars? (The Mary Sue is the character in a story who enters after not having been there at all or for ages, and is able to solve everyone's problems.) >You >want him to just show up, throw a few punches, wave to everyone and then take >off? Maybe that works for you, but I'd much rather see the character utilized >in an effective way that furthers the stories and characterizations we've >already been given. I'd rather Angel not take over BtVS in its last hour. I'd rather David Boreanaz not, in the finale, become once again the "male star" of a show where James Marsters has been busting his ass off for the last four years, and Nick Brendon has been busting HIS ass off for the last six and a half years. Boreanaz is the male star of Angel. Let one of the BtVS cast be the male star of BtVS. That can be either Brendon or Marsters. They've earned it. Nothing against David Boreanaz, he's worked very hard on his own show, but that's just the point, he has his own show. He should have only a small role in the BtVS finale. The BtVS finale should be about the BtVS characters, not Angel. > And to assume Angel's return won't impact Spike and Buffy and their >relationship in *some* way is a tad bit naive in my opinion. >> What relationship? Spike and Buffy aren't in a relationship and probably never will be. The closest thing Buffy has to a boyfriend right now is Robin Wood, and who knows if that will change by the finale. (Yes, I know all about Ep 17, but Ep 18 makes me think that it's too soon to nail the Wuffy coffin shut.) I'm sure Buffy will end up with Angel in the finale. That's not my point. My point is that for Spike to find out that his whole existence has centered around Angel-envy would be just too "Angel is the Center of the Universe" for words. >> >> >>If Spike isn't his own man, and is still Buffy (or, as in Unbound's opinion, >>Angel's) bitch by the finale, there is no hope for him. I doubt there is a >>damn thing Angel can do. >> >> >> > I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things >out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic character >and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- >likely trying to save Buffy. But why would he do that? If his whole blessed existence has been about Angel, he should die to save Angel, because after all, it's all about Angel. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-02 22:39:06+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >From: unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) >Date: 3/2/2003 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <20030302172304.20658.00000062@mb-mm.aol.com> > >>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) >> >> >>Unbound wrote: >> >>> And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel >>>returns to the scene? >> >>Egad. Must the Angel Importance Field extends its reach to Spike? >> >> >> > In this particular instance, I think it's pretty unavoidable -- especially >with Angel returning for the "Buffy" finale. >> It's avoidable. Angel has guest starred before on Buffy without being the Mary Sue who solves longterm personal problems no one else could. He can contribute his knowledge, help with the Big Fight, and even rekindle his romance with Buffy without being made to look like The Most Important BtVS Character Ever. >> >> >>Spike has been on BtVS for the past four (4) (IV) seasons. For the past >four >>(4) (IV) seasons Angel has not. BtVS is not Angel's show. It is Buffy's >>show >>and for four years, and has been secondarily Xander's, Willow's, and Spike's >>show. It is no longer Angel's show at all. He has his own show. It's >named >>after him. It's called "Angel." Isn't that enough? >> >> >> > Of course. But you are aware of the incredible similarities between Spike >and Angel, are you not? I don't think they are incredibly similar, no. One reason they clashed was that they were so different. >You are aware of the fact Angel is returning for the >"Buffy" series finale, are you not? Yes. That doesn't mean that at that point Spike is destined to suddenly realize that his whole vampire existence has been about Angel, and now that he's seen Angel's face again and heard his pearls of wisdom, at last he can be happy and free. >If ME is going to take the time to >construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous character >in >numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for >storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make use >of >everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a >(hopefully) >satisfying conclusion. >> For Spike's story to be that he was all about Angel all this time would be so pathetic as to be incredibly unsatisfying. Please, ME, kill Spike off rather than do that. Let him go out with some dignity. >>Let Angel be the center of Angel's world. For Angel to come trotting back >>after four years as a Mary Sue, helping other characters reach >>earth-shattering >>personal revelations and changing the Scoobies' lives would be ludicrous. >Is >>BtVS sending Xander over to "Angel" to help, say, Cordelia understand >herself >>in ways that everyone else has failed to do after three 1/2 years? >> >> >> > So what exactly do you propose we >see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? I'd prefer he not come back at all to tell the truth, but since he is coming back, he can be part of the team and help out. And work out his long term Buffy issues. And they will probably rekindle their love, etc. But do I want him to be a Mary Sue to the other regulars? (The Mary Sue is the character in a story who enters after not having been there at all or for ages, and is able to solve everyone's problems.) >You >want him to just show up, throw a few punches, wave to everyone and then take >off? Maybe that works for you, but I'd much rather see the character utilized >in an effective way that furthers the stories and characterizations we've >already been given. I'd rather Angel not take over BtVS in its last hour. I'd rather David Boreanaz not, in the finale, become once again the "male star" of a show where James Marsters has been busting his ass off for the last four years, and Nick Brendon has been busting HIS ass off for the last six and a half years. Boreanaz is the male star of Angel. Let one of the BtVS cast be the male star of BtVS. That can be either Brendon or Marsters. They've earned it. Nothing against David Boreanaz, he's worked very hard on his own show, but that's just the point, he has his own show. He should have only a small role in the BtVS finale. The BtVS finale should be about the BtVS characters, not Angel. > And to assume Angel's return won't impact Spike and Buffy and their >relationship in *some* way is a tad bit naive in my opinion. >> What relationship? Spike and Buffy aren't in a relationship and probably never will be. The closest thing Buffy has to a boyfriend right now is Robin Wood, and who knows if that will change by the finale. (Yes, I know all about Ep 17, but Ep 18 makes me think that it's too soon to nail the Wuffy coffin shut.) I'm sure Buffy will end up with Angel in the finale. That's not my point. My point is that for Spike to find out that his whole existence has centered around Angel-envy would be just too "Angel is the Center of the Universe" for words. >> >> >>If Spike isn't his own man, and is still Buffy (or, as in Unbound's opinion, >>Angel's) bitch by the finale, there is no hope for him. I doubt there is a >>damn thing Angel can do. >> >> >> > I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things >out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic character >and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- >likely trying to save Buffy. But why would he do that? If his whole blessed existence has been about Angel, he should die to save Angel, because after all, it's all about Angel. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-02 22:47:35+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (rat <rat@the.zoo>)


>Unbound wrote: > I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things > out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic character > and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- > likely trying to save Buffy. *Become* tragic? When was he anything but? SoulSpike(William) has taken on a lot of the personality traits of Spike and even retains the fake accent he adopted as Spike. I don't think the antipathy to Angel has survived the melding of personalities. The masochism remained, but he had to work himself back up to the love of the fight that was Spike's outlet for that masochism. The ME universe has a "heaven" and "hell", but Spike as he is right now is probably still doomed to a hell. I think if Spike redeems himself it will be so he can become human, die, and be reincarnated as human for another shot at the karma-go-round.

2003-03-02 22:47:35+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (rat <rat@the.zoo>)


>Unbound wrote: > I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things > out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic character > and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- > likely trying to save Buffy. *Become* tragic? When was he anything but? SoulSpike(William) has taken on a lot of the personality traits of Spike and even retains the fake accent he adopted as Spike. I don't think the antipathy to Angel has survived the melding of personalities. The masochism remained, but he had to work himself back up to the love of the fight that was Spike's outlet for that masochism. The ME universe has a "heaven" and "hell", but Spike as he is right now is probably still doomed to a hell. I think if Spike redeems himself it will be so he can become human, die, and be reincarnated as human for another shot at the karma-go-round.

2003-03-02 22:52:57+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > > >>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >>From: unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) >>Date: 3/2/2003 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time > >> In this particular instance, I think it's pretty unavoidable -- >especially >>with Angel returning for the "Buffy" finale. >>> > >It's avoidable. Angel has guest starred before on Buffy without being the >Mary >Sue who solves longterm personal problems no one else could. He can >contribute >his knowledge, help with the Big Fight, and even rekindle his romance with >Buffy without being made to look like The Most Important BtVS Character Ever. > > > I think you misunderstand what it is I'm hoping to see. I don't consider him to be what you described. But I think it would be an incredible waste of his presence if he didn't impact Buffy and Spike in particular in some significant way. He certainly has in the past, no reason to think he shouldn't once again. > > > >> Of course. But you are aware of the incredible similarities between Spike >>and Angel, are you not? > >I don't think they are incredibly similar, no. One reason they clashed was >that they were so different. > > > I don't mean the characters, I mean the paths they've been on -- especially lately for Spike. The parallels with Angel are pretty difficult to ignore. Even Spike appears conscious of it. > > > >>You are aware of the fact Angel is returning for the >>"Buffy" series finale, are you not? > >Yes. That doesn't mean that at that point Spike is destined to suddenly >realize that his whole vampire existence has been about Angel, and now that >he's seen Angel's face again and heard his pearls of wisdom, at last he can >be >happy and free. > > > That isn't what I'm suggesting. <g> But I think there are some distinct parallels between the two characters and I think Spike has always had Angel issues. And with Spike having grown so much closer to Buffy then the last time Angel was around, I see no reason why all of that shouldn't be explored one last time. > > > >>If ME is going to take the time to >>construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous character >>in >>numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for >>storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make use >>of >>everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a >>(hopefully) >>satisfying conclusion. >>> > >For Spike's story to be that he was all about Angel all this time would be so >pathetic as to be incredibly unsatisfying. Please, ME, kill Spike off >rather >than do that. Let him go out with some dignity. > > > I'm not saying it was all about Angel, but I think Spike clearly has Angel issues. Always has. Again, to ignore all that with Angel returning doesn't make any sense to me. > > > >> So what exactly do you propose we >see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? > >I'd prefer he not come back at all to tell the truth, but since he is coming >back, he can be part of the team and help out. And work out his long term >Buffy issues. And they will probably rekindle their love, etc. But do I want >him to be a Mary Sue to the other regulars? (The Mary Sue is the character >in >a story who enters after not having been there at all or for ages, and is >able >to solve everyone's problems.) > > > I don't think he can solve everyone's problems, but I certainly believe his re-appearance could, and more importantly *should,* serve as a dramatic catalyst -- especially for Buffy and Spike in particular given their relationships with him. > > > >>You >>want him to just show up, throw a few punches, wave to everyone and then >take >>off? Maybe that works for you, but I'd much rather see the character >utilized >>in an effective way that furthers the stories and characterizations we've >>already been given. > >I'd rather Angel not take over BtVS in its last hour. I'd rather David >Boreanaz not, in the finale, become once again the "male star" of a show >where >James Marsters has been busting his ass off for the last four years, and Nick >Brendon has been busting HIS ass off for the last six and a half years. >Boreanaz is the male star of Angel. Let one of the BtVS cast be the male >star >of BtVS. That can be either Brendon or Marsters. They've earned it. > > > I don't want Angel to be the center of attention either. Again, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. But I don't want him to come on over and just kind of be there. I gather you don't care much for Angel. Fair enough. But Buffy sure as hell still does and my guess is Whedon does as well. If Angel is going to return, I want to see his character put to good use. > > > >Nothing against David Boreanaz, he's worked very hard on his own show, but >that's just the point, he has his own show. He should have only a small role >in >the BtVS finale. The BtVS finale should be about the BtVS characters, not >Angel. > > > I agree. > > > >> And to assume Angel's return won't impact Spike and Buffy and their >>relationship in *some* way is a tad bit naive in my opinion. >>> > >What relationship? Spike and Buffy aren't in a relationship and probably >never will be. > > > Relationship doesn't necessarily equate to romance. They clearly have a relationship, as friends, co-workers in the big fight, whatever the heck you want to call it. They're involved with one another in a significant way even if they're no longer having sex. And for Angel not to be involved with that in *some* way when he returns would be extremely unsatisfying for me given his relationship to Buffy and Spike. > > > >The closest thing Buffy has to a boyfriend right now is Robin >Wood, and who knows if that will change by the finale. (Yes, I know all >about >Ep 17, but Ep 18 makes me think that it's too soon to nail the Wuffy coffin >shut.) I'm sure Buffy will end up with Angel in the finale. That's not my >point. My point is that for Spike to find out that his whole existence has >centered around Angel-envy would be just too "Angel is the Center of the >Universe" for words. > > > I'm not saying his whole existence has been a case of Angel envy, but it's a part of his makeup. Always has been. Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-02 22:52:57+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > > >>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >>From: unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) >>Date: 3/2/2003 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time > >> In this particular instance, I think it's pretty unavoidable -- >especially >>with Angel returning for the "Buffy" finale. >>> > >It's avoidable. Angel has guest starred before on Buffy without being the >Mary >Sue who solves longterm personal problems no one else could. He can >contribute >his knowledge, help with the Big Fight, and even rekindle his romance with >Buffy without being made to look like The Most Important BtVS Character Ever. > > > I think you misunderstand what it is I'm hoping to see. I don't consider him to be what you described. But I think it would be an incredible waste of his presence if he didn't impact Buffy and Spike in particular in some significant way. He certainly has in the past, no reason to think he shouldn't once again. > > > >> Of course. But you are aware of the incredible similarities between Spike >>and Angel, are you not? > >I don't think they are incredibly similar, no. One reason they clashed was >that they were so different. > > > I don't mean the characters, I mean the paths they've been on -- especially lately for Spike. The parallels with Angel are pretty difficult to ignore. Even Spike appears conscious of it. > > > >>You are aware of the fact Angel is returning for the >>"Buffy" series finale, are you not? > >Yes. That doesn't mean that at that point Spike is destined to suddenly >realize that his whole vampire existence has been about Angel, and now that >he's seen Angel's face again and heard his pearls of wisdom, at last he can >be >happy and free. > > > That isn't what I'm suggesting. <g> But I think there are some distinct parallels between the two characters and I think Spike has always had Angel issues. And with Spike having grown so much closer to Buffy then the last time Angel was around, I see no reason why all of that shouldn't be explored one last time. > > > >>If ME is going to take the time to >>construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous character >>in >>numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for >>storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make use >>of >>everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a >>(hopefully) >>satisfying conclusion. >>> > >For Spike's story to be that he was all about Angel all this time would be so >pathetic as to be incredibly unsatisfying. Please, ME, kill Spike off >rather >than do that. Let him go out with some dignity. > > > I'm not saying it was all about Angel, but I think Spike clearly has Angel issues. Always has. Again, to ignore all that with Angel returning doesn't make any sense to me. > > > >> So what exactly do you propose we >see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? > >I'd prefer he not come back at all to tell the truth, but since he is coming >back, he can be part of the team and help out. And work out his long term >Buffy issues. And they will probably rekindle their love, etc. But do I want >him to be a Mary Sue to the other regulars? (The Mary Sue is the character >in >a story who enters after not having been there at all or for ages, and is >able >to solve everyone's problems.) > > > I don't think he can solve everyone's problems, but I certainly believe his re-appearance could, and more importantly *should,* serve as a dramatic catalyst -- especially for Buffy and Spike in particular given their relationships with him. > > > >>You >>want him to just show up, throw a few punches, wave to everyone and then >take >>off? Maybe that works for you, but I'd much rather see the character >utilized >>in an effective way that furthers the stories and characterizations we've >>already been given. > >I'd rather Angel not take over BtVS in its last hour. I'd rather David >Boreanaz not, in the finale, become once again the "male star" of a show >where >James Marsters has been busting his ass off for the last four years, and Nick >Brendon has been busting HIS ass off for the last six and a half years. >Boreanaz is the male star of Angel. Let one of the BtVS cast be the male >star >of BtVS. That can be either Brendon or Marsters. They've earned it. > > > I don't want Angel to be the center of attention either. Again, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. But I don't want him to come on over and just kind of be there. I gather you don't care much for Angel. Fair enough. But Buffy sure as hell still does and my guess is Whedon does as well. If Angel is going to return, I want to see his character put to good use. > > > >Nothing against David Boreanaz, he's worked very hard on his own show, but >that's just the point, he has his own show. He should have only a small role >in >the BtVS finale. The BtVS finale should be about the BtVS characters, not >Angel. > > > I agree. > > > >> And to assume Angel's return won't impact Spike and Buffy and their >>relationship in *some* way is a tad bit naive in my opinion. >>> > >What relationship? Spike and Buffy aren't in a relationship and probably >never will be. > > > Relationship doesn't necessarily equate to romance. They clearly have a relationship, as friends, co-workers in the big fight, whatever the heck you want to call it. They're involved with one another in a significant way even if they're no longer having sex. And for Angel not to be involved with that in *some* way when he returns would be extremely unsatisfying for me given his relationship to Buffy and Spike. > > > >The closest thing Buffy has to a boyfriend right now is Robin >Wood, and who knows if that will change by the finale. (Yes, I know all >about >Ep 17, but Ep 18 makes me think that it's too soon to nail the Wuffy coffin >shut.) I'm sure Buffy will end up with Angel in the finale. That's not my >point. My point is that for Spike to find out that his whole existence has >centered around Angel-envy would be just too "Angel is the Center of the >Universe" for words. > > > I'm not saying his whole existence has been a case of Angel envy, but it's a part of his makeup. Always has been. Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-02 22:54:57+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: rat rat@the.zoo > > >>Unbound wrote: > >> I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things >> out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic >character >> and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- >> likely trying to save Buffy. > >*Become* tragic? When was he anything but? > > > True, but he's been on tragic overdrive the past couple of years in particular in my opinion. :) > > > >SoulSpike(William) has taken on a lot of the personality traits of Spike >and even retains the fake accent he adopted as Spike. I don't think the >antipathy to Angel has survived the melding of personalities. The >masochism remained, but he had to work himself back up to the love of >the fight that was Spike's outlet for that masochism. > >The ME universe has a "heaven" and "hell", but Spike as he is right now >is probably still doomed to a hell. I think if Spike redeems himself it >will be so he can become human, die, and be reincarnated as human for >another shot at the karma-go-round. > > > Which, if I'm not mistaken, is part of the prophecy that most of us assume pertains only to Angel. Perhaps ME has other plans. Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-02 22:54:57+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: rat rat@the.zoo > > >>Unbound wrote: > >> I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things >> out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic >character >> and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- >> likely trying to save Buffy. > >*Become* tragic? When was he anything but? > > > True, but he's been on tragic overdrive the past couple of years in particular in my opinion. :) > > > >SoulSpike(William) has taken on a lot of the personality traits of Spike >and even retains the fake accent he adopted as Spike. I don't think the >antipathy to Angel has survived the melding of personalities. The >masochism remained, but he had to work himself back up to the love of >the fight that was Spike's outlet for that masochism. > >The ME universe has a "heaven" and "hell", but Spike as he is right now >is probably still doomed to a hell. I think if Spike redeems himself it >will be so he can become human, die, and be reincarnated as human for >another shot at the karma-go-round. > > > Which, if I'm not mistaken, is part of the prophecy that most of us assume pertains only to Angel. Perhaps ME has other plans. Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-02 22:56:32+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (rat <rat@the.zoo>)


In article <20030302170940.22649.00000249@mb-ck.aol.com>, Rose wrote: [snip] > PS, yes of course Spike got his soul for the wrong reasons. As an evil, > soulless vampire he was incapable of doing anything for the right reasons. > Geez, am I the only one who reads ME's interviews? I always thought of the demon soul of Spike as being like Crawley in "Good Omens". Evil, but in a light-hearted, chilling, way. He believed that he was only doing what humans would do if they had the power.

2003-03-02 22:56:32+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (rat <rat@the.zoo>)


In article <20030302170940.22649.00000249@mb-ck.aol.com>, Rose wrote: [snip] > PS, yes of course Spike got his soul for the wrong reasons. As an evil, > soulless vampire he was incapable of doing anything for the right reasons. > Geez, am I the only one who reads ME's interviews? I always thought of the demon soul of Spike as being like Crawley in "Good Omens". Evil, but in a light-hearted, chilling, way. He believed that he was only doing what humans would do if they had the power.

2003-03-02 23:07:17+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: "Chris L." chrisel@prodigy.net > >Unbound I wrote: > >> Personally, although I like the character of Spike, I'm far more >interested >> in Angel's potential redemption than Spike's. > >That's what the show AtS is for, and it's a good story. But I really >don't need to see Angel's brooding taking up the valuable last few eps >at BtVS as well. > > > I don't want to see that either. > > > >I also don't see how Angel's redemption is furthered by whatever may >happen if he crosses over onto BtVS. When you say "Angel's redemption" >do you really mean "Angel & Buffy 4eva?" Because I doubt ME is going to >have some big development in Angel's soul progress happen on BtVS. > > > Nope that's not what I mean. And just so we're clear, I don't want to see the "Buffy" finale be a part of Angel's redemption. I agree, that's what his show is for. Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-02 23:07:17+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: "Chris L." chrisel@prodigy.net > >Unbound I wrote: > >> Personally, although I like the character of Spike, I'm far more >interested >> in Angel's potential redemption than Spike's. > >That's what the show AtS is for, and it's a good story. But I really >don't need to see Angel's brooding taking up the valuable last few eps >at BtVS as well. > > > I don't want to see that either. > > > >I also don't see how Angel's redemption is furthered by whatever may >happen if he crosses over onto BtVS. When you say "Angel's redemption" >do you really mean "Angel & Buffy 4eva?" Because I doubt ME is going to >have some big development in Angel's soul progress happen on BtVS. > > > Nope that's not what I mean. And just so we're clear, I don't want to see the "Buffy" finale be a part of Angel's redemption. I agree, that's what his show is for. Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-03 00:09:25+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: Darwin Fish a@a.edu > > >In article <v6566mgh12t74e@corp.supernews.com>, > "slapfish" <slapfish@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last >> time the >> > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very >> interesting >> > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that >> Whedon >> > won't squander this opportunity. >> >> IMO Spikes redemption is far more interesting than Angels. Spike chose to >> regain his sould because he was in love. This means that even as a >> heartless, evil demon that he could make sacrifices for love. Angel on the >> other hand never make the choice to regain his soul. It was done to him as >> a punishment and for a long time he rejected it. > >But did demon Spike see it as a sacrifice, or was he so cocky that he >thought he could handle it? SoulySpike even painfully lamented to Buffy >about why didn't Angel warn him? It seems clear, IMHO, that Spike got >more then he bargained for. He thought he could handle a soul, unlike >nancy-boy Angel. He just saw it as a means to an end, a way to get the >girl, not as any noble sacrifice. > > > That's how I've always viewed it. And once again, Spike believes that where Angel fails, he can succeed. You can't tell me this guy doesn't have some Angel issues he needs to work out. <g> Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-03 00:09:25+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: Darwin Fish a@a.edu > > >In article <v6566mgh12t74e@corp.supernews.com>, > "slapfish" <slapfish@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last >> time the >> > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very >> interesting >> > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that >> Whedon >> > won't squander this opportunity. >> >> IMO Spikes redemption is far more interesting than Angels. Spike chose to >> regain his sould because he was in love. This means that even as a >> heartless, evil demon that he could make sacrifices for love. Angel on the >> other hand never make the choice to regain his soul. It was done to him as >> a punishment and for a long time he rejected it. > >But did demon Spike see it as a sacrifice, or was he so cocky that he >thought he could handle it? SoulySpike even painfully lamented to Buffy >about why didn't Angel warn him? It seems clear, IMHO, that Spike got >more then he bargained for. He thought he could handle a soul, unlike >nancy-boy Angel. He just saw it as a means to an end, a way to get the >girl, not as any noble sacrifice. > > > That's how I've always viewed it. And once again, Spike believes that where Angel fails, he can succeed. You can't tell me this guy doesn't have some Angel issues he needs to work out. <g> Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-03 02:51:29+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030302173906.22649.00000251@mb-ck.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > >Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul > >From: unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) > >Date: 3/2/2003 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <20030302172304.20658.00000062@mb-mm.aol.com> > > > >>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > >> > >> > >>Unbound wrote: > >> > >>> And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel > >>>returns to the scene? > >> > >>Egad. Must the Angel Importance Field extends its reach to Spike? > >> > >> > >> > > In this particular instance, I think it's pretty unavoidable -- especially > >with Angel returning for the "Buffy" finale. > >> > > It's avoidable. Angel has guest starred before on Buffy without being the Mary > Sue who solves longterm personal problems no one else could. He can contribute > his knowledge, help with the Big Fight, and even rekindle his romance with > Buffy without being made to look like The Most Important BtVS Character Ever. ---- Since we don't have any idea exactly as what Angel's role will be in the reunion it is a bit early to run him down yet. > >> > >>Spike has been on BtVS for the past four (4) (IV) seasons. For the past > >four > >>(4) (IV) seasons Angel has not. BtVS is not Angel's show. It is Buffy's > >>show > >>and for four years, and has been secondarily Xander's, Willow's, and Spike's > >>show. It is no longer Angel's show at all. He has his own show. It's > >named > >>after him. It's called "Angel." Isn't that enough? > >> > >> > >> > > Of course. But you are aware of the incredible similarities between Spike > >and Angel, are you not? > > I don't think they are incredibly similar, no. One reason they clashed was > that they were so different. ---- Here I agree with you. They also have been quite competitive. > > >You are aware of the fact Angel is returning for the > >"Buffy" series finale, are you not? > > Yes. That doesn't mean that at that point Spike is destined to suddenly > realize that his whole vampire existence has been about Angel, and now that > he's seen Angel's face again and heard his pearls of wisdom, at last he can be > happy and free. --- I don't think that is going to happen. I do think the idea he got his soul at least in part because of Angel is correct, so he is a role model of sorts. > > >If ME is going to take the time to > >construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous character > >in > >numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for > >storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make use > >of > >everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a > >(hopefully) > >satisfying conclusion. > >> > > For Spike's story to be that he was all about Angel all this time would be so > pathetic as to be incredibly unsatisfying. Please, ME, kill Spike off rather > than do that. Let him go out with some dignity. ---- It was partly about Angel, I am sure the spector of Angel was always hovering in the background especially at the end and he got his soul. It is only natural that one compares one's self to a former rival if you are dating that former rival's love intrest. > > >>Let Angel be the center of Angel's world. For Angel to come trotting back > >>after four years as a Mary Sue, helping other characters reach > >>earth-shattering > >>personal revelations and changing the Scoobies' lives would be ludicrous. > >Is > >>BtVS sending Xander over to "Angel" to help, say, Cordelia understand > >herself > >>in ways that everyone else has failed to do after three 1/2 years? > >> > >> > >> > > So what exactly do you propose we >see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? > > I'd prefer he not come back at all to tell the truth,.... --- That's is telling fact..... > > ....but since he is coming back, he can be part of the team and help out. > And work out his long term Buffy issues. And they will probably rekindle > their love, etc. But do I want him to be a Mary Sue to the other regulars? > (The Mary Sue is the character in a story who enters after not having been > there at all or for ages, and is able to solve everyone's problems.) ---- I don't think it will enter his mind to even try. > > >You > >want him to just show up, throw a few punches, wave to everyone and then take > >off? Maybe that works for you, but I'd much rather see the character utilized > >in an effective way that furthers the stories and characterizations we've > >already been given. > > I'd rather Angel not take over BtVS in its last hour. I'd rather David > Boreanaz not, in the finale, become once again the "male star" of a show where > James Marsters has been busting his ass off for the last four years, and Nick > Brendon has been busting HIS ass off for the last six and a half years. > Boreanaz is the male star of Angel. Let one of the BtVS cast be the male star > of BtVS. That can be either Brendon or Marsters. They've earned it. ---- Not a matter of earning it. This is a grand romantic tale. The first love of each other being reunited. And JW said this was supposed to be the season we get back to the beginning. The first great love affair will be the last (assuming it will be rekindled). > > Nothing against David Boreanaz, he's worked very hard on his own show, but > that's just the point, he has his own show. He should have only a small role in > the BtVS finale. The BtVS finale should be about the BtVS characters, not > Angel. ---- You miss the point, they are ALL BtVS characters. He was one of the originals. Hell, he was there before Spike. > > > And to assume Angel's return won't impact Spike and Buffy and their > >relationship in *some* way is a tad bit naive in my opinion. > >> > > What relationship? Spike and Buffy aren't in a relationship and probably > never will be. The closest thing Buffy has to a boyfriend right now is Robin > Wood, and who knows if that will change by the finale. (Yes, I know all about > Ep 17, but Ep 18 makes me think that it's too soon to nail the Wuffy coffin > shut.) I'm sure Buffy will end up with Angel in the finale. That's not my > point. My point is that for Spike to find out that his whole existence has > centered around Angel-envy would be just too "Angel is the Center of the > Universe" for words. ----- Prepare for it none the less. I think there will be a great confrontation scene in the finale between Angel and Spike, with lots of relevations and clearing the air. > >> > >>If Spike isn't his own man, and is still Buffy (or, as in Unbound's opinion, > >>Angel's) bitch by the finale, there is no hope for him. I doubt there is a > >>damn thing Angel can do. > >> > > I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things > >out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic character > >and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- > >likely trying to save Buffy. > > But why would he do that? If his whole blessed existence has been about Angel, > he should die to save Angel, because after all, it's all about Angel. > > > Rose > It's not Giles, no, it's not > "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew > ----- Not his existance, but there has always been a competition there as I said before. It is fitting that if any confrontation occurs it will be over Buffy. As I said before several weeks ago, Angel is Buffy's first love and we know from when Angel mentioned Buffy's name while having his soul losing fantasy of being with Cordelia she is his. He is The Most Important BtVS Character Ever. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 02:51:29+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030302173906.22649.00000251@mb-ck.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > >Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul > >From: unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) > >Date: 3/2/2003 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <20030302172304.20658.00000062@mb-mm.aol.com> > > > >>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > >> > >> > >>Unbound wrote: > >> > >>> And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel > >>>returns to the scene? > >> > >>Egad. Must the Angel Importance Field extends its reach to Spike? > >> > >> > >> > > In this particular instance, I think it's pretty unavoidable -- especially > >with Angel returning for the "Buffy" finale. > >> > > It's avoidable. Angel has guest starred before on Buffy without being the Mary > Sue who solves longterm personal problems no one else could. He can contribute > his knowledge, help with the Big Fight, and even rekindle his romance with > Buffy without being made to look like The Most Important BtVS Character Ever. ---- Since we don't have any idea exactly as what Angel's role will be in the reunion it is a bit early to run him down yet. > >> > >>Spike has been on BtVS for the past four (4) (IV) seasons. For the past > >four > >>(4) (IV) seasons Angel has not. BtVS is not Angel's show. It is Buffy's > >>show > >>and for four years, and has been secondarily Xander's, Willow's, and Spike's > >>show. It is no longer Angel's show at all. He has his own show. It's > >named > >>after him. It's called "Angel." Isn't that enough? > >> > >> > >> > > Of course. But you are aware of the incredible similarities between Spike > >and Angel, are you not? > > I don't think they are incredibly similar, no. One reason they clashed was > that they were so different. ---- Here I agree with you. They also have been quite competitive. > > >You are aware of the fact Angel is returning for the > >"Buffy" series finale, are you not? > > Yes. That doesn't mean that at that point Spike is destined to suddenly > realize that his whole vampire existence has been about Angel, and now that > he's seen Angel's face again and heard his pearls of wisdom, at last he can be > happy and free. --- I don't think that is going to happen. I do think the idea he got his soul at least in part because of Angel is correct, so he is a role model of sorts. > > >If ME is going to take the time to > >construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous character > >in > >numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for > >storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make use > >of > >everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a > >(hopefully) > >satisfying conclusion. > >> > > For Spike's story to be that he was all about Angel all this time would be so > pathetic as to be incredibly unsatisfying. Please, ME, kill Spike off rather > than do that. Let him go out with some dignity. ---- It was partly about Angel, I am sure the spector of Angel was always hovering in the background especially at the end and he got his soul. It is only natural that one compares one's self to a former rival if you are dating that former rival's love intrest. > > >>Let Angel be the center of Angel's world. For Angel to come trotting back > >>after four years as a Mary Sue, helping other characters reach > >>earth-shattering > >>personal revelations and changing the Scoobies' lives would be ludicrous. > >Is > >>BtVS sending Xander over to "Angel" to help, say, Cordelia understand > >herself > >>in ways that everyone else has failed to do after three 1/2 years? > >> > >> > >> > > So what exactly do you propose we >see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? > > I'd prefer he not come back at all to tell the truth,.... --- That's is telling fact..... > > ....but since he is coming back, he can be part of the team and help out. > And work out his long term Buffy issues. And they will probably rekindle > their love, etc. But do I want him to be a Mary Sue to the other regulars? > (The Mary Sue is the character in a story who enters after not having been > there at all or for ages, and is able to solve everyone's problems.) ---- I don't think it will enter his mind to even try. > > >You > >want him to just show up, throw a few punches, wave to everyone and then take > >off? Maybe that works for you, but I'd much rather see the character utilized > >in an effective way that furthers the stories and characterizations we've > >already been given. > > I'd rather Angel not take over BtVS in its last hour. I'd rather David > Boreanaz not, in the finale, become once again the "male star" of a show where > James Marsters has been busting his ass off for the last four years, and Nick > Brendon has been busting HIS ass off for the last six and a half years. > Boreanaz is the male star of Angel. Let one of the BtVS cast be the male star > of BtVS. That can be either Brendon or Marsters. They've earned it. ---- Not a matter of earning it. This is a grand romantic tale. The first love of each other being reunited. And JW said this was supposed to be the season we get back to the beginning. The first great love affair will be the last (assuming it will be rekindled). > > Nothing against David Boreanaz, he's worked very hard on his own show, but > that's just the point, he has his own show. He should have only a small role in > the BtVS finale. The BtVS finale should be about the BtVS characters, not > Angel. ---- You miss the point, they are ALL BtVS characters. He was one of the originals. Hell, he was there before Spike. > > > And to assume Angel's return won't impact Spike and Buffy and their > >relationship in *some* way is a tad bit naive in my opinion. > >> > > What relationship? Spike and Buffy aren't in a relationship and probably > never will be. The closest thing Buffy has to a boyfriend right now is Robin > Wood, and who knows if that will change by the finale. (Yes, I know all about > Ep 17, but Ep 18 makes me think that it's too soon to nail the Wuffy coffin > shut.) I'm sure Buffy will end up with Angel in the finale. That's not my > point. My point is that for Spike to find out that his whole existence has > centered around Angel-envy would be just too "Angel is the Center of the > Universe" for words. ----- Prepare for it none the less. I think there will be a great confrontation scene in the finale between Angel and Spike, with lots of relevations and clearing the air. > >> > >>If Spike isn't his own man, and is still Buffy (or, as in Unbound's opinion, > >>Angel's) bitch by the finale, there is no hope for him. I doubt there is a > >>damn thing Angel can do. > >> > > I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things > >out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic character > >and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- > >likely trying to save Buffy. > > But why would he do that? If his whole blessed existence has been about Angel, > he should die to save Angel, because after all, it's all about Angel. > > > Rose > It's not Giles, no, it's not > "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew > ----- Not his existance, but there has always been a competition there as I said before. It is fitting that if any confrontation occurs it will be over Buffy. As I said before several weeks ago, Angel is Buffy's first love and we know from when Angel mentioned Buffy's name while having his soul losing fantasy of being with Cordelia she is his. He is The Most Important BtVS Character Ever. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 03:10:42+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) > > >In article <20030302173906.22649.00000251@mb-ck.aol.com>, >fylmfan@aol.comspam says... >> >Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >> >From: unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) >> >Date: 3/2/2003 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time >> >Message-id: <20030302172304.20658.00000062@mb-mm.aol.com> >> > >> >>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) >> >> >> >> >> >>Unbound wrote: >> >> >> >If ME is going to take the time to >> >construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous >character >> >in >> >numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for >> >storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make >use >> >of >> >everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a >> >(hopefully) >> >satisfying conclusion. >> >> >> >> For Spike's story to be that he was all about Angel all this time would be >so >> pathetic as to be incredibly unsatisfying. Please, ME, kill Spike off >rather >> than do that. Let him go out with some dignity. >---- >It was partly about Angel, I am sure the spector of Angel was always >hovering in the background especially at the end and he got his soul. >It is only natural that one compares one's self to a former rival if >you are dating that former rival's love intrest. > > > Yup, and of course Spike and Angel's history goes even further back. There's a lot going on between the two of them. I would be astonished if Whedon didn't mine that territory for all it's worth in the finale. > > > >> > So what exactly do you propose we >see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? > >> >> I'd prefer he not come back at all to tell the truth,.... >--- >That's is telling fact..... > > > Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many other Buffy fans feel the same way. He's been one of the show's most important characters since its inception. I think it's perfectly natural for him to be there at the end. > > > >> >You >> >want him to just show up, throw a few punches, wave to everyone and then >take >> >off? Maybe that works for you, but I'd much rather see the character >utilized >> >in an effective way that furthers the stories and characterizations we've >> >already been given. >> >> I'd rather Angel not take over BtVS in its last hour. I'd rather David >> Boreanaz not, in the finale, become once again the "male star" of a show >where >> James Marsters has been busting his ass off for the last four years, and >Nick >> Brendon has been busting HIS ass off for the last six and a half years. >> Boreanaz is the male star of Angel. Let one of the BtVS cast be the male >star >> of BtVS. That can be either Brendon or Marsters. They've earned it. >---- >Not a matter of earning it. This is a grand romantic tale. The first >love of each other being reunited. And JW said this was supposed to be >the season we get back to the beginning. The first great love affair >will be the last (assuming it will be rekindled). > > > I'm not sure what Whedon has planned for Angel's return (and it's my plan to avoid spoilers for both "Angel" and "Buffy" from here on out), so I don't know where he'll go with the whole Angel-Buffy ship thing. But if he is serious about bringing the show full circle -- and that's clearly been one of this season's themes -- then Angel has also earned the right to be there at the end. > > > >> Nothing against David Boreanaz, he's worked very hard on his own show, but >> that's just the point, he has his own show. He should have only a small >role in >> the BtVS finale. The BtVS finale should be about the BtVS characters, not >> Angel. >---- >You miss the point, they are ALL BtVS characters. He was one of the >originals. Hell, he was there before Spike. > > > Precisely. And you could make an argument that in the early days of the series he was every bit as important to the series as Xander and Willow. He belongs in the finale. > > > >> > And to assume Angel's return won't impact Spike and Buffy and their >> >relationship in *some* way is a tad bit naive in my opinion. >> >> >> >> What relationship? Spike and Buffy aren't in a relationship and probably >> never will be. The closest thing Buffy has to a boyfriend right now is >Robin >> Wood, and who knows if that will change by the finale. (Yes, I know all >about >> Ep 17, but Ep 18 makes me think that it's too soon to nail the Wuffy coffin >> shut.) I'm sure Buffy will end up with Angel in the finale. That's not my >> point. My point is that for Spike to find out that his whole existence has >> centered around Angel-envy would be just too "Angel is the Center of the >> Universe" for words. >----- >Prepare for it none the less. I think there will be a great >confrontation scene in the finale between Angel and Spike, with lots >of relevations and clearing the air. > > > It's one of the many things I'm looking forward to the rest of this season for both shows although it takes a backseat to anything involving Faith. <g> Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-03 03:10:42+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) > > >In article <20030302173906.22649.00000251@mb-ck.aol.com>, >fylmfan@aol.comspam says... >> >Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >> >From: unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) >> >Date: 3/2/2003 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time >> >Message-id: <20030302172304.20658.00000062@mb-mm.aol.com> >> > >> >>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) >> >> >> >> >> >>Unbound wrote: >> >> >> >If ME is going to take the time to >> >construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous >character >> >in >> >numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for >> >storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make >use >> >of >> >everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a >> >(hopefully) >> >satisfying conclusion. >> >> >> >> For Spike's story to be that he was all about Angel all this time would be >so >> pathetic as to be incredibly unsatisfying. Please, ME, kill Spike off >rather >> than do that. Let him go out with some dignity. >---- >It was partly about Angel, I am sure the spector of Angel was always >hovering in the background especially at the end and he got his soul. >It is only natural that one compares one's self to a former rival if >you are dating that former rival's love intrest. > > > Yup, and of course Spike and Angel's history goes even further back. There's a lot going on between the two of them. I would be astonished if Whedon didn't mine that territory for all it's worth in the finale. > > > >> > So what exactly do you propose we >see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? > >> >> I'd prefer he not come back at all to tell the truth,.... >--- >That's is telling fact..... > > > Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many other Buffy fans feel the same way. He's been one of the show's most important characters since its inception. I think it's perfectly natural for him to be there at the end. > > > >> >You >> >want him to just show up, throw a few punches, wave to everyone and then >take >> >off? Maybe that works for you, but I'd much rather see the character >utilized >> >in an effective way that furthers the stories and characterizations we've >> >already been given. >> >> I'd rather Angel not take over BtVS in its last hour. I'd rather David >> Boreanaz not, in the finale, become once again the "male star" of a show >where >> James Marsters has been busting his ass off for the last four years, and >Nick >> Brendon has been busting HIS ass off for the last six and a half years. >> Boreanaz is the male star of Angel. Let one of the BtVS cast be the male >star >> of BtVS. That can be either Brendon or Marsters. They've earned it. >---- >Not a matter of earning it. This is a grand romantic tale. The first >love of each other being reunited. And JW said this was supposed to be >the season we get back to the beginning. The first great love affair >will be the last (assuming it will be rekindled). > > > I'm not sure what Whedon has planned for Angel's return (and it's my plan to avoid spoilers for both "Angel" and "Buffy" from here on out), so I don't know where he'll go with the whole Angel-Buffy ship thing. But if he is serious about bringing the show full circle -- and that's clearly been one of this season's themes -- then Angel has also earned the right to be there at the end. > > > >> Nothing against David Boreanaz, he's worked very hard on his own show, but >> that's just the point, he has his own show. He should have only a small >role in >> the BtVS finale. The BtVS finale should be about the BtVS characters, not >> Angel. >---- >You miss the point, they are ALL BtVS characters. He was one of the >originals. Hell, he was there before Spike. > > > Precisely. And you could make an argument that in the early days of the series he was every bit as important to the series as Xander and Willow. He belongs in the finale. > > > >> > And to assume Angel's return won't impact Spike and Buffy and their >> >relationship in *some* way is a tad bit naive in my opinion. >> >> >> >> What relationship? Spike and Buffy aren't in a relationship and probably >> never will be. The closest thing Buffy has to a boyfriend right now is >Robin >> Wood, and who knows if that will change by the finale. (Yes, I know all >about >> Ep 17, but Ep 18 makes me think that it's too soon to nail the Wuffy coffin >> shut.) I'm sure Buffy will end up with Angel in the finale. That's not my >> point. My point is that for Spike to find out that his whole existence has >> centered around Angel-envy would be just too "Angel is the Center of the >> Universe" for words. >----- >Prepare for it none the less. I think there will be a great >confrontation scene in the finale between Angel and Spike, with lots >of relevations and clearing the air. > > > It's one of the many things I'm looking forward to the rest of this season for both shows although it takes a backseat to anything involving Faith. <g> Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-03 03:18:04+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <a-59506A.17120102032003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, a@a.edu says... > In article <20030302175457.22596.00000291@mb-fg.aol.com>, > unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) wrote: > > > >From: rat rat@the.zoo > > > > > > > > >>Unbound wrote: > > > > > >> I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things > > >> out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic > > >character > > >> and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- > > >> likely trying to save Buffy. > > > > > >*Become* tragic? When was he anything but? > > > > > > > > > > > True, but he's been on tragic overdrive the past couple of years in > > particular in my opinion. :) > > > > > > > > > > > >SoulSpike(William) has taken on a lot of the personality traits of Spike > > >and even retains the fake accent he adopted as Spike. I don't think the > > >antipathy to Angel has survived the melding of personalities. The > > >masochism remained, but he had to work himself back up to the love of > > >the fight that was Spike's outlet for that masochism. > > > > > >The ME universe has a "heaven" and "hell", but Spike as he is right now > > >is probably still doomed to a hell. I think if Spike redeems himself it > > >will be so he can become human, die, and be reincarnated as human for > > >another shot at the karma-go-round. > > > > > > > > > > > Which, if I'm not mistaken, is part of the prophecy that most of us assume > > pertains only to Angel. Perhaps ME has other plans. > > Actually the prophecy was already fulfilled. Angel became human but > rejected his humanity so he'd have the strength to continue the good > fight and be there when Buffy needed him. It's just a little bit of > irony that he didn't find out about the prophecy until he had already > rejected it. > ---- I need a refresher: When did Angel become human? I mean physically and not methaphorically (since I consider him human spiritually since he has a soul. Spike too). I recall him smashing the ring that would had made him nigh invulnerable but I have clean forgotten about him turning down a chance to become mortal again. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 03:18:04+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <a-59506A.17120102032003@husk.cso.niu.edu>, a@a.edu says... > In article <20030302175457.22596.00000291@mb-fg.aol.com>, > unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) wrote: > > > >From: rat rat@the.zoo > > > > > > > > >>Unbound wrote: > > > > > >> I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things > > >> out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic > > >character > > >> and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- > > >> likely trying to save Buffy. > > > > > >*Become* tragic? When was he anything but? > > > > > > > > > > > True, but he's been on tragic overdrive the past couple of years in > > particular in my opinion. :) > > > > > > > > > > > >SoulSpike(William) has taken on a lot of the personality traits of Spike > > >and even retains the fake accent he adopted as Spike. I don't think the > > >antipathy to Angel has survived the melding of personalities. The > > >masochism remained, but he had to work himself back up to the love of > > >the fight that was Spike's outlet for that masochism. > > > > > >The ME universe has a "heaven" and "hell", but Spike as he is right now > > >is probably still doomed to a hell. I think if Spike redeems himself it > > >will be so he can become human, die, and be reincarnated as human for > > >another shot at the karma-go-round. > > > > > > > > > > > Which, if I'm not mistaken, is part of the prophecy that most of us assume > > pertains only to Angel. Perhaps ME has other plans. > > Actually the prophecy was already fulfilled. Angel became human but > rejected his humanity so he'd have the strength to continue the good > fight and be there when Buffy needed him. It's just a little bit of > irony that he didn't find out about the prophecy until he had already > rejected it. > ---- I need a refresher: When did Angel become human? I mean physically and not methaphorically (since I consider him human spiritually since he has a soul. Spike too). I recall him smashing the ring that would had made him nigh invulnerable but I have clean forgotten about him turning down a chance to become mortal again. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 03:22:34+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <A_v8a.292141$2H6.4774@sccrnsc04>, rat@the.zoo says... > In article <20030302170940.22649.00000249@mb-ck.aol.com>, Rose wrote: > > [snip] > > > PS, yes of course Spike got his soul for the wrong reasons. As an evil, > > soulless vampire he was incapable of doing anything for the right reasons. > > Geez, am I the only one who reads ME's interviews? > > I always thought of the demon soul of Spike as being like Crawley in > "Good Omens". Evil, but in a light-hearted, chilling, way. He believed > that he was only doing what humans would do if they had the power. > ---- Projecting evil on to others when one is doing evil himself is a justification that is very convenient. And some of the twisted humans do have the power; they are called serial killers, notoriously hard to catch. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 03:22:34+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <A_v8a.292141$2H6.4774@sccrnsc04>, rat@the.zoo says... > In article <20030302170940.22649.00000249@mb-ck.aol.com>, Rose wrote: > > [snip] > > > PS, yes of course Spike got his soul for the wrong reasons. As an evil, > > soulless vampire he was incapable of doing anything for the right reasons. > > Geez, am I the only one who reads ME's interviews? > > I always thought of the demon soul of Spike as being like Crawley in > "Good Omens". Evil, but in a light-hearted, chilling, way. He believed > that he was only doing what humans would do if they had the power. > ---- Projecting evil on to others when one is doing evil himself is a justification that is very convenient. And some of the twisted humans do have the power; they are called serial killers, notoriously hard to catch. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 03:28:07+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <3E628CC8.BC9AA682@prodigy.net>, chrisel@prodigy.net says... > Unbound I wrote: > > > Personally, although I like the character of Spike, I'm far more interested > > in Angel's potential redemption than Spike's. > > That's what the show AtS is for, and it's a good story. But I really > don't need to see Angel's brooding taking up the valuable last few eps > at BtVS as well. > > I also don't see how Angel's redemption is furthered by whatever may > happen if he crosses over onto BtVS. When you say "Angel's redemption" > do you really mean "Angel & Buffy 4eva?" Because I doubt ME is going to > have some big development in Angel's soul progress happen on BtVS. > > > One of the interesting aspects of Spike's possible attempt at redemption is > > that I believe he has gotten his soul back for all the wrong reasons. > > This is a question that philosophers can't answer, and the people on > this group certainly are never going to agree. But it's just seems so > cold and wrong to me. "Why did you save that woman from the burning > building?" "Because she's my wife and I love her." "Bzzzt... wrong > reason!" > > It's one thing to say that a stranger should help another stranger just > because it's the Right Thing To Do. But if the person you're trying to > help is someone you love, does the Right Thing become the Wrong Thing > because you love that person? And just how was Spike supposed to know > the Right Thing To Do before he got a soul anyway (per ME's version of > soul as moral compass)? > > Anyway, Spike seeking a soul out of love is a hell of a better reason > than being cursed with one because you raped and killed a young girl. > And since those are the only two souled vampires we know of, it's kind > of the best reason we've been given so far. ---- Maybe, but the fact that he was chipped for two years made the conditions possible for that to happen. In otherwords, neither soul- getting was voluntary on the whole. Angelus obviously wouldn't want to be cursed and Spike would never had got one if he was never chipped. > > > I would like to see it hit home that he > > continues to chase Angel's ghost and until he stops, his life will never be > > complete. He doesn't need to be Angel to be the man he wants most to be, or the > > man he believes Buffy wants him to be. He merely needs to be true to himself. > > Spike being true to himself includes being in love. ME has been telling > us that from School Hard on. Remember the love's bitch speech? The > episode Fool for Love? > > About how "his life will never be complete" ... well, Angel doesn't seem > to have a chip on his shoulder about other vampires, and he's seemingly > moved on from BuffyLove to CordyLove, and *his* life isn't complete, so > why would Spike putting Angel or Buffy behind him make his life > complete? One of the best lines this year re: Spike and his soul was > his answer "in progress" to Wood's interrogation about how the soul > thing was going. Angel and Spike are both works in progress; the fact > that Spike understands that is pretty major considering he hasn't had > 100 years to figure it out. > > > And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel > > returns to the scene? > > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last time the > > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very interesting > > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that Whedon > > won't squander this opportunity. > > ... by trying to convince us that a girl's only true love is the guy she > drooled over when she was 16, who coincidentally has moved on with his > own life, is in love with another woman, and hasn't even bothered to > make contact in two years. Gag. > > -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 03:28:07+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <3E628CC8.BC9AA682@prodigy.net>, chrisel@prodigy.net says... > Unbound I wrote: > > > Personally, although I like the character of Spike, I'm far more interested > > in Angel's potential redemption than Spike's. > > That's what the show AtS is for, and it's a good story. But I really > don't need to see Angel's brooding taking up the valuable last few eps > at BtVS as well. > > I also don't see how Angel's redemption is furthered by whatever may > happen if he crosses over onto BtVS. When you say "Angel's redemption" > do you really mean "Angel & Buffy 4eva?" Because I doubt ME is going to > have some big development in Angel's soul progress happen on BtVS. > > > One of the interesting aspects of Spike's possible attempt at redemption is > > that I believe he has gotten his soul back for all the wrong reasons. > > This is a question that philosophers can't answer, and the people on > this group certainly are never going to agree. But it's just seems so > cold and wrong to me. "Why did you save that woman from the burning > building?" "Because she's my wife and I love her." "Bzzzt... wrong > reason!" > > It's one thing to say that a stranger should help another stranger just > because it's the Right Thing To Do. But if the person you're trying to > help is someone you love, does the Right Thing become the Wrong Thing > because you love that person? And just how was Spike supposed to know > the Right Thing To Do before he got a soul anyway (per ME's version of > soul as moral compass)? > > Anyway, Spike seeking a soul out of love is a hell of a better reason > than being cursed with one because you raped and killed a young girl. > And since those are the only two souled vampires we know of, it's kind > of the best reason we've been given so far. ---- Maybe, but the fact that he was chipped for two years made the conditions possible for that to happen. In otherwords, neither soul- getting was voluntary on the whole. Angelus obviously wouldn't want to be cursed and Spike would never had got one if he was never chipped. > > > I would like to see it hit home that he > > continues to chase Angel's ghost and until he stops, his life will never be > > complete. He doesn't need to be Angel to be the man he wants most to be, or the > > man he believes Buffy wants him to be. He merely needs to be true to himself. > > Spike being true to himself includes being in love. ME has been telling > us that from School Hard on. Remember the love's bitch speech? The > episode Fool for Love? > > About how "his life will never be complete" ... well, Angel doesn't seem > to have a chip on his shoulder about other vampires, and he's seemingly > moved on from BuffyLove to CordyLove, and *his* life isn't complete, so > why would Spike putting Angel or Buffy behind him make his life > complete? One of the best lines this year re: Spike and his soul was > his answer "in progress" to Wood's interrogation about how the soul > thing was going. Angel and Spike are both works in progress; the fact > that Spike understands that is pretty major considering he hasn't had > 100 years to figure it out. > > > And what better moment for this type of self-realization than when Angel > > returns to the scene? > > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last time the > > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very interesting > > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that Whedon > > won't squander this opportunity. > > ... by trying to convince us that a girl's only true love is the guy she > drooled over when she was 16, who coincidentally has moved on with his > own life, is in love with another woman, and hasn't even bothered to > make contact in two years. Gag. > > -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 03:30:50+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030302180717.22596.00000293@mb-fg.aol.com>, unboundi@aol.com says... > >From: "Chris L." chrisel@prodigy.net > > > >Unbound I wrote: > > > >> Personally, although I like the character of Spike, I'm far more > >interested > >> in Angel's potential redemption than Spike's. > > > >That's what the show AtS is for, and it's a good story. But I really > >don't need to see Angel's brooding taking up the valuable last few eps > >at BtVS as well. > > > > > > > I don't want to see that either. > > > > > > > >I also don't see how Angel's redemption is furthered by whatever may > >happen if he crosses over onto BtVS. When you say "Angel's redemption" > >do you really mean "Angel & Buffy 4eva?" Because I doubt ME is going to > >have some big development in Angel's soul progress happen on BtVS. > > > > > > > Nope that's not what I mean. And just so we're clear, I don't want to see > the "Buffy" finale be a part of Angel's redemption. I agree, that's what his > show is for. > > Unbound I > > > Check out my book about The X-Files at > http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html > --- Agreed, but I think whatever happens on BtVS will have an impact on him as well as he having an impact on BtVS. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 03:30:50+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030302180717.22596.00000293@mb-fg.aol.com>, unboundi@aol.com says... > >From: "Chris L." chrisel@prodigy.net > > > >Unbound I wrote: > > > >> Personally, although I like the character of Spike, I'm far more > >interested > >> in Angel's potential redemption than Spike's. > > > >That's what the show AtS is for, and it's a good story. But I really > >don't need to see Angel's brooding taking up the valuable last few eps > >at BtVS as well. > > > > > > > I don't want to see that either. > > > > > > > >I also don't see how Angel's redemption is furthered by whatever may > >happen if he crosses over onto BtVS. When you say "Angel's redemption" > >do you really mean "Angel & Buffy 4eva?" Because I doubt ME is going to > >have some big development in Angel's soul progress happen on BtVS. > > > > > > > Nope that's not what I mean. And just so we're clear, I don't want to see > the "Buffy" finale be a part of Angel's redemption. I agree, that's what his > show is for. > > Unbound I > > > Check out my book about The X-Files at > http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html > --- Agreed, but I think whatever happens on BtVS will have an impact on him as well as he having an impact on BtVS. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 03:40:27+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <v6566mgh12t74e@corp.supernews.com>, slapfish@yahoo.com says... > > > > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last > time the > > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very > interesting > > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that > Whedon > > won't squander this opportunity. > > IMO Spikes redemption is far more interesting than Angels. Spike chose to > regain his sould because he was in love. This means that even as a > heartless, evil demon that he could make sacrifices for love. > That is an oxymoron. Heartless evil people don't make sacrifices for love, they wouldn't be heartless if they did. Also, it was not totally out of selflessness that he got a soul. He realized Angel had one, Buffy loved Angel; and not realizing the impact that it would have on him then went out and got the spark. So it was not really a sacrifice since he did not really understand what he was getting into. As he himself said, "Angel should had warned..." > > Angel on the other hand never make the choice to regain his soul. > It was done to him as a punishment and for a long time he rejected it. ----- I don't recall him ever rejecting it. He had a period of apathy, but he never rejected his soul. Also, as I said in another reply, if Spike was not chipped he never would had gone for a soul either. He would had been having too much fun feeding on walking Happy Meals. The chip was Hostile 17's curse. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 03:40:27+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <v6566mgh12t74e@corp.supernews.com>, slapfish@yahoo.com says... > > > > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last > time the > > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very > interesting > > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that > Whedon > > won't squander this opportunity. > > IMO Spikes redemption is far more interesting than Angels. Spike chose to > regain his sould because he was in love. This means that even as a > heartless, evil demon that he could make sacrifices for love. > That is an oxymoron. Heartless evil people don't make sacrifices for love, they wouldn't be heartless if they did. Also, it was not totally out of selflessness that he got a soul. He realized Angel had one, Buffy loved Angel; and not realizing the impact that it would have on him then went out and got the spark. So it was not really a sacrifice since he did not really understand what he was getting into. As he himself said, "Angel should had warned..." > > Angel on the other hand never make the choice to regain his soul. > It was done to him as a punishment and for a long time he rejected it. ----- I don't recall him ever rejecting it. He had a period of apathy, but he never rejected his soul. Also, as I said in another reply, if Spike was not chipped he never would had gone for a soul either. He would had been having too much fun feeding on walking Happy Meals. The chip was Hostile 17's curse. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 03:52:46+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (rat <rat@the.zoo>)


In article <MPG.18cc94ceb15a784f9897f4@news.earthlink.net>, Hunter wrote: > In article <A_v8a.292141$2H6.4774@sccrnsc04>, rat@the.zoo says... >> In article <20030302170940.22649.00000249@mb-ck.aol.com>, Rose wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> > PS, yes of course Spike got his soul for the wrong reasons. As an evil, >> > soulless vampire he was incapable of doing anything for the right reasons. >> > Geez, am I the only one who reads ME's interviews? >> >> I always thought of the demon soul of Spike as being like Crawley in >> "Good Omens". Evil, but in a light-hearted, chilling, way. He believed >> that he was only doing what humans would do if they had the power. >> > ---- > Projecting evil on to others when one is doing evil himself is a > justification that is very convenient. And some of the twisted humans > do have the power; they are called serial killers, notoriously hard to > catch. Which I guess would make DemonSpike more like Angus Thermopylae than Crawley. There's a character that the author takes great pains to show can *never* be redeemed.

2003-03-03 03:52:46+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (rat <rat@the.zoo>)


In article <MPG.18cc94ceb15a784f9897f4@news.earthlink.net>, Hunter wrote: > In article <A_v8a.292141$2H6.4774@sccrnsc04>, rat@the.zoo says... >> In article <20030302170940.22649.00000249@mb-ck.aol.com>, Rose wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> > PS, yes of course Spike got his soul for the wrong reasons. As an evil, >> > soulless vampire he was incapable of doing anything for the right reasons. >> > Geez, am I the only one who reads ME's interviews? >> >> I always thought of the demon soul of Spike as being like Crawley in >> "Good Omens". Evil, but in a light-hearted, chilling, way. He believed >> that he was only doing what humans would do if they had the power. >> > ---- > Projecting evil on to others when one is doing evil himself is a > justification that is very convenient. And some of the twisted humans > do have the power; they are called serial killers, notoriously hard to > catch. Which I guess would make DemonSpike more like Angus Thermopylae than Crawley. There's a character that the author takes great pains to show can *never* be redeemed.

2003-03-03 04:27:59+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030302221042.22596.00000301@mb-fg.aol.com>, unboundi@aol.com says... > >From: buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) > > > > > >In article <20030302173906.22649.00000251@mb-ck.aol.com>, > >fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > >> >Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul > >> >From: unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) > >> >Date: 3/2/2003 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time > >> >Message-id: <20030302172304.20658.00000062@mb-mm.aol.com> > >> > > >> >>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>Unbound wrote: > >> >> > >> >If ME is going to take the time to > >> >construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous > >character > >> >in > >> >numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for > >> >storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make > >use > >> >of > >> >everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a > >> >(hopefully) > >> >satisfying conclusion. > >> >> > >> > >> For Spike's story to be that he was all about Angel all this time would be > >so > >> pathetic as to be incredibly unsatisfying. Please, ME, kill Spike off > >rather > >> than do that. Let him go out with some dignity. > >---- > >It was partly about Angel, I am sure the spector of Angel was always > >hovering in the background especially at the end and he got his soul. > >It is only natural that one compares one's self to a former rival if > >you are dating that former rival's love intrest. > > > > > > > Yup, and of course Spike and Angel's history goes even further back. There's > a lot going on between the two of them. I would be astonished if Whedon didn't > mine that territory for all it's worth in the finale. > > > > > > > >> > So what exactly do you propose we >see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? > > > >> > >> I'd prefer he not come back at all to tell the truth,.... > >--- > >That's is telling fact..... > > > > > > > Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many other Buffy fans feel the same way. > He's been one of the show's most important characters since its inception. I > think it's perfectly natural for him to be there at the end. > > --- A lot of Buffy/Spike shippers. Rose is or at least use to be a B/S shipper if I gathered correctly. So she is threatened by Angel. You should had seen the reply from her I got when I mentioned that Angel cried out Buffy's name when he lost his soul in his fantasy because that was his first love even though he loves Cordy too. (snip) > Unbound I > Check out my book about The X-Files at > http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html > -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 04:27:59+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030302221042.22596.00000301@mb-fg.aol.com>, unboundi@aol.com says... > >From: buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) > > > > > >In article <20030302173906.22649.00000251@mb-ck.aol.com>, > >fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > >> >Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul > >> >From: unboundi@aol.com (Unbound I) > >> >Date: 3/2/2003 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time > >> >Message-id: <20030302172304.20658.00000062@mb-mm.aol.com> > >> > > >> >>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>Unbound wrote: > >> >> > >> >If ME is going to take the time to > >> >construct a story arc for one character which parallels a previous > >character > >> >in > >> >numerous ways and when the latter character is now available to them for > >> >storytelling purposes, I would think it would behoove the writer to make > >use > >> >of > >> >everything that has been set forth in motion and bring it all to a > >> >(hopefully) > >> >satisfying conclusion. > >> >> > >> > >> For Spike's story to be that he was all about Angel all this time would be > >so > >> pathetic as to be incredibly unsatisfying. Please, ME, kill Spike off > >rather > >> than do that. Let him go out with some dignity. > >---- > >It was partly about Angel, I am sure the spector of Angel was always > >hovering in the background especially at the end and he got his soul. > >It is only natural that one compares one's self to a former rival if > >you are dating that former rival's love intrest. > > > > > > > Yup, and of course Spike and Angel's history goes even further back. There's > a lot going on between the two of them. I would be astonished if Whedon didn't > mine that territory for all it's worth in the finale. > > > > > > > >> > So what exactly do you propose we >see Angel do in the finale? Nothing? > > > >> > >> I'd prefer he not come back at all to tell the truth,.... > >--- > >That's is telling fact..... > > > > > > > Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many other Buffy fans feel the same way. > He's been one of the show's most important characters since its inception. I > think it's perfectly natural for him to be there at the end. > > --- A lot of Buffy/Spike shippers. Rose is or at least use to be a B/S shipper if I gathered correctly. So she is threatened by Angel. You should had seen the reply from her I got when I mentioned that Angel cried out Buffy's name when he lost his soul in his fantasy because that was his first love even though he loves Cordy too. (snip) > Unbound I > Check out my book about The X-Files at > http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html > -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 07:55:22+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Buffhunter wrote: > >Since we don't have any idea exactly as what Angel's role will be in >the reunion it is a bit early to run him >down yet. Run who down? I was telling Unbound I didn't like his or her scenario. Not running down Angel. As to preparing, if they were to make Angel the center of the universe in the finale, I have options rather than preparing for it. The cool thing about TV is it isn't mandatory. ;) Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-03 07:55:22+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Buffhunter wrote: > >Since we don't have any idea exactly as what Angel's role will be in >the reunion it is a bit early to run him >down yet. Run who down? I was telling Unbound I didn't like his or her scenario. Not running down Angel. As to preparing, if they were to make Angel the center of the universe in the finale, I have options rather than preparing for it. The cool thing about TV is it isn't mandatory. ;) Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-03 07:57:25+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Buffhunter wrote: > >--- >A lot of Buffy/Spike shippers. Rose is or at least use to be a B/S >shipper if I gathered correctly. So she is >threatened by Angel. Enter the personal remarks and the psychoanalysis. You usually don't resort to this crap, Buff. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-03 07:57:25+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Buffhunter wrote: > >--- >A lot of Buffy/Spike shippers. Rose is or at least use to be a B/S >shipper if I gathered correctly. So she is >threatened by Angel. Enter the personal remarks and the psychoanalysis. You usually don't resort to this crap, Buff. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-03 08:29:55-08:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (smaug86@yahoo.com)


"slapfish" <slapfish@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<v6566mgh12t74e@corp.supernews.com>... > > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last > time the > > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very > interesting > > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that > Whedon > > won't squander this opportunity. > > IMO Spikes redemption is far more interesting than Angels. Spike chose to > regain his sould because he was in love. This means that even as a > heartless, evil demon that he could make sacrifices for love. Angel on the > other hand never make the choice to regain his soul. It was done to him as > a punishment and for a long time he rejected it. Spike tried to end the world for love, as well. Doing things solely for love is not always good. In fact, most of the time it's bad. And in the case of Spike and Drusilla it was evil.(Of course, one could argue that Soulless Spike was incapable of real emotional love because he had no soul and wasn't a human being) And I'm still not convinced that Spike actually sought out his soul. He wanted to end his emotional and physical torment- from Buffy and the chip. He got more than he barganined for. Smaug69

2003-03-03 08:29:55-08:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (smaug86@yahoo.com)


"slapfish" <slapfish@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<v6566mgh12t74e@corp.supernews.com>... > > Angel, Buffy and Spike have all changed considerably since the last > time the > > three of them were in the same room together. It's going to be very > interesting > > to see what happens when they are reunited once again. It's my hope that > Whedon > > won't squander this opportunity. > > IMO Spikes redemption is far more interesting than Angels. Spike chose to > regain his sould because he was in love. This means that even as a > heartless, evil demon that he could make sacrifices for love. Angel on the > other hand never make the choice to regain his soul. It was done to him as > a punishment and for a long time he rejected it. Spike tried to end the world for love, as well. Doing things solely for love is not always good. In fact, most of the time it's bad. And in the case of Spike and Drusilla it was evil.(Of course, one could argue that Soulless Spike was incapable of real emotional love because he had no soul and wasn't a human being) And I'm still not convinced that Spike actually sought out his soul. He wanted to end his emotional and physical torment- from Buffy and the chip. He got more than he barganined for. Smaug69

2003-03-03 13:13:55+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Buffhunter wrote: >You >should had seen the reply from her I got when I mentioned that Angel >cried out Buffy's name when he lost his soul in his fantasy because >that was his first love even though >he loves Cordy too. OK, buffhunter, "I have Googled til I just can't Google no more." I can't find any reply from me to you about Angel calling out Buffy's name. Could you either point me to the post or recap what I said? Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-03 13:13:55+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Buffhunter wrote: >You >should had seen the reply from her I got when I mentioned that Angel >cried out Buffy's name when he lost his soul in his fantasy because >that was his first love even though >he loves Cordy too. OK, buffhunter, "I have Googled til I just can't Google no more." I can't find any reply from me to you about Angel calling out Buffy's name. Could you either point me to the post or recap what I said? Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-03 13:57:58+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >From: st striketoo@hotmail.com >Date: 3/3/2003 5:24 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <rjl66v0ffbt1spjr39qfj11469drsifjn7@4ax.com> > >On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 22:47:35 GMT, rat <rat@the.zoo> wrote: > >>>Unbound wrote: >> >>> I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things >>> out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic >character >>> and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- >>> likely trying to save Buffy. >> >>*Become* tragic? When was he anything but? >> >>SoulSpike(William) > >Soulspike is not William, William is deader than a doornail. > >Soulspike is a demon animating a human corpse with 'a soul' attached >to it, with a soul tormenting it with guilt. Note: a soul, not 'the >soul' or 'William's soul'. There is no evidence in the show that >either spike or angel are now anything but demons with souls. > "They restored my soul." -- Angel, in "Angel" "A present for a friend of mine. His soul." Jenny, "Innocence." Reference in Innocence to retrieving "my soul" from the ether "We will return your soul" (IIRC), Demon Guy, "Grave" This stuff doesn't prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt but it's pretty strong evidence Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-03 13:57:58+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >From: st striketoo@hotmail.com >Date: 3/3/2003 5:24 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <rjl66v0ffbt1spjr39qfj11469drsifjn7@4ax.com> > >On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 22:47:35 GMT, rat <rat@the.zoo> wrote: > >>>Unbound wrote: >> >>> I don't know if there's hope for him in any event. If Whedon plays things >>> out logically, Spike is doomed in the finale. He's become a tragic >character >>> and I think the logical chain of events will have him die in the finale -- >>> likely trying to save Buffy. >> >>*Become* tragic? When was he anything but? >> >>SoulSpike(William) > >Soulspike is not William, William is deader than a doornail. > >Soulspike is a demon animating a human corpse with 'a soul' attached >to it, with a soul tormenting it with guilt. Note: a soul, not 'the >soul' or 'William's soul'. There is no evidence in the show that >either spike or angel are now anything but demons with souls. > "They restored my soul." -- Angel, in "Angel" "A present for a friend of mine. His soul." Jenny, "Innocence." Reference in Innocence to retrieving "my soul" from the ether "We will return your soul" (IIRC), Demon Guy, "Grave" This stuff doesn't prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt but it's pretty strong evidence Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-03 14:01:00+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030303081355.11354.00000348@mb-fx.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > Buffhunter wrote: > > > >You > >should had seen the reply from her I got when I mentioned that Angel > >cried out Buffy's name when he lost his soul in his fantasy because > >that was his first love even though > >he loves Cordy too. > > OK, buffhunter, "I have Googled til I just can't Google no more." I can't find > any reply from me to you about Angel calling out Buffy's name. Could you > either point me to the post or recap what I said? > > > Rose > It's not Giles, no, it's not > "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew > --- I take it back and apologise, it was Clariel, not you. I do still stand that you are/were a B/S shipper though, hence the unreasoning hostility. ;-) -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 14:01:00+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030303081355.11354.00000348@mb-fx.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > Buffhunter wrote: > > > >You > >should had seen the reply from her I got when I mentioned that Angel > >cried out Buffy's name when he lost his soul in his fantasy because > >that was his first love even though > >he loves Cordy too. > > OK, buffhunter, "I have Googled til I just can't Google no more." I can't find > any reply from me to you about Angel calling out Buffy's name. Could you > either point me to the post or recap what I said? > > > Rose > It's not Giles, no, it's not > "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew > --- I take it back and apologise, it was Clariel, not you. I do still stand that you are/were a B/S shipper though, hence the unreasoning hostility. ;-) -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-03 17:33:52+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, striketoo@hotmail.com wrote in article <g1m66vcke95qv2llfm47d44luv9hcfejj1@4ax.com>... > On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 22:17:17 -0600, Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote: > > >First season, episode #8 "I Will Remember you". > > Angel.... S1......*shudder* > > st > (will be ok in a minute) Angel... Season One... Applaud. That series has gotten better and better since then. And it was the show that caused me to become a regular viewer of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-03 17:33:52+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, striketoo@hotmail.com wrote in article <g1m66vcke95qv2llfm47d44luv9hcfejj1@4ax.com>... > On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 22:17:17 -0600, Darwin Fish <a@a.edu> wrote: > > >First season, episode #8 "I Will Remember you". > > Angel.... S1......*shudder* > > st > (will be ok in a minute) Angel... Season One... Applaud. That series has gotten better and better since then. And it was the show that caused me to become a regular viewer of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-03 19:36:14-06:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <mhu76vo4k9k12n8okst7rie6ejfgcr6k5e@4ax.com>, st <striketoo@hotmail.com> wrote: > Actually I see this as supporting my point. If you look at buffy's > speech in its entirety its seems clear, at least to me, that although > she had a sense of self, it was very limited. I mean, she says she > knew everyone she loved was 'alright' even though this wasn't really > true in the normal sense, and she didn't seem to associate actual > individuals with 'people she loves'. But they were alright. Sure... their bodies might have been in mortal danger, but so what? It's their souls that count and as Buffy knew if they died they'd simply change form and get to spend eternity among the happy, pink clouds of paradise.

2003-03-03 19:36:14-06:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Snuggles <postmaster@spamcop.net>)


In article <mhu76vo4k9k12n8okst7rie6ejfgcr6k5e@4ax.com>, st <striketoo@hotmail.com> wrote: > Actually I see this as supporting my point. If you look at buffy's > speech in its entirety its seems clear, at least to me, that although > she had a sense of self, it was very limited. I mean, she says she > knew everyone she loved was 'alright' even though this wasn't really > true in the normal sense, and she didn't seem to associate actual > individuals with 'people she loves'. But they were alright. Sure... their bodies might have been in mortal danger, but so what? It's their souls that count and as Buffy knew if they died they'd simply change form and get to spend eternity among the happy, pink clouds of paradise.

2003-03-04 00:40:07+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


> >Spike tried to end the world for love, as well. Doing things solely >for love is not always good. In fact, most of the time it's bad. And >in the case of Spike and Drusilla it was evil.(Of course, one could >argue that Soulless Spike was incapable of real emotional love because >he had no soul and wasn't a human being) > >And I'm still not convinced that Spike actually sought out his soul. >He wanted to end his emotional and physical torment- from Buffy and >the chip. He got more than he barganined for. > >Smaug69 > Stubborn fella, ain't you? Won't let go of the old theory for love or money. <g> Anyway, it doesn't really matter to the story by this time (though it did matter very much to me at the time). I don't think how or why Angel and Spike got their souls affects their lives now, except in the area of whether they can enjoy sex with their lady loves. What counts is what these new, ensouled beings do with their new lives. They can live as good men or bad or neutral, as they choose. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 00:40:07+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


> >Spike tried to end the world for love, as well. Doing things solely >for love is not always good. In fact, most of the time it's bad. And >in the case of Spike and Drusilla it was evil.(Of course, one could >argue that Soulless Spike was incapable of real emotional love because >he had no soul and wasn't a human being) > >And I'm still not convinced that Spike actually sought out his soul. >He wanted to end his emotional and physical torment- from Buffy and >the chip. He got more than he barganined for. > >Smaug69 > Stubborn fella, ain't you? Won't let go of the old theory for love or money. <g> Anyway, it doesn't really matter to the story by this time (though it did matter very much to me at the time). I don't think how or why Angel and Spike got their souls affects their lives now, except in the area of whether they can enjoy sex with their lady loves. What counts is what these new, ensouled beings do with their new lives. They can live as good men or bad or neutral, as they choose. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 00:42:56+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >From: buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) >Date: 3/3/2003 6:01 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <MPG.18cd2a25aea6039d989800@news.earthlink.net> > >In article <20030303081355.11354.00000348@mb-fx.aol.com>, >fylmfan@aol.comspam says... >> Buffhunter wrote: >> >> >> >You >> >should had seen the reply from her I got when I mentioned that Angel >> >cried out Buffy's name when he lost his soul in his fantasy because >> >that was his first love even though >> >he loves Cordy too. >> >> OK, buffhunter, "I have Googled til I just can't Google no more." I can't >find >> any reply from me to you about Angel calling out Buffy's name. Could you >> either point me to the post or recap what I said? >> >> >> Rose >> It's not Giles, no, it's not >> "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew >> >--- >I take it back and apologise, it was >Clariel, not you. I'm always so misunderstood, being falsely accused left and right...whoa is me... I'm going to go sulk and fantasize in a corner with Andrew... >I do still stand that you are/were a B/S shipper though, hence the >unreasoning hostility. ;-) >-- I was one of the first B/S shippers, then I wasn't one, now I am a little bit mainly because if Spike doesn't win Buffy it would make him look like he's failed in a lot of people's eyes. OTOH, if he were to get over Buffy and develop a successful relationship with someone else that would be cool too. I'm actually starting to think Buffy and Wood fit together kinda well. They're both cold customers, tho Buffy is less cold and more noble. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 00:42:56+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >From: buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) >Date: 3/3/2003 6:01 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <MPG.18cd2a25aea6039d989800@news.earthlink.net> > >In article <20030303081355.11354.00000348@mb-fx.aol.com>, >fylmfan@aol.comspam says... >> Buffhunter wrote: >> >> >> >You >> >should had seen the reply from her I got when I mentioned that Angel >> >cried out Buffy's name when he lost his soul in his fantasy because >> >that was his first love even though >> >he loves Cordy too. >> >> OK, buffhunter, "I have Googled til I just can't Google no more." I can't >find >> any reply from me to you about Angel calling out Buffy's name. Could you >> either point me to the post or recap what I said? >> >> >> Rose >> It's not Giles, no, it's not >> "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew >> >--- >I take it back and apologise, it was >Clariel, not you. I'm always so misunderstood, being falsely accused left and right...whoa is me... I'm going to go sulk and fantasize in a corner with Andrew... >I do still stand that you are/were a B/S shipper though, hence the >unreasoning hostility. ;-) >-- I was one of the first B/S shippers, then I wasn't one, now I am a little bit mainly because if Spike doesn't win Buffy it would make him look like he's failed in a lot of people's eyes. OTOH, if he were to get over Buffy and develop a successful relationship with someone else that would be cool too. I'm actually starting to think Buffy and Wood fit together kinda well. They're both cold customers, tho Buffy is less cold and more noble. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 00:55:27+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


> Strike wrote: > >Restore does not necessarily mean give back. It can mean: renew, build >up again, repair, re-establish. I'd accept this if Angel had said "They restored me to being an ensouled entity." That way, any old soul could be used. But saying they restored HIS soul implies he had a particular soul, then he didn't have it, and now he has it back. If you said "Rose restored my bicycle" I don't think anyone would think I bought you a new one, they'd think I gave you back the one I took. >So the soul is only part of a >person, I agree, but it seems that it's the most important part. William did live on, to a degree, in Spike via his memories and the dark side of his psychology, imo. Despite the fact that the writers downplay even that, saying there is "sort of" a "ghost" of William in the old Spike. I think there's more of William than that. However, without the soul, there is no true William, only a distorted, twisted imitation of him -- powered by a demonic life force. >not necessarily even the essense of a >person. I submit two pieces of evidence -- Willow referring to Buffy's soul as her essence in Bargaining (I suspect that was a definition thrown in for the new UPN viewers). And Buffy saying "Nothing had form but I was still me, you know?" > >Also, attaching Liam or William's soul onto a dead demon infested body >would arguably be even more of an abomination than a simple vampire, >making both Angel and Spike now even >more killable :) If you're arguing that the soul should be set free, yes, that's a valid argument and one that I made a looooong time ago in days of yore. However, I guess that's a choice for the newly united body&soul to make, not for the Slayer to make. > >Attaching a conscience (called soul) to a demon, on the other hand, >just means pain for the demon. That's not all it means. It also means he can choose to do good. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 00:55:27+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


> Strike wrote: > >Restore does not necessarily mean give back. It can mean: renew, build >up again, repair, re-establish. I'd accept this if Angel had said "They restored me to being an ensouled entity." That way, any old soul could be used. But saying they restored HIS soul implies he had a particular soul, then he didn't have it, and now he has it back. If you said "Rose restored my bicycle" I don't think anyone would think I bought you a new one, they'd think I gave you back the one I took. >So the soul is only part of a >person, I agree, but it seems that it's the most important part. William did live on, to a degree, in Spike via his memories and the dark side of his psychology, imo. Despite the fact that the writers downplay even that, saying there is "sort of" a "ghost" of William in the old Spike. I think there's more of William than that. However, without the soul, there is no true William, only a distorted, twisted imitation of him -- powered by a demonic life force. >not necessarily even the essense of a >person. I submit two pieces of evidence -- Willow referring to Buffy's soul as her essence in Bargaining (I suspect that was a definition thrown in for the new UPN viewers). And Buffy saying "Nothing had form but I was still me, you know?" > >Also, attaching Liam or William's soul onto a dead demon infested body >would arguably be even more of an abomination than a simple vampire, >making both Angel and Spike now even >more killable :) If you're arguing that the soul should be set free, yes, that's a valid argument and one that I made a looooong time ago in days of yore. However, I guess that's a choice for the newly united body&soul to make, not for the Slayer to make. > >Attaching a conscience (called soul) to a demon, on the other hand, >just means pain for the demon. That's not all it means. It also means he can choose to do good. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 01:01:00+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>whoa is >me.. OK, I know I've made lots of spelling mistakes since getting a sinus infection which is putting pressure on my feeble brain, but that was just sad. To punish myself, I am going to type "Riley is better than Spike." There I did it. That'll teach me. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 01:01:00+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>whoa is >me.. OK, I know I've made lots of spelling mistakes since getting a sinus infection which is putting pressure on my feeble brain, but that was just sad. To punish myself, I am going to type "Riley is better than Spike." There I did it. That'll teach me. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 01:08:59+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030303025725.17005.00000237@mb-cp.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > Buffhunter wrote: > > > > >--- > >A lot of Buffy/Spike shippers. Rose is or at least use to be a B/S > >shipper if I gathered correctly. So she is >threatened by Angel. > > Enter the personal remarks and the psychoanalysis. You usually don't resort to > this crap, Buff. > --- I don't see the remarks as so personal, at anyrate I do resort to this "crap" sometimes, like when I pointed out that those who had a death grip on the idea that "Angel" was no longer part of the Buffyverse no matter the evidence to the contrary, had a viceral dislike for the show ("Angel"); or, conversely, if they were PRO "Angel", a viceral dislike for BtVS. I think it is the same with you and Angel. (Ducks and runs for it). > > Rose > It's not Giles, no, it's not > "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew > -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-04 01:08:59+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030303025725.17005.00000237@mb-cp.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > Buffhunter wrote: > > > > >--- > >A lot of Buffy/Spike shippers. Rose is or at least use to be a B/S > >shipper if I gathered correctly. So she is >threatened by Angel. > > Enter the personal remarks and the psychoanalysis. You usually don't resort to > this crap, Buff. > --- I don't see the remarks as so personal, at anyrate I do resort to this "crap" sometimes, like when I pointed out that those who had a death grip on the idea that "Angel" was no longer part of the Buffyverse no matter the evidence to the contrary, had a viceral dislike for the show ("Angel"); or, conversely, if they were PRO "Angel", a viceral dislike for BtVS. I think it is the same with you and Angel. (Ducks and runs for it). > > Rose > It's not Giles, no, it's not > "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew > -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-04 01:10:04+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030303025522.17005.00000236@mb-cp.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > Buffhunter wrote: > > > > >Since we don't have any idea exactly as what Angel's role will be in > >the reunion it is a bit early to run him >down yet. > > Run who down? > > I was telling Unbound I didn't like his or her scenario. Not running down > Angel. > > As to preparing, if they were to make Angel the center of the universe in the > finale, I have options rather than preparing for it. The cool thing about TV > is it isn't mandatory. ;) > > > > > Rose > It's not Giles, no, it's not > "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew > ---- Prepare for him to have a big role, not neccessarily the center square. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-04 01:10:04+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (buffhunter@my-deja.com)


In article <20030303025522.17005.00000236@mb-cp.aol.com>, fylmfan@aol.comspam says... > Buffhunter wrote: > > > > >Since we don't have any idea exactly as what Angel's role will be in > >the reunion it is a bit early to run him >down yet. > > Run who down? > > I was telling Unbound I didn't like his or her scenario. Not running down > Angel. > > As to preparing, if they were to make Angel the center of the universe in the > finale, I have options rather than preparing for it. The cool thing about TV > is it isn't mandatory. ;) > > > > > Rose > It's not Giles, no, it's not > "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew > ---- Prepare for him to have a big role, not neccessarily the center square. -- ----->Hunter "No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'." -----William J. McDonald Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

2003-03-04 01:16:15+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


> >Prepare for him to have a big role, not neccessarily the center >square. >-- >----->Hunter Well fine, but I'll take Adam Busch to block. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 01:16:15+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


> >Prepare for him to have a big role, not neccessarily the center >square. >-- >----->Hunter Well fine, but I'll take Adam Busch to block. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 01:28:24+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >From: buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) >Date: 3/3/2003 5:08 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <MPG.18cdc69da8f9beb5989809@news.earthlink.net> > >In article <20030303025725.17005.00000237@mb-cp.aol.com>, >fylmfan@aol.comspam says... >> Buffhunter wrote: >> >> > >> >--- >> >A lot of Buffy/Spike shippers. Rose is or at least use to be a B/S >> >shipper if I gathered correctly. So she is >threatened by Angel. >> >> Enter the personal remarks and the psychoanalysis. You usually don't >resort to >> this crap, Buff. >> >--- >I don't see the remarks as so personal, Well they are about the person, not about the opinions being discussed. Your saying that I feel threatened by Angel is a remark about what you surmise is going on inside my head. I could have said stuff to Unbound like "oh you're just an Angelista so of course YOU'D want him to take over the show" or something like that, but I did not. I stuck to saying why I didn't like Unbound's vision,,,or rather, what I thought his/her vision was until he/she clarified it. I didn't make try to undermine Unbound's opinion because of his or her personal likes and dislikes. Nor did Unbound do that with me. Now of course it is true I am a Spike fan and I don't want him upstaged by Angel. What could be more natural than that? I'm sure Xander fans don't want Xander upstaged by Angel either...they got enough of that before DB left the show. But it's also true that I don't think a character who has not been on the show for years should come back and get too much screen time in the finale. It's kind of a slap to the other characters and even the actors in a way. "We can't make the finale REALLY exciting unless we give this actor who left the show years ago, lots to do." I felt a bit the same way about Faith's return -- I sometimes wondered if the Faith hoopla was at all hurtful to SMG's feelings -- but I knew they were trying to set up a spinoff with her, and her taking screen time from the regulars was part of the price to be paid for more Sunnydale next year. >at anyrate I do resort to this >"crap" sometimes, like when I pointed out that those who had a death >grip on the idea that "Angel" was no longer part of the Buffyverse no >matter the evidence to the contrary, had a viceral dislike for the >show ("Angel"); I felt for awhile that Angel canon didn't apply to Buffyville anymore and I didn't have a visceral dislike for AtS, though I've gone through my ups and downs with it to be sure. Clearly though, this year Angel and BtVS share canon. >or, conversely, if they were PRO "Angel", a viceral >dislike for BtVS. > >I think it is the same with you and Angel. (Ducks and runs for it). >> Well if you feel that way, you feel that way. Of course our opinions will be affected by who our favorite characters are, or what our favorite storylines are, or whether we prefer 'ships or action, but most intelligent people have more reasons for their opinions than blind allegiance to a character or other agenda. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 01:28:24+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >From: buffhunter@my-deja.com (Hunter) >Date: 3/3/2003 5:08 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <MPG.18cdc69da8f9beb5989809@news.earthlink.net> > >In article <20030303025725.17005.00000237@mb-cp.aol.com>, >fylmfan@aol.comspam says... >> Buffhunter wrote: >> >> > >> >--- >> >A lot of Buffy/Spike shippers. Rose is or at least use to be a B/S >> >shipper if I gathered correctly. So she is >threatened by Angel. >> >> Enter the personal remarks and the psychoanalysis. You usually don't >resort to >> this crap, Buff. >> >--- >I don't see the remarks as so personal, Well they are about the person, not about the opinions being discussed. Your saying that I feel threatened by Angel is a remark about what you surmise is going on inside my head. I could have said stuff to Unbound like "oh you're just an Angelista so of course YOU'D want him to take over the show" or something like that, but I did not. I stuck to saying why I didn't like Unbound's vision,,,or rather, what I thought his/her vision was until he/she clarified it. I didn't make try to undermine Unbound's opinion because of his or her personal likes and dislikes. Nor did Unbound do that with me. Now of course it is true I am a Spike fan and I don't want him upstaged by Angel. What could be more natural than that? I'm sure Xander fans don't want Xander upstaged by Angel either...they got enough of that before DB left the show. But it's also true that I don't think a character who has not been on the show for years should come back and get too much screen time in the finale. It's kind of a slap to the other characters and even the actors in a way. "We can't make the finale REALLY exciting unless we give this actor who left the show years ago, lots to do." I felt a bit the same way about Faith's return -- I sometimes wondered if the Faith hoopla was at all hurtful to SMG's feelings -- but I knew they were trying to set up a spinoff with her, and her taking screen time from the regulars was part of the price to be paid for more Sunnydale next year. >at anyrate I do resort to this >"crap" sometimes, like when I pointed out that those who had a death >grip on the idea that "Angel" was no longer part of the Buffyverse no >matter the evidence to the contrary, had a viceral dislike for the >show ("Angel"); I felt for awhile that Angel canon didn't apply to Buffyville anymore and I didn't have a visceral dislike for AtS, though I've gone through my ups and downs with it to be sure. Clearly though, this year Angel and BtVS share canon. >or, conversely, if they were PRO "Angel", a viceral >dislike for BtVS. > >I think it is the same with you and Angel. (Ducks and runs for it). >> Well if you feel that way, you feel that way. Of course our opinions will be affected by who our favorite characters are, or what our favorite storylines are, or whether we prefer 'ships or action, but most intelligent people have more reasons for their opinions than blind allegiance to a character or other agenda. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 01:30:23+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > >I was telling Unbound I didn't like his or her scenario. His. Just so we're clear. <g> Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-04 01:30:23+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (unboundi@aol.com)


>From: fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) > >I was telling Unbound I didn't like his or her scenario. His. Just so we're clear. <g> Unbound I Check out my book about The X-Files at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html

2003-03-04 02:30:09+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Striketoo wrote > >But Angel is not an expert on >metaphysics any more than buffy is. I think he is. Angel seems very interested in religion and spiritual stuff and has expressed some knowledge about them, whereas Buffy totally tunes it out. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 02:30:09+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


Striketoo wrote > >But Angel is not an expert on >metaphysics any more than buffy is. I think he is. Angel seems very interested in religion and spiritual stuff and has expressed some knowledge about them, whereas Buffy totally tunes it out. Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-04 07:03:36-08:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (smaug86@yahoo.com)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030303194007.03580.00000331@mb-fr.aol.com>... > > > >Spike tried to end the world for love, as well. Doing things solely > >for love is not always good. In fact, most of the time it's bad. And > >in the case of Spike and Drusilla it was evil.(Of course, one could > >argue that Soulless Spike was incapable of real emotional love because > >he had no soul and wasn't a human being) > > > >And I'm still not convinced that Spike actually sought out his soul. > >He wanted to end his emotional and physical torment- from Buffy and > >the chip. He got more than he barganined for. > > > >Smaug69 > > > > Stubborn fella, ain't you? What's scary is that in the 17 months I have been posting here, I have been holding back in that area. My mom was probably the one that coined the phrase, "You'd argue with a signpost." And she once bought me a t-shirt that said, "Those of you who think you know everything annoy those of us who actually do." > Won't let go of the old theory for love or money. > <g> > > Anyway, it doesn't really matter to the story by this time (though it did > matter very much to me at the time). I don't think how or why Angel and Spike > got their souls affects their lives now, Spike still seems to think he did it for love. It colors everything he does. > except in the area of whether they >can > enjoy sex with their lady loves. What counts is what these new, ensouled > beings do with their new lives. They can live as good men or bad or neutral, > as they choose. Well, technically they aren't men and can't live... Smaug69(Don't you just love me? :-)

2003-03-04 07:03:36-08:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (smaug86@yahoo.com)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message news:<20030303194007.03580.00000331@mb-fr.aol.com>... > > > >Spike tried to end the world for love, as well. Doing things solely > >for love is not always good. In fact, most of the time it's bad. And > >in the case of Spike and Drusilla it was evil.(Of course, one could > >argue that Soulless Spike was incapable of real emotional love because > >he had no soul and wasn't a human being) > > > >And I'm still not convinced that Spike actually sought out his soul. > >He wanted to end his emotional and physical torment- from Buffy and > >the chip. He got more than he barganined for. > > > >Smaug69 > > > > Stubborn fella, ain't you? What's scary is that in the 17 months I have been posting here, I have been holding back in that area. My mom was probably the one that coined the phrase, "You'd argue with a signpost." And she once bought me a t-shirt that said, "Those of you who think you know everything annoy those of us who actually do." > Won't let go of the old theory for love or money. > <g> > > Anyway, it doesn't really matter to the story by this time (though it did > matter very much to me at the time). I don't think how or why Angel and Spike > got their souls affects their lives now, Spike still seems to think he did it for love. It colors everything he does. > except in the area of whether they >can > enjoy sex with their lady loves. What counts is what these new, ensouled > beings do with their new lives. They can live as good men or bad or neutral, > as they choose. Well, technically they aren't men and can't live... Smaug69(Don't you just love me? :-)

2003-03-04 17:41:43-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >whoa is > >me.. > > OK, I know I've made lots of spelling mistakes since getting a sinus infection > which is putting pressure on my feeble brain, but that was just sad. > > To punish myself, I am going to type "Riley is better than Spike." > There I did > it. That'll teach me. If only spelling reform had been achieved, you'd be one "Riley is better than Spike" better off. }:) -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-03-04 17:41:43-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >whoa is > >me.. > > OK, I know I've made lots of spelling mistakes since getting a sinus infection > which is putting pressure on my feeble brain, but that was just sad. > > To punish myself, I am going to type "Riley is better than Spike." > There I did > it. That'll teach me. If only spelling reform had been achieved, you'd be one "Riley is better than Spike" better off. }:) -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-03-04 20:02:29-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (MiJM@webtv.net)


I stopped reading ME's interviews when they started lying threw there teeth.

2003-03-04 20:02:29-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (MiJM@webtv.net)


I stopped reading ME's interviews when they started lying threw there teeth.

2003-03-04 22:23:09-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - ("S.O'C" <s.oc@nospama.com>)


MiJM@webtv.net wrote: > I stopped reading ME's interviews when they started lying threw there > teeth. ??????????

2003-03-04 22:23:09-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - ("S.O'C" <s.oc@nospama.com>)


MiJM@webtv.net wrote: > I stopped reading ME's interviews when they started lying threw there > teeth. ??????????

2003-03-04 22:55:38-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


MiJM@webtv.net writes: > I stopped reading ME's interviews when they started lying threw there > teeth. They're not *that* old. I'm told that several ME writers do not even wear dentures. }:) -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-03-04 22:55:38-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Tom Breton <tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com>)


MiJM@webtv.net writes: > I stopped reading ME's interviews when they started lying threw there > teeth. They're not *that* old. I'm told that several ME writers do not even wear dentures. }:) -- Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom

2003-03-05 00:54:04+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com >Date: 3/4/2003 2:41 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <m3fzq292l4.fsf@panix.com> > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >> >whoa is >> >me.. >> >> OK, I know I've made lots of spelling mistakes since getting a sinus >infection >> which is putting pressure on my feeble brain, but that was just sad. >> >> To punish myself, I am going to type "Riley is better than Spike." >> There I did >> it. That'll teach me. > >If only spelling reform had been achieved, you'd be one "Riley is >better than Spike" better off. }:) > At least I didn't spell it Reilly. > > > > > > Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-05 00:54:04+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (fylmfan@aol.comspam)


>Subject: Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul >From: Tom Breton tehom@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com >Date: 3/4/2003 2:41 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <m3fzq292l4.fsf@panix.com> > >fylmfan@aol.comspam (Rose) writes: > >> >whoa is >> >me.. >> >> OK, I know I've made lots of spelling mistakes since getting a sinus >infection >> which is putting pressure on my feeble brain, but that was just sad. >> >> To punish myself, I am going to type "Riley is better than Spike." >> There I did >> it. That'll teach me. > >If only spelling reform had been achieved, you'd be one "Riley is >better than Spike" better off. }:) > At least I didn't spell it Reilly. > > > > > > Rose It's not Giles, no, it's not "Mine is a redemptive struggle. These ropes itch." -- Andrew

2003-03-05 06:12:04+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, MiJM@webtv.net wrote in article <28291-3E654CA5-611@storefull-2294.public.lawson.webtv.net>... > I stopped reading ME's interviews when they started lying threw there > teeth. > > I know what you mean. I disregard what they say when it concerns on- going plot developments. Rather than lie and build expectations I would prefer they say nothing. But I do enjoy hearing what they say about past episodes, production techniques, and stuff of that sort. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-05 06:12:04+00:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, MiJM@webtv.net wrote in article <28291-3E654CA5-611@storefull-2294.public.lawson.webtv.net>... > I stopped reading ME's interviews when they started lying threw there > teeth. > > I know what you mean. I disregard what they say when it concerns on- going plot developments. Rather than lie and build expectations I would prefer they say nothing. But I do enjoy hearing what they say about past episodes, production techniques, and stuff of that sort. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-03-05 18:00:51-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Sean Daugherty <sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu>)


On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 20:02:29 -0500 (EST), MiJM@webtv.net wrote: >I stopped reading ME's interviews when they started lying threw there >teeth. Sooo... before season one, then? :) -- Sean Christian Daugherty <sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu> "I am the silence that is incomprehensible, and the idea whose remembrance is frequent. I am the voice whose sound is manifold, and the word whose appearance is multiple. I am the utterance of my name," - "The Thunder, Perfect Mind"

2003-03-05 18:00:51-05:00 - Re: Angel vs. Spike: Two Vampires With A Soul - (Sean Daugherty <sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu>)


On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 20:02:29 -0500 (EST), MiJM@webtv.net wrote: >I stopped reading ME's interviews when they started lying threw there >teeth. Sooo... before season one, then? :) -- Sean Christian Daugherty <sean.daugherty@oberlin.edu> "I am the silence that is incomprehensible, and the idea whose remembrance is frequent. I am the voice whose sound is manifold, and the word whose appearance is multiple. I am the utterance of my name," - "The Thunder, Perfect Mind"