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1999-12-16 00:00:00 - Grading season 3 - ("David B." <bothecat@hotmail.com>)


Basics, Part II = B+ Flashback = C The Chute = A- The Swarm = B- False Profits = C+ Remember = C Sacred Ground = D Future's End, Part I and II = B+ Warlord = B+ The Q and the Grey = B- Macrocosm = B Fair Trade = B- Alter Ego = C Coda = B- Blood Fever = D Unity = B Darkling = C Rise = D Favorite Son = C Before and After = A+ Real Life = B- Distant Origin = B+ Displaced = B Worst Case Scenario = B+ Scorpion = A Overall Grade: B -- Dennis Miller on the Millennium: "Whorin' and warrin' but never borin'." http://pages.whowhere.com/entertainment/scififan/

1999-12-16 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - ("David B." <bothecat@hotmail.com>)


"Ta'Teria [High Priest of Temple Janeway]" wrote: > > David B. <bothecat@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:3859CE76.6FC38A6A@hotmail.com... > > Macrocosm = B > > Dude, Two Words: JANEWAY IN TANKTOP!!! > > ok, so thats three.... > > excuse, I'm having a memory of that episode > > *drool* > > :::THUD::: Yeah, I love that episode. We need more episodes with Janeway in a tank top getting all sweaty. -- Dennis Miller on the Millennium: "Whorin' and warrin' but never borin'." http://pages.whowhere.com/entertainment/scififan/

1999-12-17 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Robrey <robrey@mailbag.com>)


"David B." wrote: > > Basics, Part II = B+ > I decided to watch the Season premiere to see if the show had improved since "THRESHOLD". All the eps I saw in reruns were either after this, or in tapes I had sent to me at sea that I originally told the person taping them not to bother with anymore. Overall, I liked Tom's part of the story, but the rest left me pretty cold. B- > Flashback = C > C-, caught in reruns, "Basics" wasn't enough of a reason to return watching the show. > The Chute = A- > Haven't seen it, but it sounds outstanding from Jim Wright's review! > The Swarm = B- > Never saw it. > False Profits = C+ > Never saw it. > Remember = C > Unbeknownst to me at the time, the person I had taping them resumed doing so less intermittently at this point. B'Elanna looked mighty fine in that nightie, <EG> but the story was predictable propaganda. Propaganda I *agree* with, but that doesn't make for a very good story. > Sacred Ground = D > F-. It's a good thing I caught this in reruns, had I seen it at the time I may have never watched the show again. I've ranted about this enough before, but in short the extraordinarily poor execution destroyed a passable theme. > Future's End, Part I and II = B+ > B. It was kind of silly, but it worked for me. > Warlord = B+ > Never saw it. :( The person taping it missed it. I would have *loved* to have seen Kes as a Richard III-type in a tight catsuit... <leer> > The Q and the Grey = B- > C. Silly story, great lines and sets. > Macrocosm = B > Never saw. > Fair Trade = B- > B. Another good Neelix story. > Alter Ego = C > Never saw. > Coda = B- > Never saw. > Blood Fever = D > D. A fairly decent concept ruined by the revelation that Vulcans rape if they have to. Probably a good sci-fi angle, I just didn't *need* to know that... :-| > Unity = B > Never saw. > Darkling = C > D-. This just didn't work on any level for me. It wasn't Picardo's best outing either. He was...unconvincing. > Rise = D > B. I liked this, particularly the opportunity Neelix finally got to his own back from Tuvok. He may have come off as a spoiled child in some regards, but it...just *worked* for me. Russ proved he was quite capable as the action hero here too. > Favorite Son = C > Absurd. D > Before and After = A+ > A+!!! I saw this live and I loved it so much it rekindled my interest in the show. I went and dug out the tapes that had been sent to me that I never watched, and started rewatching the show regularly again. The night this aired I was up all night watching all the tapes I had of the show and have been a regular viewer since. Up until this point I had seen only "BASICS II" since the original airing of "THRESHOLD". > Real Life = B- > C+, not a great story, but saved by B'Elanna's disgust at the transparent satire of the old "DONNA REED SHOW". I also loved the bit about the punk kid wanting to be a Klingon. Perfect characterization of teenage punks! <G> > Distant Origin = B+ > B. Very interesting show, good role for Chakotay, perhaps one of the only eps I really liked him where he wasn't the action hero. > Displaced = B > B+. A good action role hero with Chakotay, and the best Paris-Torres characterization of the show. They were funny, feisty, and in the end, tender. I loved it! That's the way they should act together! > Worst Case Scenario = B+ > A-. Another great ep, the only reason it loses points is because it was just another 'holodeck goes wild!' ep. The dialogue and conflict between Paris and Tuvok was superb! > Scorpion = A > A. Outstanding! It worked perfectly, particularly the confrontation between Chakotay and Janeway in the ready room. Everyone was hyped up a bit for this one, it seemed. > Overall Grade: B > The last several eps marked a dramatic improvement in the show from previous years. Mind you I didn't see many live since "THRESHOLD", but overall I think some new life was breathed into the series. I don't recall a point before in the series where they had as many good eps back to back as they had from "BEFORE AND AFTER" to "SCORPION". "REAL LIFE" was the only mediocre one, and at least that was funny in some ways. B. Cordially, Robrey -- "It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat" --Theodore Roosevelt, 1899

1999-12-17 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (arlie88@aol.comNoSpam)


>> Who cares anyway? He would've shown us his one and only facial expression and that would've counted for shock ore relief or I don't know what... << LOL! Harsh.... >> Agreed. And Grace Lee Whitney wasn't terribly good either... but I *loved= * Tim and George together (and I get the impression that they both enjoyed filming = the ep) << Grace Lee Whitney was painfully bad at some points. But geez, it had been so long since I'd seen Janice Rand, I was willing to overlook it. And I have to say, George Takei looked pretty good for a guy in his fifties... >>> >> The Chute =3D A- << it also was a bit too violent for my taste... << It was difficult to watch at some points, but that added to its power, IMO. And the ending was uplifting. More so than "Timeless," really, since Harry got it right the first time. <g> >> >> Remember =3D C << but zero impact on the B'Elanna character... << Yeah, but that's always the case, isn't it? >>> >> Alter Ego =3D C << > > [B+] It had its problems, but I like Harry and Tuvok together. Not one but *two* adult men falling for a hologram? (at least they think = she is one). << I see that as willingness on their parts to overlook surface appearances/stereotypes. Just as they might grow to love someone who is physically unattractive, or a member of an enemy race, once they got to know him or her. They treat the Doctor as a human, not as a hologram...because he acts like more than a hologram. Their doing the same with Marayna wasn't all that improbable, IMO. >> > This episode really needed more Tom Paris. Hey, that was probably the best thing of the ep! Blessed be the chicken pox! << Oh, man! Yer cruel! LOL! -- Arlie

1999-12-17 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com>)


Arlie wrote: > >> Basics, Part II =3D B+ << > > [B] What happened to Suder was predictable, but I liked seeing him be = a hero. > I was less impressed with Seska's end. Talk about "Miramanee syndrome.= " (Trek > medical technology can work miracles. Except when it's the girlfriend = of the > week. She gets hit by a rock, and "She's dead, Jim. There's nothing I = can > do.") And we never did get to see Chakotay's reaction to finding out t= he kid > wasn't his. > Who cares anyway? He would've shown us his one and only facial expression= and that would've counted for shock ore relief or I don't know what... > And hey, Paris gets to be a hero. I liked that last scene on the bridg= e. > Everyone looking kind of grubby, as you'd expect after their field trip= =2E > Janeway congratulates Paris, on the bridge in front of everyone. Harry= takes > the long way around to Ops, just so he can pat Tom on the back before t= aking > his station. (And I notice as he's going up the stairs that he's got a= splotch > of dust on his butt. Gee, can I get a job painting dust on Garrett Wan= g's > butt? And if so, why didn't my high school guidance counselor ever *te= ll* me? > ;-) > LOL! > >> Flashback =3D C << > > [B+] I liked seeing Tuvok's past. I like the J-Tu friendship. I like= d seeing > Capt. Sulu. But the "mind virus" thing was kinda lame. > Agreed. And Grace Lee Whitney wasn't terribly good either... but I *loved= * Tim and George together (and I get the impression that they both enjoyed filming = the ep) > >> The Chute =3D A- << > > [A-] The scenes with Janeway on Voyager weren't nearly as compelling a= s the > scenes with Paris and Kim in the slammer. If they were, I'd give this = an A+. > it also was a bit too violent for my taste... > >> The Swarm =3D B- << > > [C] I just found this one mediocre all around. > Janeway treated Tuvok like dirt in this one :-( > >> False Profits =3D C+ << > > [D] I was bored silly with this one. But then, I don't like Ferengi. > only *some* Ferengi. But it's always a mistake to send the two most borin= g characters on a mission together... > >> Remember =3D C << > > [B+] Good showcase for Dawson. She was great as the Enaran girl, and = with > Chuckles. A dramatically interesting story that also had intellectual = appeal. > but zero impact on the B'Elanna character... > >> Sacred Ground =3D D << > > [D] Maybe D-. This was just boring. > Yawn! > >> Future's End, Part I and II =3D B+ << > > [C-] This one just didn't do it for me. Raine annoyed me, Paris in 20= th > century mode annoyed me, that Bill Gates clone annoyed me. And don't g= et me > started on "What happened to the Eugenics Wars of the '90s?" > > In general, I don't like seeing the Trek characters in the current time= =2E I > find it jarring. It throws me out of the story, seeing them in contemp= orary > clothing, setting, etc. I didn't like ST IV, either. > I don't have problems with that. What *did* annoy me is the beginning of = "cool Tommy trashes terribly boring Tuvok" sub-plot. "Freakasaurus"! Indeed. :-= ((( > >> Warlord =3D B+ << > > [A-] I liked this one, a lot. Very interesting SF idea, and a great > performance by Lien. > One of my favorites > >> The Q and the Grey =3D B- << > > [C] The beginning was funny, but once they started with the Civil War = thing, > it really bogged down. Please, leave it to Ken Burns. > boring > >> Macrocosm =3D B << > > [C-] Another one that's just boring. > agreed > >> Fair Trade =3D B- << > > [C-] Lame-o-rama. > nice showcase for Neelix, definitely better than the next one... > >> Alter Ego =3D C << > > [B+] It had its problems, but I like Harry and Tuvok together. > Not one but *two* adult men falling for a hologram? (at least they think = she is one). Puhlease!!!! What a heap of crap! Small wonder TPTB didn't want to = inflict this story on their favorite Butt Boy and that this stinker had to go to = Tuvok... > >> Coda =3D B- << > > [B-] There were some nice moments. Too bad they weren't real. > and *far* too much J/C for my taste, *plus* it's a one-hour long commerci= al for Jeri Taylor's novel "Mosaic" :-(((( > >> Blood Fever =3D D << > > [D-] Stupid, and even a bit offensive. > *the* absolute most offensive ep of any Trek show *ever*. The only one th= at has the potential of harming an *actor*. A public slap in the face for Tim Ru= ss and all his fans. :-(((( > >> Unity =3D B << > > [C+] I'd probably give this a higher grade, if it were about anyone bu= t > Chuckles. > exactly. But since it's him I almost fell asleep... > >> Darkling =3D C << > > [D-] Not even Picardo could save this one. Dumb, derivative, and bori= ng. > agreed > >> Rise =3D D << > > [C] Okay, Tuvok looks like kind of a jerk here, so does Neelix with his unjustified insisting on somebody checking the ro= of *at once* > but it was a nice Neelix ep. > What can I say, I'm a sucker for "relationship" episodes. (Not *that* = kind of > relationship!) > the acting saved this one from a lower grade. > >> Favorite Son =3D C << > > [B] Actually, I'd give the first quarter an A, the rest a C. Loved Ha= rry's > shock and guilt as he realizes what he's done, especially to B'Elanna. = And the > way she calls him "Spot." (How come Torres is the only one who gets to= call > Harry nicknames?) But once they arrive at Taresia, it turns into a "Sp= ock's > Brain" campfest. Sir Harry the Chaste on the planet of beautiful women= who > can't act. <g> Entertaining enough, but kind of a disappointment afte= r the > bang-up beginning. > > This episode really needed more Tom Paris. Hey, that was probably the best thing of the ep! Blessed be the chicken p= ox! > His absence was glaring, both when > Harry was moping around the ship under armed guard, and in the dream se= quence, > where we see Janeway and Chuckles...and some nameless crewman at conn. = Yeah, I > know there were logistical reasons why this was done, but still.... > > I did enjoy the Paris-Kim Bonding Moment=99 at the end. > > >> Before and After =3D A+ << > > [A] Fascinating look at what might have been. And a humungous reset b= utton, > of course. > great showcase for Jennifer Lien... > >> Real Life =3D B- << > > [C] You know, I've come to realize I don't like Doc eps as much as mos= t > viewers seem to. I love the character, but not as much when he's cente= r-stage. > The Doc eps, like the Seven eps and the Paris eps, tend to be pretty > repetitive, theme-wise. But we don't often get Paris eps, and Seven ha= s been > around only half as long, so it's more noticeable with the Doc eps. > I mind more about the Tommy eps, Picardo at least is a good actor... but = this one *was* silly! > >> Distant Origin =3D B+ << > > [B+] I liked it, even though it was a Chakotay ep. <g> > tnkfully he wasn't all that prominent... and the guy who played the Voth = scientist was great! > >> Displaced =3D B << > > [C] Some nice character moments, but Paris/Torres just doesn't do it f= or me. > nope - that ruined the ep for me... > >> Worst Case Scenario =3D B+ << > > [B+] Pretty neat idea. Tuvok and Paris were actually good together he= re. *relatively* good, or *comparatively* good... > It > was fun to see the old crew contrasted with the new crew. > > And I liked seeing Paris in a security uniform. Suits his coloring bet= ter than > the red. He really did remind me of a young William Shatner (and I mea= n that > in a good way) when he was wearing the color formerly known as Command = Gold. > > >> Scorpion =3D A << > > [B+] The J/C stuff didn't do it for me, but the rest was pretty cool. = Nice > FX. Suspenseful and exciting. Harry Kim in tears in sickbay. (I'd pr= obably > cry, too, if I were covered in that much K-Y Jelly.... ;-) > > >> Overall Grade: B << > > I think my overall grade comes out [C+]. Not quite as good as seasons= 1 and > 2. > definitely not quite as good as the early beginnings... Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager!

1999-12-17 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com>)


Therese Gray wrote: > > >Alter Ego = C > > > C > > Ho ho ho ho... > > I liked this one. > > A (ha ha ha...) > not even *I* like this one! It's pure crap! Embarrassing to watch how not one but *two* adult men fall for the blow-up doll. Not to mention the "white Vulcan = sociable, nice guy; black Vulcan = socially inept person" juxtaposition :-((((The only things that make this ep at least marginally watchable are the directing and the acting... Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager!

1999-12-17 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Ali Andrews <ali@jupiter23.demon.co.uk>)


David B. wrote in message <3859CE76.6FC38A6A@hotmail.com>... >Basics, Part II = B+ A >Flashback = C D >The Chute = A- A+ >The Swarm = B- C >False Profits = C+ E >Remember = C D >Sacred Ground = D C >Future's End, Part I and II = B+ B >Warlord = B+ B >The Q and the Grey = B- C >Macrocosm = B C >Fair Trade = B- C >Alter Ego = C C >Coda = B- C >Blood Fever = D C >Unity = B B >Darkling = C C >Rise = D D >Favorite Son = C D >Before and After = A+ A >Real Life = B- F >Distant Origin = B+ A >Displaced = B B >Worst Case Scenario = B+ B >Scorpion = A A >Overall Grade: B >-- >Dennis Miller on the Millennium: "Whorin' and warrin' but never borin'." > >http://pages.whowhere.com/entertainment/scififan/

1999-12-17 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Therese Gray <tgray@zetnet.co.uk>)


The message <83cvvb$2g7$3@plutonium.compulink.co.uk> from "Ali Andrews" <ali@jupiter23.demon.co.uk> contains these words: > David B. wrote in message <3859CE76.6FC38A6A@hotmail.com>... > >Basics, Part II = B+ > A I liked this one! A > >Flashback = C > D Err... B? C? > >The Chute = A- > A+ Same here... A+ :) > >The Swarm = B- > C B, maybe. > >False Profits = C+ > E It had Ferengi in it! That alone qualifies it to be F! > >Remember = C > D F > >Sacred Ground = D > C F > >Future's End, Part I and II = B+ > B A+ > >Warlord = B+ > B B > >The Q and the Grey = B- > C D > >Macrocosm = B > C I liked the Tak-Tak! Otherwise... D > >Fair Trade = B- > C I liked this one, sort of, for a Neelix ep, anyway... C > >Alter Ego = C > C Ho ho ho ho... I liked this one. A (ha ha ha...) > >Coda = B- > C Umm.... ???? B? > >Blood Fever = D > C I don't care! I liked the bits Vorik wasn't in. A- > >Unity = B > B A+++ :) > >Darkling = C > C F > >Rise = D > D F > >Favorite Son = C > D F > >Before and After = A+ > A A > >Real Life = B- > F B > >Distant Origin = B+ > A A+ > >Displaced = B > B A > >Worst Case Scenario = B+ > B A+ > >Scorpion = A > A A+ > >Overall Grade: B Overall... difficult, since most eps were either A or F... :) > >-- > >Dennis Miller on the Millennium: "Whorin' and warrin' but never borin'." > > > >http://pages.whowhere.com/entertainment/scififan/

1999-12-17 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - ("Ta'Teria [High Priest of Temple Janeway]" <tateria@yahoo.delete.this.you.poo.poo.head.com>)


David B. <bothecat@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3859CE76.6FC38A6A@hotmail.com... > Macrocosm = B Dude, Two Words: JANEWAY IN TANKTOP!!! ok, so thats three.... excuse, I'm having a memory of that episode *drool* :::THUD:::

1999-12-17 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (arlie88@aol.comNoSpam)


>> Basics, Part II = B+ << [B] What happened to Suder was predictable, but I liked seeing him be a hero. I was less impressed with Seska's end. Talk about "Miramanee syndrome." (Trek medical technology can work miracles. Except when it's the girlfriend of the week. She gets hit by a rock, and "She's dead, Jim. There's nothing I can do.") And we never did get to see Chakotay's reaction to finding out the kid wasn't his. And hey, Paris gets to be a hero. I liked that last scene on the bridge. Everyone looking kind of grubby, as you'd expect after their field trip. Janeway congratulates Paris, on the bridge in front of everyone. Harry takes the long way around to Ops, just so he can pat Tom on the back before taking his station. (And I notice as he's going up the stairs that he's got a splotch of dust on his butt. Gee, can I get a job painting dust on Garrett Wang's butt? And if so, why didn't my high school guidance counselor ever *tell* me? ;-) >> Flashback = C << [B+] I liked seeing Tuvok's past. I like the J-Tu friendship. I liked seeing Capt. Sulu. But the "mind virus" thing was kinda lame. >> The Chute = A- << [A-] The scenes with Janeway on Voyager weren't nearly as compelling as the scenes with Paris and Kim in the slammer. If they were, I'd give this an A+. >> The Swarm = B- << [C] I just found this one mediocre all around. >> False Profits = C+ << [D] I was bored silly with this one. But then, I don't like Ferengi. >> Remember = C << [B+] Good showcase for Dawson. She was great as the Enaran girl, and with Chuckles. A dramatically interesting story that also had intellectual appeal. >> Sacred Ground = D << [D] Maybe D-. This was just boring. >> Future's End, Part I and II = B+ << [C-] This one just didn't do it for me. Raine annoyed me, Paris in 20th century mode annoyed me, that Bill Gates clone annoyed me. And don't get me started on "What happened to the Eugenics Wars of the '90s?" In general, I don't like seeing the Trek characters in the current time. I find it jarring. It throws me out of the story, seeing them in contemporary clothing, setting, etc. I didn't like ST IV, either. >> Warlord = B+ << [A-] I liked this one, a lot. Very interesting SF idea, and a great performance by Lien. >> The Q and the Grey = B- << [C] The beginning was funny, but once they started with the Civil War thing, it really bogged down. Please, leave it to Ken Burns. >> Macrocosm = B << [C-] Another one that's just boring. >> Fair Trade = B- << [C-] Lame-o-rama. >> Alter Ego = C << [B+] It had its problems, but I like Harry and Tuvok together. >> Coda = B- << [B-] There were some nice moments. Too bad they weren't real. >> Blood Fever = D << [D-] Stupid, and even a bit offensive. >> Unity = B << [C+] I'd probably give this a higher grade, if it were about anyone but Chuckles. >> Darkling = C << [D-] Not even Picardo could save this one. Dumb, derivative, and boring. >> Rise = D << [C] Okay, Tuvok looks like kind of a jerk here, but it was a nice Neelix ep. What can I say, I'm a sucker for "relationship" episodes. (Not *that* kind of relationship!) >> Favorite Son = C << [B] Actually, I'd give the first quarter an A, the rest a C. Loved Harry's shock and guilt as he realizes what he's done, especially to B'Elanna. And the way she calls him "Spot." (How come Torres is the only one who gets to call Harry nicknames?) But once they arrive at Taresia, it turns into a "Spock's Brain" campfest. Sir Harry the Chaste on the planet of beautiful women who can't act. <g> Entertaining enough, but kind of a disappointment after the bang-up beginning. This episode really needed more Tom Paris. His absence was glaring, both when Harry was moping around the ship under armed guard, and in the dream sequence, where we see Janeway and Chuckles...and some nameless crewman at conn. Yeah, I know there were logistical reasons why this was done, but still.... I did enjoy the Paris-Kim Bonding Moment��� at the end. >> Before and After = A+ << [A] Fascinating look at what might have been. And a humungous reset button, of course. >> Real Life = B- << [C] You know, I've come to realize I don't like Doc eps as much as most viewers seem to. I love the character, but not as much when he's center-stage. The Doc eps, like the Seven eps and the Paris eps, tend to be pretty repetitive, theme-wise. But we don't often get Paris eps, and Seven has been around only half as long, so it's more noticeable with the Doc eps. >> Distant Origin = B+ << [B+] I liked it, even though it was a Chakotay ep. <g> >> Displaced = B << [C] Some nice character moments, but Paris/Torres just doesn't do it for me. >> Worst Case Scenario = B+ << [B+] Pretty neat idea. Tuvok and Paris were actually good together here. It was fun to see the old crew contrasted with the new crew. And I liked seeing Paris in a security uniform. Suits his coloring better than the red. He really did remind me of a young William Shatner (and I mean that in a good way) when he was wearing the color formerly known as Command Gold. >> Scorpion = A << [B+] The J/C stuff didn't do it for me, but the rest was pretty cool. Nice FX. Suspenseful and exciting. Harry Kim in tears in sickbay. (I'd probably cry, too, if I were covered in that much K-Y Jelly.... ;-) >> Overall Grade: B << I think my overall grade comes out [C+]. Not quite as good as seasons 1 and 2. -- Arlie

1999-12-17 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - ("Ta'Teria [High Priest of Temple Janeway]" <tateria@yahoo.delete.this.you.poo.poo.head.com>)


David B. <bothecat@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3859E07C.614B715@hotmail.com... > "Ta'Teria [High Priest of Temple Janeway]" wrote: > > > > David B. <bothecat@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:3859CE76.6FC38A6A@hotmail.com... > > > Macrocosm = B > > > > Dude, Two Words: JANEWAY IN TANKTOP!!! > > > > ok, so thats three.... > > > > excuse, I'm having a memory of that episode > > > > *drool* > > > > :::THUD::: > > Yeah, I love that episode. We need more episodes with Janeway in a tank > top getting all sweaty. Which is why I love that episode. I'd watch that over Seven any day of the week

1999-12-18 00:00:00 - Re:ATTN: Voy group makes The Onion - (TheShredder <THESHREDDER1@prodigy.net>)


> >>Our newsgroup made the 11/24 issue of The Onion. For those of you who don't know, it's a satirical newspaper, and often very funny. They have a Web edition at www.theonion.com .The article is titled "Star Trek Fan Pretty Sure Show Stole His Idea."> >> Heh, about 7 months ago, I did a stupid little Sliders parody making fun of the current groups status. People seemed to like it. A Few months later, I checked a fan site that has a pretty good track record for inside info. A few months ago, before the story I posted, the final episode of the season was something completly different. I checked it this time, and it almost mirrored my little story. Maby the Voyager and Slider writers are related? :p

1999-12-20 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Amarna <amarna@pipeline.com>)


On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:47:34 -0800, "David B." <bothecat@hotmail.com> wrote: >Basics, Part II = B+ B- Liked some of the scenes on the planet, The one after Hogan's death, for example, or Chak burning hair. But I was still having lingering misgivings about how Seska outfoxed Janeway in Basics I. >Flashback = C B+ Excellent J/Tuvok ep. >The Chute = A- B. This just didn't grab me as much as it did others. One thing: I remember how at the time people were really shocked that Janeway (but not necessarily sorry) went down to get them herself. Now, I guess nobody would be surprised. >The Swarm = B- Okay >False Profits = C+ Was that the one with the Ferengi? Then, D-. Ferengi: blech! Just-missing-the-wormhole-like-you-knew-they-would: blech! >Remember = C B+ Liked the character interaction between Janeway and B'Elanna and the fact that they showed B'Elanna's character actually participating at the death of her lover. >Sacred Ground = D A- One of my favorites. Janeway learns a thing or two about arrogance. Even though she buys the Doc's scientific explanation, she knows that's not why she did it. >Future's End, Part I and II = B+ agree >Warlord = B+ agree. I liked Lien a lot better as a warlord. I even liked her better as herself fighting the warlord. The regular character was too passive for my taste. >The Q and the Grey = B- > >Macrocosm = B B+ a guilty-pleasure shoot-em-up >Fair Trade = B- A- Showed us a lot about the ship and its crew as people >Alter Ego = C > >Coda = B- > >Blood Fever = D > >Unity = B > >Darkling = C D Awful mugging by the Doc. He came across as an almost comical bug-eyed psychopath. >Rise = D C a necessary Tuvok/Neelix episode >Favorite Son = C D >Before and After = A+ B >Real Life = B- C- I don't buy the premise. >Distant Origin = B+ C I don't buy the premise. >Displaced = B C >Worst Case Scenario = B+ A >Scorpion = A A > >Overall Grade: B -- Amarna

1999-12-21 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (arlie88@aol.comNoSpam)


> >>> >> Alter Ego =3D C << I don't know. It made them both look like idiots. And I can *really, really, really* understand why TPTB didn't want to inflict that story on their "wonderful" Tommy-boy. << Yeah. They save gems like "Threshold," "Vis a Vis," and "Alice" for Tom. "Alter Ego," flawed as it is, blows the socks off of most of Tom's episodes.... -- Arlie

1999-12-21 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Robrey <robrey@mailbag.com>)


Julianna Feigl wrote: > > Robrey wrote: > > > > "David B." wrote: > > > > Warlord = B+ > > > > > Never saw it. :( The person taping it missed it. I would have *loved* > > to have seen Kes as a Richard III-type in a tight catsuit... <leer> > > She's *fantastic* in that one! > So I've heard. Stop torturing me! <G> > <snip> > > > Alter Ego = C > > > > > Never saw. > > you didn't miss a thing. Harry and Tuvok *both* attracted to the > equivalent of a blow-up doll :-((((((( > Be glad Tommy was spared. He was the original protagonist (instead of > Tuvok) for that script - and he would've worked better for several > reasons, but of course TPTB didn't want *him* to look stupid - with > Tuvok or Harry it doesn't really matter apparently :-(((((( > > > > Coda = B- > > > > > Never saw. > > Thank God on your knees for missing that! > That bad, huh? > > > Blood Fever = D > > > > > D. A fairly decent concept ruined by the revelation that Vulcans rape > > if they have to. Probably a good sci-fi angle, I just didn't *need* to > > know that... :-| > > and an insult to Tim Russ anyway. If they couldn't come up with a pon > farr story for Tuvok, they should've left this alone. To show us that > they don't need him was not really what anybody was hoping for. > They tried to turn a Pon Farr story into s P/T saga...It didn't work, IMHO with or W/O the Tuvik Pon Farr, but parts were pretty good. > > > Unity = B > > > > > Never saw. > > > > > Darkling = C > > > > > D-. This just didn't work on any level for me. It wasn't Picardo's > > best outing either. He was...unconvincing. > > you're already the second person who said that... does that mean there > are those who think Bob has some limits to his range?????? > Yes, no one'r perfect, he was less than impressive in "WAKING MOMENTS" as well. > > > Rise = D > > > > > B. I liked this, particularly the opportunity Neelix finally got to > > his own back from Tuvok. > > He almost got Tuvok killed and never really apologized... > Granted, but that wasn't the sroty anyway... > > He may have come off as a spoiled child in > > some regards, but it...just *worked* for me. > > both were off and *way* exaggerating, Neelix was too ebullient, Tuvok > too stiff. > So sue me, I liked it! <g> > > Russ proved he was quite > > capable as the action hero here too. > > (sigh!) And what does that help him???? > > <snip> > > > Distant Origin = B+ > > > > > B. Very interesting show, good role for Chakotay, perhaps one of the > > only eps I really liked him where he wasn't the action hero. > > that's because he wasn't the focus of the ep - it was the Voth > scientist. And *he* was great! :-) > I iked him too, but Beltran was good here too.... > <snip> > > The last several eps marked a dramatic improvement in the show from > > previous years. Mind you I didn't see many live since "THRESHOLD", but > > overall I think some new life was breathed into the series. I don't > > recall a point before in the series where they had as many good eps back > > to back as they had from "BEFORE AND AFTER" to "SCORPION". "REAL LIFE" > > was the only mediocre one, and at least that was funny in some ways. > > the end of season 1, from "Heroes and Demons" through "Learning > Curve"... ("Cathexis" being the only weaker one) > "HEROES AND DEMONS" didn't move me much, though I liked the "BEOWULF" subtext and the warrior-babe. <G> > ... and there never was another season with so many crap eps so closely > together ("Alter Ego" through "Favorite Son": one more embarrassing than > the other...) > And that's true too, though I didn't see them in rapid succesion. Cordially, Robrey -- "It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat" --Theodore Roosevelt, 1899

1999-12-21 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com>)


Amarna wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:47:34 -0800, "David B." <bothecat@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >Flashback = C > > B+ Excellent J/Tuvok ep. the kind of ep we'll never see again :-((((( <snip> > >Rise = D > > C > a necessary Tuvok/Neelix episode "necessary"? IMO it came *very* close to destroying their relationship once and forever! They were closer before "Rise" than the ep might make you think they are. Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager!

1999-12-21 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com>)


Arlie wrote: > > >> Who cares anyway? He would've shown us his one and only facial expression > and that > would've counted for shock ore relief or I don't know what... << > > LOL! Harsh.... but true! > >> Agreed. And Grace Lee Whitney wasn't terribly good either... but I *loved= > * Tim and > George together (and I get the impression that they both enjoyed filming = > the ep) << > > Grace Lee Whitney was painfully bad at some points. But geez, it had been so > long since I'd seen Janice Rand, I was willing to overlook it. which is why I said "not terribly good" instead of "abysmal" :-) > And I have to say, George Takei looked pretty good for a guy in his fifties... > George is a phenomenon! And he's *adorable* :-) > >>> >> The Chute =3D A- << > > it also was a bit too violent for my taste... << > > It was difficult to watch at some points, but that added to its power, IMO. > And the ending was uplifting. More so than "Timeless," really, since Harry got > it right the first time. <g> maybe... but the violence really was a bit too much for me... > >> >> Remember =3D C << > > but zero impact on the B'Elanna character... << > > Yeah, but that's always the case, isn't it? unfortunately I must agree > >>> >> Alter Ego =3D C << > > > > [B+] It had its problems, but I like Harry and Tuvok together. > > Not one but *two* adult men falling for a hologram? (at least they think = > she is > one). << > > I see that as willingness on their parts to overlook surface > appearances/stereotypes. Just as they might grow to love someone who is > physically unattractive, we had that topic in "Lifesigns" already, so it was repetitive > or a member of an enemy race, once they got to know > him or her. > > They treat the Doctor as a human, not as a hologram...because he acts like more > than a hologram. Their doing the same with Marayna wasn't all that improbable, > IMO. > I don't know. It made them both look like idiots. And I can *really, really, really* understand why TPTB didn't want to inflict that story on their "wonderful" Tommy-boy. > >> > This episode really needed more Tom Paris. > > Hey, that was probably the best thing of the ep! Blessed be the chicken pox! > << > > Oh, man! Yer cruel! LOL! It's my honest opinion! :-) Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager!

1999-12-21 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com>)


Robrey wrote: > > "David B." wrote: > > Warlord = B+ > > > Never saw it. :( The person taping it missed it. I would have *loved* > to have seen Kes as a Richard III-type in a tight catsuit... <leer> She's *fantastic* in that one! <snip> > > Alter Ego = C > > > Never saw. you didn't miss a thing. Harry and Tuvok *both* attracted to the equivalent of a blow-up doll :-((((((( Be glad Tommy was spared. He was the original protagonist (instead of Tuvok) for that script - and he would've worked better for several reasons, but of course TPTB didn't want *him* to look stupid - with Tuvok or Harry it doesn't really matter apparently :-(((((( > > Coda = B- > > > Never saw. Thank God on your knees for missing that! > > Blood Fever = D > > > D. A fairly decent concept ruined by the revelation that Vulcans rape > if they have to. Probably a good sci-fi angle, I just didn't *need* to > know that... :-| and an insult to Tim Russ anyway. If they couldn't come up with a pon farr story for Tuvok, they should've left this alone. To show us that they don't need him was not really what anybody was hoping for. > > Unity = B > > > Never saw. > > > Darkling = C > > > D-. This just didn't work on any level for me. It wasn't Picardo's > best outing either. He was...unconvincing. you're already the second person who said that... does that mean there are those who think Bob has some limits to his range?????? > > Rise = D > > > B. I liked this, particularly the opportunity Neelix finally got to > his own back from Tuvok. He almost got Tuvok killed and never really apologized... > He may have come off as a spoiled child in > some regards, but it...just *worked* for me. both were off and *way* exaggerating, Neelix was too ebullient, Tuvok too stiff. > Russ proved he was quite > capable as the action hero here too. (sigh!) And what does that help him???? <snip> > > Distant Origin = B+ > > > B. Very interesting show, good role for Chakotay, perhaps one of the > only eps I really liked him where he wasn't the action hero. that's because he wasn't the focus of the ep - it was the Voth scientist. And *he* was great! :-) <snip> > The last several eps marked a dramatic improvement in the show from > previous years. Mind you I didn't see many live since "THRESHOLD", but > overall I think some new life was breathed into the series. I don't > recall a point before in the series where they had as many good eps back > to back as they had from "BEFORE AND AFTER" to "SCORPION". "REAL LIFE" > was the only mediocre one, and at least that was funny in some ways. the end of season 1, from "Heroes and Demons" through "Learning Curve"... ("Cathexis" being the only weaker one) ... and there never was another season with so many crap eps so closely together ("Alter Ego" through "Favorite Son": one more embarrassing than the other...) Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager!

1999-12-22 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Amarna <amarna@pipeline.com>)


On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:42:28 +0000, Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com> wrote: >Amarna wrote: >> >> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:47:34 -0800, "David B." <bothecat@hotmail.com> >> wrote: > > >> >Flashback = C >> >> B+ Excellent J/Tuvok ep. > >the kind of ep we'll never see again :-((((( > ><snip> >> >Rise = D >> >> C >> a necessary Tuvok/Neelix episode > >"necessary"? IMO it came *very* close to destroying their relationship >once and forever! They were closer before "Rise" than the ep might make >you think they are. > ???? Did you forget "Meld"? Tuvok has always had problems with Neelix. In "Rise" Neelix finally confronted him. Both characters learned something. Maybe I should change my rating to "B." -- Amarna

1999-12-22 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Amarna <amarna@pipeline.com>)


On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:28:39 -0600, Robrey <robrey@mailbag.com> wrote: >"David B." wrote: >> >> Basics, Part II = B+ >> >I decided to watch the Season premiere to see if the show had improved >since "THRESHOLD". All the eps I saw in reruns were either after this, >or in tapes I had sent to me at sea that I originally told the person >taping them not to bother with anymore. > > Overall, I liked Tom's part of the story, but the rest left me pretty >cold. > >B- > >> Flashback = C >> > C-, caught in reruns, "Basics" wasn't enough of a reason to return >watching the show. > >> The Chute = A- >> > Haven't seen it, but it sounds outstanding from Jim Wright's review! > >> The Swarm = B- >> > Never saw it. > >> False Profits = C+ >> > Never saw it. > >> Remember = C >> > Unbeknownst to me at the time, the person I had taping them resumed >doing so less intermittently at this point. B'Elanna looked mighty fine >in that nightie, <EG> but the story was predictable propaganda. >Propaganda I *agree* with, but that doesn't make for a very good story. I thought what lifted it above mere propaganda was that B'Elanna's character joined in the killing of her lover. And the real woman, now much older, was on the ship, and still feeling the guilt. She was very much a nuanced character. Also, I liked the interaction between Janeway and B'Elanna, and the fact that Janeway wouldn't intervene but still created an opportunity for B'Elanna to do something on her own. >> Sacred Ground = D >> > F-. It's a good thing I caught this in reruns, had I seen it at the >time I may have never watched the show again. I've ranted about this >enough before, but in short the extraordinarily poor execution destroyed >a passable theme. It's one of my favorites. So there! >> Future's End, Part I and II = B+ >> >B. It was kind of silly, but it worked for me. > >> Warlord = B+ >> > Never saw it. :( The person taping it missed it. I would have *loved* >to have seen Kes as a Richard III-type in a tight catsuit... <leer> She was excellent. >> The Q and the Grey = B- >> > >C. Silly story, great lines and sets. > >> Macrocosm = B >> > Never saw. > >> Fair Trade = B- >> > B. Another good Neelix story. > >> Alter Ego = C >> > Never saw. > >> Coda = B- >> > Never saw. > >> Blood Fever = D >> > D. A fairly decent concept ruined by the revelation that Vulcans rape >if they have to. Probably a good sci-fi angle, I just didn't *need* to >know that... :-| I agree, except that I don't even think the concept was decent. However, if the writers had to drag somebody through pon farr, I'm glad it wasn't Tuvok. >> Unity = B >> > Never saw. > >> Darkling = C >> > D-. This just didn't work on any level for me. It wasn't Picardo's >best outing either. He was...unconvincing. > >> Rise = D >> > B. I liked this, particularly the opportunity Neelix finally got to >his own back from Tuvok. He may have come off as a spoiled child in >some regards, but it...just *worked* for me. Russ proved he was quite >capable as the action hero here too. > >> Favorite Son = C >> > Absurd. D > >> Before and After = A+ >> > A+!!! I saw this live and I loved it so much it rekindled my interest >in the show. I went and dug out the tapes that had been sent to me that >I never watched, and started rewatching the show regularly again. The >night this aired I was up all night watching all the tapes I had of the >show and have been a regular viewer since. Up until this point I had >seen only "BASICS II" since the original airing of "THRESHOLD". But what was so great about it? >> Real Life = B- >> >C+, not a great story, but saved by B'Elanna's disgust at the >transparent satire of the old "DONNA REED SHOW". Yeah, that was good, but not enough to make up for the rest. >I also loved the bit >about the punk kid wanting to be a Klingon. Perfect characterization of >teenage punks! <G> > >> Distant Origin = B+ >> > B. Very interesting show, good role for Chakotay, perhaps one of the >only eps I really liked him where he wasn't the action hero. This is another one that just left me flat. What was so interesting about it? The science was dumb. I'm the last person to complain about dumb science, but when there isn't anything else in the episode, it's hard not to notice. Or were we supposed to be awed by the idea that an advanced culture would suppress the truth in order to sustain its social structure? We who possibly wiped out the Neanderthals? We who sustain certain core belief systems which have foundations only in myth? We who write history from the viewpoint of the winners? We who all-but-deify dead men to create cultural icons? We who erase their honorable opponents from the historical record? >> Displaced = B >> > B+. A good action role hero with Chakotay, and the best Paris-Torres >characterization of the show. They were funny, feisty, and in the end, >tender. I loved it! That's the way they should act together! > >> Worst Case Scenario = B+ >> > A-. Another great ep, the only reason it loses points is because it >was just another 'holodeck goes wild!' ep. The dialogue and conflict >between Paris and Tuvok was superb! > >> Scorpion = A >> > A. Outstanding! It worked perfectly, particularly the confrontation >between Chakotay and Janeway in the ready room. Everyone was hyped up a >bit for this one, it seemed. > >> Overall Grade: B >> > The last several eps marked a dramatic improvement in the show from >previous years. Mind you I didn't see many live since "THRESHOLD", but >overall I think some new life was breathed into the series. I don't >recall a point before in the series where they had as many good eps back >to back as they had from "BEFORE AND AFTER" to "SCORPION". "REAL LIFE" >was the only mediocre one, and at least that was funny in some ways. > > B. > > Cordially, > Robrey -- Amarna

1999-12-22 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Amarna <amarna@pipeline.com>)


On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:56:10 +0000, Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com> wrote: >Robrey wrote: >> >> "David B." wrote: > > >> > Warlord = B+ >> > >> Never saw it. :( The person taping it missed it. I would have *loved* >> to have seen Kes as a Richard III-type in a tight catsuit... <leer> > >She's *fantastic* in that one! > ><snip> >> > Alter Ego = C >> > >> Never saw. > >you didn't miss a thing. Harry and Tuvok *both* attracted to the >equivalent of a blow-up doll :-((((((( That is unfair. They *thought* it was a holodeck character, but it was not. It was a real person. Both Harry and Tuvok were attracted *because* it was a real person, even though they didn't know it at the time. >Be glad Tommy was spared. He was the original protagonist (instead of >Tuvok) for that script - and he would've worked better for several >reasons, but of course TPTB didn't want *him* to look stupid - with >Tuvok or Harry it doesn't really matter apparently :-(((((( > >> > Coda = B- >> > >> Never saw. > >Thank God on your knees for missing that! It had some great scenes. Only problem was that it only happened in Janeway's mind. But still, it was entertaining. > >> > Blood Fever = D >> > >> D. A fairly decent concept ruined by the revelation that Vulcans rape >> if they have to. Probably a good sci-fi angle, I just didn't *need* to >> know that... :-| > >and an insult to Tim Russ anyway. Oh give it a rest, Julianna! You should be glad that Vorik was made to look stupid instead of Tuvok. They did him a favor. And the less said about the moronic Vulcan pon farr idea the better. >If they couldn't come up with a pon >farr story for Tuvok, they should've left this alone. To show us that >they don't need him was not really what anybody was hoping for. Like I said, they did him a favor by not making him look like an idiot. > >> > Unity = B >> > >> Never saw. >> >> > Darkling = C >> > >> D-. This just didn't work on any level for me. It wasn't Picardo's >> best outing either. He was...unconvincing. > >you're already the second person who said that... does that mean there >are those who think Bob has some limits to his range?????? > >> > Rise = D >> > >> B. I liked this, particularly the opportunity Neelix finally got to >> his own back from Tuvok. > >He almost got Tuvok killed and never really apologized... Tuvok was the one that needed to apologize. >> He may have come off as a spoiled child in >> some regards, but it...just *worked* for me. > >both were off and *way* exaggerating, Neelix was too ebullient, Tuvok >too stiff. > >> Russ proved he was quite >> capable as the action hero here too. > >(sigh!) And what does that help him???? > ><snip> >> > Distant Origin = B+ >> > >> B. Very interesting show, good role for Chakotay, perhaps one of the >> only eps I really liked him where he wasn't the action hero. > >that's because he wasn't the focus of the ep - it was the Voth >scientist. And *he* was great! :-) > ><snip> >> The last several eps marked a dramatic improvement in the show from >> previous years. Mind you I didn't see many live since "THRESHOLD", but >> overall I think some new life was breathed into the series. I don't >> recall a point before in the series where they had as many good eps back >> to back as they had from "BEFORE AND AFTER" to "SCORPION". "REAL LIFE" >> was the only mediocre one, and at least that was funny in some ways. > >the end of season 1, from "Heroes and Demons" through "Learning >Curve"... ("Cathexis" being the only weaker one) > >... and there never was another season with so many crap eps so closely >together ("Alter Ego" through "Favorite Son": one more embarrassing than >the other...) > >Julianna >-------- > >Tuvok: >The main reason to watch Voyager! -- Amarna

1999-12-22 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (arlie88@aol.comNoSpam)


>>> > > Coda = B- > > > > > Never saw. > > Thank God on your knees for missing that! That bad, huh? << I didn't think so. (Though I understand why Julianna doesn't like it. Janeway and Chuckles gang up on poor Tuvok again, making fun of his Vulcan poetry reading at Talent Night.) I liked Janeway/Mulgrew in this one. And I liked her father. Nice scene with Torres eulogizing Janeway and Paris comforting Harry. Of course, none of it really happened. On the bad side: Beltran was way over the top in the death scene. And the alien was kind of lame. -- Arlie

1999-12-29 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Amarna <amarna@pipeline.com>)


On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:13:50 +0000, Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com> wrote: >Amarna wrote: >> >> On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:14:01 +0000, Julianna Feigl >> <glacierqueen@hotmail.com> wrote: >> > > >> >> >Which they didn't know. They thought she was a hologram. And they >> >> >*still* were attracted to her :-((( >> >> >> >> No... They were attracted to the genuine personality that was being >> >> projected through the hologram. >> > >> >but they thought the *hologram* had that personality, they didn't think >> >she was a real person. >> >> But they were wrong, and that's what matters, because it explains >> *why* they were wrong. >> > > >???? THey fell for something they thought was a computer subroutine. And >that's supposed to be a good thing???? I'll just ask you to reread all the responses I've already made to this. No point to going in circles. > > ><snip> >> >> As for Tuvok, his >> >> interest seemed to be primarily intellectual until the last part of >> >> the episode, when he knew the hologram represented a real person. I >> >> see nothing wrong with enjoying the intellectual stimulation that a >> >> well-written subroutine might provide. >> > >> >he had more of a social life with her than with *anybody* else aboard! >> >If that's not unhealthy, I don't know what is! The only person he *can* >> >interact with is a computer subroutine! He doesn't have real life >> >friends. That's what the luau scene showed us. >> >> Your point? >> > >He was made to look like the complete doofus. He can't interact with >real people. If he wants or needs company he goes to a computer >subroutine. :-(((( > He didn't look like a doofus to me. With all respect, maybe your interpretation has more to do with your own feelings than with Tuvok's. >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Coda = B- > > >> >> >it was a very long commercial for Jeri Taylor's terrible book "Mosaic" >> >> >:-(((( >> >> >> >> I liked the book. And I really don't see what it had to do with >> >> "Coda." >> > >> >the entire backstory about her father and his death and how that had >> >affected her. >> >> She loved her Dad. That's all you had to know for "Coda." You >> certainly didn't need to read "Mosaic" to find that out. >> > >no, the entire story how he died and how she reacted to it was hinted at >and you needed to know it in order to understand and appreciate the ep. I must have missed all those hints. As a matter of fact, I would like to have seen something in "Coda" or some other episode about how Janeway had seen both her father and her lover die because she couldn't choose which one to save. It wasn't there. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Blood Fever = D > ><snip> >> >> >by castrating him? By shoving him aside? By denying him a story that >> >> >would have been *vital* for some character development (his >> >> >marriage!)??? >> >> >> >> Where, oh where! do you get this stuff? "Castrating him"? >> >> Pul-eeeeese. As I've said many times before, I'm glad Tuvok has been >> >> spared the pon farr idiocy. >> > >> >a Vulcan with no sexuality, no masculinity - all that because he's *two* >> >years overdue for pon farr. >> >> Only by your reckoning. For all we know, he has probably already >> meditated through it, a technique he mentioned to Vorik. > >a technique neither Spock, Spock is half-human and not trained the way Tuvok has been. Moreover, I personally consider Spock's pon farr episode to be the nadir for Spock's character. It was more ridiculous than "Spock's Brain." What a silly idea. The writers would do well to shut up about it forever. >nor Vomit, This is gratuitous, petty, and mean-sprited. >nor Tuvok himself ("Flashback") >ever mastered. And if he could so easily meditate through - why would >the Doc have daydreams about saving him from pon farr?? Perhaps because Tuvok's weakness would contribute to the Doc's sense of strength and competence. That's why most people have daydreams. It doesn't mean that the people they fantasize about saving actually need saving. >Or have you >forgotten "TInker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy"? If there were no problem, >because Tuvok has proven that he can meditate through, there would be no >need for such a daydream. Well, the Doc also fantasized about all the women being attracted to him. Does that mean they really are? He fantasized about taking over the ship, too. Does that mean he should? >> As for >> sexuality and masculinity, Tuvok lacks neither. > >*Tim Russ* lacks neither. Tuvok does. > >> It's too bad you >> can't appreciate him. >> >> Seriously, Julianna, you need to ask yourself some questions about >> your fixation on Tuvok's pon farr. >> > >maybe *you* should examine why you are so dead-set against treating him >fairly. There you go again. Just because I disagree with you I get lumped in with all the racists and Vorik-lovers. It's irrational. >> >> >but it exists. It's canon. You can't ignore it just because it doesn't >> >> >suits you. >> >> >> >> Uh, sure I can. There's lots of stuff in Trek that I ignore. We >> >> haven't seen much of pon farr since TOS, and as far as I'm concerned >> >> that's a good thing. >> >> >> > >> >it might've been a good thing to completely ignore pon farr. But since >> >it's been brought up again it's insulting that they pretend it happens >> >for every Vulcan *but* Tuvok. >> >> They pretended no such thing. > >yes, they do. Every other Vulcan gets it, for everybody else it's a >life-and-death problem, just Tuvok can stay away from his wife for >decades without getting it, and once he's back home his cycle clicks in >again. Talk about stupid! :-((((( What's stupid is the idea of pon farr in the first place. The less said about it the better. >> >> >And they basically just reminded us of it to show us that >> >> >Tuvok is *NOT GOOD ENOUGH* to deserve an episode about it. >> >> >> >> There you go again, attributing motives to other people based on your >> >> own sentiments. >> > >> >rewatch the eps from Blood Fever till now and tell me you did *not* >> >notice a constant drop in screentime for Tuvok. After they got away with >> >writing him out of pon farr, they shoved him more and more into the >> >background. His screentime is *still* dropping. Things were bad enough >> >last year, and there's no improvement in sight! >> > >> >> The only part of the above that accurate is that more Tuvok would be >> good. >> > >But will never happen again. *Can'T* happen anymore. *You* are certainly not helping it to happen. By being so paranoid and so irrational you are marginalizing the whole issue to where it need not be taken seriously. > >> >> >> >If they couldn't come up with a pon >> >> >> >farr story for Tuvok, they should've left this alone. To show us that >> >> >> >they don't need him was not really what anybody was hoping for. >> >> >> >> >> >> Like I said, they did him a favor by not making him look like an >> >> >> idiot. >> >> > >> >> >looking like an impotent or a castrato is of course *much* better >> >> >(sarcastic mode off) >> >> >> >> He doesn't look like either to me. >> >> >> > >> >He's 2 years overdue for pon farr. Something *must* be wrong with him >> >:-( >> >> He isn't overdue. As I said, he might have meditated through it. > >see above. that's *impossible*. Nothing you said demonstrates that. I prefer to believe Tuvok rather than you. He should know. >> We >> already know it is an extremely private matter. Spock must have been >> some sort of freak to make the spectacle that he did. > >Spock may have been many things, but a freak he was not. > >> He was worse >> than even Vorik. > >No, he wasn't. He did not run around trying to assault and rape >unwilling women. He asked to be locked away to spare himself and others >the embarrassment of seeing him in this condition. Pathetic. Then he gets into a fight to the death with the captain. A pure lunatic. A people with such utterly inane customs would not likely survive to achieve space travel. >> I will be ever grateful to the writers and producers >> of Voyager for not putting Tuvok through that. > > >well, I suppose you like it when actors get labelled "not good enough". Who has labelled whom "not good enough"? Not I, for sure. >> >> ><snip> >> >> >> >> > Rise = D > > >> >> >for allowing Neelix to maneuver him into the *completely* unneccessary >> >> >excursion to the roof of the carriage? This was an unjustified request >> >> >by Neelix and Tuvok *still* humored him - which almost cost him his >> >> >life. >> >> > >> >> >> >> Neelix was right >> > >> >no, he wasn't. They could've returned to Voyager first and investigated >> >the roof later (that way the traitor would not have had a chance to push >> >Tuvok from the roof). There was absolutely *no* need to do it at once, >> >yet Neelix insisted. >> >> Sigh... I guess that means it's a matter of opinion. >> > >obviously > >> >> and Tuvok was intelligent enough to see it. Kudos to >> >> both of them. >> > >> >Tuvok once again was unable to enforce authority. Just like he's always >> >unable to keep Tommy at bay :-( >> >> Neither sentence is true. > >Then why does he always give in and let everybody treat him as if he >were a piece of dirt? He doesn't. -- Amarna

1999-12-29 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com>)


Amarna wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:16:47 +0000, Julianna Feigl > <glacierqueen@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >Amarna wrote: > >> >> However, if the writers had to drag somebody through pon farr, I'm > >> >> glad it wasn't Tuvok. > >> >> > >> > Do you have your snow shovel handy? <G> > >> > >> Yep, and my parka. > > > >how utterly funny! :-( That goes to both of you :-((((((( > >Apparently adding insult to injury is considered fun nowadays:-((((( > > Oh come on, Julianna. Surely you realize no insult was intended. > Lighten up! An excellent actor is shoved aside to make room for the producer's son, thus causing grave damage to his character. I am concerned about it and find it offensive - and you have fun at my expenses? Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager!

1999-12-29 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com>)


Amarna wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:13:50 +0000, Julianna Feigl > <glacierqueen@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >???? THey fell for something they thought was a computer subroutine. And > >that's supposed to be a good thing???? > > I'll just ask you to reread all the responses I've already made to > this. No point to going in circles. I still don't see your point. They thought she was a program - and still fell for her. :-( > ><snip> > >He was made to look like the complete doofus. He can't interact with > >real people. If he wants or needs company he goes to a computer > >subroutine. :-(((( > > > He didn't look like a doofus to me. With all respect, maybe your > interpretation has more to do with your own feelings than with > Tuvok's. > it's Marayna's interpretation as well. Why else do you think she asked him: "Will you always be alone?" And rewatch the luau-scene: Tuvok is completely unable to connect with anybody there - except the computer subroutine. The fact that Janeway shows him openly that she's with Chuckles and therefore doesn't need him *at all* doesn't help either.. > >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > Coda = B- > >no, the entire story how he died and how she reacted to it was hinted at > >and you needed to know it in order to understand and appreciate the ep. > > I must have missed all those hints. As a matter of fact, I would like > to have seen something in "Coda" or some other episode about how > Janeway had seen both her father and her lover die because she > couldn't choose which one to save. It wasn't there. > but there was dialog about Daddy's death. You needed to fill in these gaps by reading the book. > >> >> >> >> > Blood Fever = D > > > ><snip> > >> Only by your reckoning. For all we know, he has probably already > >> meditated through it, a technique he mentioned to Vorik. > > > >a technique neither Spock, > > Spock is half-human and not trained the way Tuvok has been. says who? > Moreover, > I personally consider Spock's pon farr episode to be the nadir for > Spock's character. It was more ridiculous than "Spock's Brain." What > a silly idea. The writers would do well to shut up about it forever. Jeez, sexuality is worse than lobotomy? > >nor Vomit, > > This is gratuitous, petty, and mean-sprited. > to introduce him at Tuvok's expenses was gratuitous, petty and mean-spirited, I agree > >nor Tuvok himself ("Flashback") > >ever mastered. And if he could so easily meditate through - why would > >the Doc have daydreams about saving him from pon farr?? > > Perhaps because Tuvok's weakness would contribute to the Doc's sense > of strength and competence. That's why most people have daydreams. > It doesn't mean that the people they fantasize about saving actually > need saving. > he could have dreamed about curing all sorts of terrible diseases, but he dreamed about the one problem he fears can strike any day now... > >Or have you > >forgotten "TInker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy"? If there were no problem, > >because Tuvok has proven that he can meditate through, there would be no > >need for such a daydream. > > Well, the Doc also fantasized about all the women being attracted to > him. Does that mean they really are? It means he'd *want* them to be - just like he'd *want* to be able to save Tuvok from pon farr... > He fantasized about taking over > the ship, too. Does that mean he should? and he'd *want* to take command of the ship and save them all from the Borg > >> As for > >> sexuality and masculinity, Tuvok lacks neither. > > > >*Tim Russ* lacks neither. Tuvok does. > > > >> It's too bad you > >> can't appreciate him. > >> > >> Seriously, Julianna, you need to ask yourself some questions about > >> your fixation on Tuvok's pon farr. > >> > > > >maybe *you* should examine why you are so dead-set against treating him > >fairly. > > There you go again. Just because I disagree with you I get lumped in > with all the racists and Vorik-lovers. It's irrational. > That's not what I said, but if you choose to read that into it - that's your decision. <snip> > >yes, they do. Every other Vulcan gets it, for everybody else it's a > >life-and-death problem, just Tuvok can stay away from his wife for > >decades without getting it, and once he's back home his cycle clicks in > >again. Talk about stupid! :-((((( > > What's stupid is the idea of pon farr in the first place. The less > said about it the better. > Why are you so opposed to the fact that people have a sex-life???? <snip> > >> The only part of the above that accurate is that more Tuvok would be > >> good. > >> > > > >But will never happen again. *Can'T* happen anymore. > > *You* are certainly not helping it to happen. By being so paranoid > and so irrational you are marginalizing the whole issue to where it > need not be taken seriously. > *you*, of course are helping it a lot by not doing anything... <snip> > >> >He's 2 years overdue for pon farr. Something *must* be wrong with him > >> >:-( > >> > >> He isn't overdue. As I said, he might have meditated through it. > > > >see above. that's *impossible*. > > Nothing you said demonstrates that. I prefer to believe Tuvok rather > than you. He should know. then why couldn't he meditate through it 72 years ago after *six* years of extensive training with the Kohlinar (sp)? Why did he have to leave and get married? <snip> > >> He was worse > >> than even Vorik. > > > >No, he wasn't. He did not run around trying to assault and rape > >unwilling women. He asked to be locked away to spare himself and others > >the embarrassment of seeing him in this condition. > > Pathetic. dignified > Then he gets into a fight to the death with the captain. A > pure lunatic. because his sex drive had taken over and he was in a killing frenzy > A people with such utterly inane customs would not > likely survive to achieve space travel. that's not *customs* , that's their biology. They can't change it. Which is why they choose mates for their sons and get the kids betrothed at the age of 7 - so that the boy might have a mate when his time comes. > >> I will be ever grateful to the writers and producers > >> of Voyager for not putting Tuvok through that. > > > > > >well, I suppose you like it when actors get labelled "not good enough". > > Who has labelled whom "not good enough"? Not I, for sure. TPTB shoved Russ into the background, because they don't need him. And don't want him. He's still in that background, he's never got a chance to get out of it again. Not in *three* years. > >> >> ><snip> > >> >> >> >> > Rise = D > >> >Tuvok once again was unable to enforce authority. Just like he's always > >> >unable to keep Tommy at bay :-( > >> > >> Neither sentence is true. > > > >Then why does he always give in and let everybody treat him as if he > >were a piece of dirt? > > He doesn't. you must be watching a completely different series... Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager!

1999-12-29 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com>)


Robrey wrote: > > Amarna wrote: > > > Oh, having a non-Vulcan go through Pon Farr was at least inventive. > > > > Okay. Half a point for that. The show wasn't horrible. It just > > wasn't anything special. > > > > >> However, if the writers had to drag somebody through pon farr, I'm > > >> glad it wasn't Tuvok. > > >> > > > Do you have your snow shovel handy? <G> > > > > Yep, and my parka. > > > > It's still freezing in here, isn't it! <G> You're mean! :-((((((( (crawling away into dark corner to lick wounds) Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager!

1999-12-29 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Robrey <robrey@mailbag.com>)


Amarna wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:15:47 -0600, Robrey <robrey@mailbag.com> wrote: > > Hi Rob, > Hello, Amarna! > sorry I took so long to answer this. > I know the feeling, lately I only have time to download the NG every few days...then I have to read them all! > >Amarna wrote: [snip] > >> >> Sacred Ground = D > >> >> > >> > F-. It's a good thing I caught this in reruns, had I seen it at the > >> >time I may have never watched the show again. I've ranted about this > >> >enough before, but in short the extraordinarily poor execution destroyed > >> >a passable theme. > >> > >> It's one of my favorites. So there! > >> > > And Mulgrew's too. Hmmm...I wonder if you're both into Scientology? > > Gag! I think she's very religious. That's not why I liked it though. > I saw it more as a story about hubris. > Hmmm...how? Man's hubris when naturally dismissing the spiritual? > ><G> > >[snip] > >> >> Blood Fever = D > >> >> > >> > D. A fairly decent concept ruined by the revelation that Vulcans rape > >> >if they have to. Probably a good sci-fi angle, I just didn't *need* to > >> >know that... :-| > >> > >> I agree, except that I don't even think the concept was decent. > > > > Oh, having a non-Vulcan go through Pon Farr was at least inventive. > > Okay. Half a point for that. The show wasn't horrible. It just > wasn't anything special. > > >> However, if the writers had to drag somebody through pon farr, I'm > >> glad it wasn't Tuvok. > >> > > Do you have your snow shovel handy? <G> > > Yep, and my parka. > > It's still freezing in here, isn't it! <G> [snip] > >> > > >> >> Distant Origin = B+ > >> >> > >> > B. Very interesting show, good role for Chakotay, perhaps one of the > >> >only eps I really liked him where he wasn't the action hero. > >> > >> This is another one that just left me flat. What was so interesting > >> about it? The science was dumb. I'm the last person to complain > >> about dumb science, but when there isn't anything else in the episode, > >> it's hard not to notice. > > > > I didn't pay any attention to the science. <G> I only do when they say > >something completely false, like an event horizon is a force field, or > >we see them on an asteroid with a normal atmosphere. This one I glossed > >over, perhaps because I'd read "WEST OF EDEN" an excellent book by Harry > >Harrison. (Author of "THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT")It took place in a period > >when there were intelligent dinosaurs and primitive humans, and I > >suppose I thought of it as something of a tribute. > > What I couldn't get past was that there were dinosaurs intelligent > enough to leave the planet en masse but not intelligent enough to > survive on it. That must be a very magical point of between-ness. > LOL! I suppose so...however, it was considered a spectacular feat, so perhaps it was something especially heroic. For instance, I recall reading where scientists have discovered a sub-atomic particle that moves instantaneously in gravometric experiments. It is theorized that if we could discover how it does that, we could do the same. So perhaps they discovered that, long before they had additional science to change weather patterns. > > Or were we supposed to be awed by the idea > >> that an advanced culture would suppress the truth in order to sustain > >> its social structure? We who possibly wiped out the Neanderthals? We > >> who sustain certain core belief systems which have foundations only in > >> myth? We who write history from the viewpoint of the winners? We who > >> all-but-deify dead men to create cultural icons? We who erase their > >> honorable opponents from the historical record? > >> > > Precisely! Did you think they were talking about just the dinosaurs? > ><G> It was Gallelio and the Church, Dreyfuss and the Third Republic, > >Frederick the Great and Kant. > > Gallileo had the good sense to recant. Dreyfuss was something > different. > I meant it in the sense that it appeared our industrious young lizard was headed towards Devil's Island for the convenience of a government that knew the truth..... > > And even better, the leader was a fully > >realized character, you could sympathize with her point of view. > > Yes, she was good. > > >Do you > >know the line from the X-Files villain, the Cigarette Smoking Man? "If > >people were to know the things that I know, it would all fall apart." > >What if she's right, that the truth would be the end of their society as > >they knew it? > > Don't watch X-files. > Try it sometime, I expect you'd like it. Scully, in particular. > > Imagine for a moment that the conspiracy theorists are correct, and JFK > >was killed by Castro or the mob or the KGB. Put yourself in the shoes > >of the Warren Commission. If the American people found out that their > >president had been killed by the KGB for instance, it might mean war. > >Perhaps millions killed, and who knows what the society would look like > >at the end of it? So to preserve that society they sell a lie, just > >like she did. Perhaps they're wrong, that indeed the truth is always > >the best option, but when it's an entire society, perhaps a civilization > >at stake...well that ups the ante. > > I think just about everyone who lived through that period has thought > along those lines. But to me, your examples are more reminescent of > the situation in "Living Witness" than "Distant Origen." There, we > had the Doc saying Who cares about history! What matters is today! > That's an interesting comparison. I hadn't thought of it in that way. However, I thought "LIVING WITNESS" was about broader issues, and the danger of redefining history to suit politically trendy tastes.... > > Besides, all societies are based in part by potential untruths. Ours > >is based more or less on "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that > >all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with > >certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the > >pursuit of happiness" In other words that the individual holds > >sovereignty and has certain natural rights, unlike the European model > >where the government holds the highest sovereignty and grants it's > >citizens rights. But it's only 'true' as long as people believe it. If > >they don't, it can be replaced by another 'truth'. > > > > Perhaps that heretofore all human history is the history of the > >struggle between the classes. > > partly true > Not really, mostly imaginary. The axis on which history turns is seldom over struggle between classes. > > The dubious proposition that once the > >government has assured everyone is equally poor and miserable, > >government will melt away and utopia will emerge. > > No one ever proposed quite that, but regardless, government cannot and > should not melt away. It is the only means for people to act in > concert on a large scale. Hardly. In fact, Toqueville wrote on the remarkable ability Americans had of accomplishing things *without* government approval, assistance or direction in "DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA". Dependence upon government is the Ancient Eastern and European sole way of dealing with problems. In America, you can find a private institution that is more successful dealing any particular social necessity than it's government counterpart. Private schools do a superior job educating at roughly half the cost (and less of the trendy PC BS) of public schools. Especially amongst the learning disabled or difficult to educate, that are currently misappropriated to the advantage of no one but the bureaucracy. In any private endeavor you can find superior accomplishments than government, save for a few like space exploration and the military. Government should be restricted to those fields where society should not or cannot fulfill a specific need, the judicial system being another that must be necessarily government. > We need to do that in order to survive. > I think government bureaucracies kill. Recently the Veterans Administration revealed the results of it's medical 'mistakes' fact-finding. In less than two years, VA hospitals committed in excess of three thousand 'mistakes' killing more than seven hundred patients. The VA system is America's version of Public Health Care, and is ironically superior to the European and Canadian models some wish to impose upon us. The US private health Care system is the finest in the world, to destroy that in order to impose upon us a system like the VA would kill countless numbers of people. I can go to a VA hospital for free, and where I live it's pretty good, but I was *delighted* with the care I received at my local HMO. Public health care is like imposing care worse than the often despised HMO, on...everybody.... > >Or that a monarch > >holds a 'divine right' to authority over their subjects and the state. > > That worked pretty well for a long time, when it wasn't practical to > educate the people. > > >Or nothing uis true and anything is possible. Maybe instead it will be > >Men Suck: that the story of human history is men seeking control over > >woman's reproduction ability. <G> > > partly true... > Well then it's equally true that all of human history is women seeking to entrap me to help raise their children and do all the nasty, dangerous work to ensure they survive and succeed... <G> > ...which brings me to the point. Truth isn't the binary absolute that > we want to make it. In fact, if one is extremely rigorous, it is hard > even to make a completely true statement about anything of substance. > Granted, but you'd rather believe the ones you would prefer to believe, would you not? [snip] > > Sometime down the line, the Voth are going to find out the > >truth, and if she was right it will cost them their society. I had a > >sneaking admiration for her though, and that's why I enjoyed the story. > >She understood just what was at stake, and did what she thought best for > >her people. Perhaps she was right, and the myth was more important than > >the 'truth'. > > The best thing about "Distant Origin" was the actress who played the > Voth leader. She gave the whole thing credibility. > I agree. She was the best part of the story. Cordially, Robrey

2000-01-07 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (glacierqueen@hotmail.com)


In article <38701CDF.C852F4C7@gmx.de>, Starfish <starfish-sc@gmx.de> wrote: > Julianna Feigl schrieb: > > > > Amarna wrote: > <snip> > > > > it's Marayna's interpretation as well. Why else do you think she asked > > him: "Will you always be alone?" And rewatch the luau-scene: Tuvok is > > completely unable to connect with anybody there - except the computer > > Not unable, unwilling. Oh, he'd have been willing enough to spend some time with Janeway - after all, her "order" is the one and only reason why he is there. But she's having fun at seeing him behave like a fish out of water, and she's clinging to Chuckles in a way that leaves no doubt that Tuvok is not needed.... in fact, one of the reasons why he goes over to Marayna's table is to prove to Janeway that he doesn't need her - since she obviously has no need for him. It's wounded pride what makes him look around for *somebody*, *anybody* he could talk to... Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

2000-01-11 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Starfish <starfish-sc@gmx.de>)


glacierqueen@hotmail.com schrieb: > > In article <38701CDF.C852F4C7@gmx.de>, > Starfish <starfish-sc@gmx.de> wrote: > > Julianna Feigl schrieb: > > > > > > Amarna wrote: > > <snip> > > > > > > it's Marayna's interpretation as well. Why else do you think she asked > > > him: "Will you always be alone?" And rewatch the luau-scene: Tuvok is > > > completely unable to connect with anybody there - except the computer > > > > Not unable, unwilling. > > Oh, he'd have been willing enough to spend some time with Janeway - > after all, her "order" is the one and only reason why he is there. But > she's having fun at seeing him behave like a fish out of water, and > she's clinging to Chuckles in a way that leaves no doubt that Tuvok is > not needed.... in fact, one of the reasons why he goes over to Marayna's > table is to prove to Janeway that he doesn't need her - since she > obviously has no need for him. It's wounded pride what makes him look > around for *somebody*, *anybody* he could talk to... He is unwilling to talk to anybody else at the party. Starfish

2000-01-16 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Starfish <starfish-sc@gmx.de>)


Julianna Feigl schrieb: > > Starfish wrote: > > > > glacierqueen@hotmail.com schrieb: > > > > > > In article <38701CDF.C852F4C7@gmx.de>, > > > Starfish <starfish-sc@gmx.de> wrote: > > > > Julianna Feigl schrieb: > > > > > > > > > > Amarna wrote: > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > it's Marayna's interpretation as well. Why else do you think she asked > > > > > him: "Will you always be alone?" And rewatch the luau-scene: Tuvok is > > > > > completely unable to connect with anybody there - except the computer > > > > > > > > Not unable, unwilling. > > > > > > Oh, he'd have been willing enough to spend some time with Janeway - > > > after all, her "order" is the one and only reason why he is there. But > > > she's having fun at seeing him behave like a fish out of water, and > > > she's clinging to Chuckles in a way that leaves no doubt that Tuvok is > > > not needed.... in fact, one of the reasons why he goes over to Marayna's > > > table is to prove to Janeway that he doesn't need her - since she > > > obviously has no need for him. It's wounded pride what makes him look > > > around for *somebody*, *anybody* he could talk to... > > > > He is unwilling to talk to anybody else at the party. > > What makes you think so? He came because Janeway made it sound like she Because he doesn't!?! > wanted him there - because he wanted to please her. And she ignored him. And so he sulked and wouldn't speak to any of the crew until Marayna caught his eye. > So he needed some excuse to show her he doesn't need her. That's how he > even noticed Marayna. By looking around for an excuse. There are roughly 150 people on Voyager *beside* Janeway... Starfish

2000-01-21 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Starfish <starfish-sc@gmx.de>)


Julianna Feigl schrieb: > Starfish wrote: > > Julianna Feigl schrieb: > > > > > > > He is unwilling to talk to anybody else at the party. > > > > > > What makes you think so? He came because Janeway made it sound like she > > > > Because he doesn't!?! > > because he doesn't think he'd be welcome Again, were is your proof for that? I didn't see anybody at that party roll their eyes or turn away in disgust upon seeing Tuvok. > > > wanted him there - because he wanted to please her. And she ignored him. > > > > And so he sulked and wouldn't speak to any of the crew until > > Marayna caught his eye. > > He ran into Janeway, who obviously had no need for him, since she was > clinging to Chuckles. Having to see this hurt him and he tried to hurt > back by showing her that he doesn't really need her at all. So he looked Hurt is illogical. Methinks you are humanizing Tuvok a wee bit too much. > around for somebody he could talk to (somebody that *would* talk back to > him if he started a conversation) and saw Marayna with her kalto > board... And what about the other people at the party? He could have talked to any of them. > > > So he needed some excuse to show her he doesn't need her. That's how he > > > even noticed Marayna. By looking around for an excuse. > > > > There are roughly 150 people on Voyager *beside* Janeway... > > but since not even Janeway wanted to talk to him (who back then was > still supposed to be his friend, though eps like this one gave me reason > to doubt that friendship), what would've been his chances of being able > to start a conversation with either of them? And again, where do you find proof that th people at the party hate Tuvok? USSF ***** Greets her loyal crew! :)

2000-01-25 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen@hotmail.com.spamisboring>)


Starfish wrote: > > Julianna Feigl schrieb: > > But did you see anybody eager to meet him and talk to him????? > > By that token, you could also turn this around and ask > whether Tuvok was eager to meet them and talk to them????? > Apparently not. He knew he was not welcome (and we actually get proof of it in "Coda" where even his best friends complain about his reading of Vulcan poetry...) > > <snip> > > He didn't have any attachment to them, nothing to talk about, and he > > obviously knows that he's not considered the star of a party by his > > crewmates. > > And whose fault is that? It is not the other attendees' > fault that Tuvok keeps to himself most of the time and > rarely shares anything about himself. It's their failure to encourage him and to make him feel welcome. They see he's different and so they avoid him and he feels isolated. <snip> > > > And again, where do you find proof that th people at the > > > party hate Tuvok? > > > > Maybe not outright hate him, but he was quite obviously uncomfortable > > with them. He did *not* want to be there in the first place, he felt > > like an outsider. Unlike Vomit.... only a white Vulcan is a good, > > sociable Vulcan, a success at a party... :-((((((((( > > (*That*'s what I learned from that scene) > > He is more successful, because he made an effort to be > sociable and to connect with the mainly human crew, because he was willing to forget his Vulcan standards and upbringing and cultural background and disguise as a clown, wearing a Hawaii shirt and pretend to be as emotional as the humans. He was prostituting himself in order to be accepted... > not > because he is white. Well, he *was* presented like the better, more likeable Vulcan, since TPTB were setting him up for *the* Vulcan ep... > To me, the only difference between Tuvok and the other > Vulcans is his shorter hair. Yeah, he's not wearing that stupid Vulcan haircut... Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager!

2000-02-01 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Starfish <starfish-sc@gmx.de>)


Julianna Feigl schrieb: > Starfish wrote: > > Julianna Feigl schrieb: > > > > But did you see anybody eager to meet him and talk to him????? > > > > By that token, you could also turn this around and ask > > whether Tuvok was eager to meet them and talk to them????? > > Apparently not. > > He knew he was not welcome (and we actually get proof of it in "Coda" > where even his best friends complain about his reading of Vulcan > poetry...) That is no proof, just because J and C complain, doesn't mean everybody did. > > > <snip> > > > > He didn't have any attachment to them, nothing to talk about, and he > > > obviously knows that he's not considered the star of a party by his > > > crewmates. > > > > And whose fault is that? It is not the other attendees' > > fault that Tuvok keeps to himself most of the time and > > rarely shares anything about himself. > > It's their failure to encourage him and to make him feel welcome. They > see he's different and so they avoid him and he feels isolated. Yeah, right... he should get his ass moving and stop expecting people to cater to his needs. If he feels isolated it's nobody's fault but his own. Plus, he is higher in rank, we have learned early in the show that the higher-ranked officers approach the lower ones, not the other way round. > <snip> > > > > And again, where do you find proof that th people at the > > > > party hate Tuvok? > > > > > > Maybe not outright hate him, but he was quite obviously uncomfortable > > > with them. He did *not* want to be there in the first place, he felt > > > like an outsider. Unlike Vomit.... only a white Vulcan is a good, > > > sociable Vulcan, a success at a party... :-((((((((( > > > (*That*'s what I learned from that scene) > > > > He is more successful, because he made an effort to be > > sociable and to connect with the mainly human crew, > > because he was willing to forget his Vulcan standards and upbringing and > cultural background and disguise as a clown, wearing a Hawaii shirt and > pretend to be as emotional as the humans. He was prostituting himself in > order to be accepted... Bull. That would mean everybody who is trying behave different from his or her original training/upbringing to fit in is prostituting themselves, i.e. Humans trying to fit in when they are on Vulcan, etc. When you choose to live/work in an environment where you constitute a minority, you should try to adapt to it to some extent, and make some concessions. > > not > > because he is white. > > Well, he *was* presented like the better, more likeable Vulcan, since > TPTB were setting him up for *the* Vulcan ep... That still doesn't mean he's better cause he's white. It means he is more involved in the crew's activitites, because he makes an effort to do so. > > To me, the only difference between Tuvok and the other > > Vulcans is his shorter hair. > > Yeah, he's not wearing that stupid Vulcan haircut... It's not stupid, it's just illogic that every Vulcan would wear the same haircut. OTOH, maybe they have a reason we don't know about... :o) Starfish

2000-02-03 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen.NO.spam@hotmail.com.spam.death>)


Starfish wrote: > > Julianna Feigl schrieb: > > He knew he was not welcome (and we actually get proof of it in "Coda" > > where even his best friends complain about his reading of Vulcan > > poetry...) > > That is no proof, just because J and C complain, doesn't > mean everybody did. Neelix complained as well... > > > > <snip> > > > And whose fault is that? It is not the other attendees' > > > fault that Tuvok keeps to himself most of the time and > > > rarely shares anything about himself. > > > > It's their failure to encourage him and to make him feel welcome. They > > see he's different and so they avoid him and he feels isolated. > > Yeah, right... he should get his ass moving and stop > expecting people to cater to his needs. If he feels isolated > it's nobody's fault but his own. Plus, he is higher in rank, > we have learned early in the show that the higher-ranked > officers approach the lower ones, not the other way round. That might actually make things even harder for him. He knows that because he's a superior officer people *would* talk to him if he started a conversation. But it would be not because they want to talk to him, but because they *have* to talk to the high-ranking officer. Since he's obviously already a bit insecure and uncomfortable in such a setting such considerations would make it even harder for him to get accepted. > > <snip> > > > > Maybe not outright hate him, but he was quite obviously uncomfortable > > > > with them. He did *not* want to be there in the first place, he felt > > > > like an outsider. Unlike Vomit.... only a white Vulcan is a good, > > > > sociable Vulcan, a success at a party... :-((((((((( > > > > (*That*'s what I learned from that scene) > > > > > > He is more successful, because he made an effort to be > > > sociable and to connect with the mainly human crew, > > > > because he was willing to forget his Vulcan standards and upbringing and > > cultural background and disguise as a clown, wearing a Hawaii shirt and > > pretend to be as emotional as the humans. He was prostituting himself in > > order to be accepted... > > Bull. That would mean everybody who is trying behave > different from his or her original training/upbringing to > fit in is prostituting themselves, i.e. Humans trying to fit > in when they are on Vulcan, etc. > When you choose to live/work in an environment where you > constitute a minority, you should try to adapt to it to some > extent, and make some concessions. I always thought the principle of Star Trek is that *differences* do not matter. That *despite* or even *because* of them people get along fine. Here I see that a Vulcan has to behave like a human in order to be accepted. That his differences are not respected and considered an enrichment, but that they make him somewhat inferior and that he has to "adapt" if he wants to be included in social events. > > > not > > > because he is white. > > > > Well, he *was* presented like the better, more likeable Vulcan, since > > TPTB were setting him up for *the* Vulcan ep... > > That still doesn't mean he's better cause he's white. It > means he is more involved in the crew's activitites, because > he makes an effort to do so. by denying his heritage .... > > > To me, the only difference between Tuvok and the other > > > Vulcans is his shorter hair. > > > > Yeah, he's not wearing that stupid Vulcan haircut... > > It's not stupid, it's just illogic that every Vulcan would > wear the same haircut. OTOH, maybe they have a reason we > don't know about... :o) and it still looks stupid :-) Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager!

2000-02-11 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Starfish <starfish-sc@gmx.de>)


Julianna Feigl schrieb: > Starfish wrote: > > Julianna Feigl schrieb: > > > > > That is no proof, just because J and C complain, doesn't > > > > mean everybody did. > > > > > > Neelix complained as well... > > > > Still not everybody... > > all his friends, though... Janway and Neelis *are* his closest > friends... We were talking about the rest of the crew, the people that were at the party... therefore: not everybody! > > > > > > > <snip> > > > Xcuse me?? A 100+ year-old Vulcan who has served in > > Starfleet before and came back of his own free will, went > > undercover on a Maquis ship (need I go on?) insecure??? I > > have a very hard time believing that. > > That doesn't change the fact that he's not really that comfortable with > all these humans and doesn't really know how to react to them. He *is* > insecure. *snicker* yeah, right! If that was the case, he would have never reentered into Starfleet or he would have chosen to serve on an all-Vulcan ship. > > > > > <snip> > > > > > Bull. That would mean everybody who is trying behave > > > > different from his or her original training/upbringing to > > > > fit in is prostituting themselves, i.e. Humans trying to fit > > > > in when they are on Vulcan, etc. > > > > When you choose to live/work in an environment where you > > > > constitute a minority, you should try to adapt to it to some > > > > extent, and make some concessions. > > > > > > I always thought the principle of Star Trek is that *differences* do not > > > matter. That *despite* or even *because* of them people get along fine. > > > Here I see that a Vulcan has to behave like a human in order to be > > > accepted. That his differences are not respected and considered an > > > enrichment, but that they make him somewhat inferior and that he has to > > > "adapt" if he wants to be included in social events. > > > > If the differences in his case include keeping to himself > > and letting no one near than he cannot complain or bemoan > > that people don't seek him out on their own. When I know > > that somebody is reserved and aloof, I will hesitate trying > > to initiate first contect for fear of getting on that > > person's nerves. > > That is a mistake. That person could just be shy. But if you don't > approach him/her and give them the benefit of the doubt you'll never > find out. And the shy person will not reach out to *you*. The person is too shy to reach out, I don't want to feel unwelcome or rejected: same difference. Nobody is more right or more wrong here, which is why you can't just lay the blame to one side. > <snip> > > > > > It > > > > means he is more involved in the crew's activitites, because > > > > he makes an effort to do so. > > > > > > by denying his heritage .... > > > > Nobody said or requested that, but if he wants (we don#t > > know that he does) to mingle more with the crew than he has > > to make an effort as well, not just the others. > > That's easier said than done. Ask Jup how easy it is for her to mingle > with people. Ask RH how well he gets on with the girls at his school... > Tuvok, too, is the outsider who's not really accepted. Making the first > step is not easy for him. Jup and RH are Humans so to speak (if you must draw in RL), Tuvok is a Vulcan! Being or not being an outsider is irrelevant for him, and it would be illogical to display such feelings as you claim he has. > > > > > > To me, the only difference between Tuvok and the other > > > > > > Vulcans is his shorter hair. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, he's not wearing that stupid Vulcan haircut... > > > > > > > > It's not stupid, it's just illogic that every Vulcan would > > > > wear the same haircut. OTOH, maybe they have a reason we > > > > don't know about... :o) > > > > > > and it still looks stupid :-) > > > > This is a highly illogical statement. I fail to see how an > > efficient haircut can look stupid :o) > > I don'T know - but look at Vomit and then tell me he does *not* look > stupid! :-) I wouldn't judge people, esp. Vulcans, by their haircut *eg* Starfish

2000-02-15 00:00:00 - Re: Grading season 3 - (Julianna Feigl <glacierqueen.NO.spam@hotmail.com.Tuvok.rules>)


Starfish wrote: > > Julianna Feigl schrieb: ... > > > > all his friends, though... Janway and Neelis *are* his closest > > friends... > > We were talking about the rest of the crew, the people that > were at the party... therefore: not everybody! if *theY* had been impressed with the Vulcan poetry reading, Neelix would have tried hard to keep this attraction for his next talent night, so, yes, we do know about their reaction... > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > Xcuse me?? A 100+ year-old Vulcan who has served in > > > Starfleet before and came back of his own free will, went > > > undercover on a Maquis ship (need I go on?) insecure??? I > > > have a very hard time believing that. > > > > That doesn't change the fact that he's not really that comfortable with > > all these humans and doesn't really know how to react to them. He *is* > > insecure. > > *snicker* yeah, right! If that was the case, he would have > never reentered into Starfleet or he would have chosen to > serve on an all-Vulcan ship. Why? He's willing to study humans, and curious about them, even though he doesn't understand them well > > > > > > <snip> > > > > I always thought the principle of Star Trek is that *differences* do not > > > > matter. That *despite* or even *because* of them people get along fine. > > > > Here I see that a Vulcan has to behave like a human in order to be > > > > accepted. That his differences are not respected and considered an > > > > enrichment, but that they make him somewhat inferior and that he has to > > > > "adapt" if he wants to be included in social events. > > > > > > If the differences in his case include keeping to himself > > > and letting no one near than he cannot complain or bemoan > > > that people don't seek him out on their own. When I know > > > that somebody is reserved and aloof, I will hesitate trying > > > to initiate first contect for fear of getting on that > > > person's nerves. > > > > That is a mistake. That person could just be shy. But if you don't > > approach him/her and give them the benefit of the doubt you'll never > > find out. And the shy person will not reach out to *you*. > > The person is too shy to reach out, I don't want to feel > unwelcome or rejected: same difference. Nobody is more right > or more wrong here, which is why you can't just lay the > blame to one side. a shy person can't easily overcome that shyness which is part of their personality. One must help them and reach out to them... > > <snip> > > > > > > > It > > > > > means he is more involved in the crew's activitites, because > > > > > he makes an effort to do so. > > > > > > > > by denying his heritage .... > > > > > > Nobody said or requested that, but if he wants (we don#t > > > know that he does) to mingle more with the crew than he has > > > to make an effort as well, not just the others. > > > > That's easier said than done. Ask Jup how easy it is for her to mingle > > with people. Ask RH how well he gets on with the girls at his school... > > Tuvok, too, is the outsider who's not really accepted. Making the first > > step is not easy for him. > > Jup and RH are Humans so to speak (if you must draw in RL), > Tuvok is a Vulcan! Being or not being an outsider is > irrelevant for him, and it would be illogical to display > such feelings as you claim he has. He doesn'T *display* those feelings, he acts on them. He notices that others consider him to be *different* and that they kind of fear him or don't enjoy themselves in his presence, so he keeps more to himself - also out of consideration for the others. <snip> > > > This is a highly illogical statement. I fail to see how an > > > efficient haircut can look stupid :o) > > > > I don'T know - but look at Vomit and then tell me he does *not* look > > stupid! :-) > > I wouldn't judge people, esp. Vulcans, by their haircut *eg* the haircut is just the last straw in Vomit's case... Julianna -------- Tuvok: The main reason to watch Voyager!