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2003-05-02 19:05:28-07:00 - What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. JLB

2003-05-02 19:05:28-07:00 - What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. JLB

2003-05-02 20:05:17-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last twoe... - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Kevin wrote: > > I don't think Willow could do Caleb like Warren, at least not without > going bad like before. Those were the bad powers. I think the problem is that it's Buffy's show, not Willow's, so they'll keep finding ways to disguise that fact that Willow may have the power to defeat Caleb. > Caleb is more than just a preacher. Yeah they should be on guard > against the Bringers, but they are still working with girls remember, > none of which besides Buffy and Faith have any real shot at hurting > anyone. Unless they arm them with modern weapons, flame throwers etc. that would give them capabilities that even Buffy and Faith don't have. > Since the town is almost empty it would make sense to take some guns > from somewhere and teach the girls some target practice. It's ridiculous that this hasn't been done already. They don't need an empty town, just their local gun range. Nearly all ranges offer lessons > Other than that > the real way to defeat Caleb isn't gonna be just a brawl to the death. > When they talk about power its more than brute strength they are gonna > need.

2003-05-02 20:05:17-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last twoe... - (Carmikl <Carmikl@rcn.com>)


Kevin wrote: > > I don't think Willow could do Caleb like Warren, at least not without > going bad like before. Those were the bad powers. I think the problem is that it's Buffy's show, not Willow's, so they'll keep finding ways to disguise that fact that Willow may have the power to defeat Caleb. > Caleb is more than just a preacher. Yeah they should be on guard > against the Bringers, but they are still working with girls remember, > none of which besides Buffy and Faith have any real shot at hurting > anyone. Unless they arm them with modern weapons, flame throwers etc. that would give them capabilities that even Buffy and Faith don't have. > Since the town is almost empty it would make sense to take some guns > from somewhere and teach the girls some target practice. It's ridiculous that this hasn't been done already. They don't need an empty town, just their local gun range. Nearly all ranges offer lessons > Other than that > the real way to defeat Caleb isn't gonna be just a brawl to the death. > When they talk about power its more than brute strength they are gonna > need.

2003-05-02 22:13:17-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two e... - (SuperPredator03@webtv.net)


I don't think Willow could do Caleb like Warren, at least not without going bad like before. Those were the bad powers. Caleb is more than just a preacher. Yeah they should be on guard against the Bringers, but they are still working with girls remember, none of which besides Buffy and Faith have any real shot at hurting anyone. Since the town is almost empty it would make sense to take some guns from somewhere and teach the girls some target practice. Other than that the real way to defeat Caleb isn't gonna be just a brawl to the death. When they talk about power its more than brute strength they are gonna need.

2003-05-02 22:13:17-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two e... - (SuperPredator03@webtv.net)


I don't think Willow could do Caleb like Warren, at least not without going bad like before. Those were the bad powers. Caleb is more than just a preacher. Yeah they should be on guard against the Bringers, but they are still working with girls remember, none of which besides Buffy and Faith have any real shot at hurting anyone. Since the town is almost empty it would make sense to take some guns from somewhere and teach the girls some target practice. Other than that the real way to defeat Caleb isn't gonna be just a brawl to the death. When they talk about power its more than brute strength they are gonna need.

2003-05-03 02:40:02+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > JLB > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of the room until Buffy walked out the door. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-03 02:40:02+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > JLB > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of the room until Buffy walked out the door. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-03 04:53:00-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"brad" <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com> wrote in message news:<3eb336a7_1@news.iprimus.com.au>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > i think it's pretty damn clear that caleb is *not* "just a preacher". and > therein lies my reasoning. He's not? THen what sort of demon is he? When has the FE ever launched an attack like this before? I say he's just a preacher meaning you aren't going to find him in any big old dusty book that spells out his weaknesses. JLB

2003-05-03 04:53:00-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"brad" <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com> wrote in message news:<3eb336a7_1@news.iprimus.com.au>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > i think it's pretty damn clear that caleb is *not* "just a preacher". and > therein lies my reasoning. He's not? THen what sort of demon is he? When has the FE ever launched an attack like this before? I say he's just a preacher meaning you aren't going to find him in any big old dusty book that spells out his weaknesses. JLB

2003-05-03 04:53:58-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > JLB > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > the room until Buffy walked out the door. I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to me just a question of dying now or dying later. JLB

2003-05-03 04:53:58-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > JLB > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > the room until Buffy walked out the door. I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to me just a question of dying now or dying later. JLB

2003-05-03 13:25:15+10:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (brad <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. i think it's pretty damn clear that caleb is *not* "just a preacher". and therein lies my reasoning. -- brad [http://callmebetty.blogspot.com] cheese > sausages

2003-05-03 13:25:15+10:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (brad <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. i think it's pretty damn clear that caleb is *not* "just a preacher". and therein lies my reasoning. -- brad [http://callmebetty.blogspot.com] cheese > sausages

2003-05-03 13:47:39-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"brad" <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com> wrote in message news:<3eb3dd41$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305030352.29111290@posting.google.com... > > "brad" <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com> wrote in message > news:<3eb336a7_1@news.iprimus.com.au>... > > > i think it's pretty damn clear that caleb is *not* "just a preacher". > and > > > therein lies my reasoning. > > > > > > He's not? THen what sort of demon is he? When has the FE ever > > launched an attack like this before? I say he's just a preacher > > meaning you aren't going to find him in any big old dusty book that > > spells out his weaknesses. > > > > well that's all i meant. sure, he's *human* but he's got some special kinda > shit going down, so i think it's worth investigating is all. the household's > reaction to buffy *was* bullshit though - she was wrong (imho), but she did > *not* deserve to be publicy slapped down like that! But I don't see any way to legitmately investigate it and I also doubt a failry smart fella like him would be flunting his power. I mean did he do anything that suggested superstrength to the SIT he picked up? JLB

2003-05-03 13:47:39-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"brad" <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com> wrote in message news:<3eb3dd41$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305030352.29111290@posting.google.com... > > "brad" <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com> wrote in message > news:<3eb336a7_1@news.iprimus.com.au>... > > > i think it's pretty damn clear that caleb is *not* "just a preacher". > and > > > therein lies my reasoning. > > > > > > He's not? THen what sort of demon is he? When has the FE ever > > launched an attack like this before? I say he's just a preacher > > meaning you aren't going to find him in any big old dusty book that > > spells out his weaknesses. > > > > well that's all i meant. sure, he's *human* but he's got some special kinda > shit going down, so i think it's worth investigating is all. the household's > reaction to buffy *was* bullshit though - she was wrong (imho), but she did > *not* deserve to be publicy slapped down like that! But I don't see any way to legitmately investigate it and I also doubt a failry smart fella like him would be flunting his power. I mean did he do anything that suggested superstrength to the SIT he picked up? JLB

2003-05-03 14:23:57-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Chelsea Christenson <Chelsea.Christenson@oracle.com>)


JLB wrote: > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > idea to go on the attack. "Go on the attack" is a strategy. "Attack the vineyard again" is a tactic. The group disagreed with the tactic. One thing I remember reading about the military: Soldiers accept the possibility that they're going to die in battle. What they fear is dying uselessly. What the group saw in Buffy's plan is a high likelihood of dying for nothing. They didn't defeat Caleb before, and they haven't worked out how to defeat him now.

2003-05-03 14:23:57-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Chelsea Christenson <Chelsea.Christenson@oracle.com>)


JLB wrote: > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > idea to go on the attack. "Go on the attack" is a strategy. "Attack the vineyard again" is a tactic. The group disagreed with the tactic. One thing I remember reading about the military: Soldiers accept the possibility that they're going to die in battle. What they fear is dying uselessly. What the group saw in Buffy's plan is a high likelihood of dying for nothing. They didn't defeat Caleb before, and they haven't worked out how to defeat him now.

2003-05-03 15:19:17-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (paulfxfoley@aol.com)


barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > idea to go on the attack. The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a second time. It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. --Paul -------------------------------- On her white Breast a sparkling Cross she wore / That Jews might kiss, and Infidels adore. --Alexander Pope

2003-05-03 15:19:17-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (paulfxfoley@aol.com)


barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > idea to go on the attack. The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a second time. It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. --Paul -------------------------------- On her white Breast a sparkling Cross she wore / That Jews might kiss, and Infidels adore. --Alexander Pope

2003-05-03 18:18:07-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > idea to go on the attack. > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > second time. > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > --Paul The first night she was in Sunnydale she got her butt handed to her by Luke. The next night they followed Buffy to the Bronze. JLB > -------------------------------- > On her white Breast a sparkling Cross she wore / That Jews might kiss, > and Infidels adore. > --Alexander Pope

2003-05-03 18:18:07-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > idea to go on the attack. > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > second time. > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > --Paul The first night she was in Sunnydale she got her butt handed to her by Luke. The next night they followed Buffy to the Bronze. JLB > -------------------------------- > On her white Breast a sparkling Cross she wore / That Jews might kiss, > and Infidels adore. > --Alexander Pope

2003-05-04 01:16:05+10:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (brad <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305030352.29111290@posting.google.com... > "brad" <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com> wrote in message news:<3eb336a7_1@news.iprimus.com.au>... > > i think it's pretty damn clear that caleb is *not* "just a preacher". and > > therein lies my reasoning. > > > He's not? THen what sort of demon is he? When has the FE ever > launched an attack like this before? I say he's just a preacher > meaning you aren't going to find him in any big old dusty book that > spells out his weaknesses. > well that's all i meant. sure, he's *human* but he's got some special kinda shit going down, so i think it's worth investigating is all. the household's reaction to buffy *was* bullshit though - she was wrong (imho), but she did *not* deserve to be publicy slapped down like that! -- brad [http://callmebetty.blogspot.com] cheese > sausages

2003-05-04 01:16:05+10:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (brad <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305030352.29111290@posting.google.com... > "brad" <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com> wrote in message news:<3eb336a7_1@news.iprimus.com.au>... > > i think it's pretty damn clear that caleb is *not* "just a preacher". and > > therein lies my reasoning. > > > He's not? THen what sort of demon is he? When has the FE ever > launched an attack like this before? I say he's just a preacher > meaning you aren't going to find him in any big old dusty book that > spells out his weaknesses. > well that's all i meant. sure, he's *human* but he's got some special kinda shit going down, so i think it's worth investigating is all. the household's reaction to buffy *was* bullshit though - she was wrong (imho), but she did *not* deserve to be publicy slapped down like that! -- brad [http://callmebetty.blogspot.com] cheese > sausages

2003-05-04 08:03:53+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k <o>, l, c, z, y, k@interaccess.com)


On 3 May 2003 04:53:00 -0700, barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote: >"brad" <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com> wrote in message news:<3eb336a7_1@news.iprimus.com.au>... >> "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message >> news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... >> > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight >> > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good >> > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house >> > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this >> > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have >> > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know >> > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less >> > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back >> > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? >> > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think >> > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. >> >> >> i think it's pretty damn clear that caleb is *not* "just a preacher". and >> therein lies my reasoning. > > >He's not? THen what sort of demon is he? When has the FE ever >launched an attack like this before? I say he's just a preacher >meaning you aren't going to find him in any big old dusty book that >spells out his weaknesses. > >JLB My suspicion is the object that Caleb has that the monastary text talked about. He can't weild it but a sideeffect of the power of the thing is that just possesing it gives him superhuman strength.

2003-05-04 08:03:53+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (T'h'a'd'd'e'u's L O'l'c'z'y'k <o>, l, c, z, y, k@interaccess.com)


On 3 May 2003 04:53:00 -0700, barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote: >"brad" <aprettyfunnyemailaddress@anotherfunnyword.com> wrote in message news:<3eb336a7_1@news.iprimus.com.au>... >> "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message >> news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... >> > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight >> > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good >> > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house >> > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this >> > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have >> > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know >> > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less >> > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back >> > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? >> > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think >> > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. >> >> >> i think it's pretty damn clear that caleb is *not* "just a preacher". and >> therein lies my reasoning. > > >He's not? THen what sort of demon is he? When has the FE ever >launched an attack like this before? I say he's just a preacher >meaning you aren't going to find him in any big old dusty book that >spells out his weaknesses. > >JLB My suspicion is the object that Caleb has that the monastary text talked about. He can't weild it but a sideeffect of the power of the thing is that just possesing it gives him superhuman strength.

2003-05-04 16:48:04+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Chelsea.Christenson@oracle.com wrote in article <3EB4093D.88176889@oracle.com>... > JLB wrote: > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > idea to go on the attack. > > "Go on the attack" is a strategy. "Attack the vineyard again" is a > tactic. The group disagreed with the tactic. > > One thing I remember reading about the military: Soldiers accept the > possibility that they're going to die in battle. What they fear is dying > uselessly. What the group saw in Buffy's plan is a high likelihood of > dying for nothing. They didn't defeat Caleb before, and they haven't > worked out how to defeat him now. > > I apologize for the quibble, but attacking the vineyard again is a strategy: it is the plan by which Buffy hopes to take down Caleb and the First Evil. How they execute that plan encapsulates the tactics. A tactic is the mean by which the end is accomplished. The strategy is the design and the tactics are its implementation. So in Buffy's case, the design of once again attacking Caleb where he lives achieves the goal of bringing him down. Not to put words in Buffy's mouth, but a frontal assault by a vanguard of potential slayers supported by magicks supplied by Willow from the rear could be an example of the tactics used in accomplishing the plan. Buffy made clear that attacking the vineyard again was, indeed, the plan. She rejected the possibility of another plan. And this was the cause of her downfall as the leader. Buffy did invite suggestions on breaking down the plan, so she had not predetermined the tactics. If the group were agreeable to the plan then perhaps something along the lines of the example I provided above may have been suggested. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-04 16:48:04+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, Chelsea.Christenson@oracle.com wrote in article <3EB4093D.88176889@oracle.com>... > JLB wrote: > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > idea to go on the attack. > > "Go on the attack" is a strategy. "Attack the vineyard again" is a > tactic. The group disagreed with the tactic. > > One thing I remember reading about the military: Soldiers accept the > possibility that they're going to die in battle. What they fear is dying > uselessly. What the group saw in Buffy's plan is a high likelihood of > dying for nothing. They didn't defeat Caleb before, and they haven't > worked out how to defeat him now. > > I apologize for the quibble, but attacking the vineyard again is a strategy: it is the plan by which Buffy hopes to take down Caleb and the First Evil. How they execute that plan encapsulates the tactics. A tactic is the mean by which the end is accomplished. The strategy is the design and the tactics are its implementation. So in Buffy's case, the design of once again attacking Caleb where he lives achieves the goal of bringing him down. Not to put words in Buffy's mouth, but a frontal assault by a vanguard of potential slayers supported by magicks supplied by Willow from the rear could be an example of the tactics used in accomplishing the plan. Buffy made clear that attacking the vineyard again was, indeed, the plan. She rejected the possibility of another plan. And this was the cause of her downfall as the leader. Buffy did invite suggestions on breaking down the plan, so she had not predetermined the tactics. If the group were agreeable to the plan then perhaps something along the lines of the example I provided above may have been suggested. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-04 18:10:12-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. As Willow learned late last year, you don't kill humans, even evil ones. Arnold Kim

2003-05-04 18:10:12-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. As Willow learned late last year, you don't kill humans, even evil ones. Arnold Kim

2003-05-04 18:18:27-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with guys > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they didn't, > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack on an > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die now. > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how to > beat my opponent. > > Arnold Kim 90% of the Watcher's Council's materials have been destroyed and the First first appeared in season 3, and simply vanished, not defeated it just left. If thay hadn't follwed up on that during the down times of summer and when activity was slow I'd say they were idiots. I would also say that if Drac showed back up and they didn't know how to kill them. They also have no reason to belive Caleb can't be beaten in the standard ways. It's just they need more power to do it. I stand by my belief that just staying in waiting for something to happen is more dangerous. The FE's minions could pin them in at any time it chooses. JLB

2003-05-04 18:18:27-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with guys > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they didn't, > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack on an > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die now. > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how to > beat my opponent. > > Arnold Kim 90% of the Watcher's Council's materials have been destroyed and the First first appeared in season 3, and simply vanished, not defeated it just left. If thay hadn't follwed up on that during the down times of summer and when activity was slow I'd say they were idiots. I would also say that if Drac showed back up and they didn't know how to kill them. They also have no reason to belive Caleb can't be beaten in the standard ways. It's just they need more power to do it. I stand by my belief that just staying in waiting for something to happen is more dangerous. The FE's minions could pin them in at any time it chooses. JLB

2003-05-04 18:19:01-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > me just a question of dying now or dying later. They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with guys like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they didn't, they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack on an opponent they had no idea how to fight. I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die now. And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how to beat my opponent. Arnold Kim

2003-05-04 18:19:01-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > me just a question of dying now or dying later. They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with guys like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they didn't, they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack on an opponent they had no idea how to fight. I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die now. And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how to beat my opponent. Arnold Kim

2003-05-04 18:21:12-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b944jd$631$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305031718.7c7e3bc8@posting.google.com... > > paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message > news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message > news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > idea to go on the attack. > > > > > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > > > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > > > second time. > > > > > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > > > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > > > > > > > --Paul > > > Buffy was just throwing herself into the lion's den, rather than leading > everyone else in the same direction. > > D) There would have been an APOCALYPSE if they didn't help out at the Bronze > that night (Or, at the very best, dozens of people would have been killed.) > There would not have been an apocalypse if they decided not to attack the > vineyard on that particular night. There would have been an Apocalypse if BUFFY didn't go to the Bronze that night. Willow and Xander didn't need to go, in fact it would've been better if they hadn't, that's just giving the vamps more potential victims, and from later Watcher's I get the feeling Giles was supposed to be at home waiting for her report. JLB > > Arnold Kim > > Arnold Kim

2003-05-04 18:21:12-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b944jd$631$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305031718.7c7e3bc8@posting.google.com... > > paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message > news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message > news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > idea to go on the attack. > > > > > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > > > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > > > second time. > > > > > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > > > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > > > > > > > --Paul > > > Buffy was just throwing herself into the lion's den, rather than leading > everyone else in the same direction. > > D) There would have been an APOCALYPSE if they didn't help out at the Bronze > that night (Or, at the very best, dozens of people would have been killed.) > There would not have been an apocalypse if they decided not to attack the > vineyard on that particular night. There would have been an Apocalypse if BUFFY didn't go to the Bronze that night. Willow and Xander didn't need to go, in fact it would've been better if they hadn't, that's just giving the vamps more potential victims, and from later Watcher's I get the feeling Giles was supposed to be at home waiting for her report. JLB > > Arnold Kim > > Arnold Kim

2003-05-04 18:23:39-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b9433e$35e$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > As Willow learned late last year, you don't kill humans, even evil ones. > > Arnold Kim I hate to spoiler you if you haven't been but Buffy's going to gut this guy then cut him in half vertically. So that shoots that to hell. Maybe it's a token for the fans who thought Warren deserved to die last year. JLB

2003-05-04 18:23:39-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b9433e$35e$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > As Willow learned late last year, you don't kill humans, even evil ones. > > Arnold Kim I hate to spoiler you if you haven't been but Buffy's going to gut this guy then cut him in half vertically. So that shoots that to hell. Maybe it's a token for the fans who thought Warren deserved to die last year. JLB

2003-05-04 18:35:46-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305031718.7c7e3bc8@posting.google.com... > paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > idea to go on the attack. > > > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > > second time. > > > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > > > > --Paul > > The first night she was in Sunnydale she got her butt handed to her by > Luke. The next night they followed Buffy to the Bronze. A) No one died in that fight, or was even maimed. That's a big difference there. B) Xander and Willow didn't even see that fight. They had cleared out of the mausoleum by then. C) Buffy was clearly trying to put only herself on the line- all Xander, Willow, and Giles were expected to do was to get everyone out. In fact, throughout the first couple of episodes, Buffy makes it fairly clear that she wants Xander and Willow in as little danger as possible. Buffy was just throwing herself into the lion's den, rather than leading everyone else in the same direction. D) There would have been an APOCALYPSE if they didn't help out at the Bronze that night (Or, at the very best, dozens of people would have been killed.) There would not have been an apocalypse if they decided not to attack the vineyard on that particular night. Arnold Kim Arnold Kim

2003-05-04 18:35:46-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305031718.7c7e3bc8@posting.google.com... > paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > idea to go on the attack. > > > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > > second time. > > > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > > > > --Paul > > The first night she was in Sunnydale she got her butt handed to her by > Luke. The next night they followed Buffy to the Bronze. A) No one died in that fight, or was even maimed. That's a big difference there. B) Xander and Willow didn't even see that fight. They had cleared out of the mausoleum by then. C) Buffy was clearly trying to put only herself on the line- all Xander, Willow, and Giles were expected to do was to get everyone out. In fact, throughout the first couple of episodes, Buffy makes it fairly clear that she wants Xander and Willow in as little danger as possible. Buffy was just throwing herself into the lion's den, rather than leading everyone else in the same direction. D) There would have been an APOCALYPSE if they didn't help out at the Bronze that night (Or, at the very best, dozens of people would have been killed.) There would not have been an apocalypse if they decided not to attack the vineyard on that particular night. Arnold Kim Arnold Kim

2003-05-04 22:31:40-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com> wrote: > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with guys > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they didn't, > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack on an > opponent they had no idea how to fight. They've been trying to research the First for months, and come up with basically squat. There is very little information available on it. More researching at that point would most likely be fruitless. Now that they've got some information on Caleb, they can start to try and come at it from a different angle. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-04 22:31:40-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>)


In article <b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com> wrote: > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with guys > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they didn't, > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack on an > opponent they had no idea how to fight. They've been trying to research the First for months, and come up with basically squat. There is very little information available on it. More researching at that point would most likely be fruitless. Now that they've got some information on Caleb, they can start to try and come at it from a different angle. -- Don Sample, dsample@synapse.net Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/ Quando omni flunkus moritati

2003-05-04 23:21:05+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, kim5@erols.com wrote in article <b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with guys > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they didn't, > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack on an > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die now. > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how to > beat my opponent. > What Arnold said. That and they still do not know that much about Caleb. That was why Giles sent Spike up to Gilroy: to gather new intelligence about Caleb. All the gang knows about Caleb at this time is that he is more than capable of kicking their collective assess without suffering serious injury. Do you think mounting an immediate assault will tell them much more? This brings to mind something Faith said in Los Angeles about what she learned during "murder rehab" in prison: performing the same task the same way over and over again expecting different results is a form of insanity. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-04 23:21:05+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, kim5@erols.com wrote in article <b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with guys > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they didn't, > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack on an > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die now. > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how to > beat my opponent. > What Arnold said. That and they still do not know that much about Caleb. That was why Giles sent Spike up to Gilroy: to gather new intelligence about Caleb. All the gang knows about Caleb at this time is that he is more than capable of kicking their collective assess without suffering serious injury. Do you think mounting an immediate assault will tell them much more? This brings to mind something Faith said in Los Angeles about what she learned during "murder rehab" in prison: performing the same task the same way over and over again expecting different results is a form of insanity. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-05 02:13:36-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305041723.7751ef63@posting.google.com... > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b9433e$35e$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > As Willow learned late last year, you don't kill humans, even evil ones. > > > > Arnold Kim > > I hate to spoiler you if you haven't been but Then don't. Geez. Is a warning of some kind really that much of a big deal? And no, the one in the subject header doesn't count, since it seems to have been a spoiler warning for the previous two episodes. Arnold Kim

2003-05-05 02:13:36-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305041723.7751ef63@posting.google.com... > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b9433e$35e$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > news:c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com... > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > As Willow learned late last year, you don't kill humans, even evil ones. > > > > Arnold Kim > > I hate to spoiler you if you haven't been but Then don't. Geez. Is a warning of some kind really that much of a big deal? And no, the one in the subject header doesn't count, since it seems to have been a spoiler warning for the previous two episodes. Arnold Kim

2003-05-05 02:17:06-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305041721.205cc0f0@posting.google.com... > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b944jd$631$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > news:c7b2ff96.0305031718.7c7e3bc8@posting.google.com... > > > paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message > > news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > > > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message > > news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > idea to go on the attack. > > > > > > > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > > > > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > > > > second time. > > > > > > > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > > > > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > > > > > > > > > > --Paul > > > > > > Buffy was just throwing herself into the lion's den, rather than leading > > everyone else in the same direction. > > > > D) There would have been an APOCALYPSE if they didn't help out at the Bronze > > that night (Or, at the very best, dozens of people would have been killed.) > > There would not have been an apocalypse if they decided not to attack the > > vineyard on that particular night. > > There would have been an Apocalypse if BUFFY didn't go to the Bronze > that night. Willow and Xander didn't need to go, in fact it would've > been better if they hadn't, that's just giving the vamps more > potential victims, and from later Watcher's I get the feeling Giles > was supposed to be at home waiting for her report. If it weren't for Xander, Willow, and Giles clearing out the Bronze, Buffy would have had to worry about more civilian casualties on top of having to fight Luke, which would make it harder to fight Luke, and thus harder to prevent the apocalypse. And even ignoring that, there's still the fact that dozens of people would have been killed had they not come. Furthermore, they weren't expected to go on a full-on attack, and they didn't. Buffy: "You get the exit cleared and the people out. That's all! Don't go Wild Bunch on me." Arnold Kim

2003-05-05 02:17:06-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305041721.205cc0f0@posting.google.com... > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b944jd$631$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > news:c7b2ff96.0305031718.7c7e3bc8@posting.google.com... > > > paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message > > news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > > > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message > > news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > idea to go on the attack. > > > > > > > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > > > > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > > > > second time. > > > > > > > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > > > > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > > > > > > > > > > --Paul > > > > > > Buffy was just throwing herself into the lion's den, rather than leading > > everyone else in the same direction. > > > > D) There would have been an APOCALYPSE if they didn't help out at the Bronze > > that night (Or, at the very best, dozens of people would have been killed.) > > There would not have been an apocalypse if they decided not to attack the > > vineyard on that particular night. > > There would have been an Apocalypse if BUFFY didn't go to the Bronze > that night. Willow and Xander didn't need to go, in fact it would've > been better if they hadn't, that's just giving the vamps more > potential victims, and from later Watcher's I get the feeling Giles > was supposed to be at home waiting for her report. If it weren't for Xander, Willow, and Giles clearing out the Bronze, Buffy would have had to worry about more civilian casualties on top of having to fight Luke, which would make it harder to fight Luke, and thus harder to prevent the apocalypse. And even ignoring that, there's still the fact that dozens of people would have been killed had they not come. Furthermore, they weren't expected to go on a full-on attack, and they didn't. Buffy: "You get the exit cleared and the people out. That's all! Don't go Wild Bunch on me." Arnold Kim

2003-05-05 03:29:32+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done? [JLB SPOILS FINALE] - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in article <c7b2ff96.0305041723.7751ef63@posting.google.com>... [elided] > > I hate to spoiler you if you haven't been but Buffy's going to [elided text posted by someone WHO JUST DOES NOT GET IT] > JLB > Sigh. So tell me, what did you prove by posting this without spoiler warnings? -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-05 03:29:32+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done? [JLB SPOILS FINALE] - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in article <c7b2ff96.0305041723.7751ef63@posting.google.com>... [elided] > > I hate to spoiler you if you haven't been but Buffy's going to [elided text posted by someone WHO JUST DOES NOT GET IT] > JLB > Sigh. So tell me, what did you prove by posting this without spoiler warnings? -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-05 12:13:26-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305041718.1b8c7243@posting.google.com... > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with guys > > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they didn't, > > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack on an > > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die now. > > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how to > > beat my opponent. > > > > Arnold Kim > > 90% of the Watcher's Council's materials have been destroyed and the > First first appeared in season 3, and simply vanished, not defeated it > just left. If thay hadn't follwed up on that during the down times of > summer and when activity was slow I'd say they were idiots. I would > also say that if Drac showed back up and they didn't know how to kill > them. They also have no reason to belive Caleb can't be beaten in the > standard ways. It's just they need more power to do it. I stand by > my belief that just staying in waiting for something to happen is more > dangerous. The FE's minions could pin them in at any time it chooses. Which, odds are, would not have been on that precise day of the planned second attack. It might have been a couple of days later. Even if it's a _day_ later, that's one extra day to figure out how to beat your opponent. And since they would have gotten slaughtered again (no reason to expect otherwise) they had nothing to lose. Arnold Kim

2003-05-05 12:13:26-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305041718.1b8c7243@posting.google.com... > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that house > > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and this > > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers have > > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they know > > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a gun? > > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the vineyard > > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. It > > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else resisted > > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen out of > > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with guys > > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they didn't, > > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack on an > > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die now. > > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how to > > beat my opponent. > > > > Arnold Kim > > 90% of the Watcher's Council's materials have been destroyed and the > First first appeared in season 3, and simply vanished, not defeated it > just left. If thay hadn't follwed up on that during the down times of > summer and when activity was slow I'd say they were idiots. I would > also say that if Drac showed back up and they didn't know how to kill > them. They also have no reason to belive Caleb can't be beaten in the > standard ways. It's just they need more power to do it. I stand by > my belief that just staying in waiting for something to happen is more > dangerous. The FE's minions could pin them in at any time it chooses. Which, odds are, would not have been on that precise day of the planned second attack. It might have been a couple of days later. Even if it's a _day_ later, that's one extra day to figure out how to beat your opponent. And since they would have gotten slaughtered again (no reason to expect otherwise) they had nothing to lose. Arnold Kim

2003-05-05 14:54:07-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b962ih$sac$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305041718.1b8c7243@posting.google.com... > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > news:<b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that > house > > > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and > this > > > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers > have > > > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they > know > > > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a > gun? > > > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the > vineyard > > > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. > It > > > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else > resisted > > > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen > out of > > > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > > > > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with > guys > > > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they > didn't, > > > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack > on an > > > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > > > > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die > now. > > > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how > to > > > beat my opponent. > > > > > > Arnold Kim > > > > 90% of the Watcher's Council's materials have been destroyed and the > > First first appeared in season 3, and simply vanished, not defeated it > > just left. If thay hadn't follwed up on that during the down times of > > summer and when activity was slow I'd say they were idiots. I would > > also say that if Drac showed back up and they didn't know how to kill > > them. They also have no reason to belive Caleb can't be beaten in the > > standard ways. It's just they need more power to do it. I stand by > > my belief that just staying in waiting for something to happen is more > > dangerous. The FE's minions could pin them in at any time it chooses. > > Which, odds are, would not have been on that precise day of the planned > second attack. It might have been a couple of days later. Even if it's a > _day_ later, that's one extra day to figure out how to beat your opponent. > And since they would have gotten slaughtered again (no reason to expect > otherwise) they had nothing to lose. > > Arnold Kim Xander deciding to bring Anya's gun wouldn't make a difference? Willow insisting she go along wouldn't make a differnce. And the flaw with your plan is they're pinned inside the house to worried about trying to survive to launch whatever plans they have. JLB

2003-05-05 14:54:07-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b962ih$sac$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305041718.1b8c7243@posting.google.com... > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > news:<b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that > house > > > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and > this > > > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers > have > > > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they > know > > > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a > gun? > > > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the > vineyard > > > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. > It > > > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else > resisted > > > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen > out of > > > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > > > > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with > guys > > > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they > didn't, > > > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack > on an > > > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > > > > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die > now. > > > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how > to > > > beat my opponent. > > > > > > Arnold Kim > > > > 90% of the Watcher's Council's materials have been destroyed and the > > First first appeared in season 3, and simply vanished, not defeated it > > just left. If thay hadn't follwed up on that during the down times of > > summer and when activity was slow I'd say they were idiots. I would > > also say that if Drac showed back up and they didn't know how to kill > > them. They also have no reason to belive Caleb can't be beaten in the > > standard ways. It's just they need more power to do it. I stand by > > my belief that just staying in waiting for something to happen is more > > dangerous. The FE's minions could pin them in at any time it chooses. > > Which, odds are, would not have been on that precise day of the planned > second attack. It might have been a couple of days later. Even if it's a > _day_ later, that's one extra day to figure out how to beat your opponent. > And since they would have gotten slaughtered again (no reason to expect > otherwise) they had nothing to lose. > > Arnold Kim Xander deciding to bring Anya's gun wouldn't make a difference? Willow insisting she go along wouldn't make a differnce. And the flaw with your plan is they're pinned inside the house to worried about trying to survive to launch whatever plans they have. JLB

2003-05-05 14:55:24-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b94vkd$4rd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305041721.205cc0f0@posting.google.com... > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > news:<b944jd$631$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305031718.7c7e3bc8@posting.google.com... > > > > paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message > news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > > > > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message > news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > > idea to go on the attack. > > > > > > > > > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > > > > > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > > > > > second time. > > > > > > > > > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > > > > > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Paul > > > > > > > > Buffy was just throwing herself into the lion's den, rather than leading > > > everyone else in the same direction. > > > > > > D) There would have been an APOCALYPSE if they didn't help out at the > Bronze > > > that night (Or, at the very best, dozens of people would have been > killed.) > > > There would not have been an apocalypse if they decided not to attack > the > > > vineyard on that particular night. > > > > There would have been an Apocalypse if BUFFY didn't go to the Bronze > > that night. Willow and Xander didn't need to go, in fact it would've > > been better if they hadn't, that's just giving the vamps more > > potential victims, and from later Watcher's I get the feeling Giles > > was supposed to be at home waiting for her report. > > If it weren't for Xander, Willow, and Giles clearing out the Bronze, Buffy > would have had to worry about more civilian casualties on top of having to > fight Luke, which would make it harder to fight Luke, and thus harder to > prevent the apocalypse. And even ignoring that, there's still the fact that > dozens of people would have been killed had they not come. > > Furthermore, they weren't expected to go on a full-on attack, and they > didn't. > > Buffy: "You get the exit cleared and the people out. That's all! Don't go > Wild Bunch on me." > > Arnold Kim The point is they went inside a building full of vampires, to take away the vampires food supply with a girl they'd met at most two days before. This is seven years later. It's a trust thing. JLB

2003-05-05 14:55:24-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b94vkd$4rd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305041721.205cc0f0@posting.google.com... > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > news:<b944jd$631$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305031718.7c7e3bc8@posting.google.com... > > > > paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message > news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > > > > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message > news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > > idea to go on the attack. > > > > > > > > > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > > > > > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > > > > > second time. > > > > > > > > > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > > > > > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Paul > > > > > > > > Buffy was just throwing herself into the lion's den, rather than leading > > > everyone else in the same direction. > > > > > > D) There would have been an APOCALYPSE if they didn't help out at the > Bronze > > > that night (Or, at the very best, dozens of people would have been > killed.) > > > There would not have been an apocalypse if they decided not to attack > the > > > vineyard on that particular night. > > > > There would have been an Apocalypse if BUFFY didn't go to the Bronze > > that night. Willow and Xander didn't need to go, in fact it would've > > been better if they hadn't, that's just giving the vamps more > > potential victims, and from later Watcher's I get the feeling Giles > > was supposed to be at home waiting for her report. > > If it weren't for Xander, Willow, and Giles clearing out the Bronze, Buffy > would have had to worry about more civilian casualties on top of having to > fight Luke, which would make it harder to fight Luke, and thus harder to > prevent the apocalypse. And even ignoring that, there's still the fact that > dozens of people would have been killed had they not come. > > Furthermore, they weren't expected to go on a full-on attack, and they > didn't. > > Buffy: "You get the exit cleared and the people out. That's all! Don't go > Wild Bunch on me." > > Arnold Kim The point is they went inside a building full of vampires, to take away the vampires food supply with a girl they'd met at most two days before. This is seven years later. It's a trust thing. JLB

2003-05-05 15:21:22-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done? [JLB SPOILS FINALE] - (barnett@shentel.net)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191f7a76718c174a98a109@netnews.attbi.com>... > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > article <c7b2ff96.0305041723.7751ef63@posting.google.com>... > [elided] > > > > I hate to spoiler you if you haven't been but Buffy's going to > [elided text posted by someone WHO JUST DOES NOT GET IT] > > JLB > > > > Sigh. So tell me, what did you prove by posting this without spoiler > warnings? Hey, both Buffy and Angel have had shows where the bad guy dies before the season finale, so maybe the finale isn't spoiled. JLB

2003-05-05 15:21:22-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done? [JLB SPOILS FINALE] - (barnett@shentel.net)


Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191f7a76718c174a98a109@netnews.attbi.com>... > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > article <c7b2ff96.0305041723.7751ef63@posting.google.com>... > [elided] > > > > I hate to spoiler you if you haven't been but Buffy's going to > [elided text posted by someone WHO JUST DOES NOT GET IT] > > JLB > > > > Sigh. So tell me, what did you prove by posting this without spoiler > warnings? Hey, both Buffy and Angel have had shows where the bad guy dies before the season finale, so maybe the finale isn't spoiled. JLB

2003-05-05 18:05:24-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done? [JLB SPOILS FINALE] - (barnett@shentel.net)


Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3EB6E501.9060501@rogers.com>... > JLB wrote: > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191f7a76718c174a98a109@netnews.attbi.com>... > > >>> > >> > >>Sigh. So tell me, what did you prove by posting this without spoiler > >>warnings? > > > > > > Hey, both Buffy and Angel have had shows where SNIP, so maybe the finale isn't spoiled. > > > > JLB > > That's an ungracious response after what you did, which was to > deliberately share spoiler details, forcing them onto people. You were > out of line. > > > Jane Oh, be quiet. JLB

2003-05-05 18:05:24-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done? [JLB SPOILS FINALE] - (barnett@shentel.net)


Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3EB6E501.9060501@rogers.com>... > JLB wrote: > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191f7a76718c174a98a109@netnews.attbi.com>... > > >>> > >> > >>Sigh. So tell me, what did you prove by posting this without spoiler > >>warnings? > > > > > > Hey, both Buffy and Angel have had shows where SNIP, so maybe the finale isn't spoiled. > > > > JLB > > That's an ungracious response after what you did, which was to > deliberately share spoiler details, forcing them onto people. You were > out of line. > > > Jane Oh, be quiet. JLB

2003-05-05 21:34:47-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two e... - (ABRAMS1117@webtv.net)


I'd set fire to the vineyard and run like hell.

2003-05-05 21:34:47-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two e... - (ABRAMS1117@webtv.net)


I'd set fire to the vineyard and run like hell.

2003-05-05 22:26:06+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done? [JLB SPOILS FINALE] - (Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com>)


JLB wrote: > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191f7a76718c174a98a109@netnews.attbi.com>... >>> >> >>Sigh. So tell me, what did you prove by posting this without spoiler >>warnings? > > > Hey, both Buffy and Angel have had shows where SNIP, so maybe the finale isn't spoiled. > > JLB That's an ungracious response after what you did, which was to deliberately share spoiler details, forcing them onto people. You were out of line. Jane -- Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=231516

2003-05-05 22:26:06+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done? [JLB SPOILS FINALE] - (Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com>)


JLB wrote: > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191f7a76718c174a98a109@netnews.attbi.com>... >>> >> >>Sigh. So tell me, what did you prove by posting this without spoiler >>warnings? > > > Hey, both Buffy and Angel have had shows where SNIP, so maybe the finale isn't spoiled. > > JLB That's an ungracious response after what you did, which was to deliberately share spoiler details, forcing them onto people. You were out of line. Jane -- Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=231516

2003-05-06 12:50:09-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305051355.29ab6faa@posting.google.com... > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b94vkd$4rd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > news:c7b2ff96.0305041721.205cc0f0@posting.google.com... > > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > > news:<b944jd$631$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305031718.7c7e3bc8@posting.google.com... > > > > > paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message > > news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message > > news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > > > idea to go on the attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > > > > > > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > > > > > > second time. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > > > > > > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Paul > > > > > > > > > > > Buffy was just throwing herself into the lion's den, rather than leading > > > > everyone else in the same direction. > > > > > > > > D) There would have been an APOCALYPSE if they didn't help out at the > > Bronze > > > > that night (Or, at the very best, dozens of people would have been > > killed.) > > > > There would not have been an apocalypse if they decided not to attack > > the > > > > vineyard on that particular night. > > > > > > There would have been an Apocalypse if BUFFY didn't go to the Bronze > > > that night. Willow and Xander didn't need to go, in fact it would've > > > been better if they hadn't, that's just giving the vamps more > > > potential victims, and from later Watcher's I get the feeling Giles > > > was supposed to be at home waiting for her report. > > > > If it weren't for Xander, Willow, and Giles clearing out the Bronze, Buffy > > would have had to worry about more civilian casualties on top of having to > > fight Luke, which would make it harder to fight Luke, and thus harder to > > prevent the apocalypse. And even ignoring that, there's still the fact that > > dozens of people would have been killed had they not come. > > > > Furthermore, they weren't expected to go on a full-on attack, and they > > didn't. > > > > Buffy: "You get the exit cleared and the people out. That's all! Don't go > > Wild Bunch on me." > > > > Arnold Kim > > The point is they went inside a building full of vampires, to take > away the vampires food supply with a girl they'd met at most two days > before. This is seven years later. It's a trust thing. No, the point is that if they weren't there to help, the world might have ended. And the fact that people were guaranteed to die if they weren't there. And when they were there, Buffy tried to make things as safe as possible for them. And Xander had a bit of a revenge thing for his friend Jesse. The stakes were a lot higher, and there was a lot less risk. Arnold Kim

2003-05-06 12:50:09-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305051355.29ab6faa@posting.google.com... > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b94vkd$4rd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > news:c7b2ff96.0305041721.205cc0f0@posting.google.com... > > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > > news:<b944jd$631$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305031718.7c7e3bc8@posting.google.com... > > > > > paulfxfoley@aol.com (Paul Foley) wrote in message > > news:<9563162e.0305031419.2100820b@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > barnett@shentel.net (JLB) wrote in message > > news:<c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > > > idea to go on the attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > The first time, they agreed to go. They got their butts kicked. So > > > > > > it really isn't surprising that they refused to follow Buffy there a > > > > > > second time. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's possible to agree or to disagree with the Scoobies' mutiny > > > > > > against Buffy. But it's hard not to see their motivation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Paul > > > > > > > > > > > Buffy was just throwing herself into the lion's den, rather than leading > > > > everyone else in the same direction. > > > > > > > > D) There would have been an APOCALYPSE if they didn't help out at the > > Bronze > > > > that night (Or, at the very best, dozens of people would have been > > killed.) > > > > There would not have been an apocalypse if they decided not to attack > > the > > > > vineyard on that particular night. > > > > > > There would have been an Apocalypse if BUFFY didn't go to the Bronze > > > that night. Willow and Xander didn't need to go, in fact it would've > > > been better if they hadn't, that's just giving the vamps more > > > potential victims, and from later Watcher's I get the feeling Giles > > > was supposed to be at home waiting for her report. > > > > If it weren't for Xander, Willow, and Giles clearing out the Bronze, Buffy > > would have had to worry about more civilian casualties on top of having to > > fight Luke, which would make it harder to fight Luke, and thus harder to > > prevent the apocalypse. And even ignoring that, there's still the fact that > > dozens of people would have been killed had they not come. > > > > Furthermore, they weren't expected to go on a full-on attack, and they > > didn't. > > > > Buffy: "You get the exit cleared and the people out. That's all! Don't go > > Wild Bunch on me." > > > > Arnold Kim > > The point is they went inside a building full of vampires, to take > away the vampires food supply with a girl they'd met at most two days > before. This is seven years later. It's a trust thing. No, the point is that if they weren't there to help, the world might have ended. And the fact that people were guaranteed to die if they weren't there. And when they were there, Buffy tried to make things as safe as possible for them. And Xander had a bit of a revenge thing for his friend Jesse. The stakes were a lot higher, and there was a lot less risk. Arnold Kim

2003-05-06 16:15:12+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done? [JLB SPOILS FINALE] - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in article <c7b2ff96.0305051421.4e39aa28@posting.google.com>... > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191f7a76718c174a98a109@netnews.attbi.com>... > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > article <c7b2ff96.0305041723.7751ef63@posting.google.com>... > > [elided] > > > > > > I hate to spoiler you if you haven't been but Buffy's going to > > [elided text posted by someone WHO JUST DOES NOT GET IT] > > > JLB > > > > > > > Sigh. So tell me, what did you prove by posting this without spoiler > > warnings? > > Hey, [again with the spoilers] > the season finale, so maybe the finale isn't spoiled. > > JLB > So if the spoilers you just had to share are false, then you lied. But if it is true, then you have no self-control. Kudos. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-06 16:15:12+00:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done? [JLB SPOILS FINALE] - (Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid>)


Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in article <c7b2ff96.0305051421.4e39aa28@posting.google.com>... > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.191f7a76718c174a98a109@netnews.attbi.com>... > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > article <c7b2ff96.0305041723.7751ef63@posting.google.com>... > > [elided] > > > > > > I hate to spoiler you if you haven't been but Buffy's going to > > [elided text posted by someone WHO JUST DOES NOT GET IT] > > > JLB > > > > > > > Sigh. So tell me, what did you prove by posting this without spoiler > > warnings? > > Hey, [again with the spoilers] > the season finale, so maybe the finale isn't spoiled. > > JLB > So if the spoilers you just had to share are false, then you lied. But if it is true, then you have no self-control. Kudos. -- Be seeing you, Growltiger

2003-05-06 23:59:10-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305051354.4e4ff097@posting.google.com... > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b962ih$sac$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > news:c7b2ff96.0305041718.1b8c7243@posting.google.com... > > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > > news:<b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > > > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that > > house > > > > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and > > this > > > > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers > > have > > > > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they > > know > > > > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a > > gun? > > > > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the > > vineyard > > > > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. > > It > > > > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else > > resisted > > > > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen > > out of > > > > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > > > > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > > > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > > > > > > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with > > guys > > > > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they > > didn't, > > > > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack > > on an > > > > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > > > > > > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die > > now. > > > > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how > > to > > > > beat my opponent. > > > > > > > > Arnold Kim > > > > > > 90% of the Watcher's Council's materials have been destroyed and the > > > First first appeared in season 3, and simply vanished, not defeated it > > > just left. If thay hadn't follwed up on that during the down times of > > > summer and when activity was slow I'd say they were idiots. I would > > > also say that if Drac showed back up and they didn't know how to kill > > > them. They also have no reason to belive Caleb can't be beaten in the > > > standard ways. It's just they need more power to do it. I stand by > > > my belief that just staying in waiting for something to happen is more > > > dangerous. The FE's minions could pin them in at any time it chooses. > > > > Which, odds are, would not have been on that precise day of the planned > > second attack. It might have been a couple of days later. Even if it's a > > _day_ later, that's one extra day to figure out how to beat your opponent. > > And since they would have gotten slaughtered again (no reason to expect > > otherwise) they had nothing to lose. > > > > Arnold Kim > > Xander deciding to bring Anya's gun wouldn't make a difference? > Willow insisting she go along wouldn't make a differnce. And the flaw Honestly, at this point, no one really knows. Just because you think that Caleb is probably not bulletproof, for instance, doesn't make it smart to try the same failed plan again. > with your plan is they're pinned inside the house to worried about > trying to survive to launch whatever plans they have. I didn't see them particularly shaking in their boots today. Arnold Kim

2003-05-06 23:59:10-04:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (Arnold Kim <kim5@erols.com>)


"JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message news:c7b2ff96.0305051354.4e4ff097@posting.google.com... > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b962ih$sac$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > news:c7b2ff96.0305041718.1b8c7243@posting.google.com... > > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > > news:<b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > > > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote in > > > > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the fight > > > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a good > > > > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that > > house > > > > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher and > > this > > > > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe Bringers > > have > > > > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they > > know > > > > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly less > > > > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going back > > > > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still own a > > gun? > > > > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the > > vineyard > > > > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to end. > > It > > > > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom of > > > > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else > > resisted > > > > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the oxygen > > out of > > > > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > > > > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It seems to > > > > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > > > > > > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with > > guys > > > > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they > > didn't, > > > > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second attack > > on an > > > > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > > > > > > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die > > now. > > > > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out how > > to > > > > beat my opponent. > > > > > > > > Arnold Kim > > > > > > 90% of the Watcher's Council's materials have been destroyed and the > > > First first appeared in season 3, and simply vanished, not defeated it > > > just left. If thay hadn't follwed up on that during the down times of > > > summer and when activity was slow I'd say they were idiots. I would > > > also say that if Drac showed back up and they didn't know how to kill > > > them. They also have no reason to belive Caleb can't be beaten in the > > > standard ways. It's just they need more power to do it. I stand by > > > my belief that just staying in waiting for something to happen is more > > > dangerous. The FE's minions could pin them in at any time it chooses. > > > > Which, odds are, would not have been on that precise day of the planned > > second attack. It might have been a couple of days later. Even if it's a > > _day_ later, that's one extra day to figure out how to beat your opponent. > > And since they would have gotten slaughtered again (no reason to expect > > otherwise) they had nothing to lose. > > > > Arnold Kim > > Xander deciding to bring Anya's gun wouldn't make a difference? > Willow insisting she go along wouldn't make a differnce. And the flaw Honestly, at this point, no one really knows. Just because you think that Caleb is probably not bulletproof, for instance, doesn't make it smart to try the same failed plan again. > with your plan is they're pinned inside the house to worried about > trying to survive to launch whatever plans they have. I didn't see them particularly shaking in their boots today. Arnold Kim

2003-05-07 04:06:48-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b9a09o$4kk$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305051354.4e4ff097@posting.google.com... > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > news:<b962ih$sac$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305041718.1b8c7243@posting.google.com... > > > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > news:<b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > > > > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote > in > > > > > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the > fight > > > > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a > good > > > > > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that > house > > > > > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher > and > this > > > > > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe > Bringers > have > > > > > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they > know > > > > > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly > less > > > > > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going > back > > > > > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still > own a > gun? > > > > > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the > vineyard > > > > > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to > end. > It > > > > > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom > of > > > > > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else > resisted > > > > > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the > oxygen > out of > > > > > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > > > > > > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It > seems to > > > > > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > > > > > > > > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with > guys > > > > > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they > didn't, > > > > > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second > attack > on an > > > > > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die > now. > > > > > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out > how > to > > > > > beat my opponent. > > > > > > > > > > Arnold Kim > > > > > > > > 90% of the Watcher's Council's materials have been destroyed and the > > > > First first appeared in season 3, and simply vanished, not defeated it > > > > just left. If thay hadn't follwed up on that during the down times of > > > > summer and when activity was slow I'd say they were idiots. I would > > > > also say that if Drac showed back up and they didn't know how to kill > > > > them. They also have no reason to belive Caleb can't be beaten in the > > > > standard ways. It's just they need more power to do it. I stand by > > > > my belief that just staying in waiting for something to happen is more > > > > dangerous. The FE's minions could pin them in at any time it chooses. > > > > > > Which, odds are, would not have been on that precise day of the planned > > > second attack. It might have been a couple of days later. Even if it's > a > > > _day_ later, that's one extra day to figure out how to beat your > opponent. > > > And since they would have gotten slaughtered again (no reason to expect > > > otherwise) they had nothing to lose. > > > > > > Arnold Kim > > > > Xander deciding to bring Anya's gun wouldn't make a difference? > > Willow insisting she go along wouldn't make a differnce. And the flaw > > Honestly, at this point, no one really knows. Just because you think that > Caleb is probably not bulletproof, for instance, doesn't make it smart to > try the same failed plan again. > > > with your plan is they're pinned inside the house to worried about > > trying to survive to launch whatever plans they have. > > I didn't see them particularly shaking in their boots today. > > Arnold Kim No they were just assuming Bringers have minds of their own which isn't very smart. JLB

2003-05-07 04:06:48-07:00 - Re: What would everyone else have done?(Spoilers for the last two eps.) - (barnett@shentel.net)


"Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message news:<b9a09o$4kk$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > news:c7b2ff96.0305051354.4e4ff097@posting.google.com... > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > news:<b962ih$sac$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305041718.1b8c7243@posting.google.com... > > > > "Arnold Kim" <kim5@erols.com> wrote in message > news:<b943jv$4aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > > > "JLB" <barnett@shentel.net> wrote in message > > > > > news:c7b2ff96.0305030353.67b19e9@posting.google.com... > > > > > > Growltiger <tyger@never.invalid> wrote in message > news:<MPG.191ccbd9d5ff8a6898a0fc@netnews.attbi.com>... > > > > > > > Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, barnett@shentel.net wrote > in > > > > > > > article <c7b2ff96.0305021805.11f6a5e9@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > > Frankly I'm a little surprised by everyone's reaction to the > fight > > > > > > > > with Caleb and the aftermath. Almost no one thinks it was a > good > > > > > > > > idea to go on the attack. Well I'm sorry but waiting in that > house > > > > > > > > for information that doesn't exist, Caleb is just a preacher > and > this > > > > > > > > is an unprecedented situation, seems like suicide. THe > Bringers > have > > > > > > > > already shown they can break in at any time they want and they > know > > > > > > > > how to make a bomb. I'd say the SUmmers residence is probaly > less > > > > > > > > secure than Watcher's Council headquarters. And as for going > back > > > > > > > > they know who to take this time. I mean doesn't ANya still > own a > gun? > > > > > > > > And could he survive having his skin ripped off cause I think > > > > > > > > Willow's entitled to a little vengeance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JLB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one is saying that the alternative to attacking Caleb at the > vineyard > > > > > > > is cowering in the Summers' house and waiting for the world to > end. > It > > > > > > > just seems that way because all argument focused on the wisdom > of > > > > > > > launching an immediate attack. Buffy said go, everyone else > resisted > > > > > > > her plan and the ensuing confrontation just sucked all the > oxygen > out of > > > > > > > the room until Buffy walked out the door. > > > > > > > > > > > > I fail to see what they think could be gained by waiting. It > seems to > > > > > > me just a question of dying now or dying later. > > > > > > > > > > They could have researched the First- see if it has any history with > guys > > > > > like Caleb. With time, they might have found out more. And if they > didn't, > > > > > they wouldn't be any better off than if they had tried a second > attack > on an > > > > > opponent they had no idea how to fight. > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to die later than to die > now. > > > > > And in choosing to die later, I have a slight chance of figuring out > how > to > > > > > beat my opponent. > > > > > > > > > > Arnold Kim > > > > > > > > 90% of the Watcher's Council's materials have been destroyed and the > > > > First first appeared in season 3, and simply vanished, not defeated it > > > > just left. If thay hadn't follwed up on that during the down times of > > > > summer and when activity was slow I'd say they were idiots. I would > > > > also say that if Drac showed back up and they didn't know how to kill > > > > them. They also have no reason to belive Caleb can't be beaten in the > > > > standard ways. It's just they need more power to do it. I stand by > > > > my belief that just staying in waiting for something to happen is more > > > > dangerous. The FE's minions could pin them in at any time it chooses. > > > > > > Which, odds are, would not have been on that precise day of the planned > > > second attack. It might have been a couple of days later. Even if it's > a > > > _day_ later, that's one extra day to figure out how to beat your > opponent. > > > And since they would have gotten slaughtered again (no reason to expect > > > otherwise) they had nothing to lose. > > > > > > Arnold Kim > > > > Xander deciding to bring Anya's gun wouldn't make a difference? > > Willow insisting she go along wouldn't make a differnce. And the flaw > > Honestly, at this point, no one really knows. Just because you think that > Caleb is probably not bulletproof, for instance, doesn't make it smart to > try the same failed plan again. > > > with your plan is they're pinned inside the house to worried about > > trying to survive to launch whatever plans they have. > > I didn't see them particularly shaking in their boots today. > > Arnold Kim No they were just assuming Bringers have minds of their own which isn't very smart. JLB