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1998-09-20 00:00:00 - Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (Chris Touhey <ctouhey@CUTonramp.net>)


I know, it's an unpopular opinion. I've been wanting to rewatch the ARC since there have been so many unkind references to it as well as Bruce Payne's portrayal of Jugen. I just didn't remember thinking it is was that bad. I thought he did just fine. A mysterious type, one who could read Nikita fairly well and who apparently had definite opinions about Michael. (I didn't say accurate or inaccurate, just opinions.) His actions were pretty consistent, except for letting Nikita off. But since it's an ARC, it certainly left you hanging and wondering. I can't even remember what happens in the next episode at the moment. I thought Michael's emotional display in HL was quite nice but very unusual. It was believable because of the intensity of rediscovering Nikita, who he obviously cares for. In SO, he has had time to settle back down and focus more on survival. Hence the treatment and attitude toward Nikita. It does make you feel sad. I'm just not sure if it is because they are stuck in an untenable situation, or if it is because Michael feels he needs to make the choices he does. His posture is especially stark in contrast to Nikita's attitude, one to which most of us can more easily relate. Michael is making a lot of moves to manipulate things, but it is for survival first, not out of love. Of course, if you're not alive ... And the photography in the action sequences! I sure wish we could have had more of that throughout the second season. Rewatching these first two episodes reminded me that the series really had a "bite" to begin the second season. Action, tension, tugging at the emotions, pretty good stuff. I may wind up not liking the rest of the ARC as I rewatch it, but right now I give it thumbs up. Chris

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (revans7877@aol.com)


I disagree with the Jurgen getting between Nikita and Micheal I think Micheal is getting inbetween Nikita and Micheal A>A>M> " I have enough problems, I don't need yours."

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (jsette@my-dejanews.com)


Colin, being a member of this group for some time, I think you have probably learned not to be reading the posts that are screaming about this subject, if you know what I mean J'sette In article <DBvN1.302$Xc4.5433425@nntptransit.lsan03.pbi.net>, "Colin Whipple" <colincpaNOSPAM@soca.com> wrote: > > jsette@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6u5mvm$v3v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... > >In article <3605BA75.C9C7D05F@CUTonramp.net>, > > Chris Touhey <ctouhey@CUTonramp.net> wrote: > >> I know, it's an unpopular opinion. I've been wanting to rewatch the ARC > >> since there have been so many unkind references to it as well as Bruce > >> Payne's portrayal of Jugen. I just didn't remember thinking it is was > >> that bad. > > > >Chris, I am not speaking to you really, but I reply to this post of > >yours. I am thinking that views are being twisted about this *arc*. > >I was thinking the *arc* was well done. SpecOps is one of my > >most very favorite episodes. I am thinking that it is the extreme Jurgen > >fans who are trying to accuse others of not liking it. The *arc* > >did not end with Jurgen dying because Michael's fans were hating him. > >It is silly and foolish to be saying so. > > Hmmm. It would be, but I don't remember anyone saying that. Could you > point out where someone did? > > Colin > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (dentavdenise@my-dejanews.com)


> > Yes, there were a lot of hate postings about Jurgen/Bruce Payne the first time > around, so much passionate argumentation, that I stayed a lurker. I think the > reason for this was the extreme reluctance of a large number of fans (myself > included) to want anyone to get between Michael and Nikita. Yes, it really WAS > with a sense of relief that Jurgen turned out to be a good guy AND got killed > off--I saw the power he held as being strong competition for Michael and didn't > like it very much. Now that I know how the episodes run, I can enjoy the > nuances, the numerous little things I missed in my anxiety the first time. > > sharp > Sharp...fair opinion. Nicely stated and though I was happy Jurgen was a good guy but sad he died I can see where his presence was unsettling to some. Glad you are enjoying the second go round. Denise -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (va_linda@my-dejanews.com)


I > > Yes, there were a lot of hate postings about Jurgen/Bruce Payne the first time > around, so much passionate argumentation, that I stayed a lurker. I think the > reason for this was the extreme reluctance of a large number of fans (myself > included) to want anyone to get between Michael and Nikita. I disagree at least for me. I had no problem with gray and wouldn't have had a problem with her seeking out someone else later in season when it was very obvious Michael was not going to enter into a relationship with her. But you may have hit on a point that so many fans wanted them to get together and when they finally did the writers quickly inserted a scenario to break them up. But dislike of the arc does not rest soley on Jurgen's shoulders although he played a major part. It was also Nikita's pathetic behavior that was such a turn off and it was the first time since watching the show that I lost sympathy for her character. I have heard from so many others who feel the same perhaps that is why the reactions are so strong, they messed with the lead character of the show and didn't show her in the best of light..IMHO! Yes, it really WAS > with a sense of relief that Jurgen turned out to be a good guy AND got killed > off--I saw the power he held as being strong competition for Michael The "cheap" part about Jurgen was the only power he held was with blackmail. He blackmailed section and probably would have blackmailed Michael in time. He definitely had a axe to grind against him. He had no real passion and just seemed like a "lump" of a person. I didn't see him as a good guy in the end only a martyr. It was obvious Nikita was trying to settle for some kind of consolation prize with him and when they were together in his apt (AZ) she didn not look the least bit comfortable with him, in fact jurgen commented on it. va nd didn't > like it very much. Now that I know how the episodes run, I can enjoy the > nuances, the numerous little things I missed in my anxiety the first time. Yes I agree its easier when you know how its going to end! Also interesting to watch Maddie and Ops now knowing their "relationship" whatever that was. And again, although my dislike of the arc is strong to say the least, it is nothing personal against anyone who enjoyed watching. va > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (va_linda@my-dejanews.com)


aol.com (REvans7877) wrote: > > I disagree with the Jurgen getting between Nikita and Micheal I think Micheal > is getting inbetween Nikita and Micheal I didn't see that during the arc but did later in season. As season progressed Michael definitly made it clear he was not going to give it another try. va > A>A>M> > " I have enough problems, I don't need yours." > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (Colin Whipple <colincpaNOSPAM@soca.com>)


Nope. I don't see why I should not be reading any posts here. Colin jsette@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6u6hpl$t4c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... >Colin, being a member of this group for some time, I think you >have probably learned not to be reading the posts that are screaming >about this subject, if you know what I mean > > J'sette > >

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (paleoanth@aol.com)


>I disagree with the Jurgen getting between Nikita and Micheal I think Micheal >is getting inbetween Nikita and Micheal >A>A>M> >" I have enough problems, I don't need yours." > Actually, I think Nikita is what was getting in between M and N. Paleoanth

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (granvia@aol.com)


> >I agree that Spec Ops was the best of the three arc eps. Jurgen told Nikita >Michael can't love anyone, we all knew it was a lie. But then he shows up at >her apt and tells her that Michael loves her so much he can't live without >her. Sounds like even he didn't know what the heck he was talking about. > >va > > I think Jurgen told Nikita that Michael couldn't love anyone in order to break her. Once she crumpled to the floor crying, he told her, "Now you are finally alive. As far as I am concern, our training is over." Then after he and Michael beat the crap out of each other over her, he told Nikita that Michael loved her, and thought that he possibly couldn't live without her. "If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone else..."

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (Jaida <NOSPAM@sprintmail.com>)


jsette@my-dejanews.com wrote in message > >I am not liking being told that I did not like the *arc*! If I >am liking all the rest of the episodes, then I am said to >hate the *arc* !! When words are being put on my tongue, >I am very offended. I love Nigel Bennett very much but he >was killed off. I am not screaming and screaming that you >hate him and hate his episodes! *laughing* I am not screaming to bring >him back, and I am wishing that fans of anyone killed just >*Shut Up And Leave Them Dead!!!! > huh?? Jaida

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (granvia@aol.com)


Yup, I also liked the arc, and for the most part, liked the Jurgen character. As Nikita said, and Denise echoes, "Jurgen is a good person. He doesn't want to hurt anybody." Having him introduced or intrude between Michael and Nikita didn't cause me pain or discomfort or agita. I knew he was there for a -- brief -- plot purpose. I knew that he would be gone, somehow, if not dying as he did, then just quietly slip into the chasms of Section. Michael and Nikita for the good, bad, or indifferent, are meant for one another. Despite all the trials and tribulations, and separations, they will always find a way to be connected to the other. Lately, and to Nikita's chagrine, mostly spiritually. G > Can you say, Psychic Pilgrim? Again and again? I know Nikita does. >Yes, there were a lot of hate postings about Jurgen/Bruce Payne the first >time >around, so much passionate argumentation, that I stayed a lurker. I think >the >reason for this was the extreme reluctance of a large number of fans (myself >included) to want anyone to get between Michael and Nikita. Yes, it really >WAS >with a sense of relief that Jurgen turned out to be a good guy AND got killed >off--I saw the power he held as being strong competition for Michael and >didn't >like it very much. Now that I know how the episodes run, I can enjoy the >nuances, the numerous little things I missed in my anxiety the first time. > >sharp "If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone else..."

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (granvia@aol.com)


>I disagree with the Jurgen getting between Nikita and Micheal I think Micheal >is getting inbetween Nikita and Micheal >A>A>M> G > Good point, babe. But Michael supposedly has his reasons, which we don't know as yet. Dying to find out, though. "If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone else..."

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (revans7877@aol.com)


ok so in other words Jurgen was acting like your typical thearpist? > >I think Jurgen told Nikita that Michael couldn't love anyone in order to >break >her. Once she crumpled to the floor crying, he told her, "Now you are finally >alive. As far as I am concern, our training is over." > >Then after he and Michael beat the crap out of each other over her, he told >Nikita that Michael loved her, and thought that he possibly couldn't live >without her. > > > >"If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone >else..." A>A>M> " I have enough problems, I don't need yours."

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (revans7877@aol.com)


>> >>I am not liking being told that I did not like the *arc*! If I >>am liking all the rest of the episodes, then I am said to >>hate the *arc* !! When words are being put on my tongue, >>I am very offended. I love Nigel Bennett very much but he >>was killed off. I am not screaming and screaming that you >>hate him and hate his episodes! *laughing* I am not screaming to bring >>him back, and I am wishing that fans of anyone killed just >>*Shut Up And Leave Them Dead!!!! >> > > >huh?? > >Jaida > > > You about summed it up Jadia but I'll risk a lose translation Jurgen fans he's dead get over it Jurgen hater's he's dead get over it am I even close? A>A>M> " I have enough problems, I don't need yours."

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (revans7877@aol.com)


I stopped dying to find out the man has more secrets than the lost city I think a good dose of truth syrum and a bottle of rum and then maybe we can get his shoe size out of him > >G > Good point, babe. But Michael supposedly has his reasons, which we don't >know as yet. Dying to find out, though. > > > > > >"If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone >else..." > > A>A>M> " I have enough problems, I don't need yours."

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (Kat <kathe001@email.msn.com>)


Hmph. I like him too. 'Course, this is the first time I've seen it... Perfect description of his accent. Wow. Kat....that accent...wow. Wickddoll wrote in message <3606ebee.597441@news.turbont.net>... >I wasn't on the NG last season, so I didn't offer an opinion then, but I always did like the ep, and >Bruce Payne. Despite the bad hair, glasses, and whatthefuckisthat? accent. > >:-D > >Natalie, shrugging > > >On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:31:18 -0400, Chris Touhey <ctouhey@CUTonramp.net> wrote: > >>I know, it's an unpopular opinion. I've been wanting to rewatch the ARC >>since there have been so many unkind references to it as well as Bruce >>Payne's portrayal of Jugen. I just didn't remember thinking it is was >>that bad. >> >>I thought he did just fine. A mysterious type, one who could read >>Nikita fairly well and who apparently had definite opinions about >>Michael. (I didn't say accurate or inaccurate, just opinions.) His >>actions were pretty consistent, except for letting Nikita off. But >>since it's an ARC, it certainly left you hanging and wondering. I can't >>even remember what happens in the next episode at the moment. >> >>I thought Michael's emotional display in HL was quite nice but very >>unusual. It was believable because of the intensity of rediscovering >>Nikita, who he obviously cares for. In SO, he has had time to settle >>back down and focus more on survival. Hence the treatment and attitude >>toward Nikita. It does make you feel sad. I'm just not sure if it is >>because they are stuck in an untenable situation, or if it is because >>Michael feels he needs to make the choices he does. His posture is >>especially stark in contrast to Nikita's attitude, one to which most of >>us can more easily relate. Michael is making a lot of moves to >>manipulate things, but it is for survival first, not out of love. Of >>course, if you're not alive ... >> >>And the photography in the action sequences! I sure wish we could have >>had more of that throughout the second season. Rewatching these first >>two episodes reminded me that the series really had a "bite" to begin >>the second season. Action, tension, tugging at the emotions, pretty >>good stuff. >> >>I may wind up not liking the rest of the ARC as I rewatch it, but right >>now I give it thumbs up. >> >>Chris >> >> >> > > >(remove "nospam" from email address to reply) > >"Wicked little doll, you are not human" >"Wicked little doll, you have no soul" (David Byrne, 1997)

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - ("Colin L. Whipple" <colincpaNOSPAM@soca.com>)


jsette@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6u5mvm$v3v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... > >Chris, I am not speaking to you really, but I reply to this post of >yours. I am thinking that views are being twisted about this *arc*. >I was thinking the *arc* was well done. SpecOps is one of my >most very favorite episodes. I am thinking that it is the extreme Jurgen >fans who are trying to accuse others of not liking it. The *arc* >did not end with Jurgen dying because Michael's fans were hating him. >It is silly and foolish to be saying so. Well, I don't want to get into an agrument about this, but I don't recall, in this NG, any Jurgen fans saying that he died because the Michael fans were hating him. I think that perhaps views are getting twisted and exaggerated both ways. Colin

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (dentav@aol.com)


Thank You.... Denise "Jurgen doesn't want to hurt anybody. He's a decent person...why can't you accept that?' - Nikita http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/brucepaynelist

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (clbcrb@aol.com)


>I know, it's an unpopular opinion. I've been wanting to rewatch the ARC since there have been so many unkind references to it as well as Bruce Payne's portrayal of Jugen. I just didn't remember thinking it is was that bad. **I liked Spec Op more than the other 2 parts of the "arc". At this point the character "Jurgen" had not given me much reason to feel anymosity. His little speech to Nikita about never loving anyone did not ring true however because I think that Michael clearly showed in "Simone" that he loved and was devoted to his wife. But later in the"arc" is when I have a few more problems with the character. BP's portrayal during this ep didn't bother me either. >I thought he did just fine. A mysterious type, one who could read Nikita fairly well and who apparently had definite opinions about Michael. (I didn't say accurate or inaccurate, just opinions.) **He definately has opinions about Michael, and further into the "arc" we find out why his opinions could be at least partially valid or completely fabricated depending upon his motives. > His actions were pretty consistent, except for letting Nikita off. **Don't forget what Michael told Nikita in the tag. > But since it's an ARC, it certainly left you hanging and wondering. I can't even remember what happens in the next episode at the moment. **You'll be able to see next Sunday what comes next, unfortunately they will not be airing the 3rd and final part of the "arc" so how crazy is that going to make everyone? Heeheehee, I have it on tape. Willing to spoil when the time comes but I fear my POV will be very skewed. >I thought Michael's emotional display in HL was quite nice but very unusual. It was believable because of the intensity of rediscovering Nikita, who he obviously cares for. **I still say that this was the first indication of the growing desperation/resignation that Michael has displayed during Season 2 and culminating in End Game. Nikita is his weakness, try as he might to overcome or ignore it. His survival within or without Section is dependent on her well being, even if they can not be together. In SO, he has had time to settle >back down and focus more on survival. Hence the treatment and attitude toward Nikita. It does make you feel sad. I'm just not sure if it is because they are stuck in an untenable situation, or if it is because Michael feels he needs to make the choices he does. His posture is especially stark in contrast to Nikita's attitude, one to which most of us can more easily relate. Michael is making a lot of moves to manipulate things, but it is for survival first, not out of love. Of course, if you're not alive ... > **Sad yes...extremely so when I first viewed it without the added information that the rest of Season 2 provided. Yes, Michael was definately back in survival and control mode in this episode and Nikita was hurt and desperate. As the Season progressed Nikita became stronger and less focused on her desire to be with Michael and more focused on a more tolerable survival within Section. Both of them have continued to look out for one another and even display the depth of their feelings for one another. So with that information I was able to watch Spec Op and realise that they will both just "get over it". >And the photography in the action sequences! I sure wish we could have had more of that throughout the second season. Rewatching these first two episodes reminded me that the series really had a "bite" to begin the second season. Action, tension, tugging at the emotions, pretty good stuff. **Yes...I think it was already mentioned here that this episode was nominated for a Gemini Award for Photography. Awesome. > >I may wind up not liking the rest of the ARC as I rewatch it, but right now I give it thumbs up. **Yea, well like I mentioned, SPec Ops again next Saturday and then Third Person the following Sunday and then they will air Psychic Pilgrim. Go figure . >Chris Great evaluation Chris, thanks ! Domino

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (laren450@aol.com)


>Chris wrote: >I know, it's an unpopular opinion. I've been wanting to rewatch the ARC >since there have been so many unkind references to it as well as Bruce >Payne's portrayal of Jugen. Snippage > >I thought he did just fine. Snippage > Rewatching these first >two episodes reminded me that the series really had a "bite" to begin >the second season. Action, tension, tugging at the emotions, pretty >good stuff. > >I may wind up not liking the rest of the ARC as I rewatch it, but right >now I give it thumbs up. > >Chris Well said, Chris, ITA. Allow me to take this opportunity to come out of the closet and add my appreciation of "Spec Ops" and the *the arc* (so far---havent seen the rest as yet) Except for Madeleine believing the Freedom League agent---who did a complete turnabout to say there was a prisoner and then dying. I would expect more suspicion from her, that was too convenient. --Laren (Jurgenite and proud of it!) --------------------------------------------------- ----Laren (ROFLMAO) Nikita, "I'm tired of being careful." Michael, "Get over it." >>>"Spec Ops"

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (Seabush <seabush@yahoo.com>)


I always thought it was a good episode. The whole Arc was intense. -- Seabush

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (jsette@my-dejanews.com)


In article <3605BA75.C9C7D05F@CUTonramp.net>, Chris Touhey <ctouhey@CUTonramp.net> wrote: > I know, it's an unpopular opinion. I've been wanting to rewatch the ARC > since there have been so many unkind references to it as well as Bruce > Payne's portrayal of Jugen. I just didn't remember thinking it is was > that bad. Chris, I am not speaking to you really, but I reply to this post of yours. I am thinking that views are being twisted about this *arc*. I was thinking the *arc* was well done. SpecOps is one of my most very favorite episodes. I am thinking that it is the extreme Jurgen fans who are trying to accuse others of not liking it. The *arc* did not end with Jurgen dying because Michael's fans were hating him. It is silly and foolish to be saying so. The fans of Bruce Payne are wanting him to stay with the show. THis is not to be, and because they want him so much they are screaming all the time, all the time at the others who are liking the show without him, as if they are hating Bruce Payne or Jurgen. If we are liking the series, and it does not have Bruce Payne, we are bad, in the eyes of some people. I am not liking being told that I did not like the *arc*! If I am liking all the rest of the episodes, then I am said to hate the *arc* !! When words are being put on my tongue, I am very offended. I love Nigel Bennett very much but he was killed off. I am not screaming and screaming that you hate him and hate his episodes! *laughing* I am not screaming to bring him back, and I am wishing that fans of anyone killed just *Shut Up And Leave Them Dead!!!! But to those, they know who they are, please stopp putting your words on me. I have vowed to fight this, some of you people are getting things mixed up!!! If we are not screaming to bring back Bruce Payne you say we hate him and the *arc*. Will no one else be with me in saying that your cause is tired, very very tired???? Chris Heyn, please! I am beggging. Can you tell these people that Bruce Payne-Jurgen was not killed because he was hated, he was only to be there for these shows. And these shows were liked by lots of people who were not screaming for Jurgen to come back. Even if there are people not liking this *arc*, it is not to say they are hating Jurgen, so you who keep saying it: Shut up. I have seen others here saying shut up and I am saying it, too. Don't be telling others what people besides you think. That is not right. Maybe you are causing people to hate this *arc* because you never never never are stopping talking about that we are hating it!!!! Maybe you will be making *me* hate it soon if you keep telling me that I do. I am waiting to see at the convention how you are saying this to the faces of the other fans. Somebody will be slapping you if you are acting like you are acting here. > I thought he did just fine. A mysterious type, one who could read I thought he 'did just fine' too. I liked it. My feeling when he was exploded was that it was fitting. It was sad. But his part of the show , Payne-Jurgen, ended there. He was sad character, mentally messed up with war memories, the flashback of anger, very scary man, very sad, tired man. J'sette 'and one day, he'll use it against us' (Michael to Nikita) > Nikita fairly well and who apparently had definite opinions about > Michael. (I didn't say accurate or inaccurate, just opinions.) His > actions were pretty consistent, except for letting Nikita off. But > since it's an ARC, it certainly left you hanging and wondering. I can't > even remember what happens in the next episode at the moment. > > I thought Michael's emotional display in HL was quite nice but very > unusual. It was believable because of the intensity of rediscovering > Nikita, who he obviously cares for. In SO, he has had time to settle > back down and focus more on survival. Hence the treatment and attitude > toward Nikita. It does make you feel sad. I'm just not sure if it is > because they are stuck in an untenable situation, or if it is because > Michael feels he needs to make the choices he does. His posture is > especially stark in contrast to Nikita's attitude, one to which most of > us can more easily relate. Michael is making a lot of moves to > manipulate things, but it is for survival first, not out of love. Of > course, if you're not alive ... > > And the photography in the action sequences! I sure wish we could have > had more of that throughout the second season. Rewatching these first > two episodes reminded me that the series really had a "bite" to begin > the second season. Action, tension, tugging at the emotions, pretty > good stuff. > > I may wind up not liking the rest of the ARC as I rewatch it, but right > now I give it thumbs up. > > Chris > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (dentavdenise@my-dejanews.com)


> **I liked Spec Op more than the other 2 parts of the "arc". At this point the > character "Jurgen" had not given me much reason to feel anymosity. His little > speech to Nikita about never loving anyone did not ring true however because I > think that Michael clearly showed in "Simone" that he loved and was devoted to > his wife. But later in the"arc" is when I have a few more problems with the > character. BP's portrayal during this ep didn't bother me either. > Hey Dom! Thanks for the kind words about Bruce. No one said anyone had to love the ARC but disliking without being mean is most appreciated. You go girl... One thing about the above that I wanted to perhaps offer clarification. Take it for what its worth...my opinion and observation after watching this episode a mere 30 or so times. Jurgen was trying to BREAK Nikita when he told her that about Simone. He was playing a role with her. He was tough guy doing an interrogation while trying to break her will. Hence, there was no inconsistency in his character or verbal tone or expressions because he was doing his job of being an effective interrogator out for intel. Perhaps his using of different ploys and strategies was mistaken for bad acting. I think he was brilliant. = ) JMH and unbiased opinion...hehe!!! Denise So full of Jurgenlove see can't see straight this morning.... -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (Colin Whipple <colincpaNOSPAM@soca.com>)


jsette@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6u5mvm$v3v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... >In article <3605BA75.C9C7D05F@CUTonramp.net>, > Chris Touhey <ctouhey@CUTonramp.net> wrote: >> I know, it's an unpopular opinion. I've been wanting to rewatch the ARC >> since there have been so many unkind references to it as well as Bruce >> Payne's portrayal of Jugen. I just didn't remember thinking it is was >> that bad. > >Chris, I am not speaking to you really, but I reply to this post of >yours. I am thinking that views are being twisted about this *arc*. >I was thinking the *arc* was well done. SpecOps is one of my >most very favorite episodes. I am thinking that it is the extreme Jurgen >fans who are trying to accuse others of not liking it. The *arc* >did not end with Jurgen dying because Michael's fans were hating him. >It is silly and foolish to be saying so. Hmmm. It would be, but I don't remember anyone saying that. Could you point out where someone did? Colin

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (va_linda@my-dejanews.com)


I just didn't remember thinking it is was that bad. > > **I liked Spec Op more than the other 2 parts of the "arc". At this point the > character "Jurgen" had not given me much reason to feel anymosity. His little > speech to Nikita about never loving anyone did not ring true however because I > think that Michael clearly showed in "Simone" that he loved and was devoted to > his wife. But later in the"arc" is when I have a few more problems with the > character. BP's portrayal during this ep didn't bother me either. I agree that Spec Ops was the best of the three arc eps. Jurgen told Nikita Michael can't love anyone, we all knew it was a lie. But then he shows up at her apt and tells her that Michael loves her so much he can't live without her. Sounds like even he didn't know what the heck he was talking about. va -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (silvrsharp@aol.com)


> < Chris Touhey <ctouhey@CUTonramp.net> wrote: >> I know, it's an unpopular opinion. I've been wanting to rewatch the ARC >> since there have been so many unkind references to it as well as Bruce >> Payne's portrayal of Jugen. I just didn't remember thinking it is was >> that bad.> Yes, there were a lot of hate postings about Jurgen/Bruce Payne the first time around, so much passionate argumentation, that I stayed a lurker. I think the reason for this was the extreme reluctance of a large number of fans (myself included) to want anyone to get between Michael and Nikita. Yes, it really WAS with a sense of relief that Jurgen turned out to be a good guy AND got killed off--I saw the power he held as being strong competition for Michael and didn't like it very much. Now that I know how the episodes run, I can enjoy the nuances, the numerous little things I missed in my anxiety the first time. sharp

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (dentavdenise@my-dejanews.com)


In article <DBvN1.302$Xc4.5433425@nntptransit.lsan03.pbi.net>, "Colin Whipple" <colincpaNOSPAM@soca.com> wrote: > > jsette@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6u5mvm$v3v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... > >In article <3605BA75.C9C7D05F@CUTonramp.net>, > > Chris Touhey <ctouhey@CUTonramp.net> wrote: > >> I know, it's an unpopular opinion. I've been wanting to rewatch the ARC > >> since there have been so many unkind references to it as well as Bruce > >> Payne's portrayal of Jugen. I just didn't remember thinking it is was > >> that bad. > > > >Chris, I am not speaking to you really, but I reply to this post of > >yours. I am thinking that views are being twisted about this *arc*. > >I was thinking the *arc* was well done. SpecOps is one of my > >most very favorite episodes. I am thinking that it is the extreme Jurgen > >fans who are trying to accuse others of not liking it. The *arc* > >did not end with Jurgen dying because Michael's fans were hating him. > >It is silly and foolish to be saying so. > > Hmmm. It would be, but I don't remember anyone saying that. Could you > point out where someone did? > > Colin > I would not give this a thought. I didn't. Obviously someone is trying to create an argument in what has thusfar been a cordial discussion. Denise Basking in Jurgen's light.... -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-21 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (revans7877@aol.com)


Mind if I ask a question what was that? A>A>M> " I have enough problems, I don't need yours."

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator! - (catknsn@aol.com)


>Uh oh you mean jurgen was MINIPULATING her?!!! And it was part of his JOB?!! >And it was to HELP her?!!! He was TRAINING her??!!! I don't know about you >guys but this is sounding very ABUSIVE!!!! LOL! Oh my goodness, thank you so >much for that much needed laugh! So funny that when michael does it he is >just awful but when Jurgen did it he was "just trying to break her". ROTFL. Good point Linda. I agree with you - lots of folks have a double standard, one for characters they like and one for characters they don't. I think we are all guilty of that from time to time. Cathy

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (granvia@aol.com)


> >You about summed it up Jadia >but I'll risk a lose translation > >Jurgen fans he's dead get over it >Jurgen hater's he's dead get over it > >am I even close? >A>A>M> Quite. I agree with the sentiments exactly. Although I didn't dislike Jurgen, he was simply a temporary and necessary distraction. Nothin' else. G > Quoting myself: Let Jurgen rest in pieces. "If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone else..."

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (granvia@aol.com)


> >ok so in other words Jurgen was acting like your typical thearpist? > > >> >>I think Jurgen told Nikita that Michael couldn't love anyone in order to >>break >>her. Once she crumpled to the floor crying, he told her, "Now you are >finally >>alive. As far as I am concern, our training is over." >> >>Then after he and Michael beat the crap out of each other over her, he told >>Nikita that Michael loved her, and thought that he possibly couldn't live >>without her. >> > > >A>A>M> Yup. The couch comes in handy. "If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone else..."

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (granvia@aol.com)


> >I stopped dying to find out >the man has more secrets than the lost city > >I think a good dose of truth syrum and a bottle of rum and then maybe we can >get his shoe size out of him > > > Well, at least it's a good way to start a party. <G> >> >>G > Good point, babe. But Michael supposedly has his reasons, which we >don't >>know as yet. Dying to find out, though. >> >> "If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone else..."

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (Wickddollnospam@hotmail.com)


I wasn't on the NG last season, so I didn't offer an opinion then, but I always did like the ep, and Bruce Payne. Despite the bad hair, glasses, and whatthefuckisthat? accent. :-D Natalie, shrugging On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:31:18 -0400, Chris Touhey <ctouhey@CUTonramp.net> wrote: >I know, it's an unpopular opinion. I've been wanting to rewatch the ARC >since there have been so many unkind references to it as well as Bruce >Payne's portrayal of Jugen. I just didn't remember thinking it is was >that bad. > >I thought he did just fine. A mysterious type, one who could read >Nikita fairly well and who apparently had definite opinions about >Michael. (I didn't say accurate or inaccurate, just opinions.) His >actions were pretty consistent, except for letting Nikita off. But >since it's an ARC, it certainly left you hanging and wondering. I can't >even remember what happens in the next episode at the moment. > >I thought Michael's emotional display in HL was quite nice but very >unusual. It was believable because of the intensity of rediscovering >Nikita, who he obviously cares for. In SO, he has had time to settle >back down and focus more on survival. Hence the treatment and attitude >toward Nikita. It does make you feel sad. I'm just not sure if it is >because they are stuck in an untenable situation, or if it is because >Michael feels he needs to make the choices he does. His posture is >especially stark in contrast to Nikita's attitude, one to which most of >us can more easily relate. Michael is making a lot of moves to >manipulate things, but it is for survival first, not out of love. Of >course, if you're not alive ... > >And the photography in the action sequences! I sure wish we could have >had more of that throughout the second season. Rewatching these first >two episodes reminded me that the series really had a "bite" to begin >the second season. Action, tension, tugging at the emotions, pretty >good stuff. > >I may wind up not liking the rest of the ARC as I rewatch it, but right >now I give it thumbs up. > >Chris > > > (remove "nospam" from email address to reply) "Wicked little doll, you are not human" "Wicked little doll, you have no soul" (David Byrne, 1997)

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (dentav@aol.com)


>I disagree with the Jurgen getting between Nikita and Micheal I think Micheal >is getting inbetween Nikita and Micheal >A>A>M> Lady, you are on a roll today... = ) In awe, Denise

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (dentav@aol.com)


Thank you all...each of you for being so much kinder and gentler in your critiques of the Jurgen character this go round. I agree with whoever posted before that last time many people were shamed out of posting or embarrassed to say that liked the character. But luckily most of us have moved past the need to insult the ARC and the character and can just discuss the damn show. Just as it should be... Denise Loving the diversity in opinion...

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Jurgen the manipulator! - (va_linda@my-dejanews.com)


I > > > I think Jurgen told Nikita that Michael couldn't love anyone in order to break > her. Once she crumpled to the floor crying, he told her, "Now you are finally > alive. As far as I am concern, our training is over." > Uh oh you mean jurgen was MINIPULATING her?!!! And it was part of his JOB?!! And it was to HELP her?!!! He was TRAINING her??!!! I don't know about you guys but this is sounding very ABUSIVE!!!! LOL! Oh my goodness, thank you so much for that much needed laugh! So funny that when michael does it he is just awful but when Jurgen did it he was "just trying to break her". But maybe it does show that we are each pretty partial to the characters we enjoy most and we see the good in what they do rather then the bad. Could it be that Jurgen trained Michael in the art of manipulating beautiful women??!! And being that Michael is so much better looking the whole thing between them was Jurgens jealousy over Michael becoming better at it than him?! Do please all take this in the funny manor it is intended! It has been a long day and this was such a good light hearted way to end it. va -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator! - (granvia@aol.com)


> >I > >> >> I think Jurgen told Nikita that Michael couldn't love anyone in order to >break >> her. Once she crumpled to the floor crying, he told her, "Now you are >finally >> alive. As far as I am concern, our training is over." >> > >Uh oh you mean jurgen was MINIPULATING her?!!! And it was part of his JOB?!! >And it was to HELP her?!!! He was TRAINING her??!!! I don't know about you >guys but this is sounding very ABUSIVE!!!! LOL! Oh my goodness, thank you so >much for that much needed laugh! < - - - - - - Lol, Linda, I'm glad my words made you merry, but it was the second paragraph that was intended to be funny. I know you were being fascitious but, yes, in my opinion, Jurgen was both helping and manipulating Nikita. Having been used and abused by Section himself, he felt a kingship to her in addition to an attraction. >So funny that when michael does it he is >just awful but when Jurgen did it he was "just trying to break her". < - - - - - Ah, yes, I've jousted with those who feel that way. I am a devout Michaelite, and understander of his not always understood protective, manipulative actions toward Nikita. Many a times, I feel sorry for the Boo-Boo. Besides, there is a good and bad way to break a woman. May I suggest you look for a post titled "How to Break a Woman" that I wrote about six weeks to two months ago? I can almost guarantee that you will like the piece. It is one of my most creative and enlightening works, if I say so myself -- which I just did. >But maybe it does show that we are each pretty partial to the characters we enjoy >most and we see the good in what they do rather then the bad. Could it be >that Jurgen trained Michael in the art of manipulating beautiful women??!! >And being that Michael is so much better looking the whole thing between them >was Jurgens jealousy over Michael becoming better at it than him?! > Denise's (Dentav) answer to your post, explains my feelings much better. >Do please all take this in the funny manor it is intended! It has been a long >day and this was such a good light hearted way to end it. > >va > > G> I did take your post in a lighthearted manner, but being a writer, I couldn't very well say just that. "If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone else..."

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (revans7877@aol.com)


What can I say I somebody has to stick up for the under dog > >>I disagree with the Jurgen getting between Nikita and Micheal I think >Micheal >>is getting inbetween Nikita and Micheal >>A>A>M> > >Lady, you are on a roll today... = ) > >In awe, > >Denise A>A>M> " I went to the hospita and then they had to commit me you told them all I was crazy now they've cut off my legs now I'm an amputee damn you..... "

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator! - (revans7877@aol.com)


oh great just what the show needs 2 micheal's if you don't like brunette go for the blond >> >> >> I think Jurgen told Nikita that Michael couldn't love anyone in order to >break >> her. Once she crumpled to the floor crying, he told her, "Now you are >finally >> alive. As far as I am concern, our training is over." >> > >Uh oh you mean jurgen was MINIPULATING her?!!! And it was part of his JOB?!! >And it was to HELP her?!!! He was TRAINING her??!!! I don't know about you >guys but this is sounding very ABUSIVE!!!! LOL! Oh my goodness, thank you so >much for that much needed laugh! So funny that when michael does it he is >just awful but when Jurgen did it he was "just trying to break her". But >maybe it does show that we are each pretty partial to the characters we enjoy >most and we see the good in what they do rather then the bad. Could it be >that Jurgen trained Michael in the art of manipulating beautiful women??!! >And being that Michael is so much better looking the whole thing between them >was Jurgens jealousy over Michael becoming better at it than him?! > >Do please all take this in the funny manor it is intended! It has been a long >day and this was such a good light hearted way to end it. > > A>A>M> " I went to the hospita and then they had to commit me you told them all I was crazy now they've cut off my legs now I'm an amputee damn you..... "

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (jsette@my-dejanews.com)


dentav@aol.com (Dentav) wrote: > Thank you all...each of you for being so much kinder and gentler in your > critiques of the Jurgen character this go round. I agree with whoever posted I do not know why you need to *thank*, but I remember that people were liking the *arc*, last time, as well. You were so being so loud and insisting all the time that we did *not* like it, that we did not get to be heard. And, to the one who said something about Jurgen haters, to my post? This is what I am getting upset about. I am not a Jurgen hater and I *DID* like the *arc*!!!! Why do you keep putting words on others! And I saw plenty who loved these three shows the very first time of airing, but you, Madame Denise, keep saying to us that if we do not like Jurgen to be coming back, we must be hating him, the *arc*, and all. I have been on your lists where you were screaming that "nobody likes Jurgen and you hate the *arc*" So, for you who say to what I posted yesterday, "huh" - this is what I mean, this lady here, if you are not aware, is *saying* so many people hated the *arc* and *hated* her Jurgen. Simply it is not true. I am saying it again, as said before: I loved the *arc*, and loved Jurgen. I am only tired of being told I hate him and tired that this lady won't let the show be what it is, and must keep screaming harping about Jurgen coming back, have you all really been missing these posts? This lady types so many place where I am lurking that I am sorry, maybe she was not saying her "I love Jurgen he is coming back" in the group here. *laughing* But elsewhere, we *have* been said (by you)to hate things we are not, and it is offensive to me. There is more to it than 1 Love Jurgen, bring back 2 Hate Jurgen So many of us loved or liked him, but we are not the ones being bullies to bring him back!!!! > before that last time many people were shamed out of posting or embarrassed to > say that liked the character. But luckily most of us have moved past the need > to insult the ARC and the character and can just discuss the damn show. Just > as it should be... not so many were "insulting the ARC", stop saying that. It is *not* true, it is a thing you are making up because people are not in love with Jurgen as you and they see that he ended forever. Denise > Loving the diversity in opinion... this is very funny, Madame Denise. You have bullied on so many lists and so many boards by screaming that the opinions of others are wrong! You are hating of diversity. I will not be allowing you to be saying false things, pretending you are not tough with people who might have satisfaction with the death of Jurgen. How many people are inside your skin, there, Madame? *laughing* J'sette "don't be saying I am a Jurgen hater, I am not" -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (stremy1@aol.com)


>Hmmm. It would be, but I don't remember anyone saying that. Could you >point out where someone did? > > That whole post seemed a little misdirected. I liked Jurgen, recognise I'm in the minority, and accept it while realizing that differing opinions are the entire purpose of an NG. I don't think I've ever screamed at the Jurgen haters, nor has anyone else. If nothing else, the man makes this group positively hum with activity.

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (stremy1@aol.com)


>Thank you all...each of you for being so much kinder and gentler in your >critiques of the Jurgen character this go round. I agree with whoever posted >before that last time many people were shamed out of posting or embarrassed >to >say that liked the character. But I liked him then, like him now, and always said so (before ducking the HOSTILITY HURLED MY WAY BY YOU JURGEN HATERS :) ) I do feel a little bit better that upon second viewing a few more seem to have enjoyed him too. >Thank you all...each of you for being so much kinder and gentler in your >critiques of the Jurgen character this go round. I agree with whoever posted >before that last time many people were shamed out of posting or embarrassed >to >say that liked the character. But >Thank you all...each of you for being so much kinder and gentler in your >critiques of the Jurgen character this go round. I agree with whoever posted >before that last time many people were shamed out of posting or embarrassed >to >say that liked the character. But

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (dentavdenise@my-dejanews.com)


> > Loving the diversity in opinion... > > this is very funny, Madame Denise. You have bullied on so many > lists and so many boards by screaming that the opinions of others > are wrong! You are hating of diversity. I will not be allowing > you to be saying false things, pretending you are not tough with > people who might have satisfaction with the death > of Jurgen. How many people are inside your skin, there, Madame? > *laughing* > > J'sette > > "don't be saying I am a Jurgen hater, I am not" > Glad you are not...why are your arguing that you aren't? I'm glad no one else is understanding this either.... Denise Who is fine if you do or if you don't...I've gotten a life since Jan. 98 and have more important things to fight for...like my children's health and happiness. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator! - (khimera@my-dejanews.com)


In article <6u72f8$fi7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, va_linda@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > Uh oh you mean jurgen was MINIPULATING her?!!! And it was part of his JOB?!! > And it was to HELP her?!!! He was TRAINING her??!!! I don't know about you > guys but this is sounding very ABUSIVE!!!! LOL! Oh my goodness, thank you so > much for that much needed laugh! So funny that when michael does it he is > just awful but when Jurgen did it he was "just trying to break her". I've always been of two minds about the way Jurgen acted.Personally I would have liked it had they went with the more menacing quality.Could have provided some much more interesting moments for M&N.And provided Michael with a challenge I mean lets face it theres not really any competition capable of besting Michael thus far. I think it would have been more intriguing to see these two square off intellectually instead of the physical chest thumping display we get later on. As for Jurgen I liked his character but wasn't oblivious to the manipulative properties of the character nor ready to raise him to Sainthood when he blew apart the way some did and um continue to do either. He was an intriguing character a bit softer than Michael.With the luxury of not having to worry about the same set of parameters dictating his actions that Michael has.And we never did really know what motivated him or what his real intentions with Nikita were. And if he simply *just* wanted Nikita why such an intense interest in Michael's thoughts,actions <g> words. That in itself was intriguing. Over all the character of Jurgen had so much promise *could* have been a wonderful opportunity to explore it to however there was to much indecisivness.To bad to it's not Payne's fault that bad writing and one must assume bad direction ruined an otherwise interesting Premise.Maybe the writers needed a vacation..Ooops scratch that they had just returned from Summer break. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (va_linda@my-dejanews.com)


I> > this is very funny, Madame Denise. You have bullied on so many > > lists and so many boards by screaming that the opinions of others > > are wrong! You are hating of diversity. I will not be allowing > > you to be saying false things, pretending you are not tough with > > people who might have satisfaction with the death > > of Jurgen. How many people are inside your skin, there, Madame? > > *laughing* > > > > J'sette > > > > "don't be saying I am a Jurgen hater, I am not" > > > Glad you are not...why are your arguing that you aren't? > > I'm glad no one else is understanding this either.... > Denise Who is fine if you do or if you don't...I've gotten a life since Jan. > 98 and have more important things to fight for...like my children's health > and happiness. I have to admit I am not understanding it either. Denise I am sure you know that children are the most precious gifts from god and I wish you well with whatever battle you are fighing for them now. They no doubt deserve the very best and often get stuck with less. If your children are in a tough situation I am glad to hear they are lucky enough to have someone fighting for them. You should hear some of the sad situations my husband comes across on the job, children subject to their environment with no one who cares to try and make a difference. I have no idea of your personal situation so forgive me if I am out of line. va > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (dentavdenise@my-dejanews.com)


e Jan. > > 98 and have more important things to fight for...like my children's health > > and happiness. > > I have to admit I am not understanding it either. Denise I am sure you know > that children are the most precious gifts from god and I wish you well with > whatever battle you are fighing for them now. They no doubt deserve the very > best and often get stuck with less. If your children are in a tough situation > I am glad to hear they are lucky enough to have someone fighting for them. > You should hear some of the sad situations my husband comes across on the > job, children subject to their environment with no one who cares to try and > make a difference. I have no idea of your personal situation so forgive me if > I am out of line. > > va > > My apologies for posting this response online but since the original post was online I thought I would post my response there too. Forgive me if you do not think its appropriate. VA...thank you for your kind words, questions and NO you are not out of line and actually your concern is much appreciated. Without going into gory details, the past few weeks have been the scariest and most liberating of my life. I've past a difficult threshold with the love and support of family, friends and FAITH. And though there have been those online who've been less than kind I've managed to find so many more who've been loving open and caring in their support of me (especially those who know the story) both online and off. So thank you for your concern. One may never agree with me, like me, or accept me but all I ask is that you pray for me and I will be fine with that. Thanks... Densie -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-22 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (Paige Foster <morrigan@earthlink.net>)


jsette@my-dejanews.com wrote: <snips> > this is very funny, Madame Denise. You have bullied on so many > lists and so many boards by screaming that the opinions of others > are wrong! You are hating of diversity. I will not be allowing > you to be saying false things, pretending you are not tough with > people who might have satisfaction with the death > of Jurgen. How many people are inside your skin, there, Madame? > *laughing* > > J'sette No offense, J'sette, but is English your first language? I try not to give unasked for advice, but my resistance is low today, so here's some: public personal attacks on someone, no matter how annoying that person might be, will not win you friends or arguments. It only makes the person you're attacking look better, which I suspect is the last thing you want. Paige, who is pretty sure she'll regret having spoken up Online Art Gallery: http://home.earthlink.net/~morrigan/

1998-09-23 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (paleoanth@aol.com)


>Without going into gory details, the past few weeks have been the scariest >and most liberating of my life. I've past a difficult threshold with the >love and support of family, friends and FAITH. > My thoughts are with you and your kids. Paleoanth

1998-09-23 00:00:00 - Re: Liked Spec Ops Even Better The Second Time [Spoilers] - (dentav@aol.com)


>My thoughts are with you and your kids. > >Paleoanth Thanks Paleo...it means alot! = ) Denise

1998-09-23 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator! - (dentav@aol.com)


>ROTFL. Good point Linda. I agree with you - lots of folks have a double >standard, one for characters they like and one for characters they don't. I >think we are all guilty of that from time to time. > >Cathy Really...ladies. I don't think we need to be laughing at someone's opinion nor calling them hypocritical. Please... Manipulation is part of everyday life. Advertising, insurance, the stock market, politics, the media, parenting, friendships, etc. Manipulation in and of itself is not and has not been the problem IMHO. Its the choice, motive, intention behind the manipulation that I have always taken issue with and still do. I think that Jurgen told Nikita the TRUTH when he told her that Michael was dead inside and he made her dead too. I think he may have been telling her the truth when he said he was incapable of love (we SEE this. For whatever reason its a reality at THIS point.) Listen to his tone, his actions, his intentions when he told her this. He was not trying to seduce her, or trying to hurt her. SHE had a knife pointed at him. I think with his obviously primo psychological insight (Yes, Jungian schooled no doubt) he could see in her eyes that she was NOT really going to do this if she didn't have to. He gave her a reason not to. In the script it says that Nikita is angered by Jurgen's remarks that Nikita would do anything Michael told her to because she was his slave. That she would have sex with him if he asked her to. Why was she angry? The script says because Nikita believed it to be TRUE. It hit too close to home and therefore upon hearing the words initially became angered but realized it was not HE she should be mad at but herself. So I don't think that there is a double standard here at all. Manipulation is not the problem. Its the intent behind the manipulation. I dare say that most people with a 10 inch knife headed in their direction would not do the same to try to escape the situation. And in doing so he saved himself and her. For she would have been cancelled had she proceeded to kill him. Websters defines manipulator and manipulate as the following... Syn. handler, agent, operator, conductor, controller, schemer, conspirator. 1 to work, operate, or treat with or as with the hand or hands; handle or use, esp. with skill 2 to manage or control artfully or by shrewd use of influence, often in an unfair or fraudulent way !to manipulate an election by bribing the voters" 3 a) to falsify (figures, accounts, etc.) for one���s own purposes or profit; rig; b) to cause (prices of stock, etc.) to fall or rise by wash sales, matched orders, etc. ���SYN So while there is a negative connation to the world, it is not always a bad thing. Rather, it depends on who is benefiting from the outcome. The manipulated or the manipulator? That is the criteria I use. JMHO Denise

1998-09-23 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator - Damn! - (granvia@aol.com)


and damn again. I lost the post I wanted to respond to. Can't find it anywhere. This is the second time that has happened to me. I can find other posts of that title, but not the particular post I need. Grrr! Am I the only one that happens to? . . . Okay, I'm going to have to wing it and respond to the general feeling of the post, so excuse any misquote. This refers to Denise's response to my post to va-linda after I wrote that I agreed with Denise's viewpoint of Nikita and Jurgen -- of him being protective and helpful to Nikita in Specs Op. Denise, I must disappoint you because I do not totally agree with your second post, and your implication that I supported all your viewpoints, particularly that of Michael. Yes, I agree that Jurgen could have been Nikita's soul mate (in another parallel universe), and that he helped her, and that he might have been better for Nikita on the whole. However, there is where we depart. Jurgen might have been the better man for Nikita -- provided he hadn't been involved in blackmailing Section. That alone smudged their supposed idyllically matched relationship, and put her in jeopardy if Jurgen had included her in his blackmailing scheme, which would have been a logical thing for him to have done. Op: "What do you want Jurgen?" J: "As you may know, Nikita and I are a couple." Op: "Yeah, so?" J: "So I want you to also leave her alone." Op: "What?!" J: "I said, I want you to treat Nikita with the same respect you have to treat me -- or I'll leak some of the intel I have on you." How long would Nikita have lasted? Again, Section would have used her against Jurgen by taking her hostage and blackmailing him with her life. Madeline: "Give us the intel you stole or she dies . . . slowly, and in front of you." (Actually, that would have made for an interesting episode.) What would Jurgen have done, given up his freedom of choice, autonomy, and material perks for Nikita? A woman he previously told, "Michael loves you. . . I don't know if he can live without you . . . I know I can." In essence, give up his life for which he had worked so hard and foolhardily to achieve? Michael would have. But would have Jurgen, who preferred death over being under Section's thumb? He did, after all, say to Nikita after discovering that Section had ransacked his computer: "Us? There is no us! Not anymore!" when Nikita told him not to worry that they still had each other. Yes, he was upset at the time, but he spoke the truth. Without his protective, bravado-giving, blackmailing cocoon, Jurgen was a shell of a man. Unlike Michael, who appears to be a shell of a man, but in my reality, is a man full of burgeoning emotions, conviction, and passion, a knight, to use Dupuis' own interpretation of Michael. In addition, I do not agree that Michael is just a pretty face, devoid of soul and redemption -- and, in particular, not worthy of Nikita. My staunch opinion is that Michael, troubled or not, IS Nikita's true soul mate. Michael does love her, protects her, and in time (*I'm* patient), will give her the emotional support she craves -- in their Section dominated world. Jurgen was just another option -- *that was thrusted on her.* So, even if Nikita had coupled with Jurgen, it wouldn't have lasted indefinitely. The magnet that is Michael would have eventually pulled her back. Not so much because she would be selfish and childish, but because Michael is the one she truly loves. Jurgen knew that. Just as he knew that Michael loved Nikita. That's why, if you'll pardon the phrase, he pussyfooted around her. Regardless how good Jurgen was to and for Nikita during the arc -- we must not forget -- she *never* loved Jurgen. She liked him. She respected him. She thought him as a friend. But she didn't love him. Perhaps she would have learned to love him, but not wholly, as a part of her would always belong to Michael. G > As I once wrote, he had branded her ;-) (Ask Amanda how) "If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone else..."

1998-09-23 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator - Damn! - (revans7877@aol.com)


>nd >blackmailing him with her life. > >Madeline: "Give us the intel you stole or she dies . . . slowly, and in front >of you." > >(Actually, that would have made for an interesting episode.) I don't think Nikita would agree with the interesting part : ) A>A>M> " Can you smell what the rock is cookin?.. " (don't ask please don't ask)

1998-09-23 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator - Damn! - (dentav@aol.com)


>This refers to Denise's response to my post to va-linda after I wrote that I >agreed with Denise's viewpoint of Nikita and Jurgen -- of him being >protective >and helpful to Nikita in Specs Op. > >Denise, I must disappoint you because I do not totally agree with your second >post, and your implication that I supported all your viewpoints, particularly >that of Michael. > >Yes, I agree that Jurgen could have been Nikita's soul mate (in another >parallel universe), and that he helped her, and that he might have been >better >for Nikita on the whole. However, there is where we depart. Hi Granvia! No disappoinment here. Who said everyone has to agree with everything one says in order to validate EITHER opinion, not I. And, I did not mean to imply that...sorry if you felt I did. When I think of soul mate I think of someone who believes as, feels as, and is in tune with someone on an innate level. Its not the same as having a sexual attraction, desire, or interest in another being. Its not the same as liking the same books, art, pizza, etc. Its not even having the same principles, opinions or ethics. Its having the INTRINSIC desires for self and humanity. IMHO. Often times this is not even on a conscious level. Joel S. or Michael L. FIRST used the term to describe Jurgen as Nikita's 'soul mate', not I. However, I plead opportunist for picking up and running with that description because that is what I saw, felt and believed what I saw. And just because someone is a soulmate with another doesn't necessarily mean they will be sexual, in love, partners, friends, etc. It just means that they share something deeper, something more meaningful, something unseen between the two. I dpn't see M/N there at all. I can see where the differences in their soul's and soul purposes, as they are demonstrated to this point, as being the REASON they end up not being together. By the same token, if Michael is indeed detached from himself and his soul purpose then perhaps upon realizing this and making the necessary changes there is hope. And, if Nikita is still around by then they may have a chance. But I truly believe her principles in having a shared sacred soul will prevail and she will not accept Michael in his current state. JMHO. Denise

1998-09-23 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator! - (EZBatoutahell <ELZBURNS@Prodigy.Net>)


khimera@my-dejanews.com writes: > In article <6u72f8$fi7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > Over all the character of Jurgen had so much promise *could* have been a > wonderful opportunity to explore it to however there was to much > indecisivness.To bad to it's not Payne's fault that bad writing and one must > assume bad direction ruined an otherwise interesting Premise.Maybe the > writers needed a vacation..Ooops scratch that they had just returned from > Summer break. Geez, You hit the nail on the head..... I mean, the show is full enigma, but you still can see the "dark & light".... It was like they started out writing him as really, really bad... then half way through, they decided to make him "good"... What they got was wishy-washy and inconsistant..... If someone is going to seduce Nikita away from Michael, well, make him the polar opposite... not a faded negative.... EZBee, Off to find Visine.....

1998-09-24 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator! - (va_linda@my-dejanews.com)


In article <360A7FD0.B2DD7087@loki.stockton.edu>, "Pamela J. Saunders" <saunderp@loki.stockton.edu> wrote: > Oh, va, > > Looks like you hit the nail on the head! (Doesn't mean I think you're a hammer! tee > hee). It is amazing how we all, humans that we are, are willling to justify or > criticize behavior based on our like/dislike of the person/character. You just > crystallized beautifully the whole Jurgen/Michael dispute from last winter. Wish I'd > had the benefit of your wisdom then, but glad to have it now. Thanks! > > Pam Pam those are very kind and generous words and I appreciate it. va :o) > > va_linda@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > > I > > > > > > > I think Jurgen told Nikita that Michael couldn't love anyone in order to break > > > her. Once she crumpled to the floor crying, he told her, "Now you are finally > > > alive. As far as I am concern, our training is over." > > > > > > > Uh oh you mean jurgen was MINIPULATING her?!!! And it was part of his JOB?!! > > And it was to HELP her?!!! He was TRAINING her??!!! I don't know about you > > guys but this is sounding very ABUSIVE!!!! LOL! Oh my goodness, thank you so > > much for that much needed laugh! So funny that when michael does it he is > > just awful but when Jurgen did it he was "just trying to break her". But > > maybe it does show that we are each pretty partial to the characters we enjoy > > most and we see the good in what they do rather then the bad. Could it be > > that Jurgen trained Michael in the art of manipulating beautiful women??!! > > And being that Michael is so much better looking the whole thing between them > > was Jurgens jealousy over Michael becoming better at it than him?! > > > > Do please all take this in the funny manor it is intended! It has been a long > > day and this was such a good light hearted way to end it. > > > > va > > > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-24 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator! - (va_linda@my-dejanews.com)


> > Really...ladies. I don't think we need to be laughing at someone's opinion nor > calling them hypocritical. Please... Sorry but I do find it very hypocritical that we accept behavior from one character but not the same for another. And I do find it amusing to see jurgen's actions of explained just as I have done Michael's many times. > > Manipulation in and of itself is not and has not been the problem IMHO. Its > the choice, motive, intention behind the manipulation that I have always taken > issue with and still do. > I agree that Michael's manipulation is not a problem because his motives have always been to protect Nikita. I am glad to hear you realize that the fact that he has manipulated her is not a bad thing in itself. We just see the intentions differently... I > I think that Jurgen told Nikita the TRUTH when he told her that Michael was > dead inside and he made her dead too. I think he may have been telling her the > truth when he said he was incapable of love (we SEE this. For whatever reason > its a reality at THIS point.) > So in the same breath of the same conversation he was telling the truth about Michael being dead inside but lying to her about Michael not loving her and not being capable of love. And we all knew it was a lie when he showed up at her apt and told her that Michael loved her so much he couldn't live without her. Seems like he was doing a little more minapulation there... > Listen to his tone, his actions, his intentions when he told her this. He was > not trying to seduce her, or trying to hurt her. SHE had a knife pointed at > him. I think with his obviously primo psychological insight (Yes, Jungian > schooled no doubt) he could see in her eyes that she was NOT really going to do > this if she didn't have to. He gave her a reason not to. I think he was attracted to Nikita because he saw the same animosity in her against section that he has. And has you said he has good psychological insight and knew just what to say that would get to her. He wanted her and played with her emotions to bring her closer to him. Hence why he contridicted himself when he spoke about Michael. While you may see his intentions as better than Michael's, I see many similarities in his methods. And while you see Michael's intentions as bad I see them as blatently good. > > In the script it says that Nikita is angered by Jurgen's remarks that Nikita > would do anything Michael told her to because she was his slave. That she would > have sex with him if he asked her to. Why was she angry? Of course she was angry, another form of very smart manipulation on Jurgen's part. How many times do you see a group of guys sitting around teasing each other about their girlfriends having them "whipped". No guy likes to hear it and while the girlfriend may not have him "whipped" he starts to worry that maybe she does and becomes more defensive. I don't think Nikita much liked to think that Michael has her under his thumb because of her pride. Again Jurgen is really good at manipulation and knew just what to say to get to her. > > > So I don't think that there is a double standard here at all. Manipulation is > not the problem. Its the intent behind the manipulation. I am so glad to hear you are not bothered by manipulation because I have seen Michael do it to save her life and it doesn't bother me either because I know his intentions are in her best interest. > > So while there is a negative connation to the world, it is not always a bad > thing. Rather, it depends on who is benefiting from the outcome. The > manipulated or the manipulator? Me too and I have never seen Michael benefit from manipulating Nikita. He oftens seems very sad that it had to come to that. What I think is so selfless about Michael is that he will do what he was to do to protect her even it it means she will be angry with him. I don't know all his reasons for not entering into a relationship with her but it is so obvious he loves her and I think it tears him apart inside to have to keep a distance. That is the criteria I use. > Me too which is why Michael's actions have never bothered me. JMHO also. va :-) > JMHO > > Denise > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-24 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator - Damn! - (va_linda@my-dejanews.com)


In article <19980923070147.15091.00000661@ng44.aol.com>, dentav@aol.com (Dentav) wrote: > > When I think of soul mate I think of someone who believes as, feels as, and is > in tune with someone on an innate level. Denise I don't think she even knew enough about Jurgen to feel a "connection" with him. She looked so uncomfortable at his house he even commented on it. It seemed to me she was thinking of Michael. > > However, I plead opportunist for picking up and running with that description > because that is what I saw, felt and believed what I saw. That might be what you saw Denise but not what I did. I think it is a matter of opinion, certainly not fact. > > And just because someone is a soulmate with another doesn't necessarily mean > they will be sexual, in love, partners, friends, etc. > > It just means that they share something deeper, something more meaningful, > something unseen between the two. > > I dpn't see M/N there at all. I can see where the differences in their soul's > and soul purposes, as they are demonstrated to this point, as being the REASON > they end up not being together. I think its fascinating to watch their differences and how they interact with each other. I love the contrast of Nikita's light to Michael's darker shaded in gray side. I think their differenes is also part of their attraction to each other. > > And, if Nikita is still around by then they may have a chance. But I truly > believe her principles in having a shared sacred soul will prevail and she will > not accept Michael in his current state. JMHO. That sounds very romantic but I haven't seen her express these principles of having a shared soul. I see a very lonely woman in need of affection. I was glad to see her become more independent. I think once she blew it with Michael during the arc and Jurgen killed himself she was forced to be alone. JMHO va > Denise > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-24 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator - Damn! - (Suzita <SUGEO@worldnet.att.net>)


Excellent post, G. I have tried, but I couldn't have said it better. :-) Suzita Granvia wrote in message <19980923010006.06342.00000444@ng08.aol.com>... > >and damn again. I lost the post I wanted to respond to. Can't find it anywhere. >This is the second time that has happened to me. I can find other posts of that >title, but not the particular post I need. > >Grrr! > >Am I the only one that happens to? > >. . . Okay, I'm going to have to wing it and respond to the general feeling of >the post, so excuse any misquote. > >This refers to Denise's response to my post to va-linda after I wrote that I >agreed with Denise's viewpoint of Nikita and Jurgen -- of him being protective >and helpful to Nikita in Specs Op. > >Denise, I must disappoint you because I do not totally agree with your second >post, and your implication that I supported all your viewpoints, particularly >that of Michael. > >Yes, I agree that Jurgen could have been Nikita's soul mate (in another >parallel universe), and that he helped her, and that he might have been better >for Nikita on the whole. However, there is where we depart. > >Jurgen might have been the better man for Nikita -- provided he hadn't been >involved in blackmailing Section. That alone smudged their supposed >idyllically matched relationship, and put her in jeopardy if Jurgen had >included her in his blackmailing scheme, which would have been a logical thing >for him to have done. > >Op: "What do you want Jurgen?" > >J: "As you may know, Nikita and I are a couple." > >Op: "Yeah, so?" > >J: "So I want you to also leave her alone." > >Op: "What?!" > >J: "I said, I want you to treat Nikita with the same respect you have to treat >me -- or I'll leak some of the intel I have on you." > >How long would Nikita have lasted? > >Again, Section would have used her against Jurgen by taking her hostage and >blackmailing him with her life. > >Madeline: "Give us the intel you stole or she dies . . . slowly, and in front >of you." > >(Actually, that would have made for an interesting episode.) > >What would Jurgen have done, given up his freedom of choice, autonomy, and >material perks for Nikita? A woman he previously told, "Michael loves you. . . >I don't know if he can live without you . . . I know I can." > >In essence, give up his life for which he had worked so hard and foolhardily to >achieve? > >Michael would have. > >But would have Jurgen, who preferred death over being under Section's thumb? > >He did, after all, say to Nikita after discovering that Section had ransacked >his computer: > >"Us? There is no us! Not anymore!" when Nikita told him not to worry that they >still had each other. Yes, he was upset at the time, but he spoke the truth. >Without his protective, bravado-giving, blackmailing cocoon, Jurgen was a shell >of a man. Unlike Michael, who appears to be a shell of a man, but in my >reality, is a man full of burgeoning emotions, conviction, and passion, a >knight, to use Dupuis' own interpretation of Michael. > >In addition, I do not agree that Michael is just a pretty face, devoid of soul >and redemption -- and, in particular, not worthy of Nikita. My staunch opinion >is that Michael, troubled or not, IS Nikita's true soul mate. Michael does love >her, protects her, and in time (*I'm* patient), will give her the emotional >support she craves -- in their Section dominated world. > >Jurgen was just another option -- *that was thrusted on her.* > >So, even if Nikita had coupled with Jurgen, it wouldn't have lasted >indefinitely. The magnet that is Michael would have eventually pulled her >back. Not so much because she would be selfish and childish, but because >Michael is the one she truly loves. Jurgen knew that. Just as he knew that >Michael loved Nikita. That's why, if you'll pardon the phrase, he pussyfooted >around her. > >Regardless how good Jurgen was to and for Nikita during the arc -- we must not >forget -- she *never* loved Jurgen. She liked him. She respected him. She >thought him as a friend. But she didn't love him. Perhaps she would have >learned to love him, but not wholly, as a part of her would always belong to >Michael. > >G > As I once wrote, he had branded her ;-) > >(Ask Amanda how) > >"If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone >else..." >

1998-09-24 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator! - (dentav@aol.com)


Agreeing to disagree with you VA on this because we ain't gettin anywhere...as usual. = ) And you can even have the last word because I'm feeling it so unnecessary for me personally at this juncture. Denise

1998-09-24 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator! - ("Pamela J. Saunders" <saunderp@loki.stockton.edu>)


Oh, va, Looks like you hit the nail on the head! (Doesn't mean I think you're a hammer! tee hee). It is amazing how we all, humans that we are, are willling to justify or criticize behavior based on our like/dislike of the person/character. You just crystallized beautifully the whole Jurgen/Michael dispute from last winter. Wish I'd had the benefit of your wisdom then, but glad to have it now. Thanks! Pam va_linda@my-dejanews.com wrote: > I > > > > > I think Jurgen told Nikita that Michael couldn't love anyone in order to break > > her. Once she crumpled to the floor crying, he told her, "Now you are finally > > alive. As far as I am concern, our training is over." > > > > Uh oh you mean jurgen was MINIPULATING her?!!! And it was part of his JOB?!! > And it was to HELP her?!!! He was TRAINING her??!!! I don't know about you > guys but this is sounding very ABUSIVE!!!! LOL! Oh my goodness, thank you so > much for that much needed laugh! So funny that when michael does it he is > just awful but when Jurgen did it he was "just trying to break her". But > maybe it does show that we are each pretty partial to the characters we enjoy > most and we see the good in what they do rather then the bad. Could it be > that Jurgen trained Michael in the art of manipulating beautiful women??!! > And being that Michael is so much better looking the whole thing between them > was Jurgens jealousy over Michael becoming better at it than him?! > > Do please all take this in the funny manor it is intended! It has been a long > day and this was such a good light hearted way to end it. > > va > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-25 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - ("Colin L. Whipple" <colincpaNOSPAM@soca.com>)


Perhaps teacher's pet was a poor choice of words, but he was still grabbing special privileges for himself. His co-workers in Section would be bound to resent it. Colin Dentav wrote in message <19980925220706.29644.00001839@ng02.aol.com>... > >>If I was his co-worker, that would have irked me very much. I have worked >>with 'teacher's pets" before, and it was very unpleasant. >> >>Colin >> >> >> >></PRE></HTML> > >But here is where I see a completely different set of circumstances then many >of you do. > >In order to be teachers pet, a follower, a good soldier, etc. one has to obey >authority without question. Michael does this. Nikita doesn't. Certainly >Jurgen did not. >

1998-09-25 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (EZBreezyTGIF <ELZBURNS@Prodigy.Net>)


"Suzita" <SUGEO@worldnet.att.net> writes: > > Good post Denise. But I would point out that Jurgen knew he couldn't >be > touched. a little something about intel against section? >He was not brave, > in my book. Just dastardly. > > Suzita > Amen.... I think the thing that spoke volumes about his lack of true character (and would have eventually turned fair minded/team player Nikita against him) was his open refusal to attend the debriefing with his fellow ops... Granted, one thing to get a few side perks and make a few concessions with the higher ups, but to act like you are too good to carry out the most mundane tasks that your "team mates" are expected to do is, well, a quick way to earn the dislike and of those around you. And to flaunt it in front of them is well, political suicide.... EZBee, Still hold hand up for the Michael suicide mission.

1998-09-25 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (Colin Whipple <colincpaNOSPAM@soca.com>)


EZBreezyTGIF wrote in message <6ugcjk$9a7o$1@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>... >"Suzita" <SUGEO@worldnet.att.net> writes: > > >> Good post Denise. But I would point out that Jurgen knew he couldn't >>be >> touched. a little something about intel against section? >>He was not brave, >> in my book. Just dastardly. >> >> Suzita >> > >Amen.... >I think the thing that spoke volumes about his lack of true character >(and would have eventually turned fair minded/team player >Nikita against him) was his open refusal to attend the debriefing >with his fellow ops... > >Granted, one thing to get a few side perks and make a few concessions with >the higher ups, but to act like you are too good to carry out the most >mundane tasks that your "team mates" >are expected to do is, well, a quick way to earn the dislike and >of those around you. > >And to flaunt it in front of them is well, political suicide.... If I was his co-worker, that would have irked me very much. I have worked with 'teacher's pets" before, and it was very unpleasant. Colin

1998-09-25 00:00:00 - Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (dentav@aol.com)


As reluctant as I am to further this discussion I do want to make it crystal clear that my concern for and unacceptance of Michael's manipulations vs. Jurgen's is because I think they were like night and day. With Michael, I as in ME PERSONALLY as in myself, have always had to make a clear distinction in Michael's manipulations as to whether they are Section based, Michael based or both. Add on top of that to what if any effect does the aforementioned combination have on Nikita's life, health and well being. So its not so simple as to say we like Jurgen so we love anything he does and therefore he can be a jerk and get away with it. I don't operate like that. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck acts like a duck, looks like a duck...its a duck. Or subsitute an I for U and you get the picture. But with Michael there are always questions that lead back to his intentions in my book. Questions that to this day are unresolved for me. And I can tell you right now that Bruce Payne ala Jurgen ain't gettin no free passes from me because I like HIM, no if he lied, cheated, manipulated for his gain, and hurt the woman he loved then I'd have serious problems with him too. Just as I would if the two characters were played in reverse. And this leads back to my whole point about Jurgen. Jurgen, as incorrigble nonconformist 5% club extraordinaire did not make his decisions about Nikita with one ear, eye or side of brain directed at the Section. MIchael does. In fact, my main attraction to Nikita, Jurgen and Walter has been their almost revolting stance against the Section. In a place like Section its little personal victories that matter rather than whole scale revolts because the institution is so overwhelming. Hence my immediate and deep understanding and appreciation of Jurgen. Anyone who would risk their lives covering for a woman he just met and a man with whom he has a turbulent history is a good person in my book. And I'm not so sure he did it FOR them as he did to do it AGAINST the Section. And being the rebel I am that is a man after my own heart... JMHO Denise

1998-09-25 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (Suzita <SUGEO@worldnet.att.net>)


Dentav wrote in message < > >Hence my immediate and deep understanding and appreciation of Jurgen. Anyone >who would risk their lives covering for a woman he just met and a man with whom >he has a turbulent history is a good person in my book. And I'm not so sure he >did it FOR them as he did to do it AGAINST the Section. > Good post Denise. But I would point out that Jurgen knew he couldn't be touched. a little something about intel against section? He was not brave, in my book. Just dastardly. Suzita

1998-09-25 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (dentav@aol.com)


Yeah Suz... I knew it would go back to that intel. But when we saw him do that for Nikita and Michael we didn't know about the intel. I'd already formulated my opinion on him based on Spec Ops and then Third Person. By the time AZ rolled around I was sure he was in line to be annoited for Sainthood, or the Nobel Peace Prize or perhaps honorary President or King of some really cool and enlightened nation...but then reality set in. = ) Denise

1998-09-25 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (va_linda@my-dejanews.com)


In article <19980924203759.07265.00000819@ng101.aol.com>, dentav@aol.com (Dentav) wrote: > > As reluctant as I am to further this discussion I do want to make it crystal > clear that my concern for and unacceptance of Michael's manipulations vs. > Jurgen's is because I think they were like night and day. Again Denise thanks for clearing that up,I am glad to hear that it is not the act of manipulation itself that bothers you. We just have very different opinions on his intentions. > With Michael, I as in ME PERSONALLY as in myself, have always had to make a > clear distinction in Michael's manipulations as to whether they are Section > based, Michael based or both. Add on top of that to what if any effect does > the aforementioned combination have on Nikita's life, health and well being. > > So its not so simple as to say we like Jurgen so we love anything he does and > therefore he can be a jerk and get away with it. I don't operate like that. I could buy that Denise but when you try and paint Michael in a negative light by saying something as silly as...Micheal blackmailed kudrin by threatening him if he backed out of their bargain and did not say that Nikita had been held hostage I feel like because of your dislike of the character you are really really reaching for something to pick on. Especially when his actions solidified their story and the guy got what he wanted, which was to die. Also you mentioned lying to his superiors during the arc and since the "lie" was something both him and Nikita agreed on and it had to be done in order to bring her back in without being immediately cancelled I feel like again you are really really reaching for absurd examples to again show Michael in a negative light. > > If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck acts like a duck, looks like a > duck...its a duck. Or subsitute an I for U and you get the picture. I just haven't seen that with regards to your opinions on the characters of LFN. I see you painting Jurgen out to be perfect while ignoring his negative aspets or making excuses for them. I also see you over and over again try to bring up sometimes valid and sometimes really absurd points to rake Michael across the coals with. I have never heard an ounce of critism from you about Jurgen and even those that like him admit that he had faults. I think you choose to see the better part of Jurgen's character and see the negative aspects of Michaels. I do often see the good in Michael but I often explain that I like the ruthless side of him and that I in no way see him as an angel. > > But with Michael there are always questions that lead back to his intentions in > my book. Questions that to this day are unresolved for me. I think the writers want you to quesiton Michael's intent at times, it is part of the suspense. In Escape I was on the edge of my seat wondering if it was allr real or he was just trying to get her to stick around so she wouldn't be cancelled. I like to think he started out to manipulate her but some real feelings came through and surprised even him. But while you say you have unresolved qustions about Michael's intent you seem to have none about Jurgens. A character that wasn't around for long and we really didn't get alot of history on. There are gaping holes in some of the things he said and did and himself was obsessed with the game "go" where he said that..every move is a cover for something else. I wondered what Jurgen was covering for. You seem to accept everything he said as truth right away, even after he lied to Nikita. So it still seems to me that you are giving him much more benefit of the doubt. > > And I can tell you right now that Bruce Payne ala Jurgen ain't gettin no free > passes from me because I like HIM, no if he lied, cheated, manipulated for his > gain, and hurt the woman he loved then I'd have serious problems with him too. > Just as I would if the two characters were played in reverse. But he did lie and manipulate Nikita for his gain. He told her that Michael coudln't love and never loved Simone. He obviously had an axe to grind against Michael and was smart enough to know which buttons to push to bring Nikita closer to him. I haven't seen Michael manipulate her for his gain yet. But again that is where we disagree on intentions here. > > > Hence my immediate and deep understanding and appreciation of Jurgen. Anyone > who would risk their lives covering for a woman he just met and a man with whom > he has a turbulent history is a good person in my book. And I'm not so sure he > did it FOR them as he did to do it AGAINST the Section. > > And being the rebel I am that is a man after my own heart... So you identify with his character, that is obvious. And I mean none of this as a personal attack against you except since you have sited your personal reason for speaking about characters a certain way I have included my opinion about them. But I think if you were to take an honest look at yourself I think you would see that you do give Jurgen way more benefit of the doubt than you do Michael. Your posts seem reall biased to me but that is just my personal opinion and I don't make myself out to be perfect either. I sincerely hope they have another character on the show that you like even half as much. For the life of me I will never understand your attraction to him but it is nice to really have a character on the show that you enjoy so much. You seem to put alot of energy into this guest character that has long been killed off and I can't help but feel it is all a moot point. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion and the debates are fun. But since you posted about your personal intentions I just had to mention that it's not coming across that way, at least to me anyway. va > > JMHO > Denise > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-26 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (khimera@my-dejanews.com)


In article <6ueq0s$hn1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "Suzita" <SUGEO@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > Good post Denise. But I would point out that Jurgen knew he couldn't be > touched. a little something about intel against section? He was not brave, > in my book. Just dastardly. > > Suzita Good point Suz Jurgen was interesting but the cold hard reality is it cost him nothing to keep silent and he almost got lucky from it.What was his motives because he sure got real cozy with her awfully fast...Why if he was interested in Nikita was he so interested in quzzing her about Michael's actions and such??? There was to many unanswered questions.. They started out with Jurgen's character going one direction then changed horses mid-stream. To bad really I found the chemistry between Michael and Jurgen more fascinating than the lack luster one between him and Nikita. The love scene if it could be called that wasn't sexy it didn't have snap or sizzle it looked painful and uncomfortable kinda like two porcupines trying to do muskrat love. I saw nothing hero-ish in Jurgen either he was simply someone that found a way to hold Section at bay for awhile so he could go his own way.And that life looked like a seriously upper income life.I have more respect and find Nikita more of a hero because she tries to have a life and stand up to Section without the benefit of damaging intel a fancy house or a expensive sports car. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-26 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (dentav@aol.com)


>If I was his co-worker, that would have irked me very much. I have worked >with 'teacher's pets" before, and it was very unpleasant. > >Colin > > > ></PRE></HTML> But here is where I see a completely different set of circumstances then many of you do. In order to be teachers pet, a follower, a good soldier, etc. one has to obey authority without question. Michael does this. Nikita doesn't. Certainly Jurgen did not. So therefore he could not qualify as a pet because he had no intention of playing by the book according to the Section. IMHO. IF, IF, IF (yes, its big if...) he was doing it to say 'screw you and your warped rules and your fanatical way of thinking... then I think he is a revolutionary. And perhaps as I explained before the only way to use his leverage was with material possessions. Who knows maybe he lived in a slum compared to what Ops, Maddy or Michael live in. = ) Rank has its privileges... My point is, and yes I do have one, is that one needs to be of a certain mind set to be in the military. I could never be. I would not last for one day. I admit it. I don't believe in random wholesale and whole scale killing for whatever the reason. This does not make me a better person than anyone just different. And if Jurgen had indeed come back from the dead or had a near death experience he could have seen, heard, or felt something that would make him uneasy with the disposable aspect of life that Section tries to instill in its operatives. This makes me wonder how in the world Nikita got chosen in the beginning. Was there a psychological test? If there were they would have found out in a flash that she did not have the right stuff to be a level 5. Jurgen may have at one time but in the end it was questionable. IMHO And that is why I love them both. Because they question, refuse, disregard authority they feel is immoral, illegal and unconscienable. Just like I would. JMHO Denise

1998-09-26 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (dentav@aol.com)


>Perhaps teacher's pet was a poor choice of words, but he was >still grabbing special privileges for himself. His >co-workers in Section would be bound to resent it. > >Colin > > That is if they weren't doing their own power grabs...= ) I honestly think in a place like that if you are inclined to try to keep alittle sense of personal dignity and control you would use any means you can to thwart the Section... I bet Walters's used a few, we know Nikita has. Maybe even Michael. I just bet though they each may have had their own niches as far as what they demanded in return... Something tells me that while Section preaches that it will kill you if you don't cooperate and do the job that in reality its more of a I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine sort of place. It would have to be or they would constantly be retraining and recruiting because of the heavy numbers of people who could not or would not play the game. I think when they find someone who will, without question, play their game they will do whatever it takes to keep that person on board, happy and effective. I can't wait to find out what they've been giving Michael for his service. JMHO Denise

1998-09-26 00:00:00 - Re: Jurgen the manipulator! - (rubyeuropa@my-dejanews.com)


In article <19980922231752.12755.00000469@ng13.aol.com>, dentav@aol.com (Dentav) wrote: > > I think that Jurgen told Nikita the TRUTH when he told her that Michael was > dead inside and he made her dead too. Or was that simply *Jurgen's* version of the truth? Jurgen is not Michael, so he couldn't possibly know what Michael truly feels. No one can, except Michael. And I think a lot of times Michael doesn't even have a clue <g> > In the script it says that Nikita is angered by Jurgen's remarks that Nikita > would do anything Michael told her to because she was his slave. That she would > have sex with him if he asked her to. Why was she angry? That's why I thought that's what Michael meant about "do what you have to." I interpreted that statement as having Nikita try to "sway" Jurgen in the age-old way (she wouldn't be the first woman to do so, in reality or fantasy). And I thought that was why Nikita was so incensed when Jurgen said that... > himself and her. For she would have been cancelled had she proceeded to kill > him. That's why I have a hard time believing Michael wanted Nikita to kill Jurgen. Michael strikes me as more logical-minded, methodical, than that... -- Ruby ~~starting a landslide in my ego~~ -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-26 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (rita7@pacbell.net)


>Perhaps teacher's pet was a poor choice of words, but he was >still grabbing special privileges for himself. His >co-workers in Section would be bound to resent it. > >Colin Colin, I agreed with your assessment. To me a teacher's pet is not someone who follows the rules, but is someone who gets around the rules by kissing up. Looked like that to me. Rita "Love will build a bridge . . . . Hmm, wish it would build me a patio."

1998-09-26 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (va_linda@my-dejanews.com)


> > Good point Suz Jurgen was interesting but the cold hard reality is it cost him > nothing to keep silent and he almost got lucky from it.What was his motives > because he sure got real cozy with her awfully fast...Why if he was interested > in Nikita was he so interested in quzzing her about Michael's actions and > such??? Once Jurgen told Nikita Michael did not love her or Simone I didn't trust him but when he tried to question her about Michael I knew the guy was up to no good. Probably gathering up information for future blackmail and he had Nikita on the line hook line and sinker. I think as a psyc. op he knew just what to say to her and what she wanted to hear. > There was to many unanswered questions.. They started out with Jurgen's > character going one direction then changed horses mid-stream. To bad really I > found the chemistry between Michael and Jurgen more fascinating than the lack > luster one between him and Nikita. I agree they should have used Jurgens character as more of a threat to Michael and Nikita's story then to try and add him in as a third person. He went from mister scary guy to a nervous schoolboy asking her out on a date. Lost possibilities there of a great story line if you ask me. Although I realize they had to break up Nikita and Michael and that is how they chose to do it. Still I think it could have been much better done. The love scene if it could be called that > wasn't sexy it didn't have snap or sizzle it looked painful and uncomfortable > kinda like two porcupines trying to do muskrat love. Thank you! Someone else saw that! I mean the girl look so uncomfortable even Jurgen commented on it! I didn't see a spark fly between them. > > I saw nothing hero-ish in Jurgen either he was simply someone that found a > way to hold Section at bay for awhile so he could go his own way.And that > life looked like a seriously upper income life.I have more respect and find > Nikita more of a hero because she tries to have a life and stand up to > Section without the benefit of damaging intel a fancy house or a expensive > sports car. I agree Jurgen blackmailed for personal wealth and to be able to talk back to ops. When Nikita had damaging info on section in End Game she considered using it to help others and was willing to sacrifice herself. Also Michael and Nikita are much more of a hero for making the best of their situation rather than giving up. I saw him as more of a martyr than a hero. va > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

1998-09-26 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (dentav@aol.com)


>I saw nothing hero-ish in Jurgen either he was simply someone that found a >way to hold Section at bay for awhile so he could go his own way.And that >life looked like a seriously upper income life.I have more respect and find >Nikita more of a hero because she tries to have a life and stand up to >Section without the benefit of damaging intel a fancy house or a expensive >sports car. > > I can agree with this. I saw Jurgen as a human. No need for heroes in my book. I see Nikita as one as well. The two have bucked the Section ploy of turning them into unempathetic, uncompassionate, unfeeling, unthinking robots and have held onto their humanness. I see this as heroic. But I doubt either of them would want accolades for it. Rather, they would want the acknowledgement and appreciation that they somehow managed NOT to have their 'souls sucked out of them the first year.' I think being able to live with themselves and sleep at night would be reward enough for them. Denise

1998-09-26 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (Suzita <SUGEO@worldnet.att.net>)


What appears to be 'teacher's pet treatment' to those not in the know, may have hidden reasons. Not just because someone is favored. Suzita Colin L. Whipple wrote in message ... >Perhaps teacher's pet was a poor choice of words, but he was >still grabbing special privileges for himself. His >co-workers in Section would be bound to resent it. > >Colin > >Dentav wrote in message ><19980925220706.29644.00001839@ng02.aol.com>... >> >>>If I was his co-worker, that would have irked me very >much. I have worked >>>with 'teacher's pets" before, and it was very unpleasant. >>> >>>Colin >>> >>> >>> >>></PRE></HTML> >> >>But here is where I see a completely different set of >circumstances then many >>of you do. >> >>In order to be teachers pet, a follower, a good soldier, >etc. one has to obey >>authority without question. Michael does this. Nikita >doesn't. Certainly >>Jurgen did not. >> > >

1998-09-27 00:00:00 - Re: Double Standards, Double Speak, Double Trouble - (rita7@pacbell.net)


>> wasn't sexy it didn't have snap or sizzle it looked painful and uncomfortable >> kinda like two porcupines trying to do muskrat love. > >Thank you! Someone else saw that! I mean the girl look so uncomfortable even >Jurgen commented on it! I didn't see a spark fly between them. > >> Yep. She looked almost as antsy as she did in Open Heart. Rita "Love will build a bridge . . . . Hmm, wish it would build me a patio."